PHILIP LAPORTE: Today is September 17th, 2014. We are at Georgia State
University in Atlanta, Georgia. My name is Philip LaPorte; I am the Director Emeritus of the Labor Studies Program at Georgia State University. Uh, today, we are being hosted by the Southern Labor Archives as part of their Oral History Project called "Voices of Labor." Uh, today, we have with us Mr. Doyle Howard. He is the former Business Manager and Financial Secretary of the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers Local 84 in Atlanta, Georgia. With me today, and assisting with this oral history interview, is Mr. Richard Ray. Richard is President Emeritus of the Georgia State AF of L-CIO, and also a 00:01:00member of IBEW Local 84. We will conduct this oral history interview with Mr. Howard, and it'll be recorded, transcribed, and available to students and academics who wish to conduct research into the labor history of Georgia and the Southeast. Uh, so, let us begin. Um, Mr. Howard, good morning to you.DOYLE HOWARD: Good morning, Phil.
LAPORTE: Uh, Doyle, I'd like to ask you, uh, initially, if you could tell us,
uh, a little bit about, uh, where you grew up, a little bit about your mom and dad, and -- and the family that you grew up in.HOWARD: Well, my father was a farmer, a missionary Baptist preacher. I had
seven brothers and four sisters, and we farmed for a living over on Sand 00:02:00Mountain, Alabama.LAPORTE: And where is Sand Mountain, Alabama?
HOWARD: Albertville is right in the heart of Sand Mountain, there's three or
four small towns across. It once was considered the nation's most densely-populated rural area.LAPORTE: Ah ha, well, that was a distinction, wasn't it?
HOWARD: Yes, it sure was.
LAPORTE: Uh-huh. And -- and what sort of crops, uh, did your family raise on
their farm?HOWARD: Cotton and corn, cattle, and produce.
LAPORTE: And Doyle, where did you fall in the family? There were 12 children?
HOWARD: I was the fifth -- the fifth child.
LAPORTE: So, you were a-- among the middle children?
HOWARD: Right.
LAPORTE: (laughter) OK. Very good. Uh, and, um, so, did you attend public
schools then in that area of Alabama?HOWARD: Yes, I did.
LAPORTE: Mm-hmm.
HOWARD: At, uh, Douglas, a little place called Douglas, Alabama, where I
00:03:00graduated from high school, 1956.LAPORTE: And ah -- did you have, uh, usual chores to do on the farm? Could you
tell us about some of the tasks that you were assigned by your dad on the farm?HOWARD: Well, pick cotton, pull corn, plow the mules, uh, pick produce, saw
wood, worked at a sawmill one of those seasons.LAPORTE: And, uh, your -- your work on -- on the farm, and going to school,
that probably took up all -- all of your time. Were there other activities you engaged in?HOWARD: I played basketball, that's about it.
LAPORTE: Uh-huh?
HOWARD: Oh, well, did a little fishing, and hunting, or right in the real cold
of the wintertime, but in -- back in those days, they let you out of school five weeks into fall to pick cotton. Of course, we never got it out of the field til 00:04:00January, so we missed a lot of school days.LAPORTE: And what was your -- your first job, Doyle?
HOWARD: Lockheed Aircraft in Marietta, Georgia.
LAPORTE: And so, how did you come to travel from Alabama, over to, uh,
Marietta, Georgia, and get a job at -- at Lockheed?HOWARD: During that period, if you had 1A card, and that wasn't much place
around home [inaudible] area anyway, so you couldn't find a job, but I had so-- some people that I knew, and they even had a brother that went, prior to that, went to work at Lockheed. And they had hired me with 1A card, so I went to work there.LAPORTE: And, uh -- your 1A card, was that the Selective Service System --
HOWARD: Dr--
LAPORTE: -- draft card?
HOWARD: Draft card, yes, sir.
LAPORTE: Uh-huh. And so, how old were you?
HOWARD: I was 20 year old.
00:05:00LAPORTE: You were 20 years old? And --
HOWARD: Stayed down and picked cotton to raise -- uh, lost some time out of
school. Coach talked me into coming back and playing basketball, was the only reason I got a high school education.LAPORTE: So, you were redshirted in high school because of your basketball skills?
HOWARD: Right.
LAPORTE: And, your dad probably needed you there to help pick the cotton?
HOWARD: Absolutely.
LAPORTE: (laughter) OK. Uh, so, uh, you were 1A, meaning, uh, that you would be
among the very first drafted, um, and this would be 1958.HOWARD: Fifty-six.
LAPORTE: Fifty-six, I'm sorry, you're right, 1956. And so, it was the
height of the Cold War. Uh, were we engaged in Korea at that time? The Korean conflict?HOWARD: The Korean conflict had just wound down.
LAPORTE: Just -- just wound down.
HOWARD: Right between the Korean conflict and the Vietnam.
00:06:00LAPORTE: Yes, yes.
HOWARD: Missed them both.
LAPORTE: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. So, um, you went, uh, you had a contact, was it
someone you knew from your hometown, or -- or someone that your family knew who was working at Lockheed in Marietta?HOWARD: My brother was working there but, uh, didn't, didn't have no pull,
just went over there and filled out an application, and June 8th, 1956, they put me to work.LAPORTE: And what was it like then, at -- at Lockheed, in 1956? Can you
describe it for us? Uh, I understand it used to be the Bell Bomber plant.HOWARD: Well, it was -- it had -- Lockheed had just been building, for about
four years, the C-130 aircraft. And there was quite an experience coming off the farm, going to work in this largest building in the whole free world. And at that time, the largest transport airplane. But I went to work on the old B -- 00:07:00the B47 Bomber. Uh, they're just phasing it out, and I think they built 10 more of them after I went to work there. And --LAPORTE: And so, you worked on the B47 Bomber line at Lockheed?
HOWARD: Right.
LAPORTE: And -- and what was your job, Doyle?
HOWARD: Oh, it's called -- uh, started out as a helper, a helper, yes. And
then the -- made what they call the assembly installer. And it was actually putting the skin on the -- well, it wasn't -- it wasn't the skin, but it was right on the back of the hand where the radar system was at, it was called structural work.LAPORTE: And, uh -- do you remember your first hourly wage?
HOWARD: It was 47 -- wait a minute, yes, $1.40 -- I believe it's $1.57 an
00:08:00hour, I can -- I'm not sure.LAPORTE: A dollar and fifty-seven cents an hour?
HOWARD: I remember what my first paycheck was, $47.94.
LAPORTE: Seven dollars and ninety-four cents! (laughs)
HOWARD: Forty-seven dollars --
LAPORTE: Oh, $47, OK.
HOWARD: -- and ninety-four cents.
LAPORTE: All right.
HOWARD: Take-home pay.
LAPORTE: Uh-huh.
HOWARD: I don't remember what the gross was.
LAPORTE: Yeah, yeah. And, uh, did you, uh, have to find, um, a place to live in
-- in Marietta, and -- and live on that, uh, first paycheck?HOWARD: Yes, I did. But, I happened to find -- well, I had a brother-in-law had
went to work over there, so I boarded with him and my sister for a number of years.LAPORTE: Mm-hmm. And so, um, you went from helper to assembly installer, and
you were putting the -- the skin on the radar unit, uh, doing structural work.HOWARD: Structural work.
00:09:00LAPORTE: And did you do that -- how long did you do that for?
HOWARD: Oh, that phased out in -- and then they sent me out on [inaudible]
probably wasn't over three months, it didn't take long to build one at that stage, to build an aircraft.LAPORTE: Mm-hmm. And -- and how many people were employed at Lockheed when you
started out in 1956?HOWARD: There were about 18,000, I think, total number, at the time.
LAPORTE: Eighteen thousand employees? Wow.
HOWARD: Yeah, they were building the C130, finishing up the bomber and started
the JetStar program so they, uh -- and you need a lot of people for manual labor.LAPORTE: And those 18,000, they were bargaining unit employees?
HOWARD: Yes.
LAPORTE: Mm-hmm, assembly workers, yeah, all right. Uh, and so, um, were you
then assigned to the C130 line? 00:10:00HOWARD: No, I went out on a mod program.
LAPORTE: OK, and can you tell me about that, the mod program?
HOWARD: Yes, where they brought them back in and ret-- retrofitted them, and
changed equipment, and -- and it was, uh, a lot of electrical work around -- [inaudible] type work, but still, I was still assembly installer, because putting all kind of components in the aircraft.LAPORTE: And what was the model that they were, uh, modifying, and how were
they modifying it? Were they, as you say, putting in new equipment, um, more --HOWARD: They were actually just, uh, changing it out, and that's actually
where I was doing the radar work was I -- I kind of mixed that up because it was -- the backbone was built, where the wiring section run --LAPORTE: Yeah.
HOWARD: -- on the inside, and one came out on the outside, then I worked at,
uh, there -- uh, putting that radar on. 00:11:00LAPORTE: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And, uh, how long did you stay at -- at Lockheed
Martin? How long did you work there?HOWARD: Well, it wasn't Lockheed Martin then, it was Lockheed only then.
LAPORTE: Right, yes, I'm sorry, you're right.
HOWARD: And, well, about three years, I think, until I got laid off. And
then's when I went in the service for a little -- well, I was already in the National Guard, but I went in active duty for six months.LAPORTE: And so, 1956 to 1959, uh, you worked at Lockheed, and you worked on a
variety of production lines, and you went from helper to assembly installer to the modification program, and was there a union there at Lockheed?HOWARD: Yes, there was, the 709 Machinists.
00:12:00LAPORTE: Well, could you tell us about your experience there? Here you were,
from Alabama, working on a farm, being a basketball star, and now you are over at -- at a suburban Atlanta community with 18,000 employees that has a collective bargaining agreement with Local 709. What was that experience like for you?HOWARD: Well, to start with, uh, refer back to my childhood, before I left
home, my father, he believed in the union with all his heart. You know, there wasn't no unions up there, but we didn't have television, we didn't -- heard very little on the radio, but there was a deal where some workers got locked out and this would be -- my -- my daddy always said, "Take a look at the people that work at these cotton mills around here, and these people that 00:13:00worked at the Goodyear, over at the hospital down in Birmingham, how much more they have than people that don't work at a union job. And so, the first thing I want you to do when you get there, join -- find whoever you have to, and join the union." So, that's what I did.LAPORTE: So, that was the message that your father --
HOWARD: Yes.
LAPORTE: -- imparted onto you.
HOWARD: Right.
LAPORTE: OK. And what about your brother-in-law, was -- was he in the union?
HOWARD: Sad to say, he freerolled.
LAPORTE: Mm-hmm, yeah.
HOWARD: We had many a battle about it.
LAPORTE: Yeah.
HOWARD: Later on in life, he joined, but --
LAPORTE: Uh-huh. And so, you joined, uh, Local 709. Tell us -- tell us about
that. Did you have to go seek someone out, or did someone come to you and ask you to sign an authorization card? Or, how did that work?HOWARD: No, they -- they asked you the very day you got there. Now, of course,
they'd tell you, you couldn't join for 90 days. They had that misconcept 00:14:00that because you're on probation, you couldn't join the union. But they'd let you join, so I joined before the 90 -- the 90 days was up anyway.LAPORTE: And -- what did you see regarding how the union, uh, affected the
workers and the working conditions there at Lockheed?HOWARD: Well, actually, it affected in every aspect of whether your breaks,
your, uh, wages, uh, the hours you worked, and who got to work overtime. Back then, people fought to get overtime, they lack the [inaudible] today, but they'd fight you for one hour. And the union made sure everybody had their fair share, made sure that the supervision and management treated you right and with respect. 00:15:00LAPORTE: Mm-hmm, and do you remember some of those, uh, leaders at, uh, Local
709 back in 1956, 1959?HOWARD: Yeah, and then of course, I went back, you know, I got laid off from --
there's more to the history, but yeah, old H.B. Savage, and, uh, Williams, I can't think of -- Clyde Williams was the -- one of them was president, and the other one was vice president. And in fact, they were my union heroes back in them days.LAPORTE: Now, the machinists, uh, are known as the fighting machinists.
HOWARD: Yeah, they fight each other pretty hard, too! (laughter)
LAPORTE: And --
HOWARD: I'll get to some of that in my second stint with Lockheed.
LAPORTE: Uh-huh. All right, uh, so, uh, you had joined, um, the National Guard.
HOWARD: Yeah, I was in the National Guard when I went to work over there.
00:16:00LAPORTE: I see. And so, uh, then you went to -- on active duty in 1959?
HOWARD: Uh, yes, recall -- no, it was the early '60, early '60.
LAPORTE: Yeah, OK. And so, tell us -- what was that like? You, uh -- you were
now active duty, and you were 20, 22 years old?HOWARD: Twenty-four years old, the time I went in.
LAPORTE: OK. You were 24 years old, uh, you're now active duty. And where did
you serve?HOWARD: Well, I served at -- took Basic at Fort Jackson, South Carolina, and
then served out the rest of my time at the -- down in, um, Fort Gordon, in Augusta, Georgia. I was in the Signal Corps.LAPORTE: And -- and how long were you on active duty?
HOWARD: Just six months.
00:17:00LAPORTE: OK. And so you -- you served out your six months, and did that
complete your military service obligation?HOWARD: No, it didn't. Uh, when I came back out, uh, I had -- well, I had a
six-year obligation.LAPORTE: Mm-hmm.
HOWARD: And I got called to active duty one time during that six -- six-year
time, too.LAPORTE: So, you completed six months, which now brings us to 1960?
HOWARD: Yes, sir.
LAPORTE: And, um, were you, um, taken off active duty, uh, in the middle of the
year, in the summer, in the fall? Do you remember?HOWARD: I don't remember, I -- I didn't --
LAPORTE: Uh --
HOWARD: -- it'd have to have been in the --
LAPORTE: So --
HOWARD: -- actually, I had a little more than six years, it was in the fall,
because of -- I had signed up for an extension at Dobbins Air Force Base in the 00:18:00Air National Guard.LAPORTE: Mm-hmm. And Dobbins Air Force Base is adjacent to what?
HOWARD: Lockheed Aircraft.
LAPORTE: (laughs) So, when you came from active duty, uh, did you return to
work at Lockheed?HOWARD: No, I didn't, I was still on the layoff list, and, uh, but I went to
work for -- well, part-time job out here was the National Biscuit Company, Nabisco.LAPORTE: Mm-hmm.
HOWARD: I worked one -- I believe I worked one shift, and I found out they was
hiring at the Atlanta Transit Company for bus drivers. Pay was a whole lot better, and they had a union.LAPORTE: The -- so, did you ever -- oh, you worked one shift at Nabisco?
HOWARD: Right.
LAPORTE: And -- and that's their plant in southwest Atlanta?
HOWARD: Yes, it is.
00:19:00LAPORTE: Uh-huh. Uh, yeah, and they have, uh, several unions there --
HOWARD: Yeah.
LAPORTE: -- at that facility.
HOWARD: Yeah, they do. You're right.
LAPORTE: Yeah, yeah. But, uh, the Atlanta Transit Company?
HOWARD: Yes, sir.
LAPORTE: So, uh, you took a job there as a -- as a bus operator?
HOWARD: Yes, I did.
LAPORTE: Mm-hmm.
HOWARD: And, uh, when was that, Doyle? That was the fall of 1960?
LAPORTE: Let's see. I can't remember. It was about -- it was -- it was in
the spring.HOWARD: Yeah.
LAPORTE: It was early '60.
HOWARD: Yeah.
LAPORTE: Yes. All right, and so, tell us -- tell us about that. That was -- was
that a privately-held company?HOWARD: Yes, uh, Somers-- Mr. Somersfield from England had bought the company,
and then I don't know how many years he had been there, but it was a private-owned company. 00:20:00LAPORTE: Mm-hmm. And -- and did you have to take, um, bus operator training?
Uh, did you have to get a special license? How did you get the job?HOWARD: I just went in and took the test, and they hired me, and then carried
you out on the route, and drove through downtown Atlanta, and see if you could stand up to it. And, you know, they still had the old trolley, the straight trolleys then. And trained you on them, and trained you on all the routes.LAPORTE: So, did you cross-train as a -- a trolley car operator and a bus operator?
HOWARD: Yes, they -- they had -- uh, they had two garages, that run all of --
it was all trolleys out of -- on Cooper Street. It was, uh, all trolleys, and then over, what you call A Division down here on Pine Street, there were trolleys and buses. They had just got those new City Slicker buses, and that's 00:21:00what all I trained on to start with. And they'd bring you right back down to Atlanta, all of that traffic. And traffic downtown was worse then than it is today.LAPORTE: And do you remember your route?
HOWARD: Well, you went on what they called extra board.
LAPORTE: Mm-hmm.
HOWARD: And you're liable to work a split shift, you're liable to run
school bus routes. In fact, for the whole two years I was there, I never got a permanent route, except on Saturdays and Sunday. And then the rest of the time was extra board. And -- and they worked you from can to can't.LAPORTE: They would work you from what, Doyle?
HOWARD: From can til can't?
LAPORTE: From can til can't? (laughter)
HOWARD: Yeah.
LAPORTE: Tell us about that.
HOWARD: Long -- long hours. What they do, you know, some special come up in
00:22:00town, they'd call you out, and if you run a bus out of town, you wound up working until the people decide to come back home, and then of course, they've never had enough drivers back in them days to fill all of the extra -- because it was extra work, people didn't want to do that work. So, yeah, it's -- I -- I -- of course, still then, they fought you, and they had a union there. And they still -- everybody fought each other for the overtime back in them days.LAPORTE: And -- and what union, uh, represented the bus and trolley operators?
HOWARD: Don't remember the local number, it was Amalgamated Transit Workers
of America.LAPORTE: Well, today, it's, uh, Local 732. I --
HOWARD: Well, it was 732 then. And Mr. Hardigree was president of that local.
Mr. Hardigree. 00:23:00LAPORTE: And tell us, uh, if you can, uh, what the contract was like? What were
the wages, were there seniority provisions? Uh, were there a grievance procedure? What was in the contract? Do you remember?HOWARD: Well, they did have a grievance procedure, they did have seniority. In
fact, that was the only place I ever worked where seniority got all overtime before the younger senior men got to work. And, uh, you picked your routes by seniority, you -- everything was by seniority.LAPORTE: And do -- do you remember the wage rate, or your weekly wages?
HOWARD: No, don't -- I can't remember.
LAPORTE: But you know it paid better than Nabisco.
HOWARD: A whole lot better!
LAPORTE: (laughs) And, uh, how long did you, uh, work there, Doyle?
HOWARD: Two years.
00:24:00LAPORTE: Mm-hmm. And -- and anything in particular you remember? Uh, this
would've been the early '60s in Atlanta. Uh, do you remember any particular event that you participated in while you were operating the trolley or the bus in downtown Atlanta?HOWARD: Yeah, I've had a -- quite a few experiences with -- uh, I never will
forget. Uh, around what's called the Shoppers -- it's called downtown and turnaround and go out to the old Ponce de Leon ballpark. There's a turnaround down there, well I -- that was in the C Division, I ain't never run that route. So, one Saturday morning, I come in, the -- they throwed it in my lap, and I had to run it. (laughter) And, uh, get out there, and I asked one of them where the turnaround is, he says, "Go right past the ballpark and turn around." Well, he didn't say right [inaudible], so you know, you run those old trolleys on the wires down to the -- so, I get out there on my second trip, 00:25:00went out, and it was early in the morning, and I missed the turnaround. Well, I don't know where I'm going now, so because I never trained in the C Division. You had to train that -- that on your own time. So -- but it was run out of, uh, A Division, but that's -- no, it was run out of C Division. So, anyway, I said -- asked a -- stopped and asked a -- stopped and called a starter at the office, and he said, "Well, go to the Frederica turnaround, and come back. Just follow the wires around." I said, "I don't know where the Frederica turnaround is." "Well, follow the first set of wires that turn left." So, I came back, and I was coming up Ponce de Leon, one of the supervisors met me, radio car let him out down there. He got on the bus, and he 00:26:00said, "Where you going?" I said, "You hunting that bus driver that got lost going down through here?" He said, "Yeah, I know who got lost, you did." I said, "No, he went over that hill." (laughter) Then I went three stops over, up, and guess who I picked up? Mr. Somersfield, the president of the company. He didn't ask me if I'd been lost, he already knew it, though. But I had a lot of funny experience. Running the special haul to a group out -- In fact, I got my first tip in my life, I carried -- I went out to a church in Monroe, Georgia, and a church group, they had all of their services out there, but they were black. And they didn't admit -- even invite me into the church there, but they brought me all of the food I could eat out there on that bus, 00:27:00then when I got back, he gave me a -- a -- the biggest tip that I ever got in my life, probably -- well, I got one more bigger than that, but I don't need to tell that story, though.LAPORTE: And -- and so you had a -- what was referred to as a special, where
the bus was hired by a church group that was --HOWARD: Right.
LAPORTE: -- having an all-night service in Monroe, Georgia.
HOWARD: You're right.
LAPORTE: And they -- you drove them out there, and they took good care of their
bus driver, they -- they fed him well, and gave him a big tip.HOWARD: Absolutely.
LAPORTE: But they didn't offer you salvation?
HOWARD: No, uh-uh! (laughter)
LAPORTE: Well, OK. Uh, so, uh, you spent, uh, two years as, uh, a bus operator
and a trolley operator, and did you enjoy that work, Doyle?HOWARD: I sure did. I was single at that time, and there's the most pretty
girls in the whole world in Atlanta, Georgia. So yes, I loved that job, but I 00:28:00got married during the time I was driving, so that was reason I quit and went back to Alabama.LAPORTE: Uh-huh. So, uh, in the early 1960s, uh, you -- you left, uh, this job
that you liked, that, that had a union, and had a contract, and, and you were building up seniority, which you told me was very important, uh, in working for, uh, the Atlanta Transit Company. Uh, but it was, um, a wedding that, that, uh, caused you to change career paths?HOWARD: Yes. You remember I told you my father was at the Missionary Baptist
Church, he was pastor in the church down in Gadsden, Alabama. And I wasn't home, the family was getting together up at the old farm at home. And, of course, I went to church with them that Sunday morning, and met my wife, future 00:29:00wife. That was in early '63.LAPORTE: So you met your wife in church.
HOWARD: Right.
LAPORTE: In Gadsden, Alabama. And what was your wife's name, Doyle?
HOWARD: Lawanda White.
LAPORTE: And was it love at first sight?
HOWARD: Absolutely.
