RACHEL BERNSTEIN: OK. So it's Rachel Bernstein. I'm here with Bill
Holayter. It's Friday November 22nd, 2013. We're in Las Vegas at the end of the retirees' convention. So, uh.WILLIAM HOLAYTER: Almost Kennedy's assassination today.
BERNSTEIN: Yeah. Is it --
HOLAYTER: The time.
BERNSTEIN: The time --
HOLAYTER: Was I think 11:00, wasn't it, 11:00 in Dallas?
BERNSTEIN: That sounds right, yeah, it's this mor -- I know it's this morning.
HOLAYTER: Yeah.
BERNSTEIN: So --
HOLAYTER: Which would be 10:00, I think 10:00 here. As a matter of fact, I
remember I was the assistant steward in the plant I was in. I was on the night shift. So I was having breakfast in the morning when the announcement was made on the radio.BERNSTEIN: Did you have the radio on?
HOLAYTER: Radio, yeah.
00:01:00BERNSTEIN: Yeah. I was on the playground.
HOLAYTER: On the playground.
BERNSTEIN: And it was so weird the way the news spread across.
HOLAYTER: Yeah, yeah.
BERNSTEIN: Yeah.
HOLAYTER: OK.
BERNSTEIN: Uh, so if you don't mind, I want to start with where you were born
and when and just a little bit about where you came from.HOLAYTER: Born in East Chicago, Indiana. As a matter of fact, let me ask you --
you a question. My wife had commissioned a small biography that tells a lot, uh, you know, I'll answer your questions. But I wonder if you'd like to --BERNSTEIN: I --
HOLAYTER: Now that's -- that's the first printing.
BERNSTEIN: My goodness.
HOLAYTER: Where I corrected a lot of the stuff, so -- but you --
BERNSTEIN: Are the corrections in here?
HOLAYTER: Yeah. I, you know, n--
BERNSTEIN: Oh, wonderful.
HOLAYTER: Pages and stuff like that. But --
BERNSTEIN: Uh, I'm so sorry I didn't read it before the interview. But, uh,
it's a really different thing.HOLAYTER: Well, only a few -- only a few copies were made.
BERNSTEIN: OK.
HOLAYTER: For f-- it was for family. And people like, uh, George Kourpias.
00:02:00BERNSTEIN: Got it.
HOLAYTER: And, uh, I don't -- do you know Vic Fingerhut?
BERNSTEIN: Uh-huh.
HOLAYTER: Vic was -- is a very close of friend of mine. But anyway, it's who
-- people who quoted stuff. Anyway --BERNSTEIN: OK, so --
HOLAYTER: East Chicago, Indiana.
BERNSTEIN: So this -- this is a book. And it's -- we're going to skip over
some of the things in it I guess. Uh.HOLAYTER: Yeah.
BERNSTEIN: But, uh, good to kn-- w-- beautiful -- it's a beautiful hardback
book. Uh, I will look at it and pass it on to the archives.HOLAYTER: But that's the -- that's a throwaway copy actually.
BERNSTEIN: OK.
HOLAYTER: Yeah.
BERNSTEIN: Uh.
HOLAYTER: Uh, I mean because, you know, uh, what's -- it was a correcting c-- copy.
BERNSTEIN: Uh, so before we go I'll get you to sign it.
HOLAYTER: OK.
BERNSTEIN: And we're going to put it in the IAM archives.
HOLAYTER: OK.
BERNSTEIN: I'm not going to keep it for myself. Uh.
HOLAYTER: And that's my mom and dad on the back.
BERNSTEIN: Oh wow. OK.
HOLAYTER: Fiftieth wedding anniversary or sixtieth, I forget, uh, anyway. East
Chicago, Indiana.BERNSTEIN: That is wonderful. Chicago.
HOLAYTER: East Chicago.
BERNSTEIN: East Chicago.
00:03:00HOLAYTER: Which if you want me to comment, which at that time was, uh, probably
one of the best union towns along with Butte, Montana in the whole United States. In East Chicago if you were not a registered Democrat and a member of a union you couldn't get a job in East Chicago itself, uh.BERNSTEIN: And w-- you were born in --
HOLAYTER: Nineteen thirty-one.
BERNSTEIN: Nineteen thirty-one.
HOLAYTER: Yeah.
BERNSTEIN: OK. And were -- were your parents union?
HOLAYTER: Oh, my father was, uh, uh, a socialist from Hungary who c-- would tell
you in the book there. He walked. Uh, his father deserted him when he was 11 years old in a little village called Siesta up on the -- was in Transylvania then. But it's still a little piece of Transylvania that remained in Hungary up by the Ukraine border. And at 11 years old he walked from his village where 00:04:00he was deserted to Budapest to become -- and he became an apprentice carpenter. And then at 15 he had enough money and all -- all he had was his journeyman carpenter papers. He walked across -- which was Czechoslovakia then, Slovakia, uh, Germany to Bremerhaven, got -- got a ship. Ellis Island. You know that story. In 1908. Wound up going to his -- found his father. So he stopped to see his father in Johnstown, Pennsylvania. Told him how much he disliked him for doing what he did. And then we wound up in East Chicago because that's where his older brother was. So --BERNSTEIN: So you had family there.
HOLAYTER: Yeah. Family in East Chicago is almost all gone. Uh, death. And I do
00:05:00still have -- I still have a, uh, cousin there.BERNSTEIN: So how long did you live there? You grew up there? When -- when till --
HOLAYTER: Sixteen. Uh, we --
BERNSTEIN: So you went to high s-- through high school.
HOLAYTER: Uh, no, no, started there, started Catholic high school. But then my
folks moved to California in 1946, which was the best move they ever made.BERNSTEIN: Yeah.
HOLAYTER: Yeah.
BERNSTEIN: What -- what drew them there?
HOLAYTER: Pardon me.
BERNSTEIN: What -- what did they go for? What took them to California?
HOLAYTER: To get the hell out of East Chicago, Indiana. It, uh, East Chicago was
at that time and -- and until, uh, uh, the Clean Air Act was the dirtiest city in the United States. Uh.BERNSTEIN: Did they leave because of the air?
HOLAYTER: Air. Yeah.
BERNSTEIN: Really?
HOLAYTER: Yeah.
BERNSTEIN: Yeah.
HOLAYTER: Yeah. Steel mills, oil refineries, and -- and chemical plants. Good
place to work. But you didn't --BERNSTEIN: Bad place to breathe.
HOLAYTER: But you didn't live. Yeah. Well, I've had five bouts of cancer.
BERNSTEIN: Really?
00:06:00HOLAYTER: Yeah. Different places. Doctor says it's from the s-- sm-- smoking
and air I breathed when I was a kid. Yeah. Yeah.BERNSTEIN: Uh.
HOLAYTER: But -- but it was like I say a good place to work. Uh, you know, the
steel mills were --BERNSTEIN: So did he work in steel? In the steel industry?
HOLAYTER: No. My father was a carpenter and millwright.
BERNSTEIN: Oh. Right. He got his carpenter papers when he --
HOLAYTER: Mm-hmm.
BERNSTEIN: -- was very young and kept to it.
HOLAYTER: Anyhow we moved to California.
BERNSTEIN: OK.
HOLAYTER: Uh, Southern California first of all, because my father and mother had
friends there. And they just wanted to get out of East Chicago because, uh, of the environment there. And -- and, uh, then my father was offered a job with, uh, oh, what the hell is the name of that c-- company that makes, uh, uh, uh, the, you know, the, uh, as-- the sh--, uh, sheeting that goes up, uh, you know, you hang, uh, hang f-- hanging floors, uh, hanging ceilings.BERNSTEIN: Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know…
HOLAYTER: Yeah, he was offered a job as a foreman there. S-- he was -- at the
time he was working for Kaiser.BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.
00:07:00HOLAYTER: Uh, he was a foreman on the job that, uh, in a place called Iron
Mountain, uh, down in, uh, uh, past Palm Springs.BERNSTEIN: OK.
HOLAYTER: There's a big, uh.
BERNSTEIN: It's funny. I know an Iron Mountain in Michigan.
HOLAYTER: It's a hill called Iron Mountain.
BERNSTEIN: Oh, actually, I do know. OK.
HOLAYTER: Yeah.
BERNSTEIN: Yeah.
HOLAYTER: He was a foreman on that job. A millwright. And then offered a job up
in San Jose. And that's where we moved to San Jose in '48. And my mom stayed. My father died at 94. My mom stayed in that house until she was 97, sold it, moved here as a matter of fact, because I have two sisters here.BERNSTEIN: Huh.
HOLAYTER: And she lived another seven years. H--, uh, uh, she died at 104.
BERNSTEIN: Huh. Wow.
HOLAYTER: Yeah. Yeah. So anyway.
BERNSTEIN: So you finished high school in California?
HOLAYTER: San Jose.
BERNSTEIN: In San Jose.
HOLAYTER: San Jose High as a matter of fact.
BERNSTEIN: And -- and what did -- what -- do you have any recollection of what
00:08:00you wanted in your life at that --HOLAYTER: Well, I started out to be an apprentice carpenter. My father t--
talked me out of it. And of course then the Korean War came along. And, uh, I didn't want to get drafted in the army, so I joined the navy. Joined the navy in January. Well, I went in in January 8th of 1951 and out in October of '54. Immediately went to work as a journeyman machinist and --BERNSTEIN: So wait. So when you were in the navy you g-- probably got a lot of --
HOLAYTER: Training.
BERNSTEIN: On-the-job training.
HOLAYTER: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I should have, uh, matter of fact, I was in the sh
-- in the sheet metal shop. And because of that sheet metal, third-class sheet metal man, but I also flew crew, flew nose -- nose gunner in a P2V squadron at the end. Before that I was at Alameda. A master-at-arms and -- and, uh, and then I went to, uh, th-- this P2V squadron, which -- antisubmarine squadron, uh, what 00:09:00it is.BERNSTEIN: Ah. OK.
HOLAYTER: F-- flew missions over Korea. They, uh, they -- they -- they -- the --
the squadron, uh, was called the Candlelight Squadron because we would fly out of Okinawa and drop incendiary bombs on the targets. Then B-29s would come in and drop the bombs where they saw the lights.BERNSTEIN: Oh. No kidding. OK. Huh.
HOLAYTER: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, w--
BERNSTEIN: So you were lighting the way.
HOLAYTER: Yeah.
BERNSTEIN: Yeah.
HOLAYTER: We lit the targets is what we did.
BERNSTEIN: Yeah. Huh.
HOLAYTER: Because we could fly low and slow. Yeah. Lost three, uh, lost three,
Uh, out of our 12-plane squadron. But anyway, then we went -- then we went up to Alaska. Kodiak for almost a year.BERNSTEIN: S-- still in the navy.
HOLAYTER: Yeah. Oh yeah. Still in a P2V squadron. We -- looking for Russian submarines.
BERNSTEIN: Right. Right. OK.
HOLAYTER: Found a lot of them under the s-- polar cap. Is what we were looking
00:10:00for them, under the -- under the ice. And they were there. So was ours.BERNSTEIN: Yeah.
HOLAYTER: Nev-- they luckily didn't run into each other too much.
BERNSTEIN: Right.
HOLAYTER: Yeah. But anyway, that's, uh, uh, uh, but -- but I had a union, uh,
background through my father who was strong, strong union. I mean you couldn't find a stronger union person than him. Uh. Uh.BERNSTEIN: So you were taught not to cross a picket line from a very early age.
HOLAYTER: Oh absolu -- are you kidding? That -- that was mortal sin. Uh, and --
and we -- we -- we -- we would talk. Or, uh, uh, uh, when my mom and dad wanted the kids, my two older sister and myself to tell them what we did during the day, how was school, what happened, you know, w-- at dinner. We, uh, dinner was a social event as -- as well as an eating event. And always embedded in that is the -- the fact that what we have now is because of the union. The -- the fact that we're able to have food on the table and -- and clothes and all that was 00:11:00always embedded in us.BERNSTEIN: Really. Yeah.
HOLAYTER: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway.
BERNSTEIN: That -- it's -- it's a strong lesson.
HOLAYTER: Yeah. Uh, that's -- yeah. We've lost some of that I think, uh, yeah.
BERNSTEIN: Uh, we've lost a lot of that.
HOLAYTER: Yeah. Yeah.
BERNSTEIN: Unfortunately.
HOLAYTER: Yeah.
BERNSTEIN: But certainly --
HOLAYTER: Yeah. My dad used to say -- matter of fact, uh, uh, he used to go over
to the house. Uh, s – s -- Sunday afternoon dinner was a, uh, was a deal even when my grandmother and grandfather were alive in East Chicago. And then they finally moved to California too. But my -- I was -- went over there one morning and I'm com -- complaining to my father. You know, I lived in, you know, San Jose, was working in San Jose, I said, "Goddamn, the taxes are just killing us. Can't -- I can't afford these taxes anymore." My father says, "Listen, Billy." He called me Billy. "I remember the day I never paid any 00:12:00taxes. I didn't have anything either. I pay taxes now and I have something." Anyway.BERNSTEIN: That's a --
HOLAYTER: Yeah. Yeah. He was --
BERNSTEIN: -- very decent way to look at it.
HOLAYTER: He was a good -- he was a good lesson person. Uh, you know, good --
good teacher, uh.BERNSTEIN: So you get out of the navy and had --
HOLAYTER: Yeah, got out of the navy in -- in, uh, October of, uh, '54. Went to
work for a company called Hiller Helicopters.BERNSTEIN: OK.
