Jay Bormann Interview

TRACI DRUMMOND: This is Traci Drummond, archivist for the Labor Collections at Georgia State University Library. I am at the William W. Winpisinger Center for Education and Technology, in Hollywood, Maryland. And today I am here with Jay Bormann, to talk to him about his time with the Machinists. Today is December 8 -- Thursday, December 8th, 2011. Welcome, Jay.

JAY BORMANN: Well, thank you.

DRUMMOND: Uh I'm going to start with a little bit of background information about your -- your uh early life and your early years, and about your family. Uh can you tell me a little bit about your mom and dad and where they were from and what kind of work they did?

BORMANN: Uh my father was from New York, uh went to Oregon after World War II. My mother was from Oregon. Uh he worked in the wood industry, which was huge at the time in Oregon, finished out his career working for a -- a union plywood mill. And my mother worked for a newspaper. She was the circulation manager. And 00:01:00that's where I got my first involvement with labor unions, was my father's job.

DRUMMOND: OK. And your mom wasn't organized.

BORMANN: No.

DRUMMOND: No. OK.

BORMANN: Yeah, not the newspaper but --

DRUMMOND: OK. And do you have any brothers and sisters?

BORMANN: I have one sister, who's three years my senior.

DRUMMOND: OK. And your dad was in a labor union. Did you have grandparents in unions? What kind of work did your grandparents do?

BORMANN: My grandfather uh was a uh blacksmith by trade. He was a one-man company. Uh he had had logging -- and uh logging businesses uh back in the day when they logged with horses. Uh then he moved into trucking, uh until the war. Because, uh the war, there were rationing uh coupons for tires and gas and so forth, so it was very difficult to continue the transportation business uh.

DRUMMOND: And this was your mother's father.

BORMANN: Correct.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BORMANN: Uh that was the only living grandparent that I had. I had 00:02:00step-grandparents. Uh my father's mother was in New York. I only met her once. His father had died early.

DRUMMOND: OK. So uh your dad uh was in a woodworkers' union?

BORMANN: Yeah.

DRUMMOND: And was it a place that was a closed or open shop?

BORMANN: Oh, was definitely closed shop.

DRUMMOND: It was a closed shop. Everybody there was a union member.

BORMANN: Everybody.

DRUMMOND: And your dad enjoyed being a member of the union.

BORMANN: Oh, absolutely.

DRUMMOND: I mean, it was sort of a --

BORMANN: It was uh all about quality of life.

DRUMMOND: OK. And -- and what do you think it afforded him?

BORMANN: Well, uh we had healthcare. Uh he had -- he had a vacation every year. Uh he had a better wage than the nonunion uh mills around. You have to -- you have to understand that in -- where I lived, within a 50-mile radius there were 250 different wood products facilities, of all different sizes and shapes. And the one he worked in was the largest plywood mill under a single roof in the world, for a long time. So it was a huge facility, in a very small town. Uh so 00:03:00their income level was -- for the industry, was above average.

DRUMMOND: Uh how many people were in his shop? Do you know, about?

BORMANN: About 1,000.

DRUMMOND: About 1,000. OK. And so -- so the entire community, you said, for a 50-mile radius -- um or -- or the different cities, the different small communities were very much rooted in -- in the wood industry.

BORMANN: Oh, absolutely --

DRUMMOND: Mm.

BORMANN: -- the entire state.

DRUMMOND: And was it, in general -- ? Um because I know today uh Oregon's perhaps one of the more progressive states we have in the -- in the U.S. Was it uh a more progressive state? Was it very labor-friendly?

BORMANN: Well, you know, when you grow up in that environment --

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: -- you think everybody is the same. And -- and uh I don't know that we ever even considered something like that. It's just the way it was.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: Uh you know, there was uh -- uh the Lumber and Plywood Workers' Union 00:04:00is -- is the one he belonged to. And uh it was -- it was just kind of a given. Uh it was not a conscious thought until probably 30 years later, like when I was deeply involved in the labor movement -- that it even occurred to me that -- you know, was -- was our community union-friendly or not. Well, it had to be.

DRUMMOND: Right.

BORMANN: Because that's -- the -- the merchants could not be anti-union. They -- they'd be bankrupt.

DRUMMOND: Right.

BORMANN: It was a town of 6,000. You don't -- you don't turn your nose up at a 1,000 people that spend money in your store, in a small community. Not good business.

DRUMMOND: Right. OK. What was your -- what were your early school years like?

BORMANN: Just working --

DRUMMOND: Public school?

BORMANN: -- working -- Oh, yeah. Uh there was nothing else --

DRUMMOND: OK.

BORMANN: -- was just all public school uh.

DRUMMOND: And how old were you when you got your first job?

BORMANN: Oh, I was probably eight or nine, I guess.

DRUMMOND: What -- what were you uh -- ?

BORMANN: Just helping a guy clean his yard up.

DRUMMOND: OK, so just around-the-neighborhood kind of work.

BORMANN: Yes. Unh-huh.

DRUMMOND: OK. Um and going into high school, did you have summer jobs or --?

BORMANN: Oh, yeah, I always worked. Uh there was a lot of agriculture, rye grass --

DRUMMOND: OK.

BORMANN: -- uh for -- for lawn seed. Uh and then I worked in the mill with my father uh summers. I worked at the newspaper office for my mother.

DRUMMOND: OK. And g -- heading into uh -- or heading out of high school, sort of looking forward to what you would be doing after high school, what -- what were the expectations for you, military or college or get a job?

BORMANN: Uh well, I went to Oregon State University and a variety of other colleges. Uh I always wanted to go into the trade. And we had a very, very sophisticated high school shop system --

DRUMMOND: OK.

BORMANN: -- one of the best in the state. And uh I just gravitated that way. Uh I'd spend a lot of time in my grandfather's blacksmith shop. So I was familiar with the environment. And it's what I wanted to do. So uh at the 00:06:00time, uh the state employment office had a -- had a field office called Youth Opportunities.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: Uh and it was for people 18 to 26 or 28. I don't recall. And you could go and make your application for any of the craft apprenticeships. And they would assist you to get all your documents together and -- and let you know when the open periods were going to be for interviews and -- and so forth for the different apprenticeship programs. And it was geared primarily for vets returning from Vietnam that -- coming back into the workforce. Because they were still in their early 20s.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: Uh and for those of us coming out of school that wanted to go into the trades. So it was a -- it was a big deal to -- to be accepted for a -- an apprenticeship.

DRUMMOND: And your first apprenticeship was with --?

BORMANN: A company called Portland Ironworks uh.

DRUMMOND: 1969.

BORMANN: In 1969.

DRUMMOND: Is that the year you graduated from high school?

BORMANN: No, no. I graduated from high school in 1966.

DRUMMOND: OK. Uh tell me about -- Well, what did you do between '66 and '69?

BORMANN: Uh well, I had various jobs. I went to college, uh various schools around the state. Uh you know, it was kind of the lost years.

DRUMMOND: OK. So tell me about your apprenticeship with Portland Ironworks.

BORMANN: Uh it was a small, family-owned company. Uh there was about 50 employees there. It might get up to 60, 65 employees. Uh did a lot of subcontract work, uh a lot of repair work. They had a product line of their own.

DRUMMOND: What did they make?

BORMANN: They made lumber and sawmill equipment.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BORMANN: Yeah. That was under their own branding. Uh and then they did uh subcontract work for a company called Greater Pneumatics, which was later bought out by Beloit, of Beloit, Wisconsin, uh again, another wood products -- conveying company.

DRUMMOND: And how long were you at Portland Ironworks?

BORMANN: Well, I worked there three or four different times. I served my apprenticeship, uh it turned out, in 3 1/2 years, and -- and uh went off on the road to seek my fortune -- came back -- and uh went back and forth several times, which is the nature of --

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: -- apprentices, looking for a better opportunity and more money, whatever, you know.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm. When you -- when you -- you said you went off. Did you leave the state? Did it -- ?

BORMANN: No, no.

DRUMMOND: Was it time that you spent -- ?

BORMANN: Uh I stayed within the -- in the state, just went to other companies and --

DRUMMOND: OK.

BORMANN: -- you know, uh expanded my -- my skill range with different product lines and different -- different methods of manufacturing and repairing things.

DRUMMOND: Did you enjoy the work?

BORMANN: Oh, uh always --

DRUMMOND: Yeah?

BORMANN: -- absolutely. Yeah.

DRUMMOND: OK. OK. Uh and in 1978 -- And uh -- Well, while you were working during the years after your apprenticeship, were you ever in a union, in that point? Or had you -- ?

BORMANN: Always.

DRUMMOND: You were always --

BORMANN: Always in a --

DRUMMOND: OK, so tell me about your -- your uh -- So did you -- were you able to join the union after your apprenticeship?

BORMANN: Oh, no. No, no. Uh within the state of Oregon and within the machinists' union, you have 30 days from date of hire to join. And I was already accustomed to being in a union and uh I expected to be in the union.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: I purposely went to the Machinists for apprenticeship because uh part of the process was uh the interview committee was half employers, half union people. So, you know, uh I understood very clearly that I wanted to go to a union shop, where they had union benefits and -- and a pension and -- and so forth.

DRUMMOND: OK. So you wound up back at Reynolds uh Aluminum uh in 1978. And it -- and it looks like you stayed there for a good while, maybe seven years or so?

BORMANN: Actually, uh I went to work there in 1978. I got laid off a couple of times.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BORMANN: Uh during one of them I went -- I worked for Boeing for a couple years.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BORMANN: Uh but I actually worked for Reynolds until uh -- until they closed the plant. I had 23 years of seniority.

DRUMMOND: OK. And what were -- what was the -- do you remember the first job you were hired on to do there?

BORMANN: At Reynolds?

DRUMMOND: Yeah.

BORMANN: Uh it was inside maintenance machinist.

DRUMMOND: And what did that entail?