LAPORTE: So, tell us, uh, how your, uh, life path changed, uh, one church
service in Gadsden, Alabama, you meet the love of your life, it is love at first sight, you met in your father's church, and -- well, tell us what happened from there. 00:30:00HOWARD: Well, I'd already bought a farm over there from my father. His health
had failed, and uh, so I'd already bought a service station and a grocery store out in the country, a small little place called Douglas, and -- so, after I met her, I had no intention of going back until I met her, so I decided that after I met her and we got engaged, I gave up the job at the transit company, and went back, and went to work at a little twine mill. And that was a real mistake. They had no union. And of course, later on, the -- my dad rented the 00:31:00land out and the old boy didn't make a good crop on the land, lost my tail in the grocery store and service station, because who's running it for me? You know, you -- if you can't run -- watch your cash register, what happens? And I got fired from the job at the twine mill, boy, I was suspended, because I was trying to organize the union. They didn't pay very good.LAPORTE: Well, you had a lot going on all at one time, (laughter) um, running
the -- the -- the filling station, the grocery store, getting married, uh, helping your dad, um, with the farm, and -- and then working over at the twine mill, trying to organize the union. You -- you were a busy fellow!HOWARD: Yeah, I sure was.
LAPORTE: (laughs)
HOWARD: Got very little sleep, I'll tell you that.
LAPORTE: Well, D-- tell us about, uh, trying to organize a union at the twine
00:32:00mill -- and was this in Douglas, Alabama, or --HOWARD: No, it was at Guntersville, Alabama.
LAPORTE: Guntersville.
HOWARD: It's called Boaz Spinning Company.
LAPORTE: And did you, um, identify a particular union that you worked with to
try to organize the workers there, um, at the twine factory, or the twine mill?HOWARD: Well, I really didn't get that far with it, Phil. What happened, the
word got out that I was talking to some union people out of Gadsden, uh -- they was rubber workers, actually, who -- and of course, when they found that out one Sunday night, I went to work, and started up my machine, and the old foreman comes by, and he says, "Hey buddy, cut your machine off." I was out S-- 00:33:00Saturday night sick, strep throat. So, he called me in the, uh, office and said, "Going to have to let you go, I had 18 people out Saturday night." Of course, I knew that there wasn't 18 people out, and it was the first day I'd even been out of work, too, in the four -- three or four, three to four months. Anyway, he said, "I'm going to have to let you go." I said, "Well, you got to -- why are you letting me go?" He said, "Ah, I don't have to tell you, I'm just letting you go." He said, "Punch your time card when you leave, and the -- when you, uh -- we'll mail you the check." I said, "No, I want my check now, I want you to pay me off." Of course, I knew I wasn't going to get it on no midnight shift. He said, "Well, punch your time card, and go, or I'm going to have to call the law to escort you off this 00:34:00property." I said, "Never mind, I'll go." So, next morning, I got up and old Bill Valentine was the plant manager, and he said -- I went in to see him, he said -- I said, "And Bill, you told me if I ever had any trouble, come to your office." And I said, "You told me you'd take care of me," and I told him what happened. He said, "Well, I may not be right, but I support my management. Doesn't make any difference whether you're right or wrong." And I said, "Well, will you tell me why I'm fired?" He said, "Nope." He said, "I ain't going to tell you anything." He said, "But you know what kind of activity you've been engaged in." So, he said, "I owe you ten hours for last night." I said, "No you don't, you owe me for the whole shift." I said, "I was -- you can't see--" he said, "Well, you punched 00:35:00the time card out, didn't you?" I said, "No, I didn't punch out, I just put it on the side." (laughs) He called his office help and said, "Go down and get his time card." She brought it back up there, it was early Monday morning, because I saw him when he walked in the door. He said, uh, looked at it, and let out a big cuss word, and said, "I'll pay you, but don't you ever show up here no more." I said, "I won't be back." But I said, "I'll have somebody back down here to see you about why I'm fired." But I dropped the whole idea, I got a job three days later, Hayes Aircraft in Birmingham, Alabama.LAPORTE: So, off you went to Hayes Aircraft in -- in Birmingham, and, um, you
recall, uh, how you felt, uh, after you met with old Bill Valentine, uh, and he 00:36:00said to you, "You know what kind of activity you've been engaged in." Uh, did you take that as an accusation, did you take that as what you were doing was wrong, that it was grounds to be fired? How did it make you feel, Doyle?HOWARD: It made me feel bad, because I'd never been fired from a place in my
life, and didn't like the idea, but I knew exactly where he was coming from, because the -- uh, he, he came from a non-union outfit, take that job, and, and he knew that -- I knew in my heart that he knew that I was trying to organize a union. So, of course, he knew it hadn't got off the ground, that's the reason he was gonna -- that made me feel bad that -- I don't care, well, uh, like I said, it's 12 miles to my house, and I got fired off the midnight 00:37:00shift, and that's the longest 12 miles I ever drove in my life. Wife expecting a new child, and me with all of that other problems on my hands, and being fired, it's -- it's a bad sick, sick feeling, Phil.LAPORTE: Yes. Um, and do -- do you remember what the -- what the pay scale was
at the -- the twine mill?HOWARD: It was about -- right above minimum wage. Minimum wage wasn't about
two dollars and a half an hour, then.LAPORTE: Yeah, yeah. So, y-- yeah, um -- and do you think that it, uh, created
an atmosphere of fear among the other employees after you had been fired from the twine mill?HOWARD: Oh, yes it did, but it didn't work for long, because later on, they
did organize the union after I left there. And some of my best friends and 00:38:00allies [inaudible] a minute there after I left there. It was about a year and a half, two years before they organized.LAPORTE: So, we might say that Doyle Howard laid the groundwork, uh, for the --
HOWARD: I-- I'd like to say I did, yes.
LAPORTE: So, organized the union at the -- the twine mill?
HOWARD: See, I was telling them how good everything was, you could get to break
on time, you got paid good, you, uh, had seniority of routes. But, yes, uh, I -- I think that's -- I actually started it.LAPORTE: Mm-hmm, but you had, uh, three businesses you were responsible for,
you had a wife, uh, who was about to deliver your first child, and Doyle Howard needed a job.HOWARD: I had to have one.
00:39:00LAPORTE: And so, tell me about going to Birmingham and getting hired on at
Hayes Aircraft.HOWARD: Well, I had a friend that worked at Hayes, and I, I called him up, and
so he told me just come on down the next morning, and by the way, he was a union man, too; he wasn't in management. And so, I went down there, and put in an application. With my experience, they hired me as what's called a sheet metal B. And you talk about a union place, that's one of the most stuck to each other -- what a union stood for more than any place I ever worked in my life.LAPORTE: And what was the union there at -- at Hayes Aircraft?
HOWARD: It was the Machinists, but I don't remember the number of it either.
LAPORTE: So, the IAM had the plant organized?
HOWARD: Yes.
LAPORTE: And they -- had they had it organized for a long while, Doyle, or was
it a recent event, or -- 00:40:00HOWARD: No, it -- it'd been organized ever since it was there. You know,
Birmingham had all of them steel mills, and they had the union culture.LAPORTE: Mm-hmm. And how was the -- the wage scale at Hayes Aircraft?
HOWARD: It was good, it was -- I don't remember what the wage was, but it was
-- I think it was five dollars and some an hour more than I was making at that twine mill. Well, it was five dollars. I can't remember how many cents, but --LAPORTE: So, it was virtually twice the hourly wage rate?
HOWARD: A little over twice, really.
LAPORTE: Mm-hmm. OK. And -- and how long was, uh, the commute for you, now?
HOWARD: It was 55 miles to the front gate.
LAPORTE: Yeah. So, you went from a 12-mile commute to the twine mill, to 55
00:41:00miles to the Hayes Aircraft facility in Birmingham?HOWARD: Right.
LAPORTE: Yeah. And was that common in that -- in that plant, that people would
drive great distances because of the quality of the jobs?HOWARD: Oh yes, people -- uh, carpools, you can -- there were, uh, at least
four or five carloads that come right by my place of business there in Douglas, and you can carpool with different carpools. So, yes, they all drove their kids to their high school.LAPORTE: And did you suggest to those driving the carpool that they should stop
at your filling station in Douglas and buy their gas?HOWARD: Yeah, I had them do it. I wouldn't carpool with them, if they
didn't! (laughter)LAPORTE: (laughter) And -- and tell me a little bit more about the -- the job
you have. Uh, you said it was, uh, a sheet metal B.HOWARD: Yeah, it was basically the same as a structural assembler when I was at Lockheed.
00:42:00LAPORTE: Mm-hmm.
HOWARD: You put the skin on the -- put little racks in, uh -- uh, it was a
different kind of a -- and it was all mod work, modification work, where they're working on the whole C-129, and the -- I believe that's the – passenger plane was C-121, I believe, was the number of it.LAPORTE: And the -- these aircraft, uh, were they, uh, being supplied to the --
uh, to the Air Force, to the Navy, to the Army Air Corps, Marines?HOWARD: Uh, it was not -- there were -- most of them Air Force, and some of
them, they were making -- there was 120 -- uh, the passenger planes, they were making them for the Generals in the Air Force, and making nice cabins, and 00:43:00installing furniture and stuff in them. Actually like a flying office.LAPORTE: Mm-hmm, good. And so you joined the union there, again, uh, you had
been a member of the Machinists Local 709 at Lockheed. Now, you joined a union at Hayes Aircraft and again, it was a Machinists Local lodge?HOWARD: Right.
LAPORTE: And, uh, so, tell us about how that came about. Uh, did you sign a
card, uh, upon hire? Did you have to wait the 90 days probationary period?HOWARD: No. No, I signed the card the day I walked in the gate. In fact, I
asked them for it, they didn't ask me, I asked them.LAPORTE: Mm-hmm. And, uh, how was that -- uh, that local run? Did you have
experience in attending local union meetings, and did they have a -- a steward system? Uh, how did they organize the -- 00:44:00HOWARD: They had a steward system set up just like the Machinists do everywhere.
LAPORTE: Mm-hmm.
HOWARD: And -- and I didn't attend the -- but a couple of meetings because I
live far away, and my -- my shift wouldn't allow me to --LAPORTE: Mm-hmm. And were you working, uh, the night shift again?
HOWARD: Yeah, it was night shifts again.
LAPORTE: Mm-hmm. So, did they have three shifts, Doyle? Or was it a 12-hour
shift? How did they --HOWARD: They had three shifts, three eight-hour shifts, but very few on the --
specialties on the midnight, but the evening, day and evening is about -- the majority of the workers there.LAPORTE: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And -- and how long did you spend there at Hayes
Aircraft in Birmingham?HOWARD: Right at two years.
LAPORTE: Good, and so two years at Birmingham. And in those two years, um,
how's the filling station doing, how's the grocery store doing, how's the farm doing?HOWARD: So, rented the farm out, sold the business, and lost a few dollars in
00:45:00it, (laughter) got out of it.LAPORTE: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And now, your family is growing, you -- you had one
child at that point?HOWARD: Well, she was born --
LAPORTE: Mm-hmm.
HOWARD: -- right after I went to work at Hayes Aircraft in '62.
LAPORTE: Mm-hmm. So--
HOWARD: Sixty-three, I'm wrong.
LAPORTE: Right. So, um, so you had a little girl?
HOWARD: Yes.
LAPORTE: And, uh, you took another job, um, where -- where was your next position?
HOWARD: You talk about the -- after Hayes?
LAPORTE: Yes.
HOWARD: Uh, I came over -- my daddy had moved to Georgia, he's living in
Marietta, uh, there was a rumor we was going to have layoffs at Hayes, in fact, two weeks I was supposed to have been laid off. But they hadn't notified me, 00:46:00you know how you learn stuff through the grapevine. And of course, a lot of times, there's rumors, more rumors than truth, but on -- we came over, it was my mother's birthday in April, and to visit family, the whole family got together. And my brother, well, he -- no, he hadn't [inaudible], but he told me they were hiring. I -- I said, "Well, looks like I'm going to be laid off at Hayes, I think I'll stay over one more night, and go see if I can go back to work for them." I done lost my seniority then. So, Monday morning, uh, I got up and went back over there, and they wanted me to go to work that day -- or the next day, I said, "No, I've got to go back and give my two week's 00:47:00notice." So, after, I went back to work over there and never did give the notice. They gave me a notice they was going to lay me off. So, the following Monday, after I got laid off on Friday, I went back to work at Lockheed, in 1963. And, about May or June, somewhere along there.LAPORTE: And -- and did you relocate your family as well --
HOWARD: Yes.
LAPORTE: -- from Alabama to Marietta, Georgia?
HOWARD: Yes. I -- I bought a house up in Albertville, and put my furniture in
there, and spent the night in there. Moved back to Marietta.LAPORTE: Mm-hmm. Huh. And the brother-in-law and sister who you had boarded
with when you first worked at Lockheed, uh, did he continue throughout this time?HOWARD: No, he was already been laid off, and he never went back, he went to
work for Sun Electric Company.LAPORTE: Mm-hmm, I see.
00:48:00HOWARD: They didn't have a union, he told me how bad it was down there, too.
He told me how sorry he was he didn't join the first day he went over there.LAPORTE: So, experience is often the best teacher --
HOWARD: Absolutely.
LAPORTE: -- and -- and he -- he got that real-life experience, and the
difference between working at a facility that had a union, and protected worker's rights, and one that didn't.HOWARD: Absolutely. And the only reason he didn't join a union the first time
was on account of the money, it wasn't on account he didn't believe in them. He's just too tight to pay the dues.LAPORTE: Aha, yeah. Uh, so, back you are in Georgia at Lockheed. And, uh, what
position were you hired in on in 1963?HOWARD: I was hired back in as a detail assembler. That was, actually, lower
than a -- a [inaudible] installer, lower pay scale, pay grade. 00:49:00LAPORTE: And were the aircraft the same, or had they introduced new aircraft by 1963?
HOWARD: Well, I came back to work on the C-130 mod program. You remember back
in the Cold War Era -- time, when they shut that C-130 down and caused all of that [inaudible], I worked on that airplane. They cut a -- we would cut a hole in the bottom of the thing, and they put that 16 inch camera down in there, installed it, and that was the one that was shot down, they only made four of them.LAPORTE: And so, it was the C-130, was --
HOWARD: It was what they called the H model, then. That one H, they had the A,
B, C, and I forgot what the camera [inaudible]. 00:50:00LAPORTE: Yeah, yeah. Uh, one of the planes, at one point, was referred to as a U2.
HOWARD: Oh, that was our reconnaissance plane.
LAPORTE: Yes.
HOWARD: But this was a C-130. Prior to the -- Gary Powers being shot down. And
I was wrong, I worked on it the first time, instead of the second time. I came back to work on the C-130, anyway.LAPORTE: But you -- you say you installed?
HOWARD: Well, we didn't install the camera, we'd put the structure, cut the
hole, and framed it up around it, so to speak, to hold the camera. The – but, uh, the installers, they installed it. But I worked, when I came back, this was before I left Lockheed the first time, it's -- I worked up on the mezzanine building up, little panels, and, uh, I had a real experience up there with the union, too. And that's where I learned -- see, I never been involved as 00:51:00anything in the union, except a member, went to the meetings every first Saturday. But when I came back, I was up on the mezzanine, where they built up the landing gear for the C-130, built up wiring panels, wiring harnesses, and assemble that stuff, and then carry it down on the assembly line, and it put it on -- and that was called, uh, detail assembler. Made a little panel that the back had wiring on it, with the hydraulic part of it, too. And this was -- was -- this was -- I found out what the fighting machinists was all about on that job on the mezzanine. I was working the afternoon shifts, and I needed a -- my little girl had been sick a whole lot, I needed to be on the day shift. So, one 00:52:00night my supervisor, Mr. Ward, came down and said, "Doyle," he said, uh -- or, D.W., you didn't have a name over there, you had the initials, because it had a big ol' round back. So, he says, "I got an opening on the day shift for a semi-installer." And down from where I was at, uh, in the same department, but another job area. He said, "I'd like for you to, uh, take that job, you're a good worker, want -- " Well, I was saying yes the whole time because I needed the promotion. And they, uh, had a seniority system that's a little bit different than what I was used to, later on at Georgia Power. So, one of the -- I got to come in and report to work Monday morning, my neighbor, Sheridan Newman, was the shop steward. And I rode -- I was riding to 00:53:00work with Mr. Newman, and he's an older man than I was. So, when I got to work that Monday morning, there's about -- I got accosted by about four union brothers. I didn't deserve that job, I wasn't supposed to have it. I said, "Well, they asked me, uh, and I took the job." I had a -- to get promoted there, you had to put in a referral card. I -- I had experience, I had the referral card. I said, "But if y'all want the job," they said, "We don't want it, but he's -- the other fellow sitting over there, he's supposed to got it, he had seniority on you." I said, "Well, you gotta do what you gotta do." Well, boy, it was a -- all close together, there was a fuss all day long. And that afternoon, Mr. Newman told me, he said, "Look, my 00:54:00son's offered that job, and he turned it down, you was next to get it." I said, "Well, if I ain't supposed to have it, I -- I don't want it." I said, "Because I believe in seniority, I believe it's the bedrock." Well, the fuss went on for about a week and a half, the company just told them file grievances. And somehow, I don't know, and I never will know, I stayed on the job. Less than three months later, the [inaudible] is such a ruckus, that I guess they figured they can get me away from -- and of course, I -- I -- I offered, I even told the company if this other man's job, give it to him, because I don't want to go through this. And they put me off over there in the, um, uh, store room. They loaned me out. It was dusting off shelves, and 00:55:00storing parts, and doing stuff like that. And about two weeks later, they come and told me it's -- "We're going to have to surplus you," that means you're going to be laid off if they can't find a place to go in the plant. Well, at the end of the day, I found out there's some jobs down on the line, but to roll somebody, you had to have two years seniority, but if there's an opening, you just go to it. So, two weeks later, I was down there on the -- that's when I first went to work on the center section of the C-130.LAPORTE: And was that as a detail assembler, or --
HOWARD: No, that was a --
LAPORTE: -- assembly installer.
HOWARD: -- assembly installer. It was the same classification I had.
LAPORTE: Yes.
HOWARD: See, there wasn't nowhere I could rollback, even up there on that
00:56:00job. So, I went down, and -- and that was a union feud that caused all of that. So, anyhow, I went down there, and I wound up, uh -- and in a short while, I got promoted to, an E&E installer, and electrical, electronics installer. That was put in wires, the wiring, putting the electronic components in. So, doing everything except checking it out. And what I did, I drive to work too, for a while now. But that was when I first got my real taste of being a union man, was being in the leadership position.LAPORTE: And -- and what was that, Doyle? You -- you said that, uh, were you
elected was a steward, did you have a -- 00:57:00HOWARD: Yes, I was a -- a -- I was on the evening shift, and they elected me as
a plant steward. And, uh, old Fuzz Allison, who was the steward, but he had been -- I understand he'd been out sick, or they wanted to get rid of him -- they had elections every year, I can't remember which it was, but anyhow, I was elected shop steward. And the shop steward had, uh, one, or two, or sometimes three committeemen under him. And they had a deal where the shop steward got the last hour of the shift off to take care of union business, and any other necessary time. I really had fun with that any other necessary time too, later on. But anyway, the -- my first grievance, and they didn't do it like those electricians do, the shop steward went in and presented the grievance. They had 00:58:00a three-step grievance. The first step was the plant manager, the next one was -- was with a -- or, not a plant manager, the department man. And the next one was with a -- was the union rep and the, uh, laborer -- no, personnel, I don't know what's the complete difference. Personnel. And then the third step was with a -- um, was with a labor relations, and [inaudible] from the union was there. And Old Fuzz got the -- he called in and gave them what's called a -- I 00:59:00believe it's -- their steps of grievance was a verbal warning, but he got the next step, which was a written reminder, I believe, is what they called it. And the third one would be a boom sheet. They had progressive discipline, didn't have that so-called positive juice. So, he had steps to go through that's --LAPORTE: Well, what was the boom sheet?
HOWARD: The boom sheet was an employee performance notice, that was a -- you
got a verbal, then a written. The employee performance notice. And old Allison, I think I got the employment. It was the boom -- what we called the boom sheet. The old -- and so, uh, them people they did -- you learned to be a shop steward right quick. You had to have formal training in all the field. And in fact, I don't think I ever had any tools. I put one on, used it [inaudible]. But 01:00:00anyway, I -- I was going, had a meeting set up with Mr. Dorley, he was -- came down from up North, from Detroit or something, and everybody -- you know how people were about the [inaudible], they were scared of old Dorley. They all gathered around, and I went in to see Mr. Dorley about -- I had a -- well, I had set up the grievance meeting for Fuzz. So, I went in and laid the law down to Dorley about -- told him how they was mistreating him, and how he could remove in. And he sat somewhere with his hands [inaudible] kind of piss me off, even -- and he said -- he sat there, he said, "Are you through." I said, "Yeah, I don't know what else to tell you, or I'd tell you." He said, "Let me tell you something, you just made a damn ass out of yourself." I said, "You 01:01:00know, nobody calls me an ass." He says, "Well, I'll change it, I don't want to insult you." He said, "You should've found out the facts about this grievance before you come in and jumped up my ass." He said, "Mr. Allison signed this thing and agreed with me and said it ain't the first time he'd laid out drunk, he said he'd been out -- he said, if you check the record," he said, "I'm going to forget everything you said to me." He said, "But next time you come in here, I'm going to throw your ass out of my office, I'm not going to listen to your raising hell with me about something that you don't know nothing about." So, I learned a valuable lesson. From then on, I didn't take no member's word for nothing.LAPORTE: (laughter) That was a valuable lesson.
HOWARD: It sure was.
LAPORTE: Yes, sir. And so, we are going to, uh, well [cut in recording] -- so,
you went in, and told Mr. Dorley what for, and how to. And unbeknownst to you, 01:02:00that old Fuzz Allison had already signed an agreement that he had laid out and was drink?HOWARD: Yeah.
LAPORTE: (laughter) And so, every grievance meeting you ever had after that,
you had it well-researched, all of the facts, and you verified anything that a member you were representing told you.HOWARD: Absolutely.
LAPORTE: So, you had, uh -- you were now, um, active in the union, elected as a
job steward. Uh, you were an E&E installer, you had experience with hydraulics. So, your job skills were -- were broadening, were increasing --HOWARD: Right.
