James Herbert "Herb" Butler oral history interview, 1996-08-03

HERB BUTLER: There's no one from labor, um, that served on the Board of Natural Resources. I had a discussion with Governor Miller in that respect. And, I would hope that he would appoint somebody from labor. Labor needs a voice on most committees of this state.

CHRIS LUTZ: Mmhmm

BUTLER: Working people need a voice. Again with a number of issues. When we speak about labor, talking about working people, minimum wage, when you talk about minimum wage and clean air, it affects all people

LUTZ: Mmhmm

BUTLER: All working people. It's not just organized labor. Organized labor has been the spokesperson or spokespersons for different groups in all. It's the only voice that they, that they have.

LUTZ: Mmhmm

BUTLER: When you have any board or state government or any agency that's completely dominated by manufacturing representatives, or business owners or professional people, then that working person's voice is not being heard.

LUTZ: Um, what…you've told me about some moments that you could live again, this award from the State of Israel, aaahh, the dedication of the union hall which must have been a real charge to have your parents, and your, uh, son, and family. What moments, though, would you not live again? What would you, what would you do over again if you could do something over again?

BUTLER: Well, that would be hard to say, Chris. I don't really belie…..I believe I would try to get more people to understand just what labor is all 00:02:00about. I would try to have been, uh, in the forefront of more social activities and things to help this country keep good jobs and, you know, get more active in politics. Working people are just not, um, not in…they don't trust politicians. When you get out and you support somebody for a political office and then they fail to support the position of working people, uh, they, they think that I am misleading them when I get up there and say, 'Look, this is the person that is going to help.' And I really am misleading them, if that 00:03:00person does not come through. I can recall, ah, uh, when the Volkswagen first came into this country. And, um, most people weren't concerned with it. They said, "We've got the market, we sell more than anybody else." I said, 'Well, we are either going to lower our standards if they take over some of our possessions and we lose jobs, or we are going to raise their standards.' Now, they were building the Volkswagen and started building it down in Mexico. And, and, um, the environmental standards were less there than in the United States, so they could, they could produce a car cheaper and wages were cheaper and all. I don't think I put enough emphasis or was able to get through to the people that, that was going to be a real concern. I've tried to relate to our membership, and every group that I was privileged to speak to, that there is 00:04:00only two ways to go and that's either up or down; there's only two ways. The status quota is not getting you anywhere. The cost of living eats up your wages and things like that. You got to be able to keep a grasp of the economic conditions around, you know. And, uh, the first Volkswagen that I saw was with an insurance salesman that came to my house. And, I lived at the time about a mile from the Doraville plant. I was, um, there and the guy pulled up my yard in a Volkswagen. He said, 'I would like to sell you some insurance.' I said, 'Well I don't think I'll buy any American insurance, I think I'll go to Germany and buy it.' And he says "What are you talking about?" 'That damn little automobile that you've got. Built over in Germany, and I'm 00:05:00representing the people that work in that plant that you just came by on the way to my house.' And, uh, he said, 'Oh, I get your point.' I said, 'Well, if you buy an American automobile, preferably a General Motors one, and come back and see me, I might talk to you about it.' There's been forty million automobiles that's been imported into this country. Forty, forty million automobiles. You're talking about billions and billions of dollars and with the trade imbalance with Japan, just for example: uh, they, they're able to take our jobs, and they are able to compete cheaper than what we can produce. And, when they're, when we're doing that, there is no wonder that we got the budget problem that we have today, and the national debt that is in the 00:06:00trillions of dollars. Those jobs alone, if they were protected with fair trade, then the United States would of had us a balanced budget a long time ago with NAFTA. We opposed NAFTA because Mexico has lax environmental laws, they have lower wages. And, uh, if you see what they've built in the valley, the Villadora valley, the plants, uh. It's a shame how those people are treated in Mexico. I've been down there several times. And, I hope that our union, or the AFL-CIO when they get new leadership, will go into Mexico and try to change the Mexican labor movement which is led by a person that's ninety-three years old. 00:07:00He's ninety-three years old. He's, he's, uh, senile, he's unable to get anything done for the working people in Mexico. And again their laws are a lot different than ours. When you make laws to where labor unions are handcuffed and are strangled from being able to properly represent the people, then you are going -- to have the kind of conditions that are in Mexico or some other third world country.