BORMANN: Uh just machine shop work. We -- they had their own repair facility for any of the equipment uh within the -- the plant. The plant was built during the war by the federal government, for the war effort. And on the Columbia River, which is the northern border of Oregon, there was uh seven aluminum plants and, I don't know, a dozen steel plants built because of the power grid. Uh after the war, they were sold to private industry. And that's how Reynolds bought that particular facility uh. It was uh -- the reason I went to work there was it 00:11:00was the highest-paid job in my local.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: Uh I'm a capitalist. So I wanted --

DRUMMOND: OK. (laughs)

BORMANN: -- I wanted to go where the money was.

DRUMMOND: OK, fair enough. Uh and then what other position did you hold? Did it -- did you move into other jobs while you were there?

BORMANN: Yes. Uh I eventually transferred uh over to uh the other side, to uh the millwright side, uh again went back to school and got uh numerous welding certifications, so I could work on that side. Uh and then later on I became a shift millwright. I worked independently, by myself, a rotating shift. Uh I was at -- on call from all the production sites around the plant. Uh the facility sat on about 100 acres.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: So it was a large geographic area. So, primary reduction is taking raw material and smeltering it into aluminum as you know it, uh aluminum ingots, 00:12:00which were turned into cans and other products.

DRUMMOND: OK. And you said there was a few years that you were laid off and you went to Boeing.

BORMANN: Yes. Just --

DRUMMOND: OK. And what did you do at Boeing?

BORMANN: I ran a uh multiple-spindle profile machine, three-axis profile machine, uh pretty much -- and conventional mills, pretty much the whole time I was there. Uh gave me the opportunity -- they have a -- a program where you can go back to college. And as long as you pass uh and your program is preauthorized, they'll pay your education. So I went back to school for another two years while I was working there.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: And that uh helped me later on.

DRUMMOND: OK. Did you uh -- was that also in Portland or around Portland?

BORMANN: Yes.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BORMANN: Yeah. [So we're -- before?] --

DRUMMOND: Uh so -- so you didn't leave town.

BORMANN: No.

DRUMMOND: You were -- you stayed at the -- in the same s -- in the same place. The union you joined when you started working at Reynolds was Local Lodge 63?

BORMANN: Yes.

DRUMMOND: OK. And you went back to Reynolds Aluminum in 1987.

BORMANN: Yes.

DRUMMOND: OK. And since you were a union member during all that time, for Local Lodge 63, what uh -- how long did it take you to get involved in and -- and start participating in the union?

BORMANN: Actually, it started when I was still at Portland Ironworks.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BORMANN: Uh but shortly after I -- I uh --

DRUMMOND: But it wasn't the same local. It was a d--

BORMANN: I was -- uh I've been in the same local since 1969.

DRUMMOND: OK. So it covered a couple o -- You had an amalgamated contr -- So it was --

BORMANN: Right. Uh --

DRUMMOND: -- an amalgamated local and it --

BORMANN: My local had probably 60 different shops --

DRUMMOND: OK.

BORMANN: -- under contract.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BORMANN: And I stayed -- I worked within that umbrella --

DRUMMOND: OK.

BORMANN: -- until I went to work for the International.

DRUMMOND: OK. So then, yes, tell me about your early activities with Local Lodge 63.

BORMANN: Uh the president of my local was a -- was a lead in the ship I worked 00:14:00in and we -- we were pretty good friends. Uh he was like my older brother, dad, uncle, whatever. And an issue had come up with apprenticeship. And I thought it was -- we had two people apply for apprenticeship. One was far superior to the other. Uh now, you have to have to understand that, until uh a federal -- federal uh lawsuit, there was age discrimination within the apprenticeship. Uh if you were over -- and I believe the age was like 28, uh you couldn't apply for apprenticeship. Uh and that was overturned in federal court -- or the Supreme Court. And we had the two oldest apprentices in our craft, in the state of Oregon, back to back. They both -- one was 48 and one was 49. And they were both extremely good mechanics and machinists. And one of them, when he went to his interview, went with a -- a younger fellow that had no credentials at all. 00:15:00And the younger guy was rated and the older guy wasn't rated. And it was age discrimination, even though that had been dismissed by the courts. And I was incensed by it. Because I worked with both these fellows. And uh it just wasn't fair. And I went to the president and I was complaining to him. And he said to me, and I'll clean this up as best I can, "Uh [don't?] -- "

DRUMMOND: You don't have to. You don't have to.

BORMANN: OK. Uh all right. Uh got all done and uh he said, "Well, brother, you've got two choices." He said, "You can get involved and change the system or you can just shut the fuck up and go back to work." And that was, neither one of those answers, what I was looking for. So I went back to my machine. And a couple days, I thought about it, thought about it. And I went to 00:16:00him and I said, "OK," uh you know uh, "I want to be involved. I want you to appoint me to the Apprenticeship Committee." And he said, "Well, the committee's full. I've used up all my appointments. But I'll make you an alternate. And as long as you go to the meetings, the next opening I'll appoint you full-time, until the governor gives you a permanent appointment." I said, "Fair enough." And I did. And one thing led to another and I became the shop steward and so forth.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BORMANN: But that was -- that was pretty much the -- the beginning. And that -- that's pretty atypical, you know, you get somebody that whines or -- or is unhappy and, you know, "Do you want to be a part of the solution or part of the problem?" Yeah. Uh wanted to be the solution, not the problem.

DRUMMOND: Uh what kind of grievances would you get in a shop like that?

BORMANN: Well, in that particular shop we had very few grievances. Uh --

DRUMMOND: Did you have a good relationship with management?

BORMANN: No, not -- with -- with our immediate supervisors, yes. With the owner, no. Uh because he was distant. You know, he didn't -- he didn't speak to you.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: Uh but with -- with uh people we directly worked for, we had a very good relationship, because they were all union. Uh the leads, uh the -- the foremen, as we called them, they were all union. And they were in our union. So if you had an issue, you could go talk to them. You know, you may not like the answer but you could talk to them. And we usually got it resolved. I -- we didn't have very many grievances at all -- uh until I got fired. That was -- I think that was the first grievance.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BORMANN: I got my job right back.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BORMANN: But uh at that facility, no, we di -- we didn't have a lot of labor issues.

DRUMMOND: Well, tell me about that. Why did you get fired?

BORMANN: Uh I wanted to take off at noon the day before Thanksgiving. And, uh 00:18:00you know, it was uh just testosterone or --

DRUMMOND: Yeah.

BORMANN: We b -- we both were digging our heels in and --

DRUMMOND: Yeah.

BORMANN: The guy that fired me, I ended up becoming pretty good friends with over the years --

DRUMMOND: Mm.

BORMANN: -- and still are to this day. And it was just a bad moment for both of us.

DRUMMOND: OK. So after shop steward you became chief steward.

BORMANN: Right. When I went --

DRUMMOND: And was --

BORMANN: When uh --

DRUMMOND: -- that for your shift?

BORMANN: No.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BORMANN: When I went to Reynolds uh Aluminum, uh it was a whole different environment and very adversarial -- very adversarial. And uh by that time, I had been through numerous uh different classes with the IAM. Uh Placid Harbor didn't exist. We would go from college to college and -- and we'd go to different leadership schools and so forth.

DRUMMOND: Mm.

BORMANN: And uh by the time I went to Reynolds, I -- I had quite a labor education. And I knew how to read a contract. I understood a contract. I had 00:19:00negotiated contracts. I'd been on the committee that negotiated contracts. So I wasn't afraid to read a contract and --

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: -- disagree with the decision that someone had made. And uh so I became a shop steward at Reynolds. And uh because it was so adversarial, they would go out of their way to make an example of the chief steward, uh whoever it was. And the stronger you were, the -- the more they would -- would uh target you. So we developed a program where the sh -- the steward in the area, because it was such a -- a big facility -- the steward in the area would not file a grievance. A steward from another area would file it. So they couldn't go directly at the shop steward in, say, the machine shop. They'd have to go to another one. Well, they weren't smart enough to connect the dots. And they couldn't -- they couldn't really uh do anything to somebody from another department 00:20:00that's filing a grievance. And we ha --

DRUMMOND: OK.

BORMANN: -- we had the right to do that. Uh nobody s -- nobody said, "You can only file a grievance in -- in this geographic area," this work -- work family, or whatever.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: And we would trade being chief steward. We'd only keep the job for a year and then we'd put a new guy in there. It kept them off balance.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: Uh plus we were able to read. And we would dissect a contract and we would use the contract and use the language of the contract. Because uh our -- our superintendents had never bothered to read it. They just used brute -- brute force.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: And Local 63 is a very, very old local. And it's a -- it's a very wealthy local. Uh and there's -- Do you want to know the reason why it's wealthy or -- ?

DRUMMOND: Yeah.

BORMANN: All right.

DRUMMOND: That would be great. Yeah.

BORMANN: In uh 1976, at the Grand Lodge Convention, they -- they changed the 00:21:00process by which uh you calculate our dues. But they left it to the option of the local whether they adopted that plan. My local decided to adopt that plan. And as a result, we have an automatic calculation once a year. The locals that did that are on pretty -- pretty good financial footing. Those that didn't, that have to go to the membership and vote an increase every year -- nobody -- nobody wants to spend more money for anything.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: I don't care if it's grocery, gas, union dues, whatever. So it's more difficult.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: And it tends to hold your revenue down. Well, if you can't afford an arbitration, which back in the day was $1,000 a day, you can't fight properly.

DRUMMOND: Right.

BORMANN: You know? You can -- you're a toothless tiger. Well, we had the money to do that. And we would do that. We didn't like to do it. We didn't like to 00:22:00spend the money. But if -- if provoked, we would. And the company knew we would. Uh we -- we uh defeated the company on -- uh on 13 grievances in a row because they did it procedurally wrong. Uh we tried telling them. "[Look?], you did this wrong. If you correct this, we can go forward." And they'd -- you know --

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: -- "We're the boss. You don't know anything." "OK, fine." Go to arbitration. Beat them 13 for 13. Well, it caused them to read the contract. And uh one of the -- one of the greatest uh compliments I ever got from my superintendent was he learned more about the labor agreement during my tenure than he had in the previous 30 years. Because it was never necessary that he read it.