LAPORTE: -- at Lockheed. And did that give you greater job security? Uh, did
01:03:00the fact you were a steward give you more job security?HOWARD: Yeah, the steward, and I never did -- did take advantage of it, but if
you were the steward or the committeeman, you had top seniority in the department. But I never -- uh, I got surplus one time, and I wouldn't use it. Luckily, though, I didn't go out the door, they caught me going downstairs, and put me in another department. At least they liked my work, so if they didn't like me as a shop steward, they made sure I stayed at the company. But I could've stayed, but I didn't want to use that part of it, because I thought that was unfair.LAPORTE: Doyle, you'd mentioned, uh, on several occasions, uh, that, uh,
supervisors at Lockheed, in particular, liked your work, referred to you as a good worker, uh, made accommodations to keep you there in different departments. 01:04:00Do you think that the work ethic that you, uh, demonstrated at Lockheed was developed early on, working with 11 brothers and sisters on your father's farm?HOWARD: Absolutely. Because we competed with each other on everything, who
could pick the most cotton, plow the most rows of corn and cotton, anything we went at, we competed in it.LAPORTE: And can you reflect on the necessity on a farm of getting certain
things done, or if they weren't done, there would be a calamity.HOWARD: Absolutely, if you didn't get the cotton out of the field, where it
rained on it and beat into the ground, you couldn't -- couldn't pick it or -- it was just burned, the samples, you wouldn't get much out of the cotton itself, and the -- the weather and the conditions had a whole lot to getting it done in a hurry. 01:05:00LAPORTE: And the feeding, and -- and treating of animals that you were either
using to get work done, or to produce, uh, for market. The importance of getting things done on time, and making sure that -- that they were taken care of, was that part of your duties or responsibilities?HOWARD: Absolutely. Uh, you come in from a field after dark -- I never forget
one time coming in after dark to feed the mules, and you had to go in that old corn crib, and that's down on the floor, picked up a black snake with an ear of corn. So, yeah, you -- you had to make sure the mules were fed and watered, when in fact, we always accused Daddy of taking better care of the mules and the cows than he did us. In the summertime -- or, I mean, when he's plowing mules, they got an hour off for lunch to eat, and when you wasn't plowing the mules, you got to eat your lunch, and go right back to the field picking cotton, you didn't get an hour. So, we'd always kid him, tell him that the -- he thought 01:06:00more of them to give them an hour off for lunch.LAPORTE: (laughs) And that -- that work ethic in -- instilled in you at a very
young age, uh, carried over, in terms of accepting whatever job assignments came your way, and making sure that things got done, and got done right.HOWARD: Absolutely, that's cured over this -- you done it right -- you -- you
didn't do it, you did it right, and you did it on time.LAPORTE: Mm-hmm.
HOWARD: Because that was a rule at our house.
LAPORTE: Mm-hmm, OK. So now, uh, it is later in 1963, uh, you are increasing
your job skills, you're a job steward, uh, things were going your way at -- at Lockheed?HOWARD: Yes.
01:07:00LAPORTE: And, uh, was there overtime available at that point? Were the demands
for the products at Lockheed increasing?HOWARD: Oh yes. You worked Saturday and Sunday all you wanted to there for a
while, especially if they had a crisis like they did in Lebanon, need the aircraft. You know, they'd call on you all the time to work that overtime.LAPORTE: And perhaps, uh, aircraft needed for the Berlin Airlift?
HOWARD: Oh yeah, that was going on during that second round with them. Uh,
Lebanon crisis happened for the bombers back in my first time with them, but yes.LAPORTE: And so, how long did you stay there at Lockheed? Did you plan to make
a career there at -- at Lockheed?HOWARD: Yes, I did, at that time. Of course, you know, it always loomed in the
back of mind, those layoffs coming. And the -- of course, like I say, I got elected to delegates, to the state AFL-CIO convention while I was still there, 01:08:00and went to my first arbitration case, got more education there than by the unions than any time in my whole life, was on that job at Lockheed.LAPORTE: And do you remember, uh, the AFL-CIO convention? Who was the officers then?
HOWARD: Yeah, when I went down there, Mr. Moore and, uh -- who was Mr.
Moore's assistant? J.W. Giles wasn't -- yes, it was J.W. Giles. So, J.W., uh, ran for Mr. Moore's job, and took on Tate, I can't think of Tate's first name, and that's when Herb run with Mr. Moore, then I was a delegate to 01:09:00that convention with the Machinists.LAPORTE: Mm-hmm, and when you say Herb, you're describing --
HOWARD: Herb Mabry.
LAPORTE: Herb Mabry, right.
HOWARD: Yeah, absolutely.
LAPORTE: Mm-hmm, yes. Uh, and -- and where was that convention held, again?
HOWARD: Savannah, I believe.
LAPORTE: In Savannah, mm-hmm, OK.
HOWARD: I'd have to look.
LAPORTE: Yeah. Right, and then you said you went to your first arbitration.
Now, did Lockheed and the Machinists have a permanent arbitrator, or was one selected from an FMCS list?HOWARD: They were selected from the FCS list. Um --
LAPORTE: OK.
HOWARD: Yeah, they had -- the first one was over, uh, cutting off of park, man
got fired in my department, I was shop steward, and he got laid off, he didn't get fired, he got laid off, because he refused to cut a -- a little CAD-plated 01:10:00spacer that went in the front of the -- on the C-5, it was one of -- the C-5A, where the ramp went down -- they had meetings with every one of them and told them, said, if you -- you cannot cut a part off without the engineer's disposition. And they said, no kind of part, no kind -- no, uh -- they called that MSP -- uh, small stuff, it's -- wasn't the engineer. So, Edmonds, boy -- I've been the shop steward, the department manager had me, uh, sit in on all of the meetings. Well, he was on vacation -- the next week's department manager was -- and I was sitting over there on my bench doing my union business the last hour. This Edmonds -- and a fellow came up to me and told me he'd 01:11:00just been suspended for, uh, refusing to cut a part. Well, going back to my experience, is he telling me the truth? (laughter) I said, "Well, let me check it out and see." So, Harold Chambers was the department manager's assistant. I went over there and I asked him. I said, uh, "Was Edmunds really suspended for refusing to cut off that part?" He said, uh, "He sure was." I said, "Well, you know you shouldn't be doing that. Hey, the man done told you that he -- y'all told him not to cut it." And I said, "I'm there. I was there, they told you not to alter anything." He said, "Well, when we give him an order, we mean for him to follow the order." I said, "Well, the fact is, didn't he tell you if you sign a statement that you give him that order, 01:12:00he'd cut it off?" You wouldn't do it, and he wouldn't cut it off. He said, "You're right." And so, they were -- we fought back and forth about it, a couple of days, and then carried it all the way through the grievance procedure. And I'd never been to arbitration, I'd never -- I was scared, I didn't want to get up there in front of that arbitrator, and, uh, I'd never been a public speaker to start with. After I heard all of the company's stories they told about it, and how they changed the whole thing, I couldn't wait to get on that witness stand and tell the truth of what happened in that -- of course, he won the case easy. Which you never think a company carried a case like that, but --LAPORTE: So, the union prevailed in the arbitration?
HOWARD: Yeah, absolutely.
01:13:00LAPORTE: Uh, the suspension was found for --
HOWARD: His record was completely cleared, he was paid for the five days
suspension, and --LAPORTE: Mm-hmm, and do you remember the arbitrator, Doyle?
HOWARD: No, I can't even remember his name. I remember that -- most of them,
but that one I've forgot. I guess I was too stage fright when we got over.LAPORTE: It was in 1963?
HOWARD: Well, it was later than '63, it was up in -- right before I left, it
was about '65, '66, somewhere along there.LAPORTE: So, it could've been Sherman Dallas.
HOWARD: It could've been, it could very well have been.
LAPORTE: Uh -- uh, arbitrator -- member of the National Academy of Arbitrators,
and a professor at Georgia Tech.HOWARD: Oh, OK.
LAPORTE: Yeah. But, well, I -- I don't know if it was him or not, but, uh, he
-- he would've been of that era.HOWARD: Yes.
01:14:00LAPORTE: Yeah, mm-hmm. And so, um, you were, uh, now, uh, testifying in
arbitration hearings, you were, uh, sitting in on meetings with management, and that they wanted you to hear everything that was going on, so that there wouldn't be any questions.HOWARD: Right.
LAPORTE: And did you consider that a -- a sound management practice?
HOWARD: Well, I -- yes, I really did, because that was showing that it was not
-- hiding to do anything, if you did it upfront, you going to be just --LAPORTE: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And, uh, do you recall some of those, uh, managers who
you respected, and worked well with, uh, at that time, when you were job steward?HOWARD: Oh, sure, R.V. Hayes, L.M. Hercy, and my favorite department manager,
01:15:00fired me about three times, or said he was going to, uh, Southern -- see, what was -- Al Southern was his name. And that, it was quite a coincidence. We had -- over that same arbitration case, Bud Bowen was the president of 709 at the time. Well, he wrote a letter, they had a big sign over there in the corner about a mistake covered up may cost a brave crew their life, and he writes a letter to the, uh -- to me, to the department, and told me to post it on the union bulletin board. And that's before we got to arbitration with the case. And he said, uh -- so, I posted it on the union bulletin board. Well, the manager prior to Al Southern, I didn't get along with him. In fact, he cussed me, and I 01:16:00cussed him, ah, called [the chops?] talk back in them days. But he got run off on account of another concerned woman and a grievance. But anyway -- no, she never did grieve. They went to the president of the company, and the company shipped him out. But anyway, Al came out there and read on that bulletin board, what Bud -- and he said, "You're the shop steward, you go over there, and that's not permitted on that bulletin board, you take it off." I said, "I'm not going to take it off, Al." He said, "You will, too." He said, "I'm giving you a direct order." And you know, that's a firing offense to give a direct order and --. And I said, "Well, let me give you one, you didn't give a direct order, you go to hell, I ain't taking -- " He said, "Come on into the office." He said, "Let me talk to you." He said, "I'm going to call Labor Relations, I'm going to fire you." I said, 01:17:00"No, you ain't going to fire me." I said, "Just think." He said, "Well, anyhow, let's go talk." So, we went and sat down in his office, and he's a decent guy. He said, uh, "What's it going to take for you to take that letter off that board?" Of course, uh, everybody done gathered around when me and him go out there [inaudible]. I said, "For Bud Bowen to--" and this was right at election time, too, when I made this [inaudible]. He said, uh, "What is -- you take that down?" I said, "For Bud Bowen to call me and tell me to come over here and tell me." Anyhow, he instructed me. He said, "Well, he's not your boss." I said, "But he's the leader of this union, and that bulletin board out there, he instructed me to put it on there." And he said, "Well, I respect that." He said, "Well, call him." I said, "You don't want to do that, Al." They had 10 business reps at that time, four on the -- uh, grievance committee, and I don't know all of 01:18:00them were up for election or reelection. And I called him, and he wasn't five minutes to the union hall. It was longer than that, little over 15[inaudible], and it come right at break time. And then, of course, Labor Relations is there, and everybody's there, and my rep was Gerald Brown. And they go out there, the company was, they going to take it off the bulletin board themselves. So, he backs up to the bulletin board and tells them, rolled up, makes a fist, and tells them what he's going for the first one of them to touch it. So, they go back in the office, but I didn't get to go in the offices with Bud and them on the second trip. And somehow they come to agreement that, uh -- that he'd take 01:19:00it down. And I said, "Well, what happens when I put it back up?" They took it down all day, and I put it back up all day. Well, but there were 15 union reps, all total over there.LAPORTE: Whose bulletin board was it?
HOWARD: It was the company's bulletin board.
LAPORTE: It was the company's bulletin board!
HOWARD: Right! And they -- they told you what you could put on and what you
couldn't. And that was one of the things that we -- we questioned the -- their right to make us take it down.LAPORTE: Where --
HOWARD: They took it down, but we put it back all day. They never did know who
put it back.LAPORTE: (laughter) The union, uh, could've established its own bulletin
board and put up whatever it wanted on that bulletin board.HOWARD: Yeah.
LAPORTE: But if it was the company's bulletin board, that would make it interesting.
HOWARD: Well, it was the company's union bulletin board, they agreed that it
was the union's bulletin board, but the -- I don't know why they agreed to take it down. But it was not the company's regular bulletin board. It was that 01:20:00union bulletin board that the company furnished.LAPORTE: Right -- that if it was designated as the union's bulletin board,
then, you know, the National Labor Relations Board would rule that it was the right of the union to communicate with their members.HOWARD: Right.
LAPORTE: Uh, and the company should not interfere with union communications to
its represented employees. So, uh, I -- I think that Doyle Howard had a point! (laughter) About who knows what else --HOWARD: And by the way, he bet me $20, he fired me, too.
LAPORTE: (laughter)
HOWARD: He paid the $20, too.
LAPORTE: (laughter) Good for you. Uh, so, um, you -- you were able to, um, find
your way out of that situation with Mr. Southern, and that was only one of the 01:21:00three times that he tried to fire you?HOWARD: Yeah, one time, he gave me a direct order to turn a man's tools in,
and I refused to go put them in, and he called Labor Relations to me then. And same ruling, that he couldn't -- what happened, we had turned the tools in, it was in the contract, those tools were charged out to the employee, and the employee was, uh, responsible for them tools, if they was out on long-term, or they wasn't going to be there on a certain day, them tools have -- they belonged to the Air Force -- had to turn them in. And the shop steward was the one who was entrusted to do the job. He said I took -- took too long to turn the tools in. And I probably did, but I had a lot of other things to do. (laughter) So, he told the supervisor, made the supervisor carry it down there, and told me I was going to go turn them in. Well, when I get to the tool room, they won't 01:22:00take them. So, he gives me a direct order to go down there and -- and turn them in. I said, "No you -- he carried them down there, he'll turn them in, I ain't turning them in." So, he found out he couldn't make me turn the tools in.LAPORTE: Mm-hmm. And do you think that Mr. Southern, uh, ever complied with the
direct order that you gave him?HOWARD: No, he never did do that. (laughter)
LAPORTE: I see, all right. Well, that we know of, right?
HOWARD: I wasn't -- I wasn't allowed to know. (laughter)
LAPORTE: (laughter) So, uh, you had planned on continuing your career --
HOWARD: Right.
LAPORTE: -- at Lockheed. Um, and yet, how long did you stay at -- at Lockheed?
When did you leave Lockheed?HOWARD: I left Lockheed in -- let's see, it's 1971. Another one of them adventures.
01:23:00LAPORTE: Uh-huh. And so, at that time, did you have, uh, eight years seniority?
HOWARD: Yes, sir.
LAPORTE: Had eight years seniority. And what was your job title at that point?
HOWARD: Still E&E installer.
LAPORTE: Mm-hmm. And still a job steward?
HOWARD: Yes.
LAPORTE: And were you -- you had said you were a plant -- plant steward? Or did
you remain a department --HOWARD: I was a department steward. I get mixed up with the power company, too. (laughter)
LAPORTE: Um-hmm. Yeah. So, you were, uh, 1971, eight years seniority, uh, E&E
installer, and you had successfully bid on the day shift?HOWARD: Right.
LAPORTE: Yeah.
HOWARD: I got on the day shift.
LAPORTE: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And so, when -- orders still coming in? Were there
plenty of work at --HOWARD: No, they started to -- a big rumor of a big layoff, and it did come,
but I probably had enough time to survive it, because I had a -- my committeeman was a – he and his brother had a bunch of land up near Adairsville in Floyd 01:24:00County, but it's right across Bartow county line. And they were talking about building a golf course. And, uh, him being one of my closest friends, that's another bad mistake, dont never go in business with a friend. But they talked me into -- right before I thought I was going to get laid off -- and so they talked me into going up there, and we actually built the golf course, opened it, and I ran it for two years. Or, worked on it two years, didn't run it for six months.LAPORTE: Uh, well, tell me about that. Was it a big piece of land? And did you
say it was Adairsville?HOWARD: Well, it's out on Highway 140, it's in Floyd County, out in the country.
LAPORTE: And what was the name of the course?
HOWARD: Ridge Daly.
LAPORTE: And does it exist today?
01:25:00HOWARD: No, it doesn't exist. They build a Lowe's, uh, distribution center there.
LAPORTE: All right. So, Doyle Howard, the golf course designer, golf course
entrepreneur, tell us, uh, please, how you got lured into this golf course venture.HOWARD: Well, thought I was going to get laid off, and, uh, they agreed that I
would have to put no money -- uh, put no money down in it. And after we paid the indebtedness, and signed the paper that, uh, it'd become third owners of the thing, outright. So, Sam [Gooden?] [inaudible] being laid off, and I already had a s-- son then -- see, Keith was born in '67, so, I thought it was a good 01:26:00deal. But it wasn't, it was -- well, uh, I did, uh, have a lot of fun running it. I was supposed to be the greens superintendent, that was my title.LAPORTE: Well, often referred to as the greenskeeper --
HOWARD: Yeah, it was what --
LAPORTE: And the new title as the golf course superintendent.
HOWARD: Oh yeah. But, uh, really, you're a grass cutter, and a -- especially
with the small outfit, and especially if it's huge, did more of the manual work than you have to.LAPORTE: So, it was an 18-hole course?
HOWARD: No, it was only a nine-hole.
LAPORTE: Nine-hole. And it was a daily fee course?
HOWARD: Yeah. Of course, they already had a membership plus daily fee.
LAPORTE: Mm-hmm.
HOWARD: And a nice, uh, clubhouse, and it was a first-class thing.
01:27:00LAPORTE: And, a -- a restaurant, a bar, and --
HOWARD: No, just had a -- a small restaurant, there wasn't much to it. Snack
bar, really, more than anything.LAPORTE: And you weren't able to attract the US Open, or the PGA, or --
HOWARD: No, you wasn't -- no, you wouldn't (laughter) you were lucky to get
Saturday duffers. And by the way, I didn't hit a golf ball the whole two years I was up there.LAPORTE: So, you, uh, again, uh, set out as -- as a businessman, as an
entrepreneur like the filling station, and the grocery store previously, in Alabama.HOWARD: Right.
LAPORTE: Now, you were, uh, in -- into the golf course business?
HOWARD: Right.
LAPORTE: And, uh, pray tell, uh, did you remain in -- in Marietta, your family
stay there? 01:28:00HOWARD: No, I -- I moved up in Floyd County, in Rome. And then built a house
over in Adairsville.LAPORTE: So, you're building up your statewide presence in Georgia.
HOWARD: Right.
LAPORTE: Yeah. And so, two years, uh, 1971 through 1973?
HOWARD: Right.
LAPORTE: And then what -- what happened, um, did the golf course go under, or
did you sell it?HOWARD: No, it didn't -- it didn't go under. What happened, the -- the --
me and my good friend had disagreements. He wanted me to do all of the work, and he had a problem I didn't know exist, he drank the whole time. And he'd run people off. And, uh, of course, uh, I -- I just got enough of it, but his brother wanted it, the land belong to -- had a heart attack, and he needed the 01:29:00property. And in fact, I gave my notice, I went out there and told him I was leaving, and they could just have my share. It wasn't -- [inaudible] on the pavement of the -- nothing I couldn't -- couldn't deal with it no more.LAPORTE: Mm-hmm.
HOWARD: And he very much stayed and told me, "Look, Bill won't be there in
a year." Less than three months later, he died of a heart attack. So, his widow bought Bill's part out, he actually put money in it, and he left, I ran the golf course for the last year that I was there. Or, right at a year. And his son was actually the overseer over his daddy's part of the business, it was become a half-nine then. He wouldn't do nothing, he said he wouldn't -- the 01:30:00business was going to -- no, the business was going up, we were beginning to hold a lot more since Bill was out of it, but he wasn't -- well, see, I kept the books, I knew that he wasn't going -- he said until the land was paid for, and he didn't say that -- it said the equipment, and the -- the business, not the land, the land was -- still belonged to them. So, he wouldn't pay me, so I just -- I had a boy -- [inaudible] a handling guy from Georgia Power was working on my golf carts, and I told him I was hunting jobs. In fact, we were having a big tournament that weekend, and I asked -- he -- I said, "You know where I can find a job?" He said, "Yeah, go--" he goes, "Hire down at Plant Bowen, and go over to Georgia Power and see about a job." So, I went over the 01:31:00next weekend after the tournament, put in an application at Georgia Power, and give her, his widow, a two weeks' notice.LAPORTE: So, somebody from Georgia Power was working on the golf carts?
HOWARD: Yeah.
LAPORTE: And --
HOWARD: His supervisor was at Plant Hammond. He was moonlighting.
LAPORTE: Yeah.
HOWARD: Or the foreman.
LAPORTE: Do you remember what kind of golf carts they were?
HOWARD: Yeah, they was motorized golf carts.
LAPORTE: OK, so they were --
HOWARD: Cushmans.
LAPORTE: And so -- OK, but they -- they weren't electric carts?
HOWARD: No, they weren't electric carts.
LAPORTE: OK. Cushman -- no, so they were gas, yeah.
HOWARD: I think Cushman, they were gas anyway.
LAPORTE: Yeah, yeah, OK. Uh, and -- and so, uh, you got a tip? You got a tip
from someone that, uh, they were hiring over at Plant Bowen, and you should go apply for a job over there at Georgia Power? 01:32:00HOWARD: Yeah, Wes Edmunds was the man that, uh, recommended to go over there.
He had been an old shop steward in the eighty-four -- uh, it's all wrong. You know, the Local 84 --LAPORTE: Right.
HOWARD: -- was seven different locals.
LAPORTE: So, this was up in -- in Floyd County?
HOWARD: Yeah, right.
LAPORTE: Uh, Rome, Georgia. And Wes Edmunds. Now, is Wes Edmunds, uh, a name
that lived in infamy at the Georgia Power Company, because he was responsible for referring you to apply for a job at Georgia Power?HOWARD: No, the -- the two that lives in infamy is Wayne Buckingham and Cam
Daniels, just -- well, both of them are dead now. You know, they argued in arbitration which one of them hired me. 01:33:00LAPORTE: (laughter) All right. Uh, and were they under oath?
HOWARD: No.
LAPORTE: No?
HOWARD: Oh yeah, uh, in arbitration, they were under oath, yes.
LAPORTE: Uh-huh, all right. Uh, and so, you went over to -- uh, where did --
where did you go, uh, Doyle, in -- in 1973? You left the golf course, uh, did you go to Georgia Power headquarters to apply for a job? Did you go to Plant Bowen?HOWARD: Went to Plant Bowen.
LAPORTE: Uh-huh, all right. And -- and where exactly was Plant Bowen located?
HOWARD: It's in Bartow County, out in a settlement called Euharlee, Georgia.
But I think their address is Taylorsville.LAPORTE: Yeah. So, it was in proximity to where you had built your house?
HOWARD: Well, it was 20-something miles over there --
LAPORTE: Yeah.
HOWARD: -- from Adairsville.
LAPORTE: OK. And what did you apply for? What kind of job?
HOWARD: Anything they had open.
LAPORTE: Mm-hmm.
01:34:00HOWARD: It was, uh, called cold-handing labor, when they hired in there.
LAPORTE: OK, and how old were you at this point?
HOWARD: I believe I was 37 years old. Well, let's see, I already figured that
out. Yes, 37.LAPORTE: Yeah. Uh, and your family, you -- you had a son, and a daughter, uh,
any other children at that point?HOWARD: About five or six foster kids.
LAPORTE: Mm-hmm.
