James Brown, Jr. Interview

TRACI DRUMMOND: This is Traci Drummond, Archivist for the Labor Collections at Georgia State University Library in Atlanta. I am here at the Winpisinger Center for Education Technology with James Brown, Jr., who is here to talk to us today, um, about his work with the union. Um, it is Tuesday, uh, December 6th, 2011. And welcome, and thank you for agreeing to participate in our oral history project.

JAMES BROWN, JR.: I'm happy to do it.

DRUMMOND: So I'm going to start with some questions about your early years and your family.

BROWN: Mm-hmm.

DRUMMOND: So, uh, where are you from, and where are your parents from?

BROWN: My -- I'm from St. Louis, Missouri. I was born there. My mother and father -- uh, my mother was from St. Louis, also, but my father came from Fort Worth, Texas. In 1932, he met my mother, uh, wound up marrying her, and stayed in St. Louis.

DRUMMOND: OK. And how many brothers and sisters did you have?

BROWN: Oh, I have, uh, two brothers, one four years older than me and one eleven 00:01:00years younger.

DRUMMOND: OK, OK.

BROWN: Yeah.

DRUMMOND: And what kind of work did your parents do?

BROWN: My mother was a housekeeper -- I mean at home, stay at home mom --

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: -- and my dad was a factory worker, and he worked for a company in St. Louis that made the extract, which is the syrup, for 7-Up, uh, beverage.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: And it was a private concern that made just that, uh, extract, and they made food colors, also. He worked there for 38 years -- non-union place, I might add.

DRUMMOND: In a non-union -- that was my next question.

BROWN: Yes, it was.

DRUMMOND: And so tell me a little bit about your schooling growing up. Did you, did you finish -- ?

BROWN: I went to St. Edward's Grade School, Catholic School. I started in 1949, graduated in '57, went to Soldan High School from '57 to 1960 -- or to '59, rather, I'm sorry. And then, uh, in '59 my parents moved to St. Louis 00:02:00County and I had to transfer schools to the Ritenour School District.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: And then I, uh, went to Ritenour and graduated from there in 1961.

DRUMMOND: OK. As, um, a young man in high school, getting ready to graduate and looking toward graduation, what did the kids in your neighborhood, what did the -- what were they going to do after school? What kind of neighborhood were you...? Was it mostly working class? Was it -- ?

BROWN: Typical working class neighborhood where most of the people worked in factories. We lived in our St. Louis County, and McDonnell Douglas Corporation was a big employer in that area, and there was a --

DRUMMOND: What did they make?

BROWN: Airplanes.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: Yeah, fighter aircraft, and a lot of people went to work there.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: But I was fortunate in high school. They had what they called a cooperative education program, and I was never what you would call a wonderful student. I always wanted to get out and go to work and do something productive. I didn't think that school was that productive. You know, that's --

DRUMMOND: Yeah.

BROWN: -- a young person's thoughts.

DRUMMOND: Well --

BROWN: But anyway, I enrolled in this CO program, cooperative education --

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: -- and that allowed you to go to school a half a day in the morning, and then you'd get out of school at noontime and you'd go to your job --

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: -- and you worked four hours.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: Now, my job, at that time it was at the gas station --

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: -- and so I would go there at 5:00 in the evening -- so from noontime to 5:00 I was kind of free time, basically, and then you'd work from 5:00 to 9:00 at the gas station, and I was fortunate enough to work for a fellow there that knew all about automobiles and repairs, and already had a lot of mechanical ability, so I learned a lot about repairing automobiles then.

DRUMMOND: OK. And before we finish talking about that job, you also in 1959 -- I guess the summer of '59 -- had a airport coffee shop.

BROWN: Oh, I did. That was really my first job.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: Uh, and, uh...

DRUMMOND: And just a summer, June to August kind of -- ?

BROWN: June to August. I was out of school. The... We moved into the new 00:04:00neighborhood in North County, and the next door neighbor happened to be the manager of the airport coffee shop. The airport was only three blocks from my house.

DRUMMOND: Not bad!

BROWN: So, uh, I went over, applied for a job and got hired, and I was the malt maker and dessert maker for the waitresses in the coffee shop at the, at the airport.

DRUMMOND: And that was an eight hour day?

BROWN: Eight hour day.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: And the other thing I'll never forget was the split shift: 6:00 in the morning to 2:30 in the afternoon, two days a week, and 2:30 in the morning or in the afternoon to 11:30 at night three days a week.

DRUMMOND: Did you have a shift you preferred?

BROWN: No, I kind of liked the swing shift.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: You'd work two days off, so you got to do things at nighttime, and then the other time you got to do things in the daytime --

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: -- so it was pretty good.

DRUMMOND: OK. And then, uh, later that year you, you -- it was Harold's Mobile Service, the one you were talking about previously.

BROWN: Yes, yes.

DRUMMOND: And, and then is Harold the man that taught you how to work on cars?

BROWN: Yes, and believe it or not, Harold was a former machinist, and he belonged to this union, the IAM.

DRUMMOND: Oh, really?

BROWN: Yes, and he opened up a gas station back in -- I guess he probably opened that in probably 1957, '58.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: This was a fairly new neighborhood that we moved into, and he had just been in business a couple years, and he wound up hiring me there.

DRUMMOND: OK. And what, what was Harold's last name?

BROWN: Stull, S-T-U-L-L.

DRUMMOND: Stull. Stull, OK.

BROWN: Yes.

DRUMMOND: And would you consider, um -- did you learn about -- ? Because you said your dad was in a non-union plant.

BROWN: Yes.

DRUMMOND: Um, did you learn about the union from Harold at all? Did he, did he, perhaps, serve a mentor role?

BROWN: He did, but not for unions.

DRUMMOND: No?

BROWN: My grandfather was a printer --

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: -- on my mother's side --

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: -- and he owned his own printing company, and he paid dues to the typographical union from the time he was young man until the time he died, when he was eighty-some odd years old.

DRUMMOND: Wow, OK.

BROWN: And he was on the sick committee for the union in his later years.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: And he would go around and visit printers who got ill or something like that, and he would go around and, uh, make sure that they're doing OK, and if 00:06:00the union could help them with anything. And he used to go to the conventions that the typographical workers had --

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: -- every four years, and he would always talk about that when he came back. He was proud to be a union person. Yeah.

DRUMMOND: OK. OK. And it sounds like he stayed involved throughout.

BROWN: Oh, he did.

DRUMMOND: Yeah.

BROWN: He, he never gave up, never did, yeah.

DRUMMOND: So, but, but so all in all your family had a good attitude about unions and thought --

BROWN: Oh, yes.

DRUMMOND: -- well of, of the, the work that unions did for, for their members.

BROWN: My dad worked at the Chevrolet, uh, motor factory in St. Louis --

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: -- in the '30s, and in 1937 they had a big strike there, and he went out and carried picket signs, trying to organize the UAW [United Auto Workers]. And, uh, one of the guys that was a personnel man, he happened to have picket duties assigned in front of the building. He was carrying the signs. Well, lo and behold, the -- UAW finally signed a contract. They came back to work, only they didn't want my father anymore because they seen him out there carrying a picket sign.

DRUMMOND: Really?

BROWN: So he never did get back there.

DRUMMOND: Oh -- and so, um, while working at Harold's you learned more about working on cars and engines, and --

BROWN: Oh, yes, and I had to join, uh, Teamsters -- it was 618 at that time, back in the late '50s, early '60s. Every gas station you went to was a unionized place.

DRUMMOND: Huh, that's fascinating.

BROWN: Yeah, oh yeah, so --

DRUMMOND: Yeah!

BROWN: So you joined the union right there, and the business rep would come by after you went to work, and after you worked a probationary period of 30 days or so he'd come by and tell you that, you know, you're in the union. They'd send you a letter --

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: -- invite you to come to your first meeting, and I went, and it was -- uh, Teamster 618 was the local number.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: And, uh, they got you in the meeting, and it was a whole bunch of us there, and they told you all the benefits of being in a union. Even to the extent that if you got in trouble with the police and you needed help, you could call them and they'd send somebody to represent you in the event you got a traffic ticket or --

DRUMMOND: Oh, wow.

BROWN: -- got in an accident or something like that, you know.

DRUMMOND: OK. And, um --

BROWN: $5 a month dues.

DRUMMOND: $5 a month dues.

BROWN: Yeah.

DRUMMOND: Was that a lot?

BROWN: No, it wasn't bad.

DRUMMOND: No, no.

BROWN: I think the Machinists was $5 about that time, too.

DRUMMOND: OK, OK.

BROWN: Yeah.

DRUMMOND: And, um, and you worked there for a couple of years?

BROWN: Yes.

DRUMMOND: And what happened that, um, had you leave Harold's Mobile Service?

BROWN: Harold did a lot of extensive auto repairs, and the Mobil Oil Company who owned the gas station didn't want their service station to do a lot of auto repairs. All they wanted to do was sell gas.

DRUMMOND: Mm.

BROWN: They kept raising the man's rate on his rent until he couldn't afford to be there anymore and he had to close up.

DRUMMOND: Mm, that's too bad.

BROWN: Yeah.

DRUMMOND: Um, but that left you needing another job.

BROWN: It did.

DRUMMOND: Did you, uh, during any of this time, did you happen to go out and do any vo/tech school, or any extra training or anything?

BROWN: While I was working at Harold's --

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: -- (clears throat) I enrolled in, uh, what they call Ranken Technical School in St. Louis, and it's a, I guess a world-renowned training center --

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: -- did all kinds of mechanical trades, and I studied machine shop, because I always had a kind of a knack to do that kind of stuff. And when I went to the first two years of high school, I got in the shop program -- it was wood shop -- and I always had a knack to build things anyway, always liked to do that, or take things apart and fix them.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: So I just, kind of in-bred knowledge, I guess. My dad was always good at that, too.

DRUMMOND: OK. So, uh, tell me about -- and you were at, um, Continental Can Company a good long time.

BROWN: Yes.