LUTZ: Yeah, uh…

BUTLER: But our union always -- fair trade is good. We have got to be able to, and we can, compete with the whole world if there's fair trade, and we don't lose our economic base, which I'm afraid we are going to. All you got to do is look up and down this highway right here and you'll see what is happening just in Doraville, Georgia. Money from overseas is buying up businesses.

LUTZ: Mmhmmm

BUTLER: You know?

LUTZ: Now, you have been in a position as international rep and then district leader for ages over a wide variety of plants right here in the area. To see a difference in the South from the rest of the country for auto workers and truck builders and so on. You talked about one of the differences is that you had a fight in 1960 to start making GM make…have more equitable hiring policies. Do you think that there are any other differences between the South and the rest of the country?

BUTLER: Well…

LUTZ: Speaking of third world countries [laughter]BUTLER: There's plants moving to the South now because of right-to-work laws, lower wages of more lax 00:09:00environmental laws, uh, more manpower selection. When you can go out and select people that you want to like Nissan did. In order to hire three or four thousand people, you have twenty-five thousand applications, you can pick out whoever you want to, uh, to work in the plants. There's a, there's a difference and that's why plants are coming south and leaving the North which I think is wrong. The industrial north has got to be preserved just like any other part of our country. Jobs can be created by an increase in demand by the consumer rather than retrogressing back and reducing employment by jobs being eliminated by imports, restructuring our companies and things of that sort. We are losing our 00:10:00economic base.

LUTZ: Yeah. Um. You were also in a unique position to be close to legislators and of course governors, such as Busby. Anyone in your mind stand out as a good labor man from all those years? Governor or legislator?

BUTLER: Well, there's a number of good legislators. Wyche Fowler when he was on the city council of Atlanta. Great person to help people. When he went into Congress and then later into the Senate, he still remembered to help, help these people. Andrew Young was a great congressman. Henderson Landum going back a number of years, in the old 7th district –

LUTZ: Landum?

BUTLER: Henderson L…Landum. Not, um, Phil Landum

LUTZ: Oh, okay. [laughter]

BUTLER: Phil Landrum was 9th district….

LUTZ: Different story [laughter]

BUTLER: Different, different, different story. Henderson Landum was a person that was concerned, and I think he served two terms in the House. John Lewis is a great congressman concerned with with with people. Jimmy Carter will go down probably in history as a great president; he was concerned. We had some differences with him when he was governor; but, um, he wasn't as moderate as, uh, as he could have been. He was a good governor, but did some things to help by combining some departments in the state, um the Department of Natural 00:12:00Resources. He did that. Combined a number of the agencies together to make an entity that was more workable. Uh, um, Carl Sanders, Carl Sanders, I think, was a good guy. George Busby was very cooperative in his first term, and then in the second term some things started changing. A number of labor people say that, that he wasn't a good governor. But I think overall George for the time was a decent governor.

LUTZ: Hmmm, I notice you don't mention Herman Talmadge; what a surprise!

BUTLER: What a surprise! I can remember Herman Talmadge, and I remember his dad, uh, too. His dad, old Eugene, he was against unions. And during Herman Talmadge's term as governor, the right-to-work law became part of Georgia, 00:13:00some people in labor got very close to him and used them in the labor movement. Labor people against labor people. Just like Newt Gingrich, and I'll bring him up. Newt Gingrich, um, courted some labor people and, um uh, got to know them very closely. I'm not one of them. I don't think the guy is, uh, representative of the people of Georgia or this country. I think he has done more damage to Georgia and to the United States than any other single person since he's been in congress.

LUTZ: Do you think that union take-over of his office recently was a good idea, good response to him?

BUTLER: Well, um, I think we had to -- I was there, and um several things happened that I would have done a little different if I was in charge of it. It 00:14:00is one thing to, uh,1 make yourself aware, but I wouldn't want somebody to come and take over my office. Um, you have a right to peacefully protest and do it in the right way. But, um, there's some things happened that day that the news media did a little changing and distorting and all, Chris; it had to be done and it got the attention of this country.