HOWARD: You know, we -- me and my wife, foster -- kept -- we had 125 foster
kids all told, about six at a time, about the most we had at one time.LAPORTE: Mm-hmm, OK. So, my point is that -- that you had responsibilities?
HOWARD: Absolutely!
LAPORTE: Yeah, yeah.
HOWARD: More than I ever had in my life.
LAPORTE: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And -- and how -- uh, were -- did you, uh, handle, uh,
01:35:00going from the golf course superintendent, uh, to being the cold-handling laborer at Plant Bowen?HOWARD: What do you mean how?
LAPORTE: Uh, well, was it a big adjustment in your life from being the one who
-- who gave instructions as to how to cut the grass at the golf course, how to treat the greens, uh, to being a -- a laborer, um, under the direction of a foreman, a supervisor, uh -- and just physically. Um, 37 -- uh, and -- and was the job, uh, a physically demanding job?HOWARD: Absolutely.
LAPORTE: Yeah.
HOWARD: Shoveling coal, throwing it up on a belt line, and sweeping floors,
cleaning bathrooms.LAPORTE: Mm-hmm.
HOWARD: It didn't phase me, I mean, I used to work in -- and I knew that work
was going to stop at anyways, just on the way to another job.LAPORTE: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And -- and, um, you were able to get the job, and they
01:36:00-- they were hiring, they were looking for people, Mr. Edmunds', uh, advice, uh, turned out to be correct?HOWARD: Yes.
LAPORTE: And were you hired on right away, or did you have to wait for a
period, or did you have to go through a physical examination?HOWARD: Oh, I had to go take a physical, but within two weeks, I was at work at
the power company.LAPORTE: Mm-hmm. From the time you applied, two weeks later, you were on the job?
HOWARD: Right.
LAPORTE: All right. Well, tell me about that -- that job, was it, uh, 20 --
20-mile commute from your house?HOWARD: Right.
LAPORTE: Yeah. And then, uh, was it on the day shift?
HOWARD: It was on the day shift, yes.
LAPORTE: Mm-hmm, OK. And tell me about that job.
HOWARD: Well, the main thing you did, you -- put the coal back on the belt as
its thrown off. You know, mainly, that's what I did. And it'd pile up under the belt line, choke it down, and you'd have to keep it cleaned out from under 01:37:00the waster off, uh, keep it clean the best you could. Of course, that thing run -- and they only had two units, too, when I hired in to Plant Bowen, and eventually, it became four. But you had to -- and that's the main part of it. And of course, they had what's called the tripper floor, sometimes, it'd be -- it'd run over up on the top, you'd have to go up in the coal dust, and scoop it up, and throw it over in a -- the -- the big chutes, or they called them bunkers, put the coal in the bunkers. So, that's mainly what I did the whole time I was there.LAPORTE: Mm-hmm, so it was a coal-fired, uh, power plant?
HOWARD: Right.
LAPORTE: And it generated electricity at Plant Bowen that fed into the Georgia
power grid?HOWARD: Yes, sir.
LAPORTE: That provided, uh, electrical power throughout north Georgia?
HOWARD: You're right.
LAPORTE: And how many people worked there?
01:38:00HOWARD: There were 300-something at the peak of it.
LAPORTE: And what were the jobs there? Was --
HOWARD: Well, the -- the union-covered jobs were in coal handling, and they had
three class cases there, and labor, coal equipment operator, and tractor locomotive operator. The locomotives jobs went away, they don't have them anymore, but the tractor -- inside the power plant, they had electricians, mechanics, apprentice mechanics, apprentice electricians, storekeepers, and then the operating department had, uh -- uh, auxiliary equipment operators, and assisted the BTOs, and then the border turbine operators which -- since, the border turbine operators been discontinued, now it's just two classifications. 01:39:00LAPORTE: And the, uh, power plant was supplied with coal that -- it came in on
long trains?HOWARD: Right.
LAPORTE: And --
HOWARD: And that was another job we had, they had a trestle that drive across,
and they had switches, and then they automatically dump that stuff down that trestle into the feeders that fed it back into the plant. They could send it straight to the plant, or send it to the stockyard, where they had a big coal pile at. And as a laborer, you just go out there and go take a hammer, and beat on them doors in the wintertime to get to, uh -- although I didn't stay in there the winter, I got promoted before then. But, they had a -- you have to go out there and override the switch to get them moving. And sometimes, you'd 01:40:00have to even punch in the cars to get the coal to go out of them.LAPORTE: Yeah. So, you -- you came on the job, and you were a coal-handling
laborer. And you've described the tasks there. Uh, how long was it, uh, that you were on the job that you joined the union?HOWARD: Let's see, I was there about four and a half, five months, they
wouldn't even give me a card to join, Phil.LAPORTE: (laughter) Boy, that's -- that's --
HOWARD: In fact, I went to the union hall, I'm living in Rome, and I have --
or, Adairsville, and I have to go downtown to Clyde Connor, and get a card to sign up. And I had executive board member who worked at Plant Yates. I got promoted after eight weeks to -- I was there as an equipment operator, he said, "No, you don't join this union until six months." So, see, they had six 01:41:00months probation.LAPORTE: Hmm. And -- and you were, uh, an equipment operator? You were promoted --
HOWARD: Uh, promoted from an auxiliary to -- after eight weeks to, uh,
auxiliary equipment operator, at -- at Plant Yates.LAPORTE: And what kind of equipment did you get to operate?
HOWARD: You -- you looked after the equipment, you operated the ash handling
equipment, and of course, all of the -- down there, they had them old -- didn't even have a screen, so the leaves come in the plant, and you shut them down and clean out the trash out of the screens, and the pumps. They got smarter later on and kept it from coming in. It never did at the old plant, it was one of the -- shut it down, they'd still cleaned it. Of course, you kept all of 01:42:00the equipment, you pulled [inaudible] hoppers. You had wet ash, you had fly, what's called fly, it's dry. And they sold that off to the cement pump companies.LAPORTE: Mm-hmm. And, uh, how far, uh, did you have to travel, now? Uh, you
went from Plant Bowen to Plant --HOWARD: Yates.
LAPORTE: Plant Yates.
HOWARD: It was about 50 miles, or a little better.
LAPORTE: So, you more than doubled your commute?
HOWARD: Oh yeah, three times.
LAPORTE: Yeah. Hmm. And, uh --
HOWARD: [inaudible]
LAPORTE: Was -- was the, uh, promotion -- did they make it worth your while for
the --HOWARD: Oh yeah, it was -- it was about $4 an hour more than -- even at them rates.
01:43:00LAPORTE: So, you rose fast in this organization you hired into, Georgia Power.
Eight weeks, you got a promotion?HOWARD: Right. And by the way, they were hiring when I, uh, came on board,
there's some people already there that telling me, yeah, they're going to be gone the next week. They all got promoted -- there's eight of us at one time, at Plant Bowen [inaudible] coal, but my buddies that are supposed to hire me, they come back to me, wanted to know if I knew anybody else in my age who wanted a job at Georgia Power Company. So, they decided they'd rather hire older people.LAPORTE: And so, they demonstrated -- you demonstrated, uh, maturity,
reliability, uh --HOWARD: Yeah, came to work, worked all overtime, and you know overtime's
always been a big issue with them. In fact, I doubled 10 straight days after I became operator --[inaudible] equipment auxiliary. 01:44:00LAPORTE: So, you were working 16-hour days --
HOWARD: Yeah.
LAPORTE: -- for 10 straight?
HOWARD: Yeah, that made up for the pay cut I took going over there.
LAPORTE: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And, uh, how long did you stay at -- at Plant Yates, Doyle?
HOWARD: I stayed there about three and a half months, and you can get a lateral
transfer -- or, I don't know whether you call it lateral -- but you can be out on the job at the other plant, and I moved out here to the old Atkinson-McDonough plant -- McDonough. I stayed there, however it was, two and a half months at Yates, and I stayed three and a half months down there before I got back to Bowen.LAPORTE: OK, and when you returned to Plant Bowen, what job position did you hold?
HOWARD: I was -- back as an auxiliary equipment operator, it was same
01:45:00classification, just got home. And I'd already moved to Cartersville then.LAPORTE: So, you saved a lot on gas?
HOWARD: Yeah.
LAPORTE: Yeah. OK.
HOWARD: No, I hadn't moved to Cartersville then, I was still in Adairsville,
because I drove from the -- Adairsville to [inaudible] and back, it was closer than Yates.LAPORTE: Right. All right, so you're back, uh, auxiliary equipment operator,
uh, at Plant Bowen. Um, so, closer to home, you know, you took the transfer, got the new position, got the promotion, and then came back closer to home?HOWARD: Yeah, I had to file a grievance to get back home, though.
LAPORTE: Uh-huh?
HOWARD: What happened, they didn't have it in the contract, but they had a
side letter that you could have two laterals, if it was to man a new plant. And three and four was considered a new plant, and I came plant on manning three and four. So, they told me I hear[inaudible] back, I said, I didn't get the job, I 01:46:00couldn't go home. And so, amazingly, I found a shop steward, and set up a grievance meeting, and that is one of the funnest things I ever -- wasn't funny at the time, but that old plant manager set up the meeting on Monday morning, I'm on the midnight shift, and he said, "So, he's walking up and down the hall out there," and old Dave Woods was the shop steward, and I said, "Dave, is he going to come in here, or is he going to parade around up and down the halls all morning?" I said, "I've got kids I carry to school, and I ain't going to get there. They don't even care." And he said, "Well, he'll be in here in a minute." I said, "Yeah, he's going to be in here in a minute," I went out there and got him. He said, "Oh, I forgot." So, I -- I told him what the grievance was, never did anything with the grievance. He 01:47:00said, "Well, you want to tell me all of this stuff, Georgia Power is [inaudible]." "Mr. Pollack, can you s-- send me back to Plant Bowen, like, this side letter I'm showing you says?" He said, "No, I can't." I said, "You wasted my time, you walked up and down the hall for two hours, now you can't -- you can't send me back, better with you if we just kill the grievance until [inaudible] next time?" He said, "Fine." Of course, he couldn't keep me from it. So, I left there, and carried it over to work [inaudible] counter, and took 10 days to get me back home.LAPORTE: And the --
HOWARD: Then they paid me for my mileage and stuff, for holding me there.
LAPORTE: Mm-hmm. And so, the notion is that if it is a new facility, then, uh,
the staffing is necessary to get that new facility up and running with it -- 01:48:00experienced personnel.HOWARD: Right.
LAPORTE: And so, the value of that experienced personnel, uh, is to the
advantage of the company in getting that new facility up and running.HOWARD: Right.
LAPORTE: And two brand new units at Plant Bowen were viewed by the union as new plants.
HOWARD: Right.
LAPORTE: And that was agreed to at -- at the second step of the grievance
procedure, or the third step?HOWARD: Never did go to second, because he just made a phone call and got it
straightened out.LAPORTE: So, your perception and persistence allowed you to exercise your right
to bid on that job, to take the lateral transfer, and get back to Plant Bowen.HOWARD: That's correct.
LAPORTE: And so, did that establish Doyle Howard as -- as someone to be
reckoned with? As someone who knew how to read a contract, interpret it, and 01:49:00apply it correctly?HOWARD: Yeah, I -- I suppose that was a -- the beginning of the end.
LAPORTE: Or was that the beginning of your activist --
HOWARD: It was, it really was the beginning, because there were three -- five
more people involved in that, and then they insisted I have a coup and take the shop steward's job.LAPORTE: (laughter) And -- and -- and Dave, uh, had no problem with that, or
was Dave --HOWARD: No, Dave was -- he was down here in actually in McDonough -- what
happened --LAPORTE: Yeah?
HOWARD: -- up at Plant Bowen, they, uh, all decided they wanted me. Of course,
being an auxiliary equipment operator -- if the shop steward decides to step down, they put so much pressure on him, he was -- he didn't get nothing done. As you know, the IBEW don't elect shop stewards, they appoint them -- the 01:50:00business manager does. So, they got on him, he told them he'd give it up when they elected somebody. He got somebody to hold the elections. And, uh, so, they put a two weeks' notice, I guess, to have a campaign. And I told them I didn't want the job. And I had -- we had all of them foster kids, and had two of our own, that they could get somebody else. But I don't know if Richard remembers, Joe Fowler, he said "Hell no, there ain't nobody that going to have it but you." He kept going on, and I said, "OK, but I'm not going to politic for it. If y'all want me, elect me." So, he started to work on the job. I said, "But until somebody else learns how to do it," because undoubtedly Mr. Brown didn't know how to do it, or didn't care or wouldn't 01:51:00do it. So, I said that's how – I inherited the job, I was drafted. So, I -- (laughter) because the campaign started, one of the -- there were three of them running it, or two -- three of us running. And as you know, the general election, so we don't have no rules. So, both -- one of them came to me and said, "Look, you're just an auxiliary equipment operator, you can't be the shop steward." I said, "Hell, I didn't see no qualifications of the shop steward." He said, "Well, I want you to drop out." He said, "I can't be [inaudible] with you in there, because if he's a tail kisser and he'll win, then -- so, if you get out of it --" And I said, "Well, I ain't going to get out, I promised Fowler, and Baker, and the other group that I'd run." I said, "But if you win, that's fine, ain't no problem. I ain't going to ask you to get out." And then the very same shift, my [inaudible] came to me and wanted me to get out so he could get the other. And I was auxiliary, I 01:52:00didn't have no right to be the shop steward. Of course, needless to say, they didn't get about three or four votes, I got the rest of the 200-something. The last few.LAPORTE: (laughter) Well, that's a pretty good margin, Doyle!
HOWARD: Yeah, I wish they all were like that. (laughter)
LAPORTE: Yeah. Doyle, um, we are, uh, going to put a bookmark in it right
there. (BREAK IN AUDIO) So, in 1974, you were back at Plant Bowen, you had bid, you got the lateral transfer, and you had been, uh, selected, virtually by acclamation to be the job steward at Plant Bowen.HOWARD: Right.
LAPORTE: And the -- do you recall some of the first cases that you had as a job
steward there? 01:53:00HOWARD: Yeah, one of the very first ones, uh -- had three young men refused to
work overtime on a Saturday afternoon. That one of them, uh, hash pits had slagged over. And the -- the three people was Don Lenem, uh, Joe Fowler, and William Baker. Uh, and so, uh, I -- I -- I actually agreed to stay over and work that Saturday afternoon, and so, they refused, I -- I don't -- no, let them they refused that day, and they refused [inaudible]. Anyhow, uh, they sent Lenem home, and the next morning, when he come in, they terminated his employment for refusing to work overtime. And Baker and Fowler's, uh, was a -- happened right 01:54:00at the same time -- anyhow. They could get somebody to work in their place, so they just laid them off, two weeks, give them two weeks' layoff notice. And, uh, of course, right off the bat, we filed a grievance, and, uh, that's the first big case. Now, we had a case, uh, I guess I'll talk about it a little bit, too. It was a case that wasn't as serious as that, but, uh, when I file this, I went over to the plant, talked to the plant manager out in the hall, he said -- uh, he was Cam Daniel, he said, "Yeah, we'll have a grievance meeting right now, Doyle." So, we go into his office. This is the very first grievance. And he says, "We'll go in the offices, come on." So, we went in 01:55:00there, and I told him -- I can't even remember exactly what the detail is, it wasn't a real major case, but it's somebody that -- I think I got slighted on overtime list. And so, he heard the grievance. He said, "I'm denying the grievance." We didn't [inaudible] in step one, but they had to give you an answer, and no they didn't. At that time, didn't even give you that, they just verbally told you they turned it down. I said, "OK, if you turned it down, Cam, I'll carry it to the -- uh, step two," which we had two steps in the ladder with the vice president, then the senior vice president with Labor Relations. So, he said, "Well, carry it where you damn please, I don't care." I said, "Fine." About three days -- no, about a week later, I made 01:56:00-- going toward Plant Bowen, and he said -- asked me, he said, "Did you file that grievance?" I said, "What do you think that meeting was about the other day, Cam?" He said, "Well, I just got my tail chewed out." He said, "You sent it to Atlanta, and you didn't tell me." I said, "Well, I told you I was carrying it to the next step, that's all I had to do." He said, "Well, Mr. Brown always told me where he was going." I said, "Well, excuse me, I'm not Mr. Brown. I -- I go by the procedures." He said, "Well, what the hell do you want?" He said, "Come to my office." So, we would go to his office. He said, "I'll tell you what, I've goofed up so bad, I'm just going to grant the grievance, I ain't going to Atlanta and talking about that." So then, we had a good relationship, he'd jump up and down, and cuss, and raise hell, but it was all more show, and it was -- trying to scare you. So, 01:57:00then the Lenem, and Baker, and Fowler case came right after that. And of course, they -- they said they had a right to tell them to work. And of course, basically, I think they did, but we didn't -- we said they didn't have it. And besides, one of them was a kid. The Lenem case was that he wasn't a low man, and the contract plainly said the low man got the overtime. Or if anybody was -- had to work, they -- or, it was their rules, it wasn't even in the contract, it just said, overtime would be divided equal. It didn't say, but the rules that we had with them, and agreed to was low man if anybody worked, it'd be the low man. And most times, well, they weren't so much overtime then. So, anyway, we drug it out through the grievance procedure, and got all 01:58:00the way to Atlanta, and in the meantime, I got promoted to assistant BTO, and after -- well, after step one, I got promoted to, uh, assistant BTO at Plant Mitchell down in Albany, Georgia. And so, I got a change to take one of them lateral transfers on unit 5 or 6 at Yates, stayed down there, I think, eight weeks. Came back to Yates, and then got a boiler turbine operator job, another promotion up at Harllee Branch. Got a transfer to Jack-Mac [McDonough Atkinson Plant in McDonough] from there, and then one of those -- from there, to Harllee Branch as a boiler turbine operator. And that's when the grievance process to the second step, and, well, we went to the second step. And then, the men down 01:59:00there, thought I had no right to take off to go to a grievance meeting -- of course, it's in the contract in black and white -- in Atlanta. And boy, even some of the fellow men said that wasn't right. Somebody had to work, but I was in training, it didn't matter. But they done everything in the world to keep me from coming. In fact, they refused to pay my wages for the lost time going to the grievance. And then, of course, they sure did get upset when I took two days off to go to arbitration when the case was heard here in Atlanta. And [Arabin?] Clark was there, the law firm that represented them. And I think Mr. Cates was the arbitrator that heard that case. And it lasted four days. Yes -- yes, four 02:00:00days. Two days before Christmas, and then right after Christmas, we come back for two more. I stayed on the witness stand four hours the first time, and four hours the second time. [phone ringing – break in audio]LAPORTE: Well, Doyle, you must've had an awful lot to testify about if you
were on the witness stand for a total of eight hours over this one grievance.HOWARD: Well, you have to understand Georgia Power's philosophy. They put a
lot of stuff in that case that had nothing to do with it, but you still had to sit there and explain it. And really, what they got upset with me about, in -- and Bill McCue, who actually was our attorney, and you remember Tom Adair?LAPORTE: Mm-hmm.
HOWARD: He was actually serving as the union's arbitrator, that's kind of
02:01:00an odd twist. But he questioned the witnesses, and of course, come -- uh, they used Arabin Clark at that time, and the -- they were already in trouble with the company, they was about to get rid of them, and I ran -- he wanted to put on a bigger show, I didn't know at the time, Arabin -- but anyway, my testimony was actually the key the whole time, because I was working. They tried to say that, well, uh, he was a low man, and -- and of course, I -- I was there, I knew that Barnett was actually lower, it wasn't Lenem. And of course, the other two, they just left their part out because they just refused to work, but didn't get as deep as the Lenem case. But the funniest part of it -- well, you know, they liked to badger witnesses, uh -- uh, I don't know whether you ever dealt 02:02:00with them or not, worse than the others. So, and my testimony, of course, it was real good, I had two days between the time I had to get back -- when it adjourned, I was on the witness stand when we left, and so, one of the -- the main thing they were upset about was they said that [Pop Werner?] worked that Saturday night, and had to -- had to make him work in Lenem's place. Well, Pop Werner didn't work, I was there. But he's one of them that's always putting down time he didn't work, and how do I know he didn't put something down? So, most of the time, I answered a question with a question, that pissed them off, too. So, they just -- wanted to know if I knew for sure Lenem didn't 02:03:00work -- I mean, uh, Pop Werner didn't work. I said, "I'm not sure he didn't work, but he did not work on that job, uh -- uh, that I worked on, that they fired Lenem for not working on." He said -- and he kept on just hammering, and -- so, Tom Adair said, "Mr. Arbitrator, I think you need to stop badgering the witness." He said, "He ought to-- he told him he didn't work, he was on that job. You won't even tell him whether he worked in Tennessee or Siberia." Cause [inaudible] that was a big thing, and we spent 30 minutes arguing whether I had to answer the question. And finally the arbitrator said, "Look, he's answered every question you ever ask him." But, you know, they had -- the longest background. The only thing that worried me -- I got to back off of the witness stand, but we got the transcript of the 02:04:00testimony, and -- but I thought I was telling the truth, but I was mistaken about the -- I -- any place I'd ever worked, that you had to work overtime. I didn't -- I didn't know the case, I didn't think. Because when I read it, the case -- there's one over at Lockheed, and I remember the lady, but I didn't remember the exact case, I just knew they had a case, I didn't know the case, because I wasn't an officer of the union. And but, sure they're going to bring it up the next time. So, I already had a defense for -- I was a different department, different section, I -- he didn't believe any of the events, asked me about the second hearing. Of course, they hounded me about 02:05:00everything else. They thought if you get tired, you just -- I guess, like a crim-- criminal investigation, you give up.LAPORTE: Hmm. So, this was prior to the power company, uh, securing Troutman
Sanders --HOWARD: Right.
LAPORTE: -- as their counsel.
HOWARD: Right.
LAPORTE: So, Fred Ellerby --
HOWARD: Yeah.
LAPORTE: Yeah.
HOWARD: That's his last case.
LAPORTE: It was his last case?
HOWARD: Yeah.
LAPORTE: Ah.
HOWARD: He lost it big time, so the -- they brought Sanders and Troutman in.
LAPORTE: Right, right, yeah. The governor's law firm.
HOWARD: You're right.
LAPORTE: Yeah.
HOWARD: Ex-governor Sanders.
LAPORTE: Yeah, Carl Sanders.
HOWARD: Yeah.
LAPORTE: That's right, yeah. Uh, so, uh, you had -- uh, a win in that case,
and you proved to be a reliable witness at the arbitration hearing.HOWARD: Right.
LAPORTE: And, um, it was Adair, Scanlon, and McCugh, uh, that law firm that was
representing IBEW 84 at the time?HOWARD: That's correct, yes.
