Michael Counihan oral history interview, 1996-08-14

 CHRIS LUTZ: Savannah, Georgia. Counihan, just to get a sound check, can you tell us when and where you were born?

MICHAEL COUNIHAN: I was born in Savannah, Georgia, March the 15th 1914. You love this job, don't you?

LUTZ: Yeah, I do. [inaudible]

COUNIHAN: Nice of you to have it.

LUTZ: Um, well, So, you grew up in Savannah?

COUNIHAN: I grew up in Savannah, yes.

LUTZ: What was Savannah like in the twenties?

COUNIHAN: Savannah, in those years, I guess we had about 80 to 85 thousand people. You knew just about everyone that passed along, lived next door to you or anywhere within the neighborhood. It was a great life here in those days.

LUTZ: Mmhmm. What did you do as a kid? Did they send you to work early?

COUNIHAN: No, I didn't go to work. I went through Mathers Brother School, and I went through Benedictine Military Academy. I took several courses in reference to organized labor.

LUTZ: You took courses at the military academy

COUNIHAN: No

LUTZ: Oh oh oh

COUNIHAN: When they kicked me out.

LUTZ: They kicked you out?

COUNIHAN: No, I got out, graduated as a Senior Captain, the militia.

LUTZ: Then where did you go?

COUNIHAN: I went to work with the Electrical Workers. My family knew one of the largest electric contractors here, Alston Engineering Company. I got a job with them. I went right on up through the ranks: foreman, general foreman, etc. After everything settled down, I, uh, ran for Business Manager in the Finance Secretary Men. I was elected and I stayed in office approximately 40 years

LUTZ: Good god

COUNIHAN: And I retired.

LUTZ: Wow [laughter]

COUNIHAN: Don't hold that against me.

LUTZ: All right [laughter]

COUNIHAN: Can they still hear that?

LUTZ: Yeah, they can hear you. [laughter]

COUNIHAN: Thank you [laughter]

LUTZ: We'll give you the transcript [laughter] [inaudible]. Um…well, when did you start. When did the 40-year part start, of the being an officer?

COUNIHAN: Ohwee…It started in . . . can't remember. I really can't.

LUTZ: Okay, after the Depression?

COUNIHAN: Yeah, after the Depression, it started after the Depression.

LUTZ: Well, let me take you back to the Depression. I guess you were an electrical worker then? Um, what was it like trying to find work during the depression?

COUNIHAN: Well, it…I wasn't at work then, I was still going to school. Then after that, I went to work, and the depression was long gone, thank God.

LUTZ: Ahhh

COUNIHAN: I went on to work.

LUTZ: What was the Depression like for a young man?

COUNIHAN: If it wasn't for the Democratic Party, and had these camps and so forth for them. They worked them on all government projects. They were paying them twelve dollars a week. That saved a lot of real young men about my age. I didn't go to work, I stayed in school. So that was a big, big relief for my 00:03:00family, myself too.

LUTZ: So you were at the military academy then?

COUNIHAN: Yeah

LUTZ: Did you say Benedictine?

COUNIHAN: Benedictine.

LUTZ: So, that must be Roman Catholic, also?

COUNIHAN: I'm a Roman Catholic.

LUTZ: Okay, well me too. Yay for the RC!

COUNIHAN: You are?

LUTZ: Yeah, sure.

COUNIHAN: [inaudible]

LUTZ: New York City….well…New Jersey. But my grandfather spent some time down here during the Depression. Um, looking for work. Plumber stuff. Not electrical stuff. No overlapping. How were people living in the Depression in Savannah?

COUNIHAN: They were living fairly well. For an example, normally they use wood stoves. The city would cut the trees down for an example, that would diseased us, essentially. They would deliver that to the real poor people. They could get various canned goods and so forth. It wasn't…it wasn't a starvation affair. It was just something that you had to get out and get it, which they 00:04:00had done and did very well with that.

LUTZ: So they cut down trees. Sad little trees. It's a great idea. Well, what made you decide to run for office?

COUNIHAN: Which one?

LUTZ: For the first time for the business manager position.

