KELLY LIMES-TAYLOR HENDERSON: Okay.
SONIA LIMES KELLY: This looks like Nana's ring.
HENDERSON: It is.
KELLY: Is it?
HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.
KELLY: Okay, and when I, when I saw it, I said, "Oh, that looks like mom's
ring," last night.HENDERSON: And what I've found is that because I've been, since mom gave this to
me, I've been all kinds of sizes and the rings always fit --KELLY: Fit?
HENDERSON: Mm hm, no matter what, no matter, I guess --
KELLY: Right.
HENDERSON: -- how big or thin my hands get.
KELLY: And I had, um, this is the wedding band to her very first set.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: And it had another ring, which is, um, same, um, setting, but it raises
up a little bit, so I think, um, from Rahiyl, because act -- I actually got married in this set, because my hand used to be --HENDERSON: Ahhhh --
KELLY: -- four and a half --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: -- and then, um, uh, I, I couldn't wear it anymore, so I, um, had it
sized for a pinkie, and then on Rai's, I think, twenty-first birthday --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: -- is, I gave her one, the --
HENDERSON: You gave her the other one?
KELLY: -- other one.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: So she wears it and she just told me the other day, because her fingers,
you know --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
00:01:00KELLY: She says, "I can't get it on." I said, "Then give it to me."
(laughter)
KELLY: "You already have one!" and I said, "Well, I'll, uh, either we resize or
-- I don't want it to just sit in the box. Give --HENDERSON: Right. Right. Right.
KELLY: -- it back to me. (laugh)
HENDERSON: Right. Right. Right. Or she could put it on a necklace --
KELLY: Yeah, she can.
HENDERSON: -- I guess --
KELLY: Yeah, I guess she could do that.
HENDERSON: -- if she wanted to.
KELLY: I'm trying to get it back.
HENDERSON: If you -- Because it hasn't been resized?
KELLY: No, I resized it.
HENDERSON: Rai's hasn't? Oh, you already resized that one?
KELLY: Mm hm. I
resized both of them so they would fit on the pinkie.HENDERSON: Mm hm. Oh, okay. Okay.
KELLY: Yeah, so, um -- And they're so old that, um, I think anymore to be done
to it might pop the diamonds out or might affect the ring.HENDERSON: Right. Right, right, right.
KELLY: So, yeah, it's, it's true, she could, uh, wear it on a necklace. I'll
think about that, but I'll get it back and put it on my finger.(laughter)
HENDERSON: I don't know. I don't know if you're going to get it back. Good luck.
KELLY: I know.
HENDERSON: But, okay. So, we'll start, and just like, um, with the others, the
way that we're starting this is I just ask, um, for you to tell me who you are. 00:02:00I know who you are, but tell me who you are.KELLY: Um, I am Sonya Kelly, and I am the tenth, uh, child of, um uh I guess of
my mother and my father, uh, Samenia and James Limes. And there were, um five boys and five girls, and I'm the youngest, and I am the baby girl.HENDERSON: Mm hm. Now, I already got it on record with your teacher and the
incident where you were talking about (laughter) typing, but if you could just for a second, uh, talk about your school experience to me.KELLY: Um interestingly enough, um I followed, obviously, nine other children,
and so, um, their reputations preceded me, you know, especially in school. And, 00:03:00um, there's a fourteen-month age difference between your mom and I, and, um so, following her was always -- I wouldn't necessarily say it was a challenge to me, but as far as mom was concerned, that was more or less my measuring stick because Ronnie was um, quieter, and I was very, you know, um, much more extroverted, I think, as a child than I ev -- I grew into being, not necessarily an introvert, but, um, just very cautious and, and just very shy. And, so, um, the, starting with the kindergarten teacher I had, I (unintelligible) probably (engine sounds), okay, probably, um, maybe five of, of my siblings had the same 00:04:00kindergarten teacher before I did --HENDERSON: Oh. (laughter)
KELLY: -- so by time I got to Miss Glover, she already had an expectation of how
I was going to behave and what I was going to be like.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: And that went on through elementary school, (emphasis) especially, if I
was following Ronnie and a teacher.HENDERSON: (laugh) Mm hm.
KELLY: Um, they already had these expectations.
HENDERSON: So how did they, how did, how did, how was it made clear to you that
they had expectations? What did they say or do?KELLY: In the very beginning it would be like, "Oh! You are, um" either, "You're
Veronica Limes' little sister," or, um, "I got another Limes!" or, you know --HENDERSON: (laughter)
KELLY: -- and so -- And when mom would show up for, um, or knew who my teacher
was, you know, they knew that mom was always, always involved in terms of -- she never missed the parent-teacher conference, never, ever missed the parent-teacher conference, always there to find out how her children were doing 00:05:00and what they were doing, and so I don't believe -- And, um, I guess, for us, you know, we were talking earlier about uh when dad told T.J., you know, "You're not going to embarrass the family because of, of the behavior of your siblings. You're not going to be the one that comes, comes along and acts a fool."HENDERSON: (laughter)
KELLY: And, and, mind you, he was the youngest boy and I was the youngest girl,
so, um, I think that, uh, they, they -- I knew, early on, that, um I was expected to live up to, um -- And I wouldn't necessarily say academically, but I would say in terms of poise and behavior, um, and respect and manners and things like that.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: That tone was set long before I even came around.
00:06:00HENDERSON: (laugh) And did you feel like you lived up to it, or did you want to
live up to it or --KELLY: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: I, I absolutely did. Um, I wasn't defiant, by no means, but I had my own
mind and so, um, that was clear from the very beginning.HENDERSON: (laughter)
KELLY: I don't know who you met before, but, "Hello?"
(laughter)
KELLY: "I'm here," because I didn't think -- I, I didn't never see the fact
that, um, anything that I was truly passionate about was wrong. Um, it wasn't, um, anything that was criminal in nature or anything that would put me, wind me in a juvie center or anything like that. Um, if I had a interest, I had a interest; if I didn't have a interest, I didn't have an interest.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: So I, um I never felt pressured. I never, ever, ever felt pressured. I
remember at one point, um your mom and I had this, um, thing when we went to this funeral and we were talking about it on the train coming back, and, um, 00:07:00she, she said, uh I always got what I wanted and she didn't (unintelligible) --HENDERSON: And how old were y'all when this was --
KELLY: When this happened, I had two children --
HENDERSON: Oh, you were an adult.
KELLY: -- and, and -- Yeah, and you and Jason were born.
HENDERSON: And she had two children, yeah.
KELLY: Yeah.
HENDERSON: (laugh)
KELLY: And, um, and so this was in 1983, actually, and I said, "What, what do
you mean? What are you saying?" And she said -- Well, I would ask the older siblings, because they were old and working and things like that, if they come, I would ask them for something, and I always got it. And she would ask and she didn't get it. And I says, "But it's not that I got and you didn't. I wouldn't stop until I got it."HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: So she would ask one time, and if they said, "I don't have it," she was done.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: I could start at a dollar and I'll take you down to two pennies, but I'm
walking away with something.HENDERSON: (laughter)
KELLY: And that was the difference.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: And, so, a lot of times, it would just be, "Here," you know, "just --
00:08:00HENDERSON: Right.
KELLY: -- gets, get out of my way." But it upset me so much that, um, I came
home and called Aunt Terrell because she was in the house with us -- and I think I mentioned that she was the only girl, you know, she was the only sister for us in the home --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: -- until she, she left and got married. And I, I came hom -- I called
her, and I said, um, "Did you ever know that there was any sibling rivalry between Ronnie and I, because I never felt it?" And she said, "Uh, not really," she said, "but if was anything there, mom put it there," you know. And I said, "Well, what'd you mean?" I do remember mom always saying, because Ronnie and I were the ninth and the tenth, and we were um, the last two, um I think probably when Terrell left and got married, I was maybe eleven because I was nine when Ron and Barb got married. I was probably eleven, um, and then Ronnie and I were the only two left in the house, you know. 00:09:00HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: It was just us and mom, because, because, um, dad, a year later, he
passed away. But, um, mom used to always say, you know, especially when it came to academics, in school, "Why don't you be more like Ronnie? Why don't you be more like your sister?"HENDERSON: Mm hm
KELLY: And, and it's not that she was comparing us; she wanted me to you know,
focus on my studies.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: Um, and Ron -- and I was interested in dance. That's what I wanted to do
and --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: -- and I wanted to go outside and play and have fun.
HENDERSON: Um -- Mm hm.
KELLY: And Ronnie, on the other hand, stayed in the house and she read and she
studied and she was always on the honors' roll and um, sometimes when she felt Ronnie needed that break, you know --HENDERSON: Right. Right.
KELLY: -- she would say to Ronnie, "Why don't you be more like your sister?" but
not in, to me, in a competitive way. I don't know if it really affected Ronnie, but it didn't affect me, because I was like, "I don't want to be that way. 00:10:00That's boring," you know, because that's, that's not what I really had a interest in.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: So, I don't, I don't think when, early on in school, that, um, I felt um,
that I had to live up to anything that my siblings had did in, in schools, with these teachers. Um, the only thing I felt that I had to do was to not dishonor my family.HENDERSON: Uh huh.
KELLY: And, and that, um where we grew up, obviously, you know, drugs were
rampant in Harlem, heroin was rampant in Harlem, and so many of their friends and my friends, young, at a very, very young age, twelve and thirteen, um fell, you know, um, um susceptible to that. And, um, I just always knew that I could 00:11:00not embarrass -- not just mom and dad, but I couldn't embarrass them, you know, I could not. So, that's, that's the only if you want to say, quote/unquote, "pressure," that I felt, um, was that, but it wasn't, wasn't, wasn't something that I felt that was forced upon me. It was something that I embraced, you know, um, it was an honor. It was an honor for, for us to be that, that one family -- ten of us, in Harlem, that got out unscathed, you know? And I, I've said to mom, as a grown-up, I said, "How did you do it?" You know, um, especially with all the pressures that they were. And, um, and a lot of that was, um she stayed involved, you know?HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: She wanted to know where we were, where we were going, who was going to
be there, what time we were going to be back. And even though Ronnie and I -- mom had me when she was forty-two.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: Okay, so, when I started going into my teenage years, she was already in
her mid-fifties. Um, but I had them, you know. 00:12:00HENDERSON: Right.
KELLY: I, I had my siblings that, I didn't so much fear them, her (laughter) was
more or less like,HENDERSON: (laughter)
KELLY: I didn't want the wrath of (laugh) of eight people coming down on me. So,
um, yeah --HENDERSON: Mm hm. Now talk more about that, the, the -- And you already did, um,
a bit. Talk more about that, the, the wrath of eight people, for instance --KELLY: Mm hm.
HENDERSON: -- what was that like? Because your, of course, your perspective,
being the youngest is quite different than the ones that were discussed before. So --KELLY: When I say, um, "the wrath," I, I, um that's a metaphor, I guess, for
disappointing them.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: You know, I did not want to disappoint them.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: And it, it's not even such a matter of shame, um, because um I come from
00:13:00a place of addiction, as you know, I'm a recovering alcoholic, so, um this year, actually, is my twenty-second year of sobriety.HENDERSON: Oh, congratulations!
KELLY: Yeah, long time, older than some people!
HENDERSON: (laugher) Yeah, that is older than (unintelligible) --
KELLY: Um, so, you know, I don't really reside so much in putting words to
feelings, today, I don't reside in saying, shaming somebody. That's not, that's, that's comp -- although, when I was younger, I think I felt a lot of that, and most people who, um fall prey to some type of addiction, whether it's, it's eating or eating disorder or sex or gambling or whatever, it's, it's some of that, some of that stuff that's going on, some kind of imbalance that's going 00:14:00on. Um, I felt that um I was never enough, but that had nothing to do with, with um anything that I got from my siblings.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: You know, Nana contributed that a little bit, and now I'll talk about
that if you want me to, but, um -- And it had nothing to do with comparing me to Ronnie, per se. It was, um comparing me to the entire world. Um, but I, I did not want to disappoint them.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: And I honestly think that I probably didn't want to disappoint them more
than I didn't want to disappoint Nana. And I don't, I don't necessarily know why that is.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: Um, but I just, I just -- And, and probably because mom was, um was my
mother, and I was growing up in the streets that my siblings had grew up in, so 00:15:00for me to be in the streets --HENDERSON: And your mom hadn't been in the streets.
KELLY: Right.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: And for me to be in, in the streets, or in that environment and do
something different than they did, when we all got the exact same thing from the exact same person, to me, would have been, um, an embarrassment to them --HENDERSON: Yes.
KELLY: -- or to disappoint them, to --
HENDERSON: Right.
KELLY: -- really disappoint them. You know, I had this woman not too, not too
long ago at work, you know, ask me, uh you know, she, she works in our New York office and, and, um, somebody told her I was from New York, and I said, "Native New Yorker," and she said, "Oh, where?" and I said -- and I usually always say, "I grew up in, uh, Manhattan," and, and now this thing is about, "Whereabouts?" So, there was a time when I was really ashamed to say, "Harlem," um --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: -- because of the stereotype, you know, um, because, automatically, you
00:16:00now are going to decide who I am as a person before you get to know me, because I was raised in Harlem --HENDERSON: Now, can you talk because that's something -- I'm glad you said that
-- that I forgot to ask Uncle Ronald about, because he mentioned the stereotype. Um, but I don't know what the stereotype is?KELLY: Harlem was the ghetto.
HENDERSON: Um --
KELLY: It was the ghetto. It, you know, it was, it was, um a isolated area and
not, not just -- You had Harlem and, I mean, you had Harlem and you had Spanish Harlem, um, but it was, uh, predominately black, and Spanish Harlem was Puerto Rican, or, you know, immigrants from somewhere, and then a little further down on the same street -- we lived on a Hundred Sixteenth Street -- further down on the eastside was Little Italy, you know, where it was mostly, uh, predominantly an Italian, um, community, but if you, if you lived in Little Italy, you was just Italian --HENDERSON: Right.
KELLY: -- but if you lived five or six blocks over, you were poor and you were
00:17:00probably poor, uneducated and, and living in -- and, and such was obviously not the case, um, but, a lot of times, when most people migrated from the south to New York, as dad and mom did, that's where you wound up, in Harlem, because you're usually coming to a relative that lives there. And, and, um dad and mom came to my father's sister, a sister who lived there, so that was home. So, um, and it was an infestation of, um, people living from paycheck-to-paycheck, uh, some much worse off than we were, and, um, and, uh, the Cotton Club and all that -- because at one time, Harlem was predominately white --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: -- and, and as, I guess, more blacks started moving in, the whites
00:18:00started moving out, further out, they started going to the Bronx, where we later moved to, and to Queens and to Long Island, and then now you had prime real estate in New York City, in Manhattan, the prime real estate in Manhattan is Harlem, so, um, we had this, um very festering, um, drug academ -- epidemic, which was heroin, and so, um -- And then there was robberies and, and then there was, uh, people who didn't attend to their kids and, you know, all of that. So it was a stereotype. And what this woman said to me, um -- We had been talking. Now she had no idea. And then, um she said, uh, "Where, where in Manhattan?" and I said, "Harlem," and she said, "Oh!" you know, it was like this pullback, "Oh, really?" and I said, "Yeah, before it was trés chic," because now it's, it's 00:19:00trés chic, you know.HENDERSON: Right. Right.
KELLY: Um, once Bill Clinton opened his office there, now Harlem is -- they call
it "Harlem, USA," because now white people are moving into Harlem.HENDERSON: Right. Right, right.
KELLY: So, um, prime real estate.
HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.
KELLY: And, um so she said, um, I guess she couldn't help herself, she said
(laughing) "I would have never guessed that. You know, you don't, you don't -- she didn't say, "Look like," she says, "I, I would have never guessed that. You don't lo -- uh, uh, um look like someone who comes from Harlem." Something like that.HENDERSON: Mm hm. You were talking face-to-face?
KELLY: Yeah. Yeah.
HENDERSON: Um -- Mm hm.
KELLY: And, um which wasn't -- She just said it, you know, it's, it's not
anything different than I know most people think, and I appreciated that, you know?HENDERSON: Mm hm.
00:20:00KELLY: I, I'd rather you say, say it to me.
HENDERSON: Right.
KELLY: And, um and I said, "Really?" I said, "What, what would one look like?" (laughter) And she goes, "I just I don't know," and I said, "Before trés chic, that is?"