DRUMMOND: Yeah.

BORMANN: He'd just bully his way through.

DRUMMOND: Uh --

BORMANN: Well, our generation was different.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: You know, we've -- we had a whole different outlook on things. We -- we'll fight you for it.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: You know, we -- we have the tools to fight. Plus we -- most of us that 00:23:00were stewards in that plant had been through the -- the education system --

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: -- of the machinists' union. Because we had the money to send people to school. So it was just a different environment. It was a different time.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm. And after um chief steward, you were on the Audit Committee.

BORMANN: During that same time period, I wa --

DRUMMOND: Same time?

BORMANN: -- I was active in the local and had uh been elected to a variety of different offices. I probably was uh on the Audit Committee of my local starting sometime -- I don't know -- probably in the mid-70s, uh '73, '74, somewhere in there. Uh and then I start going through the ranks, and became vice president of the local --

DRUMMOND: OK. What is the Audit Committee responsible for?

BORMANN: They oversee the finances. Uh there's a –- o -- the checks and balances of the financial side of the local. We have a -- a set of bylaws uh and a constitution uh and a variety of state and federal laws that regulate how we 00:24:00spend our money and -- and how we go about authorizing the expenditure of funds and so forth. And uh it was our job to take a look at each one of those -- those checks, see who it was written to, whether it was authorized by the membership, and uh if the accounts balanced and what was being reported was actually the truth.

DRUMMOND: Did y'all have a quarterly audit or a -- or a --

BORMANN: Semiannual.

DRUMMOND: Semiannual. OK. And you were a trustee for your local lodge.

BORMANN: Right.

DRUMMOND: And what is a trustee?

BORMANN: Trustee is actually uh much like an auditor, uh only o --

DRUMMOND: But it's -- but, I mean, you never went into trusteeship.

BORMANN: No, no, no.

DRUMMOND: Oh, this is different.

BORMANN: No.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BORMANN: Uh it is like one level above an auditor. Uh if there were eight auditors uh looking at the books, there'd be three trustees. And we would go further and we wou-- we would see things more off -- we'd see things on a 00:25:00monthly basis --

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: -- kind of in the interim. And we would make recommendations to the Audit Committee and interact with them also.

DRUMMOND: So would you say that you uh perhaps have a penchant for uh finances and attention to detail and -- ?

BORMANN: Absolutely.

DRUMMOND: OK, OK. Um local lodge vice president. You were elected?

BORMANN: Yes.

DRUMMOND: And you ran on a ticket?

BORMANN: Yes.

DRUMMOND: OK. And did y'all have any vicious races? Or was it pretty straightforward or -- ?

BORMANN: It was -- it was pretty straightforward, at that level. Uh you had uh -- you basically had a group of people that had -- had come through the ranks. And uh my local was a very old, very large local. Uh if you hadn't done your time, done volunteer work, you'd never get -- you'd never get the nod from the -- from the senior -- senior members. And without them, you couldn't be successful. They carried too many votes with them. And so, you know, you had to 00:26:00have a sponsor.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: You had to have somebody to recognize that you're willing to -- to put the time in and -- and to move the local forward.

DRUMMOND: Did you uh ever have any strikes when you were at Reynolds or before that?

BORMANN: I had one at Reynolds. It was a 12-day strike. Re --

DRUMMOND: A twel -- OK.

BORMANN: Reynolds Aluminum had -- was dominated by the steelworkers. All the production people were steelworkers. All the craft people belonged to the different crafts, the IBEW, Boilermakers, so forth. There were seven craft unions there. Steel would negotiate nationally within the aluminum industry. And they had a master agreement. And then we would meet to -- uh most of our contract, with the exception of the local issues. And we had uh -- we had a general foreman that just was difficult to get along with. And -- and it was 00:27:00about who was a -- who had the biggest boys, you know? And so we took a 12-day strike and uh --

DRUMMOND: Was it the whole plant or was it just the Machinists?

BORMANN: Just the machinists' union.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BORMANN: All the other crafts uh ratified their contract and went into work. And uh we said, "No," you know, "we're not going to do that." So they brought the head of HR from Richmond, Virginia, out and uh asked us to come back to the table, which we did. And uh it was somebody we had worked arbitrations and grievances with and, uh this particular individual, if he said he was going to do something or he agreed to something, it was done. His word was his bond. So we -- we met, the business agent, myself, and -- and uh the company. And they said, "We're -- we're not going to break the economic package of the National Steel agreement." "OK. We're not going to" -- and uh the 00:28:00economic packages, wages, hours, working conditions, to a point --

DRUMMOND: Mm.

BORMANN: -- anything that has money involved with it. "Well, if you're not interested in money, what are you interested in?" "Well, we're interested in that bastard sitting across the table that won't settle a grievance short of arbitration in the last three years." And I had a stack about a foot high. So --

DRUMMOND: You were that bastard.

BORMANN: He wa -- no --

DRUMMOND: No.

BORMANN: -- the general foreman was.

DRUMMOND: OK, OK.

BORMANN: And I sai -- and we told them, "If -- if we have a grievance through investigation, we file, and find out that it's incorrect, unfounded, whatever, we'll pull that grievance and throw it away. No problem. However, if the company realizes that they're wrong and doesn't want to settle a grievance and come to a remedy and they want to push it to arbitration, we're willing to do that but we both spend a lot of money doing it. And why is it the guy can't 00:29:00settle a grievance -- nor can the head of human resources settle a grievance --"

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: "-- at that level, short of arbitration? That's -- that's not -- not good labor relations."

DRUMMOND: No, no.

BORMANN: "And we want him gone. Because we're not going to put up with it anymore. And we're -- we're telling you, uh with a 12-day strike, we're not going to put up with it anymore. What are you going to do about it?" Well, they caucused and we could -- we went outside to have a smoke. We could hear them yelling at these people about it. And uh this particular guy hated to fly. And he had to fly out to Oregon in order to -- to deal with us -- and hated to fly.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: The last thing we could hear him scream was, "Don't make me come out here again." And he -- he gave us his word that, you know, we'd have a better relationship and -- and so we went back that night and voted to go back 00:30:00to work -- and did, you know. And it got a little better for a while. But uh that was our 12-day strike. We were -- had to come back to work to get some rest, we were so busy --

DRUMMOND: (laughs)

BORMANN: -- doing work around the house and so forth but -- uh it kind of set the tone. You know, we'd been telling him, you know, "We're not -- we're not going to put up with this. We don't have to. We're skilled craftsmen. We know our job. Don't talk to me like that and don't treat me that way."

DRUMMOND: What kind of support did you get from the other trades at the shop?

BORMANN: None.

DRUMMOND: None. They're --

BORMANN: But they di -- they didn't do anything for us but they didn't do anything to hurt us.

DRUMMOND: OK. So they just kept to themselves. Uh --

BORMANN: They stayed neutral. Now the steelworkers were great, because uh the production people are running equipment all the time, and if they happen to make a miscue and hit something or maybe the crane hook grabs something on one of the 00:31:00pots, where they're making aluminum and they're on the upswing and they damage it, then somebody has to come out and fix it. Well, that somebody happened to be a salaried foreman. And there were only like six of them. There were 100 of us.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: So six guys are trying to cover what 100 of us did. And uh at the end of 12 days, two of them were in the hospital. Uh one guy's knees were so bad, uh he couldn't walk. They would beg us to come back to work when they came in and out every day. They were working 16, 18 hours a day. And uh they were probably 15 to 20 years older than most of us were.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: So they were dying, you know --

DRUMMOND: And the steelworkers were sort of making this happen or -- ?

BORMANN: Well, they -- yes.

DRUMMOND: (laughs) OK. We won't name any names. Um but -- so -- so then it was just sort of, "We're not going to -- we're just going to keep doing our work -- "

BORMANN: Exactly.

DRUMMOND: " -- while you handle this."

BORMANN: Yeah.

DRUMMOND: OK. OK. Um -- did y'all get any strike benefits for those 12 days or was it so short -- ?

BORMANN: Oh, sure, sure.

DRUMMOND: OK. Did you get them from -- ? Because you said you have a -- had a very wealthy local. Did you get them from the local or International or both --

BORMANN: You know --

DRUMMOND: -- or a combination or -- ?

BORMANN: -- my local has a local lodge strike fund. Uh and I don't know if we were out long -- uh because I just don't remember what the -- what the uh regs were at the time, uh whether you started to accumulate after seven days or after 14. Uh I just don't remember. It seems to me we got -- we got some uh economic aid. But you have to remember that this facility was the highest-paid shop in my local. And we worked a ton of overtime.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: Uh in 1979, I broke $40,000 a year in income for the first time in my life. And -- and that was huge! In Oregon -- you know, uh I don't know where it was nationally but in Oregon that was -- I mean, uh our parking lot was 00:33:00Corvettes -- There was a Pantera and new four-wheel-drive pickups, drag boats, motor homes. I mean, we made so friggin' much money. Uh and $40,000 doesn't sound much today but in 1979 I guarantee you --

DRUMMOND: Yeah.

BORMANN: -- it was a lot of money.

DRUMMOND: Yeah. Interesting. So during the time that you are doing all of the work in your local, shop steward, chief steward, Audit Committee, trustee, vice president, you're also working with uh District 24, which is the district for your area. You're also doing -- are you concurrently doing work -- ?

BORMANN: Well, I was -- I had offices -- I was a -- a delegate to the District Council --

DRUMMOND: OK.

BORMANN: -- at that time. And I became an auditor on the district side also. Yeah.

DRUMMOND: OK. Can you talk a little bit about that work, like what that meant, 00:34:00to be -- ?

BORMANN: Uh well, the -- the district delegates was a -- a body of 30 or so delegates that, uh in the structure of our district, elected the directing business rep and the full-time secretary-treasurer. Uh they also w -- supported the business agents that handled all the negotiations, contracts, and so forth within -- within our organization. We had eight locals within the district. We covered the entire state of Oregon and southwest Washington, with some exceptions. Uh there were a couple independent locals. And we didn't cover the air transport, the airports.

