Elmer Hamilton oral history interview, 2006-07-13

NORMAN SLAWSKY: This is Norman Slawsky. It's about 2:20 on July 13, 2006. I'm speaking with Elmer Hamilton at his home at 5100 Cochran Mill Road in Fairburn, Georgia. Elmer's sitting right opposite me. We spent some time going over his background and Elmer is going to describe his family background. Where he grew up and what it was like growing up. Grandparents and parents and whatever. So, you just get started.

ELMER HAMILTON: I, as you said, I grew up in South Carolina, Hilton Head, South Carolina. It wasn't then what it is today. It was always inaccessible to the 00:01:00general public. Hilton Head was an island all to itself. I was born there, I went to school there. Went to a one room school house. Everybody was sitting in the same room. A cousin of mine, Reginald Campbell, he's related to Emory Campbell…

SLAWSKY: The one that spoke at your dinner?

HAMILTON: Yes. He was one of my teachers. At the time there was one teacher. As 00:02:00the time grew on, there were several other teachers, but it was always in a one room schoolhouse.

SLAWSKY: Was the schoolhouse on Hilton Head?

HAMILTON: Everything was on Hilton Head. We got to leave Hilton Head occasionally by boat, by a man the name of Mr. Charlie Simmons. He died just the beginning of this year. He was up in age when he died. He had a motor boat that 00:03:00took us to Savannah. He took a lot of people to Savannah. Anybody that would farm on Hilton Head, they would grow some beans and peas and some watermelon and stuff like that. If there was anything over, they would send it with him to Savannah. I guess it took about – I can imagine – 3 hours to get there, to Savannah by boat.

SLAWSKY: How long did it take to get from Hilton Head to the mainland in Savannah?

HAMILTON: That's what I'm saying. By that way, it took about 3 hours. You went from Hilton Head, through the past Daufuskie and on to Savannah. It was about 3 hours by the boat. Because there wasn't one of the speeding boats that 00:04:00they have now. It was an old boat and it took us that when we went on that boat to Savannah.

SLAWSKY: Did you ever take – the way that the causeway goes now into Bluffton – did you ever take – was there a boat going to Bluffton?

HAMILTON: Yes, very few. Very few occasions we had the opportunity to go to Bluffton because at that time Bluffton was – there was nothing there. Just a few people. We took the boat. You could take a row boat over to Bluffton. I went 00:05:00to Bluffton that way, but that took only about 1 hour, 45 minutes to an hour.

SLAWSKY: Did you live on Hilton Head until? Did you go to high school there too?

HAMILTON: I left Hilton Head when my mother passed. I left in 1950. Leaving Hilton Head was temporary for me because I always went back in the summer and constantly I stayed over there.

SLAWSKY: Did your grandparents live on Hilton Head?

HAMILTON: No. My grandparents was deceased by the year I was born.

SLAWSKY: On both sides?

HAMILTON: Yes. My father and my mother – I was told about them, but my great-grandfather – who's name was Isaac Hamilton, he was a slave and when he was free he had enough money to buy many acres of land on Hilton Head. Today, I still have that land which he purchased. Much of it was sold to people but my 00:07:00mother saved hers and when it got to me and my uncle there were about 10 acres left. So we kept it. Today – now that you mention it – I got a call today from someone to sell a portion of the 10 acres. He's not going to be able to do that.

SLAWSKY: Growing up on Hilton Head, you mentioned that you used to take trips to Savannah and take a row boat over to Bluffton. Did you have any brothers or sisters that grew up with you on Hilton Head?

HAMILTON: My younger brother, who is Steve, he lives in South Carolina now in a place called Dale, South Carolina. Another brother, Isaac, named after great-grandfather, he passed away in Florida quite a few years ago. [inaudible] is my brother's concern because he's in South Carolina today. I have some half-brothers, who's been in the labor movement under the Longshoremen. I hear that his name is Scott. He's about 80 something years old now. He's still 00:09:00living. George and Jenny Fraser who lived in New York – his father gave him lots of money, but my father had land and he allowed them to go to New York. He got involved with a lady and got married up there. He used to come back and forth all of the time. He has, I don't know, how many children – 3 sons now 00:10:00living, and 1 daughter who has died. We all get along just like we are brothers.

SLAWSKY: You mentioned that when you were 13, after your mother passed away, you left Hilton Head. Where did you go and who did you live with?

HAMILTON: I left Hilton Head and my aunt who lived in Savannah – her name was Eloise Brown - and her husband. They took my sister and myself to Savannah. 00:11:00Steve and Isaac, they father was – he was living over in Buford and he had them. But my mother never wanted us to separate.

SLAWSKY: What was your sister's name?

HAMILTON: Minnie.

SLAWSKY: Was she older or younger?

HAMILTON: She's younger than I am. She lives in Philadelphia today.

SLAWSKY: So you and Minnie and Steve and Isaac all went to Savannah?

HAMILTON: No, just Minnie and myself went to Savannah. Isaac and Steve went over to Buford. So we had to communicate between Steve and Isaac and it was not easy 00:12:00being young and they were younger than I was. We maintained the contact.

SLAWSKY: What was your aunt's name?

HAMILTON: Eloise Brown.

SLAWSKY: Eloise Brown. Did she have children?

HAMILTON: Yes, she had only one son when I moved there in 1950. She had only one son. But in years to come she had another son – I guess about 6 children she had after that.

SLAWSKY: How long did you live with your aunt?

HAMILTON: Oh, I lived with my aunt from when I was 13 until I finished high school.

SLAWSKY: Did you attend high school in Savannah?

HAMILTON: Yes.

SLAWSKY: Which high school did you attend?

HAMILTON: Beech High.

SLAWSKY: Beech High School.

HAMILTON: Beech High. I stayed with her and I left my aunt and I left her home in '55 when I joined the Navy – and I left.

SLAWSKY: Did you join the Navy from Savannah?

HAMILTON: From Savannah.

SLAWSKY: Why did you join the Navy?

HAMILTON: I don't know. I was used to being near water and I liked the Navy 00:14:00and I just joined. No particular reason. I didn't want to join the Army, I wanted to join the Navy.

SLAWSKY: Where were you stationed in the Navy?