HENDERSON: Right. Right.
KELLY: And, you know, we sort of laughed. I didn't really necessarily take
offense to it but what I said to her is, I said, "Well, maybe that's because I wasn't raised by the streets; I was raised by my mother."HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: And, um that didn't happen too often, you know, um --
HENDERSON: Right.
KELLY: -- it was um one (throat-clearing) -- I said to somebody last week, "What
I didn't necessarily value, probably, growing up," because once I started working in Manhattan and coming home, and we would take the train home, and I'm on the train with all of these other people, like me, you know, professionals that just got off work, and when I had to get off at my stop, which was a 00:21:00Hundred and Sixteenth Street, I didn't really feel proud --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: -- about that, um, because I just felt, you know, now, what did these
people think of me --HENDERSON: Right. Right.
KELLY: -- because this is my stop. Um and I'm not necessarily, um, ashamed of
that, because that was my truth, that's what I felt. But, um, today, Kelly, I mean we by no means were rich or wealthy or very comfortable monetarily, but the childhood I had and the wealth that was at my disposal, you couldn't buy.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: You know, um I grew up in a place where some of the biggest stars of this
generation was right at my fingertips --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: -- you know, which was the Apollo Theatre, that was home to me, every
weekend and every Wednesday night and, um, before the Apollo was on T.V., which 00:22:00it is now. And, um, you know, uh, concerts and, and things like that in Central Park, or even, you know, in Mt. Morris Park. And, um, culturally, all of the different ethnic groups and, and, that we were exposed to --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: -- um, that lived in Harlem. You know, um, the dances, the culture, the
people. We learned their food, you know, um you couldn't buy that.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: You know? And if, if, if I was on Park Avenue, I may have had a doorman,
but I would not have had, um, the life experiences -- not just that I had, but, you know, um, my siblings had. And, um and obviously mom didn't know. I mean nobody knew this is what, "This is what I'm giving you. Look what you have!" you 00:23:00know, um --HENDERSON: Right. Right.
KELLY: And I'm not saying while I was there that I was like, "Oh, yeah. I got
the Apollo right around the corner and look at all these cultural people," but as you, as you grow and you learn and you look at, at life and experiences and what you've, what you've had, um it was unbelievable.HENDERSON: Would it be fair to say that you didn't know that it was any
different anywhere else?KELLY: Um, no. I felt it was different.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: I felt it was different everywhere.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: Um yeah.
HENDERSON: Why?
KELLY: Um the subway told me that, um the television told me that, um, it, it,
it told me that, um I lived in a cesspool. And, and that's, that's when I said where that embarrassment came from is because that's what society said.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
00:24:00KELLY: "Where you are, where those people are, is, is the gutter," you know, um --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: -- although I didn't feel (unintelligible) -- I just felt I was
misplaced. I felt I lived in a place where I didn't really belong. You know, that I belonged somewhere else, although, um when I came from outside of my environment -- um, because when I was outside of my environment, either when I was going to school or when I was working um, I enjoyed that. And when I came inside of my environment, I enjoyed that, but, um, I was conflicted because the two worlds didn't didn't mesh, you know?HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: They didn't see what we saw or felt you know, the outside world, and the
00:25:00outside world was saying that we were, um, less than human, you know --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: -- in my opinion, you know. Um yeah -- And that was the stereotype; that
was the stereotype of growing up in Harlem during that time.HENDERSON: Now could you talk a little bit more about that, because, like I
said, Uncle Ronald touched on it, and I didn't ask him to explain, you're the first that has said anything about, say, like a drug problem in Harlem, or a crime problem --KELLY: Horrific. Horrific.
HENDERSON: -- so do you do you think that the Harlem that you grew up in looked
different than the one Aunt Vernie grew up in, for example?KELLY: No. It was the
same. It was the same. It was the same. And, and, and the one that, um, that, uh uh, all of my siblings grew up in, it was the same.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
00:26:00KELLY: Um there -- even though this, this was going on, you knew your drug
addicts. They were our friends --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: -- um, and it's, it's not like these were people that you didn't know --
they were our neighbors, they were our friends.HENDERSON: Right. Right.
KELLY: Um and there was a community, because the block that you lived in, which
was your home, that entire block was your community, and everybody in that block, whether they were drug addicts or drunks or whatever the case may be, um, we protected each other, and we looked after each other. However, maybe your neighbor's drug addict son, while you was at work is climbing through your window, because he's trying to get something to go sell to get drugs. We had, um a family that lived directly across the hall from us, the Burkells (phonetic) and, um, uh, their daughter was Uncle Ferdie's girlfriend on and off, Noel. He 00:27:00was in love with her. And had a brother, Stanley, and, um -- Uh, Stanley was probably, uh, Ronald's age or Uncle Ferdie's, somewhere around there, and, um, Stanley was a dope addict. And we lived on the sixth floor and, um, the next landing up was the roof, and we always had pets, dogs, and we used to go up on the roof to walk the dog. We'd just open the door and let them go, run around the roof. And we would go up there. We spent a lot of time on the roof. That, that was, um another thing. You know, when you see these, these shows, um -- If you ever watch some of the shows from the sixties or seventies and you would see even, um, Mike Tyson, when they shows his, his bio of him, um -- did Ronald talk about the pigeons?HENDERSON: Hmm um.
KELLY: You know, um, training pigeons. And, um, you know, we saw a lot of that.
00:28:00And, uh, so we would go let the dog up. And Stanley was a heroin addict and his mother and them would not let him in the house when it got so bad. Um, but we knew him, you know. You, he wasn't going to bother us, so he would, um, come up with his other heroin addicts -- these are men we didn't know at all, from a can of paint, but we knew Stanley, and Stanley was like my brother. He was, you know, the neighbor.HENDERSON: Right.
KELLY: Um, and, uh if we go to take -- And this is -- Your, your mom and I -- my
older siblings, yeah, but your mom and I when we were taking the dog out, um we could've been nine, eight, somewhere around there -- very young -- and if we'd hear someone on the landing, we would say, "Stanley, are you up there?" and if 00:29:00he was, and he could've already shot up and really been in a nod, and he'll go, "Yeah, I'm here. It's all right. You can come up." And, um, or if he said, "Yeah," and I say, "Can we come up?" and he would say -- because he may say, "Wait a minute, " and it, the, the "wait a minute" meant he was cooking his dope, because they were up there, they hadn't finished yet. But the "Okay," or, you know, "It's clear," because he, he wasn't going to allow us to see that, you know.HENDERSON: Right.
KELLY: And we would go up and it could be him and two other guys, men, but he
was not going to let them harm us, and nor did we have any fear for him. And we would just step over, he'll go "Heeeey," (imitating Stanley), you know, we're go "Heeey," (imitating young Sonia and Veronica), and we'll open the door, um the dog'll go out and we'd come back in and go downstairs.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: And it was never like, "Whew, Stanley's -- " I mean that was, um, that
was everyday life; that was just our life. And so some of my closest friends, 00:30:00you know, when I got to around the age of twelve or thirteen, um when little kids are trying things -- you may try a cigarette or you, you know --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: -- um, somebody allowed them to, you know, try a little heroin, and they
like it, so they'll try, they'll try, and then I remember my closest friend -- When, when I saw that with my friends -- as I'm sure my siblings were the same -- it, it wasn't a matter like I said, "Okay, I'm not going to hang around them anymore," it just automatically happens, because they're going with whomever they're, they're doing this with.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: And, um, and she said, "You know, I, I, I was getting a chipper," --
that's what they used to call it where, um, she noticed this particular night, she needed, she needed, she wanted, and that's the beginning stages. And she 00:31:00said, "Nope, I can't do it," so she stopped. But all the other kids that were just having a good time, you know, um, wind up becoming straight-up, um, dope addicts, and these are our friends, I mean people we grew up with. So, if you saw them on the street, it wasn't like it was a stranger --HENDERSON: Yeah.
KELLY: -- they were just a heroin addict, they became a heroin addict, so you'd
pass them, and you'd say, "Hey, Linda," (slurred) "Hey, Sonia," and, and -- You know, they may ask you for some money.HENDERSON: Right.
KELLY: "You, you have any change?" or, you know, and you'd just go -- But they
weren't going to knock you over your head and --HENDERSON: Right.
KELLY: -- I, I mean -- So, um, yeah, you know? And, and so that camaraderie and,
and, um, it was no different, you know. Verna was, we were talking earlier today about this one guy that she grew up with, that she had the biggest crush on, and 00:32:00but she, nothing ever came, she just, when she was growing up, she just thought, "Oh, my God, he's so handsome, and he's dressed so nice," and he was this, that and the other, and she, she left, she got married and I guess she came home one day to visit, and, um, when she, she says she saw him crawling on the ground, and she couldn't believe it was him, but he fell into that dope.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: Um -- You know, I, I can never say how life would have turned out, umm,
for me, for me, in particular, because I was, I was the person that liked -- out of all the girls -- uh, Vern had, um, was outgoing, you know, she had her, her Girls' Club and she liked to go out and dance and things like that. Um, the same restrictions -- Mom had a different set of rules for her boys and her girls. And 00:33:00if I say, "Can I go outside?" and she'll say, "No," and I'll say, "Why?" She said, "You went out yesterday." And I say, "Why, yesterday's yesterday!"HENDERSON: (laughter)
KELLY: And she would say, "Yep," and, "No." She said, "Girls do not hang out in
the street all the time." So her daughters was not going to be seen, even though you're little kids outside running around, doing whatever you're doing with your friends, her girls were not going to be outside every day hanging in the street -- it just wasn't going to happen.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: So if you went out maybe two days, you're not out in that street, you're
not going to be known as a "girl in the street," even though you're playing, but she never, ever wanted, you know, that reputation, uh, you know. So, for me, um -- Now my brothers were -- I was more like the guys in terms of partying and 00:34:00wanting to hang out. And my other, my girls, were not. You know, Aunt Terrell was home. She wasn't that way. She was very demure, and, you know, quiet and reserved. Your mom was. Aunt Sadie, like I said, she was like, "I'm out of here. I'm not watching these kids, I'm going, get married."(laughter)
KELLY: I think Aunt Sadie got married when she was eighteen or something like
that and, um -- But Nana, um, was deathly ill when, um, I was three or four and your mom was a year older. And Verna had just got married, you know, um, Lorenzo wasn't even born yet, and mom was sick, bedridden sick. And, um, she drove to New York, her and Noble and while my dad was at work, and she took me and Ronnie, and she took us to Dover, so what -- So, because, you know, we were there, we were little babies, and mommy, Nana was sick. And she took us while daddy was at work, because she knew that if he was home, he wouldn't let us go.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
00:35:00KELLY: And, um, that set a precedent. So every summer, the minute school was out
in New York, her and Noble was there, and then she had kids, with the kids in tow and the big station wagon, and she would pick me and your mom up and we went to Dover, and we spent the entire summer in Dover and came home the weekend before Labor Day with our school clothes, because she sewed. So she sewed all our school clothes. We were matching twins for forever.HENDERSON: (laughter)
KELLY: And, um, so when I say I don't really know how things could have been
differently for me growing up in Harlem, because I never spent the summer in the streets in Harlem.HENDERSON: Ah, oh -- Mm hm.
HENDERSON: You know, because I would have wanted to be the one who was out
there, you know, outside playing. Um, while we were there, the summer of '67, um um, dad was put, my dad was put in the hospital and, um, there was nobody home 00:36:00with mom, so she called and they drove us back home. I was twelve; your mom was thirteen. So, that was the last summer that we left, because that, they brought us home, I think, early, which was August, and then in October of that year, he died. So we never went back. So I think, also, um prior to me um, going outside of Harlem and experiencing, uh, Fifth Avenue and Madison Avenue and and the finer things in life, um, I was exposed to, um, home ownership -- Aunt Bernie, at a very young age, you know, because Dover, where she lived, was really very different. We had our set of friends there. We did things that normally you wouldn't do in the city, you know, like, uh (throat-clearing) we would take our bath, eat dinner, take our bath, put our pajamas on, get all the blankets and 00:37:00the pillows and in the station wagon -- all her kids -- and we would go to the drive-in. And we would watch the movies, if we fell asleep, because the seats were down in the station wagon, fell asleep when we came home, you know, but, um, we loved going to the drive-in -- and, um, and so all of those those different things. You know, we, they went some yard sale or something, Noble got these bicycles for us. I don't know if your mom told you about these bicycles. The wheels on these things were probably like tires, truck tires.HENDERSON: (laughter)
KELLY: The were like this thick, but they worked. She had one; I had one. We
learned to ride a bike and, and if we were in the city, these are not things we would have done --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: -- um, because we didn't have bikes in the city, you know?
HENDERSON: Right.
KELLY: Um, so, there was, um in addition to what we were already given, and Nana
00:38:00hadn't given us at home, that exposure that we had in Dover met that, you know?HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: Um and then when we came back home, uh Uncle Ferdie was married to Nita
and, um and by this time, you know, Ron and Barb -- well, Ron and Barb got married when I was nine. So, and they were living in, um, maybe a nicer area, so we would babysit Linda and Ronnie, um --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: -- their son, Ronnie, Ronnie and I -- And so we always went out and, when
they were living in Dyckman, it was a project, which, if you went there now, you would go, "Ooh, they lived here?" But at that time, it was predominantly white; there was a lot of whites. And we would go up there and shoes would be outside their front door -- you know, people left, it was raining -- and I was like, "Nobody's going to steal these shoes?" I mean, so even though we were where we 00:39:00were -- And Unc...by that Uncle Ferdie and Nita had their house on Queens, so we was always out there on the weekend.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: Um so I don't know I don't know with, just what mom gave us. You know,
eventually, no matter what happens, sometimes you become a product of your environment.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: Um, the other siblings had, in a way, the same opportunity -- not Rocky
-- and it's very interesting. Not Rocky. Once he came from South Carolina, he never, ever, ever left the city, um, or outside of that environment where it is predominantly, say, maybe predominantly black and, and, um um -- I don't want to 00:40:00say "a ghetto," but, you, we, very questionable neighborhoods or areas, ugh --HENDERSON: (laughter) It's okay why are you? --
KELLY: (laughter) But, um, Aunt Sadie left and she went with Uncle No -- uh,
Uncle Melvin, and so your mom -- ah, your mom -- Aunt Vernie was, went to Aunt Sadie, you know, in South Carolina and that's where she met Noble. And so, um, then her and Nob got married and they established themselves. Ronald was following Ferdie, who was became one of the most sought after African-American IT people in Manhattan, Uncle Ferdie.HENDERSON: Oh, wow.
KELLY: Uncle Ferdie.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: And, um, as he got involved with IT, Ronald was riding his coattail, took
Ron and showed him the ropes and showed him everything, so Ron got the exposure 00:41:00to this, "There's, there's this, this is home, but there's that --HENDERSON: Right. Right. Right.
KELLY: -- you know, and I want that." Um, so and Perry left and went in the
military, and so he traveled around the world and saw that.HENDERSON: Right.
KELLY: Terrell was very close to Ferdie, so, and, and, like I said, I followed
her in, in her career path, so, I, I, um, did the same things she did. I went to the exact same high school she went to, um and when you choose that profession, um, you as a black person, I found myself in positions in the company of people that I probably would not have been because I am their executive assistant, and so my exposure to different people clearly showed me a different lifestyle. Well, Terrell started working, so her and, and, um Ronald and, and, um -- and I 00:42:00was a young child -- and Ferdie, every morning, would ride the subway together. Fer -- I had a nickname for Uncle Ferdie, and it was, I called him, "Mr. Fine Dining," and whenever I referred to him with any of my friends, if I'd say, "Mr. Fine Dining," they know exactly who I'm talking about --HENDERSON: Uh huh.