LUTZ: It sure did [laughter]

BUTLER: There's going to be some more rallies and all against Newt Gingrich and his contract against America.

LUTZ: I love the way you guys talk about contract on America or contract against America. [laughter]

BUTLER: Yeah, yeah.

LUTZ: Someone told me the other day, "That's a given." [Break] You 00:15:00received the award from the Histadrut for your work in the children's hospital in Israel. What got you interested in working with the labor Zionist Organization of Israel and, um, and helping to establish this hospital?

BUTLER: Well, again, my concern for all people, anywhere there's a cause somehow I wound up with being involved with it, Chris. A good friend of mine asked me if I would speak to the group that they were forming in the Atlanta area. The Histadrut was very active in Florida, in Georgia, and also in Michigan and other areas. Since I retired, I'm not sure what is going on with them now. 00:16:00The children's hospital really got me concerned with it and making money and getting involved with that. I guess I just happened to be there, I guess.

LUTZ: There's working with the Histadrut, there's the Board of Natural Resources, there's serving with the Labor Department, all pretty unique. I had almost forgotten to ask you about -- you were instrumental in setting up our own archives at Georgia State and the labor studies program. Tell us what happened.

BUTLER: We're one of the few states that has the labor studies course in the South and the archives. This is another thing that we talked with George about 00:17:00if he became governor would he help finance it, help us get involved with it, and promote it. He promised to do that. I'm very proud of it. I've sent a number of boxes of records over there. Most of our records go to Wayne State University in Detroit.

LUTZ: It's still sorta in the family 'cause our former director, Les Hough, is up there now.

BUTLER: I saw him at the convention about two, three months ago. Les and I were very close. He was out at the Anaheim, California, at our convention. He was working with Doug Fraser, Irving Bluestone, vice-president and former president of the UAW. That's a good man.

LUTZ: Yeah, we're proud of him; got a good woman heading up our department now.

BUTLER: Yeah, I understand. I haven't met her since I retired. I don't get 00:18:00down that way too much.

LUTZ: Well come on down, we'll buy you a cup of coffee. [laughter] But, since you mentioned retirement, you're not retired in one sense in that you are still leading the retired workers group here at the UAW, which is an enormous group. Can you tell me a little about them and your activities with them?

BUTLER: There's over two thousand retirees now and a number of them up in their late seventies and eighties - we have got one or two that is in their early 90's. When I first retired, the reason I retired, I had a heart attack in 1989. It was the second heart attack that I had, and I had two bouts with cancer too, so, uh, that I overcame. The doctor advised me the pressure was too much and to go ahead and retire. So, they had a retirement party for me. And, several 00:19:00congress people were here: Buddy Dardener of the 7th district, and Ben Jones of the old 4th district, and, um, Commissioner of the Department of Natural Resources, and people from the, uh, Georgia Labor Department, people from the international union was here, and, most of all, my friends and and co-workers that were here at the Local 10 and also from other UAW locals. And, um, I still serve on the governor's employment training council. That's to retrain older workers, displaced workers, and disadvantaged workers. That's something that the contract against America is trying to cut back on, job training monies that 00:20:00go into that. I serve on that and have served on it since its inception. Working with the retirees gives me a great deal of satisfaction, and again getting them motivated to be involved in politics, and everything that they have now when you're retired is connected with politics. Your Social Security, which pension programs were in addition to Social Security. No one that I know of can live just on their pension program alone or Social Security alone. Combined, they have a fairly good living with protection from Medicare and also with supplement insurance programs that we negotiated. I hate to see what we have done over 00:21:00fifty years, sixty years in the political arena go down the drain with a party that is in power now that wants to take away and put us back and that's what my involvement is. I'm involved with the public citizen group, um, that's being formed here. A Newt watch group, and I go to some of those, uh

LUTZ: A Newt watch? That's funny [laughter]