HOLAYTER: In East Palo Alto, Stanley Hiller, who originated on Long Island but
moved to California, developed a helicopter that, uh, uh, he developed the ram -- what's called the ramjet engine, which went on the ends, uh, of the rotors to give it more power.BERNSTEIN: Ah. Huh. OK.
HOLAYTER: And I worked there for almost three years. Uh, t –- t --
00:13:00BERNSTEIN: What -- what kind of work?
HOLAYTER: Uh, I was a certified aircraft welder. That's one of them jobs where
you had to stamp every weld you made because if something went wrong --BERNSTEIN: They needed to trace it.
HOLAYTER: You -- you -- you -- you were responsible for it. Of course we tested
every weld we did too. And we were working with exotic metals at that time. Inconel and Inconel X and that kind of stuff that had never been heard of before.BERNSTEIN: I don't know what those are actually.
HOLAYTER: Yeah. Exotic metals.
BERNSTEIN: OK.
HOLAYTER: That's what we used for the, uh, for the blades and the little
ramjets, yeah. Uh, became a shop steward there after a year.BERNSTEIN: Do you remember when you first heard about the union on your job?
HOLAYTER: Oh, I w --, uh, uh, I joined the union right away. Of course like a
good union place, the shop steward came around and said, "You know, this is a union shop." I said, "I know it's a union shop. That's why I'm working here." And I joined the union right away naturally and became active in the 00:14:00union right away.BERNSTEIN: Started going to meetings and --
HOLAYTER: Oh yeah. Yeah. In them days we didn't have -- as a matter of fact it
was negotiated into a contract later. But in them days we didn't have the, uh, checkoff for union dues.BERNSTEIN: Uh-huh.
HOLAYTER: So to pay your union dues you went down the union office.
BERNSTEIN: With your book.
HOLAYTER: With your book and your f -- your $5.
BERNSTEIN: Money. Yeah.
HOLAYTER: Yeah. Yeah, $5 dues.
BERNSTEIN: Do you still have your first book?
HOLAYTER: You know, it is probably someplace. But in all the moves I've made
and everything -- I could probably find it, because that is something I d-- would -- would have saved then.BERNSTEIN: Yeah. Yeah.
HOLAYTER: Yeah. Yeah. But I don't know where it is. Yeah. (coughs)
BERNSTEIN: So you got active. Uh, were there political issues at -- in that?
HOLAYTER: Oh always. I mean, uh, I became immediately p-- uh, you know, uh,
involved in the -- in politics. And m-- my mom and dad were involved in politics. If you read that s -- read that book you'll see. It's the f-- one 00:15:00of the funniest stories. You know, I regress. Is, uh, in 1972 my father hated, uh, Nixon. I mean absolutely hated him. Thought he was the worst person in the world. And it was -- a lot of it was because he really liked Helen Gahagan Douglas.BERNSTEIN: Uh-huh.
HOLAYTER: Remember her -- remember th --
BERNSTEIN: I do. And I w –- w -- yes.
HOLAYTER: And for Nixon to, uh, name her a communist, which was in that
election, what the heck year was that f -- uh, forty f -- fifty, forty-eight, I forget. But anyway --BERNSTEIN: I'm not sure. Yeah, right. Right in there.
HOLAYTER: When -- when Nixon was -- when Nixon beat her. Uh, but anyway in 1972
when Nixon was running for reelection -- and incidentally we'll get along into that, uh, uh, after the executive council meeting in, uh, in Florida when we 00:16:00knew that the AFL-CIO was not going to endorse McGovern. Red Smith, who was president at the time, instructed me to try to form a labor for McGovern committee, which I did, incidentally. But my -- my mother was the precinct, uh, captain, uh, Democratic precinct captain. But also had the voting at our house.BERNSTEIN: Oh, no kidding.
HOLAYTER: We would clear the furniture out of the living room and set up the
booths in the -- in the living room. In -- in -- in San Jose. And, uh, conduct the voting. She was not only the precinct captain for the Democratic Party, she was also the election precinct person.BERNSTEIN: Right.
HOLAYTER: My father stood out in the -- we -- we had a, uh, a driveway and then
a walkway that went up to the front door. My -- my father would stand, uh, stand in the sidewalk. And he'd ask people. This started six o'clock in the 00:17:00morning. Ask people, "How you going to vote?" And if they told him, "You couldn't -- I'm not going to tell you," or they said they're going to vote for Nixon, he said, "You can't come in my house." This is a true story. My -- my mother had to finally call the police.BERNSTEIN: On your father?
HOLAYTER: On my father.
BERNSTEIN: Because he wouldn't stop doing that.
HOLAYTER: Because he would not stop.
BERNSTEIN: Because he hated Nixon so much.
HOLAYTER: She'd come out and ask him. Other people, uh, working. "This is,
ah, my house," he said. "If they're going to vote for Nixon, I'm not going to let them in my house." That's how strong my father was on -- on that kind of stuff. Anyway.BERNSTEIN: So the second you got into the union, you were involved in political --
HOLAYTER: Absolutely.
BERNSTEIN: -- issues.
HOLAYTER: Yeah.
BERNSTEIN: Yeah.
HOLAYTER: Yeah. And then you'll see later on very strong in -- in -- in San
Jose when I became a business agent in, uh, in the '60s I was given the job of 00:18:00being the political person for our district. So where are we?BERNSTEIN: Uh, you -- you just joined the union and you're almost a shop
steward and I -- I asked you if there was anything political and you said, "Of course, how could there not be?"HOLAYTER: Yeah. That's, uh.
BERNSTEIN: But do you recall some particular, uh.
HOLAYTER: Well, just in general. But the big one was, uh.
BERNSTEIN: Effort that you -- that you were involved in. And -- and were there --
HOLAYTER: Yeah. I -- I didn't --
BERNSTEIN: -- disagreements within the --
HOLAYTER: Pardon me.
BERNSTEIN: And were there disagreements in the local?
HOLAYTER: Uh, not until I came back. Uh, I left in 1957. Uh, I thought
California where I lived was getting too crowded with people in 1957. So I moved to Idaho and started, uh, working, uh, with the sheet metal workers' union. 00:19:00And it was good work until 19 -- late 1959, uh, there. I worked out at the atomic energy center some, uh, at Arco. And I also worked -- that's when they were setting up the potato, uh, uh, plants.BERNSTEIN: Oh. OK.
HOLAYTER: That made the dehydrated potato plants and --
BERNSTEIN: Right.
HOLAYTER: We had a lot of good work, a lot of conveyor work, duct work, and that
kind of stuff. And that l-- uh, I moved to Idaho because my first wife's, uh, people were in, uh, in the Salt Lake City area. My first wife is Mormon and she had three uncles that lived, uh, on the Lost River, uh, in -- in, uh, Idaho. Great fishing.BERNSTEIN: Yeah.
HOLAYTER: So I thought well, I'm going to go hunting and fishing for a while.
Which I did. Uh, but -- but also worked in politics then, uh, uh. 00:20:00BERNSTEIN: So you worked -- you worked as a sheet metal worker and w-- worked
for the union? Or you were a full-time union --HOLAYTER: No, no, I just worked, uh, uh, at that time, the three years from 19
-- 1957, '58 and '59 into '60 I came back to California in -- in, uh, June of 1960. I was offered a job by Westinghouse to come and work there. And that's, uh, that's when I really became active. Shop steward and b-- I -- I came back, went to work in Jan--, uh, in July. They asked me to be the steward in January when the elections were held. I became a steward. This would be s--, uh, January '61. In '63 I became the assistant chief steward. That n-- necessitated me going onto the swing shift. The setup we had with Westinghouse, which was really a pretty damn good setup. Westinghouse paid the s-- the chief 00:21:00steward to do nothing except solve problems.BERNSTEIN: You --
HOLAYTER: But I was the assistant s -- which meant I had to go onto the swing
shift. Which when you're elected assistant steward, Westinghouse would let you transfer onto the s-- swing shift. So I went on the swing shift. But I had to work the job, unless there was some problem. So my duties were the swing shift and the graveyard shift. So after the swing shift was over with I'd stick around with the graveyard people.BERNSTEIN: And talk to people.
HOLAYTER: Talk to the graveyard people. Then go home. Actually go to the bar and
have a couple drinks and go home. And go to bed. Get up the next day. Then in '65 I believe, '65, '66, too far back, I was elected chief steward. So I go back on day shift. And that -- that's a full-time job at that time.BERNSTEIN: That's a full-time union, it's not a st --
HOLAYTER: Yeah.
00:22:00BERNSTEIN: Union staff but it's paid by Westinghouse to union --
HOLAYTER: Paid by Westinghouse but f-- we had our own office on -- on the
premises. And it's pr--BERNSTEIN: That's a -- that is a good arrangement.
HOLAYTER: Yeah. Yeah. It was designed after some of the UAW contracts actually.
Yeah. And as far as I know it might have been the only Westinghouse place where they had that, where Westinghouse paid the steward full-time. Paid the steward not to work.BERNSTEIN: Right. Right.
HOLAYTER: Yeah. Yeah.
BERNSTEIN: To solve -- and there are always problems so --
HOLAYTER: Actually in talking to the, uh, uh, uh, uh, was a personnel director
at that time which w -- what do they call them now human, uh, uh, uh.BERNSTEIN: Human HR. Human resources. Yeah.
HOLAYTER: Human. Yeah. Yeah. Resources. Personnel director and I got to know
each other pretty well because actually we'd solve a lot of problems before it ever -- ever got to his level. And that was one of their philosophies. If we can get these problems solved on the shop floor it was worth paying this guy to do 00:23:00it, you know, uh.BERNSTEIN: So tell me some of the problems you solved.
HOLAYTER: Oh geez. You know, f -- the age-old stuff. You know, foreman picking
on people. Uh, you know, theft problems. Uh, you know, people getting fired over -- over, you know, not paying attention to orders. You know, that kind of stuff. Absenteeism.BERNSTEIN: Did you help people with, uh, substance issues?
HOLAYTER: We didn't have that problem in them days. We had some alcohol
problems w -- but we didn't have drug problems. Some, you know, some people smoked marijuana but never -- never had any of the hard stuff.BERNSTEIN: Hmm.
HOLAYTER: Yeah. That was in the -- in the '60s and it wasn't, uh, so
prevalent at that time.BERNSTEIN: And were there any women in your --
00:24:00HOLAYTER: Oh yeah. Yeah. We had a few women. And matter of fact, that was one of
the problems we'd run into every once in a while. Some -- some guy would, you know, use bad language around the women and they'd complain to the foreman. The foreman would get on them about using bad language. Yeah. What the hell? You're working in a shop, you know. Yeah. But we, uh, uh, uh, you -- you were like -- you were almost like a priest. It was a fun job really.BERNSTEIN: Yeah.
HOLAYTER: Yeah.
BERNSTEIN: D -- was it a full -- did it keep you really busy?
HOLAYTER: And -- and -- pardon me.
BERNSTEIN: Did it keep you really busy?
HOLAYTER: No. Not too much. Uh, not too much with really serious stuff. Uh, uh,
you'd get into something really serious every once in a while. I think we only had three arbitrations all the time I was, uh, was the chief steward there.BERNSTEIN: So you all really figured out how to --
HOLAYTER: Because we were able to -- able to solve things before that. And, uh,
there was one, uh, that I as a matter of fact, I mentioned that in the book. There was one that I absolutely refused to even represent. And the guy could 00:25:00have probably filed with the labor board. But he -- he stole tools from other people there on the floor. Micrometers, this kind of stuff.BERNSTEIN: Oh.
HOLAYTER: And he got caught. Uh, I refused to represent him because I said,
"You know, if you stole from the company I'd represent you. But you steal from your fellow worker. I ain't going to represent you." And so he got fired and -- and -- and away. But, uh, we -- we've had cases where they -- you know, guy would steal. And if he was guilty, what are you going to do? You know, you represent him, but, uh, still --BERNSTEIN: But you still y-- you still expect him to --
HOLAYTER: Yeah. You can't -- you can't --
BERNSTEIN: -- face the consequences.
HOLAYTER: Yeah. You know, you -- you commit a crime, you know, but anyway, had a
good time. Then in -- in nine, uh, as a matter of fact I became, uh, very active politically within the dist-- was District 93, which no longer exists, uh, in 00:26:00San Jose. Then in, uh, January of '67 I was appointed business agent. And at that time I -- because I was politically active the, uh, part of my duties in addition to having 50 shops, I went out of Westinghouse, but I had 50 small shops, largest one was --BERNSTEIN: Oh.
HOLAYTER: Uh, uh, a Continental Can shop. It had 110 employees. That was the
largest shop I had. And, uh, as small as three employees in a shop.BERNSTEIN: Fifty is a lot to keep track of.
HOLAYTER: Oh, I made it a point to visit every shop at least twice a month. Go
through the shop. How's things going? Because they didn't -- the -- the --BERNSTEIN: Huh.
HOLAYTER: The only shop that had a shop steward was that Continental Can shop.
The other one didn't have a shop steward.BERNSTEIN: They just --
HOLAYTER: So actually I became their shop steward as well as their business
agent. And, uh, I also had the responsibility for politics, uh, uh, at that 00:27:00time, '67, '68. I'm sorry, '68, '69. And in '69 I was asked to go back to Washington, DC. That's in -- in, uh, so I --BERNSTEIN: So wait. Don't jump ahead. So let's stick to the '60s for a few
more minutes.HOLAYTER: OK. Sure.
BERNSTEIN: When you're in San Jose. Were you involved in citywide --
HOLAYTER: Uh.