HAMILTON: Oh wow. First, I went to – the day I went to South Carolina – you go to Columbia, South Carolina, that's where you find out whether or not they're going to use you. There was thousands of us. Thousands of guys there. I found out that I passed the tests and everything. That afternoon they asked 00:15:00for 10 days to travel that night. It was the same night, by plane to Atlanta and on to Chicago. It was the first part of January. And I don't need to tell you, coming from the South and going into Chicago at that time…

SLAWSKY: So you were in the group of ten people?

HAMILTON: I was the 10th person. As a matter of fact, I was waving, cause no 00:16:00body – a lot of guys weren't anxious to leave, you know?

SLAWSKY: Your experience in the Navy, when you were first inducted, and you mentioned that you got to be the 10th sailor on a plane from Columbia, SC to Atlanta to Chicago. So you ended up in January in 1955 in Chicago.

HAMILTON: You know what January is in Chicago when it is winter time. Oh my goodness.

SLAWSKY: Was that the first time you had been any distance from Hilton Head or Savannah?

HAMILTON: Yes. That's the first time I had the opportunity to be on a plane, 00:17:00to be that distance away from my home.

SLAWSKY: Had you ever left Georgia or South Carolina before you went on that plane?

HAMILTON: Where would I go?

SLAWSKY: You ever leave Savannah? In other words, most of your life was spent in Chatham County? Or Savannah?

HAMILTON: The time that I was there, I was in Chatham County except in the summertime when school was closed. My father would take me with them in Florida and my father was a shrimper. He took me – we used to go to Campeche, Mexico. Take his boat from Florida – Tampa or St. Petersburg to…

SLAWSKY: So you used to work summers on the shrimp boat?

HAMILTON: About 3 or 4 summers.

SLAWSKY: When you were in high school?

HAMILTON: Yes. But I don't think that's what encouraged me to join the Navy. Because I hated that. We would sleep all day and work all night. When you bring that net up in the morning…

SLAWSKY: Hard work.

HAMILTON: It wasn't so much hard work, it was hard work too – but the smell. 00:19:00I had to leave. I had to go inside the boat. We did that for a number of years.

SLAWSKY: So you're used to spending time on the ocean, on a boat.

HAMILTON: That's the only time, during the summer, I would go away to Florida and to be with him during the summer. I would spend time in Florida with him at home. I would go down there and we would pal around. My father was a person – he was educated through pen school. My father always had a way of making some 00:20:00money. He always had money. He always had fine cars and clothes. The Sheriff and police that were around St. Augustine knew that and didn't like him for it. Every time they would catch me driving the car, they would pull me over or pull 00:21:00someone over just to check us out. One night we went to Daytona Beach and my half-sister was driving. She was speeding too. We passed the police and we switched drivers – because she didn't have a license. We switched drivers, so they charged me with speeding. He didn't see us when we switched drivers. He charged me with speeding, took all my money. I'm thinking my father knew where we were. Because while we were stopped by the police, he called my father 00:22:00while he was there. Oh gosh, why'd he do that? So he told him that he stopped us and said we were speeding and stuff. Then he told him we were almost to Daytona. So when I got back early Sunday morning, he didn't say anything. When we woke up during the day, I needed some money because the guy took all my money. He said, what's with the money I gave you? I told him and that's when he found out that we were speeding. He knew that the police always stopped him, 00:23:00and stopped us when we were driving around St. Augustine.

SLAWSKY: Were you living in St. Augustine?

HAMILTON: No. Just visiting.

SLAWSKY: Your father lived in St. Augustine?

HAMILTON: Yes. My father lived in Florida.

SLAWSKY: But when he went to Mexico, was he?

HAMILTON: Yes. He was living in St. Augustine. I went to Florida to spend the summer with him. He'd go on the boat and I'd go with him. I had no idea that we'd end up in Mexico to go fishing. I was in the storm back in the early part – it was in the early '50s – when the storm – I forget the name of it 00:24:00– caught us out there. It was rough, rough, rough. We thought we were going to drown out there. It's too hard to tell. He managed to bring that boat in. Because we were in the ocean and we had to cross over. The weather start down there, and boy, when it csught us we were loaded with shrimp and we shipped some when the ship got into town to the States and then when you come, you bring the 00:25:00rest. We were loaded with shrimp. There's no way that we was going to stay. I had given up. My father maintained it all the way. He maintained it. That was rough, rough, rough.

SLAWSKY: So you ended up in Chicago in the Navy. Where did you get shipped out from there?

HAMILTON: From the boot camp – you spend the time there, they give you 15 days 00:26:00at home. You would come home and go back to Port Smith, Virginia, aboard a destroyer. I was one of the – there was only three blacks in my whole company. I was one of the blacks. There was two of us that got transferred to the destroyer. The other one was white. Not that it makes a difference, but just to tell you back then how things were.

SLAWSKY: How was your experience in the Navy?

HAMILTON: Well, I'm getting to that. I'm getting to that. I was put on the deck. Part of the deck force that paint and chip and paint and re-paint and 00:27:00stuff like that. I didn't want to be on the deck force. I put in a transfer for – to go to the engineering division – and I was denied all the way. What they had to do – make sure it went all the way to Bureau. [Inaudible]. So it went there. They agreed to the fact that I would be come off the deck force and put on the engineering part. I can remember today, the day as if it was 00:28:00yesterday. The guy's name was Perry. He said, 'You would like the engine room, because it's hot and it is good for your color down there in the engine room.' He was angry because he was overstepped by the Bureau. I went down in the engine room. I was the only black in the forward engine room. The forward engine room was the main engine room. There was two engine rooms on the ship. The forward and the after. But the forward engine room is where all the 00:29:00decisions are made. The after engine room is just – they do the same thing, but the follow what happens in the first. I got in the – I remember the guy's name. Rhineheart, was the second class officer, petty officer – in the forward engine room. Bradley was a second class. But Rhineheart was in charge. 00:30:00Rhineheart put me in charge of all the recruits that came with me in the forward engine room. Rhineheart and Bradley told me, he said, 'You are in charge.' In other words – and I don't know anything about being in charge – he said, 'you are in charge. Whatever you tell them to do, we will back you up. But if you don't tell them to do it, you're going to have to do it yourself.' So they took me under their wing and said that while they are doing 00:31:00the other work like cleaning the bilges and all this other work, we will teach you the engine room. And they did.