DRUMMOND: '61-'77.

BROWN: Yes.

DRUMMOND: Um, so tell me a little bit about, um, your first job there.

BROWN: I went to work there as a summer replacement, because Continental Can was a pretty good employer about hiring, uh, college people for summer work --

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: -- and they also happened to be one of the highest paid people in St. Louis, the second highest paying factory. Well anyway, I got called in there on August 28th, 1961. I went to the Missouri Unemployment Office after the gas station closed up, and they told me to go to Continental Can Company and they was going to hire some people, because the college kids had left their 00:10:00employment and was going back to school, and the can company season was still going strong. It had about another month to go. So they wanted to fill those positions. So I go down there to Continental Can, (clears throat) go to Personnel Office, uh, get an application. There's 20 people in the lobby of the company filling out applications when I get there.

DRUMMOND: Wow.

BROWN: So I'm the last to get in the door, basically. And I'm filling out the application and they're all standing around. The personnel office was one flight of stairs up. So I got my application all filled out, and everybody else was standing around with them in their hands, so I thought, well, you know what? I'm going to go up, turn mine in to the office, because it's upstairs.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: So I just walked up the staircase --

DRUMMOND: (laughter)

BROWN: -- and I went inside and asked the lady in there. I said, "Listen, I got this application done." She said, "Oh, fine, let me have that." So I give it to her. Well, she then picked my application up, went downstairs, and collected the other 20 and set them on top of mine, so when they actually did 00:11:00the hiring -- and they hired all of us --

DRUMMOND: Uh huh.

BROWN: -- the first person on the top of the list was the last one to turn in the application. It wasn't me; I was the first one to turn it in. So they time stamped each one, and that became your seniority date for working there, because it was a unionized plant.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: Because of that, I lost two and a half months' work through a layoff, where the last fellow's application that got filled out that day, he was on the top, or the bottom of the pile -- or the top of the pile --

DRUMMOND: Yeah.

BROWN: -- he got to work completely through and never missed a day.

DRUMMOND: Wow.

BROWN: Yeah.

DRUMMOND: Wow. Huh. So what was your first job there, once they did hire you, before the layoff?

BROWN: OK, so I got in there, and, uh, they put me in a place called coil sheer, and it was a big coil line where they put a big coil of metal and they cut it up in 36 inch square sheets, and I had to wrap the sheets up and bundle them with paper. They'd send them out of town or they'd use them in the plant, and that's what I did there.

DRUMMOND: OK. And, um, it -- but I -- were you -- it was in -- it was a unionized plant?

BROWN: Oh, it was a Steelworkers.

DRUMMOND: Steelworkers. And, um, did you join the Steelworkers?

BROWN: I did.

DRUMMOND: You did?

BROWN: Let me say one thing about that. I left the can company, or the gas station, and that was a six day standard work week, 48 hours a week, and you were paid straight time hours.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: I left the can company. I was making $96 a week in 1961, so if you divide 48 into 96, tell you how much money I made. I go in the front door of the can company, go on to the midnight shift, they pay 12.5 cents an hour as a shift premium, and on the midnights, from midnight to 7:00, you worked six and a half hours but you're paid for eight, because of the midnight. That was a shift bonus. I went in to work at $2.40 an hour, which was a fantastic amount at that time --

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: -- because they worked you basically seven days a week. Everything was double time and, and, uh, time and a half, or all overtime, anything after 40 hours.

DRUMMOND: Wow.

BROWN: Mm.

DRUMMOND: And, um, and that was a steel, Steelworkers --

BROWN: Steelworkers Union, yes.

DRUMMOND: Steelworkers Union. And did you have a probationary period going in?

BROWN: Thirty day probationary.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: And here's what happened: I started in on the 28th of August. I worked there 28 days --

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: -- and I got laid off. I got laid off. If you didn't have 30 days, they had no obligation to recall you under the contract, OK. But if you did get recalled, they would count any previous time you had worked and then give you a seniority date on the day you got recalled. So I was off two weeks because of that situation I told you about earlier --

DRUMMOND: Uh huh.

BROWN: -- my being the first one with the application, I wound up as the last one. I was out two weeks, and I got recalled. The two weeks that I were out I 00:14:00found another job at McDonnell Douglas, the aircraft manufacturer --

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: -- so I went to work over there for one week, and I got notified at the can company I was getting recalled. Well, the can company at that time paid 60 cents an hour more --

DRUMMOND: Wow, OK.

BROWN: -- than McDonnell Douglas, so I went to the foreman at the, at McDonnell and told him. I said, "Listen, I got a opportunity to go back to the can company, and I already had 28 days there. All I got to do is get two days and I'm on the seniority list." I said, "I'm going to go back there." So he assured me that if, uh, nothing worked out to give him a call, he'd hire me back. So I quit there. I went back to the can company, went to work. I worked two weeks --

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: -- got a seniority date, which was October 16th, '61, and they laid me off for, until January the 1st. And so I didn't have the nerve to go back to McDonnell Douglas and ask that man for a job after just quitting --

DRUMMOND: Right.

BROWN: -- so I went back to work in gas stations.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: Yeah.

DRUMMOND: To get you through until the beginning of the --

BROWN: To get me through until January, yeah.

DRUMMOND: OK. Um, and when you went back, were you still working the same job?

BROWN: Well, when I went back to work –- now this is the greatest thing that I can ever tell somebody about a labor union --

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: -- because today people think that if you work for a company, whether you're union or not, you get holidays and you get them paid and all that kind of stuff. Well, that's not really the case. They may give them to you in some places that are non-union, but normally they don't give you anything unless you make them do it, basically. I was laid off from the can company, and I get a letter in the mail in late December to return to work at the can company. I'm being recalled on January the 2nd, because January 1st is New Year's Day and that's generally a holiday. So I go back to work on January the 2nd of 1962, 00:16:00and when I got my check for that week's work they paid me for January the 1st, because I worked the day after the holiday.

DRUMMOND: Right. Excellent.

BROWN: Not the day before --

DRUMMOND: Excellent.

BROWN: -- just the day after.

DRUMMOND: Uh huh, uh huh.

BROWN: And I'll tell you what, I thought to myself, boy, the union place has really got the advantage over non-union --

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: -- because you'd never get that in a non-union place, no.

DRUMMOND: No, not at all.

BROWN: Yeah, and I never missed another day there --

DRUMMOND: Really?

BROWN: -- in 16 years, yeah.

DRUMMOND: Wow. Now, um, it was the Steelworkers Union. When did it become a Machinists Union?

BROWN: The Steelworkers had the production of the plant.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: The Machinists Union had the machine shop.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: OK? At the time I went to work at Continental Can, I had enrolled in this rank and trade school that I told you about earlier, and was trying to figure out -- my dad used to tell me all the time, "Learn some kind of trade so if you lose a job you always got a skill you can rely on," --

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: -- so that's what I was doing. And I had already completed almost a year of training at Ranken, and I would apply at the machine shop to a guy that 00:17:00was a manufacturing engineer. When I'd get off in the morning -- because I was working midnight to 7:00 -- I'd get off at 7:00, I'd go by the machine shop, and I'd stop in there and talk to the guy that was a manufacturing engineer there -- he was over the machine shop personnel -- and tell him who I was, and I worked over in the assembly department, and that I was interested in getting an apprenticeship in the machine shop. Well, everybody and his brother told me, "You'll never get in there, because they only hire one apprentice, and they ain't going to put any more on," and all that kind of stuff. Well, I was persistent. I went there every day, or once a week, every week for a year, and seen that guy. And one day I went by there and I stopped and seen him, and he said, "Listen, we're going to hire somebody in the machine shop, and I want you to interview with the shop foreman." Now, the reason being I think this guy was impressed that I was going to night school --

DRUMMOND: Right.

BROWN: -- trying to learn a trade, and that's how he had gotten his education and rose up through the ranks. So I went by and seen the foreman at the machine shop the next day when I got off work, and I went in, and I'll never forget -- it was an old German fellow, and he was sitting at his desk, and he -- I walked in and I told him who I was, and he said, "Yeah, I know, I'm going to interview you today." He said, uh, "You're going to school to learn the machine shop training." I said, "Yes, I am." He said, "What machines can you run?" I said, "Well, I've been studying the lathe, then they teach you one year on the lathe, six months on a milling machine, six months on a grinder." I said, "I've been going for a year. I've just renewed the terms so I'm now starting to learn the milling machine, so the really the one I know how to run is the lathe." So he said, "What other ones can you run?" I said, "Well, I can run a drill press, or," I said, "I know how to do a hand grinder, things like that, but," I said, "they only teach you one machine at a time."

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: "And I've only been going a year, so all I can do is run a, the lathe." Without looking at me -- and he was fooling with something in his 00:19:00fingers; I'll never forget this -- and without even looking up at me, he said, "Well, I thought we was going to hire somebody today, but after talking to you I don't think we're going to."

DRUMMOND: What?

BROWN: And so I just looked at him with a blank stare. He never even looked at me. I said, "Well, that's fine. So I guess -- OK, thanks, goodbye." And I turned around, opened the door, and left. And I thought, well, this guy just shot the wind out of my sails. I'm not getting hired in here. The next day I go to my time clock. There's a note on my card. Uh, I pull it out. The guy, the manufacturing engineer who I'd been talking to for the last year tells me, "Stop by the machine shop when you get off work." And I went by there; he told me, "You got the job, that guy liked you."

DRUMMOND: Excellent.

BROWN: I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe it, yeah.

DRUMMOND: So, um, the next week you started over -- ?

BROWN: Started over at the machine shop, so that's when I joined the IAM. I had to go on 30 day probation again, now --

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: -- to do that. In fact, uh, they put me in apprentice program, so it was really a six month probation, but 30 days to get in the union.

DRUMMOND: OK. And, um, so what were the changes --

BROWN: Well, instead of --

DRUMMOND: -- you know, in going from production to the machine shop?