COUNIHAN: Well, I didn't like the way things were going as a matter of fact. I took it over, the local was broke. I built it up. When I first got money, I had this building built. Where nobody could get it, including myself. It went like that and the local did do very well. I was one of the fairest people with the contractors, but I didn't give them anything. They had a saying, particularly the international contractors. Mike runs a tight ship but, he's fair. That's the only bad thing I had against me with the contractors.

LUTZ: [inaudible] [laughter] Um, what made you decide to join the union in the first place?

COUNIHAN: Well because, for an example, I guess I can say this; I won't call 00:05:00any names. I went to work for Stationery Outfitter, a community job. I think I made eight or nine dollars a week, and I would bring my lunch. I was in the storeroom and everything was in a big bundle -- you couldn't find -- they kept ordering and ordering. I'd look around and find those particular types of envelopes and manila envelopes on hand. I went and told the boss. I said, 'Look, before you order, how about letting me know.' I got business start building bins. And I put all the stuff in it and had it all where -- He sent this guy in -- I had a little desk, and he sat at my desk and he wouldn't do nothing. So I said, "Man, look here now, you're gonna have to get in here and learn some way to do some of this work." "Well - I'm gonna run this 00:06:00when you leave." I said, "Oh! Thank you!" I went upstairs and resigned.

LUTZ: [Laughing] That would be the handwriting on the wall.

COUNIHAN: I was stupid, but I wasn't that stupid. Something hit ya in the face.

LUTZ: And so then, you automatically wanted to join the electrical workers.

COUNIHAN: No, I had to serve an apprentice. I did one. I did make application. The fee in those years was fifty-two dollars which was very reasonable. The dues were three dollars a month, plus you paid one percent of working assessment. And that wasn't too bad.

LUTZ: Okay. Well, how much would an electrical worker make in those days?

COUNIHAN: I'd say, the first raise I got only went up to $2.50. We thought a hundred dollars a week was tremendous. So we went from there on up to . . . I don't know what the rate is now, but it is pretty high.

LUTZ: [inaudible] What was the apprenticeship like?

COUNIHAN: The apprenticeship was very good. Matter of fact. We had this very smart man from, um, came from, um, Philadelphia, I think. And he and I got along very well. And when he couldn't teach school, I would. He had all the books, and I went through everything with him. I taught school for the rest of the term. And then I ran for this particular job.

LUTZ: When you go through apprenticeship, is the union hall supposed to then send you out on jobs when you graduate your position?

COUNIHAN: Well, for an example, if you graduated school four years -- as a matter of fact, I founded that apprenticeship program here. And I got a big plaque for it. Then you went to an examining board from your local union. And then if you passed, they were supposed to give you what they called a Journeymens Wymen's ticket that permitted you to go out and work as a first class electrician.

LUTZ: Yeah. Does the IBEW distribute one of those books to its members listing where the jobs are available?

COUNIHAN: Where the jobs are?

LUTZ: Yeah.

COUNIHAN: No, what happens, for an example, I had good relations particularly with New York and New Jersey and also Florida. I could call to have additional work. I'd send a man right to them. And They would put him on the job and pay him the rate, whatever it was in those particular locations.

LUTZ: But, you still go through the union to get a job?

COUNIHAN: Oh yes! We had to go right through the union holding that particular city.

LUTZ: Yeah, um, would the contractors care about that? Did they ever try to go around you, behind your back?

COUNIHAN: They had no complaint. Is that what we are trying to say?

LUTZ: Well, I am wondering if maybe they would say we will get non-union labor to do it? I think they're foolish to do that. I was wondering if they ever tried. [laughter]

COUNIHAN: Don't make me talk about that. Well, for an example, we had a few that would try to use non-union people. They wasn't trained, didn't go to school, and the jobs would fall through. Then, they would call us in and we 00:09:00would do it. But then, we started picket…putting up picket lines. We had pickets and groups. They called one the "Mule Train" and one "Broncos." They had names for themselves. They worked two or three hours a day, and they had a leader. The picket line was very, very successful, so we got tremendous amounts of work in that regard.

LUTZ: Why were they successful?