BERNSTEIN: -- political organizations?
HOLAYTER: I was -- I was so involved that in, uh.
BERNSTEIN: Do you --
HOLAYTER: And our district was. I had a very good, uh, good boss. Uh, our, uh,
central labor council, uh, we were very very liberal. We were w -- our central labor council just as an example and the Contra Costa Labor Council, which was represented by a guy by the name of Art Carter, who -- who was a -- a good friend and also was appointed by Governor Brown, uh, to, uh, to -- as the labor 00:28:00commissioner I believe. But anyway we were the only two labor councils in the United States that would pass a resolution against the Vietnam War.BERNSTEIN: And this was in --
HOLAYTER: Sixty-eight. Yeah. And we would always send that resolution to
national AFL-CIO --BERNSTEIN: And -- and did the members of your local and your district -- were
you pretty close -- really supported it?HOLAYTER: The b -- the -- my boss -- my boss supported Meany on the Vietnam War.
BERNSTEIN: Really.
HOLAYTER: But our membership was against the Vietnam War. Yeah.
BERNSTEIN: I always thought that there would have been more contention.
HOLAYTER: The --
BERNSTEIN: Within.
HOLAYTER: S-- Santa Clara County had -- the -- the workers there were pretty,
uh, pretty l-- pretty union-minded, pretty liberal. Uh, which -- which, uh, uh, I think it attested to the -- the -- the central labor council and what they did. They did -- did a lot of good things. Uh, you know, had f-- had fundraisers 00:29:00for, uh, people in need. You know, and all -- all this kind of good stuff. Uh, there was a good -- good union movement in -- in Santa Clara County. I don't know what it's like now but in them days it was --BERNSTEIN: It was active on many different fronts and --
HOLAYTER: Uh, uh, uh, active, uh, community services and all that, yeah. But
anyway, in 1968 the, uh, I'm the business agent. And the day that, uh, Lyndon Johnson announced -- this was in March something that he was not going to run for reelection. My boss Jimmy LeBlanc said, uh, "Bill," he says, "try to find a storefront office downtown. We'll open a Humphrey for headquarters office." So I took money out of petty cash, found a -- found a storefront that 00:30:00was vacant, uh, right on, uh, Santa Clara and Seventh Street. And, uh, we rented it. It became the Humphrey for president headquarters through the whole election. Machinists paid for it. In them days you could get away with that kind of stuff.BERNSTEIN: Right. Right. It wasn't until --
HOLAYTER: Uh, and, uh, there was a guy by the name of Alan Parker, which if he
-- if he's still alive you ought to -- but he's not a union guy. He's a lawyer. But if he's still alive you ought to talk to him.BERNSTEIN: Yeah.
HOLAYTER: Alan Parker was the chair of the Democratic Party in Santa Clara
County. And of course Alan Parker, come on, Alan. Here -- here's the office for free, you know, so that became the Humphrey for president. Uh, uh, plus other Democrats. And I and Alan Parker, because I was paying the bill -- I say I. Our -- our district was paying the bill.BERNSTEIN: Your l-- district, right.
00:31:00HOLAYTER: Uh, actually became almost like the cochairman of the Humphrey for
president h--, uh, h--, uh, uh, in Santa Clara County. Alan Parker came to Washington, DC a couple years after I did. And he became Peter Rodino's chief of staff on the Judiciary Committee. Alan Parker was the chief of staff when they did the Nixon impeachment.BERNSTEIN: No kidding.
HOLAYTER: Yeah. My friend Alan Parker. After Rodino lost, uh, I forget what year
it was, but then Alan Parker became the, uh, executive director of the Trial Lawyers Association.BERNSTEIN: Hmm.
HOLAYTER: And then I lost track of Alan Parker. Uh, in 1968 and, uh, you can
check this. The, you know, the -- the numbers are not exact. But in 1960 Nixon beat, uh, Kennedy by -- in the 10,000-vote area in Santa Clara County, 1962, 00:32:00Nixon beat Pat Brown by about the same amount in Santa Clara County, in 1968, we turned it around and Humphrey won Santa Clara County.BERNSTEIN: No kidding.
HOLAYTER: By about that number of votes. Yeah. And that was --
BERNSTEIN: Did you all knock on doors and phone bank and rally?
HOLAYTER: Oh, we studied every precinct in the county? I mean this was before
the days where everything was computerized.BERNSTEIN: I know. Yeah. So tell me a little bit about the operation.
HOLAYTER: Uh, but -- but I know there's a guy -- there was a guy by the name
of Scammon. You know, I can't remember his first name. Big heavyset guy. He's the guy who developed the -- the -- the precinct analysis program. But you analyzed every precinct and you put them into three categories, one, two, three, A, B, C, whatever you want to call it. Strong Democratic precinct, middle precinct, strong Republican precinct. So you -- you work -- you worked on the -- the number one to try to increase the vote, try to increase the g--, you know, 00:33:00the --BERNSTEIN: Get out the vote.
HOLAYTER: Get out the vote.
BERNSTEIN: Get people to the polls.
HOLAYTER: And then if you had time you worked on these. If you had time and people.
BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.
HOLAYTER: These you tried to not pay any attention to at all. I mean you just
forgot all about them.BERNSTEIN: Strong Republican. Yeah.
HOLAYTER: So our get out the vote effort is what really paid off in the '68
election. Plus we had a lot of students. I -- I --BERNSTEIN: Did you work together with them?
HOLAYTER: Oh, I was, uh, I -- I had just quit college because I couldn't do
college anymore.BERNSTEIN: S --
HOLAYTER: I was a, uh, uh, political science, uh, history and political science.
BERNSTEIN: At San Jose?
HOLAYTER: Uh, no, it was West Valley Junior College.
BERNSTEIN: OK.
HOLAYTER: Uh, I -- I h -- I had quit college because of my time. But I, uh, knew
the professors and everything. Uh, I'd get them to send kids over to -- they want to work in a campaign? Send them over to our -- our place.BERNSTEIN: Political science experience.
HOLAYTER: Which they did. Yeah. So, you know, we were able to work all the
number one precincts hard, hard, hard. Door to door. You know, and then, uh, 00:34:00naturally on Election Day the -- the get out the vote effort was -- was tremendous. And we -- we turned Santa Clara County around. Yeah.BERNSTEIN: The machinists and the students.
HOLAYTER: Yeah. A lot of students. Yeah.
BERNSTEIN: Yeah.
HOLAYTER: A lot of s-- well, and, you know, Democratic activists.
BERNSTEIN: Uh, yeah, other people too.
HOLAYTER: Yeah.
BERNSTEIN: But yeah. That's great.
HOLAYTER: Yeah. And then, uh, as a result of that, uh, uh, y -- that -- that
effort -- that effort that I put into that -- and I say I. You know, uh, boy, I never saw my wife hardly at all. And the kids. Because I was working all the time, uh, during that election period. And, you know, that election period didn't start on Labor Day. It started the day we opened that Humphrey for headquarters office. Uh, anyway, others in the union. I remember Al Sheen and our general vice president at that time was, uh, oh, why can't I think of his 00:35:00name? Anyhow, they -- they wanted to hire, uh, an assistant, uh, direct of our political department in DC. And, uh, I was recommended. And I was asked if I wanted to go back. As a matter of fact George Kourpias was the one who --BERNSTEIN: Oh yeah?
HOLAYTER: -- contacted me at that time. He -- he was one of the assistants to
the president. And I met George in, uh, for the first time in, uh, uh, late October, early November at a, uh, at a District 141 convention where he asked me to go and speak to them. Now I'm still a business agent in District 93. He asked me to do this to see how I'd handle myself and everything. So I went and spoke and -- and, uh, I, you know, told them I was being considered for this job. And Kourpias was there. And after that he says, "Well," he says, "I want you to come back to Washington, DC next week," which I did. And I was, 00:36:00uh, interviewed by, uh, Vernon Jerakoac, who's now dead, and Red Smith, who was the president at the time. And they offered me the job. And it was in November. And they said, "Can you be here December 1 to go on the job?" And I said, "Sure." I was in the process of a divorce anyway. So --BERNSTEIN: I was just going to say, "What about your family?"
HOLAYTER: Yeah, I was in the process of a divorce.
BERNSTEIN: Yeah.
HOLAYTER: My oldest daughter, who was not my -- my blood daughter, but I raised
her, she was out. She was married. The biggest disappointment was m -- was my youngest daughter, who was very very dear to me. Uh, but she did come and live with me for a while in 1972. She's now dead.BERNSTEIN: Oh.
HOLAYTER: Of ovarian cancer, which they didn't find in time.
BERNSTEIN: They hardly ever do, uh.
HOLAYTER: Yeah, 53. Yeah.
00:37:00BERNSTEIN: My closest friend, my coauthor of my book was same exact thing.
HOLAYTER: Yeah.
BERNSTEIN: A few years younger.
HOLAYTER: We're talking about that. You know, I've had five bouts of cancer.
And I keep saying to myself the billions and billions of dollars we've spent on cancer research and we still don't know what the hell we're doing. We're making little gains here and there. But --BERNSTEIN: Yeah.
HOLAYTER: We have not solved the problem. We have not solved the stopping it in
the first place. Yeah. And that's where it is.BERNSTEIN: Yeah. Yeah.
HOLAYTER: Stopping it in the first place.
BERNSTEIN: Uh, absolutely right.
HOLAYTER: Yeah.
BERNSTEIN: Yeah.
HOLAYTER: Anyway.
BERNSTEIN: Huh. OK. So you're --
HOLAYTER: Uh.
BERNSTEIN: He says, "Move to Washington." In a few weeks. And that works for you.
HOLAYTER: Yeah, it did as a matter of fact, I packed up all my stuff in a couple
of suitcases and a big box, flew back to Washington, DC.BERNSTEIN: Can I just ask? Was -- was the nonstop work a contributing factor to
the breakup of your marriage? The campaign and the work. 00:38:00HOLAYTER: Yeah. That plus my -- my own stupidity. Yeah. Work and fooling around.
It was there. You know, it was easy. Uh, young guy, you know. S -- yeah. My own -- my own -- my own fault.BERNSTEIN: OK. Uh.
HOLAYTER: Yeah. Yeah.
BERNSTEIN: Always wonder when people work --
HOLAYTER: Yeah.
BERNSTEIN: -- all the time how they manage.
HOLAYTER: Uh, uh, uh, in politics it's so prevalent. Uh, even the -- even the
ones that know they shouldn't do it like the Clintons. Yeah. There it is. You know, the -- I -- the -- so many of these guys in Congress --BERNSTEIN: Yeah.
HOLAYTER: -- get caught fooling, uh, uh, they don't get caught but they're
fooling around with somebody in the office or s -- I mean it's so prevalent.BERNSTEIN: Yeah.
HOLAYTER: That, uh, uh, uh, you know, that sex is -- is -- is a crazy thing.
And, uh.BERNSTEIN: Right. Like it's so closely linked to power.
HOLAYTER: Yeah.
BERNSTEIN: Which is part of the political --
HOLAYTER: Uh, yeah.
BERNSTEIN: -- scene.
HOLAYTER: Uh, it's -- it's a, uh, I don't know. But it's like a disease almost.
00:39:00BERNSTEIN: It's a powerful force that we can say for sure.
HOLAYTER: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, but anyway --
BERNSTEIN: So you moved to Washington.
HOLAYTER: Yeah. And, uh, you know, started right out. Started right out
traveling a lot and -- and analyzing. Had a very good guy by the name of, uh, Don Ellinger, who actually -- Don -- excuse me -- was one of the most brilliant guys I ever met, had a mind like a -- like a trap. Don came to Washington. Don -- Don was a, uh, a representative for the, uh, garment workers' union in -- in, uh, in Missouri, went to Texas during the, uh, Kennedy campaign, was brought to Washington, DC by Bobby Kennedy in the Justice Department. And then, uh, uh, and I can't think of his name. You -- you'll be able to get it in your archives. The first, uh, director of the, uh, political department of the 00:40:00machinists' union. I can't think of his name.BERNSTEIN: OK.
HOLAYTER: He was, uh, uh, he was Estes Kefauver's, uh, uh, staff person or, uh.
BERNSTEIN: Oh, no kidding.
HOLAYTER: Or, uh, his executive assistant. Some -- some --
BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.
HOLAYTER: But he was hired by Roy Siemiller to be the first political director
of the machinists' union.BERNSTEIN: And who -- who -- who was the political director when you first came?
HOLAYTER: Don Ellinger.
BERNSTEIN: OK. Got it.
HOLAYTER: This guy died at age 55 of a heart attack. Don Ellinger died at age 55
of a heart attack. When I became 55 I said, "Shit, man, I got to get through this year." Which I did.BERNSTEIN: You were by then the political director and you were worried.
HOLAYTER: Yeah. Because Don had died at f--, uh, in, uh, nineteen se-- February
'72. And that's when I became the political director, yeah.BERNSTEIN: Oh my goodness. So '68 to '72 you were the assistant political
director and --HOLAYTER: December 1 of '69.
BERNSTEIN: Oh, '69. OK.
00:41:00HOLAYTER: To February of '72. Don died on February 12th, I believe it was.
Massive heart attack, uh, walking down the stairs as it -- as -- at his home to answer the phone. Just collapsed and died right there on the spot.BERNSTEIN: Mm.
HOLAYTER: Yeah.
