Martin R. Chavez Interview

AMY MELL: All right. Today is June 12th, 2013. (laughter) And we are at the Winpisinger Educational Center. We're doing a history project, and I am Amy Mell, and I am going to interview Mart --

MARTIN R. CHAVEZ: Martin R. Chavez.

MELL: And we are doing a project for the local 1932 out of Los Angeles. So, thank you for joining me today.

CHAVEZ: You're welcome.

MELL: Can you begin by telling me when you were born?

CHAVEZ: I was born October 2nd, 1942.

MELL: And where were you born?

CHAVEZ: Compton, California, but we lived in Wadsworth, that was the nearest hospital.

MELL: Oh, OK. And do you have any brothers or sisters?

CHAVEZ: Yes, I have -- in total, there's four of us, and one sister.

MELL: Oh, three boys and one girl? (laughter)

CHAVEZ: Well, four boys and one girl.

MELL: Four boys and a girl? OK. (laughter)

CHAVEZ: I'm sorry, there was five of us, yeah.

MELL: OK. And, um, let's see. Did, uh -- what did your mom do for -- did she work outside the house?

CHAVEZ: No, she was a housewife.

MELL: That's nice. And what did your father do?

CHAVEZ: He was a crane operator.

MELL: Crane operator. And was he in a union?

CHAVEZ: I'm sorry?

MELL: Was he in a union?

CHAVEZ: Yes, he was the, uh, Steelworkers Union.

MELL: OK. And did he participate a lot in that union? So, you knew about it growing up?

CHAVEZ: He -- uh, I think they went on strike that -- you're talking about my father?

MELL: Yes.

CHAVEZ: Yeah, he went on strike once.

MELL: Oh, OK.

CHAVEZ: And that's about it.

MELL: You don't remember any kind of activities, or --

CHAVEZ: No, no.

MELL: -- him going to meetings? But you do remember him striking?

CHAVEZ: Yes.

MELL: And did you go, like, to the picket line with him as a child or anything?

CHAVEZ: No.

MELL: OK. And when did you, uh, start working?

CHAVEZ: When I got out of the mil -- out of the military, out of the US Air Force.

MELL: OK, and what year was that?

CHAVEZ: Nineteen sixty-four.

MELL: OK. And who did you go to work for?

CHAVEZ: I went to work for McDonnell Douglas as a -- an apprentice mechanic, tool and die.

MELL: OK. Did they have a union?

CHAVEZ: Yes.

MELL: So, did you join the --

CHAVEZ: There was two unions, the IAM and the UAW. But I was on the UAW side of the -- of the facility.

MELL: OK. So, one side was one, one was the other? So, you didn't really have a choice?

CHAVEZ: Right.

MELL: It was just what you were working. And did you get involved with the union at that time?

CHAVEZ: Yes. I -- I had to join the union, and then the long story is that I got laid off, and I went and found work at Santa Monica, and that was IAM. Became a shop steward in Santa Monica, involved heavily with the union. I was also a 00:03:00trustee. And the long story is that they shut it down after we went on strike.

MELL: So, you went on strike with the --

CHAVEZ: I was on strike for 62 days.

MELL: Sixty-two days.

CHAVEZ: And then, uh, the strike was over with three months, they moved -- they shut down Santa Monica, and I got transferred to, uh, Huntington Beach IAM. And I was still a shop -- I was a stop steward there also.

MELL: OK. What was the, uh, trade? What did you do for Santa Monica?

CHAVEZ: It was making the -- what do you -- parts for the aircraft, like, the radons for the DC-8 and the DC-10.

MELL: OK. And was -- and what was the strike caused from? Why did everybody go on strike?

CHAVEZ: Oh, had to do with pension.

MELL: Oh. Was it a change of contract, and...

CHAVEZ: The -- the strike was about the formulation of the pension plan, and it 00:04:00was tenacious. Some people wanted to strike, some people did not. In the end, we won. But they shut the plant down anyway and moved us from one side of town, Santa Monica, 45 miles in the other direction. MELL: Oh. And were you doing the same work, then, in Huntington Beach?

CHAVEZ: Basically, yes.

MELL: Same work? And you were shop steward there?

CHAVEZ: Yes.

MELL: And did you do trustee position as well, again?

CHAVEZ: No, just --

MELL: Just the shop --

CHAVEZ: Just the shop steward.

MELL: Did you have any interesting grievances? Did you have grievances often, or as a shop steward, what were your duties, what did you do?

CHAVEZ: Most -- mostly, there were attendance, uh, for too many times -- too many times calling in sick, that type of a thing. Um, it was pretty stable, there wasn't anything really bad. Uh, made good money. The pay scales were, like, labor grade 12. And so, I mean, 15 was as high as you could go. I mean, we 00:05:00were not at the bottom, and we were up in the top, say, 10%.

MELL: So, that was good?

CHAVEZ: So, that's about it for -- for the, uh -- for that.

MELL: Mm-hmm. And then, where did you go next, or why did you leave there?

CHAVEZ: OK, I went -- I left there because I was an aircraft mechanic in the service, and I had been going to school, and I picked up my airframe and power plant license, and I was hired by Western Airlines as an A&P mechanic. And from there, Western got bought out by Delta, and I was offered a job in Atlanta, but I'm not from the south, and I didn't go. I just had an attitude that I could get a job anywhere. With an A&P ticket, you could.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: But I didn't want to move.

MELL: Yeah?

CHAVEZ: And I waited about a year and a half, and then I got hired by United Airlines, and I retired from them. And at United Airlines, I was not a shop steward, but I was a trustee. I was always going to the executive board meetings, doing various things, so if they needed help, I volunteered.

MELL: Well, good. And what local was that for United?

CHAVEZ: Local Lodge 1932.

MELL: Nineteen thirty-two? And how many members did you have?

CHAVEZ: At -- at one time, we were, like, 4,600.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: Today, we have about 2,100.

MELL: Really? So, how many people would come to a meeting?

CHAVEZ: It's funny, because no matter whether we were 4,600 or 2,000, it's about 45. It seems to be it's always the same group.

MELL: It does, doesn't it? (laughter) I always -- so, did you only -- were you only trustee? Did you have any other positions?