BUTLER: A Newt Watch. Watch what Newt's doing -- I was very active in Ben Jones' campaign against Newt Gingrich. And, uh, was involved in, uh, Dave Worley's campaign against and near defeat of Newt Gingrich; he just lost by 947 votes or Newt Gingrich would not be there now. Herman Clark almost beat Newt 00:22:00Gingrich in the Republican primary in his first run in the new 6th district. Our retirees-getting back to the retirees-our retirees are involved with politics. They write letters to their congress people, and we have a meeting once a month, go over what's necessary for them to be involved in and make them aware of the changes that are made in laws that affect them like Medicaid and Medicare. We help them with their taxes. Probably when you drove up, you saw retirees' parking spots out here. We have, every Thursday, benefit representatives here at the union hall to help the retirees get their health care benefits and any other 00:23:00problems that they have. We have periodically people that check their blood pressure and their eyes here at the union hall and union meeting. We've got a number of retirees that are involved with age-related eye study group at Emory University; I don't know if you are aware of that or not. It is a four-year program; they check people between the ages of 55 and 80 years of age. What causes cataracts and what causes other diseases with the eye. I'm involved in that as a person and also with the group of retirees that we have. I don't ask somebody to do something I won't do myself, so I got involved in it also. 00:24:00It's another thing to help people. It's a program, and and that's, again what… our retirees are more active today than they were when they were working. They can attend meetings today that they couldn't when they were working; they had other interests then.

LUTZ: Well, we answered the question of when are you going to retire but…[laughter]…If you look back, who would you cite as memorable people that you had come across, famous or not?

BUTLER: Well, Walter Reuther, I became very close to him. I was in a meeting with him two weeks before he died. I mentioned earlier that I had a disagreement with him. I did. But his vision of the future of the world was amazing to me. 00:25:00Just to listen to him talk. The knowledge that he had of world affairs. I gained a lot of respect for him and admiration for him. What he did for the working people of this country. It is a shame that he had to die the way he did without being able to put some of the things into effect then, put them into agreement. He was the architect of our supplement unemployment benefit program. He was the architect of our pension program. Just about every issue that we've been able to expand upon in contract negotiations; he was the architect of those things. 00:26:00John F. Kennedy. I met him, got involved in his campaign -- A good friend of my mine from Massachusetts [who] was an area director of the United Auto Workers introduced me to Jack Kennedy in his office in Washington. Jack gave me a number of PT boats that he had as his campaign slogan. They were tie clasps. I brought [them] back to Georgia and passed a bunch out. John Kennedy, had he lived, would have made a big difference in this country. A lot of programs that he had initiated, Lyndon Johnson was able to get passed. And, so I have a lot of 00:27:00respect for John Kennedy and have a lot of respect for Bill Clinton. I think Bill Clinton, uh, can be, with cooperation of the Congress and the Senate, could be a great president. And I think he has already made a number of changes; he reduced the budget considerably. He has a lot of programs in effect. The economic condition is a lot better now than it was two years ago, two and ½ years ago. John Lewis, I have a lot of respect for him. I admire his ability to be able to represent all of the population of Georgia. People think he just 00:28:00represents the black in Atlanta, and that's not true. He's concerned with all the Georgians. I have a lot of respect for him. I had a lot of respect for Andrew Young and still do, with his work with Jimmy Carter and as Ambassador to the United Nations, and as a congressperson. I wish I could say I had a lot of respect for some other Democrats in congress. I don't know that many up there from Georgia who are concerned for other people. They should be, but they weren't.

LUTZ: It is getting harder and harder to be a yellow dog democrat. [laughter]

BUTLER: Yeah, it is.

LUTZ: Anybody you ever wanted to take a poke at?