COUNIHAN: Well, when you have somebody up there with a picket, nobody is going to cross that picket line. I mean the non-union people, even, because when we would get a raise, they would get a raise. I had some non-union contractors who would say, "How did the negotiations go? I don't know? What did you get?" I'd say fifteen cents, twenty cents. "Well I'm going to get a raise too." That's what they'd tell me on the phone.

LUTZ: So, how did you get them to join the union? [inaudible]

COUNIHAN: Well they, most…in this local we were going very, very well. We could work anywhere in the country. We had a waiting list. We want to join the union, join the union, but we were very careful as to the education and into the background. If they meet that qualification, then of course we'd give 'em an application and a membership. We'd load them in and they would start their apprenticeship class. They wouldn't start if they were in with a non-union contractor as a electrician. They'd go down about their third or fourth year, and then if they improved, then we would kick 'em on out.

LUTZ: Well, I wanted a little [inaudible] [laughter]. 1940's and its World War II. Was there a lot of work in Savannah?

COUNIHAN: In Savannah, in our jurisdiction, we had five shipyards. We manned every one of them. So, I guess we were working thirty to thirty-five hundred electricians. Everything went very well with us. Of course we started a 00:11:00school, maritime work, ship work, and it helped greatly. 'Cause some of them didn't know port from starboard or stem from the bow, so it worked out very well.

LUTZ: Did you teach in that school?

COUNIHAN: No, I didn't teach in that school.

LUTZ: But, the union started it?

COUNIHAN: The union started it, and the union ran it.

LUTZ: What were you doing in the union during World War II?

COUNIHAN: During the World War, I went and registered for the services. It was Captain of the Marines, one from the Army, and one from the Navy. That was when they were sinking all them Navy boats. I answered their questions, and the Marines wanted me first. I said, "Jesus, I don't want to go to the Marines because they have a lot of work, they work you down.' This man from the Navy 00:12:00said, "No, I want him. He got Naval, he got experience." He put me in his thing. I went to Rolison[?], my employer and I resigned. I got money out my savings and put into the checking account for my wife. Put new tires on the car. That was seventeen days before I'd be shipped on down to Bainbridge, Maryland. So, I went ahead and got set up. They called me about three days before I was supposed to catch the train, and they said you're going to shipyard. I said, "Man, I got to be in Bainbridge in three more days. I can't goin' in no shipyard." "We can fix that." I don't know how they fixed it. This guy his name was . . . ah, they called him Bugs something. 00:13:00He was with Smith Shipbuilding, and he said I can go. I said, "When?" They said "Now." I said, "No, I can't go, I'll go in the morning." So, I went in the morning. And, and, a nice job -- had an office -- two secretaries.

LUTZ: [laughter] [inaudible]

COUNIHAN: That's what happened; I was very lucky.

LUTZ: Did you have your son then?

COUNIHAN: My son, yeah.

LUTZ: I talked to him on the phone. Any other kids? Any other children?

COUNIHAN: What happened, we had four boys. One of my sons had a girl and two boys. We excommunicated him from the family.

LUTZ; Wait a minute [laughter]

COUNIHAN: I'm going too far-fetched aren't I?

LUTZ: No no, it's okay. But You had four sons. Did any of them follow in your footsteps?

COUNIHAN: One of them, he's Jerry. He went to boarding school, military school. He came out and now he's a representative on the staff, fifth 00:14:00district staff. It's a good job. He was business manager up here. I broke him in as a matter of fact.

LUTZ: Was he your secretary. We can go that far. [laughter]

COUNIHAN: [inaudible]

LUTZ: Now, you…out of 40 years, this is a hard question, what would you look back and say those were the best things I did? Tell me about some of the highs.

COUNIHAN: The only high . . . the local was run down. We were completely broke. I had to cut salaries and reduce a few people. And then, started building up and put the money where it should have gone. And we built up a pretty treasury. And I believe that was one of the highlights that I felt so proud about. And I cut my own salary too, however. Everything worked out fine; I had no problem with being put back in office year after year after year.

LUTZ: Bet that was just fine, huh? [laughter]

COUNIHAN: That was my reward.

LUTZ: [inaudible][laughter] And you constructed this building?

COUNIHAN: Yeah.

LUTZ: Union labor I assume?