HAMILTON: Okay, I've been trying to find Rhinehart and Bradley. Not so much Bradley, but Rhinehart for years. He was from Jersey, but I could never find him. I just want to thank him from the opportunity he gave me. Now let me back up a little bit. When we finished in Port Smith, Virginia shipyard the ship had 00:32:00to go to Guantanamo for training. That's why I'm so familiar with Guantanamo. During those years, remember that Castro was fighting. I could hear the guns and all that. But I was on the ship. We'd go in and we'd go on the base and play ball and stuff like that and then come back to the ship. All the time I was learning, and there was a lot to learn about the engine room, and Rhinehart says to me, 'you are to learn the engine room and if you don't 00:33:00learn it, you are going to be subject to the work.' While they were doing the work – the dirty work – and they were teaching me – I mean the whole engine room. We made water, we made the electricity, we made the combustion, and all the related in-between that. He made sure that I knew how to do it. One summer day, one day I was finished – I got orders from the destroyer. This was after we had left Guantanamo, and spent some time going overseas and all of that 00:34:00on the USS Wren, was this destroyer's name.

SLAWSKY: Wren?

HAMILTON: Wren.

SLAWSKY: W-R-E-N?

HAMILTON: Hum-um. When I got back, I don't know how many times or when – overseas, but this time I was given orders for – again, I had to request and I get the note, 'denied', every time. And when I got it from the Bureau of Personnel I had gotten transferred, because they said yes, he goes. Transferred from the USS Wren to the USS Grand Canyon. That was a repair ship. A big, big, 00:35:00big repair ship. It was stationed in Fall River, Mass. That's where it was stationed. But when I got back off of leave one Monday morning, I was downstairs in the engine room sleeping. Because I had to make it like that because I knew my job by now. I was told by the yeoman, who was black, he said, 'You are leaving the ship today. Whether you wanted to take a 14 day leave or not. 00:36:00You've got to leave today.' I packed my bag and stuff, and by 9 o'clock I was off the ship, off the USS Wren. Now Rhinehart was still there. He was slated to be discharged maybe a week or two after I left and so was Bradley. Boy, I was so glad. Because they were – I took the example for a third class petty officer. I didn't know if it was because I was on the ship, or another ship 00:37:00– and the ship, when I got there, they were leaving going back to the Mediterranean, when I got in. It happened in the summer and it was in November that they finally caught up me that I had made third class petty officer. I couldn't believe it. So I was made petty office, third class.

SLAWSKY: That's when you were on…

HAMILTON: The repair ship. The Grand Canyon.

SLAWSKY: Did you work in the engine room on the Grand Canyon?

HAMILTON: I didn't work in the engine room. I wanted to be in refrigeration. That is a special kind of work. It's a large ship. We had refrigerators bigger 00:38:00than this room. Full of food and stuff like that, all over the ship. They put me in the refrigeration room and I was in the refrigeration room for about a year before I knew I was third class. I was going to be next to go into compartment cleaning. In other words, the new guys go into compartment cleaning and sweeping and cleaning and stuff like that. I was next to go because they went to 00:39:00everybody and they were doubling up on me. I told them – I was never in compartment cleaning - but I told them yes I did compartment cleaning, but it was getting back to me. Low and behold, this third class petty officer came through for me. The guy came and told me from the day I took the test that I was third class petty officer from that day until now. I couldn't wait. He told me on a Sunday afternoon. I couldn't wait until the store opened during the day 00:40:00because I go and I buy my third class pins. The guy told me, 'What are you doing? Are you crazy?' I was most, most happy. I was working in the refrigeration room, but during this time, I put in for the refrigeration class, which is a school, a class C school in Norfolk, Virginia. Again, I got disapproved, disapproved, disapproved, disapproved. The Bureau of Naval 00:41:00Personnel, they gave me the go-ahead to go. They wouldn't tell me the chief tried to get the orders changed into his name so he could go to keep me from going. But they told him that I had to go because it was in my name and I was expected down there with a ship on Sunday afternoon. I was to be there by 9 o'clock Monday morning. So I was one of the first ones off the ship and they took me down to the train and got me on the train to go into Norfolk. I stayed 00:42:00there and I finished. Now you got there – it's a hard school. It's a school in refrigeration. You say, I sure hope I don't have to face these guys and go back. But I passed, I passed, I passed. Every time. When I got back, I was the third class petty officer, waiting for my next stripe. I went on to second class petty officer. I got out as a petty officer second class.

SLAWSKY: How many years did you serve in the Navy?

HAMILTON: I spent four years active in the Navy. Four years in the reserves. I guess about 8 years in the reserves.

SLAWSKY: Where did you live after you served in the Navy?

HAMILTON: When my discharge, in Fall River, Mass. I took the train down to New York City. Brooklyn, New York where my brother was living. I had a lot of relatives in Brooklyn. That's where I began living, but knowing I was going 00:44:00back and forth to Brooklyn when a ship was in town. Made a trip to Brooklyn by the ship.

SLAWSKY: Did you go to the Navy yard in Brooklyn?

HAMILTON: Yes. I went to the Navy yard in Brooklyn. I went to the Navy yard after I was discharged in Brooklyn. I had a lot of involvement with the Brooklyn yard. The Navy yard was instrumental. When I got out of the Navy, before – 00:45:00back up a little bit to speak on while I was in the Navy, I was in the shower in the Navy. Taking a shower and I scalded my stomach from here right down.

SLAWSKY: You're pointing from the right side of your face right down your chest.

HAMILTON: Right down to my chest, all the way down to my penis, I got burned. The water turned to steam. It was a Friday afternoon and we were going to New 00:46:00York that day. Went to the sick bay and they took me in and they patched me up and I still wanted to go to New York and it was snowing up there.

SLAWSKY: You were in some pain!

HAMILTON: So much pain! The corpsman that let me leave the ship he almost got in – well, he got in trouble. He didn't get Court Martialed, but he got written up. When I came back to the hospital on the ship – the burn was all over me. I 00:47:00stayed in there for a number of weeks. Laid up there in the ship hospital. I got well and I for some reason or another, during my stay in the Navy, they had those Freon tanks. I used to lift those. Lift those upstairs, downstairs, because we had to get it out. They found out that I had a condition in my chest. It's still there. I couldn't do anything where I went back and forth, back 00:48:00and forth. They found out that I was – they called me disabled by they wouldn't find it 10%. It has to do with their racism. We know that. I'm disabled. In my record, it's disabled, but less than 10%. They didn't say how much less than 10%. So I still have trouble. I went back – I was in 00:49:00Georgia, I was working for MARTA and there were guys finding me less than 10%. I was panting and panting and panting. And still less than 10%. The reason why they do that, they cannot find my record. As you recall, the record was burned up in some place in Chicago where they had the fire back then. They other guys in Georgia said I was less than 10%.