BROWN: Yeah, instead of feeding production machinery I was actually working on the machinery --

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: -- and making parts to repair the equipment.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: And I was working with a group of journeymen. At that time we had 25 people working in the machine shop -– tool-and-die makers, machinists -- and we did everything there, I mean, every kind of mechanical work you can think of. And I already had some background because I had been going to the trade school, but --

DRUMMOND: Right.

BROWN: -- I'll tell you what, I, I went to this trade school to learn the lathe, and probably learned more in a first day on the job than I did in a year at the training school, because everything was sharp cut and do it in a hurry.

DRUMMOND: Right, right, right.

BROWN: And you learned how to do that quick, you know.

DRUMMOND: OK, so you had your 30, your 30 day probationary period --

BROWN: Yes.

DRUMMOND: -- to join the union --

BROWN: Yes.

DRUMMOND: -- and then you went through your apprenticeship in six months.

BROWN: Uh, it was four years, four year apprenticeship.

DRUMMOND: It was a four year apprenticeship, oh wow.

BROWN: Now at that time -- let me tell you something else about that -- at that time, because of the union contract, which consisted of 325 pages -- this was a master agreement, the only one that the IAM had at that particular time in the '60s was with the can companies, American and Continental Can -- 325 pages. When you walked in the door, because of the contract they had a set of tools for the apprentice that consisted -- it cost $250, and today's dollars it'd probably be $2,500 -- and they'd furnish all those tools to start with.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: You, uh, guaranteed a job. As long as there was eight journeymen working they kept an apprentice, didn't lay him off. And you went to school one day every other week for eight hours at a related instruction classes for mathematics and blueprint reading and so on and so forth, and it was all paid for by the company.

DRUMMOND: Oh, wow, that's (inaudible).

BROWN: Through the contract, yeah.

DRUMMOND: Yeah, that's --

BROWN: Great deal, great deal.

DRUMMOND: That is great, yeah.

BROWN: It was, yeah.

DRUMMOND: And so -- and it's, took you four years to finish your apprenticeship training.

BROWN: Four years, and I finished in 1967.

DRUMMOND: OK. And, um, so that was ten years. You were still there ten more years.

BROWN: '67. I didn't start there until '61.

DRUMMOND: '61, but I mean, um, from '67 to '77. So, so once your apprenticeship training was finished, you --

BROWN: Oh, well then, then I was a journeyman.

DRUMMOND: Yeah, then you were a journeyman.

BROWN: So instead of working with a journeyman to go on a job, you went on, by yourself, or you took another journeyman with you --

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: -- and then you were responsible for repairing the equipment that broke down throughout the plant.

DRUMMOND: OK. So how long did it take you to get involved? I, I -- and, and, and to start, um, participating --

BROWN: I probably got involved when I was an apprentice.

DRUMMOND: Yeah, yeah.

BROWN: I always, uh, I -- I always liked to know what kind of benefits you had, so I read the contract --

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: -- cover to cover, and in the contract I find language that says as an apprentice if you satisfactorily complete your related instruction training that the company will pay for the cost of that training. Prior to that, during the 00:23:00related instruction portion of the apprenticeship I had to pay the school. And I think it was something like $100, OK. So each year you'd have to pay $100. Well, I find this paragraph in it, so I go to the shop steward and I tell him, "Listen, I'm looking at the contract and I see in here that they're supposed to pay me back my $100 for the related instruction class." "Oh," he said, "well we, we never had that done before." I said, "Well, it's in here. Let me show you."

DRUMMOND: Yeah.

BROWN: So I showed him in the contract book. "Well," he said, "we'll go up to the personnel office and tell them." I said, "All right." So lunchtime we went up to the personnel office and went in there, and the steward got the book out. He said, "Listen," he said, "Brown's an apprentice here, and he said, uh, he's paid for his schooling, and now he's successfully completed the first year of it, so he says, uh, you're supposed to reimburse him for that." "Oh," he said, "we don't do that," personnel manager says. "Well," he said, uh --

DRUMMOND: It's in the contract.

BROWN: -- "Well, I think that you're supposed to do that." And he said, "I don't know what you did before, but," he said, "here it is in the 00:24:00book." So he gives him the book. The guy looks at the book. "Well, I have to check that out," he says. "I don't know anything about that." So anyway, he left, and the next day they called me at the office and said, "Yeah, we're going to pay him." So right there I thought, "Oh, this is good reading." (laughter)

DRUMMOND: (laughter) But then I suspect, too, um, given that you were so interested in the contract and you were actually reading it that you were tapped early on to be someone who might be a steward or (inaudible) --

BROWN: I did. I got elected shop steward on the night shift, because I was stuck on nights --

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: -- because I was -- you started your seniority when you completed your apprenticeship, so you, needless to say, you went on the off shifts until you got enough seniority to be on days.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: So I got elected as a shop steward on nights, primarily because no one else wanted to do it --

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: -- and I thought, well, you know what? If I speak up and it's in there, I'm helping myself plus everybody else here.

DRUMMOND: Right, right.

BROWN: So that's why I took it.

DRUMMOND: And what were some of the types of grievances that, that you had at the shop?

BROWN: Jurisdictional work. The steelworkers, I told you, already shared the rest of the plant and the production, and they was always trying to infringe on the jurisdiction of the machinists' work, so we was always in a problem over that. The machinists had a lot more skills and was more capable with doing anything in the factory. The steelworkers would attempt to steal that and then couldn't complete it, and then they'd call us to do it anyway. So there was always a jurisdictional grievance there.

DRUMMOND: And how many women were in your shop? Was it a mostly male -- ?

BROWN: No women in the machine shop. Lot of them in the plant.

DRUMMOND: In, OK, a lot of women in the plant, not in the --

BROWN: Yeah, lot of women in the plant.

DRUMMOND: OK. And how many, how many people overall worked in the plant?

BROWN: 1,500.

DRUMMOND: Fifteen. So it was --

BROWN: Big place.

DRUMMOND: -- it was a, it was a big place.

BROWN: Oh, big factory.

DRUMMOND: And it was all in one location, it wasn't (inaudible).

BROWN: All one location, yeah.

DRUMMOND: OK. Um, so, so you started as shop steward --

BROWN: Yep.

DRUMMOND: -- and then what -- ?

BROWN: After, uh, four years of working off shifts I got put on days --

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: -- because I had the seniority to do it, and then I got elected as the chief shop steward.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: OK.

DRUMMOND: And did that, did that give you also -- did that also make you part of the bargaining unit?

BROWN: Oh, I'm still part of the bargaining unit, yes.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: Yes.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: But I was the chief shop steward for the machinists, so I'd present the grievances along with the business representative who'd come down from District 9.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: Uh, and I had that position, and every time we'd have a grievance meeting or something we would, uh, I would get them all together in the back of the machine shop in the welding area and tell them what happened in a grievance meeting. Now, the other stewards who had the job before me, they never did do that. They didn't tell anybody anything.

DRUMMOND: Yeah, yeah.

BROWN: So I would always do that, because I thought, you know what? You know, these people want to know what's going on, so I'll tell them. So then I, uh, start going to the regular union meetings, because I got invited, and I start going, and when I'd come back from a union meeting -- and their meetings were on Friday night -- I'd come down there on Monday and, uh, get them back in the back of the shop, and I'd tell them what happened at the union meeting, you know, what's going on. So, uh, they had another election for steward, and I got elected again.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: Yeah.

DRUMMOND: OK. Um, when did you move, um, up -- did you ever hold any positions as, um, President, Vice President, Business Manager in your local?

BROWN: That's another strange story.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: District 9, Lodge 41 --

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: -- I told you it was 100 years old in 1988.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: OK. It used to be a lot of people in the local. There was probably 8, 10,000 at one time.

DRUMMOND: Wow.

BROWN: And the union meetings -- you used to go to their meeting, and they'd be in a great big hall, and, I mean, it would be just loaded with people. So I went up there, and I was going on a pretty regular basis, and since I got on the day shift every Friday when they had the meeting I'd go. And I went to the, uh, Secretary Treasurer, or the President of the Lodge, and I told him, I said, "Listen, you ever need me to do anything around here," I said, "I'd be interested in helping out." You know, "I'm interested in maybe doing something for the union." "Oh," the guy said, "well, we don't have any openings right now," but he said, uh, "I'll keep that in mind."

DRUMMOND: That's the story of your life.

BROWN: Oh, that's right.

DRUMMOND: "We, we don't have any openings," right? (laughter)

BROWN: "Don't have no openings." Yeah, I always heard that. So a couple months later I come to a meeting one night, and he calls me up to the front of the room right before the meeting. "Hey Jim," he said, uh, "there's going to be an election for a sentinel, who is a guy that checks the books when the members come in the back door." Now, you still have that -- I think we combined that, uh, office some years ago --

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: -- conductor something it's called now.

DRUMMOND: I've never, I've never heard of the sentinel, yeah.

BROWN: Yeah, well, it was a sentinel. It was separate, then the conductor was separate.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: So he said a sentinel opening. So he said, "If you want to run for that, you can." "Oh," I said, "now, I'm not stepping on anybody's toes here or running against somebody or anything like that, am I?" "Oh, no," he said, "no," he said, "it's going to be open race, but," he said, "there is another guy going to run for the job." He said, "If you want to put your name in the hat, do it." "Oh," I said, "OK, I'll do it." So I put -- somebody nominated me for a job. The election was the following month. So, uh, a month following --

DRUMMOND: Did you run on a ticket? Did you run on a ticket?

BROWN: Yeah, there was a ticket, yeah.

DRUMMOND: OK, OK.

BROWN: But they didn't know me as well as this other guy --

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: -- who had been in the sentinel position, OK, so he was listed before me on the ticket.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: OK. So I get to the meeting that night or the day of the election, and the election started at 10:00 in the morning. Well, I had to work until 4:00, so I get off at 4:00 and I go out there. Well, the guy that was my opponent, he's already there. He's handing out bills with his name on there, everything else, okay? So I get out there, and I knew some people, because they'd seen me come to the meeting. I've asked questions before, so, um... I ask them, "Hey, I'd appreciate your vote, and it's for sentinel." Well anyway, come in there, and, uh, they had the election, count the ballots that night, come out there. Uh, this other fellow that run against me, he got, oh my God, ten times more votes than I got. He like got about 100 or so --

DRUMMOND: Right.

