George Kourpias Interview

RACHEL BERNSTEIN: George.

GEORGE KOURPIAS: We're ready.

BERNSTEIN: Welcome.

KOURPIAS: Thank you.

BERNSTEIN: Um, so we want to start with when you were born, and where, and just a little bit about your parents.

KOURPIAS: Uh, I was born in Sioux City, Iowa, uh, 1932, June 10th. And, um, uh, my parents were Greek immigrants. Uh, my dad came over here in 1911, which would be 100 years now. And, uh, uh, so went, went to Sioux City because he had an uncle there who was working on the railroads. In those years they used to have the different nationalities in gangs, you know, Greeks and --

BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.

KOURPIAS: -- Irish and, uh, and stuff. So he came, worked on the railroad for about a year. Went out to California and, uh, repaired shoes and stuff for a while, and then decided he was going to go back to Greece, but he wanted to stop 00:01:00and see his uncle again in Sioux City. My mother was from the same village, but she was there then, and they got married. So, uh, uh --

BERNSTEIN: He changed his mind about going back.

KOURPIAS: Oh, absolutely. And thank God. (laughter) And, uh, he, uh, uh, got a job working on a, uh, uh, uh, packinghouses. He was a real skilled butcher, but of course, uh, in those days they paid nothing. And, uh, when he first, uh -- and [armors?] in those days would hire by the day. Every morning you would -- everybody would come outside, and the foreman would take whoever they wanted, into the plant --

BERNSTEIN: Every single day for the whole --

KOURPIAS: -- just about every day. Yeah. Just about every day. And, uh --

BERNSTEIN: For what jo-- for all jobs? For what jobs?

KOURPIAS: For different jobs.

BERNSTEIN: For a lot of different --

KOURPIAS: Yeah, because, uh, uh -- so, of course, that went on, and, uh, he, um -- and in the 1930s, then, uh, uh, when the AF of L decided to, uh, uh, start organizing the packinghouses, uh, they came in, and evidently whatever it was didn't work too well, and my dad always thought that, uh, they were a company union. But then the United Packinghouse Workers Union was organized in the late '30s. Ralph Helstein was their president. And, uh, that was CIO, of course, and, uh, uh, my dad was very happy. But, uh, my mother, uh, caught the, uh, terrible epidemic of the flu that went around after the First World War, and it killed millions of people around the world --

BERNSTEIN: Nineteen eighteen?

KOURPIAS: Yeah, 1918, yeah. But she got that and was sick for quite a while. And, uh, in fact, she got well and then they -- my dad and her got married in 1921. Um, she, um, uh, then was more or less half-paralyzed, uh, and so she died. In fact, in the 1940s she got real bad and she become an invalid.

BERNSTEIN: Hmm.

KOURPIAS: And my dad quit work and took care of her. And, uh.

BERNSTEIN: So that was all from -- it all was repercussion -- long-term repercussions --

KOURPIAS: Yeah.

BERNSTEIN: -- from the flu epidemic?

KOURPIAS: Oh, yes, yeah. Her spine -- and, you know, and we didn't know in those days, uh, uh, they didn't have the medical know-how that, of course, they have today. And, uh, she went to Rochester, the Mayo Clinic, and the University of South Dakota, places in Iowa, and, uh, they -- all they would tell 00:04:00her would be that, uh, she had a dead spine, and, uh, and that you could take a, a needle and stick it into her spine and there was no reaction whatsoever.

BERNSTEIN: Oy.

KOURPIAS: So it finally crippled her; she couldn't walk. But, uh. So anyway --

BERNSTEIN: Oh, dear. OK. So what -- tell -- what did you learn about the union growing up as a kid?

KOURPIAS: Well, I, I ate it for dinner every night. Uh, two things: was the union -- the CIO, not the AF of L -- and, uh, Roosevelt. And he says, "Everybody should go to church on Sunday and light a candle for Roosevelt." He was a -- probably a socialist. He never said the word, but, uh, from just his --

BERNSTEIN: Well, it wouldn't have been a bad word to say at that time.

KOURPIAS: Well, it wouldn't have, that's right. I just can't remember the word "socialist" being used, but I can certainly remember for just every night, that's all we talked about. And, uh, how the foreman mistreated him and how they, you know, they needed more money and all of that. So that was instilled in me as a very young kid, that, uh -- And thank God.

BERNSTEIN: Did you have brothers and sisters?

KOURPIAS: Yeah. I had, uh, uh, two sisters who died -- they died at birth, and then I had a brother who was killed, uh, uh, in 1925 -- 1935, I'm sorry, born in '25.

BERNSTEIN: Mm.

KOURPIAS: Uh, on Christmas Eve. He was hit by a car. He was taking a gift over to a relative and got hit in a car.

BERNSTEIN: Oh, what a tragedy. Oh.

KOURPIAS: So, then in 1938 my sister was born. But, uh, uh, we had just tragedy at home. One thing after another. My dad eventually, uh, lost his eye, uh, a knife while he was working. A hog -- a dead one, of course -- come off the rail and hit him here while he was trimming, and the knife went into the eye.

BERNSTEIN: Oy!

KOURPIAS: So he became, uh, a very nervous man, very, very, uh, depressed with all he had. But he took good care of us.

BERNSTEIN: That's -- oh. So what was your -- well, first, the place you lived. You were not alone as a kid growing up in a union household. Were you -- most of your friends had similar -- ?

KOURPIAS: Oh, sure. We lived in a -- in our neighborhood, which was called the 00:07:00South Bottoms, and normally in every city it's the word "south," or "near the river" comes up, you always know that's where the poor people lived.

BERNSTEIN: Right.

KOURPIAS: And it was only (coughs) -- excuse me -- it was only, uh, uh, I'd say a half a mile from work. And, uh, as, growing up I watched the trucks with cattle and the pigs come by where they take them daily down to the packinghouse to be butchered and sent out. So, uh -- but we lived in a neighborhood that was really integrated. I'm telling you, Greeks and Russians and Polish and Mexicans and Indians and blacks. And Greeks.

BERNSTEIN: And did everybody --

KOURPIAS: Oh, yeah.

BERNSTEIN: -- share their cultural --

KOURPIAS: There was not -- there was not a lock on the door.

BERNSTEIN: Really.

KOURPIAS: There were -- nobody stealing from anybody. Yeah, kids bumming around and stuff, but it, it was -- it was just funny that when people are poor, uh, 00:08:00they're good citizens still.

BERNSTEIN: They help each other.

KOURPIAS: Sure, and they help each other.

BERNSTEIN: I know that's part of it. Yeah.

KOURPIAS: So our door was never, never closed. It was always open.

BERNSTEIN: Did you speak Greek at home?

KOURPIAS: Oh, yes. I -- I was held two years in kindergarten because I could not speak English.

BERNSTEIN: No kidding.

KOURPIAS: And, uh, my parents could not speak Greek -- uh, could not speak English. And so I had to get it out of kindergarten.

BERNSTEIN: So that's where you learned your English.

KOURPIAS: Yes.

BERNSTEIN: Huh.

KOURPIAS: And, uh, when I learned how to read --

BERNSTEIN: Do you -- do you remember that being hard, or -- ?

KOURPIAS: What I remember is that my dad did subscribe to the Sioux City Journal, but he could not read English, and my task was, when I started to -- when I began to, uh, read, was to read the newspaper to him, because all he could do is look at pictures.

BERNSTEIN: Huh, huh. So you were teaching him English as you were --

KOURPIAS: Yes, yes.

BERNSTEIN: -- learning it yourself.

KOURPIAS: And he got to the point where he could, uh, uh, somewhat speak, and my mother, uh, uh, hardly ever. And, uh -- and that was true -- that was true with the Mexicans down there and, and, uh, the Polish, the Russians. Uh, uh, they congregated together, and their native language is what they spoke, and they, they kind of -- and it kind of reminds you of what's happening today in our world with the Hispanics, the big population of Hispan -- Hispanics exploding --

BERNSTEIN: Uh-huh.

KOURPIAS: -- and, uh, the Cubans and stuff. It's happening today.

BERNSTEIN: And whole communities where you can get along fine in your homeland language.

KOURPIAS: And I listen to these people on immigration and I say, well hell, if they had strict immigration laws, my parents would never come here.