COUNIHAN: One hundred percent.

LUTZ: Um, if you could do something over again, what would you do over again?

COUNIHAN: Well, um, if I could go over again, it would be somewhat different. I didn't have the opportunities that you have now. I'd gone on to high schooling and tried to be some sort of a professional. But, uh, it just didn't work out that way. My father died. He was a machinist. He was a foreman for the railroad. And, uh, my mother raised nine of us, nine of us. And, um, she must have done a hell of a job. She was a great politician.

LUTZ: How so?

COUNIHAN: She could get anybody a job with the city of Savannah. Anytime we were running, her name was in the paper. Anita-Marie Counihan voting for Johnny Vaughan.

LUTZ: And that was very helpful. [laughter]

COUNIHAN: Helped her a lot, and her friends.

LUTZ: Must have helped her children too. [laughter]

COUNIHAN: Oh, yeah. They got fat and plump.

LUTZ: Yeah [laughter] I wouldn't say that.

COUNIHAN: [laughter] Well you can erase that.

LUTZ: Yeah, okay, I won't put it down in the transcript. Well, who would look back and say this person was a mentor?

COUNIHAN: That would be my oldest brother. He, uh, name was John. He was self educated. He was the chief teller in the Exchange Bank. The Exchange Bank is 00:17:00gone since then. And, um, bookkeeper. And he, he weighed 165 pounds when I known him. When he died he weighed 165. He stayed in shape, no smoking, no drinking -- stayed in good shape. Never did marry – And, uh, he did a beautiful job financially.

LUTZ: Anyone else?

COUNIHAN: No, nobody else.

LUTZ: Well, it's nice to have your own brother as a mentor. Tell me about the 1950s in Savannah. You saw a lot of changes.

COUNIHAN: 1950. . . .

LUTZ: What were the '50s like for a union?

COUNIHAN: In 1950, it wasn't a large work going on. We had most of the small work - even bungalows. That's right, bungalows. Did a lot of work in Brunswick, over in South Carolina, ah, the, the naval base, we did all that. 00:18:00We did a lot of work in Jesup, Georgia, we picked up that. We would have to travel, but it was within riding distance. So we didn't find it too hard.

LUTZ: Back up a second, I want to ask more about the fifties. How did it happen that you were wiring bungalows?

COUNIHAN: The bungalows -- the home associations -- normally non-union, they'd pick up these guys and they'd do it. So we, one of them got in a jam, so we went ahead and straightened the bungalows up. And then they had 33 contractors in that group. And we were doing work for 17 of them, all their work. They would just switch you. We guaranteed our work, if they didn't put it in right, the man would go back during regular working time. He'd put it in properly. If he had to…if he hurt material or ruined material, he had to buy 00:19:00that material. And we saw to it that they did. That's a good guarantee.

LUTZ: Yeah, it really is -- so that's why bungalows then. A lot of business construction in Savannah in the fifties?

COUNIHAN: Yeah, we did a lot of commercial building, banks and so forth. We did a lot of that.

LUTZ: Looking around, it looks like you never knock anything down here. It's a lovely city. [Laughs]

COUNIHAN: This…this is . . . they're crazy over these old historic buildings. They get a cheaper property tax rate than I'd get.

LUTZ: Oh, I see.

COUNIHAN: That isn't right. Because of home to you. They are really beautiful. [Inaudible] Off this corner, they were all white, good neighborhoods, but it's just, boom! They flipped over!

LUTZ: Yeah, it looks pretty worn down. There's a beautiful library right down there.

COUNIHAN: They're gonna enlargen it. That's one of the prettiest you're 00:20:00going to see.

LUTZ: [inaudible] Anyhow, back to the 1950's in Savannah, what was it like living in the 1950's in Savannah?

COUNIHAN: Everybody here was very friendly like I first stated. We got along very well. All of them would go up to the same barroom like Gildes on Victor Drive after work. Everybody was congenial. We didn't have nobody fighting, no neighbors fighting. Once in a while they'd get in a scrap, but then the best man won and that was the end of it. That's about the only thing that really remains in my mind.

LUTZ: Tell me about a couple scraps?