SLAWSKY: So after you were discharged, got an honorable discharge from the Navy…

HAMILTON: Yes.

SLAWSKY: Then you went to live in Brooklyn with your relatives. You must have been in your late 20s by then.

HAMILTON: Yes.

SLAWSKY: Well, I guess mid-20s.

HAMILTON: Mid-20s, yes.

SLAWSKY: What kind of work did you do in Brooklyn?

HAMILTON: Well, I worked several different jobs. I worked for a company called – what's the name – I worked in copper, I can't remember the name. I used to remember, but I can't. I worked with them for a number of years until 00:51:00I decided to go to transit authority. I went to the transit authority in 1960.

SLAWSKY: What kind of work did you do with the transit authority?

HAMILTON: With the transit authority, I started as a conductor on the train.

SLAWSKY: Were you trained as a conductor?

HAMILTON: Conductor. A couple of years I was promoted to [inaudible] train, [inaudible].

SLAWSKY: I was 11 years old in 1960, and I everyday that I went to high school I would take the train. So I was probably on one of your trains.

HAMILTON: It would have depended on which train you took.

SLAWSKY: I took the number 4 and Woodlawn Road train. [Inaudible] Avenue.

HAMILTON: Well, that's the train. I was saying I was on the IRT. I was on that train all the time. The IRT, the number 2, the number 1, and all of those on the IRT train. I transferred as you begin to get a better job. I'm certain you must have rode my train.

SLAWSKY: I used to get on at Fordham Road and then get off at Bedwood Park Boulevard. I went to Bronx High School of Science.

HAMILTON: You would get on at?

SLAWSKY: Well, we lived on [inaudible] Parkway. I used to take the bus. The bus, the train, then take the train over.

HAMILTON: Yes, you have to have ridden my train. Because many times, you could have ridden my train from Pelham. Because I drove the line also. I was a steward…

SLAWSKY: How many years did you work for the transit authority?

HAMILTON: I didn't work enough; I worked about 9 years.

SLAWSKY: And were you active in the union?

HAMILTON: Yes.

SLAWSKY: I remember there was Mike Quinn was the head of the union. I remember John Lindsey was the mayor.

HAMILTON: Yes, I know John Lindsey like I know – I used to meet with John Lindsey because of my political affiliation in Brooklyn. We used to meet and talk with him. Sam Wright. His name was Sam Wright. He was an assemblyman and a lawyer. He got some things done in the Legislature and he is responsible of the Ocean Hill School Board.

SLAWSKY: That's interesting.

HAMILTON: Yes, indeed. I was there. It's no longer there.

SLAWSKY: You were not involved in the teacher's strike in 1968?

HAMILTON: Huh?

SLAWSKY: Were you involved in the 1968 teacher's strike?

HAMILTON: Was I involved? Yes. I was involved. Yes, very, very much so. I 00:55:00don't remember the guy's name. I used to know all of them. I knew all of them. The Superintendent of Schools, he was a Jewish fellow, oh what was his name? I think he's still living. I knew them all. I just can't remember.

SLAWSKY: So did you become active in the union when you were working the trains?

HAMILTON: Yes. I was a steward and that's as far as I got, as a steward. But I attended the meetings and stuff like that.

SLAWSKY: Why did you get involved in the union?

HAMILTON: Why did I get involved? I figured that it was the best thing for everybody. Because it was working for the betterment for people. For people, 00:56:00regardless of the people. Whoever worked for transit and that organization. All of the unions, as you know, in New York, they were more unionized there. That's why I got involved. To think back, you get involved, you really don't know why you get involved. But it was something that I wanted to do and I did it. I did it because I used to drive the work trains and stuff like that. The work train is considered the cream of the crop. Not necessary the cream of the crop where you're going, but the work train is at night. I know they used to 00:57:00do us any kind of work. I was working on the work train when John F. Kennedy was killed. I was on the Flushing line when John F. Kennedy – when we got the news that John F. Kennedy was killed. I was working the work train, the Flushing Avenue. I don't know where it was, I can't recall the street. It was a very sad day. We were working, trying to get the World's Fair. If you remember the World's Fair was there. We were building up the World's Fair and also the Shea Stadium. Why I got involved is that it seemed like it was a natural thing 00:58:00for me to do. I wanted to help people, and I helped people. I helped them politically, being politically associated with different people. I knew all the people that I needed to know.

SLAWSKY: Were you living in Brooklyn this whole time?

HAMILTON: Yes. I lived in Brooklyn. I never lived anywhere but Brooklyn.

SLAWSKY: Where did you live in Brooklyn?

HAMILTON: At first I lived on Pacific. What's the cross street? Ralph Avenue. Then after I got married, we moved on Hopkinson and Atlantic Avenue. There's a building that they built there on Hopkinson and Atlantic Avenue.

SLAWSKY: Now you were married a first time. What was first wife's name?

HAMILTON: Eunice Hamilton.

SLAWSKY: Eunice. And when did you get married to her?

HAMILTON: I don't remember that. It was before Anthony was born.

SLAWSKY: Ok, more than 43 years ago.

HAMILTON: Yes.

SLAWSKY: So Anthony, Bernard, Denise…

HAMILTON: Anthony, Bernard, Michelle is the same mother.

SLAWSKY: Denise and Keena…

HAMILTON: Denise and Keena…Denise is my third wife.

SLAWSKY: You were married to Eunice. Who's Peggy?

HAMILTON: Peggy and then Bernice.

SLAWSKY: Was that in Brooklyn?

HAMILTON: No. We got married – we were dating up there but we got married in South Carolina.

SLAWSKY: What about – where'd you get married to Eunice?

HAMILTON: In Brooklyn.

SLAWSKY: Do you remember when you married Bernice?

HAMILTON: Denise was a little girl. I don't remember.

SLAWSKY: You worked for the New York City Transit Authority for 9 years. That would be until about 1969.

HAMILTON: 8 or 9 years, I don't remember.

SLAWSKY: Where'd you go after that?

HAMILTON: I went to the Borough President's office.

SLAWSKY: You did? Wow.

HAMILTON: Yes, I worked for the Borough President.

SLAWSKY: The Brooklyn Borough President?

HAMILTON: The Brooklyn Borough President.

SLAWSKY: Who was that?

HAMILTON: Abe Beam.