CHAVEZ: There's three trustees, according to the IAM contract.

MELL: Did you have any other positions for you?

CHAVEZ: No.

MELL: Just being the trustee? And were you shop steward at all for United?

CHAVEZ: Not for United, no.

MELL: OK. Um, have you attended many classes here at the Wipinsinger Education --

CHAVEZ: Yes.

MELL: Which ones have you had --

CHAVEZ: Well, McDonnell -- excuse me. At -- in the IAM, I went to political school here, Placid Harbor, and I -- and since then, I've gone to those classes they um -- to help out the retirees' training. We have -- we opened up an office in our local -- I have an office now, or we have an office.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: And I got all of the pamphlets, and books, and everything else. And between myself, and Antoinette, and Reggie, we take care of the problems of people trying to fly, passes, refer them to an attorney, workman's comp, those 00:08:00type of things.

MELL: Oh, that's nice, that's really helpful for the retired community. OK. Do you -- did you ever notice, when you were working at any one of those places, any different treatment of members, whether it's the color of their skin, or women, were you around at that time?

CHAVEZ: No, because until recently, and I'm talking 2000, 1932 was basically all men. Mechanics were men. We only had, what, three women in all of United, out of 19,000 mechanics between us, San Francisco, Washington, DC, and New York.

MELL: Wow.

CHAVEZ: And Chicago, there was only 19,000 mechanics for the whole airline.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: And there was only three women when I started. Today, we now have public contact employees, customer service, reservations, and 85% of them are women.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: So, the local has changed radically from being an all-male bastion, to women now.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: And it's more -- there's more arguments, (laughter) petty -- petty little things.

MELL: Is there, um, any interesting stories you want to share? Any petty argument you want to share? (laughter)

CHAVEZ: No, not really.

MELL: OK. (laughter) Um, let's see. Did you enjoy your training with the, uh, political information deal, like that?

CHAVEZ: Yes, I use it to this day. Recently -- well, my brother happens to be a -- he came out of the Department of Labor under Bill Clinton, and he's a campaign manager, and Gil Siedel is the -- the first district candidate, he just 00:10:00won his election.

MELL: Oh, good.

CHAVEZ: Of course, I had to volunteer, phone banking, etc., etc.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: And I've helped other ones. Laura Richardson's, in the 37th Congressional District. Um, she's an IAM union member.

MELL: That's good.

CHAVEZ: But she just got defeated and got Janice Hahn, who is now my representative.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: For nine years in a row at 1932, I was legislative.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: And I -- I travel --

MELL: Yes.

CHAVEZ: -- two or three times a year to Washington, DC.

MELL: OK.

CHAVEZ: So, I didn't have time to come up to Placid Harbor.

MELL: All right! (laughter) So, your union, uh, membership has taken you on some travels. And have you enjoyed that?

CHAVEZ: Yes.

MELL: Yeah? Did you meet any extraordinary people that you would not have had the opportunity to meet?

CHAVEZ: One of them is Steve Cook. Steve Cook was a ramper, got interested in 00:11:00the union, got himself elected, and he graduated from college, UCLA, or SC, and the IAM picked him up as an instructor here at Placid Harbor. He did a tour here, he went back as an assistant general chairman, or [Grand Law's?] rep. And he serviced San Francisco, San Diego, LAX, and is an extraordinary man. He just did everything.

MELL: Yeah?

CHAVEZ: I was having a conversation with Charles Metcalf, the instructor here, and I was telling him some of the things, pictures, that are on the wall. Steve Cook had, like, five or six people that he trusted.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: If he wanted something, he'd call me inside United, "I need to talk to you, Martin, come on up." And I would go over to the office after work, and he says, "What's this I hear about this, what do you hear?" And he didn't just take my word for it, he had half a dozen people. Or he heard something, and he says, "I want you to go to back," and either deny the 00:12:00charge, or tell them it's wrong, we're not doing that. And so, we were the eyes and ears of Steve Cook, because he's only one man, and United is big in LA.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: And I learned a lot from him. He passed away at a very young age.

MELL: Really?

CHAVEZ: And in the end, we decide -- we named the Steven O. Cook Local Action 1932.

MELL: That's nice. So, he really meant a lot to you?

CHAVEZ: Yes, he does. He -- he did, he meant a lot to everybody at the local.

MELL: What was it about him that was so special?

CHAVEZ: He treated everybody with an equal -- as an equal. Um, have an even temper.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: Just a lot of things. Uh, I was in Washington, DC, and I got a phone call when I got home, some guy -- my mother says, "Some guy with the name of 00:13:00Steve Cook called, and he says, 'When you go back to work Monday,' he says, he wants you in u -- u -- uniform, whatever that means. And he says, 'You're going to Los Angeles.' He said he'll explain when you -- when I get there." OK. Showed up Monday morning, and they told me, he says, "Go down and catch the bus." Steve Cook was there marshalling the troops. We took 200 people from United Airlines to demonstrate at a City Council meeting in Los Angeles City Council. We were trying to build -- United Airlines was trying to build a cargo facility, and our cargo facility was old, dilapidated, we outgrew it. Mail -- shipping packages was getting soaked when it rained. It doesn't rain that often, but when it did, it ruined the packages. And of course, the insurance paid. And the City Council was playing politics, and we lost it at the hearing. And afterwards, Steve Cook and I went to my management, and we told 00:14:00them the results, and they wanted the IAM to help out United Airlines. Steve Cook says, "That's why I got Martin here, he's our legislative guy." And he says, the thing I had to do, I had to convince -- I had 30 days to convince the City Council that we -- because it was going to go for confirmation.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: But we have to turn them around. So, I had to put a plan together, that's what I learned here at Placid Harbor. I had to call all 15 Council members, and convince them that they had to rethink their position. Give them the reasons why. They gave me two or three helpers, and we did phonebanking to the City Council members. I took in delegations from their district. United Airlines and the IAM gave me the names of the employees that lived in the Council district. I contacted them, I says, "I can get you a half a day 00:15:00off," ate lunch, and I took them down. And I -- I made the presentation. And these are -- these people were in his district. And they heard enough of it. And eventually, we had the meeting, we put 200 people in, paid lunch, uh, and we won.

MELL: That's fantastic.