LAPORTE: Mm-hmm. And then of course, uh, that law firm, uh, hired, uh, a lawyer
02:06:00by the name of Michael Walls, and another lawyer by the name of Don Livingston.HOWARD: Right.
LAPORTE: And then, uh, in future years, uh, it became, uh, Mike Walls who was
the attorney that represented IBEW 84 -- is that correct?HOWARD: That's correct.
LAPORTE: Mm-hmm. So, back to Doyle Howard's career, uh, you are, um,
acquiring seniority with the Georgia Power Company, uh, you are enjoying some promotions, uh, your work activity with the union is picking up, uh, what's the next step? Uh, did you remain at Plant Bowen for a long time, Doyle --HOWARD: Well --
LAPORTE: -- or did you have another assignment?
HOWARD: I stayed on, probably, about another year until I was elected to the --
or appointed, at that time, by the existing executive board in 1976. And I 02:07:00served on an executive board as recording secretary. I couldn't read, I couldn't write, I couldn't spell, but I was a recorder.LAPORTE: And so, that meant, uh, that you were present at all union meetings --
HOWARD: Right.
LAPORTE: -- and responsible for the minutes, and correspondence?
HOWARD: Correct.
LAPORTE: What -- uh, and who was the business manager at that point?
HOWARD: Clyde J. Connor.
LAPORTE: And you had previously, uh, encountered, uh, Mr. Connor when you had
first begun with Georgia Power?HOWARD: Right, when I filed my first grievance. In fact, I went to his office
and got the application to join the union. 02:08:00LAPORTE: And so, you were known to Mr. Connor, and, uh, he had enough
confidence in you to appoint you to be the recording secretary for the local?HOWARD: He recommended me, and the e-board appointed me to fill the -- uh, an
unexpired term of -- I can't even think of the man's name, now. He was working down at the nuclear plant, and took a salaried job.LAPORTE: And so, what did -- what did you learn now that you were there on the
podium, and you were taking the minutes, and you were participating in all of the union meetings?HOWARD: Well, I -- I learned that, uh, what was going on around the rest of the
state, and a lot of the union's policies I didn't know as a shop steward, and learned more about -- uh, the whole union -- uh, the -- from the international down, or up. 02:09:00LAPORTE: And what did you learn about the scope of the union, in terms of the
coverage of IBEW 84? Uh, did it go for -- in different sections, did it take a statewide approach? What was the jurisdiction of IBEW 84?HOWARD: Eighty-four was now -- covered the whole state. They were -- prior to
1960 -- no, '79, there were seven locals. One located in Rome, Columbus, Augusta, uh, Valdosta, Athens, and I think I got them all. But, yeah, there was seven locals, and the international, uh, Clyde became business manager and finance secretary. His second term, they, uh -- uh, merged it into one local 02:10:00that covered the whole state. Because there was a great disadvantage of having seven different locals, even though you were dealing with the same company, you had to -- one thing happened in Rome, one thing happened in -- in fact, one of the main things that really helped when they merged it uh -- none of the seven locals had ever arbitrated one single case. And you know how many that have been arbitrated in the whole state of Georgia prior to that? Before Clyde putting all of the locals together? There were four cases that -- that we could find that had ever been arbitrated. And that same arbitration case had been validated, uh, dozens of times even since then. Outside Atlanta, man, Atlanta, they went back. 02:11:00So, the rules were different for all seven different locals. And you know how politics plays.LAPORTE: Mm-hmm.
HOWARD: And of course, I -- the membership didn't like it, or the leadership
of the other locals didn't like it, because they were put in the Atlanta local. Atlanta only covered, uh, about three counties in north Georgia hydros. All -- it was -- and, uh, the Valdosta group was bought from Florida Power and Light Company.LAPORTE: So, there were a lot of union officials who held positions in those
seven local unions that suddenly were no longer union officials?HOWARD: That's right. And that's the hardest thing Clyde Connor had to deal with.
LAPORTE: Mm-hmm. And -- and what was the impetus behind that? Was it from the
international, that they wanted it consolidated, or was it an internal decision 02:12:00to get more consistency in the administration of the contract?HOWARD: It was international's idea, the -- because it did cause so much
trouble, the membership were getting a little bit more educated, and they didn't like Atlanta having it one way, and them having it another way with the same company.LAPORTE: Hm. OK. And then, uh, how did -- uh, the local union handle, uh,
getting information out, holding meetings, uh, administering grievances, uh, to go from seven individual locals to a statewide local, the responsibilities of those remaining union officers must've increased a great deal.HOWARD: Well, uh, see, the Local 84 didn't even have an assistant. They
immediately had to hire two full-time assistants and put them on. And basically, 02:13:00they setup a unit chairman concept with all of the other locals, and then later on expanded to twice that many units because there was so much driving distance from -- let's say Waycross to Valdosta. So, it was -- I was on the board when we, uh – or on the bylaws committee when we changed it to have, uh, instead of seven, we had 18 unions because we covered GTE, the General Telephone, the outside line construction, and a lot of the construction came out of the Local 74 and merged with them. Then we had, uh, five EMCs, and then we had some 02:14:00governmental workers. So, we wound up with 18 units around the state. And then the -- as a group, they had to add more assistants, and of course, the unit chairman conducted the meeting, and that's the one you communicated with, and sent all of the mail to and --LAPORTE: OK. And, uh, how long did you serve in that position as recording secretary?
HOWARD: Four years. Uh, won reelection and stayed until I went on staff with
Mr. Connor.LAPORTE: And was that in one of the full-time assistant positions?
HOWARD: Yes, it was.
LAPORTE: And did they -- were they called, um --
HOWARD: It was called assistant business manager.
LAPORTE: Assistant business manager, thank you. And were there, uh, two
02:15:00full-time positions as assistant business manager?HOWARD: There were. He had added two more.
LAPORTE: Two more?
HOWARD: He had a total of four.
LAPORTE: Mm-hmm.
HOWARD: He had two, and then he added -- when I came on board, the -- he had --
he more than left and then I replaced him, Cliff Collins.LAPORTE: And, uh, was your assignment with the Georgia Power Company, did that
remain at Plant Bowen?HOWARD: No, I took a leave of absence, what's called union leave of absence,
and it continued until -- uh, they built seniority right on, but if I got let go, or -- or decided to go back, I could go back, and pick up where I left off.LAPORTE: Mm-hmm, yes.
HOWARD: And maintain seniority.
LAPORTE: And -- and when did you take that leave?
HOWARD: Nineteen eighty.
02:16:00LAPORTE: So, that -- that's the -- you -- you began as assistant business
manager in 1980?HOWARD: Right, right.
LAPORTE: Yeah. And how long did you serve in that position?
HOWARD: Uh, almost three years.
LAPORTE: And how long did you serve in that position?
HOWARD: Almost three years. And he got defeated by J.W. Childs.
LAPORTE: In -- in 1983.
HOWARD: Right. That's where I really started to learn what a union job was.
LAPORTE: Yeah, as assistant business manager --
HOWARD: Yes.
LAPORTE: -- or after the election?
HOWARD: After -- both ways, assistant business manager is where you really got
your education.LAPORTE: And those three years, tell me about the duties you carried out, and
-- and how you acquired the union education you did?HOWARD: Well, the -- of course, by going to conventions, and workshops, and
02:17:00progress meetings, and the utility conferences, but the main part where you learn is actually by doing the job, filing grievances, uh, and processing them, and communicating with the members, and -- and giving the union report at the local meetings.LAPORTE: And did you learn both the specific workings of the various job
positions --HOWARD: Yes.
LAPORTE: -- that were represented by the union?
HOWARD: Yes.
LAPORTE: And so, when you had to present the grievance, you had to learn the
job --HOWARD: Right.
LAPORTE: -- to be able to speak about it with authority?
HOWARD: Oh yes, I even -- of course, after I got business manager, I had to
train myself a whole lot more. See, you had two from the line section, and two 02:18:00from the operating -- or, border turbine power plant section, they called the generation section. And of course, there's a little bit of a problem when you -- the line section don't want you handling their world, and I don't -- so, you had to learn that on your own, they didn't help you to learn it, because one of them planned on taking Connor's place when he left there. But I hadn't -- learned a lot of people in the line section, and in fact, Clyde sent me to a lot of places, because he told me I was his communication link. He said I had the skill, if there's a gentleman down there raising hell, to get right of the middle of it, instead of running from it. So, I did get a lot of training with the line section. And made a lot of friends over there, 'cause I done -- first time he asked me to serve, Phil, I wasn't going to have that job, 02:19:00either. And, uh, he'd asked me two years earlier would I consider, and I told him no, uh, I was happy where I was at, and of course, I got to go into more grievances, and got involved. Then I really wanted it, and I thought, well, I ain't never a job going to come open, he had a problem with one of his assistants, so I went to the e-board with it, and once [inaudible] over to the corner and asked me what -- he said, "I ain't going to ask you, but would you ever consider taking another?" I said, "Well, I felt like you was going to hire me when I got here today, Clyde. Yeah, I'll take the job, you don't even have to ask me." And, they all thought he was a hard man to work for, but he wasn't. He just wanted you to do your job, and he didn't want to have to tell you how to do it. He wanted you to take charge and do the job, 'cause -- because he knew you done knew as much about it as he did. 02:20:00LAPORTE: Mm-hmm. So, when -- when he said that you were his communication link,
and if there was a fuss, you had the ability to get in the middle of it, rather than run away from it. Do you think that your experience, uh, driving those mules served you in dealing with that situation?HOWARD: Probably so, because the membership's just as stubborn as them mules
were. I couldn't call them the same name I called them mules.LAPORTE: But you knew something had to get done --
HOWARD: Right.
LAPORTE: -- to resolve the situation?
HOWARD: Right.
LAPORTE: Yeah. Uh, and so, did it give you the occasion to travel all over the
state of Georgia?HOWARD: Yes, it did. I went to every union meeting in the state.
LAPORTE: And --
HOWARD: There were good union members in every corner of the state. You know,
it used to be, when I first went through with the company, and people south of Atlanta, they don't even know what a union is. Uh, everybody in Rome knows 02:21:00what a union was, but them people -- They were the same down there as they were in Rome, Georgia. They just didn't talk about it as much.LAPORTE: And what were some of the other differences that you noticed as you
got to travel, and -- and work with members throughout the state?HOWARD: The difference in -- the members, the way they felt?
LAPORTE: Mm-hmm.
HOWARD: They were the same, Phil.
LAPORTE: Mm-hmm.
HOWARD: They just didn't have nobody to express it to.
LAPORTE: Mm-hmm.
HOWARD: It was surprising to find out -- see, I -- when I went to Bowen, I'd
already been through the experience at Lockheed, and Hayes, and the bus company. And I got accused of being a union fanatic, in fact by [inaudible] later served as chairman up at Rome, told -- he tells me, he said, "I think -- I just think Doyle Howard was a fanatic, that's all it was, about unions." So, that's all the hell he ever talked about. But that's -- you lived it on the job. So, 02:22:00people didn't do that, uh, probably didn't even do it there. But, I found people, when you talked about union, felt the same way you did about it.LAPORTE: And so, they all wanted to be treated with respect on the job?
HOWARD: Right.
LAPORTE: They wanted to be safe on the job? They wanted to be treated fairly?
They wanted to earn a living and benefits to raise their families? Is that what the commonality you found?HOWARD: That's the commonality, the whole thing. And there was one other
element, they wanted to be informed about everything at one end on their Local 84, and they didn't feel like we was getting it.LAPORTE: Mm-hmm.
HOWARD: So, I was out there with them when I wasn't in that office telling
them about it. So, that was the reason why I gained enough knowledge, enough friends to get elected when the time comes. 02:23:00LAPORTE: And what was your sense of the percentage of workers that actually
joined the union, paid dues to the union, as opposed to, uh, the percentage that were free riders?HOWARD: When I went in, it run about 15%, 20. And they had a system of -- that
you had to pay your dues in cash, or initiation fee. So, we set out to change that, that kept a lot of people -- but actual free riders, we got it down to about 7%. And then they'd go up to -- according to what happened, it'd go 7 to 10, sometimes it got a little over 10. But most times, uh, if you sat down and talked to them –- over at Plant Bowen, there were two that you couldn't 02:24:00sign up for no -- Bowen and Hammond had three between those two plants, and probably no more in that line section. And there you had pockets, down here in Scherer, Harllee Branch, and Yates. Scherer and that nuclear plant down there were the least amount, percentage-wise. You just couldn't talk them into joining.LAPORTE: But you -- you saw a dramatic drop, uh, according to these figures,
uh, the drop was more than half, uh, reduced it to less than 10% of those that were freeriders, uh, that is, they take advantage of the union-negotiated wage, benefits, grievance procedure, and yet, pay no dues at all --HOWARD: Right.
LAPORTE: -- to the union, to pay for the cost of negotiating and -- and
administering a contract.HOWARD: That's correct.
02:25:00LAPORTE: Yeah. Uh, other -- um, issues, you're the assistant business
manager, you're traveling the state. Now, what about contract negotiations? Did you begin sitting in on contract negotiations in this period, as --HOWARD: I did sit in on them, but I -- I'd already been on the negotiating
committee, you know, we elect one from each two unions, not one union, to have about, uh, 12 -- the time you get to president, and the business manager, and a couple of assistants, you have about a 12-man committee. Of course, the companies really don't like that big a -- but it was in the contract, and they did everything they could to cut it down, but we never let them cut it down.LAPORTE: Mm-hmm. Yeah -- um, so were you the representative from Plant Bowen on
the negotiating committee? 02:26:00HOWARD: Yeah, when I was on the negotiating committee. And I was trying to
think what year that was. But I can't even remember, it was in the early '70s.LAPORTE: Yeah, and -- and then, you -- uh, were a member of the negotiating
committee as assistant business manager?HOWARD: I wasn't a member of the committee, but, uh, had assignment from
business manager. In fact, that contract we negotiated -- uh, it was 1980 when we struck. It's been 50 years since we had a strike, and that contract was [inaudible] on the committee rejected, and went on strike.LAPORTE: And what role did you play as assistant business manager, uh, for that
strike activity? Did you coordinate picket lines? Did you --HOWARD: Yes, coordinated picket lines, and kept up with all that was going on,
and visited all of the picket sites, made sure -- tried to make sure they were 02:27:00handled in an orderly manner to keep us out of trouble.LAPORTE: And what were the issues? Uh, no strike in 50 years, in 1980, we have
strike? What happened?HOWARD: Well, strike involved things nobody really knew, the committee didn't
even know. Uh, they had -- Clyde got in trouble with the membership, [inaudible]saying on there, they asked him what the big issues were, and he told me, really, some of them said the insurance, some of them said the, uh, working conditions. But no, it was just one of them deals that they just -- they actually had the best contract that -- that had ever been put on the table, the best contract that's ever been signed before or after then, and gains in the insurance. The -- they just -- uh, we always told the company, they was blamed for it, they told me, and on the lower level, they did, they told me they 02:28:00didn't have the guts to strike, they wouldn't do it. So, I had written some up, just got the idea -- they always accused others of voting it in, the power plants voted in. So, this time, they was going to both show them that they was going to vote it out, so they voted the contract down.LAPORTE: (laughter) And there was an annual increase, uh, to base wages, there
was a --HOWARD: An average of 10% for three years!
LAPORTE: (laughter)
HOWARD: Plus the benefits came. Oh, we didn't mourn it at all, but the
membership -- guess what, we went back to work for the same thing we went out for, too.LAPORTE: Mm-hmm. How long did the strike last?
HOWARD: Two weeks, 17 days. And we had some people fired over it, too.
LAPORTE: Mm-hmm. For n --
HOWARD: One of them for beating a lady's car with a picket sign, one for
02:29:00spitting on the supervisor, and one for chasing a -- oh, foreman down here in Atlanta with a gun, and shaking it at him. And two up at Harllee Branch for shooting a transformer. And I think that was all of them, there was a lot of suspensions. We could -- we want everyone on the job back, except the boy that loaned the gun to the -- to the -- uh, that shot the transformer, he went to the pen. And I'll never know the whole details of that one. Up here at Eatonton, shot it. He loaned him the gun, he didn't go shoot it. But he went to the pen, they got fired. 02:30:00LAPORTE: Hmm. Well, so that, uh, made for a little activity. And then, uh, 1983
was an election year?HOWARD: Yes.
LAPORTE: And -- and, uh, were you, uh, up for reelection as assistant business manager?
HOWARD: No.
LAPORTE: Or that's strictly an appointed position?
HOWARD: A strictly appointed position. But my job was on the line with
election, and of course, I went out and done everything I could to get the men reelected, but the strike and the mergers, he didn't want to strike, but he got blamed for it anyway. And because we didn't stand and get more money. And then he got blamed for the mergers of the seven locals. It's too much, he just couldn't overcome it.LAPORTE: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. So, J.W. Giles is elected as business manager?
HOWARD: Yes.
LAPORTE: All right, and you are not reappointed as assistant business --
HOWARD: I didn't seek to be, I knew J.W. before, and I didn't feel like my
work ethics and his would work together, and I couldn't work for him. And he 02:31:00didn't keep any of them, he got rid of -- hired all new assistants.LAPORTE: And so, what did, uh, Doyle Howard do?
HOWARD: I had a good – well, wait, during that time, uh, Clyde set up a
meeting with the company that I didn't know what it was about at all. And, uh, so we went over there and sat down, I thought it was fair will. Of course, I knew they was going to be happy to see me go in. But we got over there, and I under -- he didn't say it, but I felt he had a job already lined up with the company. And later, it proved correct. But when we got over there, they just talked to us. The four of us, his four assistants, Clyde, and thanked us for the way we conducted ourselves and all. And then, they told the others that was 02:32:00considering them for placement, in fact, Collins and Jack Holmes took a job, and so did Clyde. But old Pierce turned to me, he said, "Doyle, if you want something, you're going to have to ask for it." I said, "Well, let me tell you something, Mr. Head, I got a good boiler turbine operator job close to my home, and -- and I'd rather do that than the – than -- " He said, "In other words, you think you're coming back in three years." I said, "Hell yeah, you ain't saw the last of me, I'll be back." But he said, "Well, if you want one, you come see me." I said, "Nope, I won't be coming to see you."LAPORTE: So, you still had rights, seniority rights, with, uh, Georgia Power to
bid on, uh, a position you were qualified for?HOWARD: Right.
02:33:00LAPORTE: And you chose to do -- to do what, Doyle?
HOWARD: I choose to go back to Plant Bowen and be a boiler turbine operator.
And immediately, when I got -- walked back in there, that's the hardest walk I ever made in my life, from the parking lot, because you just have to know that radical group of workers over there, they blamed the leadership and everything. But one of my best friends said, "Doyle, I guess now you're sorry you went down there and worked for that Clyde Connor, ain't you?" I said, "Absolutely not, it was an honor and a privilege for me to work with him. Man had a lot of integrity. Done a lot more for you than you ever give him credit." I said, "No, I ain't a bit sorry." "Well, why did you go down there, then?" I said, "We was -- we tried to get you to run for business management." I said, "Because I didn't know the job, now I know the job, and I went down there and learned it. I can go back and run that local union now, represent you like you wanted." He said, "You know, I never thought about it that way." I said, "No, you didn't think about nothing, you just 02:34:00heard I -- I hate Clyde Connor." Of course, they used to -- when I was on the e-board, the shop stewards would go around and call me Clyde Connor's little boy. Of course, I tell them it was an honor. But it's things like, uh -- uh, we had a big deal one time over—this is how the membership is, it was about a -- a clause in the contract. They put all of the maintenance people on the work shift, on the weekends. And they never had to work weekends. Well, they was having to work every other one, then. This -- we just wasn't giving two out of seven in the boiler turbine department. Well, the company come back and talk to some members, and they said they needed maintenance on -- seven days a week, they did need -- but they didn't need a whole crew like, it's getting half of the people. So, they were guaranteed a four-day weekend, and this one time 02:35:00you were guaranteed you didn't have to work, if it's your four-day week, you get it off. And the company said, OK, we'll reduce it to have work every -- once every four weeks, if you'll, uh, give up that guaranteed four-day weekend when you had to work. And Clyde said, "No, they ain't going to do it." So, then, the word got out Clyde wouldn't let them go on the -- they didn't get out what's coming wanted in advance. So, there was a big uproar all over the state, and, uh, I had to go all over the state to tell them, look, this ain't so. But one of, uh, my committeemen up at Bowen, he was a -- a mechanic, and he wanted desperately to get off that weekend work. So, he tells me, he said, uh, 02:36:00what they tell me wasn't so, that old, uh, Clyde Connor just made that up. I said, "Look, I was there when it happened, and that's one time I was fixin' to get fired." I said -- I said, "Who told you that?" He said, "I don't have to tell you." Then he finally told me it was Bill Zachary. I said, "You mean to tell me you believe Bill Zachary before you believe Clyde Connor, or believe me?" He said, "You're right." I stared over the table, he's sitting at the table, to get him, and old Jack Gentry was a shift foreman, grabbed me by the collar, and pulled me back. He said, "Hey, don't get fired over something like that." But he was a former union member, and knew what was right anyway.LAPORTE: Mm-hmm. The -- the challenge it must have been to communicate through
02:37:00the entire state, particularly when you had built in seven unit leaders who used to be local union presidents, uh, who would hear things, interpret it differently, someone would get the wrong story. That had to be a monumental challenge for the local union to keep members informed of the correct information.HOWARD: And see, of course, you'd -- you'd have a 100 or 200 come to Rome
for the meeting, but, you know, we didn't even have a -- you just -- they had to pay long distance to even call the office.LAPORTE: (laughter) Yeah.
HOWARD: And so -- actually, when I got there, I found out how to use the
company phone system without a, uh --LAPORTE: Toll charge.
HOWARD: That's right. So, I started settling stuff over the telephone. I
remember one time, uh, the old vice president, Bill Winters, called me up and said -- well, Clyde called me in his offices, and he said, "Doyle," he said, "He can't settle no more grievances over the phone." I said, "Clyde it 02:38:00was just problems, it wasn't grievances." But the Labor Relations got wise to it. He said, "You're going to have to quit making settlements for Bill Winters." I said, "But it's our [inaudible]." He said, "Yeah, but I'm going to tell you it's not me, it's the company." So, within the 30 minutes, the phone ring, it's Bill Winters, and he said, "Doyle, I appreciate all you've done keeping me informed, and helping me to straighten stuff out," but he said, "Labor Relations ain't going to allow that, I can't do it no more." So, that's what was -- was the real problem with Georgia Power.LAPORTE: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
HOWARD: Yeah.
LAPORTE: Uh --
HOWARD: Protecting territory. But yeah, it was a problem, uh, communicating,
because -- well, them had went to the meeting, didn't go back and tell the truth what went on at the meeting, they just went back and cussed the union.LAPORTE: Mm. And how many members did Local 84 have at this time, 1983?