BUTLER: Oh yeah! Yeah. Several plant managers at General Motors. Came close to 00:29:00doing it a number of times. Been threatened a lot. I was over in South Carolina in 1985, I think it was, latter part of 1985, there's a plant manager there that took away some benefits from people that worked for a plumbing plant there right out of Conway, South Carolina. A guy out of my office was in negotiation with them: Wool Ring Brass, Wool Ring Brass Company. They had reduced their health care benefits and reduced their wages by about two dollars an hour. They was only making about 6 and ½ dollars after they cut back and was having to pay part of their insurance. That plant manager and I went into negotiation. There was a guy there that I'd like to have taken a poke at. He was not concerned 00:30:00with the people there, and the next day after we went out on strike, he replaced everyone there in the plant. That was the first experience that I'd ever had in any plant that I represented with people being replaced permanently in a strike. Those people never got their job back. We had unfair labor practice charges against the company and they were violating everything that they could under the National Labor Relations Act by what they were doing to the people. Also, in negotiations they violated - had unfair labor practices. But again, there was a Republican-dominated National Labor Relations Board that ruled against us, and those people were left without a job. It was a sad day. They 00:31:00found a lawyer and blamed the loss of job on their union. They said we had caused them to lose their job. That was a sad day, one of the saddest days that I've ever had in my years as a labor representative. 1980's, 1984 – or the first part of 1985.

LUTZ: Sad day. Uh. If you could stand on a podium and talk to young union members and tell them anything you wanted to tell them, what advice would you give them?

BUTLER: I would give them this advice. There's a, uh, a big distance being made between the young adult today and the retired people. I would tell them 00:32:00that the things they're enjoying today, that the retirees of today obtained those through a lot of hard work and struggle and strife and all. Not to believe what a lot of people are saying -- that there is not going to be benefits left for them and Social Security and Medicare in the future. Because I don't believe that. I think we are a country of caring people. Young peoples have got to realize that in order to help pay for the benefits of Social Security and Medicare that monies are going to be coming out of their paycheck in order to do it and they will be the recipient of those benefits when they are able to retire. I know I went through it in the early days with the present retirees. 00:33:00They think the same way as the active worker and the plant does today. Give it to me in my pocket and I'll invest it any way I want to. I am talking about the FICA taxes and federal taxes that are taken out to support Social Security. It's also supplemented by companies paying an equal amount into it. You are talking today of close to 17 percent that goes into Social Security with the management and the employees' contribution. I would tell them that America has got to be an economic leader of the world. We got the ingenuity and we got the educational opportunities and all to become the leader that we once were, in, in 00:34:00the world. They need to organize. A lot of people think that unions have used up their usefulness. And I think there is a greater need today than ever before for people to unite into labor groups and to protect the benefits they have. That's some of the things I would tell them.

LUTZ: UAW here in Atlanta and elsewhere does a lot towards building solidarity within the labor movement. Obviously united with the unions recently, we're just talking to Mr. Deer about -- he says he's going down to the Southern Bell picket line.

BUTLER: Johnny Hyde…I mean Jimmy Hyde.

LUTZ: Jimmy Hyde?

BUTLER: Jimmy Hyde, president of the local union.

LUTZ: We were looking before at some pictures on Solidarity, Camp Solidarity. Can you tell me a little about Camp Solidarity and some other cross, transunion activities you might remember?

BUTLER: Yeah, The coal miners fenced in mines in Virginia, went out on strike. We got very close to them. Because, uh, the need for food, the coal miner's life has been devastating. They're a union that's shrinking by automation. And, uh, they are a group of people that have lung disease, black lung disease, because of the coal dust they breathe in the mines and the unsafe conditions that mine owners had put the coal miners in. So, uh, by us being close to John L. Lewis and the miners in the early days of the UAW bad years, one of our favorite unions to help especially here, locally – so, uh, Jerry Hall, who was 00:36:00former president of Local 10, and Jimmy Hyde, and the executive board and others here got together and took bus trips and food, truck loads of food, and all to Camp Solidarity that they had right outside, I forget the name of the town, in Virginia. But we went up there and received the solidarity that they had there together. The women cooking, the men on the picket lines, and the women on the picket lines, and everybody working together gave me a feeling that…that unions are alive and well. As long as people are united, well for a cause and their cause was that they were trying to take away benefits from them over the 00:37:00years, and making their mines unsafe again, and and not protecting their health and keeping up their their benefit program. Their pension program was set up uh uh by so many time. They got so much money for time going into the pension fund. Which is a poor way, in my opinion, to set up a pension fund. But, anyway, it it had its problem, and they tried to correct them. So we went up to Camp Solidarity, and we had other local unions from the 12 Southeastern states that are in the Region 8, our region participated in it. We had buses from Florida and all over that went up there and joined them on the picket lines and helped them out.