BERNSTEIN: Yeah.

KOURPIAS: And just to go back on the reason my dad came here -- I told you about 00:10:00what happened when he got here -- but the reason: his father smuggled him. Uh, my parents were born in the northern part of Greece, called Macedonia. Now it's -- they call neighboring Yugoslavia, uh, uh, Macedonian, but Macedonia is a state in Greece. And for 100 years, the Turks had control of Macedonia. It wasn't until 1921 --

BERNSTEIN: Uh-huh.

KOURPIAS: -- when the Turks were kicked out of that part. And my dad did not want me to be drafted into the, uh, uh -- I mean, his dad, my grandfather, didn't want my dad to be, uh, drafted, uh, into the Turkish army.

BERNSTEIN: Got it.

KOURPIAS: And what they would do, they smuggled these young kids --

BERNSTEIN: Mm.

KOURPIAS: -- out of the country. He went through the mountains, and --

BERNSTEIN: Really.

KOURPIAS: -- got, finally got to Athens, and finally got on the ship and came 00:11:00here. And one other little story on that. He couldn't speak, of course, but they gave him a namepla -- uh, a nametag that said John Kourpias, Greek. Sioux City, Iowa. And every time that train stopped, (laughs) my dad would go find the conductor to find out if that was Sioux City.

BERNSTEIN: It was Sioux City. (laughs)

KOURPIAS: It took him nearly a week (laughs) to get from New York to Sioux City.

BERNSTEIN: That's amazing, that they got him, got him out there.

KOURPIAS: Yeah.

BERNSTEIN: And he got a job instantly. So tell us about your first, first job.

KOURPIAS: My first job was, uh, uh, shining -- well, my first one, of course, was, uh, delivering newspapers downtown. And if you remember -- well, maybe you don't remember, you're too young -- but they had extras.

BERNSTEIN: Yeah.

KOURPIAS: And especially during the war, "Extra!" And I would take a bundle of those and, uh, go downtown in Sioux City and see how many I could peddle for 00:12:00a nickel.

BERNSTEIN: How old were you?

KOURPIAS: Uh, I must have been eight or nine years old.

BERNSTEIN: And so you were in school, though?

KOURPIAS: Oh, I was in school, yes.

BERNSTEIN: So you would do this after school?

KOURPIAS: After school and weekends.

BERNSTEIN: Weekends.

KOURPIAS: And then I found out that, uh, I could make more money shining shoes. And several Greeks had shoe parlors. In those days, shining shoes was a big deal. And, uh, uh, I worked there on Saturdays, and I'd make maybe six, seven dollars only in tips. They didn't -- no wages. And I'd get home, and my dad would take half.

BERNSTEIN: Which would have been a standard practice, right? I mean --

KOURPIAS: Yeah, yeah, sure.

BERNSTEIN: -- if you were living at home.

KOURPIAS: I was living at home --

BERNSTEIN: Yeah.

KOURPIAS: -- and I was helping, because he had no income. We were, uh, uh, so 00:13:00dependent on, on the county. And every once in a while the county --

BERNSTEIN: Because by this time he had already been injured.

KOURPIAS: Yes.

BERNSTEIN: Um.

KOURPIAS: He had been injured and then quit because somebody had to take care of my mother, who was in a nursing home for six months, and she got big bedsores, and he finally couldn't handle it, so he took her home, quit his job, and raised her. And we were, uh, products of the state. And, uh --

BERNSTEIN: So how long did you do the shoe-shining for?

KOURPIAS: Probably until, uh, I, uh, quit high school and, uh, went to Chicago. I had -- I was a smartass kid who thought I knew it all, and, uh, I was going to summer school. And I had just finished the eleventh grade, and I had flunked, uh, uh, something. I can't remember what it was, what class it was. And, uh --

BERNSTEIN: So you --

KOURPIAS: -- I started summer school, and my dad and I got into it. Um, my fault, not his. So --

BERNSTEIN: You say now. (laughs)

KOURPIAS: Yeah. Of course. And I, uh, decided to go to Chicago. And my godfather came over, everybody, the whole Greek community, "You got to stay." "No, I'm going to go." Rebellious, you know, rebellious. I just needed to get out, I guess. And, uh, I went for about nine months. And I worked for Zenith Corporation.

BERNSTEIN: You got a job easily as soon as you landed in the town?

KOURPIAS: Well, just as soon as I go there, probably -- well, I spent the first four or five days, maybe a little longer, going to see the Cubs play baseball, because they were only (laughter) -- they were only three blocks away from where my uncle lived in Chicago. So I, I worked for Zenith Corporation. Well, when I came back, then, I went to work for Wincharger Corporation, which was in Sioux City, which was a company owned by Zenith Corporation. We made generators and, 00:15:00and small, uh, radios. And, uh, uh, I was a power press operator making, uh, armatures that go onto the motors and stuff like that. And, uh, the first day I got the job there when I came back, I had, um -- my dad says, uh, "All right, what union is it?" And I says, uh, "It's the Machinist Union." Because he -- the first thing he wanted to know was did I join the union. And I said, "Machinists Union." He says, uh, "Machinists Union. Are they AF of L or CIO?" I said, "Dad, I don't know, but I think they're AF of L." He says, "Well, God damn them, that's not a good union." But I proved later in life before he died that it was.

BERNSTEIN: You got him to change his mind? So you joined, um --

KOURPIAS: Nineteen fifty-two.

BERNSTEIN: Which was as soon as you got the job in --

KOURPIAS: In Sioux City, yeah.

BERNSTEIN: -- Sioux City.

KOURPIAS: It was September, September, because I joined the union, of course, immediately, and --

BERNSTEIN: Who asked you to join?

KOURPIAS: Uh, I would think -- we went to the personnel office; I got hired. And the first day of work, the steward came by and said, uh, uh -- and it's a right to work state -- and, uh, he said, uh, "You got to join the union." And I says, "I know, I have to join the union." I said, "My dad will kill me if I don't." And, uh, I joined that day. And it'll be 60 years, September, next September, 60 years.

BERNSTEIN: Yes.

KOURPIAS: And in that 60 years, I paid dues every month excepting two, when I was on strike. And so --

BERNSTEIN: That's an impressive record.

KOURPIAS: Yeah. So, um --

BERNSTEIN: That's amazing.

KOURPIAS: I, I was an activist. I -- excuse me -- I got involved --

BERNSTEIN: From the very beginning?

KOURPIAS: -- from the beginning, yeah.

BERNSTEIN: As soon as you got the job?

KOURPIAS: Probably went to the first meeting, right when the first meeting was held after I joined. And, uh -- and, you know, helped around there and --

BERNSTEIN: What did -- do you remember the first meeting? I mean, what did you think of the -- what did you think of the --

KOURPIAS: Well, I --

BERNSTEIN: -- union when you -- before you part of it, really?

KOURPIAS: -- really -- I really fell in love with the business agent, who became my mentor. Um, and he took me under his wing. His name was John O'Connor. And, uh, that first meeting, uh, I went to, when the meeting was over with, he said, 00:18:00uh, "Come across the street and have a beer with me." And he started really working on me to be active. And I joined in September. After the first of the year, maybe February or March, the financial secretary was, uh, was caught embezzling, and they asked -- you know, John called me up, and he says, "Would you, uh, consider taking that position?" I said, "My God, I don't know anything about figures and books and stuff like that." He said, "Don't worry about it." He said, "We'll bring an auditor in and he'll help you." And I did. And I kept -- I stayed the financial secretary for 12 years, well, before I, I moved out here. But I got active, really, my father, who every day when I went home said, "What happened today?" And because of the way 00:19:00some of the people there were treated by some of their foremens. And, uh, and I could also tell that they needed help. Not just me, but they needed... And so I was kind of a, uh, very close to the business agent. I'd go out and handbill. If we handbilled the plant for some reason, I'd go out and handbill until seven o'clock when I went into the gate, went through the gate to go to work. And went to all the meetings, become the steward, and, uh, and then, uh, got active in the Woodbury County Labor Council, which was the central body there. And, uh, in 1957, uh, I was elected chairman of the negotiating committee. And, 00:20:00uh, and, uh, that's when we had the two-month strike.