COUNIHAN: I was attending -- in Atlanta, I think it was. I parked my car here eight or nine o'clock. I used to keep beer for the members in the box. It was 00:21:00warm and late. I'll call my wife and let her know I'd be down shortly. I drank a beer or two. I went down right at this corner. Three guys jumped on me. Should I say this?

LUTZ: Yeah, why not. Happened years ago. Don't worry.

COUNIHAN: Well anyway, they kind of hitting me all over. I grabbed one of them, and I popped him in the stomach. He started hollering--tells them guys to get in the car and go. [laughter] He hollered at them, and they let me go--tells them to get in that car and drive off. "You get in my car." So, I lived at the beach. I got to Wilmington, halfway to the beach. I got him out that car, and I worked him over. I left him in the lot down there. "How do I get 00:22:00home?" I said, "Walk back." Then I finally called the other two. I didn't like that, I mean one at a time, you know.

LUTZ: Were they a against the union or were they just muggers?

COUNIHAN: The union what?

LUTZ: Were they against the union…?

COUNIHAN: No no, they was just, they was just drinking and wanted to get smart. They picked on the wrong guy.

LUTZ: I guess so. Um, did the union ever have to get into any strikes here?

COUNIHAN: Any what?

LUTZ: Any strikes? Ever go on strike here?

COUNIHAN: Can't…

LUTZ: Did you ever go on strike here?

COUNIHAN: Strike? Oh, yeah. We went on strike on several occasions. And one of them was down at AT&T [inaudible] at Jesup, Georgia. We put a picket line up, and we had what we call a round robin. They just walk in a circle in front of the union. So, uh, I went in, and I talked to management. They said all right, 00:23:00bring them in and we will sit down and talk. So I went to the picket line, and I told them to put their pickets up. And the various representatives come on in with me, which we did. We sat down, and we had to settle in thirty-five to forty minutes. And then one of the guys had a gun. And, uh, well, he was a Savannah man. And those boys up there, they're not city people. So, he got fouled up, and I went out there and stopped it. It would have been terrible, and I made him go home. I made him come back here. Then we went back, and we had several pickets up there for the same reasoning. So, we settled that.

LUTZ: Mmhmm, settle it well? Then, what happened?

COUNIHAN: It satisfied me.

LUTZ: [laughter] Oh, all right. Tell me another one.

COUNIHAN: We had one, the union camp. We picketed the propagator. He's the designated [inaudible]. One of the pickets was deliberately ran over by a non-union worker. We called the police, and, uh, we couldn't even bring him to court.

LUTZ: Why not?

COUNIHAN: Justice administration at that time was probably anti-union. They just go by a whim.

LUTZ: That's terrible. Do you remember the name of the guy who was hit?

COUNIHAN: Say what?

LUTZ: Do you remember the name of the guy who was hit?

COUNIHAN: No, I don't remember.

LUTZ: What finally happened with that strike?

COUNIHAN: We finally settled it and went back to work.

LUTZ: Settlement satisfy you?

COUNIHAN: It surely did.

LUTZ: Was Savannah not a union town?

COUNIHAN: Savannah was highly union. We had the city…the city workers, county workers, police, firemen--all were well-organized.

LUTZ: Politicians pretty friendly then?

COUNIHAN: Who?

LUTZ: Would you say the politicians were pretty friendly to you all then?

COUNIHAN: Well the one that ran…I won't call his name, he's dead now, he ran Chatham County and the city. And, uh, when they need the little money, they'd call me, those days five or six hundred dollars. I just would take it, put it on the desk and walk out. And, we never did have a problem with the county or city government. We didn't buy them now.

LUTZ: How about ministers, and church people?

COUNIHAN: Church people? They go a hundred percent. We've had no problem with them, the church people.

LUTZ: Savannah must have been a good place to be.

COUNIHAN: It was a good place to come up in . . .[inaudible] For example: when they had this trouble over in South Carolina in the mills, all the ministers went and the Catholic bishop. They settled that thing. They got 'em…they used to call them "Lent Heads". You know. [inaudible] They settled it, and they were very, very helpful.

LUTZ: When was that?

COUNIHAN: Oh, I can't remember that.