02:39:00HOWARD: Nineteen eighty-three, they had about -- a little over 5,000. Don't
remember exactly the number.LAPORTE: And how did the split go between the linemen and the generation?
HOWARD: Generation was, uh, a little bit larger, it was almost the same, but it
was a little bit.LAPORTE: The 3,000 to 2,000, or --
HOWARD: No, it wasn't over 400 or 500 different, maybe. Of course, the
linemen didn't claim Forest Park, we didn't claim them, so that it made the split a whole lot, uh -- really, closer with the line section than the power plant. The power plant, maybe, three -- 400 or 500 more. They actually had a list we started organizing, internally organizing. 02:40:00LAPORTE: Mm-hmm. So, over -- but over 2,000 in each --
HOWARD: Yes.
LAPORTE: -- group, yeah. So, uh, IBEW 84 would be a force statewide?
HOWARD: Right.
LAPORTE: And did you, at that time, uh, what was the position of Local 84, uh,
regarding your participation in, uh, politics, and, uh, campaigns? Anyone writing statewide would see a --HOWARD: Nearly nonexistent.
LAPORTE: Uh-huh.
HOWARD: Nearly nonexistent.
LAPORTE: Hmm, hmm.
HOWARD: In fact, we're never -- even all through my time, we didn't
participate like we all have, Phil.LAPORTE: Yeah.
HOWARD: Because you couldn't get the members to participate.
LAPORTE: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. So, reading some of the accounts of, uh, statewide
officials in Georgia during that time, in the early '80s, uh, they would 02:41:00almost, to a candidate, say that if they were going to be elected statewide, uh, that they would enlist the support of the communications workers, and the Machinists, because both of those organizations --HOWARD: Participate.
LAPORTE: -- would participate, and they had statewide standing.
HOWARD: Right.
LAPORTE: So, whatever county in the state, there was a telephone person, or
there was someone that was working and represented by the Machinists union.HOWARD: Right.
LAPORTE: Uh, but, it -- it just seemed su-- such a natural, Doyle, for -- for
5,000 members statewide, all of the units setup, that it would be a natural for Local 84 to be a real force in statewide politics.HOWARD: That's where we missed the boat, Phil.
LAPORTE: Mm-hmm.
HOWARD: That's absolutely where we missed it.
LAPORTE: Yeah.
HOWARD: You couldn't get them involved.
LAPORTE: Mm-hmm.
HOWARD: In fact, if you stood up and told them your belief, you'd get shouted
down at the meeting. 02:42:00LAPORTE: Hmm.
HOWARD: So, you had to go it alone.
LAPORTE: Yeah, mm-hmm. OK, so you're back at, uh, Plant Bowen, and were the
terms, uh, of election for the business manager three years?HOWARD: Yes.
LAPORTE: Yeah. Uh, and so, did you stay at Plant Bowen for all of those three
years, '83 to '86?HOWARD: Yes, I did.
LAPORTE: Mm-hmm. And you continued to serve as a steward there?
HOWARD: No, sir.
LAPORTE: No?
HOWARD: Uh --
LAPORTE: Because all of the stewards were appointed?
HOWARD: Yes, they were all appointed, uh --
LAPORTE: (laughter) Let me -- let me ask you this, Doyle Howard. Did you serve
as the shadow steward at Plant Bowen?HOWARD: Yes, I -- yes, I did. I -- I kept up with every move that was made,
every grievance. I had an insider.LAPORTE: You had, uh, both insight and an insider?
HOWARD: Yes, I did.
LAPORTE: Uh-huh. And that served you well, to keep you informed?
02:43:00HOWARD: Sure did.
LAPORTE: Mm-hmm.
HOWARD: I had the minutes from all over the state, I had, uh, an account of
every meeting that went on, clandestine, and wasn't clandestine. And, of course, uh, there wasn't -- there one of his staff that was doing it, it was some of the other shop stewards. We really had a deal that got me in trouble right to start with. And this friend of mine kept calling the office down there, and they wouldn't do nothing to assist, because they knew he was my friend. I said, "Well, you're asking the wrong question, Joe. What you need to do is say," I said, "I can get them on the phone for you," because J.W. was a big deal -- secretaries answering the phone were -- secretaries were my friend when I left there, they didn't want me to leave. So, I called the secretary, 02:44:00well, they just wanting to hammer -- something happened up there, and they couldn't get nothing done, one of his sisters was from Plant Bowen. Uh, a former friend of mine, and politics made him a non-friend, but, ah, I still get along with him. But anyway, so I said, did you ask -- did you -- "You did it the wrong way, don't tell them, Joe Fowler. Tell them you're the steward up here at Bowen." He said, "They don't answer then." I said, "Oh yeah, he's in the back pocket." I dialed the number and said, "Let me speak to him." It was on Sunday morning. No. He called him on Sunday morning, got his house phone number, and cussed him out. So, he wasn't -- he wouldn't answer when he called there. I said, "This is the steward at Plant Bowen, let me speak to J.W." "Well, he just called and said J.W. ain't in, he won't be in this week." So, I said, "This is the steward, let me speak to him." Uh, 02:45:00then -- then she didn't catch my voice out, she transferred the phone to him, I give old Joe the phone. And so, he got him anyway. But I gave him a miserable three years.LAPORTE: (laughter)
HOWARD: When he didn't do his job.
LAPORTE: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. And you had built credibility throughout
the state by traveling to all of those units, by explaining to them what the company policies were, and their rights under the contract, and I take it that -- that people remembered the level of service you provided them with, and that they could trust your word when you gave it to them for the three years you served as assistant business manager?HOWARD: Yes, that's correct. That's where my credibility all come from. I
go to the job, I go visit them on the job, and out in the field. And that's 02:46:00something I never had, oh, you could go to Plant Hammond's assistant business manager, he was -- he and them people that cussed Clyde Connor was my best friend, because they knew that I was going to look after their best interest. But yeah, that's how I built it. Is, Phil, barely used -- you know, he worked for J.W., I hired him, and he didn't have to go back to the plant. He used to tell the international -- sometimes, they liked to see me go too. He'd tell them all the time, he got a network over there, you can't break it up. You can get him beaten in an election. Of course, I was beatable, and it did happen to me.LAPORTE: So, the next election was scheduled for 1986?
HOWARD: Eighty-six, yes.
LAPORTE: Yes. And what -- what happened in -- in the election in 1986 for
business manager? 02:47:00HOWARD: There were four of us running, uh, J.W., myself, Mabry, uh, Ken Herb,
and, uh, Dale [Nokelvy?] were -- and you don't have to have the majority votes to win the election, you just have to have one more vote than the next vote-getter to win the election. Well, that's always in favor of the business manager. If he's right there and done his -- his j-- job, you got three more, they just split the -- the vote up, and he'd slide right in there. And, oh, they thought that was, uh, the -- the best thing in the world. Uh, he -- he – when he was business manager he wanted to change the bylaws to say you had to have a, uh, majority, uh, or, you'd have a runoff. And, uh, when it came to Rome to vote on, I -- I got up and talked to the kids and told them how much it cost the local union, everything right there. Well, then they're meeting about 02:48:00that meeting, of course -- Phil told me all of this later -- they said, that's just really surprising, because the business manager -- I said, "Yeah, but that -- what they didn't know, that was going to work against them." They were going to split -- I had my people out there that I was sure would vote for me. And anyhow, as the campaign went on, uh, I -- I started, the first meeting was at Columbus, Georgia. And, uh, old -- uh, Roddy Buford and a couple of Clyde's [inaudible] [runners?] was on the e-board, and Clyde was on the -- I mean, this -- there's two of his assistants there, and two of the e-board members. And he come to the nomination for the business manager, and the room was full, they had about 40 or 50 people -- that's about as big as it got at 02:49:00Columbus, because there wasn't – nothing but hydros down there, and that was a good turnout for them. May have been 50. I had five people trying to nominate me for business manager. And they all applauded when I got nominated. So, old Buford goes back and calls Phil Gurley on the phone, and he says, "This is the first nom-- nomination," you know, you had to go to all 18. He said, "Look," he said, uh, "If y'all ain't got your tools greased up ready to go back to work, you better get them ready, Doyle Howard's going to beat you, going to clean your clock. And it look like it going to take us with you." He said, uh, that guy had a big huddle the next morning, and he said -- old Dennis Westbrook, my friend that jumped the fence, went to the other side, 02:50:00he said, uh, "Hell no, we ain't -- can't let him win." Said, uh, "We ain't going to be the flash in the pan one-termer." And he said, "Well, you better get out and get to campaigning." And it went that way all around the state. And in fact, they talked us into -- or, talked the chairman into delaying the meeting down at -- uh, for certain people to get to the meeting at Valdosta, and the men -- the men who waited on the main one to get there, he nominated me for business manager, and didn't even nominate J.W.LAPORTE: So, what was --
HOWARD: And I beat all four of them.
LAPORTE: Mm-hmm. And you beat him, uh, with a plurality of the vote?
HOWARD: Yes.
LAPORTE: Mm-hmm. And how close was it, Doyle?
HOWARD: Between me and J.W.? I beat him about two to one.
LAPORTE: Two to one?
HOWARD: And there -- that was one of the funnest elections I've ever been
through, and it -- and I have to say it's the most enjoyable because I beat 02:51:00him, but they lost the ballots. They said they was -- they only had about, uh, out of 5,000-something members, they only had, uh, 900-some ballots. And they called the post office, called the senator. But I didn't go down there, you know, you can serve or you can helped serve, uh, I helped out over at the IBEW meeting hall. And I got there about 10:30, and they told me the bad news, you know, about losing them ballots, and so on. And they had to be. And so, the international rep, he's running the show, anyhow, wasn't supposed to be. He come over here and told me, he said, "Well, we're going to count these ballots, and if you're going to find anymore, don't get a thing -- At eleven 02:52:00o'clock, we're going to start counting these ballots. You got an objection?" I said, "You're running the election, I didn't -- uh, do what you want to, because you're going to do it anyhow." And so, at eleven o'clock, they started counting ballots. They decided to -- of course, I'd already got way out ahead of J.W. And so, they knocked off for lunch, and they got another big ol' box of ballots in, you know, they're all mail ballots. Got them down here at Forest Park, at that big post office. So, they -- they invited me over to eat lunch with them. They had me beat, but their ballots, none of them had children, none of the assistants had showed, and -- where they had counting them. They just -- never did make a big comeback. And it -- I -- I declined to eat lunch with them, because I knew it was going to be -- So, that 02:53:00afternoon, just started counting again, it got worse. And I'd walk around kidding about, uh, call that name one more time. And about seven or eight o'clock that night, J.W. went missing. And he come back about an hour and a half, two hours later, I'm not going to talk about the condition he was in. I met him at the door, and he said, "Well, I'm going to concede, you got me beat." And I said, "Well, J.W., they don't' got them all counted yet." And he said, "Don't call me G-D-, I know it's over with." (laughter) He said -- he said, but -- he said, "I'll tell you how you beat me, you promise every S.O.B. in this state" -- only he said the word -- "assistant business manager's job." And Billy Akott was standing there, and I said -- and he said -- I said, "No, J.W., I haven't promised nobody one, because I didn't 02:54:00have one all election. How could I promise somebody a job I didn't have?" He said, "I guess you promised him one!" Akott was laughing at him then. He said, "I guess you probably --" I said, "No, I hadn't promised him one, but I think we had an understanding if I won this thing. But I'll tell you what, to make you happy, Billy will you come work for me when this thing's over with?" He said, "Let me tell you one G-D- thing," he said, "You can't fill these," you know what, "kind of shoes." He said -- and then he stumbled, and fell, and they picked him up. And that's the last I saw of him until I was sworn into office. He left his car parked over in that parking lot, and they beat the windows out of it, it rained in it. I don't know where he's at all that time. (laughter)LAPORTE: Hmm.
HOWARD: But three years later, he come back and campaigned against me.
02:55:00LAPORTE: So, 1983, you are elected as business manager of IBEW 84?
HOWARD: Correct.
LAPORTE: And you appoint your staff, and now that you've got the reigns, what
are some of the things that Doyle Howard implemented for the members of IBEW 84? How did you run your local union, now?HOWARD: Well, to start with, I put them in a straight telephone line, so they
could call straight in. Started putting out a newsletter, and then made sure all four of them assistants -- well, I had five at that time -- went out in the field, and started organizing. And seeing the members -- our membership, while I was serving as assistant, I went to, uh, a substation up here in Augusta, I run into a man, and I introduce myself, and I told him, I said, "Are you a member 02:56:00of Local 84?" He said "No." I said, "What's your job?" And he told me. And I said, "Why don't you belong to the union?" He said, "There ain't nobody." I asked him how long he'd been in the company, he said 18 years. And I said, "Well, why ain't you in the union?" He said, "Ain't nobody ever ask me." S-- so, we went out there and started going after the members. Uh, well, we tried some co-ops too, but the main thing in our deal was to go out and sign up the members that worked for the power company, first of all. And we went from 50 -- 5,000-something to 6,200 and something members. While the other union was losing members. But we didn't have to go hunt them, they were already there.LAPORTE: So, uh, you focused on internal organizing?
HOWARD: Internal.
LAPORTE: Those that were bargaining unit employees, represented employees, but
02:57:00who were not members of the union?HOWARD: Right.
LAPORTE: And you increased the membership by over 20% --
HOWARD: Right.
LAPORTE: -- from 5,000 to 6,200?
HOWARD: Yeah. Yes, sir, we --
LAPORTE: Mm-hmm. And you think that, uh, the strategy to employ the four
business agents that you appointed --HOWARD: Five.
LAPORTE: Five?
HOWARD: Yes, I had five.
LAPORTE: Uh, to get out in the field, uh, and to ask people who were not
members to join?HOWARD: Yes.
LAPORTE: And then, to identify the advantages, the benefits of belonging to the
union, both for the individual, and the organization?HOWARD: Yes, sir. That was the main -- main theme.
LAPORTE: And, um, so – uh --
HOWARD: We organized a couple of co-ops during that time, too.
LAPORTE: Mm-hmm.
02:58:00HOWARD: Later lost them. And see, we already had GTE Telephone Company -- had a
lot of free riders in that.LAPORTE: OK. And how did you see your duties, uh, change in and increase? Uh,
were there more, uh, delegation of tasks? Was there more direct negotiations? Was there more time spent at the power company?HOWARD: More time spent at the power company, most definitely. Dealing with the
people that really counted -- assistants should deal with the people that really don't make the big decisions. But yes, a whole lot more responsibility, that you have not only responsible for them five people, but you're responsible for every one of them, just like, uh, I had a member call me one time, he said, right after I got elected, and he said, was telling me that he wasn't happy 02:59:00with a decision that I made. And I told him -- I said, "Well, if you had all of the -- the information that I gathered, and the work I'd done on this particular deal, you'd make the same decision I did, or you wouldn't be no leader. You wouldn't be helping the people out." I said, "I can't do what's popular, what you think is popular up there at that plant, and do my job." I said, "I don't want to explain to you." He said, "Well, you've already explained to me that you just don't give a damn about my idea at all." I said, "No, I do." And I said, "If you don't think about that I care, every decision I make, I think about it on the way home, if that's the correct decision." I said the -- I said, "I don't take none of them lightly." I said, "But, I can't -- your whim just for your 03:00:00classification, your station, to gain something that somebody else will lose in the long run, I ain't about to do. Because yeah, it'll weigh heavy on you when you're the one that says this is the way it's going to be, and you've got to make the final decision." But I always sought out the best people to talk to before I made a decision that affected every member out there.LAPORTE: And there was a strike in 1980, and was the, uh, contract up during
your tenure as business manager beginning in '86? When was the next contract up?HOWARD: We had a wage over in '86, and '87 -- see, that was a three-year --
80 -- yeah, '87 -- '88 we had it -- no, that was a -- yeah, '88, we had a 03:01:00contract over. We had a wage reopener -- and by the way, this is one of the strangest wage reopeners you ever -- I never had another like it. But I had an international rep that was, uh, involved in it. The company decided it was going to be a -- because I was a new business manager, I was going to do some extra and beyond for me. They was going -- and any other time, they said they was going -- but they was giving bonuses to the boiler turbine department, uh, the mechanics, electricians working weekends, called a bonus, a small bonus. The people hated them worse than anything in the world. And they told me how many dollars they had to spend on it, and I said, "I'll tell what I do, so every member gets part of it, take how much money and let's put it in an insurance 03:02:00program." And you know what, I had the company talked into it, the international rep went behind my back, and had them pull the plug, and I caught him. So, they offered it, could you leave it laying on the table? No. So, I got some, and it hurt me. It -- it should've helped me, but it hurt me.LAPORTE: Hmm, hmm. Yeah. Well --
HOWARD: Of course, the committee's the one that makes the decision to bring
them back, I never made no decision.LAPORTE: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
HOWARD: Because I wasn't -- I wouldn't even recommended to them. I said,
"There it is, you know the consequence, you don't take it back, you going to do it." Because that's -- going around telling Clyde Connor's [inaudible] vote to bring them back, they could never tell that one me.LAPORTE: Hmm, no.
HOWARD: And they live out their responsibility.
03:03:00LAPORTE: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, yeah. So, um, you were gaining members, you organized,
um, some co-ops. Uh, what were some of the other things that you're most proud of during your first term as business manager?HOWARD: I guess that'd be it, the increase in the membership.
LAPORTE: Yeah?
HOWARD: That was my main -- because the strength in numbers, and yes, that was
more proud than anything we did.LAPORTE: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And your working relationship with the company that
you've -- during that time, Doyle, was it, uh -- uh, respectful, or -- or was it contentious, or was there a period of, uh -- uh, seeking boundaries as to who's going to deal with who in what way? And do you remember the people that you were dealing with?HOWARD: Oh, I absolutely remember them. In fact, I've got a funny story to
tell you about one of them. It was contentious. They'd sent a man over here from Alabama to be over Labor Relations. And he'd come over here to make a 03:04:00name for himself, because there's kind of a rivalry between Georgia and Alabama. Uh, he, uh -- of course, you know, I tried to be in a respectful way to him. I want to -- when he's a liar, I told him he was a liar. And, but (laughter) right in the middle of the contract, he couldn't -- he came over here with one of these -- did you ever seen one of them compacts, that won the contract? He brought one, I think it's a Japanese model, but it was in English, and he brought it over to, uh, my office, and wanted to talk about us doing a contract, like, a -- I said, "That ain't a contract, I can't do that." So, he said, "Well, I'm going to bring it up at the table, the committee. I said, "Well, you going to bring it up, but you're going to get it shot down." And we got into a pretty heated argument about it. So, we got to negotiations, and he brought the thing up. 03:05:00LAPORTE: Hmm.
HOWARD: I said, "Well, I'll tell you what, we'll be willing to talk about
it, if you'd be willing -- one condition. That you be willing -- that the management will be treated under that same compact that we are." He said, "Sure." I said, "You're telling me that no company officer can make over seven times more than the lowest-paid employee?" He said, "No, he can." I said, "Well, that's in that compact." I said, "In Japan, they cannot make more than seven times more than a laborer. You figure up the laborer, and we'll figure up your pay, if you'll do that." We didn't talk about it no more. But we had some really heated -- and in fact, we had the Federal Aviation in, and you know, they don't listen to them. It was a waste of time, but I 03:06:00just did it to make them -- well, one morning, me and -- there's a big problem going on. And I don't know whether you know this or not, but their people talk to the, uh, psychologists, or the psychiatrists, or whatever the title is. Phil, when I go somewhere, I got to be early, I can't be late. Never can, it's just like coming in here. I left however earlier than I should've left, and still have plenty of time, because you never know when you'll -- so, I had to slip into old Jim Avery's office, he's the one, he's the vice president over at Labor Relations. We was going to talk about a way to settle. And I heard him talking to somebody in there in his office, and then he said -- and I heard a whole lot more of the conversation there about how boisterous I was, how I wouldn't listen to anything he had to say, called him a damn liar. And, but 03:07:00this guy's coaching him how to handle. (laughter) And I wish he was singing when he come out that office to see me sitting -- (laughter) He said, "How long you been out here?" I said, "Oh Jim, I just walked in, but I won't cuss you, [inaudible] today and all." He just drops.LAPORTE: (laughter) Yeah, at one point, I know the -- the power company was,
uh, looking at, uh, the contract from Dayton Power and Light.HOWARD: Oh yes.
LAPORTE: Which was virtually two pages.
HOWARD: Yeah.
LAPORTE: Um, did you recall their proposal, or their discussing that, but --
HOWARD: They discussed and put it out there, but see, when we have to exchange
proposals with them, and we've already got theirs, and they've got ours, and under the rules, you can't change none of them. So, yeah, we didn't discuss 03:08:00anything, but we can't actually make it a part of the thing. So, after they got told what we thought about it, they just dropped the idea.LAPORTE: Right, yeah. Yeah, so now -- it -- um, you have, um, people that are
coming in, and you're dealing with them. Um, do you recall, Doyle, some of the -- the progress that you were able to make, um, when you first became business manager?HOWARD: Well, we showed them the grievance --
LAPORTE: Mm-hmm.
HOWARD: -- procedure.
LAPORTE: Mm-hmm.
HOWARD: Got cases settled a whole lot quicker, and settled a lot more cases,
because, uh, we did have some people at the lower level that would -- and by the way, we had the largest increase in -- (laughter) and they blamed me for that -- the largest increase of grievances in the history of Local 84, and never been -- finally tailed off after a few years. But we settled more on lower bases. And 03:09:00like I say, the -- and we did go back to -- I could call management on the phone and settle things without having to go through the grievance procedure. We did reestablish that, because I always preached, we would settle it at the lowest level. So, I only got involved in cases where that I knew the company was dead wrong, it wasn't on -- or, there's a little gray area, I didn't fool with frivolous. By the way, I filed my share of them, too.LAPORTE: So, you -- you wanted to reserve the -- the power of your office, uh,
to those grievances, uh, that you knew had merit?HOWARD: Right.
LAPORTE: And so, you could protect your -- your standing and your credibility,
03:10:00uh, with cases that you knew were going to be significant victories for the union?HOWARD: That's correct. And it saved the union a lot of money by being able
to settle them thing. And 9 times out of 10, except -- the only locations you couldn't settle of them kind was when the employee was -- was not a great employee. If you had a good employee, he's -- the -- both sides would be happy.LAPORTE: Mm-hmm.
HOWARD: But if it was a -- one that's been fired twice for
[inaudible](laugh), uh -- in fact, we won some grievances that -- there was -- wasn't -- wasn't really grievance, it wasn't on the character of the crew then, it was because they just flat didn't follow their own procedure, in fact, old Dahlberg told me one time he wanted me to teach a class on two of them. Of course, he hated my guts, he -- he wasn't never going to let me come over there and teach anything.LAPORTE: And that is Bill Dahlberg --
HOWARD: Yeah.