BERNSTEIN: As soon as you came on the...?

KOURPIAS: Well, I we negotiated for six or seven months, couldn't get anyplace. They sent high-priced lawyers in from Chicago even to help break --

BERNSTEIN: And how many people were in the bargaining unit here?

KOURPIAS: Uh, there were about 1,200 people in the bargaining unit, and there -- and that was about 80–85% women. So we were dealing there with a situation in which -- you know, Sioux City's among farmland.

BERNSTEIN: Right.

KOURPIAS: And we were dealing with a situation where a lot of these women's husband tended to the farm, and they made extra money working in the plant, which, uh, uh, they didn't care if, uh, uh, the conditions were too bad or... It was just an extra paycheck for them.

BERNSTEIN: Right.

KOURPIAS: So organizing was, was, was quite tough. And, uh, so we -- we worked 00:21:00at it and went into negotiations, and the company -- I can remember -- I'll never forget -- they offered us three pennies, three cents, and we did a leaflet blasting the three cents. Not 3%, three cents.

BERNSTEIN: Right.

KOURPIAS: For a three-year agreement. And so we, you know, got -- had finally had a meeting to take a strike vote, and we got up and started rabble-rousing and telling people that -- and telling the women that they can do better and they ought to stand with us. And, uh, and my God, they turned it down.

BERNSTEIN: Now, well, how do you think you, uh, convinced them? I mean, you just told me they didn't --

KOURPIAS: Well, we just -- you know, getting up and answering their questions and telling them that if we stand together, we'll get what we're asking.

BERNSTEIN: It can improve, yeah.

KOURPIAS: And the whole thing was that we had to stand together. But if the 00:22:00company knew that there was a, a break in our ranks, of course we'd be in bad shape. And I -- and I -- I was young. And, uh, uh, I guess I could say that I really didn't realize that I was asking people to give up their weekly paychecks to stand for something. And the only thing I had to back up myself was my dad and the fact that in unions, there's strength, and this is the way you get it done.

BERNSTEIN: Is he supportive of the --

KOURPIAS: Oh, yes, yes.

BERNSTEIN: -- move to strike?

KOURPIAS: Absolutely.

BERNSTEIN: Yeah.

KOURPIAS: And, uh, he, uh -- he would come down to the picket line with us, and, uh -- yeah, he was a union man. And, um, so --

BERNSTEIN: Two months --

KOURPIAS: They voted, they voted -- they turned down the agreement, and we -- 00:23:00federal mediation came in and, uh, and, I mean we, of course, gotten to the point where we weren't talking to each other; we were in separate rooms. The federal mediator -- now I'll never forget -- come in, and he said, "I want to tell you guys something." He says, "Do you know that it's a right-to-work state?" He says, "You're only 65% organized." Well, that -- I was the financial secretary. I knew it was better than that, but that's what the company told them. We were about 80% organized. So it wasn't, it wasn't too bad for a right-to-work state.

BERNSTEIN: Right.

KOURPIAS: But the federal mediator sat across the table and looked at me, and he says, "George, remember, if you let them go on strike," he says, "you're going to be responsible." I said, "You mean a federal mediator's telling me that?" He says, "Well, you're not organized enough to go on strike." I says, "Listen, do they have another offer? If not, tomorrow night we're on 00:24:00strike." So we went on strike.

BERNSTEIN: Such a --

KOURPIAS: And that company was totally amazed.

BERNSTEIN: Such a mediation, huh?

KOURPIAS: So, so about, uh -- we, we went about, uh, uh, maybe three weeks, maybe close to a month, with nobody crossing the picket lines, in a right-to-work state. But we really manned it.

BERNSTEIN: Which is pretty extraord --

KOURPIAS: Yeah.

BERNSTEIN: Yeah.

KOURPIAS: We really manned, uh, and, and education and that type thing. We had, uh, uh, food banks. I mean, it was just great. So, um, uh, all the sudden we got caught by surprise. (coughs) Excuse me. We had a, um, uh, a -- we had somebody 00:25:00tell us that they thought that the company was -- you had a bunch of people that wanted to come to work, and that some day they would do it. Well, they took us by surprise one morning, and they came.

BERNSTEIN: Mm.

KOURPIAS: And I'll never, never forget the number 27. Scabs.

BERNSTEIN: That's how many? And were there -- was the picket line still fully --

KOURPIAS: Oh, yeah, fully manned.

BERNSTEIN: -- manned?

KOURPIAS: Well, that morning we only had two or three people on the picket line. The next morning -- well, that afternoon, I got -- I said, "Get the word out. We want to have as many people as we can get up to the union hall."

BERNSTEIN: Do you know where they were from, the scabs? Were they local?

KOURPIAS: Oh, no, they were from the bargaining unit.

BERNSTEIN: They were?

KOURPIAS: They were ours.

BERNSTEIN: Oh, OK.

KOURPIAS: They were not -- they were not members.

BERNSTEIN: Got it, OK.

KOURPIAS: They were not members of the Machinist--

BERNSTEIN: They were the unorganized contingent.

KOURPIAS: They were un -- the 20% --

BERNSTEIN: Yep, yep.

KOURPIAS: -- the 20, 25% that were not organized. I remember their names, some of them. But anyway, um, we got them singing labor songs, and we told the women, 00:26:00"You got to be strong. Tomorrow morning we get at the plants at 4:30. The scabs are going to be coming in about an hour, a couple hours later. Form a circle and start singing 'We Shall Not be Moved.'" Formed a circle. I stood on the sidelines, along with our business agent and the executive board, (sniffs) and they stopped -- my nose keeps -- they stopped, uh, in front of the line, the first scab, the first car. And the women kept singing, "We Shall not be Moved." And one woman, [Catherine Marine?] -- I shall never forget her -- yelled, "Get your hands off my tits," because the, uh, uh, the, uh, the 00:27:00police got out of their cars and made a decision that they were going to get -- stop --

BERNSTEIN: Move people out of the way.

KOURPIAS: -- and move them out of the way so the scabs... And this woman said, "Get your hands off my tits," and that was it. The chief of police in the news that night said, "I shall not use billy clubs on a bunch of women." So we -- it --

BERNSTEIN: So wait, did they go in that morning?

KOURPIAS: No, they didn't go in.

BERNSTEIN: They'd stopped. You stopped them.

KOURPIAS: But they went to court, the company, of course, and got an injunction against us --

BERNSTEIN: Right.

KOURPIAS: -- in which we could only have two people. So that 27 stayed, not one other person from the non-organized in the plant went in, another month. And finally, uh, through federal mediation and -- in those years, you know, it was the Eisenhower years, and the board was not favorable to us. I had, uh -- during 00:28:00that strike -- I got to tell you this -- I -- you know, I married a farm girl. She didn't -- she didn't know much about -- you know, as much as I could teach her about unionism. And we had my daughter Kathy. And somebody called the house and said, "If you don't get your husband to stop this strike, we're going to kill your baby." So I come home --

BERNSTEIN: Oh my God.

KOURPIAS: -- not knowing, you know. (chokes up) That's my age. (laughs) Anyway, I get home --

BERNSTEIN: It's traumatic.

KOURPIAS: -- and finally June says to me, "They're going to come and kill Kathy." I said, "No, no, that is not going to happen." I said, "You get 00:29:00in the car, get some clothes," and her mother and father lived 30 miles outside of Sioux City. I said, "Get" -- and she said, "I won't leave." We went on for the next month, and finally, through federal mediation, they changed the three cents to 3%, which in those days, in the '50s, was not a bad deal. But the proposal also said that the 27 people that crossed the picket line will have super seniority for 60 days. So it was a Saturday morning. We were going to vote on the agreement. God, that, that whole -- just -- I bet there 00:30:00were eight, nine hundred people in that room, second floor of the Labor Temple, which is still in Sioux City. And, uh, uh, the, um -- I was ready to get up and tell them that I would not, because I had sen -- in my job, I had seniority -- I would not go to work under any conditions in which the 27 scabs had super seniority for 60 days. What I didn't know was the Grand Lodge Representative, a guy by the name of Floyd Smith, who vanished that morning. He went to Des Moines, and he left the -- a, a letter with the recording secretary, which I didn't find out about until when I got to the union hall that morning that said, "If I were there, I would accept the agreement and recommend that you accept it." Caught me by complete surprise. Uh, I said to [Catherine Lane?], 00:31:00who was the recording secretary, I says, "Catherine, don't read it." I mean, that's how much I felt about the struggle that we had. And man, we all ought to go back, and not just -- I mean, and not give these --

BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.