DRUMMOND: Mm.

BORMANN: Uh but the rest -- excuse me -- the rest of the state, you know, was uh our jurisdiction. So with eight locals, we had business agents all over the place.

DRUMMOND: And you went on to be president uh and full-time secretary-treasurer 00:35:00of the district, as well.

BORMANN: I was the president for uh -- I believe it was six years. And uh a fellow that was the secretary-treasurer had been my lead --

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: -- that told me to shut up and go back to work or get involved --

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: -- uh some years prior. And he had become uh the second secretary-treasurer of our district. And again, he was a very good friend of mine. He called me one day and he said he was going to retire and he thought I'd be the candidate he would support. So uh I began the process of going around to the different locals trying to get their endorsement. There was another person that ran for the job. And uh my friend was going to uh -- going to retire midterm, so I'd fill his unexpired term and I'd have to run two 00:36:00years later -- uh which I did. Uh --

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm. Uh and was that -- ? When you -- when you became president, how many terms did you serve as president, for District --

BORMANN: Uh two.

DRUMMOND: -- 24? And was that when you left the shop floor?

BORMANN: No.

DRUMMOND: No. Y --

BORMANN: No, I was still in the shop uh.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BORMANN: That was just a part-time job.

DRUMMOND: OK. And then uh what about full-time secretary-treasurer? Is that when you left the shop floor?

BORMANN: Right --

DRUMMOND: OK.

BORMANN: -- in 1988.

DRUMMOND: 1988. OK. Uh and what was it like for the first time to be away from the shop floor? Because you really enjoyed the work and you had been --

BORMANN: Right.

DRUMMOND: -- doing it for 20 years or so.

BORMANN: Correct. Uh it's uh -- you can be in a f -- in a position where you're on the edge and see the environment and be very engulfed in it. But when you're the person in the chair and you have to make the decision, it's quite a bit different than you --

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: -- think it is. So it was -- it was a real shock. Uh it wasn't nearly 00:37:00as easy as uh -- as Raymond made it look. Uh but again, he was a very good friend of mine and he just lived 60 blocks up the boulevard from where our office was. So, you know, I could give him a call or go have lunch with him and -- and pick his brain, just on a moment's notice.

DRUMMOND: Mm.

BORMANN: He had been in a wheelchair for quite some time and -- so he wasn't going to be out on the golf course or anything. And uh it was a -- he was a great resource. Uh only problem was, 21 days later he died. So the learning curve was vertical, you know.

DRUMMOND: Mm.

BORMANN: All of a sudden -- the onl -- uh the only resource that I really had was the guy I beat for the job. That wasn't an option.

DRUMMOND: Right.

BORMANN: Uh so --

DRUMMOND: So he was somebody who had more -- perhaps more experience than --

BORMANN: Well, he came from the other big local --

DRUMMOND: OK.

BORMANN: -- and he was the financial secretary at his local.

DRUMMOND: OK. OK.

BORMANN: And uh -- but, you know, I wasn't about to ask him.

DRUMMOND: Yeah.

BORMANN: I mean, that's just the politics of being a guy.

DRUMMOND: Right!

BORMANN: Uh you know --

DRUMMOND: Uh yeah.

BORMANN: You know --

DRUMMOND: Yeah.

BORMANN: -- you don't go ask the guy you beat.

DRUMMOND: Yeah. So and it sounds -- Raymond, what was Raymond's last name?

BORMANN: Thompson.

DRUMMOND: Thompson. Uh so it sounds like he was um a real mentor to you and --

BORMANN: Yeah, he was.

DRUMMOND: -- somebody you --

BORMANN: He was.

DRUMMOND: -- you could go to. And that must have been hard, when he passed away.

BORMANN: Very hard.

DRUMMOND: Um so how long were you full-time secretary-treasurer for District 24?

BORMANN: Three years.

DRUMMOND: Three years.

BORMANN: Thr --

DRUMMOND: That's one term. Or you --

BORMANN: 3 1/2 years.

DRUMMOND: 3 1/2 years.

BORMANN: Uh I finished his unexpired two-year term.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: I did two years of his unexpired term. And then I ran for reelection. And I put a year-and-a-half in and uh -- and I got an appointment as an auditor --

DRUMMOND: OK.

BORMANN: -- under Tom Docey.

DRUMMOND: OK. And up to this point, you had stayed pretty uh local. You were in 00:39:00the state you grew up in.

BORMANN: Yes.

DRUMMOND: You had always been there. It was very familiar. And then you uh were asked to leave, uh I guess, and come to International. Did you lo -- relocate to D.C. at that time?

BORMANN: No. I relocated to Memphis, Tennessee.

DRUMMOND: OK. So you were in foreign territory. You --

BORMANN: No.

DRUMMOND: No.

BORMANN: Within the auditors, within the General Secretary-Treasurer's department, there's auditing zones.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BORMANN: And they change.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BORMANN: You know, it ebbs and flows with the membership. Uh I had -- I originally started out with -- Tennessee, Arkans-- uh Arkansas, Alabama, and Mississippi were the four states that I covered.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: Uh I had one -- one uh local lodge in the panhandle of Florida. And that was -- that was my assignment, uh had to oversee -- uh at the time, there were like 125 locals, districts, and state councils within those four states. 00:40:00That was my responsibility, to oversee the -- the financial side of their locals.

DRUMMOND: And what was it like? It must have been a big shock moving from Oregon to Tennessee.

BORMANN: Well, by the time uh I went to work for the General Secretary-Treasurer, uh I'd been pretty involved in the organization. I traveled a lot --

DRUMMOND: You di --

BORMANN: -- uh to different things --

DRUMMOND: OK.

BORMANN: -- to national planning, to the Grand Lodge Conventions. Uh I traveled with -- because I worked for Reynolds Aluminum and there was a national contract, that was the centerpiece of what our negotiation was, we would have coordinated bargaining between -- there were seven facilities around the Richmond area. There was a big facility in -- in Chicago. So we would meet different places around the country and talk about the -- our industry and our 00:41:00-- our employer. So I had traveled a lot. I had spent some time in Tennessee and I'd spent time in the South. And my mother lived in Florida. So uh I wasn't -- it wasn't like I'd never been there.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BORMANN: And I had friends there. So it wasn't -- it wasn't that different.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: Uh and I understood, because of my travels, uh the cultural difference between the North and the South. But uh Oregon wasn't involved in the Civil War, so I had a pretty good edge. (laughs)

DRUMMOND: Well! Um so you moved to Memphis. That was sort of your main location in that -- in that zone. Um did your family come with -- ? Because by that time you were married, maybe had kids.

BORMANN: Oh, my children are -- were married by then.

DRUMMOND: OK. So uh -- so they were married and living on their own. Did your wife come with you or did she -- ?

BORMANN: Yeah.

DRUMMOND: She did? She did?

BORMANN: Yeah.

DRUMMOND: OK. And uh what was it like doing that work?

BORMANN: Well, it's, you know --

DRUMMOND: Because you had been so closely involved with the same group of --

BORMANN: Right.

DRUMMOND: -- you know, people for so long and then --

BORMANN: Uh I enjoyed it, because it was numbers. And -- and numbers don't lie. People lie. Uh so it was very easy. Because uh I excelled at math and -- and I went to college to be a CPA and so forth. So, you know, doing -- doing the accounting work was really, really easy for me and I enjoyed it tremendously. Uh and, you know, you just treat people the way you want to be treated and they'll generally respond to you.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: Uh and you just have to understand the politics of the region. And there are some little nuances that you have to pay attention to. Like you never ever, ever, ever make an appointment for a Sunday -- or Wednesday night. And if 00:43:00you're not from that region, you don't even know what -- what the connotation of Wednesday night is.

DRUMMOND: Right.

BORMANN: But that's prayer meeting.

DRUMMOND: Yeah.

BORMANN: And that's -- that's an important part of the week.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: Uh and people in tha -- in that part of the country uh are not quite as outspoken as other parts of the country. They're a little bit more reserved. And they would not say to you straight out, "No, I'm not going to meet you, because I'm going to church on Wednesday night." They just wouldn't show up. Uh but conversely, if you respected, without saying that, "I know -- I suspect that you're going to be at choir practice or at church on Wednesday night," and you gave them the option of, "Listen, I'm -- uh I'm committed on Wednesday but uh would Tuesday or Thursday work for you?" they know instinctively that you're uh understanding their situation --

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: -- or what -- their life and their -- their family's life. And, you know, it's -- is -- it's not talked -- Uh nobody ever really said to me uh, "You know, I appreciate you not pushing me to meet you on Wednesday night" --

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: -- but they acknowledged it in other ways and -- so it was easy for me. Because I -- I'm a student of people. And I -- I watch them and observe them and -- I give people a tremendous amount of respect until they prove to me they don't deserve it. And then we do it another way. But -- so in that region of the country, that works pretty well. And I wasn't a Yankee so --

DRUMMOND: (laughs)

BORMANN: They couldn't figure out what I was.

DRUMMOND: You weren't a carpetbagger.

BORMANN: No.

DRUMMOND: Um well, so -- so it's numbers. You say numbers don't lie. And -- and in that position, uh there must have been times when you had to go in and put a local into trusteeship or -- or had to go and kick an officer out because --

BORMANN: Well, an auditor really never does that.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BORMANN: They -- you make a recommendation.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BORMANN: Uh and it goes through the chain of command. Uh you -- you're an information gatherer. Uh if you find that a crime has occurred, uh you know, obviously you don't write a letter. You pick up the phone. Uh and you don't -- you don't jump to conclusions. Uh if you can't -- if you can't prove your accusation --

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: -- two or three different ways, you don't make it.

DRUMMOND: Right.