KELLY: -- because, um uh, high school, maybe the beginning of high school, um,
and I started working in Manhattan, Ferdie would meet me somewhere and, and, now, um, I think Ferdie was eighteen when I was born, so he, um would take me into restaurants, I mean five-star restaurants, and, um and, and expose me to food and, um, he was the one that told me how to eat spaghetti and, you know, 00:43:00so, there was a lot that I got from him. And Ferdie was the one and only person that we were exposed to, or that was in our immediate circle, that was making the kind of money and spending the kind of money that he was making, and, um, and to be the boss. You know, and we'd go into his job and he's opening doors, you know, these people, and, and he's their boss, and he's running, and, and that was unheard of at that time. Now, and I'm talking like late sixties, you know --HENDERSON: And I didn't know that that, that that, I didn't know that about
Uncle Ferdie at all. I didn't --KELLY: One, uh -- And he would be at a job and his, his reputation preceded him
and he would get another job and, and I mean, um, unbelievable. Then life happened for him, to him, um, with his, with his contributions. You know, I think some things in life just happens to you, and other things happen because 00:44:00of your participation, you know, we participate in everything, whether we know it at the time or we don't -- we do.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: Um but, yeah -- And, and, so, um, Ron was, was -- Ferdie, uh, was, was
Ron's reach. Terrell was mine. Um I don't know if your mom actually had one, you know. Uh T.J., Ronald was probably T.J.'s because T.J. hung with Ronald, and I hung with T.J.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: Perry was sort of in the military and, um, and even though he was there,
Uncle Perry was, um, as I said to you, uh we were more the artistic side.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: Um, academically, we could keep up, but our interests was -- Now, I
wouldn't, I'm not, I'm not going to speak for Perry, because maybe his was more 00:45:00so. But, um, he wasn't interested in sports and things like that. Perry was just Mr. Cool, you know? He was, he was him. He was just him, wasn't -- And I think we all (unintelligible) and I don't think anybody was trying to be, um, something other than they weren't. We don't, we don't do that.HENDERSON: Right.
KELLY: We never felt the need to compete with each other or be like each other,
and I think that's probably why we just enjoy each other's company so darn much, you know.HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.
KELLY: You know, um, when I started putting together these sibling reunions,
right after mom died, you know, in 2001, and just to have nine people, siblings and their spouse in one house together, grown people (laughter) hard grown people --HENDERSON: (laughter)
KELLY: -- um, for, for six nights and seven days and just laugh and joke and,
and, and we just enjoy each other and I think that's because we are who we are, 00:46:00you know. Um, but, um career path-wise, I, I followed my sister Terrell, because Ronnie and I were so close in age, we were both looking up for somebody to lead us --HENDERSON: Right.
KELLY: -- and Terrell was there, and she did that. Um, and she was there for me
the way I am, and she was there for Ronnie the way she was. I mean she met us exactly where we were and I think, Nana, mom, met all of us exactly where we were. I don't, I don't think, um there was, there were, there were, um clearly, 00:47:00uh (long pause) -- Mom's belief in raising her kids, that was solid and consistent, but, um, she recognized that she had ten children and we were all individuals --HENDERSON: Right.
KELLY: -- and so she, she met us where we were.
HENDERSON: What's an example of her meeting you all?
KELLY: Nana?
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: Um (throat-clearing) well, you know, like where, when I was sharing
earlier, um -- Well, one time, she said to me -- and, and I think this is probably when I was grown, and, and I don't know who I was talking about, and it might have been Tre, because when Tre became sixteen, he became a challenge to me, and, um, she said, "You know -- (break in audio)HENDERSON: Okay, so you can have ten children --
KELLY: She said, "You can have ten children (throat-clearing) and you can love
them all the same, but each one would tug heart differently, because they're all 00:48:00different." And, um even though there were times when mom would say, um , "Why don't you be more like Ronnie?" but that's what I'm saying, I didn't want to read, I didn't want to do my homework, and that's, that was the extent of it, you know.HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.
KELLY: She wanted me to study. And Ronnie studied. Ronnie studied with no
probing, whatsoever, you know. She, she did what she had to do. "Why don't you be more like that?" you know, "Why, why do we have to go through this all the time for you to do your homework?" or, "These just passing grades you're bringing in," because she knew, she knew I was capable of doing, bringing in better grades, but I could care less! Um so when I tested for Science, um, I 00:49:00remember saying to her -- when I was told, I, I passed, and I was like, "Really!"(laughter)
KELLY: "Okay." That, um, I passed to be admitted, and when we were going -- our,
um counseling session in school, the teacher was going around, because by this time, "What school are you going to?" and, "What are you going to study?" and when it came to me, I said, um, "I want to go to Central Commercial," and, you know, "I want to be an executive assistant." And, um, she was like, "What?" I'll never forget it. And I said, "Yeah," and she goes, uh, "That's stupid," and I said, "It's not stupid," and she --HENDERSON: Now, this was the counselor talking to the class?
KELLY: This was
actually, um not the counselor. And I said earlier it was the counselor. It wasn't actually the counselor; it was the teacher. It was our teacher, and, and --HENDERSON: Said that in front of the whole class?
KELLY: The whole class.
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
KELLY: We're going around the room because we're giving -- preparing to make our
selection into school, and I don't remember what class it was in, um, why she 00:50:00was doing this. I, I can't even recall if she was just inquiring.HENDERSON: Do you remember the school?
KELLY: Yeah, I was in, um, um uh, One Twenty, which is James Fenimore Cooper --
HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.
KELLY: -- Junior High School. Same school your mom went to, Uncle T.J., Uncle
Ronald --HENDERSON: (laughter)
KELLY: -- (laughter) and Uncle Perry -- Cooper, it's, we called it Cooper. And,
um, and she said, "That's stupid," and I said, "It's not stupid," and she said, "Well, you're stupid."HENDERSON: Ooh!
KELLY: And I went home and I told Nana. And, um, and even though I was accepted
into Science -- and I don't know if mom really knew what that meant on the, on the scheme of things, um, other than I tested for a school that was one of the leading schools. I didn't even really realize at that time to the extent that, 00:51:00um, this is something that most kids maybe, maybe, or their parents aspire to --HENDERSON: Um --
KELLY: -- Science, uh, Brooklyn Tech where Uncle Perry went --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: -- were two of the schools in, in the City of New York that was, if you
went to those schools, people would look at you and go, "Huh! Okay, she's pretty smart."HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: Um, so I don't, I don't even -- Mom never said, "I think you should go
there. You need to go there, just because you was accepted there." She knew what I wanted. She already had a child that went down that career path and was quite successful and was doing well, which was Aunt Terrell, and she knew, um, that was my passion, you know. Um, and when I told her, um, she called a conference with the principal and this teacher --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: -- and so when I said, uh, she met each one where we were, and she came
in and defended you know, the fact that her child does not get to be called 00:52:00"stupid," because she's making a choice about the school she wants to go to. You may not agree with it. You may feel -- The teacher felt and wanted -- felt that I should be going to an academic high school versus a commercial study high school. Um and, um -- So, in that regard, at least when it, when it, when it came to me, she always met me where I was --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: -- and, you know, I, I wanted to dance. I mean, we um, after I got a
little older is when the Dance Company of Harlem was established, but I was much older at that time, and, um, we didn't know, or I didn't know anything, and there certainly wasn't the exposure to television today to find out anything you want to do and how to do it.HENDERSON: Right.
KELLY: That just didn't exist. So (throat-clearing) um, I didn't know anybody
who was a dancer; I just knew my love for dancing. And, um, you know, and that's 00:53:00all I used to talk about. And what Nana saw, thankfully, probably, is, um -- She said to me, but it was the way she said it, she, which, initially was like a discouragement, one would think, and she said to me, "Nobody wants to see a forty-year-old woman hopping across the stage."(laughter)
KELLY: I mean she took me from fourteen to forty. And I was like, "Well." She
said, "Do something else. Learn something else," and, and there you have it. The truth of the matter is, is, would I have been a successful dancer? I really don't know. But, um, would I have beaten up my knees and stuff? Probably. And, and I wouldn't have had a career.(laughter)
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: But, um, I danced, um, danced for fun. I got into some comp --
competitive dancing which was leisure time --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
00:54:00KELLY: -- um, but not as a career path, and I went on to, um into a career path
that, ultimately, landed me where I am today, which is a nice cushioned, little job --HENDERSON: Uh huh.
KELLY: -- which is completely out of the administrative support area and has
been since like '97 --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: -- you know, into management of one of the largest media companies, um in
the United States --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: -- and, and, possibly, you know, abroad, because we do have property
abroad, by being an administrative assistant, the executive assistant to the president and publisher of the newspaper that Gannett owns on Guam.HENDERSON: Ohhh -- Uh huh.
KELLY: And when I said, "I want to transfer," you know -- But, in that position,
you, you, when, I ran his office, I ran his office administratively, which means I ran the paper. And he travels so much because he was also the, um, director 00:55:00for USA Today, which is a Gannett paper, for the, um, international edition, which was fairly new when I started working there. And, so, he was traveling to Hong Kong and Thailand and Singapore, and he traveled quite a bit. So when he was gone, it was me, you know, I was in charge. So, the, um, the skillset that I acquired, um to go back into just ba -- basically supporting somebody, I had so much responsibility there that when I transferred to the States, and my publisher was actually the one that sent my resume to corporate, and, and they took me in an administrative capacity.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: Um, I had to lose like about seven thousand dollars a year, and within a
year, um I turned my position into something that was more, uh, responsible, you 00:56:00know, taking on certain things. And then the, the field that I'm in, in now, which is equity comp, uh, you know, my boss said to me, "We're going to be taking over something from our legal department that I think may be right up your alley." And, and that just led to, you know, now since '97, I've been doing what I've been doing. But, um I wouldn't have had that if I was dancing, if I was sort of hopping around.HENDERSON: (laughter)
KELLY: Um, for Perry, uh, Perry wasn't in sports, um, and he'll shared this with
you, so, you know, I don't want to get into his story, um, he liked to draw, you know, he was, he was different. T.J. was in sports. Dad was more, when that, like, "Why don't you be more like -- " Dad was more that way with Perry than -- When mom said it, it was different. And, um, she supported Perry. You know, she 00:57:00met him where he was. Um, and by whatever means necessary, she provided that. You know, when, when things started to go a little south for him in New York, um, she got him out and sent him to Dover, so that he could finish school. So, um for all of us, you know, I know that, um Uncle Ferdie, when things started to change for him, um and we believe it changed when him and his wife separated, and, uh Lisa, his daughter, was his world -- absolutely his world. And when they separated, he, um, didn't take advantage of his visitations, so, uh, Ronnie and I would be waiting for him to go pick up, his, his weekend, go pick up Lisa and bring her to mom's house, and he wouldn't show up, or he would show up with his girlfriend and no Lisa. And that went on for awhile and then he, I guess, 00:58:00eventually, his wife, ex-wife just picked her up and took her, and he didn't know where they went. And he never -- She was five. He didn't see her again until I called to say, "He's dying," and they flew in on his deathbed, and he saw his daughter. Um, from five to a couple of days before her thirtieth birthday.HENDERSON: Oh, my goodness.
KELLY: So over these years, I just think, um, the guilt and he started, um
drinking a little more and not keeping up with his hygiene and, um, and some of these places that he worked, you know, with his staff, they loved him loved him and everybody loved Uncle Ferdie -- well, you know that.HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.
KELLY: And, um, you know, T.J. went to his job a lot. I think T.J. and Ronald,
they would all meet up. And I think once or twice, you know, the staff said, "Look, your brother," you know, "is unkempt," and -- And so he would cal -- go 00:59:00to Nana's, and, at one time, we were all sitting around talking about, um, contributing and supplementing mom's, um, Social Security, and what always come up for some people was, um, "What is he going to do? Not as long as he's here." So the funny thing is, mom wasn't going to put any of her children out --HENDERSON: Because he was staying with her at the time?
KELLY: Yeah.
HENDERSON: And so what, what time -- what year was that, approximately?KELLY:
That was in -- We'd, we'd had many meetings over the years, but that was probably in, like, '78, you know?HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: Um, maybe somewhere there. Um, it was probably '71 -- we moved to Castle
Hill in '71, out of Harlem, into Castle Hill in '71 and I graduated -- that's 01:00:00the year your mother graduated from high school, then I graduated from high school in '72, so it was around that time when, um, he was having his visitations with Lisa, that he was not, um uh, taking advantage of.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: And, um so I would say that -- and maybe she was a little older, I don't
know, now that I'm thinking about it. Nope, no, no, no, because I was thinking she was born the year dad died, which was '67. Yeah, so she was about five.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: Yeah, '72 (unintelligible) -- Um so, uh, he, he didn't start living with
mom, consistently, until probably around '76 --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: -- when Tre was born --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: -- um, because I was living with mom and he was there and, and I don't
01:01:00think he ever left. And, so, when we would have these meetings, um, sometimes it would get like "Why isn't he doing anything?" and from that point on, he worked, but, um, eventually, I think, when he was let go and the, how his reputation preceded him, before, it, it did the same way --HENDERSON: Right. Right.
KELLY: -- you know? Um, that industry was very small, when you're looking at the
top, you know, IT person, and so, um, he wasn't able to get a job, so then he started getting odd jobs and I think Uncle Perry was helping him getting some security jobs and doing different things, but, um, um -- She met him where he was, you know, for -- No matter how we felt about it, you're, you're a grown, functioning man -- that was her child, nonetheless. You know, um, and she wasn't 01:02:00going to have him out on the street. And the funny thing about that is, and what I know this for myself to be true today, is, um he wind up being her caregiver, you know, so, those times when some people were very like, "You need to get out! You need to get out!" that's because Ronnie was still living in New York. I was still living with mom, but once I moved, you know, into my own place, Ferdie was there. T.J. moved on, got married. You know, um, I moved to Guam (laughter), your mom was in Delaware, where I went to Delaware before Guam, who was there, but Ferdie? And, up until he died, so, um, he wind up becoming her caregiver. Now, what I want to say about Nana (throat-clearing) her kids were never wrong.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
01:03:00KELLY: They may have been, but, um in her eyes, they were always right, and she --
HENDERSON: Talk about that more. What --
KELLY: (throat-clearing) There was, um um for instance, the situation with, um
Ferdie, where I said we all participate in things that we may do wrong -- Um, and was it wrong for Nita to take his daughter? Yeah.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: Um, but the role he played is, he didn't take advantage of those
visitations --HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.
KELLY: -- you know, and, and then he lost them, and she was gone. But mom
wouldn't see you know, what Ferdie did, what the domino effect for that to happen, and, um -- You know, there, in, in, with, with, I would say, any of us, 01:04:00and, um, that may have had spousal conflicts, um mom would always side with, you know, her child --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: -- you know? She don't care. She, she (laugh) just didn't care. Whether
you, you need to come over here -- So the story would sort of be like, um, he, she, they, you know, uh, "Yeah, the wife wouldn't do so and so," or, "The husband -- " -- and, I, I'm, I'm making up --HENDERSON: Right.
KELLY: -- that's, you know, how it would sound.
HENDERSON: Right.
KELLY: Um, yeah, but she, she was a mother that, um did whatever, ever -- I, I,
I was in a lot of, um, anything dance-related in school, and I was in, um these 01:05:00dance groups and we didn't have a lot of money. And I remember that, um, I needed, um an outfit -- whatever the team decided, and, and, these girls, the interesting thing about it is some of the best-dressed people I've ever seen in my life in my style of dress I got out of the girls from Harlem.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: There was this shoe store, Fred Braun -- I think your mom and I were
probably in our twelfth grade before we got a pair of Fred Braun, and these girls in junior high school, they, every year, they had two, three pairs, you know, start wearing out, and these were nice leather flat shoes. Um, they were the thing to have, but, um, but I also know in the environment that they grew up with, they were probably talking to some drug dealer.HENDERSON: I was going to say, how did they get --
KELLY: Yeah.
HENDERSON: -- the (unintelligible) --
KELLY: That's how it is. Or it was their mother was the drug dealer -- excuse me
-- or something like that, and so these girls, um, when I grew up, it was also a 01:06:00time when, um leather was, and suede, was huge -- leather pants and jacket or skirt and jacket -- and the girls wore these all the time. I mean, how they got this, I don't know. So, these girls that I was in this dance group with, um were -- I was in the seventh grade when, when it started, and they, a lot of them were eighth and ninth, and, um, and they, we were going to wear these brown, had to have these brown pants, a certain brown, and this certain, uh, somebody bought a, a swatch, material, um, color, like a canary color top. And so I said, "Mom, we need this," and we didn't have much money. And, um, she took me to Alexander, which was the department store downtown, on Fifty-Ninth Street, down on the train, went down to Fifty-Ninth Street, and was looking for, got the brown pants and was looking for this top, and we're looking through all the yellows, and nothing matched, nothing matched. She's, "We're going to get this 01:07:00white blouse, and I'm going to dye it," and I'm like "No, you can't!" And she ignored me and bought the white blouse and went to the store -- I was, I guess I was in school -- and got the dye, and she dyed this white blouse. My blouse was the only one that matched the color of that swatch, only. So, when, when, um -- She didn't drill, um, "You've got to be this," or, "You've got to do this," um, but whatever we wanted to be, or whatever we wanted to do, as long as it was right, she was, she was your biggest cheerleader, but she didn't verbalize that, you know what I mean?HENDERSON: Right. Mm hm.