KOURPIAS: -- 27 people super seniority rights. Uh, got up, made my pitch, and it passed to accept the agreement by about 50, 60 votes, whatever it was. And I can't blame them; they'd been on strike for two months. They were far -- most of them were farmers, and, uh, they weren't getting their paycheck, and, uh, they were going to get a 6% increase in wages. So, so the scabs came in for 60 days.

BERNSTEIN: What does super seniority actually --

KOURPIAS: That they --

BERNSTEIN: How does that work?

KOURPIAS: Well, super seniority, they go to the top of the list, the callback. Because the work stoppage was for two months, they didn't have the work to hire everybody back immediately. So --

BERNSTEIN: So they got the work first. I see.

KOURPIAS: That's right. They were entitled --

BERNSTEIN: So they got --

KOURPIAS: -- to their jobs first, before anybody else.

BERNSTEIN: A serious reward, basically.

KOURPIAS: Yeah.

BERNSTEIN: Yeah.

KOURPIAS: So it, uh -- And, uh, uh, my -- uh, it was a good experience for me. Um, of course, that made me, uh, be more active. And, uh, be comfortable -- a vacancy occurred on, uh, the AF of L–CIO, uh, uh, council in Sioux City, Woodbury County, and I took that, and, uh, uh, become president of our district. 00:33:00And, uh, worked with my dear friend John O'Connor. And those were great days. It, uh, it was much different than today, you know. We -- but anyway, uh, uh, got active in the state, become president of the Iowa State Council of Machinists, and, uh, I had the opportunity to -- well, Al Hayes, who was then our international president, came to our state council meeting and spoke. And then about three or four months later, um, uh, he came to celebrate the twenty-fifth anniversary of a local lodge in Dubuque, and the state council asked if I would go to Dubuque and, uh, and welcome him. So I got to know him that one night.

BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.

KOURPIAS: And, um, uh, while -- during the evening, uh, my dear friend Bill 00:34:00Fenton, who I got -- was an agent from, business agent from Des Moines, said to me, "Come here." He said, "If you're asked to go on the staff, don't say no because they only ask once." And I, uh -- and I, uh -- one day, I was running for -- see, that's another story -- I was running for state representative, uh, in 1962 in Sioux City. And, uh, my wife was down at the YMCA, and which she was making an appearance for me.

BERNSTEIN: You were running for political office?

KOURPIAS: State representative, yeah, yeah.

BERNSTEIN: OK.

KOURPIAS: And, uh, uh, I called -- I said -- I got a call. The foreman called me 00:35:00and said, uh, "You're wanted on the phone." So I got on the phone, and it was Al Hayes. He said, "George? I want you to come to Washington." I says, "Well, President Hayes, I -- you know..." He said, "Listen, I got to know by tonight. Here's my home number." I said, "Well, Al, uh, I'm running for state representative." He says, "George, the job is open today." So I went home. I, I, I left, and -- uh, the plant. I punched out. And, uh, in those days I was working more outside than I was in the plant, which was permitted under our agreement. And, uh, found June. She says, "Hell yes, we're going." Best move I ever made, so. I'm sorry, I just --

BERNSTEIN: It wasn't a big debate between you and --

KOURPIAS: No.

BERNSTEIN: You all -- you saw --

KOURPIAS: My mother came with us.

BERNSTEIN: Really?

KOURPIAS: Yeah. My dad had passed away, and my mother came with us. She took care of my -- my wife took care of her for four or five years until she passed away. But, uh, you make those moves without really thinking sometimes when you're young. You're challenged, and, you know. So it, it was a move that, uh, was the best thing that ever happened to me.

BERNSTEIN: Had you -- before -- you were running for state representative --

KOURPIAS: Yes.

BERNSTEIN: -- so did you envision yourself as a political -- ?

KOURPIAS: Yeah. I mean, you know --

BERNSTEIN: As a politician in the long run?

KOURPIAS: The Democrats, I was very involved in the Democratic Party, and I had no ideas during that period of time that I would go on the staff, and, uh, uh, the union people with different unions in Sioux City said to me, "George, we 00:37:00want you to run," so I ran. And, uh, when I got the call, then I called my dear friend Harry Smith, the attorney, who was my campaign manager, and I said, "You know, Harry? I don't know what to do." He says, "George, you got to stay within the union." He says, "Politically, you could be dead two years from now." And I said, "You know, I think that's the decision I was going to make." And, uh, uh, I kept it quiet that I was going -- for a week, until the primary was over. And I won the primary overwhelming, and then the next day announced that I had been called to go to Washington and therefore was going to give up the seat. But the Democrats gathered, and I had already come to 00:38:00Washington, and June, she, uh, uh, nominated my friend [Jim Wingert?], and he went on to get elected to the state legislature. And the night that he was elected I got a call from them all in celebration, saying, "If you'd been here, you would have gone to the state legislature." And I sat down and cried. (laughter) Uh.

BERNSTEIN: So you missed out on Iowa, but --

KOURPIAS: Yeah. It -- I mean, and it was a good move, and, uh -- I think, uh, the 12 years that I had, uh, active in the local were really, which, taught me an awful lot. It taught me an awful lot about how you treat people. And it was good. It, uh, uh -- we, uh -- June and I did what we thought was right, and it 00:39:00turned out pretty good for us.

BERNSTEIN: So can I ask you how you met?

KOURPIAS: Oh, yes. (laughs)

BERNSTEIN: Because somehow you got married in there without me hearing about it, so --

KOURPIAS: Yeah. Well, uh --

BERNSTEIN: -- back up a little bit.

KOURPIAS: Yeah. Uh, we, uh, were attempting -- I got a call one night from a -- her last name was Dodd, and her husband was a foreman in the plant at Wincharger. And, um, uh, she called and said, "George, we need to be organized." They worked at a plant downtown, and there were about 40 of them. And they made coils that they gave, uh, for the radios. And they did it for Zenith -- uh, for Zenith or Wincharger where I worked. And, uh, uh, so I called John O'Connor, the business agent. I said, "John, I got a lead. (laughs) 00:40:00We're going to -- we're going to do some organizing." He says, "What do you got?" I told him. He says, "OK." He says, uh, "Call her back and tell her next Tuesday to come up to the Labor Temple and we'll meet with them." So Tuesday comes, and, uh, about 10, 15 of them showed up, and June was there. (coughs) So I says, uh -- after it's over with, I said to O'Connor, I said, "Well, did you see that blonde?" And he just looked and me and says, "Hey, we're organizing." So a week later, we had another meeting, and we -- they had got all the cards, and they brought them to us, and John got up, and he says, "Now, if you'd like, anybody that wants to join us" -- in those days -- we were talking about this last night -- in those days, every union hall had a bar next door to it or something, you know, where people went, and it was in a way good, too, because that's where people congregated after the meeting.

BERNSTEIN: Right.

KOURPIAS: And, uh, uh, Johnny gets up and he says, "Join us for a beer if you'd like." So June came over with about ten of them. And John says to me, "George, we're on an organizing campaign. No fooling around." He says, "We're going to go, we're going to sit at the bar, we'll buy them a drink, and that's going to be it." And I says, "OK." All of a sudden something hits me. And I look, and I look on the floor. It was a peanut. So I waited and got hit again. I said, "John, I'm a little bit -- turn around, and" -- he turned around, and she -- June was throwing another peanut. (laughter) He says, "That blonde." (laughter) I says, "You're kidding." I says, "John, I love organizing, I'd do anything for my union, but she's calling me, John." (laughter) So I got up and visited with her. 00:42:00And we won the election. We started dating. We won the election, but the company -- the Eisenhower years, the board was against us -- the company threatened them the day before the election that if they voted union, they were going to move.

BERNSTEIN: Wow. Even then.

KOURPIAS: Even -- yeah, in the Eisenhower years.

BERNSTEIN: Even then. Yeah. Huh.