SLAWSKY: Abe Beam, who eventually became mayor.

HAMILTON: Yes. He eventually became mayor.

SLAWSKY: He was mayor when New York City filled bankruptcy. I was a teacher at that time. I was a New York City teacher.

HAMILTON: With Al Shanker?

SLAWSKY: Al Shanker was the head of the teachers' union.

HAMILTON: Yes. Al Shanker asking too much money for the teachers. He had to do what he did. But I knew all of the guys that used to be--

SLAWSKY: So you were involved in Democratic Party politics?

HAMILTON: I was highly involved in Democratic politics.

HAMILTON: I was a liaison for community. Anything that's going on in the particular section of Brooklyn, one of us would go and see about it and come 01:03:00back and report it to him. And he would do something about it. I worked for him a number of years, 2 years. Then I left there and I went to the Manpower Program and I was in charge of the Manpower Program, which would cause people to get aquatinted with different work habits and follow up. We'd follow up their work 01:04:00and keep them in work until – the program was very successful. I don't know about now. During the summertime we gave neighborhood youth corps jobs. One of the people I gave jobs to as a neighborhood youth corps, you wouldn't believe it. Al Sharpton.

SLAWSKY: Really?

HAMILTON: Every summer, I gave him – because he had a few people that was working for him. I would give him so many slots that he would allow these people 01:05:00to come to be employed with the neighborhood youth corps. All of the time that I was involved in the job as a Borough representative and the Manpower, I was also politically involved during the same time. We held many demonstrations on Mayor Lindsey, right there at City Hall. Across the bridge, all of that stuff I really 01:06:00knew. After I left there, I got a job with the Environmental Protection…

SLAWSKY: Was that the Federal Government?

HAMILTON: No, this was a private concern out of California. I joined them. I worked for them about a year. I was always traveling from Atlanta to southern states for…what's the name of the company? Anyway. I went all over the place 01:07:00trying to get contracts for the school through the – I can't remember. I moved from New York to Atlanta for that company.

SLAWSKY: That's why you moved to Atlanta.

HAMILTON: Yes.

SLAWSKY: That must have been about 1972?

HAMILTON: In '72…

SLAWSKY: New York City was about to file bankruptcy when you left…

HAMILTON: Yes.

SLAWSKY: By the way, I was a teacher, in New York City, from '72 to '76. I 01:08:00was a high school math teacher.

HAMILTON: I'm just sorry I can't remember.

SLAWSKY: So you moved to Atlanta with this company.

HAMILTON: I got to Atlanta because I didn't want to go to California. They sent me here to do just from Texas, other places…

SLAWSKY: The southeast?

HAMILTON: Yes, I used to travel down the southeast to let the people know, to engage them in contracts with this company.

SLAWSKY: How long did you do that?

HAMILTON: I did it for 3 years or something. Then I went back to New York. I didn't move my family to New York, but I went back to New York. I went back because of persuasion from other people. Because I was destined to go further in politics and had I stayed there, I would have. When Charlie Hamilton, no relation to mine, he became a Senator. Charlie ran because Major Orange knocked 01:10:00me off of the ballot.

SLAWSKY: I remember Major Orange.

HAMILTON: Yes, he knocked me off of the ballot because I had come to Atlanta, and I got an Atlanta address. So they used that.

SLAWSKY: What were you running for?

HAMILTON: Assemblyman.

SLAWSKY: That was from Brooklyn?

HAMILTON: Yes. So when he knocked me off, we put Charlie Hamilton. He stood in there for a long time. Charlie Hamilton became the Director of – what's the Horse Racing?

SLAWSKY: Off-Track Betting?

HAMILTON: Yes. Off-Track Betting. He died since then. That was the story of my life. That part of my life. A lot of things in between. I moved from Hopkinson to -

SLAWSKY: This is still Brooklyn.

HAMILTON: Brooklyn. What's the road out to Queens? Not Atlantic Avenue. Going out of Lindbergh. Is it Lindbergh?

SLAWSKY: I grew up in the Bronx.

HAMILTON: There's a development over there. I was still involved in 01:12:00everything. While we were involved in Brooklyn and all over Brooklyn, we started the West End [inaudible] Program in Brooklyn. We had warehouses of food and clothes before this became fashionable for when people got burned out and stuff like that. We had all of this stuff put up for them. I just can't think of the – But I was in Brooklyn. I was the Executive Secretary of the highly regarded 01:13:00political club in Brooklyn. We dealt with schools and housing. We got housing for people, the elderly. There was a lot of stuff. I got kids in school, in college, all over Brooklyn. There's a lot to tell about, but I did it, not looking for anything but just doing it. We had applications for college students 01:14:00way back, and got kids in. I'd walk into kids when I'm in New York, I didn't even know that they knew me, because I helped them one day. Now I got involved in MARTA.

SLAWSKY: When did you move back to Atlanta again?

HAMILTON: My family never moved, remember?

SLAWSKY: I though your family stayed in Brooklyn.

HAMILTON: No, family stayed – Bernice and the kids – the two kids – I was 01:15:00married, I got a divorce from Eunice – I came back to Atlanta…

SLAWSKY: So your family was living in Atlanta? Or Brooklyn?

HAMILTON: Which one?

SLAWSKY: Bernice.

HAMILTON: Bernice was living in Brooklyn. But we moved here, to Atlanta. Atlanta was her home and I wanted to come to Atlanta. I don't know why. But I wanted to come to Atlanta. I didn't want to raise my kids in New York. Although they made it alright. They got through it alright. One is here now. My son. My daughter just left, she's in California. My other son is in New Jersey. He's 01:16:00a [inaudible] in New Jersey.

SLAWSKY: That's Anthony?

HAMILTON: No, that is Bernard.

SLAWSKY: And he's a City Councilman?

HAMILTON: City Council. While I was working in New York with Manpower, the second time, with a different Manpower. With the East New York, then my wife was living here.

SLAWSKY: When did you finally move to Atlanta?

HAMILTON: I came in '73, '74, something like that.

SLAWSKY: That was the second time you moved to Atlanta?

HAMILTON: Yes. My second time. I didn't move, really move…

SLAWSKY: Second time you were living in Atlanta.

HAMILTON: Yes, living in Atlanta.

SLAWSKY: So that was '73,'74, what did you do then?

HAMILTON: I gave up the job with Environmental – anyway – I gave that job up. I wasn't working when I first got here. But I was working with Abernathy, who was running for Congressman.