KELLY: She didn't like, "Oh, you were so good in that dance!" She didn't -- I
remember once, and I remember this, oh, my God, Kelly, today when I think about it, my eyes just sorta -- It touches me so deeply because, um I don't know what 01:08:00dance, whatever, and we needed a little white skirt, like, you know, a little short thing, and we didn't have any money, um no money. And she went in her trunk and, um, had some material, you know, different materials, because, at that time, Miss Green, which was our next door neighbor, was always sewing gowns and stuff for mom. She was our, our seamstress, you know, ever. And, um, she got this material and laid out, took some measurements from me, and laid this out and she made me this skirt by hand.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: You would never, ever have known that -- And she sat up one night and she
made this skirt. And so when I showed up for school and needed what I needed to have, we had it.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: We always -- And Verna and I have talked about that to this day, you
know, um how she did some of the things, because we really did not have -- I had 01:09:00more of -- Oh, I guess there was more expendable cash when Ronnie and I came along, because all the other kids were basically out of the house --HENDERSON: Right.
KELLY: -- but at, at their age, where now, now they did more, have to do more of
the hand-me-down stuff and things like that than, than Ronnie and I did, because between, um Ronnie and I is T.J. T.J.'s five years older than Ronnie, and almost six older than me, and then to him is Terrell. So Terrell was almost a grown woman with boobs and stuff when we were younger girls --HENDERSON: (laughter)
KELLY: -- so we wasn't using her things, and then right, um, over Terrell, it
was two boys.HENDERSON: Right.
KELLY: So, um -- But, yeah, she, she just, um, each one of us, each, each, each
one of us. You know, I don't know if Aunt Vernie told you about the time when her and Sadie decided to perm their hair --HENDERSON: (laugh) Hmm um.
KELLY: -- and they put some perm in it and it took it all out. When they'd wash
it out, it was out, and they called mom. They're grown; they have kids; they're 01:10:00adults now.HENDERSON: Oh, they're adults. This is when they're --
KELLY: Yeah! Grown, grown, grown! They called mom and, um, "Oh, my hair's
(unintelligible)." And Vern said mom just said, "Uh, send me the color," you know, the hair color. I guess they put it, what pieces of hair they have, uh, you, you can ask her about that story, and sent it to her, and she took it to -- Vern said, "How does she even know these thin -- ?" It, it's not like we even knew who she knew.HENDERSON: (laughter)
KELLY: And she had, uh, wigs made --
HENDERSON: Ohhh --
KELLY: -- to match -- and Aunt Sadie was a redhead. You know? And Aunt Vernie
wasn't -- her hair was dark, but it wasn't black -- matched their hair to the tee. She tell you that story?HENDERSON: (no audible response)
KELLY: Mom had these wigs made and sent it to them. So, um -- And no matter what
01:11:00age we were, you know, um, it just she just, we, we, you'd just tug at your heart.HENDERSON: And why do you think why do you think she was that way?
KELLY: Nana?
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: I don't think, um, she -- You, you give what you get.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: Um, and it, unless you break that cycle somehow, and if you know to break
that cycle. So, um Nana's family wasn't really a warm and fuzzy, cuddly, um, affectionate family.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: You know, the Wilsons to me were very cold um, although they loved each
other --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: -- um, and they loved each other because they knew, maybe they knew
because, "These are my siblings. I'm supposed to love -- (laugh) you're supposed to love me. And this is our mother, we're supposed -- " I guess they, um they genuinely loved and cared about each other and was always there for each other, 01:12:00no matter what. But, um, she wasn't a huggy, kissy, "I love you" -- I got, I think probably more of that. Maybe Rocky and I got more of that than in between, and I say "maybe Rocky" because Rocky was older -- or maybe Rocky feel he didn't (laugh) because from what I understand, he had another cousin, our cousin, Billy, who was the same age as Rocky but was really very, very sickly. But, I don't know -- But your first is, is, is you're holding it and, you know, um -- Me, I was, um I was the last and so I was, um uh more maybe more touchy-feely with her. I, I, I, and, and I can only speak for my interaction with her. Um, I, 01:13:00I, um always kept my hands on her, even as a grown-up, you know. Um I would play in her hair, I would sit next to her and play in her hair, play, and so she was always receptive of that, you know. And I, I, I remember in kindergarten, um, kindergarten was half-day, and so when I came home, I had toast and some of her tea, because she would make tea -- it was her lunch -- and, um, she'd give me a little bit of tea, and she would watch, "As the World Turned" and her stories, and she would sit on the couch and, and, I don't know why this is vivid, and I would just sit on the floor in between her legs. And not -- We sat there when she was combing our hair, yeah, but I, that's where I would sit, and I would sort of lean on her leg and, um -- So, you know, she, she had this thing where, that she would do to me -- She always, I have a sharp chin for, and she would 01:14:00just always do this to me. I didn't get much more than that, you know --HENDERSON: (laughter)
KELLY: -- it's not, it's not like I was getting a lot of kissing and stuff, but
she would just, you know -- If I'm sitting, talking to her, and she'd just reach up and, and, and -- But, to me, that was that, um, that, like that touch, you know. Maybe it didn't mean nothing to her, but that's how I took it, you know. Um, or, you know, my, just the cheek, like this, you know? And I do that -- I find that I do that, or did that for my kids, and, um, and one day, Kai, just a week or so ago, he was doing this -- He did this, and I looked at him and, and I turned and he did it again --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: -- and, and, you know, I guess he wanted -- And, and when I'd look at
him, he would just smile. And I -- He did it, and I said, "Yeah, baby," because I'm thinking, "Do you want something?" and he said, um, he said, "That's what 01:15:00you always did to me," and I said, "Oh! Yeah, I guess so." He said, "So, this'll be our super-code. When I do this, you do it to me, and then we kiss." So --HENDERSON: (laughter)
KELLY: So that day he had come over and, uh, and, uh, we had -- So the next
morning, I did this to him, and he said, he'd completely forgot. (laughter) I had to do it three times and I said, "Don't you remember the code?" He goes, "Oh, yeah."(laughter)KELLY: But, um, so she didn't come from an affectionate place, you know. Um, mom
was the second child. She was supposed to be a boy, or her daddy wanted a boy. Um she, um her older sisters -- did you hear Verna a little while ago say she was challenged, thought she was challenged?HENDERSON: (laughter)
01:16:00KELLY: Um, mom was, uh read, and read and read and read, and she told me about,
um, she would read anything that she could get her hands on, and they had this big furnace, um, and she stood up on the -- I guess a stool or something. She had to clean it or sweep it out -- I don't know what it was. I can't describe what it looked like, on -- only what she said. And when she got up there, um, it was a newspaper up there, and she got excited and she started reading this newspaper, and I guess fell and she burnt her hands and she got her butt whipped.HENDERSON: Oh --
KELLY: -- for reading the newspaper instead of cleaning.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: Um and --
HENDERSON: Now when was -- When -- Did she ever say how old she was?
KELLY: I'd -- She was a child, because she was -- She wasn't -- And, and, I'm
thinking maybe she was I don't even think she was a teenager, or, you know, she 01:17:00may have been around eleven or twelve -- I guess maybe old enough, at the age where you're starting to learn how to clean or do things. But she needed a stool to climb --HENDERSON: Right.
KELLY: -- up to get on this high thing and, and, you know, she, um, talked about
the newspaper. So she's the second of ten, so, you know, eight followed, and, um I guess, within that household, itself, it, they're, they are um a different breed --(laughter)
KELLY: You know, I, I, when Nana was, um, right before she died and I was going
to Dover more frequently and, um she was sitting at the kitchen table and we 01:18:00were talking and she said, um, "You know, I had this thing when, when the dead come to visit you, you curse them," and she said, um, you know, uh -- I don't know if she said, "Mamma," she dreamt mamma was coming or something. She said, "And I told her," and I mean her, it was, Aunt Vernie and I was there, it was almost sad because of not so much how she said it, because it was, um very forceful, but she said, "I told her, 'Get the hell away from me. I don't want you,'" and she said, um "You didn't never want me before, so why you want me 01:19:00now?" and that was -- So, I don't, I don't think she ever really felt --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: I knew she knew her mom loved her. I knew she knew that. Um, but whatever
it was that she needed, as we all need something, you know, and, and I needed something. I know growing up, I needed. I know now what I needed -- I didn't know then what I needed -- um, that you, you just don't get, and, um so --HENDERSON: How do you know that she knows that she was loved?
KELLY: That she was loved?
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
KELLY: Um --
HENDERSON: By her mother.
KELLY: Probably because (long pause) probably because of, um (long pause) -- If,
01:20:00if, if I didn't have that interaction with mom, like I, like I said, you know, or me maybe putting hands on her, and she, and mommy wasn't, um, that kind of, "I love you," "Oh, my baby, you're -- " or -- If you'd been away for a long time and you come back, oh, Lord, you'd know how much she loves you, because the howling and the (unintelligible) and the crying, but just on day-to-day day, so I would probably say it was, it was, in a way, very similar where, um when your needs are met, you know?HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: And I know there's probably been, um uh, when you're provided for --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: -- whether it's your mother or your siblings or any family member, you
know all that is coming from a place of love --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: -- um, not necessarily obligation. Um, because the obligation may be
01:21:00there, but it's the way, you know, that, that when you receive that. I think anybody, um, that's probably, in my opinion, probably, um, one of the gifts of God that we receive is that we recognize that, and somebody doesn't necessarily have to say it, although it's nice to hear it, especially from your significant other.HENDERSON: Right. Right.
KELLY: And it's nice to hear it from -- you don't necessarily require that even
from your siblings, although the (emphasis) older we're getting now, we're, we're more, before we hang up, is, is, is saying it.HENDERSON: Right.
KELLY: You know, like not too long ago, I think I said to T.J. -- you know,
because he and I are close, you know? I can't even imagine, um life without any of my siblings, to be perfectly honest. But there are some of my siblings that 01:22:00that, um -- Uncle Perry and I, very, all the time, the call is just, "Love you," and then the other siblings that -- it's there -- But like when it, it -- Aunt Vernie, when we hang up, I don't say, "I love you," but I'm, I made it a point not too long ago, you know, to say to, um, her and Uncle T.J., I said, "We don't say it, but, you know, you need to know how much I love you." You know? I, um say it to your mom, I think, more.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: And, and there's part of that, also, um could be that, you know, growing
up, Ronnie and I were close, we were close in age, but we weren't really, as close in age as we were, we weren't really close, because our lives were so different. Um, and then it seemed like the older we got, the more of a 01:23:00separation there is. There's more, probably within the past four years, of us coming, coming more together. So, um whenever I talk to her now, it's just very easy, um, to say it, you know, because that's something I need her to know.HENDERSON: Right.
KELLY: Um (long pause) and I wouldn't say that Uncle Perry doesn't know that,
and I need him to know that. It's probably because he says it, so readily all the time --HENDERSON: Right. Right. Right.
KELLY: -- you know, he, he always does, "Now, I love you," " Love you, too," you
know, um -- But, so, I, I, I there was some things growing up, like I said for Nana as a child, and then there was that whole um, identity thing of what or who her parents felt she should marry, who she should be with, and she chose my 01:24:00father, um and she heard from probably her jealous older sister, that, um, you know, uh, when things got rough between her and dad in New York, that, um the message got back to my mother that my grandmother said, "Well, she can come home, but she can't bring his kids."HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: Um, that's something I don't know at what age that I first heard it, but,
it, it clearly said to us that we're not good enough for this family.HENDERSON: Who would you have heard that from?
KELLY: Nana.
HENDERSON: Oh, she would've said it --
KELLY: Oh, yeah.
HENDERSON: -- to y'all?
KELLY: Uh, well -- I don't even remember at the first
time -- I, I think the first time she said it -- I don't think she said it to me. I may have heard, overheard her talking on the phone.HENDERSON: Right. Right.
KELLY: As a grown woman -- me being a grown woman -- she said to me what was said.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: Um, now when she said it before, I don't know if she was talking to one
of her sister or her nieces that she was close to, um, or one of her older kids. 01:25:00I have no idea. But I remember that. And I don't remember how old I was the very first time I heard it. Um, I don't think I was a little bitty child, but, um -- And I don't even think I was, that I heard that I don't think I heard that before my dad died, because he died in October of '67 and that Christmas, we went down South, and that was the second time that we had ever been there since we were there, um, for my grandmother's, um, fiftieth wedding anniversary in 1959, I think it was --HENDERSON: Um -- Um --
KELLY: -- and I was five. So, mostly, my mom's family came to New York, you
know, and we -- and Karen came every summer, you know, and stayed with us. And, um, so I think I was, I was probably, maybe, late teens or um, you know, maybe 01:26:00early twenties that, that I, I heard it, but I, I don't remember the first time I heard it.HENDERSON: But when you heard it, you knew, then that gave you well, a line was
drawn?KELLY: Yeah, I think so. I think so. Um and I, I didn't have any -- There
was certain cousins, like my cousin Trella that died, that I was extremely close to.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: Um and, and I had a cousin, Randy, that I was really close to, and there
was some other cousins that I, I loved them, and I liked, but, um, I didn't have any -- as my mom's siblings were dying off, you know, and even her parents, it, my, my heart broke for my mother, but I didn't have any feelings about it, what 01:27:00-- one way or another. We didn't have a relationship with them --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: -- so hearing it, I didn't, um feel, uh, betrayed or unwanted or, it was
more about how did she feel. I just said, "Huh fine by me."(laughter)
KELLY: You know, it was, it was -- Because by that time, there was no
relationship, so, it, it didn't really matter.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: Um and, and what, what I, what I know now is that, um (long pause) it may
have been said in some form but it may not necessarily have been said that way. Um you know, because anybody would be I think any mother, um, might have said -- 01:28:00especially if your daughter's with somebody you didn't really approve of, you would think by that time she would have been okay with my father, but, um you know, when -- Like I said, mom was like, her kids, I don't care what was going on, and if she's calling her mother saying, "Blah, blah, blah," and, "He's not doing this," and, "He's running the street and not giving me money," or whatever the case may be, and, um and her mother was, was getting money to her -- Um, because I think it was sort of a three-way conversation, you know. Um, and might have said, I'm not sure my mother asked to go home, because in some way, I don't think my mother was, was asking to go home, "Came I come to you?" leave my dad in New York. Um, so the mother might have said, you know, uh, "She's, she's my daughter. If she want to come, she can come, but she can't bring his kids," 01:29:00well, she wasn't speaking to my mom's half, she's was speaking to my dad's kids.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: You know, because my dad is the one that ge -- got her daughter pregnant
with all these kids and how he's not taking care of her.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: So, um I don't know, um, if my mom realized that when she died. You know,
today, I don't really put a lot of, um -- I repeat the story, because that's the way I heard the story, but I, you know, I also know enough to know that it may have been said, but it, it was probably repeated out of context --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: -- especially if it came from her older sister.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: You know.
(laughter)
KELLY: Yeah. It could've been real warped.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: So, you know, I don't know.
HENDERSON: When you say that you knew that there was, there were -- um, I'm
trying to remember how you worded it -- like there were some things that you needed, because we all have needs in our relationships --KELLY: Mm hm. Mm hm.
HENDERSON: -- and there's some things that you needed, um, and then you
connected Nana with that need.KELLY: Mm hm.
01:30:00HENDERSON: Can you talk more about that, if you want to?
KELLY: Her need or my need?
HENDERSON: Yours.
KELLY: Um um, oh well, for my need, um which, ultimately, led to me drinking --
and the interesting thing about, uh, I have to say, preface this with, I would never had embarrassed or shamed my family by getting involved with heroin, but, clearly, alcohol was acceptable.(laughter)
KELLY: And it was in our household --
HENDERSON: Right. Right.
KELLY: -- and, um, my father drank, and, you know, um, my dad was an alcoholic.