BROWN: -- and I think I got maybe 15, something like that. So I thought to myself, "Well, you know, I'm not going to beat this guy. He's got name recognition. He was there all the time. He had been there for years. They knew who he was." The President calls me over. He said, "Hey, hey, don't feel 00:30:00bad about that election," he said. He said, uh, "That's just -- you got to start someplace." He said, "That was a good place to start, so don't feel bad about that." He said, "Anything else comes up," he said, "we'll let you know." I said, "OK." I said, "I'd be interested." So I walked away. Uh, about a month later, uh, my business representative called me up, and I had talked to him about getting involved in a union before, and he said they wanted to interview me for an organizer position at District 9.

DRUMMOND: Wow.

BROWN: Yeah. This is by 1977, '78.

DRUMMOND: Wow, OK, yeah.

BROWN: Yeah, yeah.

DRUMMOND: So, so did you have, um -- did you agree to the interview? Did you go ahead with the interview?

BROWN: Oh, yeah, yeah. Me and another fellow interviewed.

DRUMMOND: And did you have -- did you work for District 9 concurrent with still working at Continental Can?

BROWN: Is what?

DRUMMOND: Did you, were you, were you doing District 9 work and your local, and still working at your shop --

BROWN: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

DRUMMOND: -- at the same time?

BROWN: Yeah, yeah.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: Yeah.

DRUMMOND: OK. Um, so what was that like?

BROWN: Well --

DRUMMOND: Were you interested in being an organizer?

BROWN: Yeah, yeah, I was interested.

DRUMMOND: Uh huh.

BROWN: In the meantime --

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: -- the can company business was starting to go south -- not, not, not juris -- or not regionally --

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: -- but it started going downhill. Anheuser-Busch was our principal customer, and they were starting to build their own can factory, and that was going to be the demise of Continental Can, so I quit --

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: -- the can company, and I went to work for Anheuser-Busch, OK.

DRUMMOND: In 1977.

BROWN: '77, yes, OK.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

BROWN: That's when the activity basically occurred about the election.

DRUMMOND: And you're still a member of Local Lodge 41.

BROWN: Oh yeah, still a member of 41.

DRUMMOND: OK, OK, OK.

BROWN: And by that time, that election had been past us, and that other guy won, and, uh, maybe, probably longer than a month -- I guess maybe it was about six months -- (coughs) anyway, they called me after I was only at the brewery for about five months, six months, and they called me up, wanted to interview me for the, uh, organizer position. So I went and interviewed for it, and they said, "Yeah," he said, "we're going to put you on." So he said he'll let 00:32:00me know. Well, we waited, uh, I think another three or four weeks, and then they offered me that job, so I left Anheuser-Busch and came to work for District 9.

DRUMMOND: OK, OK, so you were at Anheuser-Busch for a very short time.

BROWN: Uh, ten months, to be exact.

DRUMMOND: OK, OK. So, um, at any time did you -- were there any strikes or any --

BROWN: Yeah.

DRUMMOND: -- at Continental Can or Anheuser-Busch?

BROWN: Yeah, we had a strike -- uh, we never had a strike. The machinists did. It was a national contract.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: So everybody -- even though we'd turned down the agreement every year, somebody else in another location to vote for it, and we'd wind up accepting it. Steelworkers had the same situation, but I guess in 19, I'm going to say '68, maybe '69, they had a strike there by the steelworkers, and we honored the picket line as the machinists.

DRUMMOND: You did, you did, OK

BROWN: Yeah. So we honored the picket line for about, I think about six weeks, and they got it settled and we went back to work.

DRUMMOND: OK. Um, so then fast forward back to '78, and you have, um, accepted 00:33:00the organizing position --

BROWN: Yes.

DRUMMOND: -- with District 9.

BROWN: Yes.

DRUMMOND: And that must've been a huge -- um, there was such a change in the work, not only from not being on the shop floor anymore --

BROWN: Yes.

DRUMMOND: -- and, but then taking on all these other responsibilities, but also learning organizing --

BROWN: Yes.

DRUMMOND: -- which is, which is tough work.

BROWN: Yes.

DRUMMOND: So can you talk a little bit about the transition from, um, from Anheuser-Busch to District 9 organizer?

BROWN: (clears throat) I was pretty lucky, because when I went out there -- uh, the guy that really kind of sponsored me was a guy named Jim Bagwell, who ultimately was a director of District 9, and I was his administrative assistant until he retired, and then I took over as director. But anyway, back in, uh, in '77, when I left the Brewery and went out to District 9, he was my sponsor, uh, to get me in as an organizer. So I was fortunate that when I went to work there, uh, the director of the union, Joe Cointin at the time, assigned me to work with two other business representatives on the tool-and-die contract for 00:34:00St. Louis, and we had an association with about I guess 15-20 shops that were represented by the association, and we negotiate a three year contract for them. So I worked with these two business reps, who also did organizing, and they showed me how to find the material, read the books, uh, told me to get the pamphlets from the NLRB and all of that.

DRUMMOND: Yeah.

BROWN: And I really got a good tutoring there. Plus, if I didn't have leads on organizing, I'd go help them in contract negotiations. So we kind of worked as a team. We went everyplace together. And, uh, oh, I did that for I guess a year.

DRUMMOND: Do you remember your first organizing campaign?

BROWN: Let me think -- I think I do, but I can't remember the name of the place. I can still see it. It was on Olive Street in Downtown St. Louis. It used to be an old firehouse, and the guy had a machine shop in there. And, uh, I got 00:35:00a call from somebody that they wanted to organize the place, and I went down there, and there was a little tavern on the corner of the street, and I met this guy after hours at the tavern -- this was kind of a bad neighborhood -- so we went in there, and I talked to him about the union, I told him what we thought we could do and get him some protection, because the owner of the company was laying people off indiscriminately and giving more people, this guy over here more money than this guy, and just generally screwing everybody around, and they had no rules or anything like that. So I talked to him, and he, in turn, got a couple more, and the next thing you know we were having weekly meetings at this little bar.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: And, of course, I'm buying drinks and refreshments for everybody. They'd come to the election day. We filed a petition for the election. I guess we waited 40 days, 45 days, got to be election day, we had a big meeting the night before the election, "Man, I'm counting the votes, and, uh, we're going to win. We're going to win." So we get out during election day. Now, I 00:36:00am not permitted to go into the plant during a union election, because I'm the organizer, and we get done with the election, I go over to the building, we go inside, go over to the box, they take it out, dump it on a table, I get two observers -- company had an observer -- uh, they sat down, they start counting the ballots, one for the union, one against, one for the union and one against. It gets down to (laughter) -- we got about even stack here --

DRUMMOND: Wow.

BROWN: -- one for the union, one against. It's a tie. On ties, we lose.

DRUMMOND: Really?

BROWN: Yes, which is totally unfair, but that's the law.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: So we lost the election because the company was able to scare one of our supporters who got in the voting booth, in the privacy of the voting booth and marked no --

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: -- and we lost the election on a tie. And I think even the fellow that was my observer voted against us, because he got scared. (laughter)

DRUMMOND: Wow, wow, aw.

BROWN: I'll never forget that.

DRUMMOND: So District 9, um, how -- what, what area did that cover?

BROWN: Uh, all the greater St. Louis area.

DRUMMOND: OK, all right.

BROWN: Everything except the McDonnell Douglas plant.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: We had everything else.

DRUMMOND: Did that plant eventually become the Boeing plant?

BROWN: Yes.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: Yes.

DRUMMOND: All right. I know someone there --

BROWN: See, originally, if you really go back in history in the early '60s, District 9 had the Boeing Plant, or McDonnell Douglas, plus everything. We had everything in the area.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: In fact, we had 50,000 members back in the late '50s.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: But they had a jurisdiction -- or not jurisdictional problem -- a servicing problem. The guys at District 9 didn't service the McDonnell Douglas people like they should've been serviced, and there was an attempt at a decertification by the McDonnell Douglas place.

DRUMMOND: Wow.

BROWN: The machinists won the election, I understand, by one vote, because I was working at Continental Can when all this occurred. They won by one vote, and 00:38:00they decided to separate -- the McDonnell Douglas plant start their own district, and take it away from District 9, and they did that. That happened in 1967.

DRUMMOND: Um, so you started as an organizer for District 9, and then you moved on to business rep.

BROWN: Yes.

DRUMMOND: How long did it take for you to go from one to the other?

BROWN: They used to have a thing in the constitution, if you started at a beginning rate in six months you get the top rate. So I started as an organizer, which was a lower rate of pay, but one of the guys who handled these tool-and-die shops, uh, wound up getting sick and was off work, and so I wound up taking over his assignment in about four months. And the next thing you know, by the six month time, uh, they moved me right over to be a business representative because he wasn't coming back and there was an opening.

DRUMMOND: OK. And what kind of work did you do as business rep? How did your work change?

BROWN: Well, instead of going out there, trying to get brand new people to join the union -- we still did that, but then I wound up having to service about 30 different contracts.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: OK, so then my deal was to go out there and negotiate new contracts, uh, send the 60 and 30 day notices out to different federal agencies, uh, take proposals from the guys, uh, put them in a formal contract proposal, and meet with the company and negotiate new agreements.

DRUMMOND: OK. And as business rep, were there -- do you remember any particularly difficult negotiations, or maybe, um, difficult negotiations that led to strikes?

BROWN: (laughter) We used to have a lot of those!

DRUMMOND: Was there -- but, but does anything, you know -- ?