SLAWSKY: Ralph Abernathy.

HAMILTON: Ralph Abernathy, who was running for Congress. We got to the point 01:18:00where we told him I was the closest to him. I woke him up in the morning, was with him at his home when he got home at night. We were very close. We told him to give up the race because it was Lewis to win.

SLAWSKY: Actually Lewis won – Lewis was elected –

HAMILTON: Yes. It was Wyche Fowler. He was a good man. "What is he doing now?"

SLAWSKY: Wyche Fowler was a City Council member before he was a U.S. Senator. Then he became Ambassador to Saudi Arabia.

HAMILTON: US Senator? He became Ambassador to?

SLAWSKY: Saudi Arabia under Clinton. Now he's retired.

HAMILTON: Oh man, gosh. He reminds me of John Lindsey. Lindsey died in Hilton Head.

SLAWSKY: Just a few years ago. He was in a nursing home. Lindsey came from a wealthy family.

HAMILTON: Yes. Oh yes. Where are we now?

SLAWSKY: So you're living in Atlanta, you worked on Abernathy's campaign, 01:20:00and when did you go to work for MARTA?

HAMILTON: In '79.

SLAWSKY: '79. Why did you go to work for MARTA? After all this political stuff you were doing.

HAMILTON: Well, my political activities were in the north. But my political activity also stretched down south. Because Maynard knew about me, Shirley knew about me, and Basil Patterson. Do you know Basil Patterson? He was a Secretary of State. He was a Senator when I knew him. I was working with him closely on 01:21:00political things. He wrote Maynard Jackson.

SLAWSKY: Basil Patterson was New York State's Secretary of State?

HAMILTON: Yes.

SLAWSKY: Right.

HAMILTON: Like I said, I knew him then. I know him now. He wrote to Jackson – Maynard Jackson – he wrote all about me and Jackson called me. He wrote me a letter and he said that he just as soon as he changed to Council, he'd be in touch with me. And I'm a person-- I don't remind you what you need to do. We 01:22:00gave him money and we had a guy.

SLAWSKY: Julie Sugarman?

HAMILTON: Out of New York and he came down here. Well, he did. I never – I've got the letter downstairs right now. Jackson had promised to look into it when he got that City Council straightened out. Then I joined MARTA because I 01:23:00did not know anything about driving a bus. I joined because I was told that they promote from within. They don't do too much hiring. I joined that, I was trying to move into the office. I interviewed with the CEO for the job at one time. The CEO was – I can't remember, he's retired now – you know him, 01:24:00you all know him. I thought I would get that job, but he – his secretary was working with him and then he gave it to her. I applied for another job, which was Director – I believe it was, I'm trying to remember – having to do with labor studies and something. They didn't give it to me because somebody was working in the job and they gave it to him. Told me, 'Don't give up. 01:25:00We'll get to you later.' I put in for several different jobs. When I saw that they were not going to promote me, because of my attitude I guess.

SLAWSKY: But this is after you were working for MARTA? And you were a bus operator?

HAMILTON: Yes. I was a bus operator.

SLAWSKY: How long did you work as a bus operator?

HAMILTON: I worked 25 years.

SLAWSKY: You were a train operator?

HAMILTON: Oh yeah.

SLAWSKY: So you worked as both?

HAMILTON: I was a train operator about 11 years.

SLAWSKY: So you were a bus operator and a train operator?

HAMILTON: Yes. I went to the train and then I finished the train and I became 01:26:00the Union President from that. I just didn't bother with them anymore because I said to them, 'All of you know that I'm here if you want me. You will send for me.' They all knew me. There's guys even today, they're still there. So they thought that I must knew much more than they did, and not at all. I didn't know about the railroad, I told them that. But I could add something to them. It never happened. So I became the Union President.

SLAWSKY: There was a lot in between. You're skipping over a lot of things. How 01:27:00did you get involved in the ATU? The MARTA union?

HAMILTON: TWU?

SLAWSKY: The ATU, here in Atlanta.

HAMILTON: I was always a union member. I joined as soon as I became a bus driver. Although I was looking to go into management, but I always felt that they needed a union. Not that they need a union, but you have to have the union to make people do right. That's what I did. I was always instrumental in bringing up arguments in the union.

SLAWSKY: Were you a Steward with the ATU?

HAMILTON: Yeah.

SLAWSKY: So you were a bus operator Steward? How'd you continue to be active 01:28:00in the union? In the ATU?

HAMILTON: As a bus driver and as a train operator, I was active in the union. Because when things happened on the job, they'd call me and I'd intercede about the situation. I mean, I just got involved. Whatever it was.

SLAWSKY: There was a lot of dissention in the ATU at this time, wasn't there?

HAMILTON: There was dissention in the union…

SLAWSKY: Or controversy…

HAMILTON: Before my time, there was controversy, including JC, when he was President.

SLAWSKY: That was Mr. Reynolds?

HAMILTON: JC Reynolds, yes. There was controversial – there was a controversy when I lost to him, because they -

SLAWSKY: You're skipping over. When did you first run for President of ATU?

HAMILTON: Oh, I can't tell the year I did. I ran 3 times.

SLAWSKY: You ran 3 times. Weren't the elections very close?

HAMILTON: That's what I'm told. It was very close. They thought I won the first time. JC, when he though – the first time and the second time with him 01:30:00he tried to get me to run from Secretary or something like that and leave it alone. He must have thought he would – I told him then, I said, 'I'm going to be true to myself and to the people that I talk with.' I said that I would run for the President and I'm going to run for the President. Sure enough, I lost again.

SLAWSKY: Didn't you lose by one vote at one time?

HAMILTON:[Laughs]

SLAWSKY: It was very, very close.

HAMILTON: Yes. He got to the point that he would – did I run 3 times or 4 01:31:00times? I'm not sure. He realized that he would have to go. He was in with the President, which he should be. The President of the Union…

SLAWSKY: The ATU?

HAMILTON: The ATU. He got the President to name him Vice-President. [Inaudible]. In between, Tommy – that was before – that was the controversial. During 01:32:00this period, it was very controversial.

SLAWSKY: So you were finally elected President. Who served as your Vice-President and Secretary?

HAMILTON: My Vice-President was Benita West and the Secretary was William Swain.

SLAWSKY: Did you run on a ticket together?

HAMILTON: Yes. We ran together.

SLAWSKY: What was your platform when you ran? What did you want to accomplish?