He died of cirrhosis of the liver even though his birth certificate says "liver cancer." Um --HENDERSON: His death certificate?
KELLY: His death certificate.
HENDERSON: Mm hm. Uh huh.
KELLY: And, um, what a lot of people don't know is, um alcoholism is genetic,
01:31:00um, addiction personality is genetic, and so on both sides of our family on, um dad's side and mom's side, um um, there is, um, alcoholism. So you, one is only primed, you know, for the taking if, if they feed the beast. Um, in our household, my brothers drank, my sisters didn't. I did, because, like I said, I was more like my brothers, you know, and I, I followed my brothers, and so I fed the beast. And, um, once you, once you awaken it, it's awakened. Um, I was born a large child, but um as I was growing up, I was always petite -- always, always 01:32:00petite. And, um even though your mom and I was like Frick and Frack, she was always a little thicker, you know, a little fuller. And, um, Nana started taking me um -- because all the other kids in school were much larger, you know -- and so Nana started taking me, um, to the doctor to find out why I was so petite, and so, okay, you know, "She's anemic," so then I was taking horse pills -- and mind you this started probably when I was in kindergarten, around that age range. And, um and then they would run these tests and they would get this result. And the doctor, I would have to say, um, I recall Dr. Ashman (phonetic) was our family doctor, he would say, "She's fine," you know, and mom would ask a 01:33:00question and um, he would say, "Well, we could try this test." So, really, throughout this entire time, he was trying to appease her.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: Meanwhile, back at the ranch, I was being abused by the medical
profession. So I didn't, I, I was not physically or verbally abused, but I was being abused by the medical profession, um, at the prodding of my mom and a physician who could not say, or did not say, "We don't need to do this."HENDERSON: Right.
KELLY: And I mean any and every kind of test that was possibly run on me was
run. When I was about twelve or thirteen, um -- maybe twelve -- the tests went so far as them taking marrow out my bone.HENDERSON: Really?
KELLY: Mm hm. It was the most horrific experience of my life.
01:34:00Um, they had -- took it out my back, so they held me down, um, because I couldn't move and they could not numb it enough where you don't feel the pain --HENDERSON: Right.
KELLY: -- and it felt like a big screw was being punctured into my back and I
was -- Nana was in the visiting room -- and I was hollering, and, finally, it's done, it's over with. And when we showed up at the doctor (throat-clearing) um, for the results, he asked me, with Nana, um, sitting there, "Where did they take it from?" and I just looked at him. And I was not happy. And I said, "From my back," and he goes, "Oh, I wanted them to take it from the chest cavity," which is where you get the best result of anemia from your chest cavity. And he was, I 01:35:00thought he was joking, and I was like, "Yeah, right." Well, thank God, he didn't put that on the, on the order. And so, um, I became friends with, um a girl, around that age, named Linda, who was acutely anemic. And, in talking to her, she had three of these tests and all was --HENDERSON: Oh, my gosh.
KELLY: -- taken out of the chest cavity, and that's how I knew that's where the
better results were. So, um, my period didn't start, I didn't start --HENDERSON: Okay.
KELLY: I didn't start menstruating. Um, I started having gynecological exams.
Um, a virgin, obviously, but, um, Nana had to sign permission, because that's how young I was, to find out why my period didn't start. And, um they put me in 01:36:00the hospital for two -- they, they, still some more tests, um, they felt that it was best to admit me so they could run these series of blood work and God knows why they wanted to do, and I said to mom, "They're not taking any marrow out my bones." I mean, I -- And I says, "You make him to stop." They're, "Nope, nope, we're not going to do that." So this one night, maybe around, after, it seemed to me after doctor's call -- I was fourteen at this time, uh, thirteen going on fourteen, something like that -- and, um, the doctor came in to examine me, to give me a vaginal exam, and the first thing I said is, "Did my mother sign the permission slip?" because I knew I was underage. And, um and he said, "Yes, we have all the documentation," and started to examine me. Well, while he was examining me, and the nurse is there, he's asking me, you know, um, "Are you a 01:37:00virgin?" and I mean this man has his hands in me, and I'm like, "Yes!" and he's saying, "No, you're not. Tell the truth," and, "I don't feel your hymen," and I said, "Get off me," and I called Nana and told her, and she came and got me. You know, I don't know if she raised the roof with anybody or she didn't, um but I, at that point I said, "That's -- You're done. You're done." But what I learned, um from the time I was five (long pause) subconsciously, I was being told that something was wrong with me. Nana never said that, but she would keep taking me 01:38:00someplace to, to get me fixed, you know, and you're, it's, it's all under the guise of medically, you know, "Why is she so small? Why is -- " I felt fine. I looked fine. I was petite, even to this day, but, um, all was done under the guise of, "She does not look like her sister. She does not (unintelligible)." So, what this said to me, or I said to myself, eventually, that I was not okay. So, um when I was fourteen, and had my first drink, everything was okay. See --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: -- when I, when I started, I knew no matter what, I had felt about
myself, um -- Because I -- You know, the funny -- the, the funny piece is that I always felt that I was special in my own right, but I felt that when people 01:39:00looked at me, they saw something other than what I was feeling, and I, it's not that I chose to believe what I thought they were seeing, um or, obviously, I made this up, because of the fact that Nana kept taking me, trying to figure out what was wrong with me. So what was wrong with me? So, um -- And that's where my disease led me, you know, um -- Clearly, I, I learnt all this in recovery, and, and, and working the Steps, but it wasn't until my seventh year of recovery that I went to, um the Caron Foundation's, Pennsylvania, and I voluntarily took -- I wanted to take, because I was going to, to therapy. I had a therapist. And I was 01:40:00walking, talking through some stuff, but something -- You know, I would go once a week. I was going once a week for two years and, and you go and you start just talking things through and, and I wasn't getting to the core. I just -- It, it wasn't, because whatever you have bring up, "Oop, time's up. Next week."HENDERSON: Right. Right.
KELLY: So then it's so, um -- I learnt that, uh, the Caron Foundation is, is one
of the, world-renowned treatment facilities and it's, it's, it's treatments for alcoholism, for drugs, for smoking, for whatever. And they had a five-day inpatient treatment for a CODA, Codependence. And, um, somebody -- a woman that was semi-sponsoring me, she went, and when she told me about it, in five days, twelve hundred dollars, and I went in 1999, and, um, in May of '99, and I went and spent those five days and, uh -- It's, it's, it's, basically, all of us have 01:41:00codependent tendencies, and depending on what child you are, you take on the position of that role.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: Vernie is the caregiver.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: You know, um and, and you all have different -- people have different
roles depending on the dynamics of your household and, um so working through that stuff -- Well, each one of us was assigned, uh, your, your therapist and you basically go over, um, semi-histories, and so they had what was called psychodrama sessions. I love this kind of stuff. And in these sessions, we, you're in a small group. It was only like nine of us in the group. And as each one is dealing with -- Like one guy was in there -- A lot of people that are there were there were spouses or parents of maybe people who had other 01:42:00addictions, and then like me there were some people in there that just wanted to work on their self. And, and one guy, he was told at a very early age, almost abusively by his mother that boys don't cry. I don't know, remem -- recall what happened to him, but he never cried and couldn't cry -- even with sadness, he couldn't cry. And all he wanted to be able to do was break whatever that was so that he could cry.And, um so, for me, it was, I was finally able to call a thing a thing. I know
you've heard that saying, you know. I never, ever wanted to accept let's say that Nana did something to me. The truth of the matter is she did. That didn't make her a bad parent. She did the best she could with what she had. Um, but I was abused by the medical profession --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
01:43:00KELLY: -- at, at her prodding, because something was wrong -- she felt something
was wrong. And, um, so during my psychodrama, it was, that's when they place somebody in front of you and somebody was the medical profession. I had Nana, I had your mom, and I had Dr. Ashman. And, um, and your mom was only there because she was there with me during that era. Um and I didn't really have a, a, too much to say to Nana, other than what was wrong with me. You know, "What was wrong with me?" Um, but Dr. Ashman got his ass chewed out.(laughter)
HENDERSON: (laughter) Mm hm.
KELLY: You know, and the funny thing about it is, though, my experience may have
touched on something with someone else, as other people were living their experiences. One boy, in particular, helped me clearly see things, how my alcoholism affected Tre. You know, Trey could probably say it to me, but -- And 01:44:00watching this kid go through what he went through talking about his dad, you know, always walking around with a beer, and how that affected him and that kind of thing. Well, um the gift to myself to go through that took me to a completely different place -- I was in recovery when I did it, obviously -- took me to a completely different place that when, a year later, when Nana died, I there was no stuff.HENDERSON: Right.
KELLY: There was, there was just no stuff; it had been dealt with, and I didn't
have to deal with it with her.HENDERSON: Right.
KELLY: You know, one of the things I learnt is, you don't get to spew your stuff
on somebody else to make you feel good.HENDERSON: Right.
KELLY: You know, go deal with it! And way after that, I learned from Verna that,
um and we was just talking about you know, um mom and her little tricks or 01:45:00things like that, and Verna happened to say, "Like the night you was born." You -- We were talking about the night I was born. And, um, dad, you know -- Mom and -- Dad was a Mason; mom was an Eastern Star, and they both belonged to the Georgetonians which was a club, I mean people from Georgetown (unintelligible) had this club. And, um, they used to have dances, and it was formal. So, as the kids got older, and as Ronnie and I got older, we started going, also. But as the kids got older, they started going to the dances with them, and mom was pregnant with me. I think she was like eight months pregnant. And, um, dad was at the dance with Uncle Rocky, and dad's sister, her, which we called "Sister." I don't think she particularly cared for my mom. Um, she always wanted my father to get with her friends. So, um Vern said, "Yeah, your mother was slick, so she 01:46:00went and drank this tea that brings on contractions," and --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: -- here they came and here I came! So, they had to call the place, and
dad had to come home. So I said, "Well, I'll be damned." So -- See, you never know why (unintelligible) -- I, I, what I did know, when I said what I didn't get from her was that I was just okay. But she wasn't trying to harm me; she was trying to appease her guilt. Maybe she felt by drinking the tea and bringing on the contractions --HENDERSON: I see.
KELLY: -- um, affected, you know, me, why I was small or why this wasn't
happening. So it was, it was, it was -- And, and and that is like so huge because that is her love for me.HENDERSON: Right.
01:47:00KELLY: You know, but it was to the extent where it, it psychologically affected
me, because what is said to me is, something is wrong. Now, clearly, as a child, I never heard her say, "Girl," you know, "I drank this tea and the contractions came early. So I just need to take you to the doctor to make sure you okay."HENDERSON: (laughter)
KELLY: I wasn't going to get that --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: -- but, um, that was, that was her stuff. And we all walk around with our
stuff. You know, and mom had her stuff and her mother had her stuff, whatever that was. You know, she grew up in a time where her parents were bi-racial. How in the hell that happened that her, she had a white mother who married a black man way back when, you know, um and a brother who took off because he could pass. He was that fair that he was able to pass. So we all come with our stuff, and we just, um pass it on to our kids, you know. And we do the best we can with what we have. So, yeah, I, I think, but I think that um we all know we -- You 01:48:00know, it's, it's like that, um instinctually, you know when somebody cares about you or loves you, and even if it's only in the look, you know, when they look at you, it, it, it (unintelligible) --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: -- but, um -- You know, like I said to Ron, it's funny, coming down in
the car, I said, "You know," I said, "You know, we'll, why we're going?" so Barb said, um uh, "To do the interview." I said, "Well, that's what we're going to do when we're there."HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: I said, "But you know why we going?" And, um, and Ron didn't say
anything, because I was really talking to Ron, but since Barb answered, I didn't want to say, "I'm talking to Ron." Um, and, you know, Barb said, "Nah, I don't 01:49:00know." And Kelly, my husband was sitting there, "What are you talking about?" And I said, um, "We're going to Kelly, because Kelly can't come to us," and Ron said, "Right," and I said, "And because that's what family do." I said, "Because we don't have to come. We could be like, 'Sorry, girl, let's do it over the phone,'" but when you love people, whatever their act is, however big, however small, not matter what it, what it is, um, that comes across, you know? Even being in the supermarket, I might, "Lemme, lemme look for some stuff for her to eat." Now, I'm in Vern's house, what the hell I got that, you know (laughter) but --HENDERSON: (laughter)
KELLY: -- that's -- Do you understand what I'm saying?
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
KELLY: And it's not about what I did, I'm just saying, you feel that from people
when it's there. You don't, you don't -- Sometimes a word doesn't even have to 01:50:00be spoken. So I knew mom knew, um, that her family, there's no doubt in my mind, you know, whack-a-doodle as they may be --HENDERSON: (laughter)
KELLY: -- that that love is there and that is the same for us and every single
person that comes from us.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: Um, and we came from somebody that, um -- And we get, we, we she got what
she got, she did the best she could with what she had. I did the best I could with what I have, and so on and so forth. But, um so -- That's my take on it.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: And out of the ten of us (long pause) I probably have gone, um places
that others have not, and, um (long pause) and I think that's a blessing. I 01:51:00think it's such -- I, my alcoholism is such a gift, because I have a Twelve-Step Program and, and I've had to peel layers and peel layers and the more layers I peel, it's like, "Wow." Um, I know so much about not just myself, but about everybody that, that is in my support, that I've been exposed to as a child, um, or growing up. Um, I wouldn't, I wouldn't have that as, and if I was not alcoholic, because I wouldn't be in a Twelve-Step Program.HENDERSON: Right.
KELLY: I, I mean I just wouldn't. And, um and some of the other things that I
did prior to recovery and after recovery, I've done a lot of, um um, it, it was, it's called, it was called different things, but (unintelligible) was very like 01:52:00a four day intense deep lock in a room, you know, peeling, just layers and box of tissues and -- You know? And, and I, I welcome and like that kind of stuff. Um my siblings, none of them, I don't, I don't think any of my siblings have ever had (unintelligible) though. Um, Terrell, maybe, but she wouldn't, she's never -- And I don't know she, if she -- But, um they're all, all in touch with who they are. Um, and maybe they didn't get everything they needed, um (long pause) um, they didn't get everything they wanted, but we definitely all got what we needed, you know.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: Um, and I think the older we get, you know, we get to recognize it a
little more.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: Mom, mom, mom was, um -- Sometimes when I think about this, I'm a little
01:53:00embarrassed, but proud at the same time, if, if the two, I guess, can coexist with each other, but, um, when we were at the last family reunion in Cape May, the sibling reunion -- and a lot of times, um, you know, when we talk about mom, we talk about when, some of my older siblings, who had like that real disciplinarian, and, um, (unintelligible) the table and, um, uh, knock her up side of the head and Ron talk about one time where you stealing something, she got (unintelligible) and, now she wasn't going to cut off his fingers but he's a little child and he's scared to death (laughter) --HENDERSON: (laughter)
KELLY: -- and things like -- And I, I just got so -- your mom was there. We were
all there. I, I didn't want to hear anymore, and I said, "Tell me something that's right about her." You know, I, and, and they was like, "Well, we -- " and I says, "I don't want to hear it." And I, I, I, you know, people now, we're all sitting around this huge dining room table and all of a sudden, here it's like Sonia's flipped her lid --HENDERSON: (laughter)
01:54:00KELLY: -- um, and because, um there's so much right about this woman and what
she gave to us and supported us -- not to say that we, we weren't deserving, that, so let's talk about that. Let's talk about, you know, Verna, the day and that you came home and, um, you know, mom didn't, she doesn't know -- and she talks about this today, and she, it just brings a smile -- She was, um, I guess, seersucker suits or something and she came home, you know, mom had it laying across her bed or something. She, she doesn't know how mom got the money, but mom knew that all young girls were wearing them, and Verna didn't have one. So, you know, or I, making me a skirt or dying this shirt or, you know, um, went out on a field trip, she had no money to give me, and she said, um, "Go and ask your aunt," which was Sister, and, um, and I did, and, um, she gave me three dollars. 01:55:00And, um, I only asked for one, and she gave me um, three dollars, and I remember coming back home and telling mom, um "Well, she gave me three," I said, "and, um, daddy can have the two for his medicine," because dad needed, he, he drank wine. And, um dad died when I was twelve, so I must have been nine or ten when, when this happened. You know, but -- And, um I don't remember if Sister said, you know, um "Give it to your father for his medicine," or, or, but I do remember saying to mom --HENDERSON: Saying it. Mm hm. Mm hm.