BROWN: We, uh, we negotiated a contract --

DRUMMOND: And then --

BROWN: -- in 1980, and the issue in the 1980 agreement was, in the Tool-and-Die Association -- there was about 15 different companies signatory to this agreement -- was that the people wanted to get a dental plan. This is 1980. Some 00:40:00big manufacturers had dental plans. They didn't have it in the job shops. Job shop agreements, only thing those employers wanted to do is give you money on the hour.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: They didn't want to provide insurance. We had it, and we had pensions, but we didn't have a dental plan, and a dental plan at that time was 10 cents an hour. The issue on the bargaining table was 10 cents an hour, and the Job Shop Association met with us, and they offered -- I think they started the offer, and at that time -- there was a lot of inflation the late '70s, OK -- they offered an 8% wage increase across the board. We had had a strike in 1976, uh, four years earlier, and, uh, they was out for quite a while, and they settled a contract for like 6%.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: Well, the inflation ate all that up, and in four years, I mean, just tore it to pieces. So in, in 1980, we're looking at about a 10% increase, just to 00:41:00get back to where we used to be. And they was adamantly resisting us. Well, they finally put the 10% on there, but refused to do the dental plan, which was 10 cents. And the people took a strike over that.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: And we went out on strike for five weeks --

DRUMMOND: Wow, five weeks!

BROWN: -- and the Job Shop Association agreed to put the dental plan in, but not the one we sold, one that they came up with. Still cost a dime, and it was just as good.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: So we bought that and settled the strike.

DRUMMOND: OK, um, what was your strike benefit plan like at that -- ?

BROWN: Uh, Lodge 41 --

DRUMMOND: You said that it would --

BROWN: -- had a $15 a month, uh, a week strike benefit. District 9 had a $25.

DRUMMOND: So a member would get both the $15 and the $25.

BROWN: Yeah, it'd be 20 --

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: -- 15, uh, that'd be 35. And the Grand Lodge had a -- I think at that time was probably $75. So it'd be about $105 a week.

DRUMMOND: OK. Um, and you said it was a nine week -- ?

BROWN: I think it was five weeks.

DRUMMOND: Five weeks.

BROWN: I'm pretty sure it's five.

DRUMMOND: Five weeks. Um --

BROWN: There was an issue when we settled the strike -- the contracts all contain language in there that you earned vacation based on 1/12th for each month worked, so if you worked 12 months you get one year's vacation, OK.

DRUMMOND: And when -- ?

BROWN: And it was -- when, when, when -- how much time you had to work to earn a vacation.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: When we went back to work, the companies tried to deduct the time we was off that one month from the vacation allotment, and we said you couldn't do that because there was no provision to do that under the contract.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: Well, we wound up in an arbitration case, which we won, and they had to pay it.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: But that was the result of that strike.

DRUMMOND: Mm-kay. Um, in 1989 you became the Director of District 9.

BROWN: Yes.

DRUMMOND: And --

BROWN: Oh no, Assistant Director.

DRUMMOND: Assistant Director.

BROWN: Yes

DRUMMOND: OK, Assistant Director. And, um, so from business rep up to Assistant Director, um, what were your new duties as Assistant Director?

BROWN: The reason I became the Assistant Director is because the Director died on the job.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: And the Assistant, you know, under the rules of District 9, the Assistant Director assumed the Director's position, and he had the right to name an assistant, and --

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: -- the guy that -- and he named me as the Assistant. So that -- when I moved into that position, then, I had a bigger office on the other side of the hallway --

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: -- and I -- my responsibility then was to oversee along with the director all the activities of the business reps in the contracts, plus my own assignment.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: I had a slightly reduced number of shops that I handled, but I was also responsible for a lot of stuff that they did, and I also became a trustee on the pension plan and a trustee on the health and welfare program.

DRUMMOND: OK. And were those just automatically, um, assigned by, by being, by default of, of taking that position?

BROWN: Yes.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: Yes.

DRUMMOND: OK. And you were in the, that position for about seven years.

BROWN: Uh, '89 to seventy, '96, yeah.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: And then the director who I worked for, he retired.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: And according to the line of succession, then I became the Director.

DRUMMOND: OK, and, and until the next election.

BROWN: Yes. And then during all that period of time we had elections every four years.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: So only -- in my total career at District 9 I had six elections.

DRUMMOND: Wow!

BROWN: Yeah. Never lost any.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: Never had a competition for any.

DRUMMOND: Yeah?

BROWN: Yeah.

DRUMMOND: Um, and as director. Were there anything -- because that, that leads us out of the late '70s into the early 2000s, so '80s and '90s.

BROWN: Yes.

DRUMMOND: And I think that there were a lot of big changes in the labor movement at that time, a lot of, um, perhaps the, after the PATCO strike it scared a lot of people --

BROWN: Yes.

DRUMMOND: -- uh, a lot of workers -- uh, you know, and I keep -- I know a lot about PATCO just because of my job, and we have the PATCO records, and, and so I know a little bit more about especially the strike, and, you know, leading up to the strike, and, and, um, and then, of course, the, the fallout of the strike. But I, I always like to get, um, folks' opinions on, about how difficult it was to do things like organize and, and strike after that, after PATCO -- if, if, if you, if you have any observations on that.

BROWN: (laughter) Oh yeah, I have a lot of them. Prior to, uh, PATCO, which was 1981 --

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: -- uh, we would go out on organizing drives, and, generally speaking, if you had the majority of those people, the employer would sit down and bargain a meaningful contract, and when you got done you'd sign the agreement and you got a new union job.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: OK. They'd genuinely worked towards getting an agreement, OK. After PATCO, everybody decided, hey, we're not going to agree to anything. I don't care how reasonable you are, I don't care if we go backwards, we aren't agreeing to anything. And consequently, whenever you'd organize something you'd go into dead end negotiations. You'd negotiate, negotiate, negotiate. You could never get a first agreement. And I think it's gotten steadily worse over the years. And the other thing is (clears throat) companies start drawing a harder line because they figure "All we have to do is push them out the door, and then we'll just start hiring replacements, and then they'll eventually go away, because they can't stand it."

DRUMMOND: Right, right.

BROWN: So they start doing that, too.

DRUMMOND: And another thing that happened, I think, during that time is that a lot more jobs started going overseas.

BROWN: Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, they, they, they signed... They signed NAFTA in 1980-, or '93, OK. Now, that was some, some of that going on then, but not 00:47:00until '93.

DRUMMOND: Right, right.

BROWN: My God, '93, leaps and bounds, and we fought tooth and nail to stop that NAFTA bill.

DRUMMOND: And, and did, did the, did the Machinists support Bill Clinton's election? Because that, that came under Bill Clinton's, um --

BROWN: I'll never forget, the AFL-CIO and the Machinists sent the box of pamphlets out to the districts. "Hand these out to all our members at the shop gates. The election's coming up. Man, we got to win the election." OK. We were pushing Bill Clinton.

DRUMMOND: After --

BROWN: Got his picture and Al Gore on the front page.

DRUMMOND: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

BROWN: OK? And it says, "Clinton and Gore were wrong on NAFTA, but everything else is in our corner. Please support," OK? Well, I handed some of those bulletins out, and no sooner did we drop them at one particular shop, the phone rings in the office, and I pick up the phone and this fellow says to me, "What the hell is the matter with you people?" I said, "What are you talking about?" He said, "I just got this pamphlet you guys are handing out here." 00:48:00And he said, "You're going to support that SOB that wants to pass the Mexican Free Trade Agreement?" He said, "We're going to lose every job we got here, and you guys are saying to vote for that guy?! Are you crazy?!" And I was kind of at a loss, because I don't know what to say to the guy.

DRUMMOND: Right, yeah.

BROWN: And I think he was right.

DRUMMOND: But... But I think after, I think after PATCO -- because until that point unions really went with the candidate that, that said that they would do --

BROWN: Oh, we, yeah --

DRUMMOND: -- they would do, that they would do more.

BROWN: Well, we always backed them, yeah.

DRUMMOND: And, and --

BROWN: Democrats, primarily.

DRUMMOND: Primarily, but Republicans sometimes.

BROWN: Oh, very, very few.

DRUMMOND: Very few.

BROWN: Very few.

DRUMMOND: But, but then I think with Reagan, I think he, he drew such a line in the sand.

BROWN: Oh, he killed us!

DRUMMOND: A-and, and that -- and perhaps unions didn't know, even if they were getting maybe not a great deal from a Democratic candidate -- NAFTA, for instance -- um --

BROWN: They didn't think it could be as bad as him, you're right.

DRUMMOND: Yeah, they -- it couldn't -- as, as, as bad as that, that could be. 00:49:00I mean, who else, who else is there? We can't -- you can't create your own --

BROWN: Well -- and that's what happened.

DRUMMOND: Yeah.

BROWN: But I'm telling you what, this guy told me that and I thought, "Well, I can't say he's not right, because he is right."

DRUMMOND: Right. Well, and was there a lot of membership pushback on that at the time?

BROWN: Somewhat.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: Not as much as you'd think. Everybody was pretty disgusted about that.

DRUMMOND: Right, and --

BROWN: 'Cause he did, he pushed that. And that was before NAFTA got passed, you know. That was in '92 --

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

BROWN: -- the election was.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: Yeah. And then he turns around and passes it, and goodbye jobs.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: I mean, if the employer wanted to stonewall you, he threatens now to move to Mexico. So if that doesn't get it, we push you out on strike, and if that don't get it, he does close down, move to Mexico!

DRUMMOND: Right.

BROWN: Makes a lot more money, and he don't have to pay you anymore.

DRUMMOND: Were there any, um, were there any companies in your district that you know went to Mexico after the, after NAFTA was passed?

BROWN: (pause) I don't think there was a great deal, but, but the ones that it was affected because a competitor was in Mexico and then they couldn't compete anymore, and they either shut the doors or they started bargaining bad contracts and forced you on the street.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: Yeah. To name a specific company, I can't do that right now because that's some years ago, but...

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: Yeah.

DRUMMOND: OK. Um, is there anything else about your time with District 9 from '78 to 2003 that you can reflect back on? Anything else you want to say about that time?

BROWN: It was a good, uh -- it was a good 25 years.