CHAVEZ: Uh, in the end, we won.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: And the company -- the company was grateful. They built the, uh, cargo facility and then they -- they hosted the IAM -- of course, I was upfront with Steve. And he got up and spoke, and he says, "This is what you do and labor and management get together, instead of fighting like cats and dogs. You guys have been working on it for three to four years and you couldn't do it, and you were about to be completely shut off until you came to the union, and it only took us 30 days." I says, "We have the -- here's one of them, Martin Chavez." You know, I mean, I hate to brag about myself, but they were the ones 00:16:00that threw a party.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: United threw it for us, and we brought in half a dozen people. And for a while there, uh, I could do no wrong at United.

MELL: Really?

CHAVEZ: They even -- they even flew me to Washington, DC on a -- not on space available, like when I do work for the IAM, it was positive space seats. I stayed in the Pentagon Building.

MELL: Really?

CHAVEZ: And we visit members of Congress. And all of a sudden, doors were open. They were closed to the IAM when I was -- when I was still IAM.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: But when I went as an IAM, uh, person, some members of Congress just didn't -- wouldn't see me at all. But when I went with United, I went to, I hate to tell you, but there were Republicans, and all of a sudden, I'm walking into these Republicans' office, that were never -- never open to me before.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: And so, I did that a couple of trips.

MELL: That's exciting.

CHAVEZ: Yes, it was at times, like I said, I could do no wrong.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: And eventually, there was a change in management, and I decided to leave. That's why I went out on a medical.

MELL: OK, and what year was that, that you went out?

CHAVEZ: Like, 2003.

MELL: OK. That is exciting. You got to meet a lot of different, uh, Congressmen then? Was any of them -- any one of them strike you as, uh -- it sounds like as spectacular as Steve Cook was...

CHAVEZ: Well, uh, Juanita McDonald was my representative. She gave me -- she had her Chief of Staff give me a personal tour of the Statuary Row inside the Capitol.

MELL: Wow.

CHAVEZ: I had to be escorted in. They -- they treated me quite well. Uh, she knew who I was.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: She knew I worked for United, and the door opened for me. Um, it was -- 00:18:00it was interesting, and I said, "I'll never forget those days."

MELL: Yeah, I can see why. That's -- that's great. Um, during your time with United, uh, did you guys strike at any time? Were you, uh --

CHAVEZ: Not when I was there.

MELL: Not when you were there? Did you participate in any other strikes?

CHAVEZ: Only -- only the IAM strike in Santa Monica.

MELL: OK. Um, have you supported any other pickets or anything, anywhere around the area?

CHAVEZ: Hmm, yes.

MELL: And what would those be?

CHAVEZ: There's other locals that call the -- when -- because I was legislative. And this is what I do, if I had a Saturday open, and somebody was organizing a car dealership, Martin Chavez, I show up with half a dozen of my retirees, and we just march around for half an hour, do what we could, yell and scream. Other people were on strike, we would -- what do you call it, we would 00:19:00help out. Matt McKinnon was in California at the time, every time I went to Sacramento, we walked somebody's picket duty.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: Always, every time I went there, there was -- somebody was on strike. Little -- there are small groups, but it wasn't big, like, thousands at United.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: Maybe a small auto shop with 35 mechanics, and they wanted a contract, and we would -- Matt McKinnon showed up, I was part of that. And we marched picket duty. I marched in a lot of picket lines, not -- not mine at United, but for other companies, helping the IAM, and other people. Seems to be the story of my life, I've done more on the outside than at United. (laughter)

MELL: And -- and so, were you, um, involved in organizing any workgroups?

CHAVEZ: Not really. Um, I went out and helped out when the IAM came in and they wanted -- Reggie helped out a -- a lot. He would call me and says, "We're going to Burbank, we're going here, we're going over there." Yeah, I did that.

MELL: Did you enjoy --

CHAVEZ: But as a volunteer, you don't get paid.

MELL: Hmm, yeah. Did you enjoy that part of it as well?

CHAVEZ: Yes.

MELL: Yeah?

CHAVEZ: Because you learn a lot, you learn what the other side's doing.

MELL: Mm-hmm. Um -- um, is -- while you were doing all of that work, did it ever occur to you to go further, uh, say, to, um, be a district lodge rep, or anything like that?

CHAVEZ: No.

MELL: You didn't want to -- didn't want to go there? (laughter)

CHAVEZ: Didn't want to go there. Uh, I didn't even want to be a lead.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: You only get paid a dollar an hour more to babysit 11 grown men.

MELL: Yeah? (laughter)

CHAVEZ: It's -- it's not worth a dollar more.

MELL: Yeah.

CHAVEZ: And so, I had no intention of going up. I mean, I was a mechanic, I enjoyed it, I liked working with my hands. I ran engines, taxied airplanes, the company let me play with multimillion-dollar computers, run multimillion-dollar engines. How much more do you want?

MELL: Right, right. And in 2003, did you retire, or did you leave for another reason?

CHAVEZ: Two thousand-three, I retired. And it was medical.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: But I retired because I had the time.

MELL: Oh, that's good. So, you just went on regular retirement. Um, was anything happening with United at that time, that it made it especially a good time to get out?

CHAVEZ: There's a change in management, and there's a lot of turmoil, and there is still a lot of turm -- turmoil going on.

MELL: Is there?

CHAVEZ: The airlines are shrinking, and United just recently -- this year, bought out Continental.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: And they -- to this date, they haven't merged the seniority rosters yet.

MELL: And are the Continental people union members yet?

CHAVEZ: I'm sorry?

MELL: Are the Continental people union members as well?

CHAVEZ: Well, they may come into our local, but we have to have elections, they've got to have a contract first.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: And right now, there's no federal mediator available.

MELL: OK.

CHAVEZ: So, it's -- the contract has been extended, and extended, and extended. And we won't know until sometime next year.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: So, between now and next year, they had to come up with a contract. We're in negotiations now. And there's other airlines also that are in negotiation. They're all stalling. They want to see which way the big boys are going to go, and then everybody follows suit.

MELL: Mm-hmm. Do you think it's frustrating that part of the Railway Act is that you can't strike.

CHAVEZ: Right.

MELL: That you can't make that contract happen.

CHAVEZ: Right.