KOURPIAS: So, uh, what happened was we sat down with the company, John and I, and signed an outstanding agreement. And then a month later they announced they were moving to Yankton, South Dakota, which was about 40 miles away but in a different state.

BERNSTEIN: Right.

KOURPIAS: So we were done. Well, June lost her job.

BERNSTEIN: Huh.

KOURPIAS: And, uh, she got a job at Kraft making marshmallows, and then she lost that job. And we were dating. And my story is that I felt sorry for her, so I married her. (laughter) But, uh, that's that story. That's how we met. The 00:43:00kids love to tell that to people.

BERNSTEIN: That's a good one.

KOURPIAS: Yeah. And she's been by my side all those years.

BERNSTEIN: So there was a bar next door to the union hall?

KOURPIAS: Yeah, the Embassy Square.

BERNSTEIN: Yeah.

KOURPIAS: And in those days, I -- you know, people were, uh -- how can I say this? -- uh, very close to each other. I mean, most all of us were Depression babies. We, we knew what suffering and being poor was, and we hung around together pretty well. And there was, uh, two or three, uh, uh, uh, bars right where the Labor Temple was at, and hell, if I went looking for John at the union and he wasn't there, hell, there was no cell phones in those days, I'd just 00:44:00walk across the street; he might be in one of the bars talking to our members.

BERNSTEIN: Yeah.

KOURPIAS: And, uh --

BERNSTEIN: How did --

KOURPIAS: -- so that was --

BERNSTEIN: How did you manage to keep the local together after the strike?

KOURPIAS: Well, that was --

BERNSTEIN: Because that's a hard --

KOURPIAS: It was a very hard situation simply because the union always gets blamed, no matter what. I mean, you never hear a member of ours condemn the company after a situation like this, notwithstanding the fact that we, we struck for our rights, we struck because we deserved more money, and we got it for our members, but we were still to blame for the two months that they were out. And it was tough. And there was a dropoff, and I'm glad you raised this point, because there was a dropoff after the strike, because in those years in a right-to-work state, all you had to do was write a note and send it to the company --

BERNSTEIN: Oh, they didn't have to --

KOURPIAS: -- and, and they'd stop --

BERNSTEIN: -- talk to you or have any --

KOURPIAS: No. They just -- well, they notified us. They had to notify us, and give us a copy of the resignation slip. And I think it's probably the same today. So we had a slew of people, maybe it could have gone up maybe a couple hundred. And we just start making house calls.

BERNSTEIN: Just basically started --

KOURPIAS: Yeah, because --

BERNSTEIN: -- all over again, organizing.

KOURPIAS: Yeah. And, and the thing was to -- especially with the women -- is to be able to visit with the husbands, to let them understand a little bit better what this thing was all about. And it was a chore, and we start after maybe a year or two start building up again, but it probably went down to 60%. But never below 50. Because I, I, you know, I was a financial secretary, right? I kept the books, and I could tell. Uh, the company had to give us layoff notices and 00:46:00stuff. So I could tell by that. But that in a right-to-work state is tough. And that's what I tell, always told our members that are in union-secure states. I said, "In a right-to-work state, you have to organize every, every day."

BERNSTEIN: Yeah.

KOURPIAS: In a, in a place where you have union security, once you get them, they can't get out anyway.

BERNSTEIN: It's a huge difference.

KOURPIAS: Yeah.

BERNSTEIN: So were there -- was there a social element? Aside from the bar. I mean, in other, in other places, there are labor, labor --

KOURPIAS: Oh, sure. We had --

BERNSTEIN: -- picnics and...

KOURPIAS: -- labor picnics. We, um, uh -- we -- in those days, my lodge had two meetings a month, one at four o'clock and one at eight o'clock. And the one at four o'clock was really for the women because they had to have babysitters 00:47:00and stuff. So they could come to the meeting at four o'clock. The union hall was 15 minutes from the plant. And they could come to the union meeting at the four o'clock meeting, go home, cook, and take care of their kids.

BERNSTEIN: Right.

KOURPIAS: But for them to come to an eight o'clock meeting is kind of tough. I mean, by the time you got to get the kids to bed and this type of... So we had two meetings a month. And we, we, we would have special occasions where, uh, we might have pizza in or, uh, when we had election of officers we always had, uh, food and, uh, and drinks. We had a Christmas party. Uh, so yeah, we had those activities, absolutely. And the really, really important, keeping people together and understanding, or having a better understanding of the trade union movement.

BERNSTEIN: Yeah. Labor Day parades?

KOURPIAS: Labor Day. Well, we had parades until -- I think the last one was about 1961 or '62. And we had -- we had good parades. But, you know, when we look back at that history, that -- it started fading off. I mean, the real activist, the, the Depression babies.

BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.

KOURPIAS: Uh, uh. As it is today, you know, too many situations our people think that either the company gave them what they got without a struggle -- again, the unions get blamed if the company doesn't. So it's a -- it's a struggle out there.

BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.

KOURPIAS: But we, we used to have some, some good parades in Sioux City, and all across the country.

BERNSTEIN: Yeah, yeah.

KOURPIAS: Yeah.

BERNSTEIN: Do people wear their pins? I mean, you know what, I, I'm, I'm trying to get a description of Sioux City --

KOURPIAS: Yeah.

BERNSTEIN: -- and like how -- in other places we describe this sort of culture of solidarity.

KOURPIAS: Yeah.

BERNSTEIN: And you talk about it, you know, before the strike, building it up in the local --

KOURPIAS: Yeah.

BERNSTEIN: -- but what about in the larger -- ? Like when your meeting other people, is there -- would you wear your pin, and --

KOURPIAS: Oh, yes, we -- and I'll tell you what --

BERNSTEIN: -- people from other unions would --

KOURPIAS: -- people were good -- yeah.

BERNSTEIN: -- recognize it and --

KOURPIAS: Would recognize, yeah.

BERNSTEIN: -- acknowledge it and appreciate it.

KOURPIAS: And, and by the way, uh, we used to order those pins quite often, because we always had them available at the meetings --

BERNSTEIN: Yeah.

KOURPIAS: -- and we also gave them to stewards to pass around their departments. And when a steward -- when a steward did, then you could tell for about a week or two. The women --

BERNSTEIN: Uh-huh.

KOURPIAS: -- and the men, they wore their Machinist, uh, button. And, and so many instances people just said, "And I'm proud of it too," you know. But yeah, oh, yes. Uh, and I -- and I -- today it's not the button. Today it's the jackets --

BERNSTEIN: Right.

KOURPIAS: -- and the shirts.

BERNSTEIN: Right.

KOURPIAS: And you don't see the buttons like, uh, uh --

BERNSTEIN: Like you did then.

KOURPIAS: -- in my time. Well, we probably couldn't afford the shirts (laughs) and the jackets. (clears throat) Excuse me.

BERNSTEIN: So. OK. So you get the call after basically meeting him for one -- twice.

KOURPIAS: Twice, twice.

BERNSTEIN: And somehow you made an impression.

KOURPIAS: Well, the story -- the story everybody tells, kiddingly, that when he met my wife, he danced with her --

BERNSTEIN: Ah.

KOURPIAS: -- and that's why I went to Washington.

BERNSTEIN: It was all to you -- all to her. (laughs)

KOURPIAS: Yeah. He was a -- he was a very astute, a different type of, uh, of president than there is today as far as activism is concerned. Al Hayes, uh, was a scholar. I mean, he -- everything, uh, had to be written. Everything -- he was strict on, uh, how people did things. Uh, uh, I'd write those decisions on 00:51:00trials and stuff for him, and, uh, and boy, he'd look them over, and I'll never forget the looks on his face. But, um, probably for two reasons. Bill Fenton, who had a good reputation around the country, he was the Grand Lodge Representative in the Midwest, in the Sioux City, Des Moines area. And a dear friend [Johnny Grogan?], and Johnny Grogan was a business agent in Dubuque. And in Al Hayes's younger years as a Grand Lodge Representative, he serviced Dubuque --

BERNSTEIN: Ah.

KOURPIAS: -- and they were very good friends. And for some reason, um, Johnny and I become good friends. I mean, he really, really liked me. So I think it was a little of that, too. I can't say, you know, he was thrilled about what I do and this type of thing and my intellect. It was people telling him that --

BERNSTEIN: That you were --

KOURPIAS: -- I was a young man and, uh --

BERNSTEIN: With a lot of potential.