BERNSTEIN: So tell me about when you first -- those first -- first year or two
when you arrive in Washington. You've said you were traveling a lot. What --HOLAYTER: Trav-- tr-- really fun job because it -- I've said several times,
"Jesus, if I had the money, I'd pay to do this, rather than them paying me." I mean it was a fun job. I was out there with the membership. Uh, trying to motivate them to get politically involved. And also studying. Uh, af-- after a while I was known as -- I -- I knew every congressional district in the country. You know, the -- the demographics of it and -- and everything. So just studying with it. And --BERNSTEIN: And so did that mean that -- that wherever you went you could tell
00:42:00people the details of --HOLAYTER: Oh, I -- I -- I knew what the deal was in their congressional district
and -- and state h-- yeah.BERNSTEIN: Because one of the things about political, uh, campaigning that
I've noticed in -- in organizations is people go out to -- to mobilize the members. But the level of information that the members get is pretty shallow.HOLAYTER: Yeah.
BERNSTEIN: And -- and that's a huge problem. Uh, you know, motivation is
incredible. And being on the right side is incredible. But --HOLAYTER: Well, you --
BERNSTEIN: Having the knowledge is also --
HOLAYTER: Uh, just to give you an example, uh.
BERNSTEIN: -- critical.
HOLAYTER: I started something after I became the director. You know, we had --
we had limited resources naturally. Uh, at that time we didn't even, uh, you know, didn't have the checkoff for, uh, contributions, weren't, you know, weren't raising a whole lot of money. And, uh, but I would s-- I -- I made it a point to sit down with the executive council of every one of our machinist state councils. And, uh, you know, I h -- I h --, uh, really had two theories in 00:43:00it. One of the theories was making them feel part of making decisions. And -- and the other theory was, you know, teaching them that, you know, we have limited resources, we can only put the money in where it's going to do the, you know, do the most good. And of course in them days we had -- we had, uh, we had about -- ah, two to three times more what you call marginal congressional districts than we have now.BERNSTEIN: Right.
HOLAYTER: We had in the vicinity of 90 to 110 marginal congressional districts.
And we -- we looked at them. And we also looked at -- at states like North Dakota, uh, you know, South Dakota, where -- where money -- small amounts of money made a big difference. But the Senate -- the senator from that state was just as important as the one from California or New York.BERNSTEIN: Right.
HOLAYTER: Uh, s -- and that's the theory that I -- I got going. And, uh, uh,
and -- and the main thing I think that came out of that was -- was m -- before that all the decisions -- not all. But most of the d-- decisions were made by 00:44:00the, you know, the president and the resident vice president. Not -- not to, you know, not to take it away from them. But the decisions started to be made by the people. I developed a program where we would not never -- never make a contribution to a candidate unless that candidate was endorsed by our state council. If it was for a congressional district or a Senate race.BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.
HOLAYTER: We w –- j -- just wouldn't do it. Before that – forg -- erase
that. Erase that thought. We were not as democratic as we should have been. And -- and it -- it m -- uh, uh, and incidentally it increased our fundraising, uh.BERNSTEIN: Well, if candidates come to be interviewed by the --
HOLAYTER: Yeah.
BERNSTEIN: -- state council and they have a -- yeah.
HOLAYTER: Well, made -- it made our -- our people in the field more part of the
whole process. And of course we started raising more money and doing a lot 00:45:00better. At one time we were the fourth, uh, after campaign -- after the campaign legis--, uh, campaign law legislation in -- when was that, '74 or whenever it was after Watergate, you know, they passed some laws and stuff.BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.
HOLAYTER: Uh, we became the fourth largest, uh, political action committee
moneywise in the country.BERNSTEIN: No kidding.
HOLAYTER: Yeah. There was a time. Now I don't know where we are. Uh, because I
don't pay any attention to it. But, uh, from '72 until I retired on May 1 of '92 I was the director. Uh, in between that and -- and, uh, I even -- you'll note it in there. Which I objected to, but being a good machinist, I said, "I'll -- of course I'll do it." In 1980 George Poulin was the resident 00:46:00vice president. Uh, Winpisinger was the president. George Poulin says, uh, "We're going to, uh, merge the legislative department with the political department." I said, "That's a mistake." And he says, "But we want you to be the director of the merged department." And I said, "Well, uh, if you're going to do it, uh, you know, of course I'll -- I'll do it." But in 1981 then I became the director of the -- of the legislative poli -- political action department of the machinists' union.BERNSTEIN: So in the '70s there are two separate -- the legislative is separate?
HOLAYTER: Two separate departments, yeah.
BERNSTEIN: And legislative s--, uh, are the people who lobbied on the Hill?
HOLAYTER: Yeah.
BERNSTEIN: And political action you --
HOLAYTER: I just did the politics. The n -- uh, raising the money.
BERNSTEIN: Connecting with the membership.
HOLAYTER: Deciding where money goes. You know, all this kind of --
BERNSTEIN: And all the campaigns across the country.
HOLAYTER: Uh, uh, activating the membership. That -- that sort of thing.
00:47:00Political activating the membership. Yeah. And, uh, but I did lobby.BERNSTEIN: So --
HOLAYTER: Uh, I helped, uh. Whenever there was a little problem here or there,
they needed some help, who'd they call on? You know, the guy with the money. Uh, I helped with -- I helped with, uh, ERISA. I helped with the OSHA. Uh, I became, uh, uh, somewhat important in two ways. A guy by the name of Phil Burton. You ever know that name?BERNSTEIN: Sounds familiar.
HOLAYTER: Phil and I were good buddies even before I came to Washington.
Congressman from San Francisco. Phil and I -- dinner next door. When he wanted to escape he'd come over to my apartment and -- and, uh, Phil was a big drinker in them days and so was I. Anyway, uh, Phil Burton and, uh, Norm Mineta. Norm Mineta was chair of the Transportation Committee. And Norm Mineta and I 00:48:00went to high school together.BERNSTEIN: No wonder you were such a valuable lobbyist.
HOLAYTER: So I had the in there. Yeah.
BERNSTEIN: Yeah.
HOLAYTER: Speaking of Phil Burton, Phil helped me on so many things, you know,
legislative stuff. Uh, because, you know, he was like the -- the, uh, second on the, uh, uh, what was the name of the committee? The one that Udall was the head of. Commerce. Not, uh, I don't know. Anyway, and, uh, Phil Ph -- Phil could get things done. He was the kind of guy who could cut deals with the -- the Republicans. You give me this, I'll give you that -- that kind of stuff. You know, Phil died and then his wife Sala became the congresswoman. And I'm kind of -- I, you know, have to look it up, the years. Then Sala contracted cancer 00:49:00and Sala asked -- I was very close to Sala too. Asked me… She says, "There's a person by the name of Nancy Pelosi that's going to run for this seat. I want you to support her." In that election there were eight Democrat. It was w -- after Sala died. There were eight Democrats in the primary. Primary was election in San Francisco.BERNSTEIN: Right. Of course.
HOLAYTER: As you -- as you know.
BERNSTEIN: Yeah.
HOLAYTER: The, uh, San Francisco Central Labor Council endorsed some guy, I
forget who the hell it was even. We endorsed Nancy Pelosi. We set up a phone bank in our, uh, air transport lodge office in -- in San Mateo. Got the list of all the registered Democrats. Started phoning like crazy. Nancy Pelosi won. And Nancy and I have been friends ever since. Yeah. Little stories like that.BERNSTEIN: Helping people.
HOLAYTER: Yeah.
00:50:00BERNSTEIN: Find early money.
HOLAYTER: Yeah.
BERNSTEIN: Early help is important. So '72 is -- is the -- do you remember
that election?HOLAYTER: Yeah. That's the year that after the, uh, exec -- the executive
council meeting of the AFL-CIO met in Florida. Uh.BERNSTEIN: And d -- you went to that as political director?
HOLAYTER: Pardon me.
BERNSTEIN: You would g -- you went as political director.
HOLAYTER: Oh yes. Absolutely. Yeah. We had even separate meetings there. And,
uh, that was, uh, McG -- uh, I'm trying to remember that. It was after the nomination of McGovern, which would have been what, in J –- J -- July something or other. And --BERNSTEIN: Right. Midsummer.
HOLAYTER: Sixty-eight. No. Uh, dates. Anyhow it was after that that the council
decided not to endorse McGovern. And that's when Red Smith said -- tried to 00:51:00put together a labor committee for McGovern, which we did. Uh, basically we -- we put, uh.BERNSTEIN: Did -- did you start while you were still in Miami?
HOLAYTER: We s -- I started talking while still in, uh.
BERNSTEIN: Uh.
HOLAYTER: Where were we? Not Fort Lauderdale. But, uh, Bal Harbour.
BERNSTEIN: Right.
HOLAYTER: Bal Harbour.
BERNSTEIN: Yeah.
HOLAYTER: That's where I first met your father as a matter of fact. Yeah. Yeah.
BERNSTEIN: Yeah. He went every year. Every time.
HOLAYTER: Where -- where I first met him. And, uh, so I contacted normal allies,
you know, CWA and graphic, uh, com-- graphic arts union and, uh.BERNSTEIN: AFSCME.
HOLAYTER: Uh, yeah, AFSCME. There -- there were 9 or 10 unions. But there were
the two, uh, two outs-- one outsider, UAW. We g -- I got UAW to come in. Uh, uh, we made --BERNSTEIN: Garment workers?
HOLAYTER: -- steelworkers. Steelworkers, absolutely. And, uh, why the hell
can't -- memory. Uh, the president of the CWA at the time was -- I can see him 00:52:00but I can't tell you his name. I want to say Webb, but it's not Webb.BERNSTEIN: Huh.
HOLAYTER: Uh, anyway we made him the chair of the labor committee for McGovern.
And it was mostly machinist money that started it naturally, our political funds. And, uh, of course we knew we weren't going to win, but we still were the labor c -- and incidentally out of that I became very close friends with George McGovern.BERNSTEIN: Really.
HOLAYTER: Yeah. I introduced George McGovern to a restaurant, uh, uh, in -- in
Washington, DC across from our office. And he and his wife would go there quite often. Uh, George, uh, would take, uh, my wife and I to the Kennedy Center, uh, for concerts. That's where my wife got to meet Leonard Bernstein, because 00:53:00George McGovern and Leonard Bernstein were good friends.BERNSTEIN: I didn't know that.
HOLAYTER: Yeah.
BERNSTEIN: Huh.
HOLAYTER: And my wife got to meet Leonard Bernstein through George McGovern. Uh,
matter of fact, uh.BERNSTEIN: So --
HOLAYTER: Uh, go ahead.
BERNSTEIN: Uh, I was just going to say --
HOLAYTER: I --
BERNSTEIN: Was there a moment during that campaign when you thought he might win?
HOLAYTER: Pardon me.
BERNSTEIN: Was there a period when you thought there was a chance of success?
HOLAYTER: With McGovern?
BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.
HOLAYTER: Never. Never. Was preordained that he was not going to win. Yeah, you
could tell that by getting the -- getting the information from your people in the field. Uh, asking them the -- the questions about, you know, how's things going. Everything was, uh.BERNSTEIN: But people still worked as hard as they could.
HOLAYTER: The good solid Democrats did, yeah, yeah. You never give up. As a
matter of fact, that was the time when I, uh, no, that was '68 when I got mad at, uh, Don Edwards. You remember that guy?BERNSTEIN: Uh-huh.
00:54:00HOLAYTER: Don and I were good friends. But Don and I deserted Hubert Humphrey
during the election. Didn't go for Nixon, but didn't do anything to help Hubert Humphrey. And I got mad at Don over that. Yeah. So, uh, '72, yeah, we -- we -- we worked for the McGovern stuff and -- but knew it wasn't going to work. Anyway where do we go from there?BERNSTEIN: Uh, t -- you mentioned that you were, uh, connected and played a role
in OSHA.HOLAYTER: Yes.
BERNSTEIN: Tell me about that.
HOLAYTER: ERISA.
BERNSTEIN: And ERISA.
HOLAYTER: All you need is some v -- you know, uh, uh, uh, you know, you -- you
list out every member of Congress that you're going to try to get, uh, a vote from. And they asked me to contact certain people that I, you know, was --BERNSTEIN: Who asked you?
HOLAYTER: The guy in the legislative department. As a matter of fact, uh.
00:55:00BERNSTEIN: This is before they're tog -- they're -- before they're
together. OK.HOLAYTER: Yeah. Oh yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, this was '72, '73. Uh,
OSHA was signed in '74 I think. You know, after that I said, "You know, Nixon is not a pro-labor guy but he's done some good stuff for us."BERNSTEIN: He, uh.
HOLAYTER: He really has.
BERNSTEIN: He -- yeah. He -- he was -- had a --
HOLAYTER: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, you know, I got -- I --
BERNSTEIN: -- very mixed -- even -- you can't hate everything he did.
HOLAYTER: No.
BERNSTEIN: You can hate him but you can't hate everything he did.
HOLAYTER: That's absolutely right. And I -- I've said that many times, yeah.
BERNSTEIN: Yeah.
HOLAYTER: That -- that he -- he gave us some pretty good stuff. Yeah.
BERNSTEIN: D-- would you bring members to l-- to go visit their --
HOLAYTER: Oh yes. Yeah. Uh, in key places where members were close to a
particular member of Congress.BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.
HOLAYTER: I can't remember specifics but yeah, uh.
BERNSTEIN: So did you keep lists?
HOLAYTER: Pardon me.
BERNSTEIN: Did you keep l -- did you keep this all in your head?
HOLAYTER: I kept a lot of stuff on paper until the National Right to Work
00:56:00Committee got the right to look at all of our records. And then I started not writing stuff down.BERNSTEIN: Oh.
HOLAYTER: That was in --
BERNSTEIN: When was that?