LUTZ: Mmhmmm

BUTLER: It was a great experience. They won the strike, and nobody lost their 00:38:00job. When you win a victory like that, it's great.

LUTZ: Yeah. Um.

BUTLER: There's a plant not too far from here, I might add, Chris, that I've been concerned with and this local union has. That's, um, American Signature.

LUTZ: Yeah.

BUTLER: Japanese bought Foote and Davies Company, which is now called American Signature. They have been out on a strike for about 2-2 ½ years. They have got some unfair labor practice charges against them. They failed to negotiate fairly, on top of the table. They replaced all the workers out there. And, um, it's a sad thing to see that a Japanese firm can come into this country and…and reduce the benefits of working people that have fought over the years 00:39:00and helped make the companies' enormous profits and have those benefits taken away from them. Again, um, when I mention the Japanese, you might say, well I'm bitter. It's not the Japanese people that I am bitter against. I'm against their philosophy and the leadership of the Japanese people that I dislike. I don't like them taking over America and buying out the companies here and merging and then taking the money back to Japan, and their conditions getting much better than what they are in the United States. American Signature is still out on strike. And….and… hopefully it will be settled and the people will return back to work. They've had some of the charges upheld by the National Labor Relations Board, so that should put them back to work if they can 00:40:00get their contracts settled.

LUTZ: What are the odds?

BUTLER: I hate to speculate on it, um…

LUTZ: Yeah

BUTLER: By not being above in negotiating level. I just hope that they can win the strike.

LUTZ: Very sad story for those folks, I know. Um, well, to wrap up, because I don't….I know you have other things in your life to do. Has it been a good life?

BUTLER: Yes, um, it has for me. It's given me a great deal of satisfaction. My wife would probably tell you differently. Um, she, uh, has been a…what you say…..widow most of the times. She sees me when I get back in. My children understand -- I being away at meetings and all -- but I've enjoyed it, it's moved real fast. When I was working on the production line, in my early days 00:41:00with General Motors before I became involved with as much as I have with the union, days went by very slowly. The more I got involved with the people, and the people's problems and people's concerns, the faster the days, years, and the months went by. I have got a great deal of satisfaction from that and my family has been able to live, I think, decently and, uh, and all because of the union activities that I have been involved in and the benefits that we've been able to have by being a union member. [Break]

LUTZ: We're talking about the Alliance for Labor Action. Um, tell me about that.

BUTLER: The teamsters were expelled from the AFL-CIO, and we withdrew from the AFL-CIO. We joined together to organize plants in the South called the Alliance for Labor Action. A guy from my office, um, Jim Weaver, was coordinator for the UAW. And, um, I can't remember the guy's name that was the coordinator for the teamsters' union. It's on the tip on my tongue,

LUTZ: It'll come back later.

BUTLER: But I can't remember his name. This last for two or three years and we were able to organize a few plants, but not enough to make it ongoing. We had a - naturally - opposition from the AFL-CIO; we were unions fighting against unions. We finally dissolved that uh situation. We got back in the AFL-CIO; 00:43:00that's what where we ought to be, under the umbrella. And this local union is back in the Atlanta Labor Council. Now all of the UAW is not, you know, backing the Atlanta Labor Council. The Ford workers are are not -- local 472. Local 10 is the only UAW local backing.

LUTZ: I didn't realize that.

BUTLER: But, these are alliances that you have. It's going to be under the umbrella, I think, of one great big organization.

LUTZ: Mmhmm

BUTLER: Hopefully new leadership will give it that momentum to organize. People say you can't organize today. You can if you go out and ask workers. The need is there. With restructuring of companies and cutting back, people can't tell me that you can't organize people today. All you have got to do is get off 00:44:00your fanny and get out there and talk to them and tell them what unions are all about and how great they are,

LUTZ: Mmhmm

BUTLER: How great they are.