MELL: Is that frustrating to you?

CHAVEZ: I understand what -- what that is, but again, that's how they punish us. I mean, they make us meet and meet, and they won't release us, they will never give us a final offer. And then, under the IAM rules, uh, Steve Cook always explained it, you've got to give us strike authorization, and we have to explain it to the membership that we've got to have 85%, because the company's not going to believe it unless it's 85 or more.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: And finally, when they come back and they say this is the last offer, and then we take another strike vote, now that's the real strike vote, we either strike or we accept.

MELL: And where are they right now?

CHAVEZ: They -- we haven't even started the first one.

MELL: Really?

CHAVEZ: They -- they have -- they're just jawboning.

MELL: Yeah?

CHAVEZ: Either -- neither side is going anywhere.

MELL: Hmm. Let's see. So, when you worked for United, did you travel a lot, just in general? Did you -- use your benefits and go places?

CHAVEZ: Oh, yes, I did travel.

MELL: Yeah?

CHAVEZ: Uh, I've been to Israel.

MELL: Oh, OK.

CHAVEZ: Visited Jerusalem, the Dead Sea. I've been to Rome twice, been to Venice, Florence, obviously, The Vatican. I've been to Mexico, I've been to Thailand, I've been to Hawaii, I've been to The Philippines. Uh, Mexico a dozen times. Yeah, I travel.

MELL: Yeah, that's fantastic. What do you think was your favorite?

CHAVEZ: I'm sorry?

MELL: What's your favorite place?

CHAVEZ: Everybody asks me that.

MELL: Yeah?

CHAVEZ: You can't do that.

MELL: (laughter)

CHAVEZ: It's apples and oranges.

MELL: I didn't think so! (laughter)

CHAVEZ: It's apples and oranges, you can't say -- somebody says, what's -- between, say, Jerusalem and Rome, which one is better?

MELL: Right.

CHAVEZ: It's apples and oranges, you can't add them.

MELL: So, what did you enjoy about Jerusalem?

CHAVEZ: It's like -- Jerusalem is, like, when Jesus Christ was around. I mean, you can see the old city. You can see the rest of it, but it's modern.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: But when you're in Jerusalem itself, the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, the Way of the Cross, the Muslim section, the Christian section. I mean, the -- the -- I call them flea markets. They still have goats hanging by their hind legs, and they just cut it up, wrap it in paper, and off they go.

MELL: Wow.

CHAVEZ: And they close down on the Sabbath. And if you're in a restaurant, they'll bring you your coffee, the hot water, but they can't make it for you, so you put the filter on top of the cup, and the water over it, and you make your own coffee.

MELL: Really?

CHAVEZ: That's how they get away with the -- their Sabbath laws.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: They don't even turn on the electric switch, because they got a timer that turns on the electric switch, and turns on the TV, because if you're an 00:26:00Orthodox Jew, you can't do any work.

MELL: Oh, OK.

CHAVEZ: On Friday night to Saturday. But if you're home, and you set the timer the day before, and it goes on, you've got the TV channels set, or your set of movies, you're ready to go.

MELL: Wow, that's neat. (laughter)

CHAVEZ: That's how it is in Jerusalem.

MELL: Wow.

CHAVEZ: But they're honoring their religion.

MELL: Mm-hmm, that's amazing.

CHAVEZ: Yeah.

MELL: And then, how about Rome, what was special about Rome?

CHAVEZ: It's -- it's the Vatican.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: To know how the Vatican was -- the -- the statues, the artwork, it -- it is fantastic. Uh, obviously, because, uh, I'm Catholic, I feel that much of a connection.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: Although, there's a lot -- the church makes a lot of mistakes, but got to remember, they're men, they're not Jesus Christ, they're not Gods, so they made a lot of mistakes. And the point is, that's the reason, supposedly, that's why we're here. We, we study history so we can learn from the mistakes that were made in the past, so hopefully, we don't make them in the future.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: That's -- I learned that here at the school, too.

MELL: (laughter) That's neat. Have you met -- have you seen the Pope? Was the Pope out when you were there?

CHAVEZ: Uh, he was there, but in a high mass. And it's just --

MELL: Yeah.

CHAVEZ: The thing about it is, it was in Latin. And here in the United States, everything's gone to the vernacular. It's -- if it's -- if you're in Mexico, it's Spanish, if you're in Germany, it's in German. And Italian, the Italian. But it's still Latin in Rome, in the United States it's English.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: And it's just because I grew up as an altar boy, I -- I learned the Latin by rote, because I had so many masses, you just -- you know that's the Lord's prayer, because you've said it so many times, that you actually learn the languages by reading it. And, of course, you have -- right next to it is the English version, or if it's Spanish, it's Spanish, you go right back and 00:28:00forth. So, I learned it that way, and then they went to the vernacular in the United States English. And now, some of the churches are doing it in Latin again, although, a lot of people will argue that, "Well, it's in Latin, and I don't understand it."

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: Well, I could say it in English, but you still don't understand it.

MELL: (laughter) Could be, likely. Uh, let's see. So, now that you're retired, you're working, uh, closely with your local in reaching -- like, doing, um, outreach to your neighborhoods.

CHAVEZ: Yes.

MELL: Are you enjoying that?

CHAVEZ: Yes, and I'm also -- now that I got time for all of this, I've gone to the VFW and the American Legion.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: We help out the soldiers, this coming November, at the VFW, it's a big post. And we sponsor the ROTC.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: There is bingo for the ladies, they've got dance lessons, and it's just -- I'm involved with retirees. And from the union, and we even have them from our local, they could belong to the VFW. So, yeah, a lot of the people that I see are my union local retirement club is also part of the VFW, it's only four blocks away.

MELL: (laughter) So, you see a big need for that community activity and assistance?

CHAVEZ: Yes.

MELL: And you're getting -- are you getting good, um, support from your local? Are there a lot of retirees that are participating?

CHAVEZ: No.

MELL: Or how many? No?

CHAVEZ: No. The other reason that I participate at the local is because when you see people come in in wheelchairs and walkers, they can barely walk. I mean, they can't help themselves, and they were coworkers with me.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: So, what -- what am I supposed to do, turn my back on them?

MELL: Right.