DRUMMOND: Yeah?

BROWN: It was really good. We, uh, we did a lot of good things there. We even established a retiree healthcare program for retirees at one point.

DRUMMOND: Oh, excellent.

BROWN: They had to pay a portion of their, uh, pensions to get it, but we put that in effect, and, uh, I guess consistently probably for 14 years we increased 00:51:00our benefits for the retiree plan, uh, because everything seemed to be going pretty good, uh, until the last few years. And I'll never forget one thing that happened: uh, Clinton did, uh, initiate a national health insurance program.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: Hillary was backing the program, and at that time on the health and welfare program, as a trustee we were seeing 10, 12, 15% increases every year. That means our business reps had to go out and negotiate contracts and get enough money to pay for the health and welfare agreement.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: And there's only so much in the pot you can use, and we were constantly putting more money into health and welfare. Well anyway, when they initiated that bill, the health and welfare costs stopped the increases for I think it was 1980 -- I'm trying to think of the year that happened now -- oh, '90, '93 I guess, the across the board increase in the healthcare, which had been running 00:52:0010-15%, was 2%, just a 2% increase for '93, and they're still beating a drum to try to pass the healthcare bill, and all the unions are working towards it. So '94 rolls around, and the healthcare increase across the board, percent-and-a-half, maybe 2%. In '95 they had those commercials in the TV scaring everybody they couldn't get their own doctor, and this was a bad deal for everybody, and you was going to get screwed out of your healthcare costs, and they about put the nail through the heart of the healthcare plan, and the increase was about 3%. And in '96, now that it's dead in the water, the healthcare cost is 15% again, and it's kept on doing that ever since.

DRUMMOND: Mm, mm. In 2003, you became Administrative Assistant, um, to Alex Bay --

BROWN: Yes

DRUMMOND: -- who was then the President, uh, Vice President --

BROWN: Yes.

DRUMMOND: -- of the Midwest territory.

BROWN: Yes.

DRUMMOND: Uh, tell me -- because that was a big move up, and that put you in charge of a much larger --

BROWN: Yes.

DRUMMOND: -- or, or y-, or you were part, part of administrating a much larger, um, area --

BROWN: Yes.

DRUMMOND: -- at that point. What, what all did the Mid -- Midwest territory cover? What all states?

BROWN: We covered, uh, nine states.

DRUMMOND: Nine states.

BROWN: All the Midwestern nine states.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: But North Dakota, South Dakota, Nebraska, Iowa, Wisconsin, Indiana, Missouri, Illinois -- I'm missing somebody else. Oh, Minnesota.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: Yeah.

DRUMMOND: Um --

BROWN: I knew there was nine. (laughter)

DRUMMOND: And, and so how did your work change, like change moving from director of District 9 up to, um, Administrative Assistant for the, for the Midwest territory? And too, tell me a little bit about, I guess, whatever -- I mean, certainly doing the good work you were doing in, in District 9, you sort of caught the eye of folks above you. So what were the relationships like f-from you to, um, further up in the union? Like who were you, who did you work with?

BROWN: OK, well, uh, at District 9, uh, my boss was Jim Bagwell. He was the Director --

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: -- and he was on the law committee for the international union. That's the committee that makes laws for the convention to consider every four years, and changes in the Constitution. He had been on that, and historically somebody from District 9 wound up in that position normally. OK, so in 1996, when he retired and I became the Director, I got appointed to the law committee, also. So I worked hand-in-hand with the executive council every four years, and then 00:55:00in the interim periods during conventions, putting the laws together and so on and so forth. So when you're in there, it's an intense activity, I guess, drawing up new laws and changes in the Constitution and making sure that they're administered properly and so on. So you get to know a lot of people on the executive council from that, including the President and the General Secretary-Treasurer. So after workin', uh, in that, Alex Bay, who was the Vice President Midwest, who I'd worked with since he took that position in '96 --

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: -- uh, he knew me, and so he asked me to become his assistant in 2002. So I decided to do that. Well, now -- then the first thing I had to do was move to Chicago from St. Louis, which was my home, so I did that. My wife and I was going to probably buy another house anyway, so we wound up moving to Chicago and selling everything out in St. Louis. So we got up there, and then, uh, I kind of 00:56:00took care of the office duties, and the rest of the Grand Lodge representatives that worked out of the Midwest office, and, and satellite places, while he was out on the road taking care of the bigger picture of activities for the international union and, and, uh, concerning the Midwest. So that, and then I would go on some, uh, different trips with him, and as the Vice President you have to go to like the Illinois State Council of Machinists, the Minnesota State Council of Machinists, the Iowa State Council of Machinists, the North Dakota State Council of Machinists, the South Dakota State Council of Machinists --

DRUMMOND: So you had a lot more travel.

BROWN: A lot of travel! Now, he was doing all that --

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: -- but I would do some of it, because he couldn't be every place at once --

DRUMMOND: Right.

BROWN: -- so I would get some of that. So I'd have to go to these different places and, and do this. Well, I had already been officer in the Missouri State Council of Machinists, so I knew what the, how the councils worked and what you had to do. So I would go there, and one of the goals that we kind of set when he was there, and when I was the assistant, is that if you're going to have a 00:57:00State Council of Machinists, you ought to do it during a legislative session of the State House, and you ought to be on the capital grounds lobbying for bills that's going to affect our people. Prior to that, unfortunately they had a lot of State Council meetings when a session wasn't even in, in session.

DRUMMOND: Hmm.

BROWN: And you didn't see anybody! You got there and you talked about political action, but there was nobody to enforce it, so you didn't accomplish nothing. So one thing we made sure that we would do is change those structures in every one of the states, that, uh, we would do state councils in conjunction with the operating session and make some changes, which we was able to accomplish.

DRUMMOND: OK. Um, and what were some of the other responsibilities you had?

BROWN: Uh, kind of oversee, uh, I guess the different contracts that was negotiated throughout the area and offer any assistance or help --

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: -- plus work with the Grand Lodge representatives to o-- offer assistance 00:58:00and help to the different locals and districts under our jurisdiction.

DRUMMOND: OK, and you were only in that position for three short years until you...

BROWN: Uh, just a year.

DRUMMOND: Just a --

BROWN: No, no, as the Assistant --

DRUMMOND: OK. Oh, as the Administrative Assistant --

BROWN: -- I was only in there about ten months, yeah.

DRUMMOND: Yeah, ten months. And then, um, Alex Bay --

BROWN: He retired.

DRUMMOND: -- he retired, and --

BROWN: And I got that job.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: So then I was doing all the stuff that he used to do.

DRUMMOND: OK. And --

BROWN: Yeah.

DRUMMOND: -- you pulled in -- who did you, um, get in for your -- ?

BROWN: I pulled in my Administrative Assistant from St. Louis, Phil Gruber, who was then a Directive --

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: -- director.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: So he came up there and joined me, and we worked together again.

DRUMMOND: OK. And for the, um, for being, uh, like Administrative Assistant for the, for the, um, Midwest to the Vice President, uh, there's some positions you have to be elected, and then it sounded like you had to be -- you were interviewed for organizer for District 9, so was this an interview process, as well, or, or had you reached a point where, um, you could just be appointed to -- ?

BROWN: Oh, no, no, I was interviewed, and then --

DRUMMOND: You were interviewed, OK, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).

BROWN: -- if you get elected to the, uh, Executive Council, you have to get -- you got to get interviewed, and you've got to get the OK from all the members of the Executive Council.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: In other words, they have to be aware of who you're, what you're doing here.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: Somebody can bring your name up, but --

DRUMMOND: Yeah.

BROWN: -- if you haven't got support of everybody else, you're not going to, you're not going to make that.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: Yeah.

DRUMMOND: I wasn't sure what the process was that --

BROWN: Yeah, that's how it works.

DRUMMOND: -- that far ahead. OK, um, well, is there anything that stuck out about your time as Vice President of the Midwest territory?

BROWN: (laughter) I guess a lot of things that --

DRUMMOND: Yeah. Did --

BROWN: We did a lot of traveling in that time, yeah.

DRUMMOND: A lot, mm-hmm --

BROWN: And I seen the union change a lot in that time.

DRUMMOND: How so?

BROWN: Uh, we started losing members, more and more and more --

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: -- because of these trade agreements that got passed --

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: -- that we argued against before. And then, uh, uh, generally a fear of people out there in the, in, as the economy started tightening up or more jobs leave the country, people were less apt to sign an authorization accord or get involved in organizing directives. They were afraid they're going to get fired.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: And then the Labor Board process is so slow that it's almost discouraging if you do get a, a bunch of people and they want to fight you, they put up so many roadblocks that the people give up hope, and then you never get organized. And it got gradually worse every year. Um, and you don't see no light at the tunnel.

DRUMMOND: Yeah. And you, and you, you said while we, while we were getting ready for the interview that if you -- that organizing is, is devastating.

BROWN: It is.

DRUMMOND: And, and, and I suspect the other end of that devastation is just jobs going away. There aren't even people there to organize.

BROWN: Well, that's right.

DRUMMOND: Yeah.

BROWN: Jobs going away, people are scared to death to talk to you. And the devastating part is if you got a place and you know you can make a difference --

DRUMMOND: Mm.

BROWN: -- if they just stick together and don't get weak knees.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: The problem is, that don't happen.

DRUMMOND: Right, right.

BROWN: If it does, we win, we're able to put good contracts in place, we're 01:01:00genuinely able to bring these people up, but when they get scared and they, they take a hike on ya, uh, I haven't figured out how to get them back. Uh, I don't think anybody else has, either.

DRUMMOND: In, in the long run, how do you see that sort of decrease in, in ability to organize, but also just a decrease in people, bodies to actually go organize, because there are fewer and fewer jobs? How do you see that affecting unions in the long run? Like what do you, or what have you seen?

BROWN: I used to tell all the people when I was at District 9 and also in the Midwest as Vice President that things will get bad enough one of these days that the people will be breaking our doors down trying to organize. We won't have to go out there looking for them. They'll be beating our doors down.