HOLAYTER: I think '76, '77, in that era. They got the right to go through
all of our files. Out of that a book was written, The Hundred Million Dollar Payoff. Uh.BERNSTEIN: Huh.
HOLAYTER: By one of the Watergate guys. The w--
BERNSTEIN: Oh yeah.
HOLAYTER: The one who s-- s-- said, "Yeah, I'll even burn my hand," or
stuff like that. The crazy guy.BERNSTEIN: Woodward.
HOLAYTER: No.
BERNSTEIN: Berns -- Woodward and Bernstein. Oh, uh.
HOLAYTER: Uh, uh, uh, the crazy guy for Nixon.
BERNSTEIN: The cr -- oh. The -- oh I -- oh yeah. Yeah, uh.
HOLAYTER: W -- one of -- one of the guys who was caught in the Watergate. Uh,
anyway the name of the book is The Hundred Million Dollar Payoff.BERNSTEIN: OK. Got it. OK.
HOLAYTER: Uh, out of, uh, actually out of that, uh, out of the -- them getting
to look at all of our records and papers and stuff, court order. He was able to get that information and write a lot of crap in there about the unions and their 00:57:00involvement in politics. Uh, I -- I think, you know, that was somewhere s-- in -- in the late '70s as I recall.BERNSTEIN: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
HOLAYTER: Yeah. Yeah. And we -- incidentally --
BERNSTEIN: So --
HOLAYTER: We tried. Uh, we tried, uh, through the courts to get, uh, to get the
right to, uh, by court order to get the right to look at the National Right to Work Committee's files. Never would give it to us. Shows you how the courts are. Yeah.BERNSTEIN: Not pro working people. So you stopped k -—keeping things on paper
but, uh.HOLAYTER: Yeah. Yeah. And a lot of it was over an elect -- Senate election in
Arkansas too. That's when -- what the hell were we opposing? Somebody. I think it was with David Pryor. The -- the -- the father of the present Pryor, uh, who was a moderate conservative Democrat, but we still wanted a Democrat. Yeah. Uh, 00:58:00as a matter of fact we had a guy stand up. I should have said something, uh, at the meeting yesterday about, you know, we got into w -- with the present director w -- made a speech. Uh, about well, I support a Republican or a Democrat, depends on how they vote. Well, the most important vote naturally is the first one they make for the organization of the body. Uh, you know, I'll support a -- hold my nose and support a rotten Democrat if a vote for the majority is needed or the -- or the speaker --BERNSTEIN: Is going to g --
HOLAYTER: Over the Republican.
BERNSTEIN: Right.
HOLAYTER: Yeah. Because that's the most important vote. As you can see today
with the House. Yeah. Yeah.BERNSTEIN: Absolutely.
HOLAYTER: So anyway, uh, where are we.
00:59:00BERNSTEIN: So you're political director and, uh, you're telling me about
some of the key battles or efforts that you --HOLAYTER: Well, after --
BERNSTEIN: -- helped with. Did you continue to travel all the time?
HOLAYTER: Oh yes.
BERNSTEIN: Always.
HOLAYTER: As a matter of fact I probably was out of Washington, DC 50% of the
time. I used to add the mileage up, 200,000 miles in a year every year.BERNSTEIN: That's a lot.
HOLAYTER: I still have some original United Airlines miles before they, you
know, they put the -- you lose them after a while, uh.BERNSTEIN: Right. Right.
HOLAYTER: Think I got a couple hundred thousand original United miles. Yeah.
They keep saying they're going to take them away but anyway I traveled an awful lot. But I would always come back to Washington, DC naturally because I had work in Washington, DC all the time. And I would come back when they abs-- absolutely needed me on something because I h -- I had a couple pretty good 01:00:00political people. Person by the name of Dorothy Ellsworth who was well well connected in -- in Congress. Uh, Dorothy Gannon-Ells -- Dorothy Ellsworth-Gannon. Now she -- she married Jack Gannon who was the president of the firefighters' union at the time.BERNSTEIN: Oh, that's why I know. I know that name. OK.
HOLAYTER: And, uh, uh, [Margery?], uh, goddang it, why can't I think of
Margery's last name? My socialist Marjorie worked both politics and legislation. And then Maria Cordone. Uh, I hired her. I didn't hire her, uh, Wimp asked me. W -- when Wimp, uh, was retiring he came down to my office. He didn't call me up to his office. He came down to my office and he said, 01:01:00"Bill," he says, uh, "I want you to consider putting Maria on your staff." Gosh, this is the president asking me. Uh, I said sure. He said, "But I want you to know if she doesn't work out, if -- if you don't think she's doing a good job, you -- you -- you let," uh, Kourpias was going to be the president, "you let Kourpias know and we'll put her someplace else." I says, "Well, under them conditions what could I say, you know?" So she -- that's -- Maria came in. Maria became really good on the Hill. For some reason or another her and Dorothy both -- I don't know whether it was the female thing or -- or what. But they were both very good with -- with members of Congress. And of course Dorothy took -- kind of took her under her wing too and showed her around. Uh, you know, where the tunnels are and all this kind of stuff. Uh, they did very good work, uh, for me. Uh, and incidentally Dorothy is 01:02:00still alive and, uh, she's still doing some legislative work in Colorado for the Alliance for Retired Americans.BERNSTEIN: No kidding.
HOLAYTER: Yeah. She's been retired for a while. So, uh, but, you know, s –-
c --, you know, I had very good connections, personal connections. Uh, Jim Oberstar. Uh, es-- especially committee, uh, ch--, uh, committee chairs. You know, uh, and Phil Burton became the chair of the Labor Education Committee. Uh, Mo Udall, uh, uh.BERNSTEIN: Who you knew from --
HOLAYTER: Udall from Arizona. Yeah. He --
BERNSTEIN: But how did you -- how did you know him?
HOLAYTER: Oh, you get to know them because of being the political director of
the machinists' union. Hell, I was on Mo Udall's fundraising committee, even though I'm a machinist. But, uh, matter of fact, one of the stories, uh, is -- and, uh, and, uh, uh, do you ever hear about the coal slurry pipeline vote? 01:03:00BERNSTEIN: The which pipeline?
HOLAYTER: Coal slurry pipeline.
BERNSTEIN: Oh yes. Yes.
HOLAYTER: The, uh, the, uh, coal companies wanted to build a pipeline from
Wyoming coalfields down to, uh, Louisiana to the power plants down there. And they wanted to build this pipeline and they called it coal slurry because the -- the -- the coal was mashed up into little like dust almost and shot through this pipeline with water. Well, it was environmentally crazy to -- to begin with. But -- but secondly it would put a lot of our railroad people out of work. So, uh, but the Building and Construction Trades Department wanted the coal slurry pipeline.BERNSTEIN: Because it's building and construction jobs.
HOLAYTER: Because they would build it. But, you know, we used to tell them. I
said, "Yeah, this is a one-shot deal for you guys. You know, this isn't a -- "BERNSTEIN: A lifetime job.
01:04:00HOLAYTER: Lifetime job for our guys. Anyway it was in trouble. Uh, they were
going to -- going to lose. Mo Udall was the chair of the committee that voted it out. Phil Burton was s -- second-ranking on that committee. So I had an in on the c -- on the committee through Phil. And, uh, of course Mo and I were good friends. Uh, I'm on his fundraising committee, mind you. And Mo knew I was working the other side. He was for the coal slurry pipeline incidentally.BERNSTEIN: Huh.
HOLAYTER: And, uh, part of his reasoning was even though he was a great
environmentalist, we have one in -- small one in Arizona. And I guess they did. He said, "We have no problem with it." I said, "Yeah, but this one is going from Wyoming to Louisiana."BERNSTEIN: It's a little different. Yeah.
HOLAYTER: You know, a break in the line. It's, uh, it's like the oil line
breaks t --BERNSTEIN: Yeah.
HOLAYTER: So anyway, uh, the -- the vote was in -- in trouble. Uh, we had a
01:05:00coalition of -- of -- of railroads, railroad companies, and unions that were involved with railroad labor. Machinists, the -- it was BRAC at the time, Brotherhood of Railway, Airline Clerks.BERNSTEIN: Right.
HOLAYTER: Uh, which is now TCU and a part of the machinists. And, uh, locomotive
engineer, you know, all the railroad unions. And they'd meet every Tuesday at a little hotel conference room, uh, off of Dupont Circle in Washington and go over their strategy and what congressmen -- well, you know, they'd count the numbers. They were in trouble. So, uh, they asked me to come to a meeting one day, one of their regular meetings, and I went. And they asked me to become chairman of -- of the coalition. I said, "Geez, you know, I got a whole lot of other things I got to do. But," I says, "important, OK, I'll become chair." So we had -- we had about 25, 26 people that would attend these 01:06:00meetings. And over the course of our working on it, I discovered that we had a leak someplace. So I had a meeting and a meeting. Yeah, I didn't know who the leak was, but I knew who the solid people were for sure. Uh, you know, I couldn't pinpoint who was giving the other side information, uh, from our meetings. So I developed, uh, a s-- a small group, uh, a couple of the, uh, uh, lobbyists from the railroad industry and a couple of people that -- union people that I knew I could trust absolutely. And we went to work. And, uh, out of our meetings we would have meetings with the Republicans and Democrats in the House. 01:07:00And I remember there was a Republican who -- who was the head of this kind of coalition from -- from Nebraska. I can't remember his name. But he was like the chair of the Republicans and Democrats that were against the coal slurry pipeline. And, uh, we would meet with them and let them know where we thought we were votewise. And of course on the -- the day of the vote, we met with them in the morning. And I went over the votes with them. I says, "I'm not going to tell you person by person by person. But I'll tell you how many votes we have." Uh, we -- we -- we, uh, I came within two votes of defeating the coal slurry p -- I mean we defeated the coal p -- slurry pipeline. But I came within two votes of the number that we -- we had. That night, just so happened we had a, uh, uh, a dinner of the fundraising committee -- of Mo Udall's fundraising committee. It was in a little downstairs, uh, restaurant in Georgetown. And 01:08:00after the meeting was over -- not a word was said by Mo to me about it till the meeting was over and everybody was getting up and leaving. And Mo -- Mo says to me, says, "Bill," he says, "You know, I wanted that coal slurry pipeline to pass." And he says, "You know," his words, he says, "you rolled me today." I says, "What do you mean?" He says, "Well, you beat me today. You rolled me." He says, "You'll never have to worry about it as long as I'm chair of that committee again." I said, "Well, w -- well, why not?" He said, "Because I'll never bring that up again." That was the end of the coal slurry pipeline.BERNSTEIN: Really.
HOLAYTER: Uh, yeah. Never did come up again, yeah. Uh, fun days sometimes.
BERNSTEIN: That's impressive, huh?
HOLAYTER: Yeah. Yeah. Whenever something on the Transportation Committee, which
we were very involved in because we're very involved in the transportation industry. Norm Mineta and I were high s -- you know, we were high school ch -- 01:09:00we -- we went to -- we -- we graduated the same year, 1950. Uh, so Norm and I were good friends. I kind of lost track of him too after he beca-- after he left the secr -- he became secretary of transportation if you'll recall after, uh, uh, under Clinton. And then he resigned. Uh, uh, I talked to him, uh, shortly, uh, before he resigned. He says he d -- just couldn't take it anymore, back -- tremendous back pain all the time.BERNSTEIN: Uh.
HOLAYTER: Yeah. So he resigned. Then I lost track of him. Yeah, of course I -- I
was out -- I was out in, uh, Washington State by that time anyway. Uh.BERNSTEIN: So while you were still in Washington, DC were there other
environmental issues where you were --HOLAYTER: Oh yeah, all the Nunn stuff, yeah.
BERNSTEIN: -- torn between --
01:10:00HOLAYTER: I was never torn. Clean air. Our union was never torn like some of the
other unions were. And incidentally, uh, the steelworkers, who had a big stake in this, were just as -- as for lack of a better word liberal on, uh, the Clean Air Act and all this stuff, because they realized their -- their members were breathing that same crap --BERNSTEIN: Right.
HOLAYTER: -- as everybody else was. So if you could clean up the -- the
atmosphere it was better for everybody. Now the steelworkers were with us on all of that environmental stuff. But some of the other unions weren't.BERNSTEIN: Yeah.
HOLAYTER: But mostly they -- they wouldn't come out. I mean, uh, it was like
they were a little embarrassed. But they wouldn't, uh, come out and fight hard to, uh, to -- to not do, you know, the clean air clean water, uh, kind of stuff. But we were always in the fore -- our union to its credit was always in the forefront of that stuff. And I think a lot of it was, uh, even though Red Smith was a conservative when I first became the political director, even though Red 01:11:00was a conservative, he still kind of went along with our liberal leanings. And then of course when Wimp became president, uh, first thing Wimp, you know, Wimp became president on January 1 of 1980, '89, whatever the year was. And he took over. He had a staff meeting at midnight starting January 1. And he had a staff meeting. And he, uh, laid out to the staff, you know, the old rah rah work work. And after the meeting, uh, I -- I said to Wimp, I says, uh, "I know it's normal. Do you want a letter of resignation?" And he says, "No," he says, "Bill," he says, "the only thing I want from you is that whenever you're in doubt about anything go to the left." His exact quote. Whenever you're in 01:12:00doubt on anything go to the left. Said, "That's pretty easy." Uh.BERNSTEIN: Did you work closely with him before he became president?
HOLAYTER: Oh yeah. Uh, uh, uh, Wimp was the president before he became president.
BERNSTEIN: Uh, OK.