LUTZ: When did Savannah start changing?

COUNIHAN: Are you a Yankee?

LUTZ: Originally.

COUNIHAN: Well, I better not say that.

LUTZ: Alright, we're the Yankees [inaudible][laughter]

COUNIHAN: It appeared to me, and I'm not a fortunteller. I felt like when they started coming in. They went ahead and kinda took over. Got into politics, which was their right because they were paying taxes like I was or you. They did kind of take the town and run it to suit themselves. Like, we got a place--Langleys--they want to put…they want it to become a city and put a fence around it. Allow nobody to come, but they wouldn't grant a charter to become a city due to the fact that they were isolating the public. So, they dropped that completely. All wealthy up there.

LUTZ: Ah, at the Langleys.

COUNIHAN: Mmhmm

LUTZ: That's interesting. And odd too. Well when did the Yankees come in? You won't hurt my feelings. I was just born there.

COUNIHAN: I've got more friends in the northern section of the country than I 00:28:00have elsewhere. They started coming in, like an example, during the war and after the war. Like w hen…they were stationed here in most cases and met these Georgia girls, married them, had children and they remained here. They're still coming in.

LUTZ: Take it as a compliment 'cause Georgia girls are so pretty. [laughter]

COUNIHAN: Say what? [laughter]

LUTZ: Take it as a compliment they thought Georgia girls were so pretty.

COUNIHAN: I have to second that motion. They are . . . I married one.

LUTZ: Right. Did you…was your wife from Savannah too?

COUNIHAN: Oh yeah! Lived two blocks from me.

LUTZ: Oh, you grew up together? That's so [inaudible]

COUNIHAN: No, I was a little older than she was -- I remember seeing her at church and all, walking by her house going to my home. We just started talking.

LUTZ: And one thing led to another. And you got married. I know [laughter]

COUNIHAN: Well she didn't. She only dated about two or three guys in her life, she wasn't outgoing.

LUTZ: Yeah

COUNIHAN: And then when I started dating her she didn't date nobody for two and half years. I asked her if she would marry me, and foolishly she said, "Yes."

LUTZ: [laughter] She figured what the hey.

COUNIHAN: We had a very good marriage for fifty-five years. We did very well, I'm happy about that.

LUTZ: You're on Tybee Island now?

COUNIHAN: Yes.

LUTZ: What made you move back to Tybee?

COUNIHAN: Well, see, somebody told you about me.

LUTZ: No, I mean except that I should talk to you.

COUNIHAN: What happened, I was working. I used to go to Tybee and rent a room for the weekend. They had this hotel they called the Isle Hotel. It's right behind the Favorite Bar on 16th Street. I went there and inquired. They said it's fifty dollars a year. I says what. That was a lot of money then. I paid 00:30:00them and I'd be at Tybee. Friday, I'd leave the job, and go shower and put on some swim trunks and I'd hit the ocean. But then we'd got them to put a light out and we go in at high tide like 'til ten o'clock at night. We'd all be out there swimming . . . It was so cool and nice. Girls and boys --

LUTZ: It was beauitiful.

COUNIHAN: Yeah

LUTZ: So that's why you went back.

COUNIHAN: Yeah

LUTZ: Yeah

COUNIHAN: So I went ahead. My brother liked it -- We bought some land from the Coast Guard. We decided we'd build a house, and now my son has built a house on it.

LUTZ: Is your brother still out there too?

COUNIHAN: No, he's passed away.

LUTZ: Sorry. Um. What were your favorite parts of your job?

COUNIHAN: Favorite parts of my job?

LUTZ: Yeah, favorite parts of your job. What did you like best?

COUNIHAN: 4:30.

LUTZ: [laughter] Quitting time. You don't miss it?

COUNIHAN: No, I had very good relations. I really enjoyed my job, but I was away from home pretty often. At times I would take my wife if I could. I had five sisters, and they would mind our children. They would come and just take them. We didn't ask them, they would just come and take them.

LUTZ: Yeah, that's handy. Um. What was the least favorite part of your job the?

COUNIHAN: The least?

LUTZ: Yeah, what did you dislike the most about your job?