CHAVEZ: So, I -- we do that. And the same thing goes with the VFW and the American Legion. It's a camaraderie between ex-soldiers, ex-airmen, the Navy, Navy, Marine Corps. There's always that bravado from every service, but it's toned down when you get down to -- I'm 70 years old. It gets -- they tone it down, because they -- they understood what it's like. It's the people on the other -- on the outside that were never in the service that do not know what it's like.

MELL: Mm-hmm. Um, with the, uh -- besides the change of management and that, do 00:31:00you see a difference between union members when you were active, and the union members now?

CHAVEZ: Well, I've said this from a long time ago, and it's -- I find that it's still the same thing. It's the younger members, they don't care any -- I did, I was not that way, um, I cared about the retirement, because I was going to retire someday. But the young people don't care about retirement, because they say, "Oh, I don't know that I'm going to make it, or I'm going to live that long." They happened to be true, because everybody that's young right now is not going to make it to 70 years old. It's true.

MELL: Yeah.

CHAVEZ: You die, have accidents, etc. I mean, odds are against you. And to make it to my age is extraordinary. Uh, when you retire, uh, I think the first year, first two years drop off left and right. If you can get through that, then you've got it not made, but just a lot easier.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: But a lot of these people that are 19 -- 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, they're not going to make it. And they don't care, they want -- all they care is about money right now. And I understand why, I mean, some of them are married, want to raise a family, they've got responsibilities. Some of them don't know how to manage money.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: Some of them will never learn how to manage money. And retirees care because if you made it this far, you own a home, or you're living in an apartment or a condo, but that's your personal choice. But retirees care because they say, I have a home, and they care a lot about taxes. Because once I retire, there's no more raises for me. Social Security is set on whatever I make, but, ah, inflation is eating us up. Congress knows it, but they don't want to do anything about it. And I was always giving speeches about members of 00:33:00Congress. Write your congressman, I have the IAM book. I looked up all of the information, put it on the sheet, and handed it out. I gave them the website, a lot -- 50% of the people at our local do not have computers. I'm not very good at it, I mean, I can operate one, I know how to find things and do the research on it, but I'm slow, because I was a mechanic. I mean, it's not something that -- I wasn't a secretary, I don't do all of this stuff. But the retirees that we have are that way. Some say, "Oh, I'm too old, I don't understand it." You know, they won't even try. But we do it anyway. Myself, Reggie, and two other people, we're always bringing stuff in. Talking about the politics, 00:34:00election time, I was one of the guys that made a bylaw change, that a union meeting is -- we meet on a Tuesday. If there's an election on a Tuesday, we move the meeting date so that we can have -- people don't have an excuse not to go vote. They'll say, "Well, I had to go vote, I had to go to the local lodge meeting. I don't have time to vote." We did that on purpose. I was one of the guys -- I made the motion, someone else seconded, but we got it passed, we got a bylaw proposal change. And it's in our bylaws at Local Lodge 1932.

MELL: That's great.

CHAVEZ: That on -- on Election Day, you move the local lodge meeting, give them 30 days notice. Move it one day or back, I don't care, as long as it -- that day, Election Day, is open. No excuses for not voting.

MELL: That's interesting. That was good. Let's see, I asked you those. Let's see, have you participated in any other union-sponsored activities, if they're food drives, or the Guide Dogs, or any of those?

CHAVEZ: I've been to Las Vegas for Guide Dogs.

MELL: Have you? For the dinner, or the other...

CHAVEZ: Yes, the dinner.

MELL: Yeah? Did you ride in the -- uh, ride on the hogs for dogs, or do the golfing?

CHAVEZ: No, I don't play golf. But I just go to the dinners, and, uh, we raise money for Guide Dogs. When I was active -- at the time, uh, local lodge presidents were more involved in it, and I was there, so we always did the things like that. We even had a guide dog come into the local, because there was people on the executive board that didn't want to donate money to Guide Dogs, 00:36:00they didn't see any -- any reason for it. They just -- they were just against helping people. So, the local lodge president says, "We -- we're going to have a guest next month." And he didn't tell him. We have a young lady, customer service people -- person, that's unfortunately blind, works at United, and we went and got her, and came in with her dog.

MELL: Really?

CHAVEZ: And put the dog up on the table. And explained why we -- we wanted to vote money out of our treasury to make a donation of $1,000 to Guide Dogs. And we brought a speaker from the Guide Dogs telling us how the dogs are trained. And at -- right after that, they left, pulled the motion on the floor, and we won.

MELL: Great.

CHAVEZ: The people that were against it, they just put the hands across their chests and just sulked. I mean, you could -- you have to go around them. If I can't go through you, I go over you, under you, to the right or to the left, 00:37:00but we're going to do it. Yeah, we had guide dog -- guide dogs at our local -- made an appearance. And obviously, I went to Sacramento, and we did the same thing there.

MELL: Mm-hmm. Is the Guide Dog -- they're in Sylmar, California, is that close to you?

CHAVEZ: Yes, yes.

MELL: How far? Oh, is it close?

CHAVEZ: Yes.

MELL: So, have you been to their facility?

CHAVEZ: No, I haven't, but I know where it's -- I know where Sylmar is, I just never visited the facility.

MELL: They have an open house -- um, they may have had it this past weekend, so you'll have to check next year and go. Do you think you'll attend the dinner this year? The Guide Dog dinner this year?

CHAVEZ: Yes.

MELL: You're going to come again? Do you come as your local, or just individually?

CHAVEZ: Just individually.

MELL: Oh, that's nice. That's good. Does anyone else from your local come?

CHAVEZ: Maybe one or two more.

MELL: Yeah?

CHAVEZ: But, you have to understand, the local -- if the local was going to attend and buy a table, that means they've got to spend money. And -- and if 00:38:00it's not for them, they're not going to do it. I'm sorry to be talking negative of our -- our executive board, but you don't want me to lie, do you?

MELL: No.

CHAVEZ: Yeah. That's the way it is.

MELL: Yeah. Have you ever had anything, um, in your local happen, um, that may be negative? Like, any -- any missing funds, or things that --

CHAVEZ: Yes.

MELL: Yeah?

CHAVEZ: And it was covered up, and they don't want to talk about it.