03:11:00LAPORTE: -- the former president --
HOWARD: And CEO --
LAPORTE: -- and CEO.
HOWARD: -- and CEO of Southern Company in Georgia. But, yeah, in fact, when
they expanded after I got out of office, he -- old Craig Lester, I don't know if you ever run into Craig or not, he was big on the political end over there, but he, uh -- he tried to hire me to go up to New York. His daddy was a big union man, and he was from up there, too. And he wanted me to go up there, and he went to Bill Dahl -- He said, "I'm going to talk to Dahlberg, that's why I was out of office at three here." I said, "Look, there's a -- a -- I thank you for the offer, but Bill Dahlberg isn't going to let you keep me on." And I found out later on, Henry Lightfoot's the one that told me this. He said, "Dahlberg told Craig Lester, if you hi-- hire Doyle Howard, I'll fire you."LAPORTE: (laughter)
03:12:00HOWARD: I said, "Well, that was a compliment."
LAPORTE: (laughter) So --
HOWARD: But I wasn't going with him anyway.
LAPORTE: Yeah. So, did you stand for reelection as business manager in 1989?
HOWARD: Yes, I did.
LAPORTE: Uh-huh. And what was the result of that election?
HOWARD: It was a better than two to one election, too, because I only had one
man in the race, which you don't like to have. But, uh, it was some of J.W.'s ex-assistants, and the other regime. But that -- that was a -- it -- the strength of my politics, that's the best you're ever -- election -- best election I ever run.LAPORTE: And so, you were now a second-term as -- as business manager. Um, you
03:13:00had a contract that had been settled in 1988, uh, so, were things -- now, were you more comfortable in the position, were you -- uh, had you learned a lot in that first term as business manager?HOWARD: I -- I learned a whole lot, but let me say one thing.
LAPORTE: Yeah.
HOWARD: I was comfortable in that position the first day I walked in that door.
I -- I never got more comfortable than I was the first day.LAPORTE: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
HOWARD: And I never got comfortable with the political end of it, but I was
comfortable with that job.LAPORTE: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And what did you, uh, experience, as -- as things went
along? Did you feel so -- that you're, um, position was strengthened as a result of being reelected, and did you feel free to do more things in --HOWARD: Sure. And I could come out and talk a little bit more about politics
than I ever had before. Of course it -- I still didn't prevail. See, that's the advantage of having se-- seven locals, then you could put it all off on 03:14:00them, but it's all you. And -- but, yeah, I had -- the -- the company respected me a whole lot more. I always had a say in -- hell, I don't give a damn if you like me or not, but you are going to respect me. And at the end, I think they did respect me.LAPORTE: Mm-hmm.
HOWARD: Or they said they did.
LAPORTE: Mm-hmm. And so, Doyle, what, um -- what were some of the things that
you were able to -- to do there? Uh, and you know, let -- let me just ask you this. Uh, we're now in -- in 2014. Uh, so, how long did you hold the office of business manager?HOWARD: I held it for 12 years.
LAPORTE: Mm-hmm.
HOWARD: And I got defeated in, what was it, 1998? Yes. I think that'd work
out the right year.LAPORTE: Yes, it would. Mm-hmm.
HOWARD: I remember getting beat, I -- now you try to forget that, you think
03:15:00about winning.LAPORTE: Right.
HOWARD: And I -- so there was something happening before then, let me let you
get -- get --LAPORTE: Sure, go ahead.
HOWARD: -- that in too. Uh, I retired from the power company, uh, I was over
there in a meeting about insurance, and they could -- told me they were going to have an early out there, was going -- uh, if you had 10 years of service with the company, and you were 55 years old, they were going to give a buyout, they were going, uh, bridge you Social Security from 55 to 62 –- of course, I was already 62, so I wasn't on el -- And bro-- bridge your Social Security. They'd pay your pension for, uh, until you were 77 year old, and as if you had 03:16:00worked that time. At the end of the time, they'd buy that out, with a lump sum, and then they'd give you a week's pay for every year of service. And I said, "Well, Mr. Berdahl?, you know I'm 55 years old." He says, "But you can't retire." I said, "Why can't I?" He said, "Look, you've got to be a full-time active employee, and you're on leave, on leave it can't happen." And I said, "If you ever read our contract book?" I said, "I'll be a full-time active employee in the morning." He said, "But who's going to run the union?" I said, "That's none of your damn business, I'll take care of that."LAPORTE: (laughter)
HOWARD: He said -- so, he said, "Well – well -- " It kind of threw him.
He said, "Well, I'll tell you what to -- do. Doyle, let me talk to the center's law firm." And I said, "I know what they're going to tell you, 03:17:00I can come back." He said, "Well, I got to check, I -- I don't know that." I didn't get back in the office, the phone rings, he says, "Doyle, I checked with them, and they said we'd have to let you go, but you've got to come back to work the company one day." I said, "Well, I got some vacation, hell, I can come back." He said, "But you ain't going to take it, are you?" I said, "You think I'm an idiot?" I said, "Yeah, I'm going to take it." So, but I was 50 -- I was 62, so I started drawing my Social Security, and -- and then I draw my pension from them.LAPORTE: And you had a union salary?
HOWARD: Well, the -- I wasn't eligible for my union pension.
LAPORTE: Not -- not the --
HOWARD: Oh yeah, I kept on working.
LAPORTE: Right.
HOWARD: Until I ret-- yeah, I was drawing all of that. In fact, the next
morning, I got up, there's three checks -- four checks in the mailbox, Social 03:18:00Security bridge, the Social Security -- no, I didn't get my Social Security because I hadn't filed then. Uh, I didn't file Social Security until I got beat, but I had three checks. I had the bridge on the pension to Social Security raising that, and then got up and went to work. And by the way, he told me, the day before, it was the last day of March, the first day of April was when I was retired. I ain't work a day yet for the company. He said, "We got to meet on the insurance in the morning." I said, "No, I can't do it, I've got to go to Plant Bowen and work." He said, "No, you -- " He said, "We just got a meet." Uh, I said, "No, I told you, I got to." He says, "Look, the contract says, uh, we pay you for coming to union business when you're on the payroll, we'll pay you." I said, "Yeah, but what if I don't want to come up here, you can't tell me I got to come -- come to negotiations with your 03:19:00members." Of course, I was just doing that to -- And he said OK. I said, "Yeah, I'll -- I'll be here, we do need to settle it." And we did settle it.LAPORTE: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Other duties as assigned.
HOWARD: (laughter) Right.
LAPORTE: (laughter) Yeah, all right, so it was, uh, 19 -- uh, 1986 to 1998, 12 years.
HOWARD: Yes.
LAPORTE: That you served as business manager.
HOWARD: That's my magic number.
LAPORTE: Right. And what -- what year, uh, did you retire, Doyle, from the
power company?HOWARD: Let's see, uh, I was 62 when I retired, I was 55 -- I mean, I was 55
-- it'd be five years back. I retired in -- might've been '93, wouldn't it?LAPORTE: OK.
HOWARD: Yeah, it was '93. Yeah, it was '93.
03:20:00LAPORTE: All right, so, uh, and then, it came to 1998. And what -- tell me what
happened in 19 -- uh, '98 in your campaign to be reelected as business manager?HOWARD: Uh, well, pure and simple -- um, well, I told you about the retirement
a lot of my --LAPORTE: Yeah.
HOWARD: -- uh, people that really supported me retired, went out the gate.
LAPORTE: Mm-hmm.
HOWARD: And then this started to -- I was 62 years old, I started at -- and
then, by the way, the -- I've always said if I got beat, the company beat me, and none of my members, because they wasn't -- not putting them down, but they wasn't supporting us politically beat me. They got one man -- in fact, the company talked this man into running, I know it for sure. But they beat me, the company went around telling it, and he did too, that I was too old. And needed 03:21:00some younger man in the job. And it worked.LAPORTE: And how old were you at that point?
HOWARD: Sixty-two.
LAPORTE: Sixty-two? And who was your opponent?
HOWARD: Mo Wallace. I can say one thing, I better not say it on record, though.
LAPORTE: And so, the campaign was the -- the old gray mayor ain't what he
used to be?HOWARD: That's exactly what it was.
LAPORTE: Yeah. And --
HOWARD: See, if you -- if you go along with it -- especially, it -- it's a
miracle that you can stay 12 years at a -- in a utility, because there's so many people that's just like what happened to me the last time. If you don't do what they want to do, no matter whether it's right or wrong, them and their crowds are going to come after you, and it'll catch up with you. And then the 03:22:00little prompting from the company, you're a dead duck. That's just union politics.LAPORTE: Well, you know, there are situations where, uh, people are -- are
defeated, and then they, um -- they mount a comeback. And people elect someone, and when they actually get in office and have to run an organization, there's a very big difference between campaigning and administering.HOWARD: Absolutely.
LAPORTE: And so, Mr. Wallace came into office, and what happened to Local 84
under his tenure, uh, from 1998 to 2001?HOWARD: The financials went out the bottom, there was a great theft over there,
and never recovered from it. Or never recovered where it went. Plus, the company 03:23:00just implemented and done anything it wanted to. Failure to represent, he didn't know how. He said I was too controversial, that I didn't get along with the company, he was going to prove to me that company wasn't so bad after all. Of course, he'd had all kinds of trouble with them. But he's -- uh, the man just didn't have no idea what the job was about, he'd been a -- a shop steward, he'd never been to -- even to a grievance meeting. And he was -- just had no idea. And then he kept one of my assistants, and he tried to keep them all, but they wouldn't stay. And then, I guess, with me and tie me in, but, uh, he just flat -- he had no idea. You could've went out here and got a transient off the street who knew as much as he did. That's sad. 03:24:00LAPORTE: And so, uh, finances went astray, um, the reports, uh, required by the
federal government from LM1, LM2 reports, filing with the IRS, filing with the US Department of Labor, all of these things that, uh -- an experienced union official takes for granted, someone who's coming in brand new may not even know that they have all of those legal filing requirements.HOWARD: Oh yeah, they -- they got no idea. They don't even know there's
other co-ops that belong to that union, they don't even know that outside line construction there, and don't care. They're just looking after their own little core group. But if -- if you got the worst officer in the union that knows something, you're a whole lot better off than you are with somebody that don't know anything and got no idea. And that's exactly what happened to the 03:25:00Local 84. He started a classification over there that, uh, we've been to court -- uh, we didn't go to court with the NRO, NLBR, can't even say it. And went to the --LAPORTE: NLRB.
HOWARD: -- the National Labor Board, and -- and they – it devastated us. And
by the way, that come back to haunt me later after he done it, it's caused me more grief, still, in the last election. The call -- uh, not a system operator, but a GPO, general plant operator? That's where the operator does the operating, the electrical work, the, uh -- uh, mechanical work, and the janitorial work, all.LAPORTE: And so, all of the jurisdictional boundaries, and all of the different
03:26:00requirements for doing electrical work, doing plumbing work, uh, usually requires, uh, certification and licensure. And then jurisdictional boundaries, uh, that are strict. And if one individual, or one job title is going to encompass all of those duties, plus custodial work, uh, you -- you could reclassify everyone in that title.HOWARD: Well, see when -- when we thought the thing was the -- of course, I was
out of office when it was agreed – uh, agreed to, but it was when he signed that thing, they didn't even -- even what we was told. In fact, me and Phil Gurley had a long discussion before he left, and he said, "Doyle, it ain't that way." I said, "Phil, I kept up with everything that's going on, and – and -- " And I said, "You just needing that -- " That's when they built these combined cycles, you know what the real deal is. It's so we can do 03:27:00the, uh, packing valves and stuff like that with the operator, and now, we can contract all of that work out, and we won't have to have full-time employees to keep it running. We'll keep the small work for the operator to do -- really, it was nothing but operating. We did that anyway. But what made us so bad, we thought it was only for the new, uh, combined cycle. They guided it in Mitchell with -- had a real fight over it, and we lost in arbitration, now they're doing it at Yates, and next thing, they'll be doing it at Bowen. And we lost all kinds of membership over it.LAPORTE: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Well, change the definition of the job, then you can
change who's qualified --HOWARD: Right.
LAPORTE: -- to fill that job. So, um, during that three-year period, uh, 1998
03:28:00to 2001, that's when you were offered, uh, the opportunity to go to New York?HOWARD: Yes.
LAPORTE: And, uh, Bill Dahlberg, uh, didn't think that was a good idea? (laughter)
HOWARD: Said there's no way.
LAPORTE: (laughter) Well, what did you do in those three years? So, you were
out of office --HOWARD: Let's see --
LAPORTE: -- you had retired from the power company, you were now out of office.
HOWARD: You want to know about my other jobs in life?
LAPORTE: Yes.
HOWARD: I -- uh, first of all, uh, I got a friend that's over the mill rides,
Mike Hamilton, I don't know whether you've ever met Mike -- his father and I were the ones in the golf course business together. So, I went over to visit him one day and he said -- I, "Done tired of sitting around the house," he said, uh, "Well, I'll send you over to Plant Hammond -- no, I'll send you to 03:29:00Plant Bowen as a mill ride." I said, "General mill ride?" And he said, "Yeah, we'll take care, put you in the storeroom." The storeroom runs -- no, tool room, not storeroom, tool room. And I said, "I don't know if Georgia Power will let me in the door or not." He said, "Hey, we got the contract." He said, "You can go over there as a mill rider -- I mean, at Bowen." So, guess what, when I get to Bowen, what happens, some, uh, the nemesis was over there that got Wallace to run against me to start with, said there wasn't no way I was going to work in that tool room. Well, he violated the law, I didn't -- I should've pushed it, didn't even think about it at the time. So, they paid me two days' pay, and sent me packing. So, I went back to Mike, and he said, "If you got some wrenches and -- and a lot of stuff." 03:30:00And, uh, I said, "I got -- if I ain't got it, I can get it." He says, "I'll send you to Plant Hammond." So, they had a turbine tear-down over at Plant Hammond, I went over there and worked, I think, about a month and a half. Or, yes, six weeks, had a lot of work, though. Phil, I couldn't hardly climb in and out of that turbine. (laughter) And then, they had some of them -- the prettiest mill rides, when they found out that I -- I'm drawing the mill ride pay, you think they didn't go wilder than them older ones? (laughter) Said, "That old man does more work than all y'all put together. So, he deserves the pay y'all just rode them." But I never worked a job in my life, Phil, that at the end of the day that the boss come up and told me what a great job done. I would've fired me the first day. He thanked me for everything. Of 03:31:00course, I worked, and done the best I could, but it wasn't near right like I could do when I was at Lockheed. But every day, that man thanked me for the job I done.LAPORTE: Mm-hmm.
HOWARD: So, I stayed there until that played out, and then guess what my next
venture was? Had a friend down there that said, hey, they need a -- you know these little old county buses that pick up the -- uh, old age and the handicapped, carry them to town or the doctor? Well, I drove one of them until I come back. And they tried to put me on full-time. So, uh, old boy, that he's dead now, that tried to give me the job, so I went in there and told them I was quitting. He says, "Well, we promoted somebody, but you told me you didn't want the job. Is you quitting because I --" I said, "Look, I'm going back to the union." He said, "Well, I knew one day you was probably going to do it." He said, "But I thought that's another year or two away." I said, 03:32:00"No, I'm going to go back." So, I quit the bus company, and went to campaigning. Had meetings all over the state, and got my old buddies together, and it was a pretty easy race.LAPORTE: So, Doyle, you had, um, a whole new -- arguably, uh, a whole new
workforce to campaign before. Many of your contemporaries --HOWARD: They're done retired.
LAPORTE: -- had retired, right?
HOWARD: Correct.
LAPORTE: And in the, uh -- it would've been 12, uh, 15 years, uh, that you
had been employed, uh, there were many, many new employees that came in.HOWARD: Well, l-- let me remind you of one thing.
LAPORTE: Mm-hmm.
HOWARD: Those people didn't vote.
LAPORTE: Uh-huh.
HOWARD: A lot of them knew me, see there was a -- I'm -- I was older than a
03:33:00lot of them, but the people that really got out and voted, this time, got out and voted for me the second go-round.LAPORTE: Yeah, do you -- do you have any recollection about, uh, the number of
ballots cast in these various elections? Uh, the first time you were elected, uh --HOWARD: It was about right after -- well, it was like I said, they still claim
there's some lost, I doubt it.LAPORTE: Mm-hmm.
HOWARD: There was about 1,800 or 1,900.
LAPORTE: OK, so --
HOWARD: Or a little over 2,000, I'm wrong, a little over --
LAPORTE: OK.
HOWARD: They just kept coming down.
LAPORTE: And -- and did -- so, you stood for office, um, three times after you
were initially elected.HOWARD: Yeah.
LAPORTE: And -- and did the turnout, the number of ballots cast, were the --
was it consistent around 2,000?HOWARD: No.
LAPORTE: Did the --
HOWARD: It come down every year.
LAPORTE: Every year?
HOWARD: Every -- every election cycle.
LAPORTE: Mm-hmm.
HOWARD: This last time, it wasn't but 700 or something.
03:34:00LAPORTE: Wow. And -- and did the number of employees remain, uh, consistent?
You know, at one point --HOWARD: Well, it come down to the -- about 4,000 when it was all over. See,
they let the workforce drop tremendously.LAPORTE: Yeah.
HOWARD: Then we -- all of them retirement, early out, and didn't replace them.
LAPORTE: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Now, so, we went down, um -- but consistently, it --
it appears as though, uh, less than half, uh, of those eligible voters actually cast a ballot.HOWARD: Right. [break in video]
LAPORTE: Yeah. We're going to -- OK. So, Doyle, I'm -- I'm interested in,
uh, looking at the -- the turnout in these various elections, when you stood for reelection, uh, as the business manager. And it was your sense that the level of 03:35:00participation that the ballots cast continued to decline?HOWARD: Absolutely, every election.
LAPORTE: Hmm. And let's -- let's -- let's talk about the election, um, in
2001. Uh, during your three-year hiatus, you had a variety of different jobs, as a mill ride, as, again, a -- a bus operator, uh, and now, it's 2001, and you're going back, and you're going to campaign for that business manager job. Do you remember some of the issues that came up in the campaign in 2001?HOWARD: Yeah, the issues was that classification -- had combined all of the
work under one classification, the fact that, uh, they never got a complete report from the union, they didn't know what was going on. Of course, at -- at the time, they didn't know there wasn't nothing going on. It didn't amount 03:36:00to anything, I think it arbitrated one case, maybe, during that time. It might've been two. And, uh, I know the two that were settled in -- or one, were already started, we were already certified for arbitration. So, that was another issue, and of course, the people that were still there that supported me kept abreast of everything that went on because, uh, they were -- they meant to have me back, and they knew it was just another low turnout, the people wasn't interested was the reason I got beat to start with.LAPORTE: Mm-hmm. And so, now we have, uh, the reelection campaign, and what
were the results in -- in 2001?HOWARD: Well, uh, there were, uh, I believe, four of us in that race. And, uh,
Phil Katt was so low that I didn't -- I didn't beat all four of them, but, 03:37:00uh, I got more than enough, if there'd have been a runoff, I'd have beat him anyway, but I still don't like the idea of a runoff.LAPORTE: Mm-hmm, so you were elected with a plurality of the votes?
HOWARD: Right.
LAPORTE: And, uh, did you get a sense of where they came from?
HOWARD: Yes, knew -- knew where the plants came from, mostly Plant Vogel, Plant
Bowen, Plant Hammond, and of course, I -- I had a pretty good strength in the line section, and all of south Georgia. But, that -- that's basically where they come from. The fact that you could -- we can go to the address and look at the address, we knew where they come from. We couldn't look at the ballots, but we could look at the address. 03:38:00LAPORTE: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And -- and so, you're returned. You were the, uh,
once and future business manager, uh, and, uh, did you go and call, um, the company, and tell them I'm back!HOWARD: No, I think they --
LAPORTE: No?
HOWARD: -- already --
LAPORTE: They --
HOWARD: -- was prepared for me, they done change the Labor Relations manager
again. So, they had a new one when I come back in. Like they did the first time. But they -- they were all a little bit different. Uh, well, Radcliffe had become CEO at that time. He wasn't happy to see me come back, because -- because our political things -- but, uh, basically, the rest of them -- they'd moved Henry Lightfoot over there in Ed Usher's place, over at Labor Relations. So, that's -- they knew me, and I knew them, and I don't know what their 03:39:00perception was about me coming back. [inaudible] was glad to see me, but I never have believed everything they told me.LAPORTE: Mm-hmm. And did you get a -- uh, get to a point, a whole new group of
assistant business managers, and did you retain five of them?HOWARD: No, the finances, when I came back -- that's another big story by
itself, wasn't able to hire but four. I was concerned about having enough finances to pay the four when I came back. It was in bad shape the first time, but it was in worse shape this time, uh, because you couldn't account for where all of the money went to. But, yeah, I brought them all back for -- except one. Uh, well, there -- really, two. One of them didn't want to come back, but, uh, well he was in the other regime, there wasn't no way I would have 03:40:00brought him back. And I brought one -- there wasn't one that did -- he really, I don't know whether he wanted to come back or not, he didn't -- he didn't get -- get involved in the election or do anything. So, uh, I didn't feel like he's -- well, he got burned out on the job before we left, and I just didn't feel like he wanted to do it, so we didn't ask him.LAPORTE: Yeah, mm-hmm. Now, when you -- when you came back in 2001, um, what
was the membership of the union, uh, both, uh, in terms of just raw numbers, uh, and percentage of membership versus free riders?HOWARD: It was about 16% or 17%, the best I remember.
LAPORTE: Mm-hmm.
HOWARD: It was -- actually, the international helped me put on some classes
internal, and organize them. We even done it before they got involved, we -- we 03:41:00set up committees at each plant, each location, and each union had a certain -- and I don't remember how much the gain was, but it was considerable, but it wasn't as good as it ought to be.LAPORTE: Yeah, well, when you were first business manager in 1986, the high
watermark of local 84 was approximately 6,200 members.HOWARD: Yeah.
LAPORTE: And, uh, the -- um, local was, at one point, 90% organized.
HOWARD: Right.
LAPORTE: And when you returned in 2001, after having been out of office for
three years, do you recall what the situation was when you returned?HOWARD: It was, uh -- it was down consider -- see, it went down during my time.
LAPORTE: Yes.
HOWARD: We had Cobb EMC deserted, uh, while I was gone, Jackson EMC deserted.