COUNIHAN: Well, uh, I didn't have too much difficulty. Only, we had a few members who would come in, and they might pull a knife on you. [inaudible] That never worried me.

LUTZ: Did someone every actually do that to you?

COUNIHAN: Oh, yeah, used to keep one in here.

LUTZ: Your desk drawer. What did you do when this happened? [inaudible]

COUNIHAN: I would get up and walk around and ask them, 'What's your problem?' These two were from Jesup, Georgia. They were brothers. And they'd always. I would get out the car then, suddenly I would had their hunting knife at my throat. But I never do nothing to them. They always were working, but they drank. Do you know what shine corn is?

LUTZ: Yeah.

COUNIHAN: Well, that's what they drank; it's a hundred proof.

[inaudible]

LUTZ: Well, it might have impacted their thinking processes?

COUNIHAN: I got them from thinking that way after awhile.

LUTZ: [inaudible] Wasn't that healthy [inaudible] drink the liquor [inaudible] pull the knives. [laughter] So, would they come down here from Jesup?

COUNIHAN: Yeah, they would come, it's just sixty miles. They would come here most of the time I used to try to work them between Brunswick and Jesup. Then again I'd have to bring them here. When they were here, they were just like 00:33:00that fish-boat box -- didn't hear nothing out of them. Then come in my office.

LUTZ: [laughter] Little confused. Um. What were the sixties like in Savannah?

COUNIHAN: [inaubile]

LUTZ: Remember the sixties?

COUNIHAN: I can't quite recall that period of time.

LUTZ: Not a very exciting period of time, I guess? [laughter] Um.

COUNIHAN: Then in the 70s, I ran for mayor at the beach, I won it and stayed there fourteen years.

LUTZ: Okay, well, I want to ask about that -- Savannah Beach? Right?

COUNIHAN: Yeah.

LUTZ: What on earth possessed you to run for mayor?

COUNIHAN: What happened, as they did when they first got the charter some way, way back. That same outfit was running it. I mean not the same people, but they 00:34:00put [inaudible]. Fran and they just kept -- The people from Tybee came to me, I lived on Columbus Drive. They came to me and said, "We want to have some opposition." I said, "Well, you sure need it." I had a little place down there. I said, "You sure need it." "Would you come down and help us?" I said, "Yeah." I went down. God, they must of had thirty or forty people. I told them the [inaudible] three councilmen came from Savannah, three councilmen had to live with Tybee and the mayor had to live in Tybee. I said, "You're not going to beat them head-on." I said "The best thing to do, get one man from Savannah to run and one from Tybee to run, but don't vote for nobody else. If you want to vote for the mayor, but don't vote for no other 00:35:00councilman." So we went in there, and I got 600 people voting, and I got 500 of them. I won and, my buddy won it. [inaudible] So from then on, I just told them, I am running for mayor. This guy was the mayor. He owned a tennis court there. He had been the mayor for years and years [inaudible]. Shellacking [inaudible] just kept going like that.

LUTZ: How did you campaign? Did you go door to door?

COUNIHAN: That's the way I did it. I went from door to door. Had parties out in the park, had a little keg of beer, and barbecue. What's wrong with that?

LUTZ: No, that's what they do. That's how you win the office. [laughter]

COUNIHAN: That's the way we did it.

LUTZ: That's how they got to know you. What did you do as mayor?

COUNIHAN: Well, well.