KOURPIAS: Yeah, yeah.

BERNSTEIN: And you went there -- you came to headquarters and you immediately got -- what was your job definition?

KOURPIAS: My -- I was -- my definition was to handle appeals and grievances. And in those years -- and I don't think Tom Buffenbarger's even going to have one to go to the convention, because the end result was you had, you had three steps, and then they went to the convention every four years with appeals and grievances.

BERNSTEIN: OK.

KOURPIAS: It was a judicial end of our union. And, uh, uh, I would -- the guy that I replaced retired, Bill Dameron, and Bill was like Al Hayes: very strict, wanted to make -- Well, I, I was a little different. I mean, uh, I didn't 00:53:00write four- or five-page decisions. I wrote a page or two decisions. And finally Al started getting used to it. But, uh, I, uh, uh, from that got the good experience of what members think, because members could, under the constitution, under Article L, could file charges against each other. You could file charges against the local. The trials are held. I had to read the transcript to make sure that everything was done according to the constitution. And then --

BERNSTEIN: So where would it -- trials -- these would -- trials would be held on the --

KOURPIAS: On the local level.

BERNSTEIN: On the local level.

KOURPIAS: Or the district level. Or the international president had the right to appoint a special committee. They could ask for a special committee.

BERNSTEIN: For, for problems that were --

KOURPIAS: Yeah, for very serious problems, and which the International president 00:54:00would then appoint three people to be on the trial committee and to conduct the trial.

BERNSTEIN: So do you remember -- when you f-- do you remember the first -- your first, um, decision?

KOURPIAS: I was scared to death.

BERNSTEIN: I, I, it seemed like you were sort of --

KOURPIAS: Because I --

BERNSTEIN: -- thrown into a very different, uh, environment than you'd ever --

KOURPIAS: It was. It was. One of the questions asked -- my vice president, Roy Siemiller, who then become president, Al Hayes said to him, "Find out what George" -- and it was at one of these gatherings -- "can he give dictation? Has he given dictation?" In those years, dictation was the big deal.

BERNSTEIN: Right.

KOURPIAS: I didn't know what the hell dictation was. You know, Siemiller come up to me, and he says, "Uh, do you take dictation?" I mean, "Do you give dictation? Did you do that with the secretary?" And I said, "I don't know what that -- Roy, I don't know what the hell you're talking about." (laughter) I said, "Whatever it is, I didn't do it." So, uh, uh, I had to -- what was the question? (laughter)

BERNSTEIN: Your first case, the first decision --

KOURPIAS: Oh, yeah.

BERNSTEIN: -- that you had to --

KOURPIAS: So I got -- yeah, I was very nervous, and --

BERNSTEIN: -- research and investigate.

KOURPIAS: But Bill Dameron, who I found out later was really in love with my secretary -- and she was a beauti-- a wonderful person, who had never been married. And there was nothing between them, it was just that she would -- I could tell, because I'd come to work every morning and she'd say, "Should we call Bill today?" Well, Bill started coming in, and that would make me nervous, because he'd, "I want to help you, George," and this type of stuff. But the general counsel, [Plato Plapps], who ended up being a dear brother of mine, he, uh, come into my office one night, and he says, "George, I want to tell you something. I want you on this decision" -- he had the file -- "you write the decision in your own words, do your own research. Don't let Bill get involved." And I did. And thank God I broke away from having to 00:56:00depend on him. And there were like cases of, uh, crossing the picket line was the biggest thing that we'd filed charges immediately, or the local would. Uh, malfeasance in office, uh, that type of stuff. And he was the type of, uh, general counsel, wrote a lot of labor law, that didn't think that -- let me put it this way -- that you didn't have to spend time for a ten-page decision when you can do it in two or three paragraphs and have the people, um, in the local understand what they're up against or why you made that decision. And I started getting compliments from around saying, "Hey, George, I like the way you write." And hey, you know, I didn't graduate from high school. So, but I 00:57:00read a lot of decisions when I got there. I mean, I was there alone till my family came, and I probably stayed in the office till ten o'clock every night, just reading the decisions, trying to put my own mind. So I, I did that. And, uh, then, uh, uh, they, uh, assigned me to, as a liaison person with the National Labor Relations Board. Uh, which, uh, uh, I would attend meetings and, uh, uh, watch the case load of our cases before the board. And then on occasion I'd go up and visit with whoever was handling, which board member was handling the case and discuss it with him. But before I'd get to that point, I always sat down with our general counsel and found out from him exactly what, uh, uh, 00:58:00what his opinion should be and this type of thing. So I did that. And then, uh, Roy C. Miller becomes president, and he calls me in one day -- excuse me -- and he says, uh, "I want you to call up this Bill Hutton. He's the, the executive director of the National Council of Senior Citizens, and he wants us to have a representative on the board. And I want you to call him up and, you know, George, take him out to lunch, see what's involved.

BERNSTEIN: You must have been fairly young at this point.

KOURPIAS: Thirty-two. (laughter) Or 33, someplace in there.

BERNSTEIN: Yeah.

KOURPIAS: And I went to the office and I said, I said, "They're trying to get rid of me." So I called my dear friend Wimpy. I said, "Wimp" -- I'm getting a cold.

BERNSTEIN: Oh.

KOURPIAS: I said, "They're assigning me to the senior citizens." He says, "What?" (laughter) I said, "Yeah." I says, "Geez, you know, I don't know nothing about old people." And he says, "Well, I think, you know, George, if they ain't got nobody else to do it, I guess they're giving it to you." So, uh, I called up Bill Hutton, and I said, "Bill, I -- you and I are supposed to work together, and what is it that you need?" And he said, "Well, I need for the Machinists to start setting up retiree clubs across the country." And Bill Hutton was a colonel in the British Army, and he was a British war bride. (laughter) He met his wife Miriam in Geneva when he was 01:00:00stationed there from England. He knew Winston Churchill, he was quite a man. And she brought him to the States. They got married, and she brought him to the States. And he went into PR work, and, uh, he's quite a newsman. But anyway, uh, he and I -- he helped me -- give me some ideas in developing senior citizen clubs, uh, in the union. Um, I went on the board. And, you know, I, I start working with seniors, and I fell in love with them.

BERNSTEIN: Huh.

KOURPIAS: So I kept that. I mean, several times they asked me -- until -- when I become a vice president, I gave it up. Because I loved it so much. And several times they said to me, "Well, we'll get somebody else to do it, George." I said, "No, I like this," going to their conferences and stuff. So I did that too. And then when, uh --

BERNSTEIN: Did you start setting up retiree clubs around the country?

KOURPIAS: Oh, yeah. Matt DeMore, who's our secretary–treasurer, and I traveled -- the first trip we made was from Florida to Illinois to all parts of California. And to organize clubs, and it was the year that Paul Douglas needed help in Illinois, the old grand senator from Illinois.

BERNSTEIN: Mm.

KOURPIAS: And we went to Illinois to see if we could help him. And we were on the road for four or five weeks, organizing clubs, but through the organizing of the clubs, getting them involved in the political campaigns in those states.

BERNSTEIN: Right.

KOURPIAS: And, um, um, that, that was quite an adventure, and it -- it, it was great. And seniors liked the idea that their union has not forgotten them. It's very important.

BERNSTEIN: So that was in 1966 that you started that?

KOURPIAS: Sixty-six, yeah.

BERNSTEIN: Yeah, yeah.

KOURPIAS: And then, uh, Wimpy, uh, become executive vice president. No, he become pres-- vice president of transportation. And he, he and I were, uh, uh, were really -- I mean, we just, uh, hit it off from the beginning. Um. He taught me a lot. And, um, we rode to work together, we partied together, our families were together. And he, he was -- I wish you would have got to know him. He was just something that, that there was no other in the labor movement like him, in my opinion. But, uh, worked very closely with him, and then he was moved upstairs as executive vice president, and we brought in somebody else to be vice 01:03:00president of, uh, transportation. And I become his -- in those days we didn't call them AAs. They call them AAs now. But, uh, uh, we -- where everybody knew that, uh, this is the administrative assistant to the international president or to the general vice president. So, uh, I took on those responsibilities when Wimp come upstairs.