BORMANN: Uh because you're -- you know, you're talking about some pretty serious business. You're talking about federal agencies that have -- that, uh their credential may say the Department of Labor but, if you look at it, they're a subset of the Justice Department. And they're no one -- the Justice Department's no one to trifle with.

DRUMMOND: Right, right.

BORMANN: So you want to be absolutely certain before you turn somebody's life upside down that you're right, which may take you quite some time, to gather enough to put you in your comfort zone.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm. Did you ever show up somewhere to do auditing and people just acted weird and you kind of figured out right away that something was going on?

BORMANN: Well, just the very nature of the fact that you -- you show up to audit somebody puts them on edge.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: And the first thing you have to do is, you know, calm them down and -- and explain, "Listen, we're par -- I'm part of the checks and balances." Uh and I had a -- I had a pretty simple little speech I'd give them Uh there's three people that can come and look at your -- your work. One's the Internal Revenue Service, which nobody likes. Everybody understands. Uh you say the word "IRS" and everybody cringes. The second's the Labor Department, which we're chartered under. They put people in jail. And the third is me. And 00:47:00I have a union card, just like you do, and I come from the shop, just like you do. I've done this job, just like you do. So who do you think's going to give -- be the best person to talk to of those three, me or them? Uh you're going to make mistakes. I know this because I was you once and I made mistakes. I can fix them. The only one I can't fix is if you're a thief, which case you're looking at your worst nightmare. Short of that, I'm your best friend. And that would -- that would generally calm people down.

DRUMMOND: Unless they were thieves. (laughs)

BORMANN: And you can -- if you -- if you study people's eyes and, you know, you have a basic understanding of what makes people tick, you can -- you can get a sense. Uh women are a little tougher to read, sometimes. Uh the guys are 00:48:00pretty easy. They're -- they're real easy.

DRUMMOND: Uh how long were you auditor?

BORMANN: Eight years.

DRUMMOND: And you started in '88. Then you ended in '96.

BORMANN: No, I started in '91.

DRUMMOND: In '91, and went to '99.

BORMANN: Yes.

DRUMMOND: OK. And then you were -- oh! And then you retired.

BORMANN: No. Then I was appointed director of Guide Dogs of America --

DRUMMOND: OK.

BORMANN: -- until 2009.

DRUMMOND: OK. So for ten years you were --

BORMANN: Mm-hmm.

DRUMMOND: My apologies for getting the dates mixed up.

BORMANN: No worries.

DRUMMOND: And uh -- and so tell me about being -- uh working with Guide Dogs of America. Did that get you back to Portland or di-- ?

BORMANN: No.

DRUMMOND: No. Where did that take you?

BORMANN: Southern California.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BORMANN: Uh International President Buffenbarger uh called me and uh approached 00:49:00me with a job. Uh and it's kind of bizarre, because, A, I don't know anything about dogs and I don't like dogs. I'm a cat guy. Yeah. I really had no expectation of what he wanted me to do. Uh my job as an auditor, I had done uh a lot of disbandments and mergers and uh chartering of locals. So between the time that I originally got a call from him and we were able to sit down was three or four weeks. And it gives you a bit of time to contemplate what -- what you think's going on. And I -- I knew the -- the organization was financially in trouble.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: It had been for a long time. And --

DRUMMOND: Guide Dog, specifically.

BORMANN: Yes.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BORMANN: So I thought perhaps what he wanted -- because I'd been assigned to a big merger out in California a couple years before that. And I spent months out there.

DRUMMOND: Under -- as auditor?

BORMANN: Mm-hmm.

DRUMMOND: OK. And a big merger of districts?

BORMANN: Yes.

DRUMMOND: Which ones?

BORMANN: Uh well, it was 727, uh 720 -- I don't remember all of them. But it ended up being District 725.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BORMANN: It's all aerospace. It's from --

DRUMMOND: OK.

BORMANN: -- all over Southern California. So I thought perhaps what he wanted me to do was go out and shut this place down and liquidate. I mean, because there were so many assets and so much property and everything. It was going to be drawn out and ugly and uh time-consuming. So I -- while I -- having this time to think, in between our meetings, perhaps this is what he wants me to do, because this is kind of what I've been doing -- I got pretty good at it. So when we finally did meet again, I says, "What do you -- ? You have to understand. I 00:51:00don't know anything about dogs. I don't like dogs. Uh and you're asking me to go out and run this dog school. Uh what is it you want me to do? You want me to s-- you know, close the place down and liquidate everything?" And he just sat straight up, said, "Well, no!" you know. And he gave me this litany of things he wanted me to do. And what he wanted me to do was grow the organization. And I -- my eyes probably looked just uh like yours just did and -- "So OK." And he had this shopping list of things. And at the very end he said, "Oh, and there's one other thing." And I said, "Yeah. What's that?" He said, "Don't ask me for any money, because I'm not going to give it to you. Figure out how you're going to go out and raise money." And I'd done fundraising for MNPL, the Machinists Non-Partisan League, and a variety of other things, for quite some time. And so, yeah. And I l -- I like taking money from people. So I said, "OK." I uh -- you know, there were some 00:52:00other conditions that uh I felt I needed to have, and to feel comfortable. And he was agreeable to everything but one, which was I wanted more money. And he said, "No. This is what the job pays and this is what I'm prepared to pay you." "OK." And the rest is pretty much history. I -- you know, I --

DRUMMOND: What were some of the biggest challenges?

BORMANN: Uh personnel. You know, historically what happens is, when there's a change at the top, 40% of the people will be gone within the next 365 days. They don't like you. You don't like them. You agree you don't like each other. "Uh I'm old school. You're new school. I don't like your philosophy." Whatever. 40% are going to be gone. Statistically, it's accurate. Uh so in the 00:53:00first week or two, I had like three people leave or -- or ask to leave. And uh so I had to backfill those spots. And, you know, the -- the new guy is always going to get everybody's wish list. Everybody that was afraid to go the previous guy or got sh-- got told no is now going to take another run at the new guy, because he don't know. So the learning curve's pretty severe. And, uh you know, it's your responsibility to raise enough money to uh support 35 families -- yeah -- and make sure they've got decent healthcare, uh their paycheck's good, the lights are turned on, there's water, so forth. Uh every two weeks, when it was time to write the paychecks and pay the bills, you know, it was six figures. Uh didn't have a lot of money in the bank. So, you know, there's a tremendous amount of pressure to go out and raise some money now, not next week, now.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

BORMANN: And uh --

DRUMMOND: And how would you raise money?

BORMANN: Oh, we had events all over the country. Different locals and districts put on events. And we were involved with United Way and the -- are you f-- ? You're familiar with the CFC?

DRUMMOND: CFC.

BORMANN: Combined Federal Campaign. It's like the United Way, on a federal enclave.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BORMANN: Uh and we just -- you know, numerous --

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: -- events and --

DRUMMOND: Good response?

BORMANN: Yes, very -- very good. And plus I -- because I've been around so long, I had a lot of friends in different -- different industries.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: And I leaned on them to start payroll deductions at their facilities and -- because payroll deduction, people tend never to come off once they go on.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: You get a dollar a pay from somebody. I mean, if you -- and -- and you have to be a numbers person to really appreciate this. But if you have 100,000 people and -- we used to use the context of a cup of coffee --

DRUMMOND: Right.

BORMANN: -- and when coffee was a quarter in the vending machine. If you can get 00:55:00people to give you a -- a cup of coffee every pay period and you get 100,000 of them to do it and you get 26 pay periods, do the math.

DRUMMOND: Yeah.

BORMANN: That's --

DRUMMOND: Tremendous.

BORMANN: -- tremendous. And all it costs you is a cup of coffee. Well, then I had a -- the -- the first female president of my local, which was over 100 years old, came up with one that I've u-- I used from that point on.

DRUMMOND: Mm.

BORMANN: She says -- because Boeing had a beautiful cafeteria system and they had cappuccino and lattés and everything -- says, "No, no. You've got to -- you've got to upgrade that to a cappuccino or a latté."

DRUMMOND: $5 a paycheck.

BORMANN: No. Because Boeing controls the -- they had price control in the cafeteria --

DRUMMOND: Uh --

BORMANN: -- so it was only like a buck-and-a-half.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BORMANN: So if you get a buck-and-a-half out of 100,000 people 26 times a year, you know, do the math, you know.

DRUMMOND: Yeah.

BORMANN: It keeps you -- keeps you solvent pretty fast. So uh we were f -- 00:56:00really fortunate to have people, the rank and file membership --

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: -- go out and do just a phenomenal job, and -- and get different -- different programs going, different events going and -- So we were able to increase the revenue and, you know --

DRUMMOND: Mm.

BORMANN: -- enhance the -- the uh contracts for the people to work there. Because in Southern California, the cost of living's just out of sight. And most of the people that work there, you know, they're -- they're professionals but they're dog people. And they love their job and they love the industry. They -- I don't know how they could afford to live there.

DRUMMOND: Right.

BORMANN: Uh I really didn't.

DRUMMOND: Right.

BORMANN: So, you know, we tried to get some -- some civility to the contract and so forth. Costs money. Yeah.

DRUMMOND: Well -- and uh -- and not asking this to point fingers -- was the last person in charge just out of ideas or --?

BORMANN: Oh, you run out of -- I ran out of ideas.

DRUMMOND: OK. OK.

BORMANN: It's -- it's the natural progression of things. You o-- your bag of 00:57:00tricks only has so many in it. And eventually you're going to hit the bottom.

DRUMMOND: And I think that kind of work you can only sustain for so long anyway.

BORMANN: Oh, I'm telling you. It's -- it's a grind. Uh I would spend 150 to 175 nights a year in hotels. I crisscrossed uh --

DRUMMOND: So that was the first time you had to travel without your wife.

BORMANN: No. No.

DRUMMOND: No?

BORMANN: I was a field auditor and --

DRUMMOND: OK.

BORMANN: -- I covered four states for eight years.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BORMANN: My wife, she -- she burned out after about six months --

DRUMMOND: Right. Yeah.