DRUMMOND: Yeah?

BROWN: Well, guess what?

DRUMMOND: What?

BROWN: Things are bad enough.

DRUMMOND: Bad enough.

BROWN: But they're not breaking any doors down.

DRUMMOND: What do you -- why do you think that is?

BROWN: Well, I guess they're not bad enough yet after all.

DRUMMOND: Mm.

BROWN: They're going to get worse, I guess. And when it gets so low that they 01:02:00can't stand it anymore, then somebody's going to think, "You know what? I've got nothing to lose here. It's either I'm going to lose anyway, or I'm going to do something about it."

DRUMMOND: Right.

BROWN: And that's when they stand together and make a change.

DRUMMOND: Right. I talked to someone last night -- I forget who it is exactly now, but they said, "I work with a lot of young folks, and they don't think that their benefits can be taken away, and they don't think that their bargaining rights can be taken away, and they," you know, maybe, maybe younger folks who are in unions, who's never, who have never really had to fight, they, they may be signed in a shop that's got a strong contract, good negotiations, and they, and they would never -- they, they never worked during a time when any of that had to be fought for.

BROWN: I, I don't, I don't agree with that.

DRUMMOND: You don't?

BROWN: I'll tell you what -- no, and I'll tell you what: I, I know a lot of people. I got two sons, but they're in their forties now, but I guess they're not considered that young, but there's a lot of them that I think, uh, young people today I think do see the value of unions and do see the value of sticking together, and do see that they're not getting a fair shake. In 01:03:00most cases, they're not doing as well as their parents done. And if they're working in jobs, it's menial jobs. They spend a lot of money in college tuitions and so on, and borrowed money to go to get education --

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: -- and they get out of school and there ain't no jobs. Uh, minimum wage jobs or, or service jobs that don't pay any money. And I think they're getting to think, "Hey, we've got to do something about it, and no one's going to give it to us unless we do it ourselves." So I, I don't believe those people are out there -- young ones today, especially -- think that, you know, somebody's going to -- they're, they're secure. They're not secure. And I think as time goes on you're going to see more young people coming forward.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: Uh, I would like to see us in this organization hire young people, like 20 year olds --

DRUMMOND: Really?

BROWN: -- to be our frontline organizers.

DRUMMOND: You think, you think they could do --

BROWN: Because they can equate to the younger guys.

DRUMMOND: Yeah.

BROWN: If I, if I walked in a shop, I can have all the knowledge in the world, but boy, they see the gray hair and right away, you know, they don't listen to this guy. You know, he's in the past. You send a 20 year old in there and he tells you what you can do by simply sticking together, that's all you have to do, you can change the world, and if anybody don't believe that, look at the Civil Rights Movement!

DRUMMOND: Right.

BROWN: That's all they did is stick together! And they didn't get scared. They got scared, and they didn't say, "Well, you know, I'm too afraid to do this," or "I'm not going to put myself on the line to make a change." They never did that. They put themselves on the line. Guess what? They changed the world.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: A hundred years of activity, they changed it, and they did it, what, five short years? Maybe not 100%, but my God, it's 100% different than it used to be. And that's sticking together.

DRUMMOND: Yeah, sticking together.

BROWN: That's what you have to do.

DRUMMOND: That, that would be your, that would be your advice.

BROWN: Yeah. And I -- yeah, and I think --

DRUMMOND: Stick together.

BROWN: -- a lot of young people know that.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: Maybe we need some kind of national leader -- and I've thought of this before -- why don't they step up to the plate and start talking about some of these things? The, the, the big recent housing crisis that we had in the US with the big banks, where was the labor union movement when this was going on? What did we say? Where was our national spokesman saying, "How the hell did this happen? And why do we let these positions or these programs continue when it's killing everybody in the country, the people we represent?" And for some reason, you didn't hear that. Either that or they shut us off, I don't know, but -- You know, I admire Rich Trumka for the job that he's done, but I didn't see him during this thing.

DRUMMOND: Right.

BROWN: I never seen a word about him.

DRUMMOND: So perhaps a return to more grassroots type organizing?

BROWN: Well, I don't think we ever got away from that.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: I don't think.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: I mean, that's where it's happening at. We should be thinking this all the time. I mean, it affects everybody.

DRUMMOND: Um, you mentioned in, in the last little bit that we've talked about, and something that I didn't visit early on: when did you get married?

BROWN: Oh, I got married in 1965.

DRUMMOND: 1965.

BROWN: I was still an apprentice machinist at the can company.

DRUMMOND: OK. And you have two kids in their forties, two sons.

BROWN: Yes, eleven months apart.

DRUMMOND: Eleven months apart.

BROWN: Yeah.

DRUMMOND: Um, and, um, especially once you were busier with District 9 and then, um, became, um, the Administrative Assistant to Alex Bay, uh, can you... Your, your work got busier, you were gone more, you were, you were doing more. Um, can I, may I ask about how, the effect that had on your family life?

BROWN: Yeah, OK. Now, we always did a certain amount of traveling with District 01:07:009 because there was different meetings you had to go to, staff conferences, uh, state council meetings, legislative meetings, so on and so forth, so we traveled quite a bit then. Uh, when my wife was a stay at home mom she didn't work.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: Fortunately, I made enough money that we could do that, uh, so we was pretty fortunate there. A lot of people today unfortunately don't have that, the luxury. Uh, so she was there basically while I was out running around, taking care of business, basically. Uh, as they got older, and then she started going with me on some of these trips --

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: -- and then, uh, especially when I got to be the Vice President -- I mean, that was traveling three weeks a month --

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: -- uh, and she went on a lot of those trips, you know. But she was always pretty good about that. She never complained about it. I mean, we've been married 40, 46 years, uh, and I've been gone a lot.

DRUMMOND: A lot.

BROWN: No question about that. You know, night, on night meetings and stuff like that, and weekends and stuff, and never heard her complain, never.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: So I've been pretty lucky.

DRUMMOND: And she liked traveling with you?

BROWN: Oh yeah, she liked it, yeah.

DRUMMOND: OK. Excellent. Um...

BROWN: Al--although she got burned out, I think, in the last -- We traveled so much in the Vice President's job --

DRUMMOND: Really?

BROWN: -- when we retired, she decided, "Hey, uh, I don't miss it." (laughter)

DRUMMOND: And did you retire to Chicago where y'all had been living at that time?

BROWN: I did, but, uh, with the intent of moving back to St. Louis --

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: -- because I had lived there all my life, except for the time in Chicago.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: Which I had a great time in Chicago. I liked it.

DRUMMOND: Yeah.

BROWN: Yeah, it was interesting.

DRUMMOND: Um -- here it als -- uh, I have, uh, information that from '85 to 2010 you were the President of the Union Tool-and-Die Conference, and is that the Machinists Tool-and-Die Conference?

BROWN: Yes.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: Yes.

DRUMMOND: Tell me a little bit about your work with that part of the organization.

BROWN: OK, uh, the Tool-and-Die Conference was started, I think, in 1937, and we were chartered, and it's, uh, the only chartered conference of the International Union, and that conference was supposed to be established once a year, and we would invite delegates from the machining, tool-and-die industry to 01:09:00attend a conference, and, uh, we'd hold a conference in different cities, normally provide a tour of a tool-and-die shop, or maybe an aircraft manufacturer with a tool and dye center in it, uh, probably bring some industry expert in to speak on trends and, uh, things that were pertaining to tool-and-die work, and then we'd invite delegates from all over the country and they'd participate, and we'd go there. It was generally a three day conference. Uh, we had a President, Secretary Treasurer, Vice President, and, uh -- well, four Vice Presidents, you -- generally from regions throughout the United States so that we covered a broad base of places. And, uh, I ran that conference from 1985 to, as I told you, 2010. We, uh, suspended it in 2002 because of, uh, I guess severe economic problems, and, uh, every -- the downsizing of the industry -- they started shipping a lot of this manufacturing 01:10:00overseas, and we built dies here to make it. So that industry kind of got hurt bad, big time. Uh, and it's still not recovered really, although it's doing better than it was.

DRUMMOND: And then, um, '96, '97, which would've been when you were Director of District 9, you were also the Secretary Treasurer of the Missouri State Council of Machinists.

BROWN: Yes, yeah, and we would go to conduct meetings there, uh, usually legislative sessions, uh, in Jefferson City, which is capital of Missouri, and, uh, we used to run a big two day conference in, in, uh, the capital city, and we would invite members from the UFCW, Steelworkers, uh, Hotel and Restaurant Workers, and they'd all come in and meet with us, and we would get a group of very -- oh, Christ, five, 600 people. And we would go to the Capitol and lobby on issues that affect workers.

DRUMMOND: OK. And, um -- Also during your time as Director of District 9 you were, um, President of the Midwest States Conference of Machinists.

BROWN: Same thing, only a larger scale than the State Council.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: We would cover the nine states, and that was a nine state conference of all the political action throughout the nine states.

DRUMMOND: OK. Um, are you, um, active with any of the retirees groups, a machinist retiree group?

BROWN: I attend the meetings, but I haven't, uh, taken an active role in it, no.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: Not that I'm burned out, it's just that you, you do this and you plan things, and you're the responsible party for 40 years, and at some point in time you think, you know what? I don't want to be responsible for that no more.

DRUMMOND: Yeah.

BROWN: I don't want to have to plan these meetings and worry about who's going to attend and who isn't, and make sure that all the arrangements are made and all that. I did all that.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: So I'm taking a break you might say now.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: That's not to say that I didn't hear Charlie [Micallef] say the other day, you know, they're always looking for people to help them out, and I know in St. Louis the guy that's the President of the current Retirees Club is 91 years old. He's giving the position up. Now, there's a guy that used to work for me that's going to take that job over. Uh, I might start helping out a little more there.

DRUMMOND: OK, all right.