HOLAYTER: Uh, I don't -- yeah. You can read between the lines.
BERNSTEIN: Yeah.
HOLAYTER: Yeah. Wimp -- Wimp really ran the union. Yeah. Red was a decent guy
but Red, uh, uh, w -- Wimp ran the union. Yeah. Well, he was resident vice president at the time too. So that gave him the --BERNSTEIN: Uh-huh.
HOLAYTER: -- the chair to do it really. Yeah. Good guy to work for. Easy guy to
work for. He says, uh, later, you know, other times he says, "But look, you ever make a mistake," he says, "don't worry about it, I'll back you up on it. But," he says, "you know, if you do it honestly rather than, you 01:13:00know, stupidly," he says, "I'll back you up." And he s-- he told me, "Don't ever make a commitment you can't keep." So we, you know, our -- our, uh, uh, our -- our philosophy became that. If you make a commitment you got to live up to it. No matter what, yeah. A lot of that became evident in the draft Kennedy, uh, movement. You know, I was the one who did the draft Kennedy stuff.BERNSTEIN: Really.
HOLAYTER: The footwork on that, under the instructions of William W.
Winpisinger. We had -- I got other unions involved in it. Ah, they'd make a commitment. Money, people, whatever. Couldn't live up to it. We made a commitment, we lived up to it. No matter what, yeah, we -- we -- we're known for that. Yeah. And Wimp was a great guy to work for. Absolutely great guy. And of course George was good to work for. God, George and I are very very personal 01:14:00friends. Uh, right from -- as you see now. I -- I, uh, George and I hang around together all the time.BERNSTEIN: Yeah.
HOLAYTER: Uh, yeah.
BERNSTEIN: So tell me a little bit about civil rights and the machinists.
HOLAYTER: It was difficult in some places. I remember, uh, uh, the -- the --
Jesse Jackson. Uh, you know, Wimp -- Wimp nominated Jesse Jackson at the -- what the heck was that? The '88 convention or whatever convention it was.BERNSTEIN: Uh, OK.
HOLAYTER: Oh, I'd go. Be -- I'd be out in the field in Kentucky and several
places. "Uh, what's the matter with our international president? Is he going crazy? You know, supporting this nigger." I said, "Well, you know, he believes in it. And if you ever listened to him you'd know why." And, uh, 01:15:00w-- Wimp, uh, was very good at convincing people of his position on things. Uh, they may not have agreed with him, even after he was done. But they admired him for that position he had. A lot of it I'll never forget over -- over our, uh, our position on the defense spending. And -- and -- and the building of all the -- this, you know, weapons of war and stuff. And we'd get into arguments with people at, uh, it was d-- District 837, the McDonnell Douglas.BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.
HOLAYTER: That was one of the worst places we had because they were building
nothing but fighter planes. And -- and that's when we, uh, we put legislation in the, uh, conversion -- converting from, uh, defense to domestic. And in the process, uh, we tried to get some money for training and stuff like that. But it never really worked out. But Wimp -- Wimp would -- would necessarily not -- 01:16:00BERNSTEIN: Mm.
HOLAYTER: -- convince them. But would, uh, you know, really articulate the
reason why. Yeah. Like, uh, see, me and Kourp were talking about and -- and -- and Maria. Uh, were you in there when we would open the program and you'd have the pledge of allegiance to the flag and then the -- and then the, uh, singing of the national anthem?BERNSTEIN: Of, uh, Canada and -- yes.
HOLAYTER: Shit, nothing but warplanes and warships. What the hell is going on
here for Christ's sake?BERNSTEIN: I was wondering about that slideshow.
HOLAYTER: Yeah. So I said --
BERNSTEIN: As a matter of fact.
HOLAYTER: What the shit? We're at war yet?
BERNSTEIN: Is it they just used an old slideshow? Or, uh.
HOLAYTER: They still think a lot of our members I guess are involved in -- in,
uh, defense work. And some of them are. But not as much.BERNSTEIN: It's got to be many many fewer, yeah.
HOLAYTER: As -- not as much as used to. And -- and, you know, under Wimp we even
did studies. Uh, I -- I can't remember the name of the woman. Woman from the 01:17:00University of Michigan and somebody else, uh, did, uh, research on how if you take $1 and you spend it on defense versus $1 that you spend domestically you'll get two jobs domestic, one job defense. You know, we had all that information documented. Excuse me. That -- arguing and paying for that research to do that to show, uh, uh, part of it was to show our members how crazy it was for us to be spending this money on stuff we hope we never have to use, you know.BERNSTEIN: Right, yeah.
HOLAYTER: But anyway that's w -- and Wimp was great to work for. And of course
George was -- for me was even better, because George and I were so -- so close. You know, uh.BERNSTEIN: Was the research department separate from your department or --
HOLAYTER: Research department separate, yes.
BERNSTEIN: But you must have worked closely together.
HOLAYTER: Oh, worked closely together with all the departments. I don't know
if you know the name Bob Kalaski.BERNSTEIN: S -- yes.
HOLAYTER: Bob and I were great friends. He was the head of our, uh,
01:18:00communications publication department. He died a while back. Big loss to -- to us retirees in our -- in our l-- we have a little group within the retirees group that really started the retirees department with Maria.BERNSTEIN: OK. So let's go back. Uh, uh, you retired in --
HOLAYTER: Uh, my official retirement date was May 1 of 1970 -- 1992.
BERNSTEIN: Ninety-two.
HOLAYTER: Uh, I actually quit work, uh, the day after my retirement party, which
I think was January 31 or something like that. I had enough vacation b-- I was the only w-- person at headquarters that they would let accumulate vacation. Everybody else could not accumulate more than one year vacation.BERNSTEIN: Uh-huh.
HOLAYTER: Because it was part of -- part of the rules and regulations. But
because I was always out in the field, when I was back here I was working, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, I don't want to sound immodest but it was like I was too 01:19:00valuable n-- not to -- to take vacation. Yeah.BERNSTEIN: Too close to have --
HOLAYTER: So I had -- I had enough vacation built up to go from, uh, the -- the
end of January to my, uh, my retirement date on May 1. I, uh, went to work for Tom Harkin.BERNSTEIN: Oh, no kidding.
HOLAYTER: For his presidential campaign. And, uh, the day I went in there
everybody in there was s-- oh, we're so glad to see you, because I started raising money right away for Tom. And, you know, I became a very, uh, the inner circle and Tom, you know, I remember the day we met at his house out in, uh, Alexandria, and -- and -- and him and his wife. And, uh, there were about four or five other people there. And, uh, whether the election would go on or not -- the campaign would go on or not. And, uh, and it was at a point where they was 01:20:00-- would have to, uh, mortgage the house for money.BERNSTEIN: Mm.
HOLAYTER: And I was really, uh, upset about that because -- I'll tell you in a
minute. But they decided they c-- they just couldn't do that. They couldn't jeopardize the house there in Alexandria.BERNSTEIN: Their own family.
HOLAYTER: For the kids and everything. So the election was out. But at the same
time -- and I think it was a violation of campaign laws, you know, Clinton was able to borrow money from banks in Arkansas to continue his campaign. And nothing ever came of that.BERNSTEIN: Yeah.
HOLAYTER: But at that time I said I th--, uh.
BERNSTEIN: Didn't seem right.
HOLAYTER: That's got to be a violation of the Campaign, uh, Finance Act for
him to be able to borrow money from financial institutions un--, uh, what do you -- what do you -- what do you call it when you don't have anything to put up for the money?BERNSTEIN: Right. No collateral.
HOLAYTER: Yeah. No, uh, yeah. Yeah. And that's how he was able to continue in
-- in the primary and caucuses, yeah. 01:21:00BERNSTEIN: Did you come round to s-- be a Clinton supporter?
HOLAYTER: Never was a Clinton supporter. Was not against him. Uh, I -- I knew
Bill Clinton for -- I first met him in Jonesboro, Arkansas in 1972.BERNSTEIN: Huh.
HOLAYTER: When he ran against Hammerschmidt, who was the congressman in that
area. And I was there to give him $5,000 for the campaign. And at that time he was a womanizer then, and he's -- I -- I believe only his age stops him from being a womanizer. Yeah.BERNSTEIN: Is that -- is that part of your -- part of the reason you're
distant from him?HOLAYTER: Uh, no, that would, uh, was -- it was more his -- his, uh, uh, you
know, he's not a liberal Democrat.BERNSTEIN: He really isn't. It's, uh.
01:22:00HOLAYTER: Yeah, he's not a liberal Democrat, yeah. He, uh, in, uh, when he was
governor in, uh, in the '80s, oh, come to Arkansas, right to work state. You don't have to worry about the unions. We got the great environment here. You know, kind of like what Perry is doing in Texas.BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.
HOLAYTER: Has done in Texas. So, you know, he was no friend of organized labor.
And, you know, uh, he got close to Wall Street. Close to the big -- big money guys. That's why this guy Terry McAuliffe who just won in Virginia, he should have won -- if he was a good Democrat, would have won by a whole lot of numbers.BERNSTEIN: Oh yeah, no kidding, yeah.
HOLAYTER: It's -- it's, uh. Yeah, that's the wheeler-dealer Wall Street
types. Money types, yeah.BERNSTEIN: So you retire and you jump on the -- Harkin's campaign. And then
after that?HOLAYTER: Uh, uh, you know, uh.
BERNSTEIN: Obviously you haven't been idle in your retirement.
01:23:00HOLAYTER: In, uh, uh, I was very close to Al Gore. Uh, because we supported him.
As a matter of fact, uh, just, uh, to regress one time. And there's only one person alive that can attest to this story, and it's my wife. We were at a recital of George McGovern. He had taken piano lessons. And he had an apartment, uh, on Connecticut Avenue past Dupont Circle, upper Connecticut Avenue. But before you got into the, uh, area where the -- the Shoreham Hotel and all that is.BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.
HOLAYTER: It's where that curve, uh, uh, you know, yeah.
BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.
HOLAYTER: He had an apartment on the top floor. And, uh, he invited me and my
wife to his recital. And there was Albert Gore Sr., who I was fairly close to. Uh, and Art Buchwald. So --BERNSTEIN: My personal hero.
HOLAYTER: Yeah.
BERNSTEIN: I always loved him.
HOLAYTER: Great guy. Great guy. Anyhow, we're s-- w-- we're s –- n --
we're, uh, not sitting. We're standing there talking. Al Gore Sr., Art 01:24:00Buchwald and myself and my wife. Of course she was just listening. And, uh, I s-- I said to Al Gore Sr. I said, "You know, your son is going to be president someday. He's h-- he's got -- he's got the, uh, the class to be president someday." And, uh, I said that to Buchwald and, uh, and Al Gore Sr. And of course my wife can attest to it because she's still alive. The other two are dead. And son of a bitch, he -- he did become president.BERNSTEIN: Yeah.
HOLAYTER: Only the Supreme Court took it away from him, but yeah. And -- and
after that in, uh, in, uh, I w-- I was very instrumental in setting up phone banks around the country in our union halls.BERNSTEIN: For the Gore.
HOLAYTER: No, f -- just in general.
BERNSTEIN: In general.
HOLAYTER: Just in general.
BERNSTEIN: For all different kinds of campaigns. Right?
HOLAYTER: As a matter of fact, I contracted with a company to -- to buy 500
01:25:00phones. They were all reconditioned phones. So I contracted with this company to buy the 500 phones. And I'd tell anybody out there in key places, "You get -- you get a room, put the lines in, I'll give you the phones."BERNSTEIN: Uh.
HOLAYTER: One of them was District 751. I talked to them when they were building
their new building in Seattle actually, in -- in South Seattle. Uh, t-- to set up a room just for phone banks.BERNSTEIN: Huh.
HOLAYTER: I'll give you all the phones. And, uh, they did. And then, uh, in,
uh, what year was it that, uh, 2000, 2000 when it was Gore-Bush?BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.
HOLAYTER: I was, uh, uh, I lived -- I -- I lived about, uh, 60 miles away from
the -- the district because I lived on this island then. But I would come in and take a shift of the phone banks. The phone bank that I encouraged them to set up.BERNSTEIN: That you had --
01:26:00HOLAYTER: And it h -- just so happened that one day, uh, you know, I'm sitting
there. This is -- this was about one o'clock in the afternoon and we're making phone calls to, uh, to union people, uh, that we knew were, you know, either retired or on the swing shift or whatever. And in walks, uh, Al Gore and, uh, John Sweeney.BERNSTEIN: Oh, no kidding.
HOLAYTER: I'm not kidding at all. And I'm right at the door because I've
got that phone right here and all the -- the n-- figures and all the papers. And Al Gore looks, uh, he says, "Bill, what the hell are you doing here?" I says, "I'm working for you." And of course John Sweeney says hello to me. But I was still working.BERNSTEIN: Yeah w --
HOLAYTER: Yeah. But that, uh, uh, after that when -- when we moved to Montana as
a matter of fact, I was very active with the Alliance for Retired Americans. I 01:27:00was, uh, their Northwest, uh, uh, regional director. I was, uh, you'll see in there I was on the, uh, I was the chair of the -- the bylaws committee for the alliance, helped set up, uh, alliance, uh, state organizations in different places. And, uh, Charlie Williams is really the one who did a lot of good work on that. But when I moved to Montana, I said, uh, "You know, I'm away from everything, I'm up in the mountains. Uh, you know, it's hard for me to get out and -- and do things, because I -- I'm really doing something else now." We were building the lodge. And George kept saying, "Bill," George Kourpias, who was president of the alliance at the time, uh, every once in a while he'd ask me to go someplace to do something. But I wasn't doing anything on my own initiative anymore.BERNSTEIN: Uh.