HAMILTON: I don't – you must forgive me – I can't remember. I have it in my papers. We ran with the understanding that we could do better by having a 01:33:00President and a Vice-President and the Secretary speaking from the same table. We did that until the Vice-President listened to some outsiders saying that she could be the President. She ran against me the next time.

SLAWSKY: That's when Danny Divose became Vice-President.

HAMILTON: That's when Danny Divose became Vice…

SLAWSKY: So when you were first elected, there were lots of things you wanted to accomplish in the union. What were some of those things?

HAMILTON: Well, one of the things was that we wanted to first have a pension. 01:34:00You remember the pension? We wanted to make it more equitable for retirees to get more money after they retired. There was some doing to get that.

SLAWSKY: You worked very hard to get that. I was involved in that and that was very difficult.

HAMILTON: That was difficult. Also, we had a lot of…

HAMILTON: Okay. We had the MARTA and the union President – Reynolds at the time – had concocted something to allow Reynolds to retire other than what the 01:35:00contract said.

SLAWSKY: In other words, Reynolds was working for the International Union…

HAMILTON: He was working for the International Union…

SLAWSKY: But was retired from MARTA.

HAMILTON: Retired from MARTA. He was drawing more than he was supposed to draw. We wanted to straighten that out. But we missed it really. Didn't miss that fact that it was straightened out, but Reynolds was – remember when we gave it to the lawyer and he was supposed to copy and they came back and said there was 01:36:00nothing on the tape. But anyway, ever since then, the then Vice-President of MARTA, he was shaky because he went to [inaudible] work with the union over there. Not the union, but the management.

SLAWSKY: Was this when Ken Gregor was the?

HAMILTON: No. Ken Gregor was there. But before Ken.

SLAWSKY: Ken Gregor was General Manager at the time.

HAMILTON: Yeah. But anyway. He went over there and he thought that we were going to come up and bind him and JC all night for what they did. But they got away with that. The International Union – we talked to the union and he didn't want to fire him because he told me that he would fire him if he found out that he did something like that, but he didn't fire him. He made him pay the money back and we got it straight.

SLAWSKY: He eventually, re paid the money to the pension fund.

HAMILTON: Yes. To the pension fund.

SLAWSKY: Wasn't Reynolds killed eventually?

HAMILTON: Reynolds was killed within his church – she was a member of the union.

SLAWSKY: She was MARTA employee.

HAMILTON: MARTA employee, yes. She was a MARTA employee and she killed him.

SLAWSKY: But she killed Reynolds and some other people.

HAMILTON: Her mother.

SLAWSKY: And her mother?

HAMILTON: She killed herself? I don't remember. She died shortly thereafter. Those were bad times. Eventually, I prevailed as the President of the union. There were so many things, over the time that the union wasn't doing. I felt that it should be doing as the union President. But he was just getting along 01:39:00for himself.

SLAWSKY: Do you remember in 2001, there was some major changes in the pension? The benefits were dramatically improved.

HAMILTON: Yes.

SLAWSKY: That was the direct result of changes in the pension fund and the way it was managed.

HAMILTON: This whole thing was changed because before it was – the lawyer who was there, I forget his name…

SLAWSKY: David Rock.

HAMILTON: David Rock and the pension – what's the name?

SLAWSKY: Cody Burgess, and the eventually the board hired an outside administrator.

HAMILTON: We hired and they thought we were doing wrong. But we hired an outside 01:40:00administrator that was separate from MARTA employees. Somebody who could give some attention to the pension fund and the people that were retiring. It's my estimate I think a lot of money just went by the wayside with that arrangement. It's not that there isn't money going by the wayside now, but it's not as it was before. When you had the gentleman that was doing the same thing that Larry Gray is doing now, he got who he wanted to be on the pension board. That 01:41:00kind of stuff. Eventually that was changed.

SLAWSKY: So the investments – the pension fund manager – you hired different attorneys..

HAMILTON: Different attorneys.

SLAWSKY: I was hired and Robert Sundberg.

HAMILTON: Sundberg was hired. I thought it was – I knew it wasn't going to let us have one without the other. But Sundberg seemed to be a good guy. I was 01:42:00surprised that they didn't try to change you. We told them about that they were making a mistake, but they listened evidentially. He wouldn't of been able to keep you off of it, because we're going to have an attorney regardless, because of what happened. So he might of hemmed and hawed, but we were going to eventually get an attorney…

SLAWSKY: And that is now Fort. You were concerned about some of the financial doings of the pension fund.

HAMILTON: Always. I was concerned about that. I just can't remember all of the 01:43:00things that I should have had.

SLAWSKY: I remember many meetings when you and Benita and Bill Swain just walked out.

HAMILTON: Yes. There were meetings that weren't going anywhere. That was with the – before Nat.

SLAWSKY: That was before Nat Ford. In fact, Nat was on the Board for a short time.

HAMILTON: Yes.

SLAWSKY: Vegis Wright was on the Board.

HAMILTON: Yes.

SLAWSKY: Vegis Wright was on the Board.

HAMILTON: There we go.

SLAWSKY: There was nothing getting done. Finally the Board – MARTA management agreed with the union to hire an outside administrator. That's what did it.

HAMILTON: That's what we were trying to do. Claudia was – she's an employee with all the duties. But she got around to it – the pension – 01:44:00whenever she wanted to. There were so many things wrong with that. Eventually – if there was only one thing that I did, it was the pension to be separated from them.

SLAWSKY: From MARTA. Let me mention something else. You negotiated quite the bargaining agreement with MARTA, with Nat Fort, right before September 11, 2001. Tell me about that.

HAMILTON: I negotiated with MARTA and I really didn't know how much money they 01:45:00had. I knew they had some money, but what they had was not now. We bargained, we bargained and we got down to 11 and ¾ percent, if I'm not mistaken. With the back pay, with all of the time that we had lost in negotiation, everything would be paid. That was when Benita started listening to the other people and that we should reject that. MARTA can get – MARTA can do more. Well, I know that the 01:46:00company was not going to go back and negotiate. Especially when they know the governor is not going to do that. She said that we can get more and moved to reject that offer.

SLAWSKY: In the meantime, September 11, 2001 occurred.

HAMILTON: Yes.

SLAWSKY: Sales tax revenues went down.