BORMANN: -- you know. She just didn't want to stay in motels all the time and so forth. But, no, uh I'd -- you know, I was on the road --

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: -- when I was an auditor, as much or more. Uh but I was driving.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: And I cou -- I could get home when I wanted to get home. Uh with -- with this job, most events are on the weekends, so your weekends are gone. You don't have weekends.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: Because you're going to be in New York or Boston or Florida or uh wherever. And when you're not there, you still have a facility to run.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm. Well, tell me about the facility. Like what did it consist of? What happened on the day-to-day at the facility?

BORMANN: Well, uh the facility is 7 1/2 acres, in Sylmar, California, which is Los Angeles County. Uh we have a Breeding Department there. Uh we breed and raise our own dogs. Uh we have training staff that -- that trains the dogs.

DRUMMOND: What kind of dogs?

BORMANN: Predominantly they're uh Labrador retrievers. They go to a puppy raiser at about eight weeks, eight to ten weeks, stay with them. And they get basic obedience and go through all the -- all the trai -- basic training. Uh and they're evaluated constantly, both -- both mentally and physically. They -- they have a better healthcare system than you have. Uh they -- they get x -- their skeletal system totally x-rayed uh as they grow -- uh their respiratory system, everything. And if there's a glitch in any of the bloodline, any of 00:59:00the -- any of the litter, chances are pretty good that that phenomenon is going to transcend the -- the entire litter. So you have to scrap them and -- because they're -- You can't have a deficient dog.

DRUMMOND: No.

BORMANN: There's -- there's too much at stake and there's too much emotional uh damage if -- if the dog breaks down with a -- with a blind person, a sight-impaired person. So we have our own Training Department there. And they -- once the puppies come back from the puppy raisers at 18 to 24 months, they begin their formal training. Uh there's a dormitory system there for uh students when they come in. Under California state law, they have to be a resident for twenty fo-- for four weeks, 28 days. So we have a dormitory, a full kitchen staff, housing staff. And it's totally free to the end user, from the time they walk out their front door until they get home, their airline 01:00:00ticket, travel. The only thing you could spend money on when you come out there is if you wanted to go to the mall and buy, you know --

DRUMMOND: Mm.

BORMANN: -- a shirt or something. Other than that it's totally paid for --

DRUMMOND: OK.

BORMANN: -- free.

DRUMMOND: And it's o -- and it's for people across the United States, to get a dog --

BORMANN: And Canada.

DRUMMOND: -- and Canada, to get a dog.

BORMANN: Yeah.

DRUMMOND: About how many dogs do y'all train a year?

BORMANN: Fifty a year.

DRUMMOND: Fifty a year.

BORMANN: Mm-hmm.

DRUMMOND: And so they go to 50 homes. And for the dogs that are sickly and maybe you have to stop the bloodline or -- or whatever, hopefully you'll send those to, and a -- uh an animal adoption -- ?

BORMANN: Oh, we have our o -- there's a seven-year waiting list.

DRUMMOND: Oh, OK. OK.

BORMANN: And -- and in addition, uh dogs that don't make the program, for -- for a variety of reasons, that are good working dogs, we have uh 20-plus different uh state, city, and county agencies that utilize those dogs for uh drug intervention, uh schools, checking for weapons and -- and locked guns, 01:01:00predominantly --

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: -- cadaver dogs. Uh we had one that was -- uh at San Ysidro that would stop drugs and uh contraband animals and birds they had smuggled across the border. Uh when that dog was on site -- they -- they'd view it from the hills with binoculars. If the dog was on site, they wouldn't even attempt a border crossing --

DRUMMOND: Really?

BORMANN: -- because the dog was that good. Oh, yeah. Uh we have one that's an antiterrorist dog at LAX. Uh there's uh dogs -- arson dogs, that, uh believe it or not, are certified to uh -- if -- if they find an accelerant uh with their nose, it's -- they're certified by the state and by the court system as an expert witness and their -- their testimony, if you will, is --

DRUMMOND: Wow! That's fascinating!

BORMANN: -- uh admissible in court, uh because they're so sensitive. And they'll go right to an accelerant. You -- you spray a lighter fluid over in 01:02:00the corner, down on that boat that went up, they'll find it.

DRUMMOND: Mm.

BORMANN: Uh so, you know, we would interact with these different agencies and -- and ah so we always had police cars in and out. We had a lot of -- lot of volunteers that were police and firemen and women.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: So, you know, on any given day you could -- you could see just about any jurisdiction of law enforcement or fire at the facility uh.

DRUMMOND: So half your year -- year was spent traveling and the other half of the year pretty much was spent --

BORMANN: Yeah, it was probably sixty forty.

DRUMMOND: Sixty-forty on the road?

BORMANN: Yeah.

DRUMMOND: OK. Uh do you -- did you like dogs more at the end of your ten years?

BORMANN: No.

DRUMMOND: No?

BORMANN: No. And I -- I would tell people. And I never made a secret of the fact that I wasn't fond of dogs. I said, "Look, this facility is about people, enhancing the quality of life of people. We just happen to use dogs to do it" 01:03:00-- OK? -- "If you're a dog person, God bless you. Because we couldn't do this without the puppy raisers and the people that are passionate -- "

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: " -- about dogs. I'm just not one of them." Now am I going to kick a dog when I walk by it? No. But I'm not emotionally attached. Now, my wife has a dog, that just drives me nuts.

DRUMMOND: What kind of dog does she have?

BORMANN: It's a golden retriever. You know, when the dog wants to go out in the morning, won't wake her up. It wakes me up.

DRUMMOND: (laughs) Because it knows you hate it.

BORMANN: I guess. I don't know.

DRUMMOND: OK. Um let me get back to a few things that uh -- that uh we ha -- we didn't cover talking about your work history. Back to uh your work with the uh AFL-CIO, Oregon state, and uh the -- the Multnomah's County Central uh --

BORMANN: Labor Council?

DRUMMOND: -- Labor Council, what kind of uh work would you do as a part of those organizations?

BORMANN: Well, you know, the Central Labor Council, by nature, is -- is politically active within the -- within the jurisdiction that they have. And since we had city and county employees uh under contract, that worked in the city shop and so forth, uh we -- we had a vested interest in -- in who the commissioners were.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: Uh you know, you wanted to have a friend in court, so to speak. So, you know, we were politically active. The Central Labor Council was always politically active, uh as was the AFL-CIO. And the AFL-CIO had a lot of different tentacles, doing a lot of different things, but basically politics. Uh at the time, that's what I was working in, is politics. It's -- uh I got the opportunity to work -- on a senior Republican senator's campaign for the machinists' union.

DRUMMOND: A senior Republican senator's campaign --

BORMANN: Mm.

DRUMMOND: -- for the machinists' un -- tell me a little bit about that!

BORMANN: Uh say --

DRUMMOND: A Republican in Oregon, first of all --

BORMANN: Yes.

DRUMMOND: -- is kind of exciting enough, but then that he was pro-labor -- or pro-- yeah, pro-labor.

BORMANN: He wa -- he was pro-Oregon.

DRUMMOND: Pro-Oregon. OK.

BORMANN: He had been the governor. His name was Mark Hatfield. He had been the governor. He was an extremely handsome man, extremely uh -- women loved him. Uh he had a photographic memory. If he met you and he heard your spouse's name, your children's name, 15 years later he would say, "How is Harold and your daughter Jane and your son? They must be -- let's see. They were four when I met you. -- " Phenomenal. I went on uh tours with him through Boeing. And uh I thought somebody was feeding him information. But he was uh that sharp. Uh but he was good for Oregon. I lobbied him uh 11 or 12 times, uh personally, out of 01:06:00that 11 and 12 --

DRUMMOND: (laughs)

BORMANN: -- all but one, uh in his office in D.C. He had uh a 60% voting record -- COPE voting record. But what he told you, he never deviated. Because I would track his votes based on our conversation. I'd go in. I'd have ten or 12 items I wanted to lobby him on. He'd give me an answer on every one of them and why. And I'd write it down. He never missed on a vote that I lobbied him over, ever. And I just res -- He was well respected in the state. Uh he got a lot of works programs. If -- have you ever been to Portland?

DRUMMOND: I've never been that far West. No.

BORMANN: OK. Portland has a tremendous trolley system. And he was instrumental in getting the federal matching funds for -- for the original line that was put in. And then they expanded after that. It functions very, very well. It revitalized the downtown. Because who wants to go downtown with all the parking 01:07:00problem? But if you can leave it at a satellite, jump on the trolley and it'll ha -- drop you right in the center of downtown -- they have a Fareless Square. You can go to dinner. You can go shopping. You can have a couple cocktails. By the time you get back to your car, you're no longer a menace to yourself or society. It's a great -- and uh it's reasonable. It's like a buck-and-a-quarter, buck-and-a-half -- whatever. He brought those jobs in. And they were all done union, uh Davis-Bacon. You know, they were all done union, uh with the -- with the exception of one small little segment of a highway expansion to get room for -- and he was good for the working people in the state of Oregon. Republican, Independent, you know, polka dot, it didn't matter.

DRUMMOND: Mm.

BORMANN: He was just a guy that -- uh that brought things back to the state of Oregon for the people that -- that he represented. And uh phenomenal guy.

DRUMMOND: Uh you also were active with -- well, what -- what did you do with the -- the uh state uh AFL-CIO? Was it similar?

BORMANN: Very similar, yeah --

DRUMMOND: OK.

BORMANN: -- just on the state level.

DRUMMOND: So uh -- so it sounds like numbers is your main job and then politics is the --

BORMANN: Well, I -- I g --

DRUMMOND: -- the thing that you enjoy and that sort of --

BORMANN: I did.

DRUMMOND: Uh yeah.

BORMANN: Because uh that's what was -- uh was available, you know.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: It was uh -- I got to know some -- some folks through uh MNPL and just got involved. They'd call. Especially when I went to the district -- I was -- I was uh secretary of the S-- the uh State Machinists Council and that's a political arm. So if we wanted to request funds for a candidate, I was the go-to guy. So I was immersed in politics, whether I wanted to be or not.