MELL: And how did they discover it?

CHAVEZ: Uh, $40,000 was missing from the bank. The bank called, and they went down and looked at it, and found out that old checks had been cashed in and around LA for the tune of $40,000.

MELL: Oh.

CHAVEZ: And whoever was doing this, they -- they clammed up, and of course, we proved that these checks were out of balance, they were -- they were out of sequence, probably, maybe seven years ago. Somebody found -- somebody had them, and they waited seven -- seven, or eight, nine years, the same -- the same bank account. And they cashed them all the way around, $40,000.

MELL: Wow.

CHAVEZ: And we got our money back because we proved it was fraud.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: But that's about it. They -- people just don't want to talk about it.

MELL: Mm-hmm. What do you think would be a good safeguard so that wouldn't happen in the future?

CHAVEZ: OK, my thing is, what do you call it? Audits every 90 days.

MELL: Every 90 days? That would be good.

CHAVEZ: A long time ago, I heard about this, but I don't have any specific information. We had the same thing happen. Um, there was missing funds, and the guys that I talked to, they passed away, they're not around. They were saying 00:40:00that for about two years, there was, every 90 days, there was an audit committee. I mean, everything had to be documented. That's the way it's supposed to be. Today, it's lax. So, if we had more audits, ummm -- I don't understand why -- well, with computers, all of that should be able to be solved with what we have now.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: Everything goes into the -- into the computer, the checks generated, all of that kind of stuff. And then you have area auditors now.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: But, again, nobody knows anything about them. I have the -- I know about it because I was with the executive board. But if it wasn't for -- for that, I wouldn't know anything about the area auditors. They don't an -- even answer to me. I don't think that's right. If you do it -- they do an area audit, every -- he should be able to come to the -- the local lodge and explain 00:41:00anything that he found.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: Well, he never -- he's never done that, none of them do.

MELL: Hmm.

CHAVEZ: So...

MELL: That's a good suggestion. Also, maybe changing your bank more often. That way, you couldn't hold checks.

CHAVEZ: When -- when that -- that incident happened, it -- we were at Washington -- excuse me, Bank of America. And now -- we were at BofA, and now, we're at Chase.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: So, they did switch banks. But again, that's part of -- the problem with that is, with the money that we have, um, we were -- when I was there, 4,600 union members, in our account, we had $4,959. I'm sorry -- yes, 15 -- $49,000.

MELL: Forty-nine thousand?

CHAVEZ: Almost a half a million.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: Today, we have -- I'll tell it right on the mic, we have less than $1,000 -- less than $100,000.

MELL: Really?

CHAVEZ: So, it's just the way -- they're overspending. You don't send 18 delegates, which is the max that we can spend, to convention.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: And pay everything. It just -- you can't be doing that. But they're doing it. When we had all of that money, we could afford that.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: Today, we're half -- less than half of what we used to be, and they're still spending the -- but that's what the executive board and the membership, they yell and scream from the floor. Nobody -- I mean, you had a long localized president that says motion out of order, don't like it, complain to the international. I'm telling you, we can't spend it. We don't have the money. And if we do, we're not going to have it very long.

MELL: Right.

CHAVEZ: Someone has to learn how to put the -- use that gavel they got.

MELL: Yeah.

CHAVEZ: And they don't, because they're trying to please the people. That's what's wrong with the local.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: So, that's where we're at right now.

MELL: That's dangerous. Yeah, that's where you need a little bit of budget, so you need -- you can't spend more than --

CHAVEZ: That's another thing they don't do, our local does. You need to have a budget from the beginning of the year, the IAM does it here, we do it in December. And each department here, including Charlie, gets a budget. He knows how to spend the money. And you've got to stay within the system. But, no, over there, it's well, you know, certain people hold the purse -- purse strings. It's either a yes or a no, but they answer to nobody.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: You can't do that.

MELL: Yeah.

CHAVEZ: That's why, here, I've learned a lot, I know some of -- I'm not going to mention names, there's people here, they've got a million dollars in one account and almost a million in the other.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: So, how can -- and there are only 400 people.

MELL: Yeah.

CHAVEZ: How do you do that?

MELL: I know, unless they have a giant dues structure or something. (laughter) Yeah, it's hard to recover from, uh, a loss like that. Um, now, I'm sure with the, um, political stuff that you know that some states are right to work states, where not every -- they're not closed shops. And how do you feel about that, that someone could possibly work -- negotiate a fantastic contract, and work next to some guy that doesn't participate --

CHAVEZ: That's why in California, we don't have a right to work state.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: It's a closed shop. And I've been in the IAM a long time, and we did all of the stuff, where I go back and argue with them. Right, in California, we don't have a problem. In LA, we don't have a problem. But that's California. I mean, I'm not picking on Nevada, or Arizona, or Texas, or Georgia, or even Maryland, they're right to work states. And you -- I've 00:45:00been to all of these states, and you ask the waitresses in the restaurant, how much do you make? Can't believe what they make, and the way the structure is. But union members, all the time, make more money per -- per trade -- more than a right to work state. So, it definitely is -- it pays off to belong to a union. I -- I understand how that they -- working side-by-side, and they get the same amount of money as the person that's union, the guy that's not union doesn't pay the union dues, makes the same amount of money. It's not fair.

MELL: Mm-mm.

CHAVEZ: But that's -- to me, that's just one person robbing the other -- your own fellow worker, he works side-by-side, do the same work, one pays union dues, the other one doesn't. And you have a wage, and they're identical. It doesn't make sense.

MELL: It really doesn't. And then what do you think about, like, the people that, um -- that do pay their dues, and, like, in California, you have a closed shop, so everyone pays their dues, but all they do is complain about it. CHAVEZ: It's all right. And, you can't -- they're -- you can't change their mind, they -- they're dead set. We had, um, what do you call it, conscientious objector status. And Steve Cook was always talking to them. And they just pay the minimum, nothing to the local, nothing to MAPL, but I try to explain to them that contract time comes, that money's put aside, and that's the first money we're going to spend.

MELL: (laughter) Oh. Well, are there any other stories that you have that you want to share, or anything that you think that I forgot to ask you?

CHAVEZ: No, I think that's about it.

MELL: Yeah?