BROWN: I don't want to --

DRUMMOND: There was no pressure with that question, it was just I was --

BROWN: Oh, I know, but I don't -- I, I, I, I kind of feel bad because I'm still got good health, basically, and, uh, I can still talk, and that's what these jobs are.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: You got to be able to talk. So I don't want to be shying out of a responsibility that somebody's got to do, you know.

DRUMMOND: OK. Um, you were also, while you were, um, Vice President of the Midwest territory -- or I guess it overlapped from your work with District 9 over to the Midwest territory -- you were a Board member of the United Way of St. Louis.

BROWN: Yeah, that was from District 9. That was --

DRUMMOND: And what kind of work did you do with them?

BROWN: Well, that was a -- you'd sit on their Board, and the Board would make 01:13:00decisions about where to allocate money --

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: -- and what the needs were in the St. Louis area, and then encourage fundraising and help in fundraising activities to support the United Way.

DRUMMOND: Well, did they have, um -- does, uh, St. Louis have like a labor outreach --

BROWN: They do.

DRUMMOND: -- component of their United Way?

BROWN: They do.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: And one of our members from District 9 is currently an officer in that, yes.

DRUMMOND: OK, OK. Um, and you are a current member of the Community Advisory Council and the Missouri Foundation for Health.

BROWN: Correct.

DRUMMOND: And what do you do as a member of -- ?

BROWN: As an Advisory Committee member -- the Board consists of, uh, uh, 13 members, and they make all the decisions with regard to allocation of a multibillion dollar fund, over $1 billion, to charitable organizations that take care of indigent people in the St. Louis community, and throughout 84 counties in Missouri.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: Now, I got appointed by that by Governor Jay Nixon, who at the time was the Attorney General, and the reason this foundation got set up in the first place back in 1991, Blue Cross Blue Shield wanted to take that company private, and it was originally established for the benefit of the community.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: So the Attorney General, Jay Nixon, filed a lawsuit against him, said you can't take public money and make it private for your own use. You got to spend it on the public. He was successful in winning the lawsuit, so instead of the Blue Cross Blue Shield people taking all the money they set up this foundation, Missouri Foundation of Health, with their money. And they put the first Board in effect, and a Community Advisory Council, which reports back to the Board of areas where this money should be spent at, and I got asked to be on the committee right shortly after I retired from the Vice President's job in 2'06, or '07 I guess it was. And he asked me if I'd do that, and I said, "Well, I'll do it." So I got on there. And then he finally turned the, uh, 01:15:00whole operation over to the Board, and the Board now conducts their own elections.

DRUMMOND: Right.

BROWN: So one of my principal subjects is I interview all the candidates for the Board positions, along with some other people.

DRUMMOND: OK. Um, and here it says that you received the St. Louis Labor Council Community Services Award. Tell me about that organization, or the, or the group that, that gave you that.

BROWN: (clears throat) That's a -- there used to be a guy that worked for the St. Louis Labor Council called Andy Owens, and the guy was a gregarious person, and he was always in the forefront. If somebody needed something done, you got a hold of Andy Owens, he knew some way to get it done, OK. And he was always out there with a helping hand for everybody. He was just a, a friend's friend, basically.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: Well anyway, he passed away, and they established this award for people that are out in the community trying to change things for the better, uh, 01:16:00through whatever they do in their, their position as a union leader, fundraiser, whatever else. So they asked, or named me as a recipient of that award in '97, which was pretty nice honor.

DRUMMOND: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)

BROWN: I got to tell you something else: we had the largest attendance --

DRUMMOND: Yeah?

BROWN: -- of anybody that ever got the award.

DRUMMOND: OK, for you?

BROWN: Yes.

DRUMMOND: And, and what were some of the things they named in, uh, in, uh, giving the award to you? What were some of your accomplishments?

BROWN: I guess my activity on the Board for the United Way, plus leading the District 9, and the different fundraisers, and, I mean, we was always in the forefront of everything that happened in the area.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: Uh, if you got to have something done and you need to count on people, you -- good old District 9, so we always had somebody do it.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: I thought it was nice. It was kind of a nice time.

DRUMMOND: Yeah, no, it's always --

BROWN: I was very impressed when they -- and it's also a big fundraiser, see --

DRUMMOND: Oh, good.

BROWN: -- because it helps, it helps fund other projects that the Labor Council might have. So we raised more money when I was [a guide?] than anybody else ever had.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: So I thought it was good, yeah.

DRUMMOND: Yeah. Um, what have been some of the biggest challenges particular to the work you've done?

BROWN: The biggest challenge probably is trying to grow the organization, get new members, make us bigger, more effective. That's always the challenge.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: Um, although I think everything's a challenge, but I always had a good outlook about that. Uh, I never let any of this stuff get me so weighted down you couldn't function, or you --

DRUMMOND: Right.

BROWN: -- start pulling your hair out thinking, "What am I going to do next?"

DRUMMOND: Right.

BROWN: I never got like that. You know...

DRUMMOND: It sounds, it sounds like you have a nice distance from it that while you were active and participated that it was still something you kind of kept from --

BROWN: I was able to do this. Now, this is a secret -- now, I'm pretty fortunate to be able to do this -- I could always go to bed at night, and I didn't have all this stuff running around in my head a thousand miles an hour.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: I was able to turn it off and go to sleep.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: Now, when I get up the next day, yeah, I turn it back on, and what had to 01:18:00be done, we done. And I always found my best opportunity is when there's a lot of things coming at you, you start doing them.

DRUMMOND: Yeah.

BROWN: OK? You don't sit around waiting about it, worrying about it, thinking, "Oh, how am I going to get this?" or "How am I going to get that?" You start doing them.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: And the next thing you know, you're looking behind you and they're all passed, and you're still going. So that's always worked pretty good. I'm happy to say that.

DRUMMOND: OK. And, um, we talked a little bit earlier in the interview about, um, your grandfather being a role model in terms, in terms of union. He was a Typographical --

BROWN: Yes.

DRUMMOND: -- a member of the Typographical Union. But can you speak to any other role models you've had during your career, and, and how they influenced you? because...

BROWN: When I first went to work at Continental Can Company, uh, there was a guy who was a shop steward in the Steelworkers.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: His name was Norman [Monzinga]. I'll never forget the guy. And for some reason he liked me when I first started there. I was 18 years old. And, uh, next 01:19:00thing you know, me and him was kind of palling around together. We would get a beer or something sometimes after work, uh, and he was a shop steward. Now, he used to tell me about different things that the union accomplished at the can company. Boy, I, I loved it. I mean, I thought it was really interesting. You know, I could, I could see where here you're all working in this factory and somebody's out there trying to make things better, and this is how they did it. And he told me that. And I always liked the guy. Uh, and you could go in there with any kind of problem, uh, and he would give you some kind of answer -- may not be right all the time, but you'd get an answer. He never shied away from a problem, and he wasn't scared of anything.

DRUMMOND: Really?

BROWN: "Throw it at me, I can handle it."

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: And another guy was my former boss, Jim Bagwell.

DRUMMOND: Jim Bagwell.

BROWN: Yeah. Just an excellent manner. Uh, heart as big as gold, or big as life, and a guy that had an uncanny ability to judge somebody's character. I mean, 01:20:00it was the best you ever saw it. He could sit down with somebody in 20 minutes, and the guy would walk away, and he could tell you whether this guy was an upstanding person, whether he would treat you right or he wouldn't, and he was just good at it, and he had a good sense about that. Yeah, and I always liked him. He was pretty thorough. He was a good business rep, first one that -- one of the first I had.

DRUMMOND: OK. Um, what have you found most satisfying about your work in, in the Union?

BROWN: Well, it's the best thing that ever happened to me.

DRUMMOND: Yeah?

BROWN: It really is. I mean, it's, it's a good job. Uh, you have an opportunity to make a difference in somebody's life and help them out when they need it, and a lot of people today -- probably more than when I started -- needs more help. I was fortunate. I got a good job at a good unionized company that somebody before me got to that condition.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: OK. If I can just leave this life and say, "Well, I'd change some places like that and make it better for them," then I'm going to be happy.

DRUMMOND: OK. Is there anything else you'd like to share with us about your career? Anything we didn't cover?

BROWN: I'll tell you another guy I always admired -- two more.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: One was the Vice President for the Midwest territory, Tom Docey, who wound up as the Vice President, and I always liked him. He used to be our mentor on the Tool-and-Die Conference when I first took it over, and I always admired him because he was a straight shooter and an honorable guy, and I don't think he ever forgot where he came from. And the other one would be George Kourpias.

DRUMMOND: Really?

BROWN: Oh, absolutely. And I'll tell you what else: Bill Winpisinger was a great labor leader for this organization, and he did a lot of wonderful things, OK, but I'll tell you what: George Kourpias kind of worked in his shadow, and George was a great labor leader, too, but he did it in a different style. George is more personable, and I think George you can almost detect he has a genuine feeling for anything you come to him with.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

BROWN: You know, where I don't know that Winpisinger had that. And I knew him pretty well, too, uh --

DRUMMOND: And different leaders have -- I mean, all people have different approaches.

BROWN: They do, they do.

DRUMMOND: It doesn't mean they don't all have the same goal ultimately.

BROWN: No, that's right, that's right, that's right.

DRUMMOND: They, they just have, you know --

BROWN: Yeah.

DRUMMOND: -- you know, their personality can come through. OK. Well, I think that's it. Um, thank you so much for sitting with me today.

BROWN: You think that did it? (laughter)

DRUMMOND: I, I -- unless you can think of anything else we need to --

BROWN: I can't think of nothing, no.

DRUMMOND: OK.

BROWN: Yeah.

DRUMMOND: OK. I appreciate your time.

BROWN: Well, you got to do any follow-up, or do you know?

DRUMMOND: Um --

BROWN: Well, you got to look at it, I guess.

DRUMMOND: Yeah, yeah, and, and we'll, we'll talk about that later, but, um --

BROWN: OK.

DRUMMOND: But if not, uh, I do appreciate your time today.

BROWN: OK, well thank you, Traci. I thought it was fun.