HAMILTON: Yes. That was the most hurting. I thought that we hurt ourselves by rejecting that contract. Because they would have found some money to continue to pay us. They weren't going to say, no we got no money, no we got no money. 01:47:00They would have paid us. But now, they got all the back money they mustered up by not paying us until the contract is signed. They got all that money. What were we going to lose by then? We had 11 and ½ percent increase and we reject that.

SLAWSKY: You were in the midst of an election at that time as well.

HAMILTON: Yes.

SLAWSKY: In other words, you were up for re-election.

HAMILTON: Yes.

SLAWSKY: In fact, you can in second in the run-off.

HAMILTON: In the run-off.

SLAWSKY: You and Benita were running against each other at that time. That must have been a difficult time period.

HAMILTON: Well, I had – not for me. I've always been this way. You do what 01:48:00you can. As long as you did it honest. I did nothing dishonest. I did everything by board. They said that I stole the money. I knew that wasn't true. That wasn't true. And if they voted out, I'm gone. They voted to keep me.

SLAWSKY: So you won the election against Benita?

HAMILTON: Yes, I won.

SLAWSKY: What happened with the contract eventually?

HAMILTON: The contract? The contract now goes to the governor. We met over that and we had the state people meet over it. We met…

SLAWSKY: Someone to fact find.

HAMILTON: The Fact finders and they came up with this, what it should be, and they allow us to combine the days with holidays and sick time and all of this stuff. We were supposed to have the extra Board people working any kind of way, we didn't do that at all. But they didn't give us any kind of money that we were supposed.

SLAWSKY: In fact, the judge ended up giving you nothing.

HAMILTON: The judge gave a normal increase. We ended up with nothing. Benita – although I tried to help her when this election – this past election – she couldn't do it. She would have done it, if she didn't have some people talking about that contract.

SLAWSKY: Benita was very instrumental with you in changing the pension fund and other things.

HAMILTON: Yes, she was.

SLAWSKY: Now one of the issues that you and Benita worked on was the Midlife Car Rehab. That was a big issue.

HAMILTON: That's a big issue. I forgot about that.

SLAWSKY: The result was the rail yard, over at Lindbergh. The rail yard is because of that.

HAMILTON: It's there right now.

SLAWSKY: The union eventually filed a grievance over that.

HAMILTON: Yes.

SLAWSKY: That was worth a lot of money. That was a lot of money. MARTA was contracting out the rail car rehab work, when they had agreed to give it to the employees.

HAMILTON: Yes, the union, right. A lot of it, as you can see and remember, since I had the stroke, that I forget about. But when you bring things to my attention, then I remember it. We did a lot. I say I did a lot within the 3 years that I served.

SLAWSKY: But you actually served for 9 years…

HAMILTON: 6 years.

SLAWSKY: 6 years. You changed the pension fund, you had that mid-life rehab 01:52:00program and the union really came back to life with grievances and…

HAMILTON: We had grievances, we were getting grievances done. We were getting things done. I hope that they are getting it done now. A lot of people were fired. They were fired for no reason at all, it wasn't justified. But we got them back. Some of them should be fired, I tell you. But because of how the individual managers handled it, we got them back.

SLAWSKY: You think the pension fund issue was very important in your service as President. You were also involved in lots of civil rights activities while you 01:53:00were President.

HAMILTON: Well, yes, I was involved in civil rights and I still am. I think that a union person and a person that cares about the people. I want to make it sure that it's not white people. Because some of them are doing things that are detrimental to their own health and their well-being. But we just think that people should live better in a country that is as wealthy as this country is. I know that other countries are doing worse. But you start here. Then you would 01:54:00spread that abroad. I always attended the NAACP convention. I always extended the labor part of the convention and brought ideas to them. I'm not as active as I once was, but I'm going to get back active, because that's the only thing to do. There's nothing else to do.

SLAWSKY: What do you think of the labor movement compared to – these days now – compared to the way it was when you started out in New York City and elsewhere?

HAMILTON: Well, I will say to it – because of the communication that was 01:55:00lacking between us all over, everywhere, the people find out that they can cause other people to work for you for less in other countries; it is hurting us in America. But not going overseas in the South. The South has always been a bastard for working people. I don't care who it is. Black or white, they have always been bastards. They could have been much more richer than they could have been. Because they didn't want to organize the black people. At the time, 01:56:00there was more blacks in the southern states that was doing menial work. Now they got Mexican people coming to do this work. That question really evolved into a whole other discussion because you can take what happened in the south with the people that they brought in to stymied the advancement of black people and carry that all the way to another story. I think that labor is seeing a 01:57:00very, very hard time. In order to get back where it was – I have my doubt – if they get back to where it once was – it is going to be a hard, hard, road to hoe. Believe me. Being it for black people, white people, brown people, or other nationalities. They are going to use that. I can understand it. They are getting more in America than they would get anywhere else in the world. You can 01:58:00rest assured, you would fight for a hell of a long time before you get change. When we all can enjoy a medium of decent living for everyone.

SLAWSKY: Is that why you were involved in organized labor?

HAMILTON: Well, I guess it was done for that. It wasn't my intention of being involved in organized labor because I did not know what it all entailed in the organized labor. But as I grow older and learn more I realize that organized 01:59:00labor is the salvation for working people. It was not giving the money away. You have some mess ups. You had some people who were stone mess ups. But the majority of people will give you a day's work for a day's pay. Maybe that's why I get involved with labor. I'm not ashamed a minute of it. I loved every moment I spent. I will spend the rest of my days trying to get people to join. As long as there is someone who is trying to do what is right 02:00:00and what is decent for the people. All of the people. We cannot live in this country by being black, and we cannot live by being all white. If things were that, then they should have left us in Africa when we were fighting each other. You bring us to this country and we built this country and then you turn against us. I think it's a shame for you to have people – we all eat and drink and 02:01:00breathe the same things. We happen to be different colors. But it means nothing. There is some black people that I don't want to be no closer that I have to get with. There is some white people that I admire. There is some white folks, and I know that they hate me. I'm just saying, I just want to be as normal as I possibly can with everybody. I would be normal with those guys, black or white – but they don't let me. They have hateful feelings toward other people and hateful feelings toward me. So I stay away from them. That's all I do. I stay away.

SLAWSKY: Well, is there anything else that you think is important and that we should – that you want to say?

HAMILTON: I would say that there is going to be some other things that come up in the meantime, that I just can't remember at all right now. If it's not too much, I would call you and maybe we do a supplement to it. Because I know there's some things that I just don't remember right off.

SLAWSKY: All right.