HOLAYTER: And -- and G -- I kept telling George and -- and, uh, geez. Good
friend who -- who -- who's just retired as alliance president -- alliance 01:28:00executive director. Anyway, they kept saying, "No, no, stay, stay, stay." And George kept saying, "Stay until I give up the position." So I did at the same time that Barbara Easterling was elected president of the alliance. Then -- then I resigned. But up until that time I was, you know, s -- still active.BERNSTEIN: Huh.
HOLAYTER: Now I don't do much now.
BERNSTEIN: Uh, can you tell me about the -- when -- after you earlier in your
retirement -- you helped set up the retiree -- the machinist retirees programs.HOLAYTER: I helped do that plus --
BERNSTEIN: Can you tell me about that?
HOLAYTER: Plus the, uh.
BERNSTEIN: Tell me about the earliest.
HOLAYTER: OK. Uh, what -- what we did was Maria gathered, uh, uh, several people
around her. And I didn't want to do anything at first, honest to God. The first year after I retired, I was not well.BERNSTEIN: Uh.
HOLAYTER: Uh, matter of fact that was one of the reasons I retired. I'd had
two cancer operations. Uh, you know, I've, uh, I -- I've had five bouts of 01:29:00cancer and am still suffering from one. Uh, an incurable one.BERNSTEIN: I'm sorry. But you look great.
HOLAYTER: Uh, but it's -- but it -- but it's not a death-defying one right
away. It's -- it's a blood cancer.BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.
HOLAYTER: Uh, uh, very very rare blood cancer disease called Waldenstrom. I'll
tell you about that later if you want.BERNSTEIN: OK.
HOLAYTER: Uh, uh, and w -- uh, you know, I s-- I sat down with George. And I
kept telling George, "George, I'm not no good anymore. I just, you know, I don't have it in me." And besides that I was getting mad at people. Uh, Dick Gep-- I told Dick Gephardt I'd never talk to him again because he lied to us about something.BERNSTEIN: Mm.
HOLAYTER: And, you know, stuff like that. I was -- I w -- I was not feeling
well. Uh, I was getting mean and bitter. And, uh, I just said, "I'm not doing you any good anymore. Uh, I got to -- got to move on, get out of here." 01:30:00So about the first year we b-- we built the place on the tip of the island. Uh, Steve Protulis. You know Steve? He was a UAW guy but he's now the head of the, uh, uh, elderly housing.BERNSTEIN: Oh. OK.
HOLAYTER: Uh, I was very close to Steve. Steve at the time was the, uh,
executive director of the National Council of Senior Citizens. Anyhow, Steve comes out. Uh, and we're sitting on the b-- I'll never forget this. We're sitting on the balcony, uh, of -- on -- on the deck. And on the deck you could -- if that little point weren't there you could see the capitol at Olympia. Out this way was Mount Rainier. If you could see it, you know.BERNSTEIN: Right.
HOLAYTER: If it wasn't --
BERNSTEIN: And all those clear days, yes. I understand. Sounds gorgeous.
HOLAYTER: Uh, yeah. Uh, uh, beautiful, uh, you know, uh, uh, actually in the
woods, uh, of cedar and madrone. Uh, if you ever come to my h--, you know, 01:31:00place, you'll see, uh, uh, a piece of -- of, uh, stained-glass artwork of Mount Rainier and madrone tree that grew out, twisted madrone limb that grew outside our -- our window.BERNSTEIN: Uh.
HOLAYTER: That, uh, a priest who grew up with my wife became, uh, an expert at
stained glass. Uh, taught it at, uh, Carroll College in, uh, Helena.BERNSTEIN: Huh.
HOLAYTER: But anyway he did this for us. And, uh, other pieces. But we're
sitting on the deck there and of course we're drinking. And he says to me, says, "Let's call George." So we call George Kourpias. And he says, "George, why don't you run for president of the national council?" George says, "Geez." You know, George was just r-- retired. Just recently retired. And, uh, h-- he talked George into running for president. And as a result of 01:32:00that he says, "Now you got to go to work for the national council." So he talked me into doing work. So I went to work for the national council and became the Northwest regional director and then out of that into the alliance, the same thing. And -- and then when we went to Montana, very shortly after that, is when I said, "I'm resigning," because George didn't run again, uh.BERNSTEIN: But go back to when Maria calls you up.
HOLAYTER: OK. You -- you see, the f-- Maria actually got together about eight
people. I knew every one of them. Uh, I think only one or two are alive yet. Uh, when she became w-- when the department was really retirees and community services. But never -- nothing was ever done with the retirees part of it. So she got these eight guys together. She wanted me to come. I said, "Maria, I can't come. I, uh, don't feel good. I don't, uh, leave me alone." 01:33:00Anyway, they sat down and discussed, you know, how you go about really g-- getting this thing going, getting -- that one of the problems in the machinists' union and other unions is after a person retires it's, you know, don't let the door hit you in the ass, get out of here. Leave us alone. So one of the barriers that we had was convincing our own leadership that s--BERNSTEIN: It was worth an effort.
HOLAYTER: Yeah. So now I was not a part of that first year. But Maria after
that, Maria w-- kept saying, "Y-- c-- Bill, can you, you know, can you help? Can you help? Can you help?" And then I -- that's when I got involved with the national council. And then I started helping machinists. And w-- what we would actually do to a great extent is we would pick places where there was a possibility for developing a retirees, uh, chapter of -- of a union. And in a 01:34:00lot of places there already was one. But it was, you know, working kind of, uh, this and that, it was a social organization. And we were preaching not only, you know, getting together with the d--, you know, the -- the machinist member and their spouse. Retirees, uh, chapter of -- of a union. And in a lot of places there already was one. But it was, you know, working kind of, uh, this and that, it was a social organization. And we were preaching not only, you know, getting together with the d--, you know, the -- the machinist member and their spouse.BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.
HOLAYTER: And -- and having the social program, but getting involved in
politics, because it meant s-- m--, uh, of course w –- t -- old, you know, spiel of the Social Security, Medicare, and, you know, they're trying to take it away from you all the time, you know.BERNSTEIN: S -- yeah.
HOLAYTER: The old spiel.
BERNSTEIN: Yes.
HOLAYTER: And so we were trying to -- to not only develop retiree, uh, uh, uh,
chapters within the existing, uh, machinists, uh, structure, but to increase the, uh, activity of the ones that existed. And so we would pick our places and go and -- and, uh, Maria then asked me to travel with her around the country because I was the one who had all the legislative information and political 01:35:00information. And I was the one, I was known as a great speaker, and, you know, all this kind of stuff, and I could -- I could, uh, encourage people to do things and --BERNSTEIN: Inspire.
HOLAYTER: Uh, inspire, whatever. And so she got me very involved. And I did that
for a number of years with her. And we traveled. We traveled with different people. And we got George to travel with us at times and --BERNSTEIN: And you -- traveling you would go to different retirees --
HOLAYTER: Yeah. And then -- then during the election --
BERNSTEIN: Regional and local conferences.
HOLAYTER: Election periods, when we were not just trying to develop chapters, or
increase their, uh, their activities, but we were doing political work as well. Uh, campaign work, if you will.BERNSTEIN: Uh-huh.
HOLAYTER: Uh, for whoever was running for president or particular Senate race.
BERNSTEIN: So you would go to key --
HOLAYTER: Yeah. Absolutely, yeah.
BERNSTEIN: -- districts.
01:36:00HOLAYTER: Ohio was one of them. Uh, some in California. Uh, you know, different
places that were -- were -- as a matter of fact, Maria would ask me, uh, to where, you know, where the key elections were. Because I was still pretty knowledgeable at that time. Now -- now I'm not so knowledgeable because I -- I don't study it anymore like I -- I did before, yeah. Yeah. But that's how that grew. And actually y -- you got to credit Maria more than anybody because she kept, uh, uh, uh, I don't know how to put this. Uh, there -- there's always a reluctance of the existing leadership to involve retirees. It's like they're afraid of the retirees or they're, you know, they don't want anything, you know. And we tried to, uh, we tried to tell them that look, we can be of great help to you, uh, uh, formalize an organizing committee within the retirees to help you in organizing drives. Right now on their own they're --BERNSTEIN: Yeah.
01:37:00HOLAYTER: -- on the picket line. If you -- if there's a strike. And -- and --
and right now th-- there are guys that are helping organize. But it's not through the international. It's through a local or a district.BERNSTEIN: A local relationship, yeah.
HOLAYTER: Yeah. And w -- we – we'd meet with Tom and of course Tom and I
were good friends up until. Tom and I were good friends. I kept telling him, "Tom, you g -- if -- if you want it to really work you got to formalize it. Y –- y –- y -- you got to make it, uh, something that's important to you. Uh, important to the organization for it to really go. And you'll be able to develop more people out of it."BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.
HOLAYTER: These people at this conference here, most of them will go home and
not do a goddamn thing, because you don't have a -- they -- they come here for the Las Vegas.BERNSTEIN: You think?
HOLAYTER: Yeah. When they had the -- when they had the meeting, you know, we
started it here in Las Vegas to try to encourage them. We even set up legislative, uh, action committees, which I developed a program for them. A written program for them to do legislative stuff. But we never had the money or 01:38:00the formal, uh.BERNSTEIN: Structure. Support.
HOLAYTER: Uh, uh, uh, commitment or whatever you want to follow through on it.
And then it falls apart when they go home because you got Maria and a few of us old retirees doing it on a volunteer basis. And to this day it's still the same way. And until they formalize it they'll never really get good use out of the retirees of this organization. And this organization is further along than most.BERNSTEIN: It is. Absolutely.
HOLAYTER: I mean further along than most unions. UAW is very good. But the UAW y
–- y -- the -- the reason the UAW is is because so much of the per capita that goes to the international of the dues of the UAW goes into their retirement fund. And they have a lot of money to spend on -- on organizing retirees. They have made retirees a formal part of the organization. And -- and -- and then you 01:39:00go the other way. You go to -- to, uh, places like the CWA. When I was trying to collect, uh, through the national council and then the alliance, uh, tr -- trying to collect names of retirees so we could get them organized out in the f -- CWA, when a person retires, they're gone.BERNSTEIN: Hmm.
HOLAYTER: They don't even keep them on the record anyplace. And there's
other unions like that.BERNSTEIN: Yeah.
HOLAYTER: That once you retire, we don't, uh, you -- you're not on our
computer anymore. Yeah. Th-- some of them are getting better though from what I understand. But out, uh, out of m-- Maria and Maria's, uh, doggedness or whatever you want to call it, with -- with Buffenbarger, before that with -- with Thayer -- Bob Thayer was the resident vice president. Good friend. But he was never very good with retirees. You know, it's funny. They're not good with retirees until they become one. Then it's too late.BERNSTEIN: Yeah.
HOLAYTER: Then it's too late.
BERNSTEIN: Yeah.
01:40:00HOLAYTER: Uh, but, you know, she worked through that. And she would always kind
of go around him or whatever to Buffenbarger. Buffenbarger pretty well supported it but didn't really get into the for-- formalization of it for lack of a better phrase. So, you know, we were doing it hit and miss kind of stuff. But we did have some, you know, successes. Successes. We, uh, uh, District 751, uh, which I was working with very closely, because I lived out that way. Uh, they had a retirees club that was almost strictly a social thing. Lunch, uh, lunch once a month at their meeting. You know, this kind of thing. They come for the lunch. We got them going politically finally. Legislative and politically. Uh, thanks to Mark Blondin, who is now a vice president.BERNSTEIN: Uh-huh.
01:41:00HOLAYTER: Good guy. Helped put money into the retirees organization. I was able
to get $10,000 a year out of him for the Alliance for Retired Americans, uh, statewide chapter in -- in Washington. I don't know what they get now if anything out of the, uh, new one. But Mark was very good with that and -- and helped to get them going politically --BERNSTEIN: Mm.
HOLAYTER: -- and legislatively. And so they've become a little more. N -- they
could become much more powerful. But they could become a little more powerful. But you see, 751 is a strange one. Even though they do very very little, uh, defense work, they're very defense-inclined. Even though almost all of their work is -- is, you know, domestic airline --BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.
HOLAYTER: They're still --
BERNSTEIN: The mindset is to support the defense budget.
HOLAYTER: Mindset is, uh, defense stuff, yeah.
BERNSTEIN: Because it's our large --
HOLAYTER: So yeah, and we've had problems with that, because a lot of our
members think the Republicans are better on that than the Democrats.BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.
HOLAYTER: You know, uh, y --
BERNSTEIN: You think that's one of the reasons the political element of
01:42:00retiree activism doesn't -- isn't easy to make happen because there's contradictory --HOLAYTER: No. No. No. Y -- you know what I -- you know what I really think?
Person retires, they go, you know, they go in their little den and -- and forget about the rest of the world to a great extent. They --BERNSTEIN: Man, in this day and age.
HOLAYTER: Yeah. A lot of our retirees are like --
BERNSTEIN: Most of the political issues on the table are about retirees'
health and finances.HOLAYTER: Then you tell me why 62% of people 60 and over --
BERNSTEIN: Most --
HOLAYTER: -- voted for -- for McCain.
BERNSTEIN: Uh.
HOLAYTER: Can you tell me why? I think I can tell you why. But six -- can you imagine?
BERNSTEIN: No. I cannot imagine.
HOLAYTER: No. Not six -- 52% votes for McCain and 48% for --
BERNSTEIN: Uh, yeah.