CHAVEZ: It covers it pretty much. We could go on for hours, and hours, and hours. But I wanted to be something that's pertinent, and that covers, basically, with the people we have, I'm going to do, probably, two more interviews in Las Vegas, and maybe -- probably one here. We have these different airlines that belong to us, the 1932 now, it's an amalgamated logo. We have -- I've already talked to him here, Richard Suarez is out of Northwest, because they don't exist anymore, they went Delta.

MELL: Mm-hmm, yeah.

CHAVEZ: Richard Suarez still pays union dues in Local 1932. So, it's only fair that he get an interview.

MELL: That'd be fantastic.

CHAVEZ: And Felix Seeco, and Danny Moselo. Moselo is a localized president. And 00:48:00he used to lobby Congress too, only because they were trying to take away the passes at United.

MELL: OK.

CHAVEZ: They wanted us to pay, what do you call -- our fair of the taxes. And he says nope. And because he was localized president, he says, "I'm going -- and we're taking..." he took a delegation. We pay -- the local -- it was right before I got there, when Ronald Reagan was there.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: And he -- he wanted to do that. And we won. We restructured it, but it wasn't what they wanted. Uh, to this day, at United, I have unlimited passes in coach, and -- it runs me, like, $25 when I go first class and it's open.

MELL: Twenty-five dollars for first class?

CHAVEZ: Twenty-five dollars, yeah, all the way across the United States.

MELL: That's fantastic.

CHAVEZ: So, yeah, Danny Moselo didn't think it was right, and he was local lodge president, and he got half of his e-board, he just -- we took people, period.

MELL: Yeah.

CHAVEZ: Came to Washington, DC when the IAM called for it. And he still talks about it to this day.

MELL: Really?

CHAVEZ: Yeah.

MELL: That'll be a good interview.

CHAVEZ: Yeah.

MELL: That'll be a good one. Um, and there was something else you said. Oh, that you're, uh, in the amalgamated lodge. So, who else is in your lodge with you?

CHAVEZ: It's right here in the book. We have, um, where is it -- OK, we have United Airlines, Southwest, Alaska, and USAir.

MELL: OK.

CHAVEZ: Now, on paper, they claim we have Philippines and Hawaiian, but I've never seen anybody.

MELL: (laughter)

CHAVEZ: So, that's who we have up there. There's a book -- Alaska Airlines, US Airways, Southwest, and United.

MELL: Do you still attend the regular meeting?

CHAVEZ: I'm sorry?

MELL: Do you still attend the regular meetings for the local?

CHAVEZ: No.

MELL: OK.

CHAVEZ: Well, one of the things I got tired of, it's the same old people making the same old speeches. Some people say -- I'm not going to mention names, but it's a young lady, whatever she does, she says, "Well, I'm allowed to speak for five minutes, and I'm going to get my five minutes every -- every month." No matter whether she has five -- something to say, could take -- only take you a minute and a half or two to explain what you want.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: Or what you -- you feel. And then, make your point, and get off the dais. No, she's got five minutes, and she will just go on, and on. She's just -- she's redundant.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: I mean, I -- I get tired of it. They try to correct her to no avail. I mean, she says, "No, I've got my five minutes, I'm going to speak." After all these years, I'm -- year, after year, after year, after year, I mean, she doesn't have that much to report.

MELL: (laughter)

CHAVEZ: But it makes her feel important.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: And that's -- that's reason -- why -- why should I attend a meeting when I know all this already, there's -- your -- and it doesn't pertain to retirees. So, why would I want to go listen to the same old stuff. There's nothing new. Petty stuff, and half the time, they're wrong. I mean, so --

MELL: Right.

CHAVEZ: I -- when I spoke, it was political -- I didn't speak every -- every meeting, but if I had something to say, I made -- I said my two cents. It was political, make my point, got off, asked for volunteers, sign a petition to Congress, do what we had to do, that's it.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: I didn't go on and on. But I attended everything.

MELL: Mm-hmm. Did -- now that you have those other airlines, are any of those airlines on the board, or is it still a United, um, employee board?

CHAVEZ: OK, this one, um, at this last -- he just got sworn in, he's from Southwest, he's Afro-American, his name is Jeff. He's the first 00:52:00Afro-American we have at Local Lodge 1932 that is a local lodge president.

MELL: Oh, and he's the president? Wow.

CHAVEZ: Just got elected.

MELL: So, that's historical.

CHAVEZ: Yes, it is.

MELL: Wow.

CHAVEZ: And I'm going to interview him, too.

MELL: Fantastic. Do you have any ladies on the board?

CHAVEZ: Yes. Like I said, when I was there, there was no women.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: Because it was all mechanics, and -- that ran. And then, when customer service came in, 2000, 2001, then -- I knew it was going to happen, and we actually planned for it. We -- we invited them. But it went to their head. Now, they -- they wanted all -- all women, all females on the executive board.

MELL: Oh.

CHAVEZ: That's what they call equality.

MELL: Yeah. OK. (laughter) That's just doing the opposite, you know?

CHAVEZ: I know.

MELL: All males, all females. So, yeah, that -- that's a curious thing happening in your local. (laughter) Um, uh, let's see. I guess that's it, 00:53:00then. I thought I had something else. Well, it sounds like you have a good plan, then, for your history. You've got some plan for interviews --

CHAVEZ: I'm -- I'm planning to do a, um, timeline.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: And when the different airlines came in. Originally, there was United Airlines, TWA, and Flying Tigers. Both of those airlines are gone. We don't have United, but after that, they started folding the districts, district air transport and locals are 141, 142, and 143.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: So, they got small, they're being gobbled up, and they move them over to us, and now we're amal -- we were always amalgamated, but we function like we weren't. That's because we were a 900-pound giant.

MELL: Mm-hmm, yeah.

CHAVEZ: But, a gorilla.