KELLY: Yeah, and, "Here's, here's the two dollars for daddy's medicine."
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: Um, so at that particular time, um there's so much more right about this
01:56:00woman than wrong. Always. And if any one of us -- and, and I don't mean to single my father, because probably have had, um, out things that we feel we, we may have been wronged growing up, we didn't get what we needed or support, um, I don't know, but, um I don't believe anybody's experience was like mine, you know, and, and --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: -- but mine was mine, but I do know, um, that even with that, there's so
much more right than wrong, and, and I just -- And, and I blurted it out, got up, threw my plate in the sink, walked out and --HENDERSON: (laughter)
KELLY: -- and was embarrassed (laugh) that I behaved that way, but (laughter)
but, you know, then it was like, "You, you left before we could say what was good," but, it, it was, it was going on every time something was mentioned about her, it was --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
01:57:00KELLY: And it was like the stuff that we laugh about, I mean we laughed about,
but I just really wanted to hear, um and we were there for Mother's Day. We, we took that trip around Mother's Day. I just really wanted to hear about, um who this woman is that, that brought us into this world that we are now all sitting around this table, celebrating each other, and we're celebrating each other because of her, you know.HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.
KELLY: Um, so, yeah, I embarrassed myself, and I, and I do that sometimes
(unintelligible) --HENDERSON: (laughter)
KELLY: -- (unintelligible) and then I (unintelligible) --
(laughter)
KELLY: "Uh, let them think about that." (laughter) Too embarrassed to come back
in here.(laughter)
KELLY: And I want somebody to come out to say, "I agree with you!" and maybe not
my siblings, but the spouses -- somebody!(laughter)
KELLY: I got it later, though --
HENDERSON: Okay.
KELLY: -- with the exception of Uncle Perry, because Uncle Perry is, um um he's
01:58:00sweet on his mother, man. He is -- we all are, but that boy yeah, he's definitely, Nana is his like biggest, biggest, biggest fan, and so um, yeah --HENDERSON: Now this may seem strange but this is, you reminded me because you
were talking about, um you know, how, how you worked at, at the Center, you worked through a lot of these issues and then a year later, um --KELLY: Nana passed.
HENDERSON: -- when, when she passed.
KELLY: Mm hm.
HENDERSON: I hadn't, I haven't asked anyone else this but can you talk about
your interactions with her in her last year, because I asked, I've been asking 01:59:00everybody about her as a young person and a kid.KELLY: Um (throat-clearing) I think probably the beside myself, the person who
probably would have had, obviously, the most interaction with, with her is Verna, because she lived with her, so, that was the day-to-day. And I traveled from living in (Manassas) um, we got to Dover maybe once a month. You know, I would go up and spend the weekend, um, with her and, uh -- Once I moved back from Guam, um and Ferdie passed away in '97, in May of '97, and by, um going into the -- she had moved to Delaware, so for Thanksgiving of that year, um, I asked her to come to my house and she did. So every Thanksgiving, Noble would --HENDERSON: I, I [was there for that one?]
KELLY: -- (unintelligible) -- and she would come here for two weeks, and spend
two weeks with me. And then the one, um when she was coming, and I think this 02:00:00was, um Thanksgiving of '98, um, when she came up, Vern said -- Thanksgiving of '98? Yeah. Vern said, um, had told me that Nana was experiencing scenes, saying that those kids upstairs, oh, there were little tales that she was telling about, um uh, Noble and Verna was arguing -- they weren't arguing, but, you know, because Verna's got some boyfriend and she's leaving the house and she don't come back, she don't do this, and these are stories that Nana was telling us, maybe (laughter) -- So then, she was telling Verna, "Why do them people, why them kids keep coming down here?" and this is the transition period, and, um so 02:01:00uh, the closet that was in the room, she thought was the apartment door for these people that lived upstairs in the attic, and the kids would come out, and, "They're touching my things," so, um, Vern said, when she was coming to me, Verna said, um told me and said, "Please don't say anything. Just observe her if she wants to talk about it." So, she did. And, um and I didn't, "There, there was no kids in the attic," you know, I just said what -- And she says, "And their parents are never home. They're out whorin'."HENDERSON: (laughter)
KELLY: She was funny. And, um, and I called, um Uncle Ronald and I think, uh,
Uncle T.J. and Uncle Rocky drove to my house and just, I said, "Just come down and talk and spend with -- " and, um -- So that was late '98. And then through (unintelligible) I was (unintelligible) and you, you know, you could just see 02:02:00she was still talking about kids, attic and, and, and this going on, and, um (throat-clearing) uh -- By that time, um, Verna was being more of a caregiver to her. Things, she was always her caregiver, but she was like maybe taking her teeth out and, um gradually helping to clean her and, and I think mom was embarrassed by that. Nana was always very -- She, she was one of the most sophisticated women I knew. That was my first exposure. She was so poised and um 02:03:00even, even all of, of, where we lived, where we lived was just where we lived, you know, and what dad was doing. I, I mean this woman was just, when she walked down the street, it was like the world, you know, it just caught it and here she's coming. And she didn't succumb to her environment. And, um, and so, for her, she just felt degraded by that, even though this was her daughter.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: So, um, as time went on, and I would go down -- I went down, um, one, one
weekend and, um -- And, you know, whenever I'd go down (throat-clearing) Kelly would either drive and drop me or then come back and pick me up, and I would sleep with her, you know, in her bed. And, um, Verna was helping her to, helped her to the bathroom, and when she came out, she said, "Sonia, want to help her in the bed?" and I said, "Yeah." So she had a walker and, right, when I got her in the room, um she turned to me and she says, um, when I was helping her to 02:04:00bed, she says, "I don't want people coming and looking at me like an invalid." And I said, "Nobody is going to -- " She said, "I don't want it!" and I said, "Okay! All right."HENDERSON: (laughter)
KELLY: Nana and I, um, just to step back a, a little bit -- When, before I moved
here from Guam, um, and I came home for a visit, um, and it was just she and I in the house and I, I grabbed a notebook and I said, "C'mon, let's talk a little bit about what you want when you die -- your funeral, who, how, what do you want to wear, where you want to have it?" And she's like, "Okay." And, um, I, "Pink hat," I went through everything, who she wanted to eulogize, what is she wanting to wear, where she wanted to have it, what kind of flowers, um, what was in the trunk, who would get, you know, what? All of that was on this piece of paper. That was 1995, I think. And, um and just put it away, never talked about it. 02:05:00But, um I talked to Nana about everything, even prior to sobriety, I just talked to her about everything. And I remember as she got older, she said to me she, I guess some, some of the things that you think you always want to hear, and she said to me, um "I never worried about you." And I said, "Yes, you did!"HENDERSON: (laughter)
KELLY: I said, "You mean you never worried about Verna?" She said, "No, that's
not the truth," she said, "because I always knew what you were doing or feeling," because, you know, even when I was young, you know -- I got in trouble sometimes for what I said (unintelligible) get popped in the mouth -- Ronnie was a much more secretive, quiet about her life, so she never what she would do. Me, I was just saying, "We're going to the dance and -- " So she said this to, 02:06:00around (unintelligible) which shocked me, you know, and -- So I said, no -- I said, you know, "Nobody -- " And she goes, "I don't want it." And I said, "Okay." Put her in the bed and, um, about the following weekend or the week after, Aunt Terrell went to visit with, um um, her oldest granddaughter -- I can't think of her name, now -- Shelly's daughter --HENDERSON: Oh, Lexie?
KELLY: Mm hm. And, um, so I went down. We were there, and this was the weekend
that, um, mom wasn't really talking to Terrell too much, and it, it, it, it hurt -- I think it hurt Terrell's feelings. You know, she didn't understand. She would ask mom a question and she would just like, "Um -- " And, um, she was talking to me, but she wasn't really, um, talking too much. And I'll, I'll tell 02:07:00you how I feel about that later. And so Terrell was leaving I think that morning -- it was a Sunday morning -- and, um and she left, but that, the night before, um, Terrell was listening to mom's chest and stuff, because she was sort of restless and she felt that it may be fluid, you know, and it could be congested, going into congestive heart failure or something. And so Terrell left that morning and then, um, Kelly came, and I went in the room and I said, um uh, "I, I'm leaving," you know, "I'm going to be leaving," and, um, and she said, uh uh, "Oh, you have to go?" and I got, "Yeah," I said, "but I'll be back." So I'm, I don't know if that was the weekend or the previous weekend when T.J. went down and, um and she wasn't really acting -- interacting with him, either. So, the, 02:08:00um, the, that night when we left, we went home, and I called Vern, um, at ten to see how she was doing, and that's when they were taking her to the hospital. Vern said, "I had to call the ambulance and take her." Kelly went to work. And I called him and I said, "I have to go. I need to go," you know? And, um, I called my boss and I said, "Um, I don't know when I'm going to see you. And I don't care if I have a job when I, when I, when I get back." Um, so Kel, uh, when he got off work he, because he had just drove down, picked me up, dropped me home --HENDERSON: Right. Right. Right.
KELLY: -- went to work and then, um, when he came home I think he may have had a
couple hours sleep and got right up and drove me to Dover and drove me right to the hospital. She was already at the hospital, and that's where I stayed. And, um, I called my best friend on Guam, Julia, and, um, and she said, um "Document 02:09:00everything, everything." She said, "What she looks like, how she smells, you know, everything," she said, "because, um -- How she sounds when she talks." You know, "When my mom died," she says, "I can't remember anything." So I got a steno pad and went down to the, um, hospital thing, picked up a steno pad and then started writing, "On this day -- " each day, each time, "She's doing this." And I watched her transition to the end. And, um I told you I've always, I, I guess I embraced her more and she just received it. Um, so, and I've done this for, I don't know, all my life that I can remember, I always do this to her ear, just --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: -- you know, if I'm talking to her, I may just be doing her ear --
HENDERSON: (Unintelligible) --
KELLY: Yeah.
02:10:00HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: And I did this every day in the hospital, you know, comb her hair, and as
I was combing her hair, um, at the, the, whatever would come out the brush, I, I wouldn't throw it away. I just started collecting it.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: Every day, I'd comb her hair, I would collect it, and rub these ears. And
Verna had, um, Power of Attorney to determine what was going to happen. Um, she went in on a Sunday. By Monday, Tuesday, the doctor was basically saying her organs were shutting down, you know, and there's, there's not a whole lot -- By this time, mom had stopped eating. Um, she wasn't talking to anybody. She had her eyes closed. And if I talked to her, she would answer. If anybody else talked to her, she wouldn't answer. And, um so, I called the siblings and, um 02:11:00and Vern went into denial.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: Uh and I said, "If you're comin', you come. You come now." So Ron and
Barb came down and T.J. and Perry and Aurea came, and, uh, Teddy -- remember Teddy and Sally?HENDERSON: Yeah. Mm hm.
KELLY: They came down. And then, um, I think Tony came over and, you know, some
of Vern's kids. Um, you know, and they moved her, eventually, out of her room into um, a larger room, where (unintelligible) and we're not disturbing anybody. And so I called Eugene, which is our first cousin, she wanted to do the eulogy --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: You were at the funeral, right?
HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.
KELLY: He's the, he's the one that did the eulogy. And, um, uh, when I got to
the hospital, I said to her -- Sadie Sadie said, um was there with mom and at 02:12:00one point, I went downstairs to get some ice cream. I wanted some ice cream. And when I came upstairs, mom wasn't eating and Sadie and I were there, and Sadie said, "Well, maybe she, maybe she'll eat some ice cream," and, and, um, so I said, "Well, here," and Sadie took my ice cream and she said, "Mom, you want some ice cream." Momma didn't say nothing, and she put a little, mom opened her mouth and Sadie was feeding her. She closed it, and Sadie get some more, put it, and she opened, but she wasn't saying anything. The eyes was closed. And then, in the midst of doing this, Sadie's doing this by the bed, and I'm over here, just watching, you know, and, and might have been rubbing her ear, I don't know. And, all of a sudden, mom just sit right up. I don't -- I can't remember now if she opened her eyes or not -- I think she might have -- and Sadie goes, and she says, "Gotta go. Gotta go." So Sadie said, "Where? Where, where you goin', mom?" She says, "I gotta go. I gotta go to the door, to the door." And Sadie said, 02:13:00"Why? Who's at the door?" and she said, "Jesus." And Sadie said, "Well, you can't go now. Let's, let's finish your ice cream." So she laid back down and she eat the ice cream. So when that was done, Sadie comes over the side of bed and she said to me, "Did you hear who she said was at the door?" (laugh)HENDERSON: (laugh)
KELLY: It was almost like she was in disbelief.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: You know, and I said, "Yeah! She said Jesus." And she -- I said, "Well,
hell, that's who you want at the door!"(laughter)KELLY: "You don't want Lucifer at the door. That's not a bad thing at the door."
And she was going.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: So, once they, they, that day, I called Eugene and I said, you know, "Mom
is, is, is failing and, um, and she wants you to eulogize her," and, um, and he said, "Whatever she wants, whatever she wants, I'm there." And I called 02:14:00regarding the church, to get the information regarding the church. So when I came back to the hospital, I said, "Hi, I'm here!" and kissed her, and just a little corner, and I said, "So," and Sadie's standing next to me, I say, "So I talked to Eugene about the eulogy and he said, 'Whatever you want. Whatever -- '" and Sadie nudged me, and I go, "What!"HENDERSON: (laughter)
KELLY: I said, "Look at her face." She was smiling. I said, "What -- whatever
you want." I said, "This is the stuff she asked for. She needs to know what's being -- I wrote this stuff down in 1995. She needs to know that it is being handled."HENDERSON: Right.
KELLY: And, um, and we went shopping for her dress, and we had all that before
she'd actually passed away, because that's what she wanted. So we go -- and meanwhile, I'm documenting, and, um and it went from um initially being, 02:15:00"(Unintelligible) Why you here?" because her, you know, so prim and proper and the back of the gown was open and, and they was trying to move her and she was fussing and, and Vern and I was laughing, and she turned around and, and, um, she goes, "It's not funny!" and, and that was her, she was just very modest, to, um she would hold on, she was holding like whatev -- whatever. She, it was hers. If you tried to op -- She was not like letting go to more releasing. So we were talking, I was talking to Terrell one day, and I said -- this is after they moved her down to this room -- and I said, I said, "Ter, she just, um -- " You know, it's like if you tried to like take something or move it, she's still not talking, still not open, still not eating, which means she's not getting her medicine. She's hold-- -- And so Terrell said, because Aunt Terrell was the director of a nursing home, so she was used to dealing with geriatric patients -- well, those were her patients -- and she said, um, "Well, she'll, she'll, 02:16:00she'll do that until she doesn't do it anymore." And I said, "Well, then, what she'll do?" and she said, "Nothing," and I'm thinking, "Okay, whatever that means." So, um, it got to the point where, um, by now, everybody was down, and Aunt Vernie had the burden of making the decisions, whatever they were. Um, and mom wasn't eating. And, uh (throat-clearing) I called Vern -- And mom had a DNR, do not resuscitate, so that was clear. They wasn't putting no feeding tubes, nothing in. So, I called... I was at the hospital with Uncle Rocky. It was, it was only the two of us and she was -- that's why I said, I guess maybe the first and the last -- and, um, she had his hand like this... This, these are her hands and his hand and she just had his hand. So he's sitting in a chair with his hand 02:17:00and he'd look at me, and I'd do this, and she wouldn't let it go --HENDERSON: And she was holding --
KELLY: She just, she just would not let it go until, until she let it go.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: Um, but she just, it was like she was just holding it, and so um, the
doctor came in and said, "Well, we," you know, "are talking, because she's not taking the medicine," and by this time they had her on the morphine, they wanted to put a Pep tube -- they called it a Pep tube. So Vern was at the house, and I called her and I said I said, "Vern, call Ter," I said, "because they're saying they want to put a Pep tube in so they can give her the medication." And, um, so Vern was at the house with Ronald and them, and I don't know how this conversation came up, but the next thing I know, she's at the hospital. She had called Terrell and, um, she was at the hospital and, uh, she was like, "I have -- " and I said, "Cool. Whoa, Nellie, calm down." I said, "I don't have an opinion." She said, "You don't?" I said, "No," I said, "Whatever Terrell says is 02:18:00fine by me." And, uh, clearly, Terrell says that if they put the Pep tube in for the medicine, they're going to put food in it, and then you've got to go to court to try to get that, you know, do not. So, um Vern stayed for a little while. You know, she got calmed down and, I guess, in this conversation with Terrell is where the pressure built up. You know, "Am I doing the right thing? Am I doing the wrong thing?" you know, because what other may think -- Well, so let them put the Pep tube in, what, what -- So Terrell said to Aunt Vernie, "I'm going to share something with you. I don't even think doctors know. When it comes to a point where a person is transitioning, no matter what you do medically. They've already transitioned, so if you see these signs, you will know to (unintelligible). It's done."HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: One was her ears, and the other was I don't, I don't remember -- I'll
have to ask Vern what was the second one, if it was a second one -- it seemed 02:19:00like it was two. But she said, um, once this has happened, no matter what they try to do, and she said, "And I don't think doctors even know."HENDERSON: And what's the ears, what's the --
KELLY: I'm going to tell you in a minute. So, um Vern leaves, and Rocky leaves,
and I'm staying at the hospital that night with her, and, in this room, it was two recliners, a big one here and one, um, almost at the foot of her bed and one at the head of the bed. Mom had a really very nice, um, orderly that used to come in. Her name was, um, Wanda Banks. And, um she, um was rolling in the, um, the, um, recliners and, and -- So it was about one in the morning, and I happened to look up and here comes Verna. And I said, "What are you doing here?" And she goes, "I don't know." And I says, "Okay." But one of the things Terrell 02:20:00also told her, told her, and told her before, that mom probably won't die if she's in the room.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: She probably just will not.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: And so, um uh, Wanda came in and gave us blankets, sheets and blankets
and, um, uh, a facecloth and toothbrush, you know, hygiene, because we're staying the night. So I'm in this chair and Verna's there, and we're asleep, I'm asleep, and all of a sudden I hear somebody talking, so I opened my eyes and I looked and it's Wanda and this other orderly I guess -- a white woman. And mom is laying on the bed -- no clothes on. Now, remember, this was the woman that was having a hard time in the -- Wanda is, is washing her, you know, washing her down, so she is naked as in no sheet, no -- naked. And I'm looking at her, and I 02:21:00look at Verna, but, um, it was just a little light, um, and I couldn't see with the reflection on the glass -- Verna's glasses. I couldn't see if her eyes was open or closed, so I'm just watching it. And I don't know if they know even watching it. And I, I said "Hey, I don't remember mom's titties looking like that," because I've seen my mother's breasts all her life.HENDERSON: (laugh) Mm hm.