HOLAYTER: For Obama.
BERNSTEIN: Uh, fear.
HOLAYTER: It might have been a little better if Obama wasn't black. Uh,
because we still have racism within our --BERNSTEIN: Yeah. Yeah.
HOLAYTER: Within our union. Within our -- within our whole population. But I
cannot understand, uh, there -- there is one -- there is one thing in there. And 01:43:00it's that age-old the Republicans are good on taxes, r- Democrats want to tax us to death. They still believe that. And the older they get, the more they believe it. And I think --BERNSTEIN: What about the Republicans wanting to take away your Social Security
and your pension?HOLAYTER: That's why I think we're able to keep at least 48% voting.
BERNSTEIN: I know. I know we're on the same page. But so tell me, I want to
hear your --HOLAYTER: Yeah. Uh, I, uh, uh, and -- and incidentally something else we did
find out.BERNSTEIN: Yeah.
HOLAYTER: After the w -- with Clinton after the Lewinsky incident. A lot of our
old people, oh, they were very much against this Democrat Clinton for doing what he did. So that's -- that sex thing came into -- to play with some of the old -- older women. Yeah. Yeah.BERNSTEIN: You know, and it wasn't about sex.
HOLAYTER: No.
BERNSTEIN: It was about, uh, integrity.
HOLAYTER: Yeah.
01:44:00BERNSTEIN: Uh, uh, that's what I think. I mean I think that, uh.
HOLAYTER: Yeah. But working with our retirees is great. And we have retirees
that are, uh, in great need. Uh, I'll -- I'll never forget a place we went to. Maria asked me to go with her. It was in Bell-- I think Bellevue, Illinois, right on the Wisconsin border, a local lodge there. I think the plant shut down or something. And here was this whole bunch of retirees that were losing their health benefits. Uh, they had it in the contract but when the place closed down, goes bankrupt, and --BERNSTEIN: Right.
HOLAYTER: -- or moves out, you know, well, they lost it. And we went and met
with them. And actually they had about three times as many retirees there as they generally had at their little retirees meeting because they were concerned about health care, you know, what could we do. We said, "Well, I don't know what the heck we could do but we could sure look into s -- to -- to trying to find someplace where we could get some kind of insurance for you." Because 01:45:00Maria not only had the, uh, retirees but community services department.BERNSTEIN: Right.
HOLAYTER: I don't know what ever came of it. But it was places like that that,
uh, she would ask me to go with her to, uh, help her out so to speak.BERNSTEIN: Help solve problems.
HOLAYTER: Yeah.
BERNSTEIN: Yeah.
HOLAYTER: And then -- and then during the campaign season a number of us would
travel together. Uh, Roger Hare, Sam Rodriguez, uh, Charlie Williams. That was the basic. Then we'd pick up somebody else when -- Frank Ortis, who is now the mayor of Pembroke Pines in, uh, Florida.BERNSTEIN: Uh-huh. I heard about him.
HOLAYTER: Uh, Don -- Don Morrow who's, uh.
BERNSTEIN: And you would tr-- you mean like in the 2008 campaign you would go to Ohio?
HOLAYTER: Yeah. Yeah.
BERNSTEIN: And stay there for a week or two?
HOLAYTER: Uh, yeah, 2000, 2004. No, we just -- we'd travel the state. We'd
actually get them to set up meetings --BERNSTEIN: Ah.
HOLAYTER: -- with the retirees. We would be here at this --
01:46:00BERNSTEIN: Oh, uh, so you would be there energizing local manpower.
HOLAYTER: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, George would travel with us sometimes. Uh, but
the -- but -- but the -- the -- the core was, uh, Roger Hare, Charlie Williams, myself, Maria, and, uh, that was the ones who went all the time.BERNSTEIN: Uh-huh.
HOLAYTER: Then we'd, uh, pick up some --
BERNSTEIN: So were you guys called the Rat Pack?
HOLAYTER: Yeah.
BERNSTEIN: And what is that name from?
HOLAYTER: I think Maria just got it from the Rat Pack era, I don't know. We
became the Rat Pack. Yeah. We -- we let them s -- we let her do it.BERNSTEIN: Does anybody have a great voice?
HOLAYTER: Huh?
BERNSTEIN: Anybody got a great voice?
HOLAYTER: Nope.
BERNSTEIN: No.
HOLAYTER: But I don't -- I did meet, uh, Frank Sinatra.
BERNSTEIN: Yes.
HOLAYTER: That's another little offshoot of the '68 campaign. You know,
Frank Sinatra was very active in the Humphrey campaign. Uh, he s -- he had a house in Palm Springs at the time.BERNSTEIN: Yes.
HOLAYTER: He invited, uh, everybody that could come. And this was like a month
before the election. Everybody that could come that was, you know, one of the 01:47:00campaign leaders for the Humphrey for president campaign to his house in Palm Springs.BERNSTEIN: No kidding.
HOLAYTER: So I got to go down there and meet him. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, he -- and --
and then he became a Republican.BERNSTEIN: Ah.
HOLAYTER: Yeah.
BERNSTEIN: Huh. I want you to tell me what you think the, uh, your vision of a
structure for a retired, uh, machinists organization would look like.HOLAYTER: I'm not sure. But I -- I t-- to go back to it, I think you have to
have some kind of a formalized, uh, not a constitution, but some kind of a, uh, a, uh, w-- what would you call it? Uh, what the -- what the thing is supposed to do. Uh.BERNSTEIN: A mission statement.
01:48:00HOLAYTER: Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Mission. Mission. What's the mission of this
organization? And -- and -- and not just live it but again formalize it. Make it a part of the organization. Yeah. Y –- y -- you got a department but it's not really part of the organization. It's, uh, it's a hit-or-miss affair. Uh, fund it. Fund it better than you're funding it now. We had advocated but never could get it into our grand lodge convention to take some of the per capita tax of the international, you know, the international gets --BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.
HOLAYTER: -- so much per capita tax from the dues --
BERNSTEIN: Right.
HOLAYTER: -- of every member. And set it aside for a retirees program so that
the retirees program has some money to operate on. Some -- if you want to, uh, you know, uh, hire more people to -- to do the job than one person and a secretary who has responsibility for retirees, community services, and on and on. 01:49:00BERNSTEIN: And EAP, yeah. Huge.
HOLAYTER: Uh, yeah. Uh, and h -- and have a staff.
BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.
HOLAYTER: Like you would in the political legislative department or any other
department. And, uh, funded. Uh, fund volunteers. Even though, you know, I can af-- go here and there, it does cost money. And some of them don't even have as much money as I have. Some of our retirees that are good. But if you ask them to do something you ought to at least pay their expenses kind of thing.BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.
HOLAYTER: We don't have money for that.
BERNSTEIN: Yeah.
HOLAYTER: Yeah. Or we don't have a great deal. Now my expenses were pretty
much paid all along the way. Although I did do some stuff without being paid. But, you know, if I had to travel to Ohio or someplace like that Maria would pick up -- that department would pick up. But that money didn't come out of the machinists' union. We have a dues checkoff that goes to the retirees 01:50:00department. I think I check off $5 a month that goes to the retirees department. Yeah.BERNSTEIN: So that money came from retirees' dues. It comes out of you. Yeah.
HOLAYTER: That comes fr -- out of my -- out of my -- out of my retir -- out of
my retirement, uh, pay, yeah. Yeah, doesn't come out of dues.BERNSTEIN: Right.
HOLAYTER: It's a voluntary contribution to the retirees department. Yeah.
BERNSTEIN: Oh I see. Got it. Got it. Yes. Yes.
HOLAYTER: And there are a number of us that -- that do that. Uh, uh, those that
have, uh, uh, that have a pension from the international.BERNSTEIN: Uh-huh.
HOLAYTER: Uh, is basically because it's easy to do the checkoff with the
international of our retirement pay, yeah. Just like MNPL, the, you know, the political thing.BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm. Now were you involved in setting that up?
HOLAYTER: The MNPL?
BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.
HOLAYTER: No. That was set up, I don't know, something like 20 years before I
became the director.BERNSTEIN: Were you involved in making it bigger?
01:51:00HOLAYTER: Oh yes. More active in the field. Uh, uh, bigger fundraising, which
has increased almost all the time with a little setback here and there. But, uh, and the checkoff has helped a lot to raise money, you know, it's -- it's -- it's a painless way of raising money.BERNSTEIN: Yeah. Yeah.
HOLAYTER: A -- a guy b -- I don't know if you know the name Gordon Cole. Was
our --BERNSTEIN: I'm not sure.
HOLAYTER: Uh, director of our communications, uh, newspaper.
BERNSTEIN: Oh yeah. I have heard.
HOLAYTER: Uh, before Bob Kalaski.
BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.
HOLAYTER: Gordon Cole came down to my office one day. I don't know. This has
to be 30 years ago, whenever. Whenever the $1,000 club started. And Gordon Cole says, "Bill," he says, "I'm going to give $1,000 to the MNPL, uh, PAC." Well, great. Because at that time you got whatever you could get. And out of that came the w –- n --, uh, the $1,000 club. There were -- I didn't 01:52:00become an original member. I did it the second year.BERNSTEIN: OK.
HOLAYTER: And I'm the director. You know, Kourpias, uh, Frank Souza, uh,
naturally Gordon Cole. There were like eight that were original $1,000 members. And out of that growing y-- w-- we've got I don't know how many $1,000 members. And it's not just $1,000. Like Kourp gives $2,000. And I said to Kourp, I said, "You know, I -- I'm still giving $1,000." And he says -- I wish I could give more. And -- and -- and Kourp says, "Yeah, but my retirement is better than yours. So I give $2,000." Anyhow, out of that Gordon Cole's $1,000 came our, uh, I mean we have a good cadre of $1,000 contributors now. But also the checkoff has been very helpful. And, uh, there were places where I actually had to go and sit down with the company who refused to give them checkoff.BERNSTEIN: For the political contribution.
01:53:00HOLAYTER: For the political contribution. And I, uh, and, uh, I know the biggest
one was, uh, was Republic in Connecticut.BERNSTEIN: Huh.
HOLAYTER: General Dy -- one of the -- one of the -- General Dynamics.
BERNSTEIN: Uh-huh.
HOLAYTER: Yeah. Oh, they were aw-- they're awful antiunion, you know. They had
the checkoff for their own employee -- for their own management people. And of course the law says, uh, y-- that they got to give the union the same thing as they d-- do for management.BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.
HOLAYTER: I s -- probably sat down with them three times and I f -- finally
said, "I'm going to take you to court unless you give us the checkoff there." I had to do almost the same thing with Boeing in Seattle, which now has a great checkoff going.BERNSTEIN: Hmm.
HOLAYTER: Boeing didn't want to give them the ch-- oh, it's too much, our
computer program is not set up to do it. Y—g -– t -- I don't care whether it is or not. You got to give it to them. It's the law. And I -- I had to sit down with these companies. But you could only do it where they were doing it.BERNSTEIN: Right.
HOLAYTER: If a company was not checking --
01:54:00BERNSTEIN: They were doing it for management.
HOLAYTER: Yeah. Yeah.
BERNSTEIN: Then had to do it.
HOLAYTER: And -- and of course it was easy for us to learn who was doing it.
Because of the, you know, reporting to the, uh, Federal Election Commission.BERNSTEIN: Right.
HOLAYTER: And we study those -- those records that the companies h –- w --
had, you know. H-- and -- but General Dynamics was the worst.BERNSTEIN: Uh-huh.
HOLAYTER: I mean, uh, yeah, Republic, General Dynamics. Yeah, in -- in -- in
Hartford, Connecticut. East Har -- East Hartford. I remember sitting down with them. They were awful. But the checkoff.BERNSTEIN: You were persuasive.
HOLAYTER: Uh, now remember. Uh, I've been retired for 21 -- 21 years. So
little by little by little by little by little. Now we used to for instance we'd raise about $1.2 million, maybe $1.3 million a year for the political -- for the PAC. I think they're up at like $2.5 million now.BERNSTEIN: Really.
HOLAYTER: Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, just little by little by little increasing.
01:55:00BERNSTEIN: So it's little by little.
HOLAYTER: Yeah. But we're still s -- we're -- we're small now compared to
where the other PACs, a lot of the other PACs are. Where when we first got started actually we were number four one year.BERNSTEIN: Huh.
HOLAYTER: Seventy-six or whenever it was.
BERNSTEIN: Wow.
HOLAYTER: Uh, among all the PACs, uh, in, uh, PAC money, yeah.
BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm. Yeah, the -- the landscape has changed.
HOLAYTER: Yeah.
BERNSTEIN: So --
HOLAYTER: I think there's only two unions now, uh, NEA and AFSCME or service
employees that are among the top 10. Yeah, uh, all the, uh, other ones are, you know.BERNSTEIN: Are --
HOLAYTER: Corporations. Yeah.
BERNSTEIN: Yeah. Yeah.
HOLAYTER: Uh.
BERNSTEIN: Oh dear.
HOLAYTER: OK. W -- uh.
BERNSTEIN: So I think we need to wrap up, although I'm sure there's many
stories that we haven't captured.HOLAYTER: Oh, I got a lot of stories.
BERNSTEIN: But, uh.
HOLAYTER: You'll get some of them in the book if you want to take the time to
read the book, uh, uh, uh. 01:56:00BERNSTEIN: I absolutely am. I'm so glad you brought that. And, uh, is there
anything, uh, is there one more thing you need to say?HOLAYTER: No, I --
BERNSTEIN: Need to tell me? I thank you so much.