MELL: The majority, yeah. (laughter) Yeah. So, uh, where will you put your information? Are you going to have a display, or --

CHAVEZ: We wanted to do a storybook.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: And I had plans for asking -- we have -- it's our building, we paid for it. And we have two stories.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: And everything goes on the bottom. And upstairs, there's enough space for three offices. We could be renting out two of them. I've already spoken to the local lodge president, the new one, about possibly doing that, but he runs resistance on the executive board, because they just -- they don't want to do it. It's -- it's dumb. We could be making $1,500-$1,600 a month that goes into the building.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: I mean, we have ceiling panels that are falling, we have water problems with the plumbing. It's just a thing, and I'm glad we're doing this, because, um, a lot of people complain that the floor is pitched.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: And it's because Local Lodge 1932, one time, was a mortuary. Now you know why the floor is pitched.

MELL: (laughter)

CHAVEZ: So, uh, it was sold as a mortuary. I already did the research. Uh, a real estate agent up the street, I'm not going to advertise for him, but he had a buyer, that's what buyers do. He bought the building, renovated it, fixed it up, and sold it to Steve Cook and Willie McReynolds, and the other people from the Tigers, which I don't know. Uh, and it was -- had a -- we bought it together. And so, it's our building.

MELL: That's great.

CHAVEZ: So, uh, like I said, and then everybody else dropped out, and Willie left -- the TWA group had a choice, join ours, or as just a matter of courtesy, being nice to people, said, well, you've got your group, the retirees, we give 00:56:00-- give them a stipend every month, just like they do to United.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: He says, "But, you know, when you're gone, you're gone. It'll be no more."

MELL: So, you do different segments for each retiree group, or are you one retiree group?

CHAVEZ: We -- they -- we wanted them to be with us, but they didn't want to.

MELL: Oh, OK.

CHAVEZ: So, he wants to meet separately.

MELL: That's the TWA group?

CHAVEZ: TWA, right. It was only 19 of them. I mean, you can't have any more retirees, they're gone.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: That's it. They died, there's no more TWA.

MELL: That's curious.

CHAVEZ: They went to American.

MELL: Yeah.

CHAVEZ: And their people -- the people that they had at -- most of them are gone, because they went to the bottom of the seniority list.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: Here comes the layoff, or whatever it is, they -- they're never going to -- they're never going to make it. So, can't do anything about it.

MELL: What do you see for the future of the union? Do you think it's going to get stronger or weaker?

CHAVEZ: I think it's weaker, um, can -- can't get these people to think strategically, it's always immediate.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: And I -- I'm trying to say that I knew this was going to happen. But that's me, but when I talk to these young people it's always -- it's right now, instant gratification. They don't think about anything in the future, uh, they just -- they just don't get the picture. I kind of -- it's always a matter of communication. And I think -- I can blame my own union, the IAM, because I think we need to do more training. Only thing that happens is, we have a program here at Placid Harbor that's called train the trainer. Well, they come train the trainer, and then the trainer's supposed to go back and train 00:58:00them. That doesn't happen.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: And so many -- oh, "Send me to school! Send me..." Yeah, they just want to go, one week vacation to Placid Harbor. They come back, throw their hands up in the air, they don't do nothing.

MELL: Oh yeah. Yeah.

CHAVEZ: And that's why, you know, I said, "I never went through that, that's not what I do."

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: But I think that's wrong. I think the concept was correct, in train the trainer, but the execution is not there.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: Now, how do you change it? Don't know.

MELL: It depends on who you send to the class. Some people can take the lead and go do it, and other people are, like you said, just getting a vacation. And then, one other thing, because you were so political, and did all of that, um, as the conductor sentinel, that sort of -- no? No conductor sentinel?

CHAVEZ: I'm sorry?

MELL: Were you a conductor sentinel?

CHAVEZ: No.

MELL: No? You just did the political and did that? Um, has someone followed in your footsteps?

CHAVEZ: No.

MELL: All right. (laughter)

CHAVEZ: They -- they -- I mean, we sent people there, but they don't come back and talk to the membership at a union meeting.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: I was at United, they tolerated it, because I would walk in with fliers. I went to every single -- every single, what do you call it, rest area for the -- everybody was at. And at lunchtime, it was my time. So, I passed out fliers, I put them up on bulletin boards. I've stood outside the gates of United Airlines and handed out fliers. You don't see anybody doing that now.

MELL: Yeah.

CHAVEZ: They said, "Who? Me?" Yeah, you. You know, they go to school, and have one good time down here. That's why I think you should do it in the winter.

MELL: (laughter) Nice! Oh! (laughter) Um, any other interesting stories from work or, uh, union, anything else that you participated in?

CHAVEZ: No, it's just -- I know we're shrinking. And I don't see anything turning around, it's a shame.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: The thing with the defined pension plan, they're almost all gone. What I'm hearing is 401(k)s and matching funds, there's stuff out there that they've got it figured out on the other side, and our people just don't care.

MELL: Yeah.

CHAVEZ: Defined pension plans are gone. And I had one, and then United Airlines, after I retired, went to bankruptcy, and I lost $300 off my pension at United.

MELL: Per month?

CHAVEZ: A month.

MELL: Ah.

CHAVEZ: A lot of guys did that.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: And nothing we can do about it. Everybody's, "Oh, it's going to go to the PBGC," Pension (inaudible) thing, and they says, "They're going to 01:01:00protect us." No, they're not. They're there for management. They're there for the bankruptcy court is not there to help us, it's to help the companies get back on their feet, and they don't go bankrupt. Strengthen the bottom line. That's what -- that's all they do. It's not a good thing with the PBGC to take over. But that's the way things are. And you can see it coming, because the pension plans, they don't keep them up to date. They start falling behind, and behind, and behind, and behind. At United, we knew it was coming two pension plans before that. But nobody listened, or the regulators just didn't force United to pay up. United always said, "Well, we have this problem, we have that problem. We'll do it and make it up." And then they go deeper, and deeper, and deeper. And then all of a sudden, uh oh, now I'm in trouble.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: Now, we go to the PBGC. The PBGC could've stopped all of that. They're all like that.

MELL: Yeah.

CHAVEZ: So, other than that, that's about it. I don't see it getting stronger, those are the reasons. People are still fighting Social Security. They don't like -- it's -- it's affordable healthcare, but they call it Obamacare. But I hear all sorts of stories how -- there should be some changes.

MELL: Mm-hmm.

CHAVEZ: But you've got to do something.

MELL: Yeah, you have to be willing to do something. So, well, thank you for your interview, thanks for joining me.

CHAVEZ: Well, thank you very much.