BERNSTEIN: And that was in about the -- when was that?

KOURPIAS: About -- let's see, I think I become vice president in sixty -- I mean, in '83.

BERNSTEIN: Uh-huh.

KOURPIAS: Yeah, this might be around 1980, '81, someplace in there. Yeah.

BERNSTEIN: Great.

KOURPIAS: So I worked for him and for the international president, and, uh, then --

BERNSTEIN: So that was, that was a dramatic time in the labor movement right then. What was your (inaudible)?

KOURPIAS: Well, for us it was. Uh, um --

BERNSTEIN: And isn't that when the big OPEC, um -- isn't that -- or is that a little later? When Wimpy s -- has a big initiative against OPEC. Isn't that in that time?

KOURPIAS: Yeah, that was the gas, uh, situation, yes.

BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.

KOURPIAS: Yeah, that's -- he -- that's one of the things that, uh -- he files suit against OPEC --

BERNSTEIN: Right.

KOURPIAS: -- about the, uh, uh, their monopoly of setting prices.

BERNSTEIN: And did you work with him on that? I mean, were you -- ?

KOURPIAS: Not, not really. Plato Papps, our general counsel, did --

BERNSTEIN: Uh-huh.

KOURPIAS: -- and we had outside, outside experts, attorneys, that, that handled that with him. And, uh, the biggest thing that came out of that was the surprise of people that you could sue OPEC. You know.

BERNSTEIN: It's still astonishing. (laughter)

KOURPIAS: Yeah. And I'll never forget, we were in the car going to Wimp-- we were, uh, car race enthusiasts, and finally bought a car and raced a car. And, uh, uh, we were going to a race in California, and Bud Melvin, in those days, who handled that for us, brought this attorney that was a friend of his. And the attorney turned around to Wimp and he said, "You ought to sue the son-of-a-bitches." And Wimp says, "Hey, what do you think?" He says, "Well, let's -- you give me the OK and I'll proceed." And I'll never forget, we got back to Washington and he called Plato Papps in, our general counsel, and Wimpy said, "Plato, get ready. We're going to take the big boys 01:06:00on. We're going to file a suit against OPEC."

BERNSTEIN: And he didn't respond (inaudible).

KOURPIAS: And Plato looked at him and he says, "You can't do that." (laughs) So, uh, yeah. You know, we spent a lot of money on it, but more than anything, it highlighted in this country the monopoly and the power that they have to this day, to this day.

BERNSTEIN: Yeah.

KOURPIAS: And, uh, uh, yeah, that was one of the many things that, uh -- and then Wimp organized the Energy Coalition in Washington, and Heather Booth -- I don't know if you're familiar with that name --

BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.

KOURPIAS: -- and Barbara Shailor, who finally ended up working for us. Um, uh, become a powerful group around the country. And a guy by the name of [Brandon?] 01:07:00took it over at one point. And, um, Wimp, uh, really believed that what we were, uh, lacking in the Machinists Union was the exposure to the outside world, that there were organizations throughout America that would like to be part of the movement, with the movement. You know what I, I'm saying.

BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.

KOURPIAS: It, it -- and he formed these coalitions. And during that period of time, and I can remember many times saying to him, "Wimp, you -- don't neglect our members." He'd say, "What do you mean? I'm not neglecting them." But I said, "Every goddamn place we go, not only is our business agent there, but some other group is there to greet you." And sometimes --

BERNSTEIN: Huh.

KOURPIAS: -- it didn't sit too well with --

BERNSTEIN: With the members?

KOURPIAS: -- our people, with -- yeah, with our officers and stuff. But he got them across. I mean, he, he convinced them that that was the thing to do. And, and that was his -- his big deal was to first reintroduce the Machinists Union, and he wanted that to become also the total labor movement, and that's why Wimp would blast George Meany. I mean, reporters just loved to interview him because he always said things like, you know, uh, uh, uh, "My God, he ought to drop dead," was one of his sayings. "You know, it'd be good for the labor movement." Well, nobody was supposed to say that about the king.

BERNSTEIN: No.

KOURPIAS: And that type of thing, you see.

BERNSTEIN: Yeah.

KOURPIAS: And, um, so, you know, he, he, uh, he really introduced us to the community at large, and they got to meet our people around the country, and that was a good thing.

BERNSTEIN: You want to take a break?

KOURPIAS: We can do that.

BERNSTEIN: Yeah?

KOURPIAS: What time is it?

BERNSTEIN: It's, uh --

BERNSTEIN: Say something?

KOURPIAS: Hello. (laughs)

BERNSTEIN: OK. The lines are working, so that's good. So I think we skipped ahead a little bit.

KOURPIAS: Yeah.

BERNSTEIN: I want to go back to when you first come to headquarters. It's 1964.

KOURPIAS: Yes.

BERNSTEIN: Um, and you come to work on the legal -- internal legal affairs, for the most part.

KOURPIAS: Yeah.

BERNSTEIN: And then how -- and pretty soon you get involved in the Senior Citizens Council. And as the liaison to the NLRB. But so let's talk about those years before -- we, we jumped straight to Wimpy.

KOURPIAS: OK, yeah.

BERNSTEIN: And there's a, a stretch of time. He --

KOURPIAS: Sure.

BERNSTEIN: He comes in, I think, at -- in '67, as a GVP --

KOURPIAS: Yes.

BERNSTEIN: -- and then is president in '77.

KOURPIAS: Yes.

BERNSTEIN: So for the '60s, at least, you're still working with...

KOURPIAS: With, um, Roy Siemiller, uh --

BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.

KOURPIAS: -- and, uh, uh --

BERNSTEIN: And Smith.

KOURPIAS: And Smith, yes. Right. And, um, Siemiller was, uh, had just become president when, uh, when I came to headquarters.

BERNSTEIN: Uh-huh, mm-hmm.

KOURPIAS: There's a little story on that, that, uh, uh, during the, um, strike that we talked about, um, this Grand Lodge Representative, Floyd Smith, who, uh, 01:11:00encouraged people to accept the agreement, um, he, uh, he -- I, I sat down the afternoon after the vote was taken, and I felt so bad that I wrote Al Hayes a letter. And in that letter I told him how disappointed I was in the Grand Lodge, in the fact that this was a representative of this office.

BERNSTEIN: Yeah.

KOURPIAS: So I sent that letter. Somebody at headquarters -- and I can't say that Al Hayes ever seen it -- but somebody sent it, my letter with a letter to Floyd Smith to have him investigate what I had in the letter. Well, the letter I sent to headquarters was about Floyd Smith!

BERNSTEIN: It was about him!

KOURPIAS: So, um, uh, that happened, and, um, from that day on, this guy was out to get me. And, uh --

BERNSTEIN: Smith?

KOURPIAS: Smith. And when I, then several years later, I'm -- uh, I get the appointment, and I come to Washington, I move my kids -- I'm broke. I had just enough money to put a d-- a payment on, on a house. And the convention is held, the Grand Lodge convention, Al Hayes's last, was held in Miami. And this Floyd Smith told Siemiller, who was to become president, that, uh, uh, uh, that, uh, I said that nowhere, no way would Roy Siemiller -- I went back to Washington -- to Sioux City, and I told people back there that no way would, uh, uh, Siemiller ever become president because Hayes didn't want him to be president. Well, as a staff person, I wasn't supposed to get my nose in that, and I did not make 01:13:00that comment. This was a way of him getting back at me. So after the convention, Al Hayes's secretary come to me and said, "Boy, Al is really mad at you." I said, "Why?" And I, I had been there, you know, just several months. And she says, Well, something said, Floyd Smith, all of that, and oh God. So Hayes had a cottage up in Wisconsin, and after the convention he went up there for a couple weeks of vacation. And he came back, and he called me in his office. And I was scared to death. Here I'd moved my family. I says, God, they fire me -- I mean. So he tells me what I was supposedly have said. And he says -- so he told me that, and then he said, "Who, uh, uh, witnessed this? Where would -- ?" I tell him, "Well, John O'Connor was there, and he's the guy I talked 01:14:00to, and I did not say that Siemiller would never become president of this union." He says, "OK." He said -- he was a very stern guy, Al was -- he looked at me. He said, "OK, go back to your office. I got to check a few things out." So I go to my office, call my buddy Plato -- and Wimpy and I hadn't known each other then -- and I said, "Plato, this happened." He said, "Just keep it cool, keep it cool." I said, "What am I going to do? I don't even have money to move my family back, for crying out loud." So, uh, uh, what happened was then Siemiller wrote John O'C onnor and he wrote him. They left me hanging for about two weeks.