DRUMMOND: And um you also helped with the Grand Lodge Conventions. And part of that work maybe was your -- your time as auditor.

BORMANN: Yes.

DRUMMOND: Uh but then before that you were also involved, to a certain degree. What -- ?

BORMANN: I was just a delegate for the --

DRUMMOND: A delegate.

BORMANN: Right.

DRUMMOND: And -- and what is the role of the delegate at a convention?

BORMANN: Uh the -- the role of the delegate is -- is to determine the -- the future uh working -- work rules, if you will, the co-- our constitution for the organization for the next four years. That's where we modify the constitution. And if we're going to make changes, whatever they might be, that's where it's done. That's -- that who -- that's who does it. And it's rank and file. Uh none of the International staff can be delegates. Uh obviously the International president runs the meeting but -- runs the convention but uh the -- the rank and file membership have all the votes and determine what the direction's going to be.

DRUMMOND: And who picks the delegates, your local or -- ? OK.

BORMANN: Uh the local membership votes on them.

DRUMMOND: OK. And uh are there people's names who come up a lot because 01:10:00they're considered leaders in the -- in the local? I mean, were you holding an office at the same time but you were still -- ?

BORMANN: Oh, yeah.

DRUMMOND: But you were still from the local.

BORMANN: Oh, yeah.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BORMANN: Yeah. Even -- even uh when I was uh district ST, uh I was a delegate to the '88 convention in Atlanta. But everything comes out of the local. It doesn't matter what your position is, whether you work for the local, the district, uh state council, or whatever. The local is -- is where you come from. That's the entity that -- that has the wherewithal to credential your -- your delegates to the grand lodge convention.

DRUMMOND: Mm. And that reminds me that you were also um active with the uh Oregon -- was there -- ? Well, the Oregon uh apprenticeship program.

BORMANN: Yes?

DRUMMOND: Uh but then was there an Oregon um State Machinists Council?

BORMANN: Yeah.

DRUMMOND: And I suspect you were also active with that uh.

BORMANN: Yes. I was the secretary of that, also --

DRUMMOND: OK.

BORMANN: -- at one time.

DRUMMOND: At one time? OK.

BORMANN: And that's the political arm of uh the machinists' union. Uh the -- there's regulations that dictate that uh you can't spend local or district funds, dues dollars, on politics. So you have to have another entity. And that was the entity we did it with.

DRUMMOND: OK. OK. So some -- so how did it receive its uh funding to do that work?

BORMANN: Uh we'd go out and do the different fundraisers.

DRUMMOND: OK. OK. And uh the Oregon apprenticeship program uh wasn't just for machinists. I mean, it was for tra --

BORMANN: Yeah.

DRUMMOND: It was just for machin --

BORMANN: Just --

DRUMMOND: OK.

BORMANN: Just for machinists. Each craft had its own -- own apprenticeship board.

DRUMMOND: OK. OK. Uh and I wanted to ask you too -- because you said you weren't involved in too many strikes. And we talked about the one 12-day strike you guys had. But as auditor -- or -- and uh -- and in all the financial 01:12:00roles, you have perhaps had -- uh you've been the person who sort of gets financially set up for --

BORMANN: Yes.

DRUMMOND: -- coming strikes. B -- and it's removed from the actual like footwork and action, uh you know --

BORMANN: Correct. Yeah.

DRUMMOND: -- on the street. Um can you talk a little bit about that process?

BORMANN: Well, in the district, for example -- uh and I can relate -- I'll relate this to my local, because we had our own strike fund -- uh we would produce a list of, A, who was -- who was eligible, how much they were eligible for. And their committeeperson, whoever signed them off, would come in and say, "OK, this person did their duty, did what they were required to do. This person didn't show. This person's gone to work." We'd strike those names, because they weren't eligible. Uh the International would send out checks once a week. We would have to disburse those, get a receipt. They had to 01:13:00sign a receipt, sign a release, a stipulation that they had not worked and made over X amount of dollars, and so forth. Uh and you -- then you had to compile all that information, send it back to headquarters weekly, uh and prepare for the next week. And the local also. So in the case of Boeing, uh in the -- the strike that I was involved in in '90 or '91 -- I forget when it was -- it must have been '89 or '90 -- uh we had like -- I suppose by that time there was 2,000 people working there. So you have to get all this prepared. You have to get checks printed for the -- for the local. Because you don't want to use cash.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: Cash is evil. Don't deal with cash.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BORMANN: Uh and you have to have a two-part check, so you have a copy of it. And when it's all over with, you have to put the stuff in order. Because if you spend a disproportionate amount of money, uh the Internal Revenue Service or the 01:14:00Labor Department's going to come and see why all of a sudden your bottom line changed by a million, 2 million dollars. So that's what we would do.

DRUMMOND: OK. Uh I see here that you received a Guide Dogs of America Gift of Sight award. And when did you receive that?

BORMANN: 2010.

DRUMMOND: 2010, so shortly after you'd retired.

BORMANN: Right.

DRUMMOND: And um -- and uh what does that award recognize, specifically?

BORMANN: Uh just uh service to the guide dog industry, uh to the school, Guide Dogs of America. When I was in the district, we started a golf tournament to raise funds. The director at that time, Bud Melvin, was a good friend of mine and just pure gentleman. He and his wife were great ambassadors for the school and would just take every penny you had and make you happy about it. And I 01:15:00always appreciated Bud. And I knew that they had financial issues. And, you know, uh he'd ask people to do whatever they could. So we decided we'd start a golf tournament. And it's still going today.

DRUMMOND: Yeah?

BORMANN: Uh and we raised a little bit of money and -- and uh continued to grow it, and got to where we were raising $25,000, $30,000 a year uh. And, uh you know, I always appreciated that uh when I was the director. And -- and he appreciated it. And then uh -- then I went to work for -- for the organization. And -- and that uh -- that particular award is presented at uh one of the major fundraisers of the year, in Las Vegas in November. And uh it was my job to put that event on for 11 years. And it's gut-wrenching. You know, we have a golf tournament. We have a Harley ride. I have a board of directors' meeting. And 01:16:00we put this event on.

DRUMMOND: And do people come -- is it just for Las Vegas or do people come from all over too?

BORMANN: Oh, they come from everywhere!

DRUMMOND: OK. And is it largely Machinists or is it --?

BORMANN: Oh, no!

DRUMMOND: Uh no. OK.

BORMANN: Oh, no. It's both management, it's -- it's insurance people, it's money managers. It's anybody that wants to come.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BORMANN: And uh when I took over, I think that year they had like uh 600 people attend. At the height, we had 1,300 attend dinner.

DRUMMOND: Wow!

BORMANN: So, you know, it's a -- just a logistical nightmare. And it's like herding cats.

DRUMMOND: Oh, sure!

BORMANN: Because if you have a -- uh if you have a guest list, I guarantee you that 20%, 30%, the names are going to change and -- "Oh, we forgot to tell you --"

DRUMMOND: Yeah.

BORMANN: Uh [bu?]--

DRUMMOND: And I suspect, too, Vegas, while it's a good place, that people like to come, it's hard to get them in to dinner --

BORMANN: Yeah.

DRUMMOND: -- if they're having a good run --

BORMANN: Yeah.

DRUMMOND: -- on a table.

BORMANN: Well, no, we had a cocktail hour before and --

DRUMMOND: OK. OK.

BORMANN: And everybody's there to visit and uh --

DRUMMOND: OK.

BORMANN: So we tried to make it a real fun evening. We turned it into theme nights. And, you know, it might be Tommy Bahama or it might be Western, whatever. And people enjoy dressing up and not having to put a suit and tie on.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: You know, we had one black-tie for a -- uh a 50th anniversary -- or 25th anniversary of that event. Uh and we'd give away what was called the Gift of Sight. And the dinner actually started -- Bud Melvin started it because they were dead frigging broke. And they needed money and they needed it now. So they decided, "We'll have this dinner in Vegas. And at such short notice, nobody'll come, so we won't have to pay for the dinners. And we'll get this money. We'll charge $150 a ticket." So they did. They came.

DRUMMOND: (laughs)

BORMANN: They were shocked. There was like 160-some people came. And they raised over $100,000 uh.

DRUMMOND: That's fantastic.

BORMANN: It was -- it was just phenomenal.

DRUMMOND: Mm.

BORMANN: They were in a state of shock. And if -- if and when you interview Bud uh -- uh it was just like magic. And so it just took off from there. And now they -- they raise a lot more money than that. It's like 20%, 25% of their annual budget, so. Uh you know, it's not uncommon for somebody to walk up onstage and drop a quarter of a million dollars, now.

DRUMMOND: Nice.

BORMANN: Uh so. But, you know, they work all year long and they work hard. Uh and they devote time and energy. And they're not getting paid and -- so, anyway.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BORMANN: They -- they thought I did a good job, so they gave me the Gift of Sight award.

DRUMMOND: OK. Um are you involved with them still, in your retirement?

BORMANN: You know, I play in golf tournaments here and there. But um I'm a believer that, when you leave a job and a new person comes in, you should be a leaver, and you should not interfere. Now the new director's a friend of mine --

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: -- a very good friend of mine.

DRUMMOND: Who is it?

BORMANN: Dale Hartford.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BORMANN: Uh and I'm his biggest fan and his biggest cheerleader. And uh I've never been back to the facility in two years. I don't intend to go back. It's his facility now. I did my time. It was a job. For me, it was a job. Uh and when you're not real bright, you have to throw everything you've got at it and -- and just work nonstop -- which is what I did.

DRUMMOND: Uh OK.

BORMANN: But when you're done, you need to be done.

DRUMMOND: I don't -- I don't think it's fair to say, uh well, you're not real bright. I don't think that that's the case at all. Um are you involved in any retirees' groups in your area --

BORMANN: Mn-mn-mn.

DRUMMOND: -- for the Machinists? No? You just --? You're living your -- you're living your -- this is what you've worked for.