03:42:00But, yeah, we was coming down, like I say, they didn't fill those jobs at Georgia Power that was early out. So, by sheer numbers, we had done come down -- I believe it was down to about, oh, 4,800 or so. I remember going to, uh, Georgia Electrical Workers, and, uh, they, uh -- the international got up and give a report and scolded me because my numbers were going down. They went down on me, but nothing you can do. You ain't got the membership. It probably was a better percentage, at that time, then the members have ever been. But, now nobody's -– I told them about it -- nobody's signed up.LAPORTE: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah, so, um -- so, then you -- you are beginning your
second tenure as business manager with the Georgia Power Company. Um, and you -- as you say, uh, you had two 12-year runs.HOWARD: Right.
03:43:00LAPORTE: And now, the -- the second, uh, time began in 2001. Uh, and, um, what
-- what were some of the issues that you faced when you took over the second time, which was now 15 years after the first?HOWARD: Uh, come into office, I found a stack of bills on my desk about six
inches high, unpaid, and had more money in the bank than I did when I left. I couldn't figure that out. But what I found out, and I went through them, and they were probably, uh -- well, it was three months behind with the per capita tax, and you know, that's a pretty good lump sum of money. Overall, I don't know how they kept the utilities from -- they didn't pay nothing. It was all 03:44:00behind. There was -- oh, membership cards laying in there, and never been sent to Georgia Power. And then it was when we finally -- after I got all of those bills caught up, the books didn't balance. Then I got to looking at the -- where the money -- of course, I done fired the secretary, I better find out where the money's gone. So, there was a -- had paid their self more than they were supposed to have when they left office. Uh, it wasn't a humungous amount, but each one of them could've went to jail for it. Uh, had to -- like I said, the per capita tax on all of the bills, and then there was -- found out, uh, a 03:45:00secretary had paid, uh, you know, we kept $1,000 over there, which, uh, national -- I mean, the -- uh, board don't want you to have. You -- you ain't supposed -- but they allow you to keep it, the agent will under certain terms. Chuck Logan's the one that came over and investigated for the, uh, board. And, of course, him and Jimmy Buss, the auditor, were neighbors. And Jimmy knew the whole score. But she -- we can find where she had stole 9,000-some dollars, and of course the rest of it, I don't know -- because we made them pay back what they had. In fact, Chuck told me, he said, "Do you think, Doyle, they took it through ignorance, but they took it for -- uh, just because they could get it?" I said, "Well, Chuck, I'd rather say they did it just in ignorance, I really don't think they meant to defraud the local union." I said, "I -- 03:46:00I'm sure some of them were capable, but I don't believe every one of them done it." And so, he just -- he made -- he had me write them a letter. Oh boy, they went crazy when they got their letter. It was about $10,000 worth of it. And they kept getting bills, and then I got another, uh, about $90,000 worth. Anyhow, the whole total public treasure down about -- about $100,000, when I left it, it was about $500,000. And we were paying the bills on time. And how the international let him get away with, uh, not paying per capita tax, they never explained that to me. Because, of course, I always believe in paying them first, because I didn't want them looking down my back. And I didn't want 03:47:00none of that union money misplaced, anyway. But old Mo came back in there, and he said, "I told Steve Ergot we wouldn't do that money." I said, "Well, then it's your responsibility, buddy." He said, "Well, you going to send me to the pen?" I said, "I don't send you nowhere." I told him, "With facts like that -- they'll -- they'll decide what they're going to do with you." Did you know they didn't even prosecute that secretary? You know why the state didn't? My wife was in the hospital with her last round of what's wrong with her. He called me, he said, "Doyle, can you get to Cobb County?" And I -- I turned to the solicitor or whatever it is -- the prosecutor, and I said, "No, why?" He says, "I can't get them to let me to prosecute her." He said "She didn't steal $10,000." I said, "Do you mean I can 03:48:00go there and steal $9,999?" He said, "You can't, you steal $99, you're gone but -- " And she -- she had done it up north somewhere before. And of course, there's probably $100,000 that'll never be accounted for.LAPORTE: Well, yeah, that's certainly a significant difference, um, $400,000
difference in the balance that you left, and the balance that existed, particularly without, um, meeting, uh, the day-to-day obligations. Um, so, OK. It's, um, Doyle Howard can come back and take office, and, uh, on a platform of restore the integrity of the union, restore the financial integrity, uh, represent the members, and enforce the contract?HOWARD: Absolutely, that was what they voted me back in to do --
LAPORTE: Mm-hmm, that was your --
03:49:00HOWARD: -- and expected of me. And I expected to do it.
LAPORTE: Mm-hmm. And so, what were some of the things that you did, uh, upon
your return? You -- you straightened the money out, and -- and did you call for an outside audit, and --HOWARD: Yes.
LAPORTE: -- and had a report to the membership?
HOWARD: Yes, I did.
LAPORTE: And then, um, you -- uh, you attempted to, uh, ensure that there was
restitution made?HOWARD: Yes.
LAPORTE: Uh, and those that had engaged in criminal activity, to have them prosecuted?
HOWARD: Sure did.
LAPORTE: So, and, uh, how did the members respond to that action?
HOWARD: Again, Phil, the -- that's what they elected me to do, and thanked me
for doing it, but it was real no concern to them. That's -- that -- that -- that's what bothered me most about the membership. Uh, I mean, so, we were talking a while ago. They elect you to do that, they expect you to do it, and 03:50:00then they expect you to do the impossible, too.LAPORTE: Mm-hmm, yeah. Uh, and you felt, uh, comfortable with the team that you
put in place to carry out, uh, your platform, and the ideals that you had for the local union?HOWARD: Sure did.
LAPORTE: And were they assigned, uh, different segments of the state, Doyle, or
was it by division, by classification?HOWARD: It was -- they held the section, they were called sections, and the --
the power plants -- well, Timmy Williams handled the nuclear section, because that's a whole different ballgame. In fact, they spun them off from Georgia Power, so he took care of that. Uh, Jim Woods, of course, he later got killed in an auto accident, he, uh, took care of the plants. And then Mark Spivey took 03:51:00care of the line section. And the outside line section.LAPORTE: Mm-hmm.
HOWARD: The most beat-up group we've got is the outside linemen. They don't
get a fair break no -- from nobody. The contractors, the union, or nobody else.LAPORTE: Mm-hmm. And do they face the most haz-- uh, job hazards?
HOWARD: Yes, they do. All kind of weather, and working conditions, and
equipment that ain't as good as a -- most of them will get out of -- brought that up, and as -- it still ain't all the way up to the center of Georgia Power Company.LAPORTE: Mm-hmm, yeah. Uh, so, you, uh, implemented the -- the new management,
uh, a new -- a new staff, got them out, uh, and then, um, did you have a new 03:52:00line up to deal with, as far as the company representatives?HOWARD: Yes, I had try out a new manager of labor relations, and of course,
they had a new president, they had a -- of course, you know the president of Georgia Power Company never dealt with the union until I came into office. If they did something I didn't like, and I couldn't get an answer, I'd go straight to him. Sometimes, he'd straighten it out, and sometimes he wouldn't.LAPORTE: And -- and who was the new labor relations manager?
HOWARD: Henry Lightfoot.
LAPORTE: Mm-hmm.
HOWARD: He was hard, but he was fair.
LAPORTE: Mm-hmm. And so, in the -- how many contracts did you negotiate in the
second 12 years of your tenure?HOWARD: Well, let's see, they were three-year contracts until the last, and
so there's been -- I guess three contracts, because one of them is still in effect. 03:53:00LAPORTE: And did you have -- uh, who had the authority to establish the
negotiating committee? Was it by appointment or election?HOWARD: It's supposed to be by appointment, but I always let them elect them,
because of the problem with the international. But I felt like the people need to elect someone that they trust to do it, and not -- not who I trusted. But who they trusted.LAPORTE: Mm-hmm. And did you find that that helped get a ratification vote when
the contact proposal was sent to the membership --HOWARD: Yeah.
LAPORTE: -- for ratification?
HOWARD: Yes, yes, it did. Because he's responsible to that group out there,
and he knows everything that goes on.LAPORTE: Mm-hmm. And, since the 1980 strike, did each contract proposal get
ratified under your administration?HOWARD: Yes, they did. Sometimes, it took three tries, but we got it. (laughter)
03:54:00LAPORTE: And -- and so, uh, the company, uh, certainly had to view that if they
got a deal with the negotiating committee that had, uh, been recommended by Doyle Howard, usually, that meant that they got a contract?HOWARD: Yeah, uh, they -- they sure did. They knew that was the only way they
was going to get one.LAPORTE: And -- and did that increase your -- your status and standing with the
company as -- as you represented members of Local 84?HOWARD: Sure did.
LAPORTE: Mm-hmm. And, uh, so now you, uh -- well, tell me, uh, over that
12-year period, um, your second tenure, uh, can you give me some of the highlights of the progress that you made, uh, and you can start with the finances if you'd like.HOWARD: Oh boy, that was the main thing, just put it back in order the way I
03:55:00had it before, grievances, the representation, and, uh, out there organizing 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Not quite that much, but that was the main instance, organizing.LAPORTE: And did your -- your bills get paid on time, per capita get paid to
the international? Did the balance of your account return to that prior level that approached $500,000?HOWARD: Yes, thankfully it did, we sold our old union hall, and built a new one
that was worth 10 times more than the old one, and the finances were better off than they'd ever been than when I left this last time.LAPORTE: Mm-hmm. And do you -- do you know what the -- what the balance is when
-- when you left, uh, after your second tenure?HOWARD: Uh, right around $400,000, somewhere close.
03:56:00LAPORTE: And that reflects the --
HOWARD: And I'd buy -- I just bought three new cars when I left, so that
brought it down a little bit, but --LAPORTE: Right. But that reflects a -- an almost 20% drop in membership.
HOWARD: Oh yeah.
LAPORTE: Yeah? And so, the finances would be, uh --
HOWARD: It was --
LAPORTE: -- more than comparable. Four times than what you were left with.
HOWARD: Yeah, but there's -- there's another saying that I failed to
mentioned this importance that. That outside line group, I said, gets the short sheet on everything. They pay what we call an assessment.LAPORTE: Mm-hmm.
HOWARD: And the more work we get through that, the more -- and in fact,
there's a whole lot more than the union dues. So, there's a -- when the work slows, you -- $100,000, or $125,000, $150,000 less than -- so, that picked up. So, that made up for a lot of that loss in the other. 03:57:00LAPORTE: Mm-hmm, OK, all right. Uh, and in terms of your, uh, organizing
efforts, uh, did you -- uh, you were -- you able to take that rate of, uh, non-members that had reached almost 20% back to, uh, that -- that lower number?HOWARD: It was -- it was back to about 90%. It might've been lower. When we
checked it, the last time, it was right at 90%, it may have been lower than that, because I hadn't checked it in, like -- because we continuously –- took the e-board in Macon, because they was from all over the state, and they always had to report every month what's going on in their section of the state. How many they'd organized, how many they contacted, and so it -- it might've been up, uh, way above 90%, I don't know. But, it's right at 90% --LAPORTE: Mm-hmm.
03:58:00HOWARD: -- the last time I checked.
LAPORTE: Mm-hmm. And did you institute any, um, new innovations in terms of
communication with the -- the statewide local when you returned, uh, we found websites, and, uh, emails, and --HOWARD: Yeah, we -- we added all of that stuff to it, and got in trouble the
way we put it in there to start with, they could get on there and just blast you, but we figured it to where they couldn't do that no more. But, yeah, that really helped out a whole lot, too.LAPORTE: Mm-hmm.
HOWARD: In terms of the people to find out what's going on in the union.
LAPORTE: Sure. Yeah.
HOWARD: But there still ain't nothing like that voice phone or the mail.
LAPORTE: Mm-hmm.
HOWARD: On the telephone.
LAPORTE: Sure, sure. Personal touch.
HOWARD: Yeah.
LAPORTE: Uh, and so now, uh, you were reelected, uh, three times?
HOWARD: Yes, sir.
03:59:00LAPORTE: And the -- and the second term -- second tenure. And, uh, Doyle
Howard, um, am I correct that you're serving as business manager at IBEW 84 for 24 years, is the longest service of any business manager in the history of IBEW 84?HOWARD: It certainly is.
LAPORTE: Uh, you have accounted for 50% of the existence of the local, in terms
of administering it as business manager?HOWARD: Yes.
LAPORTE: And, uh, your, uh, tenure there was -- was marked with, um, solid
finances, with a 90% membership rate, with a, uh, communications system that sought to inform members as to what was going on in the union, what their 04:00:00contract said, and the considered decision of the business manager, assistant business managers, and the e-board?HOWARD: Yes.
LAPORTE: And if -- if we -- we look at that -- that -- that overall tenure, uh,
when it -- it came time, uh, for you to, um, retire, for you to move on, what were some of the things that people said about Doyle Howard, in terms of his career with the labor movement?HOWARD: Well, uh, that -- that's a hard question, Phil. I don't -- but most
of them, that I've had integrity, and been truthful, and done what I said I was going to do, and the leadership that I showed, and the trust they put in me. But to say the -- the most thing I'm proud of the whole time, there's over 100 people that went back to work at Georgia Power that were terminated, not 04:01:00only Georgia Power, but GTE, and some of the EMC. Over 100 went back to work, um, under my tenure with the Local 84, with back pay, uh, or partial back pay, or went back to work with no pay, but they still retained their job.LAPORTE: So, uh, you know, the grievance and arbitration system, uh, serves as
a review of disciplinary actions taken by any employer.HOWARD: Right.
LAPORTE: And is it your experience that you utilize that grievance and
arbitration system, uh, effectively to ensure justice on the job for employees? 04:02:00HOWARD: Sure did. In fact, that was my main, I think, accomplishment, that I
used it to the fullest.LAPORTE: Mm-hmm.
HOWARD: Whatever resource it took.
LAPORTE: And how -- how many grievances, or -- should -- uh, were taken to
arbitration, on -- on average, during your tenure, Doyle?HOWARD: A year, or --
LAPORTE: Mm-hmm, annually, mm-hmm. You -- you had mentioned that a three-year
tenure of another, uh, business manager that there were literally only two cases taken to arbitration. There were three, but the first one is the one you had certified.HOWARD: Right.
LAPORTE: And over the course of three years, he only had two, so they averaged
one per year.HOWARD: There was -- sometimes, we'd take 10, or 12, or even 14. It got -- it
went down over the years, like I say, if you took the whole 24 years, they probably averaged 10 arbitrations a month. Or no, that'd be a little bit high. 04:03:00I'd say about six, maybe. At one time, we were winning 80% of our arbitration. And you know what the average national was at that time? Right around 20.LAPORTE: Hmm.
HOWARD: And we won a couple of the National Labor Board charges too. And one
case in the 11th District Court of Appeals.LAPORTE: Mm-hmm. And so, you -- you think you averaged 72 arbitrations a year?
HOWARD: I was -- yeah.
LAPORTE: OK.
HOWARD: Well, no, that'd be too high, Phil, but --
LAPORTE: But they may -- you know.
HOWARD: Yeah, that's way too high.
LAPORTE: Many -- many of them get settled long before they go hearing.
HOWARD: Oh yeah, oh yeah.
LAPORTE: So, they're --
HOWARD: Yeah, I was -- I'm looking at grievances. Well, one -- if you won, uh
04:04:00-- you had more a year, it was more like 10 a year than 15.LAPORTE: Yes.
HOWARD: Yeah.
LAPORTE: Mm-hmm, OK.
HOWARD: I got it completely wrong.
LAPORTE: That's all right. So, 10 -- 10 arbitrations that actually went to
hearing --HOWARD: Yeah, right.
LAPORTE: -- per year.
HOWARD: Oh yeah, it was -- like I said, we got to where we could settle a bunch
of them.LAPORTE: Yes, the -- the vast majority of cases that get certified to go to
arbitration get settled before they ever go to hearing.HOWARD: That's reason the percentage is so low.
LAPORTE: Yes.
HOWARD: So, we lower -- but we're still -- still did better than the average,
even at the end there.LAPORTE: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yes, yeah. And -- and so, um, as -- as you look back,
uh, you were business manager with IBEW for 24 years. You were assistant 04:05:00business manager for three years, so that's 27 years. You were the recording secretary for Local 84. You were a job steward with Local 84. So, you had approximately 30 years of service in leadership roles with IBEW Local 84.HOWARD: Yes, sir.
LAPORTE: And -- and prior to your career with the Georgia Power Company, you
were a member of the Amalgamated Transit Union, and, uh -- uh, two different local lodges of the International Association of Machinists. So, uh, quick math is that your total career with the labor movement, uh, extended over a 43-year period. Is that fairly accurate, or --HOWARD: That's fairly accurate.
LAPORTE: Yeah.
04:06:00HOWARD: Oh, there was Georgia Power -- I mean, with the IBEW, 40 years, because
when I retired, I got a 40-year certificate. So, most of that 40 years was with the -- and by the way, there's another union I didn't tell you about, it's the UAW. Didn't pay dues but one month until I got laid off. I remember back when they had them big changeovers in the cars, they had flu epidemic here in Atlanta, I was laid off at Lockheed in '58, I believe it was, and I went over there and worked. Of course, they hired more than they need up here at the time, when they get them lines going 60 miles an hour. But, uh, it was just -- like I said, I think I took out one month of dues, by the time I got it in, I was laid off. They cut back the work force. By the way, Phil, I went to seven 04:07:00international conventions as a delegate. I went to -- I guess, I don't know how many AFL-CIOs, did you, Richard?RICHARD: [inaudible]
HOWARD: Down at the Herb Mabry's deal, I served as -- served on [inaudible]
10 years, southeastern contractors' apprenticeship program, the IBEW joint program. I served as chairman of that eight years. I served as a, uh, UCC1 chairman, that's the southerner's group with utilities for about 10 years, 11.LAPORTE: And you were a vice president of the Georgia state AFL-CIO, is that correct?
04:08:00HOWARD: Corr-- that's correct. How many years was it, Richard? About 22?
RICHARD: Uh, at least 20, maybe 22.
HOWARD: Because you -- you drafted me down in Columbus, when I come back to
work. And then I served as vice president of the Georgia Electrical Workers for the whole time I was business -- yeah, the whole time I was business manager. So, it was only utilities, so they had to -- they had -- well, they had 1208, but he never would serve.LAPORTE: So, uh, how many years did you, uh, work at -- at Lockheed? Did you --
HOWARD: Let's see, eight -- off and on, 11 years.
04:09:00LAPORTE: OK. So, you know, in revising my math, um, total number of years that
you were employed and a member of a labor union exceeds 50 years?HOWARD: Yeah.
LAPORTE: Well over --
HOWARD: Yeah.
LAPORTE: -- yeah. Yeah, so --
HOWARD: See, me and my wife has been married 52 years, so I've been working
all them years plus the ones before. And all of them non-covered work.LAPORTE: Mm-hmm.
HOWARD: The golf course, the service time.
LAPORTE: Right. Did you -- did you try to organize the National Guard when you
were on active duty?HOWARD: No, but they accused me of it.
LAPORTE: No? (laughter) OK. So Doyle, reflecting back on over a 50-year career
in the labor movement, can you describe some of the changes, uh, that you experienced from then, and 1958, to 2014? And what is your outlook for organized 04:10:00labor, as we continue to see our working lives get more technological, more complicated, and more and more automated?HOWARD: Well, there really is -- and it's hard to say with the change, but
the work is -- the work's changed as much as the people, and the people seem to change with the work. The work ethics back then, and the honesty and the integrity was at its greatest, and -- and people wanted to get involved back then. I remember -- heck, I couldn't wait until I got to be the shop steward, and, uh, just for a shop steward job, you'd have 20 people to run in a big department. Now, uh, I even remember one year in my election as business manager that's the difference, people are interested and care, didn't even nobody bother to run. There were some good people who would run, but they didn't want 04:11:00to run against me, because they were already in a leadership role. But, yeah, as far as the outlook, people just not interested. You just talk to them all day and all night. Uh, they hear what you say, but -- but it just don't register. The -- they -- I guess, the old saying, the entitlement, they goin'-- entitled to it, and they goin' get it anyway, whether -- they don't think they got to fight for it, it's been given to them. That's the attitude now.LAPORTE: Well, you experienced the greatest growth in terms of real wages,
purchasing power, uh, number of, uh, hourly workers who could afford to purchase 04:12:00a home. Um, get covered by em -- employee-sponsored healthcare. Today, we are, uh, seeing a decline in real wages for --HOWARD: Oh yeah.
LAPORTE: -- uh, workers at -- at every level of the economy, except those at
the very top. Yet, uh, we -- we don't seem to see the -- the groundswell towards, uh, organizing, or, uh, other vehicles, uh, that would allow workers, uh, to -- to join together and exercise, uh, collective action. Um, do you think that's -- younger people are missing the boat, in terms of identifying with the labor movement as a vehicle to improve their lives?HOWARD: Sure, that's the -- they don't -- like I said, they think it's
just going to come to them, I reckon, because the -- even -- of course, my kids, they were the age -- and they were taught, they know what the unions were. But how many people -- I -- I saw that report the other day, I was reading the paper 04:13:00about what was keeping the economy down was the -- the working people were -- raises was a whole lot less than the higher paid people. Well, an idiot ought to have figured that one out, then ought had to do a great big important study to find that out. The desire of working people, well my grandson -- uh, my granddaughter's -- he's a union member, he didn't, don't -- he don't even comprehend that. He don't know why I -- I'm out here, why I'm still fussing about stuff -- stuff like that. It's just a flat that "I'm not interested."LAPORTE: Yeah. Well, we have, uh, seen throughout history, uh, that when --
04:14:00when people perceive utility, uh, in taking an action, or joining an organization, uh, that the probability that they'll take action or join an organization goes up dramatically. And if they can't identify with the action or organization, they tend to be static, and -- and don't do anything. So, maybe we're at a tipping point in the United States, in terms of the quality of life for working people, and we'll -- we'll see what that -- that next step is. Um, Doyle is there anything else that, uh, you would like to, uh, share, uh, as part of this, uh, oral history interview, uh, regarding your career in the labor movement?HOWARD: No, I don't think so, I think we covered it all.
LAPORTE: Well, Doyle, I want to thank you on behalf of Georgia State
University, I want to thank you on behalf of the Southern Labor Archives, and 04:15:00for the Voices of Labor Oral History Project. You have made a significant contribution to capturing the history of organized labor in the Southeast. Uh, so, our thanks to you, and our thanks to Richard Ray, as President Emeritus. Uh, again, this is, uh, Georgia State University's Southern Labor Archives Voices of Labor Oral History Project. And today, we interviewed, uh, Mr. Doyle Howard, uh, who was the business manager, and financial secretary for the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers Local 84 in Atlanta, Georgia. Uh, today's date, again, is September the 17th, 2014. Uh, my name is Philip LaPorte, and I serve as Director Emeritus of the Labor Studies Program at Georgia State. With that, uh, our interview is concluded, and again, our thanks to Doyle Howard.