LUTZ: What were your responsibilities

COUNIHAN: We improved the town completely. Everything was run down. Put in a new sewer system, new water system. We put the disposal plant--everything went 00:36:00in the river, and we fixed that. We paved, I don't know how many streets. And, um, we took city hall - it was a rumble. We really improved it, re-lighted it. Fixed everything in it. And it, we fixed -- We had a nice park, Memorial Park, we fixed that up completely had restrooms in it, and kept them clean. Things like that, and fixed the boardwalk, all that was rotted and the railing was all rusted. We didn't do that all in one day or one year. It took time. And we had the beach re-marshed. And the seawall let. The seawall is something that keeps the ocean from coming into the mainland. A hole broke through that and I knew the Corps of Engineers by name. And I called them that night at home. Next morning they had these big stones down there patching it up. And people went crazy about that. So I did that and I fixed any sea wall that needed 00:37:00bracing. We braced that, we did, we did. We built a new jail. And we built, I forgot what they call that, but we built it on the boardwalk. And I wanted that to be for the police, a holding cell. So they turned it over to some museum now. We fit the old [inaudible] down there and then we converted them. Got a museum there now. We got a supper club, and that's really pretty. It runs the whole length of that building and you can see it. Everything out in the ocean. And, that, put in several parking lots, paved the parking lots. And, uh, then, tennis courts, basketball courts, softball, baseball courts, I had all those lighted. And I got my contractors to do it at cost. [laughter] See that? 00:38:00[inaudible] That was what we did. It was really very nice. We took care of the kids. I had the police officers to go into Memorial Park and cook'em hamburgers and hot dogs, in their uniform And they'd would feed the kids and the kids would know that the police ain't bad. We had good relations all around, at least I thought.

LUTZ: That's a nice idea. Um, did the union…after you retired, did the union stay with a lot of members? Did a lot of the members stay in the union? That's what I'm trying to say. Did the union memberships keep up? Oh, okay. [laughter] Um, if you could say anything to young union members today, what would you tell them?

COUNIHAN: I would tell them this strictly. Honor the constitution which is 00:39:00made up by the International union. Honor your bylaws. At least honor your working agreements and respect your contract. Not giving them nothing, just respect. You know, sometimes they're right.

LUTZ: Yeah. [inaudible]

COUNIHAN: You look like you don't believe that

LUTZ: I could see that you were starting to smile too. [laughter] But sometimes they are. That's fair.

COUNINHAN: [laughter] Yeah, I tried. I tried to emphasize.

LUTZ: Yeah. Okay, uh, what are you doing now?

COUNIHAN: Well, this is a personal matter what I do now with my family. I am ninety years old. Kind of watching my finances.

LUTZ: Oh oh oh, I meant, what are you doing in retirement to stay busy?

COUNIHAN: Oh oh, well, see, I got a beach down there that keeps you busy. It's just sand, we don't have any actually soil. We tolerate it, and I stay 00:40:00busy down there at the beach. And I go to a few council meetings and so forth. I don't show myself, but I just go to talk to them.

LUTZ: What year did you retire?

COUNIHAN: I retired in '84.

LUTZ: Okay. From mayoring and from unioning together?

COUNIHAN: No, I retired from mayoring at first,

LUTZ: Uh huh

COUNIHAN: I forgot what year.

LUTZ: Uh huh

COUNIHAN: They had all these old black and white pictures of the past men and dates. My daughter said, 'You're not gonna hang your picture up there.' So she took me to a photographer. It's not uh, you know, all, painted. What do you call it?

LUTZ: Right. I, uh, colorized?

COUNIHAN: Yeah

LUTZ: Something like that.

COUNIHAN: Yes. Well she just made it faint. Now from the mayor from me all of them are using that same type of photograph. You know, you are looking up there and all of them had these old collars you know. [laughter] I respect them, but I wasn't going to look like that. I look bad enough when I'm dressed up much less putting something like that on me.

LUTZ: Um, well, we started early, and so it looks like we're going to finish early, but, um, I just want to ask you one or two other things. Looking back would you say this was a good life?

COUNIHAN: I had a good life. My life was excellent. Particularly religious -- I go to church regularly and I donate my particular share. All my kids were married in the Cathedral, I was married in the Cathedral, and all of them was baptized in the cathedral. My mother and father were married there.

LUTZ: Do you feel that, uh, it was good to be in Savannah all this time? [inaudible]

COUNIHAN: Yeah, I thought this…due to the climate and due to the friendliness of the people. You…for example: if you lived in our neighborhood, I lived in Greenswood neighborhood. If you lived in that particular area, if one of your children was sick, uh, if you were sick, you didn't have to cook. You would have that soup, bread—thing…you know what sick people. . . .I don't care what happened. If your mother was in the hospital, those kids were, were up on time to go to school, dressed properly, handed lunch and went to school. And that's what you call a neighborhood and good people. None of them was wealthy. But they cared for you.