KELLY: Or her body -- Hmm -- And Wanda is, um, telling the girl, "See I'm
getting her ready for when her family come to visit." Now mom has had family in and out, they -- And she says, "I got my special lotion. I'm putting my lotion on her," and she's rubbing, and she goes, "You smell that? You smell it? I am trying to teach you something this (unintelligible) smelling that -- trying to teach you something, getting her ready for when her family comes." And, um, she lotioned her up and then she goes --(break in audio)
HENDERSON: Okay.
02:22:00KELLY: And she said, um, "Get her ready for her family to come," so she went to
put a gown on her, and I said, "Is that a clean gown?" -- and Vern said I said it nasty -- but she goes, "It's clean," and I said, "Okay." Because you ain't going to have my mother laying up her naked and you going to put a dirty gown on her. So she put the gown on her and (throat-clearing) and then they leave and I get up. Um when I go look at mom, and Vern gets up, and I turned the little light on over her and her eyes was sort of open -- you know how your eyes are sort of half-cracked, but she's not, still not talking. And I go, "Hi, mom," you know, and I'm rubbing her ear and I've rubbed these ears for years --HENDERSON: (laugh)
KELLY: -- and I rubbed this ear, and I look -- I said, "Vern," and she's folding
her blanket. She goes, "Yeah?" I said, "I don't remember mom's ears looking like 02:23:00that." She walked over, looked, said, "Hmm," dropped the blanket, opened the bathroom door wand went in. And I'm still there just --(laughter)
KELLY: -- looking at this ear. Now, I'm thinking, she, okay, she had to go to
the bathroom, and I'm looking -- So then I looked at mom and I said, um I said, um (long pause) "I'm going to be okay," and her eyes just closed. And I said, "Go home," and she took her last breath and that was it. That happened, the door opened, here comes Vern. And I said, "She's gone," and she came over and then, um, she went to the door to, to call the, the orderly in. Um so 02:24:00(throat-clearing) then we started calling everybody, because everybody was down. Your mom didn't come and Aunt Terrell didn't come. And your mom said she didn't want to see her that way. Aunt Terrell had just been, you know --HENDERSON: Right.
KELLY: -- and, and had left.
HENDERSON: Because she was so far.
KELLY: Um hmm, Uncle Ferdie was gone, obviously, but everybody else was there,
and Teddy and Sally were -- Teddy was like her other son. Um, so, everybody came and, you know, we're all around the bed. We put her teeth in, because her teeth was out, and make sure that rigor mortis set in and, and then, we would wait for the doctor, and he came in to pronounce. And so as, um -- I just sat in the room and I finished the journal --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: -- you know, the, of, of, from the very beginning to the transition and
the end, and, um -- But that wasn't the end of the journal. So Ron had asked me, 02:25:00um, "What are you writing?" and I told him and he says, "Can I read it?" and I says, "Of course you can." So, um, once we got back to Vern's and we were sitting around talking, um, the plans, um Vern shared what Terrell had shared with her. And she said, um well, I think she said that she probably wouldn't die when she was in the room, but -- And that may have been the second thing, but the other thing is, is when old people, well, when they're transitioning -- and, and I don't think this happens with young people, an accident just die -- but, um, their ears fold back, so --HENDERSON: Really?
KELLY: -- all of this piece that we have here, including the
lobe --HENDERSON: Right here? Yeah.
KELLY: All of that.
HENDERSON: So, the whole like outer ear?
KELLY: It was gone. It's, it's just fold back. So all you have is this inside.
HENDERSON: What?
KELLY: Yes, and it's almost like the heart, you know, your
02:26:00hearing. It crumples --HENDERSON: Right. Right. Right.
KELLY: It's, it's just -- It just folds back like you're listening. So when I'm
rub -- I go to rub the ear, because you usually come down on somebody's -- it wasn't there. So all I'm do -- I go who's -- It was just this piece.HENDERSON: Yeah, just the kind of (unintelligible) the ear, right?
KELLY: And I'm rubbing, I'm going, and I'm look --
HENDERSON: So then, so then the out like folds back like this.
KELLY: Yep. Yep. Yep. Yes. So when I said, "Vern?" And I had no idea what
Terrell had said --HENDERSON: Ohhh --
KELLY: I didn't know.
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
KELLY: And I said, "I don't remember mom's ear being like this," because it was weird.
HENDERSON: Mm hm. Right. Right.
KELLY: And she came over and she said, "Hmm," opened the door and --
HENDERSON: And then she just left the room.
KELLY: So when I said, "Well (unintelligible)." She goes, "I had to use the
bathroom." I said, "You did not have to use the bathroom. You did not."HENDERSON: (laughter)
KELLY: And she says, "I don't, I don't know." I said, "Well, she said she
probably wouldn't die when she was in the room," and the minute she took her last breath, the door opened and Verna came out. So I didn't smell any lotion. I 02:27:00asked Vern, "Do you smell some lotion?" she's -- Well, what I understand is when Vern went to say, Wanda got really upset and was crying because she was like, "Did I do something when I was in there?" Wanda probably don't even know what she was saying and what she was doing.HENDERSON: What she was saying, uh huh.
KELLY: And it was Tony that said to me, when I was telling this story, he says,
you know, a lot of people think that incense is an Islamic thing, he said, but don't forget that they brought frankincense to Jesus, to baby Jesus, and when she said, "I'm getting her prepared for her family when they come," she wasn't talking about us. It was talking about the family that was going to meet her, you know? And, and that was a smell we couldn't smell.HENDERSON: Right.
KELLY: So I don't, I don't know if Wanda Banks knew what she was saying. She
02:28:00says, "I've got my -- " or, or if I'm hearing this stuff, but she's not even speaking.HENDERSON: But she's not saying it -- Mm hm.
KELLY: You know, um, "I'm getting her ready. I'm going to teach you something.
I'm getting her ready -- Got my special lotion for when her family comes."HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: She didn't say, "Come to visit," she said, "For when her family comes."
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: And, um I've experienced, um, other people in my life that were close to
me that had passed, um -- I've never had an experience like Ferdie, and then mom. Um because with Ferdie um we all gathered in New York and, um, when we were 02:29:00leaving. I said, um "Probably by the time I get back here, you won't be here." That's the truth, and he said, "I know." And I said, "If I've done anything," and he said, "You did nothing." I said, "I was a brat."HENDERSON: (laughter)
KELLY: You know, and he could hardly talk and he said, "Listen to me. You were a
sweet sister. You did nothing." You know? Because I, I was just, you know, um and Verna on the other hand, knew he was dying, and she said, um "I'll be back!" and so the reality is it was very difficult for her afterwards, because she felt she'd made a promise that she couldn't keep, where the reality was, unless you didn't leave (laugh) that wasn't a promise that you could keep.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
02:30:00KELLY: So, um how he embraced -- And I, and maybe he was -- Uh, because I said
to him, "Are you afraid?" and he said, "Yeah," you know, but, um for me to be able to ask the questions and get the answers is, um, the gift because it's something that's going to happen to all of us at, at, at a point, and so we as people sometimes tend to not talk about what the what the reality is. "Mom, let's talk about what you want," you know, why not? Um, Rahiyl and I did it not too long ago. She goes, "What'd you want? Because I don't want to have to be knocking somebody up side the head." And, um, I hope it's not today -- tomorrow, but (laugh) -- So, um Ferd made me not afraid of death. Mom made me embrace the 02:31:00inevitable, because to watch her body, just the transformation. I --HENDERSON: What was the last like -- and also in respects to her modesty -- when
you were looking at her [orderlies?] you said her body looked different.KELLY: Uh huh.
HENDERSON: Is that describable?
KELLY: Yeah.
HENDERSON: How did it look different?
KELLY: Thirty, Christ's age. Her breasts were up and perky --
HENDERSON: Uh huh.
KELLY: There was no wrinkle, firm --
HENDERSON: Are you serious?
KELLY: Yeah. Ask, um, Verna. And you can ask Sadie and any of them.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: Her face was her face, but a different face. It was, um, there was not a,
not a wrinkle. And if you walk in there and ask Ron, Barbara -- I mean we were all there, Vern, Noble, not a wrinkle. Um, and I believe that's because we hold all the stress and the tension and stuff -- that's where we get this stuff from. And when you are gone, there, there is nothing.HENDERSON: Right.
02:32:00KELLY: You know, so that house of the soul, um -- And they say, you know, if we
die of old age, we will revert back to Christ's age, and -- Because I was saying "Well, dang, I don't remember mom's breasts looking like that. Those look better than mine. They were sitting right up."HENDERSON: (laughter)
KELLY: And her body was firm. It was, um -- So when they came, they didn't see
her naked.HENDERSON: Right.
KELLY: You know, Vern and I did. Um, but her face, we just all stood around
talking about her face. And then we're trying to get these teeth back in there, and, um, we did get them in, but it was, um yeah -- Um, it was just like "Am I seeing this?" you know, even, uh, I'm going to the door, you know, or just to watch her go from, um being really irritable and agitated to clinging and holding on, and when Verna said, and Terrell said, "Well, she'll do that, 02:33:00she'll," you know, "do that, and then, and then she won't." And, um, and I said, "Well, then, what will she do?" and she said, "Nothing." To watch her now, just laying there, letting it, it's, you know, it's just, it's, it's, um -- If I didn't experience that myself, um I would not, uh, if somebody told me that, I would go, "Really?" (laughter) "Wonder what that would look like?" It would, it would be a little scary, a little eerie for me.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: But it was, um one of the most treasured gifts of my mother's death, was
one of the most (unintelligible) gifts for me in watching that process. And then what I did was I, um, finished the end of that journal with, um (long pause) 02:34:00the, uh, the ear, what I did know about the ear, because I did say her ear was, and then Vern, so I filled it in. And so, um, when we were back at the house, I asked Ronald if he wanted to read it, but we were talking and I took it and left. So, what I did was, um I didn't -- It was handwriting, so I didn't re-write it or type it, I just copied all of the pages from that time and, and, I, I wrote, "Our Mother's Story," and, um copied it and put a binder on it, you know, and, and spiraled, like that, at work, and uh clipped a piece of her hair, and mailed one to each of my siblings.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: And your mother -- I don't ev -- I don't even know if she's completely
finished reading it, because she got it and she says, "I, I just couldn't."HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: So I think she said like I maybe got through a page and she just
couldn't. Sadie, on the other hand, read it on the bus, and cried on the whole darn bus --HENDERSON: (laughter)
KELLY: Um, but that was, um -- Um, there was one piece in it that, you know,
02:35:00I'm, I'm not going to say on the tape, but um, that I whited out and just said it was private section, because --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: -- um she was, she wanted her child, a child, and, and and the child
didn't come. And, and this was a conversation we had before she passed.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: Um, I mean the child came eventually, but not before, you know --
HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.
KELLY: -- and, and, so, I just felt that, um, I didn't want anybody having any
regrets or feel like -- So, I just whited it out.HENDERSON: Mm hm. Oh, and that was part of the journal, so you --
KELLY: Yeah.
HENDERSON: -- whited it out before you sent it.
KELLY: I whited it out, and just said it was --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: -- uh, you know, a private conversation. Now, they probably all will
wonder -- "Was it me?"HENDERSON: (laughter)
KELLY: "Yeah, it was all of you. It was each and every one of you."
HENDERSON: (laughter)
KELLY: Um, but yeah, so that, that's, that's what, um the last year was like --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: -- and the, and the and last year, the end was, for me with her, was the
02:36:00same as the beginning, because I've never known her any other way.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: Um, but to be one of the most sophisticated women that I've ever known.
And, and honestly, even though I knew, um I knew that, I never put word to it --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: -- in, in describing, until right now --
HENDERSON: Right.
KELLY: -- and, and, yeah, she was a sophisticated lady.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: You know, I would always say, "She was just so modest and so poised and
-- " but she was, um just to even, right now, envision her walking down Sixteenth Street, she never cowered. She never was like, "I'm not sure where I am." Every step said, "I'm here." (laugh)HENDERSON: (laughter)
KELLY: "I'm here and I'm not common --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: " -- and I'm not -- "
HENDERSON: What do you mean, "not common?"
KELLY: Not common. Because we lived in
02:37:00Harlem, you know, we, that's -- And, and women, you know, there were, there were women that thought my mom thought she was too good, and she probably did.HENDERSON: (laughter)
KELLY: And she (laugh) if you had asked her (laughter) she probably wouldn't
have denied that. She would have said, "No, I think I was too good for, for anybody, but I am too good for that," whatever that that may be.HENDERSON: Right. Right. Right.
KELLY: "No, I'm not going to hang out in the street, on the stoop, or talk
trash, or be in a hallway and let some man feel up on me, or have a (emphasis) reputation, or -- No, I'm not going to do that."HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: And, um "Put my business in the street," or whatever. She, she didn't go
out drinking and, and being loud. I mean, no. She, she just didn't. So, um there was nothing that anybody, anybody could say about her, you know, where we lived. 02:38:00Um, dad was the, you know, um the nice guy -- everybody in the, in the neighborhood loved him, and I'm not saying that, uh, everybody didn't love my mom, but if you, you, if you didn't know her, you -- Now, our house, every single one of us, our friends, was in that house. And you couldn't have been a giving, loving woman; you had your own kids. Now, for me, sometimes, in, as a matter of fact, when I wanted to go out and I was, quote-unquote on punishment for something I didn't do, maybe, um my friends used to march through there. I would never let my kids do that to me.HENDERSON: (laughter)
KELLY: You know, well, ask her. That would come sit up there, there'd be four or
five of them, "Please let her go. Please. Please." If this was such -- My mom didn't laugh and joke, "Ah, ha, ha." She wasn't that kind of woman.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: Um, inside, maybe, she was happy, but if she, if she, if people were
uncomfortable with her, they couldn't have done that, my friends could not have, they would have been terrified, "Are you crazy? I'm not going to talk to your 02:39:00mother." But, um, all of Ronald's friends, close, close, close friends were like brothers to me, because they were in my house. Sunday was Guys Day, all of Ronald's, T.J.'s friends, my cousins, they were in there playing, uh, watching the game, um it was just a hangout. We didn't real -- we went to our friends' house, but we didn't have to go anywhere to hang out, because we could always hang out at home.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: And, um you know, and that's well, it just like the way it was, you know.