BORMANN: Uh --

DRUMMOND: This is why you were in a union.

BORMANN: I paid my dues.

DRUMMOND: And this is your time.

BORMANN: I paid my dues.

DRUMMOND: Literally.

BORMANN: Yeah.

DRUMMOND: Figuratively. OK.

BORMANN: I've been gone -- I've been away for -- uh I li -- I had a house, for two years, that I didn't spend six months in. I didn't spend three months in that house. And I owned it for two years. That's how much I was on 01:20:00the road. So, you know, I enjoy just going out in the backyard, having a nice cigar --

DRUMMOND: Yeah.

BORMANN: -- Seattle's Best.

DRUMMOND: Drink a beer.

BORMANN: I don't drink but --

DRUMMOND: OK.

BORMANN: Uh you know, whatever.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: Uh I don't -- I've only flown like four times since I retired.

DRUMMOND: Really?

BORMANN: Yeah.

DRUMMOND: And -- and one of them was for this.

BORMANN: Yup.

DRUMMOND: Well, we do appreciate it. Um you mentioned Raymond Thompson a couple of times --

BORMANN: Mm-hmm.

DRUMMOND: -- while we were talking, uh that he was an influence on you and a -- and a role model. Can you speak to any other role models or --

BORMANN: Oh!

DRUMMOND: -- folks who might have influenced you or helped you, and in your -- ?

BORMANN: Absolutely. Uh actually, there were four --

DRUMMOND: OK.

BORMANN: -- uh Tom Docey, who was the General Secretary-Treasurer that appointed me as an auditor, Don Wharton, who you've already talked to, who became my 01:21:00boss after Ducy retired, Bill Engler, who one of you will talk to, and Mike Dorsey, who one of you talked to.

DRUMMOND: I did. I had the pleasure of that interview.

BORMANN: And, you know, uh under all the façade, every one of those guys is rock solid, and -- but were, without question, a very positive influence on my career and helped me tremendously -- never said a word, never asked to be thanked.

DRUMMOND: Mm.

BORMANN: Uh but nobody in any organization moves vertical without help.

DRUMMOND: Right.

BORMANN: Somebody opens the door. Somebody pushes you. Somebody drags you. Somebody calms you down. You know. Tho-- and those -- those are the guys.

DRUMMOND: And I suspect that they all -- and I've only met three of them. But they all have very different styles.

BORMANN: Very different.

DRUMMOND: So they all brought a little something.

BORMANN: Ducy and -- and Wharton were very much alike. Uh both of them -- both of them had a tremendous amount of trust in their -- in their staff and their coworkers. And they -- they treated you with phenomenal amount of respect, phenomenal. Uh Engler and Dorsey also. They might -- they were the front line.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: Uh they were the -- they were the face of the General Secretary-Treasurer. Because they worked for the General Secretary-Treasurer. So they were the people that those of us in the field interacted with. We didn't interact directly with Ducy and with Wharton. Uh so, you know -- and they were -- they were friends before I had the job -- acquaintances before I had the job and we've been friends ever since. Uh they're -- they're just people that, you know, you care about, that have been good to you when they didn't have to be.

DRUMMOND: Uh it seems like there's a lot of personal responsibility high -- 01:23:00the higher up you get in the union. They're amazing people, who really step up. And while they have different styles, it's all really solid leadership. Would you say that's true?

BORMANN: Oh, absolutely.

DRUMMOND: OK. Uh what is the most satisfying thing about your career with the Machinists?

BORMANN: Uh I'd have to say uh just -- just the people that I -- I worked with and the -- the people that I had the -- the luxury to represent. Uh it's like the 99%.

DRUMMOND: Mm.

BORMANN: You know, 99% are world class. You know, everybody has their one-percenters.

DRUMMOND: Yeah, yeah.

BORMANN: The Machinists does too. But the -- the vast majority of the people that I represented and that I worked with and worked for were just first class. But you have to understand. Uh I worked with journeymen that were skilled, that 01:24:00had further education, that had spent time in grade, had had to work to get better at what they did.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: It wasn't -- wasn't like somebody that -- uh and uh I don't mean disrespect by this. I mean, I hope you don't put this down. But if -- if you do the same mundane thing all the time, it is what it is. Now if your responsibility is to maintain 100 acres of equipment and you have the -- the education level and skill level and the drive to learn how to do that, as opposed to stand in one place and do one task on an assembly line, over and over and over, I think the guy that's out there that learned his craft is perhaps more motivated than someone that didn't. And all -- all these folks are -- are 01:25:00pretty well motivated. Uh you don't continue to rise and move forward if you're not -- if you don't have some self-motivation.

DRUMMOND: Right. Uh are there any further experiences that you would like to share that we perhaps did not cover today?

BORMANN: I guess uh I have one.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BORMANN: And it's about the Guide Dog school, when I first went there. They have a graduation ceremony. And during the graduation ceremony, the puppy raiser gets up, gets to say a little spiel. But the graduate gets to s -- get up and speak. Nobody knows what they're going to say.

DRUMMOND: The -- you mean the blind student --

BORMANN: Right --

DRUMMOND: -- who's been there training like uh --

BORMANN: -- the sight-impaired person with --

DRUMMOND: The sight-impaired --

BORMANN: -- with their new dog. And it's very emotional. Oh, my God, it's emotional. Because it's a life-changing experience for these people. And they go from doing this to all of a sudden they've got somebody on their hand. And they're -- they're out rockin' and rollin'. And they're -- they're 01:26:00dangerous. Now they can get around.

DRUMMOND: Yeah. And how long is the training program?

BORMANN: Four weeks.

DRUMMOND: Four weeks. OK.

BORMANN: The dog's already trained when they get there. You have to train them and get them comfortable with the dog and so they trust each other and bond and so forth.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: OK. We had a young lady who had multiple issues, physical issues and visual issues. And she was so weak that, when we went out to interview her originally, the trainer said, you know, she couldn't possibly hold onto this dog. A 60-pound female would just drag her down the street. So he gave her this regimen of things to build her body up, you know, "You need to swim so many laps. You" -- blah blah, blah blah blah. Girl's a wreck, never going to be able to do it. Wrong. Her parents uh had the wherewithal economically to get a trainer. And, I don't know, a year, a year-and-a-half later she calls up and she says, "I'm ready." You've forgotten about what you've told her.

DRUMMOND: Mm.

BORMANN: So she had to refresh -- goes over. She's all ready to swim. Jumps in the pool. Chh-chh chh-chh. "OK, that's good." "No, no. You said 50 laps. You're going to watch 50 laps."

DRUMMOND: Wow!

BORMANN: So she obviously has -- has got the strength now, has the stamina -- got all the willpower in the world. So she goes through the program. And uh there's a father not in the immediate picture and a mother. Mother is the mother. She has -- now, you have a child that was born blind. So mothers are protective by nature but, you wound the -- you wound the puppy, Mom's really going to be protective -- and has had --

DRUMMOND: Mm.

BORMANN: -- the protective cape around this child. The child's been to college and is very, very smart, academically very intelligent. And now she's got this dog and she can move. She can get on a b -- and we teach them how to get on 01:28:00buses. We teach them the bus routes. They take them to the -- to the subways, all these things that are mass transit in L.A. Apparently this girl had some money of her own. At graduation -- I'm sitting next to the mother -- she announces to her mother and the world that her and Fluffy have rented an apartment in L.A. and are getting on with their life. Mom came out of her chair like an ICBM missile --

DRUMMOND: Really? (laughs)

BORMANN: -- this is news to her --

DRUMMOND: Yeah.

BORMANN: -- tears streaking down her face. Didn't say a word. Tissues. Sh -- her makeup's just shot by now.

DRUMMOND: Yeah.

BORMANN: Sits down. The child announces she's got a friggin' job too, and has already been trained what mass transit to ride to where to transfer to get to her job. Up comes Mom again, tears streaming down her -- she knows nothing 01:29:00about any of this. Three times she came up in the air while this child gave this three-minute speech.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: And the mother was just in shock. She was -- she wasn't upset. She wasn't devastated or any -- she was just in shock. She's had this protective covering around this child for 20-some years and all of a sudden, after four weeks of being in a school and getting Fluffy, the child is ready to rock and roll -- and did -- and did.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BORMANN: Uh she had some other physical issues and ended up moving back home because -- because of the physical issues --

DRUMMOND: Mm.

BORMANN: -- not because of the inability to -- to get around.

DRUMMOND: Right.

BORMANN: Uh and that was probably the most emotional thing that I experienced 01:30:00there, is watching that transformation from -- you know, this butterfly --

DRUMMOND: Yeah.

BORMANN: -- uh this butterfly that flew away and --

DRUMMOND: Mm.

BORMANN: Because, you know, the reality of the thing is we hope we don't outlive our children.

DRUMMOND: Right.

BORMANN: And so the child is -- is going to have be independent, at some stage of the game.

DRUMMOND: Mm.

BORMANN: So, for me, it was full circle. We completed -- we completed the ring, and we did what we had contracted to do and agreed to do, and that was independence and enhance the quality of life of -- of that person.

DRUMMOND: Mm.

BORMANN: So it was -- it was pretty shocking.

DRUMMOND: It was satisfying.

BORMANN: Yes. And there's -- you know, uh I mean, I could tell you stories like that all day long, uh things you see uh and -- uh but I'm not going to.

DRUMMOND: That's a good example, though, of what Guide Dogs does.

BORMANN: Uh it's -- it's phenomenal, you know. She's an interesting young woman and mentally tough, tougher than most guys.

DRUMMOND: Yeah. Yeah.

BORMANN: Uh most bli --

DRUMMOND: You have to --

BORMANN: Most blind peo -- most blind people are t -- that get a guide dog are tough. They are -- they're a cut above. Because it's not easy. You have to be really motivated to do this.

DRUMMOND: Mm.

BORMANN: So. That's all I've got for you.

DRUMMOND: OK. Well, I appreciate your time today.

BORMANN: So, no problem.