She was she was, um -- When mom was, um somewhat stoic, well, you know, Nana. Nana was -- Now with you, it was always, "Ah!" you know, but, um growing up, she was so -- If, if people didn't know her, if they weren't personal friends, they would be like, "Gee, your mom look mean." But people have said that about me. 02:40:00HENDERSON: (laughter) Mm hm.
KELLY: You know, but, um she, she (laugh) she really, really, really wasn't that
way at all, but [she didn't play?] either, you know. But she just, um -- When, when we would hear her laugh -- If she was on the phone talking to one of her sisters or something like that, somebody from down South, a friend or, um you know, that laugh where you laugh from your gut, when we listened to that, we would go running and look at her, because we didn't, we didn't get that.HENDERSON: (laughter)
KELLY: You know? She would smile and laugh and stuff, but it was all sort of
like up here.HENDERSON: (laughter)
KELLY: But when you get one those -- she was talking to her friend about
whatever, it wasn't kid stuff -- And, you know, another thing, Nana always talked, um, uh however she talked, but whenever she would talk to one of her 02:41:00sisters -- not so much her sisters, because her sisters were also educated -- but she talked, would talk to some people from South Carolina or Norma Jean or Carmelita, I'd be like, "What happened to you?" All of a sudden, children became "churrin'" and, and it was like (laughter) --HENDERSON: (laughter)
KELLY: -- and it, it was like (laughter) "Okay!"
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: And we could tell by how she was talking, who she was (unintelligible) --
HENDERSON: But that was just, that was with her friends?
KELLY: Mm hm, it was (unintelligible) you know, but not necessarily her family --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: -- depending on which sister she was talking to.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: Mm hm.
HENDERSON: (laughter)
KELLY: Yeah, she was, um when she was a piece of work, she was --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: -- she was, and I mean that in the most loving and respectful way that I
could, you know, uh, uh, a sculpture of a fine woman.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: And dad knew, um what he had. I don't, I don't know if he, if, if he
02:42:00thought that, um he matched with her, because, see, he had a third-grade education, if that. And, um, and I'm sure he knew that his mother didn't, her mother didn't want her to marry him, and (throat-clearing) but he loved his wife, and, um -- I remember -- He was a jokester, and funny. He loved to laugh. So that, he, he, he, you know, he would, he would do things like and his, his toenails were so hard and crusty and stuff and he'd cut them and he's say, "Here," and I'm like, "No!" you know. He would call the kids to play, always play a joke on mom. And he'll, he'll, uh, say, "Here, take this to your mom. Take this to her," and, and, uh, or he'll say, "Go tell your mother 'poonkie' 02:43:00and 'poonkie' didn't mean anything, but for mom, hearing a word like that, it meant something that kids shouldn't be saying (laughter) --HENDERSON: (laughter)
KELLY: -- or some silliness. So we'd go in the kitchen and be like, "Mom, dad
said to tell you 'poonkie,'" and she'd say, "Jero! Stop telling those kids about something like -- " and he would be, and you'd go in the living room, he would be laughing so hard. And, of course, he had a little taste in him, or he'll give you these old raggedy nails and say, "Here, take this. Give it to your mom." "Mom, here. Dad said -- " Now, why, every time -- She knew, she must know it was his nasty toenails in their hands. (laughter) Each time, here we go taking it and she's opening up her hand, "Jero!" but, um -- Dad wasn't the disciplinarian; Mom was.HENDERSON: Mm hm. Mm hm.
KELLY: Um, he was, um the advisor, um if he felt you needed it, or you seeked
02:44:00it. Um but I know he did not play with disrespecting mom. And I don't mean disrespecting her like yelling at her, or be -- 'cause we wouldn't have even dared thought of doing that, um, certain words you could or could not say, or the tone, if the tone changed a little bit -- didn't even have to go up two octaves, if the tone change a little bit. So, he could be sitting there and she'll say, "Sonia, go wash the dishes." "I'm going," watching T.V., she could have said that five hundred times, I swear, kid you not. "Sonia go -- " and, "I, I'm going -- " and he's sitting right there and would not say a word. "Sonia go wash the dishes." "I said," you know, if I said, "I said I'm going," let me get that "I said"--man, my mouth would be over here somewhere --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
02:45:00KELLY: -- and that would be from him. So, um, or if I said, "Okay!" but the way
I, and not like "Okay," "Okay, Mom! I'm watching T.V. Stop saying and saying.."So when, um when they were saying in there where dad met T.J. I think he took a
piece of meat out of Rocky's leg, Sadie's leg. I mean, he, when it came to mom --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: -- no, no (laugh) he didn't care (unintelligible) you was his child, he
would kill you and there's no doubt, he would, because he -- Dad didn't, um he was a really, really easygoing, (emphasis) easygoing guy, really easygoing. Kelly is that way. I, I probably could count the times on one finger maybe --HENDERSON: (laughter)
02:46:00KELLY: Honest! In thirty-two years of being him, with him, that I could say that
I probably seen him mad. Dad was the same way. But dad would go from this to -- And I think he just saw, just saw red, um so, you know, he was, he was now, um, he was Verna's, um everything.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: You know, um, for me, he was just like my big teddy bear, you know, and,
and certain things, like mom, um certain things girls didn't do.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: I 'member one year, um, whenever he would say when we would come back
from Dover, Ronnie and I, we would be black, being in that sun. And, and when he'd come home from work, we're running to him, and he's say all he could see is eyes and teeth, because we're smiling --HENDERSON: (laughter)
KELLY: And I went running, we was running, I was running at, we saw him coming
home from work, and we'll go running down towards him because we could always 02:47:00get a nickel or dime or something and go get some candy, ten cent candy, five cent candy. And, um, I had this gum. I'm running and usually he's smiling when he sees us, his face would just light up. The face wasn't lit. But I was paying too attention -- I must have been thinking about that penny, candy, nickel candy. And when I got to him to, like, hug him quickly he just, as I was running to him, he just grabbed my arm -- not hard -- and just flipped me around to walk with him. And I'm like this, like --HENDERSON: (laughter)
KELLY: And he says, "Don't let me," and he's smiling, "Don't let me ever see you
chewing that gum like that." I said, "Okay," and so then I spit it out.HENDERSON: (laughter)
KELLY: Don't, don't be (unintelligible) -- I, it, it, him and mom was very much
about how women carried, even as young girls, how women carried themselves in 02:48:00the street, and you just don't, sitting out -- That was not happening or, or popping gum on the subway or something like that. And you know, I, that part, I remember from him, and one day I was having, um, a fit. And I don't know what I was talking about. I think I -- And he said to me, um -- I didn't understand it them, but I remembered it, because I was like, at the time I must have been thinking, "Why you saying that to me?" And, and it was really about my behavior -- nobody here. He says, "In this world, you nothin' but a speck. A speck. Can't even see you. And don't nobody care 'bout you, but the people that are here. So in here, you treat the people (laughter) differently." "Don't be up here--" I guess it was, "I want what I want what I want!" You know, "We care. You, you 02:49:00can't go out into the world, you know, acting that way." Um, but, you know -- At -- All the years where I just thought, "You are silly, ma," to myself. "I mean, I went outside yesterday, can't go today. No girl's hanging out -- "(laughter)
KELLY: When Eugene gave the eulogy at her funeral, and he, he talked about mom,
and he called her "Mud." (phonetic) That side of the family used to call her "Mud," which was my father's sister, he had a sister named Sister that we called "Sister," and one named "Baby." And they, Sister didn't have any children, but Baby's kids are the ones that usually come to our reunion, the Chisolms and, um, and they lived in the building with us, so they was like, you know, um our protectors, like my brothers. But Eugene, um, he said, um, about mom, and the 02:50:00woman that she was and he said they were in -- the guys, all my brothers, I guess and them were in there talking, having this talk, I guess maybe, I don't know if Rocky and them was out the night before with some girl and they was talking, you know -- And he said -- And he said this at, at her funeral. He said, um, he said, "Mud came in the room, to the door, and said, 'Uh-uh-uh, uh-uh-uh,' she said," he said, "She said, 'I'm raising girls in here,'" and he said and that shut it down. "You don't, you don't, brothers, cousins, you don't have those kind of conversations in front of my girls. I'm, I'm raising girls in here." And, um I don't, I don't know if she took anything more serious than that.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: You know, in terms of maybe education and everything else, I think all of
02:51:00that -- She was proud of us, what we did, and maybe what we wanted, but I think that came second to the character of the person that, that she's raising, you know, because, in all honesty, if you have that, then you can have whatever it is that you want. Um and so that was huge for her, not -- And so for me, even, being a wife, um I measure, a lot of times, any partner to my brothers, because I know -- I'm not saying my brothers are perfect, by no means, but I do know my brothers know how to treat their wives --HENDERSON: Right.
KELLY: -- you know, and respect their wives and be responsible for their
household. You know, I do know that. And, um, and so for for, you know, 02:52:00nowadays, we're, I'm telling a girl at work, you know, "Stop setting him up to, to, to not be able to take care of a family," you know, and maybe I did that with my oldest. I don't know. Although he left my home, you know --HENDERSON: Right.
KELLY: -- at sixteen, so he was sort of on his own and maybe that was the
problem, but, um -- Yeah, I think that, for her, was, um was the biggest thing --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: -- you know, that, um, there was nobody in the street that was going to
be calling her girls "whores" or "tramps" or, or, outside of their name -- huge for her. Um, that's why I couldn't dye my hair, cut my hair, do anything until I was grown, because, you know, all the kids, they're streaking here -- she was like, "Whores."HENDERSON: (laughter)
02:53:00KELLY: "Prostitutes, that what they do." So, you know.
HENDERSON: And I think it's really interesting that from such a little age,
because you were saying earlier how she used to (laugh) that "My girls won't be out in the street," and you were small enough to just want to play. It's not like you were, I'm assuming trying to hang out and you were --KELLY: Young.
HENDERSON: -- you know -- Yeah.
KELLY: She, she -- And, and I don't -- Like I said, I don't know if any of them
really was one of the ones that wanted to be out in the street. When me and T.J. was big, out, wanted to be out. Um, the other girls -- Sadie was, um, you know, maybe had her one or two friends and she was helping, chores around the house, and mom had all these little kids. Verna, housework and different things to do. And then there was Terrell, who, um, didn't do a, want to go out a lot, nor your mom didn't ask to go out a lot. And here I come along, you know, um, Uncle Priestly --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
02:54:00KELLY: He used to tell her that, um, I was her payback -- always had one.
HENDERSON: (laughter)
KELLY: That I was her payback, so, um you know? It's, it's, um, yeah, very,
very, very -- And I was thinking like, like I've said, "What's wrong with this woman? All I want to do is go play. What is she -- What is she talking about?" And I had, was always wanting to be comfortable, you know, and I think Verna went through the same thing, and I'm sitting in the chair, my legs are up, and she come in there and she, "Stop cockin' up. Stop cockin' up," and she would say something silly, "What you lookin' for?" "What do you mean? What do you -- " You know, but I was, it was also about that, you know, it was just certain things that she just nip it in the bud. And, of course, when you, when you're that young, it didn't mean anything to me, "I want to go play. I want to go outside with my friends. I want to play."HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: "You want out. No. Girls, girls do not hang out in the street." I think
02:55:00smart-ass Verna told once, "I'm not in the street. I'm on a -- " (laughter) you know -- "You're outside, you're, you're on the stoop. You're not in the street," but --HENDERSON: (laugh)
KELLY: Yeah.
HENDERSON: Hmm --
HENDERSON: That's great. Thank you.
KELLY: You're welcome.
HENDERSON: That you for sharing this.
KELLY: You're welcome.
HENDERSON: You'll be hearing from me soon --
KELLY: (laughter)
HENDERSON: -- to follow up.
(laughter)
KELLY: You are welcome. I don't think I left anything out, but --
HENDERSON: I think that what I appreciate is, again this, the, the discussions
early on of schooling and all this kind of stuff and I think there's, there's a better way to say it, I think more artful, but you're telling me how Nana taught you how to die -- not like that, but just how, like this is what life's end looks like.KELLY: Yeah. You're right.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
02:56:00KELLY: She did.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: She did.
HENDERSON: Without necessarily trying, directing it -- of course, she's not
going to say, "This is what it is," but --KELLY: Yeah.
HENDERSON: -- just by living it, which sounds like, I think for, for, for
everyone that I've talked to, there's very much that, "This is an example. This is -- I'm going to show you how," but, um, "Or tell you, I can tell you, but I'm also going to show you (unintelligible) --KELLY: Right. You know, one, one of the things that I do want to add before,
before we're done is, um I never met, um anybody really in my life -- well, I have, I have, but, um -- I think you're one of them, and I'm, I'm going to tell 02:57:00you, it's, it's really rare, it's really rare, that is content with, um not being something or someone that society would say is successful.HENDERSON: (Unintelligible) --
KELLY: You with me?
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: A lot of people are, or feel they are what they do --
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: You know? Um, if you weren't a doctor or this or that, um, other people
would not look at you as successful. (throat-clearing) With her day-to-day struggles, I never, ever -- which is rare -- heard my mom say, "I wish I had a car. I wish I had a -- I wish I had -- " Never! I've never seen -- it's rare, and she's my first, probably, exposure of, um, someone being content with who 02:58:00they are --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: -- um, and not to need to try to be anything for anybody else
(unintelligible). Um, and I don't -- All the things I may try to aspire to in life is that.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: Is that. Um you know, and, and especially coming from -- And maybe it's,
it resonates so deeply with me because remember for years, I came from a place of, I always worried about the perception of others about me because of what I went through, what was wrong with me, so I always, um felt people were looking at me through colored lenses, you know, the distortion was there. "I, I feel this way. What's wrong with me?" you know, because, because of this, so um, for 02:59:00awhile, um it mattered to me, you know, how you felt I looked, or how you felt -- And prior to recovery -- today (dismissive sound) --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: You know? But, it, it, it (unintelligible) happened like the minute I got
sober, okay (unintelligible) -- And this is still in the, in the, um -- I 'member when I first moved here, this lady said, um, "Oh, how long you been sober," and I said, uh, "It was almost five years," she goes, "Oh, you'll get there." And I was, I was insulted. I was about to curse her out -- Five years is no small thing. What are you talking about? But you know, more would be revealed, that's a saying we have, and, and don't quit before the miracle. And then when ten came and fifteen, I'm like, "Damn, I'm glad I didn't give up," because just more and more is being uncovered. So, before when I was saying I got to a place where I could say, "I, I accept me as who I was," that's ["fake it 'til you make it, you're saying it,"?] you're saying it, but, um, I'm close, 03:00:00but even today, I aspire to be who Samenia Limes was.HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: She don't care how you feel about what her address is, and remember, I
was the girl that was ashamed to get off at a Hundred and Sixteenth Street --HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: -- so, um, it all ties in and, and it's, it's rare. A lot of people may
say they don't -- not true, not true. And, and I could tell, um matters of the heart, heart-to-heart, who those people are that don't, and you're one of them, which is such a gift.HENDERSON: (laughter)
KELLY: It's a gift! That's such a blessing, truly --
HENDERSON: Um --
KELLY: -- truly, truly, truly -- Yeah.
HENDERSON: And that huge that you say that, that you aspire to be like her.
That's huge.KELLY: Yeah. Yep.
HENDERSON: Mm hm.
KELLY: She was a remarkable woman. She didn't (unintelligible) you know, um
every bit more of, of the world as Maya Angelou. She, she was a poet and didn't 03:01:00-- You know? She, and she was our Maya. Um yeah, she, she was that woman -- a phenomenal woman.HENDERSON: Mm hm. Okay. Well, thank you.
KELLY: You welcome. I hope I didn't talk as long as Uncle Ronald.
HENDERSON: You --
KELLY: Uncle Ronald.
HENDERSON: (laughter)