BERNSTEIN: Not knowing --

KOURPIAS: Not knowing what --

BERNSTEIN: Really?

KOURPIAS: -- my -- yeah. So, uh, finally I get called in, and I says, Oh, God.

BERNSTEIN: This is in Washington now --

KOURPIAS: Yeah.

BERNSTEIN: -- not up in, in Hayes's vacation -- ?

KOURPIAS: But I had got a letter that John O'Connor sent Al Hayes, where he blasted, uh, Smith, and tell him I had never mentioned anything like that like that to him.

BERNSTEIN: Good.

KOURPIAS: Thank God. So I come in, and he looks at me, and he said, uh, "Young man. I've checked that story out. Go back to your office, everything's all right." (laughter) Wow. I was glad he was going to retire soon. (laughter) But anyway, then what happened was --

BERNSTEIN: Oh my goodness.

KOURPIAS: -- Siemiller got the nod that he was going to run. And when I -- right when I found it out, the next time Siemiller was in Washington, I grabbed him. I said, "Would you do me a favor, Roy, and come into my office?" I said, "Roy, I didn't make that -- " He says, "George, you're clear." He said, "I know what happened." I said, "OK." Because he was coming in, and if he still believed it --

BERNSTEIN: Right.

KOURPIAS: -- I'd get fired by him. And in those days, they fired. (laughter) So that's, uh --

BERNSTEIN: That's, uh, quite a little bit of drama there for your, uh --

KOURPIAS: Yeah, for just being brand new and being there and being young and, uh, with three kids, you know, and a mother. (laughter)

BERNSTEIN: Right, you moved your mother and your kids to Washington.

KOURPIAS: Yeah. My sister came with my mother. We flew her in. Then my sister stayed with us until she got married, four or five years. So in a three-bedroom home, we were pretty packed.

BERNSTEIN: Whew. A lot of peo -- a lot of people riding on whether or not you were, uh --

KOURPIAS: Going to be around. (laughter)

BERNSTEIN: -- going to get in trouble there. (laughter) So you were -- you came first with Hayes, but that was only a couple of years, and then Siemiller --

KOURPIAS: Yeah, that was less than a couple of years. No, that was about a year --

BERNSTEIN: OK.

KOURPIAS: -- because I came in May, and, uh, uh, Al Hayes retired, uh, uh, a year and a half later, yeah.

BERNSTEIN: And how did things change when Siemiller came in, from your -- in terms of what you were doing?

KOURPIAS: Oh, good. Roy was, uh -- he was a, uh -- Al Hayes was the type of guy that stayed in his office, hated to go out around the country, and, uh -- and, you know, he had -- he was serving the beginning, I think, of his fourth term. And he, he abandoned the field, just about, I'd say.

BERNSTEIN: Mmm.

KOURPIAS: You know, I mean, he'd go to -- go to s-- make speeches, but probably not -- Siemiller, he traveled -- he was hardly ever at headquarters. So he really depended on his staff, because, I mean, he went to every corner of this country. And, uh, and, uh, traveled -- it was under his administrations, uh, the railroad struck, and, uh, Lyndon Johnson called him to the White House, 01:18:00and, uh, and, uh, they finally got a blue-ribbon committee under the Emergency Act of Congress, and the railroaders went back to work, and, uh, Siemiller and, uh, and Lyndon didn't get along too well. And then, uh, the airlines struck in 1966, uh, and, uh, that was a burden for him, and, uh --

BERNSTEIN: And were you doing backup work for that --

KOURPIAS: I wasn't doing much of that, no.

BERNSTEIN: -- or that wasn't your main -- that wasn't your bailiwick?

KOURPIAS: No, the railroad coordinator and his people --

BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.

KOURPIAS: -- and the airline coordinator and his people would handle that stuff. But, uh, uh, it -- those were good days with Roy. He, uh -- he understood, he let you do your job, and, uh, he expected you to do your job, and he just stayed 01:19:00away from you. Just, uh, you know. So I had a good relationship with him. He served one term. That's why he kept saying that he had to get things done, because he only had one term. He couldn't run again. In those years we had a 65 limit.

BERNSTEIN: Oh, because of the age. Got it.

KOURPIAS: Yeah.

BERNSTEIN: So he knew he had a --

KOURPIAS: Yeah. And he -- Siemiller, uh, never graduated from -- I don't think he graduated from junior school. And was a railroad mechanic. Uh, but I'll tell you, he's a bright guy. And he, he debated on Walter Cronkite, half an hour on CBS. When the airline went on strike --

BERNSTEIN: Uh-huh.

KOURPIAS: -- he debated their chief executive and did one hell of a job.

BERNSTEIN: No kidding.

KOURPIAS: So, yeah, he was, he was good.

BERNSTEIN: I would love to have a copy of that, huh?

KOURPIAS: Huh?

BERNSTEIN: Would love to have a copy of that, a recording of that.

KOURPIAS: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. It may be someplace, I don't know. But, uh, in those days we didn't keep as many things as they do today. Thank God. (laughter)

BERNSTEIN: So you spent most of your time traveling?

KOURPIAS: I spent --

BERNSTEIN: Or most of your time --

KOURPIAS: Yeah. And that began when Roy become president, and then there was an opening on the Machinist Non-Partisan Political League. And I became part of that, and then when Wimpy became, uh, um, Wimpy became president, then I --

BERNSTEIN: Or vice president first.

KOURPIAS: Or vice president --

BERNSTEIN: Yeah.

KOURPIAS: -- I, I went over and become vice chair of the Machinists Non-Partisan Political League.

BERNSTEIN: So he becomes vice president in '67.

KOURPIAS: Yeah.

BERNSTEIN: And then the around the same time, you get involved in --

KOURPIAS: Yeah, more in politics.

BERNSTEIN: More in politics.

KOURPIAS: Yes.

BERNSTEIN: And so tell me about the Non-Partisan League.

KOURPIAS: Uh, it was organized, I believe, in, in 1947, after the Taft–Hartley 01:21:00law was enacted, and specifically to in the future be prepared --

BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.

KOURPIAS: -- for, uh, for, um --

BERNSTEIN: The next big attack.

KOURPIAS: Yes.

BERNSTEIN: On labor. (laughs)

KOURPIAS: Yeah. And, uh, uh, it was made up of, uh, the three vice chairmen, was the president, uh, the, uh, uh, the secretary–treasurer and resident vice president, and I chaired the meetings for him. And, um, the League, um, received money from the local lodges, and then we voted on how to dispense the money. And we would -- the political director would sit with the committee and go through -- and by the way, that's now changed -- and go through all the requests, and then a motion was in order to, to contribute --

BERNSTEIN: So request from whom? From campaigns?

KOURPIAS: From politicians, from people --

BERNSTEIN: Local to federal, all -- ?

KOURPIAS: We -- our -- what we did --

BERNSTEIN: What, what was the scope of --

KOURPIAS: Because of the law, because of the law, they would write us and we would take action to make the contribution. So every, every, um, contribution that was made went through the MNPL executive committee first, and then we'd send a check back to the director of the local in which this politician lives --

BERNSTEIN: Right.

KOURPIAS: -- for him to deliver. I delivered the first Machinist check to George McGovern.

BERNSTEIN: No kidding.

KOURPIAS: See, George grew up and come from Aberdeen, South Dakota, which was about 50, 60 miles from Sioux City.

BERNSTEIN: Uh-huh.

KOURPIAS: And I get this letter from Jack O'Brien, who was then the executive 01:23:00director of the League, saying to me, Please -- McGovern's going to be at this gathering in Yankton at a certain time. Deliver this check. I think it was less than 1,000. It might have been 500. I took the check and I went to the meeting. And when he came into the room -- and I was nervous. Young kid, you know. I went in and said, "Mr. McGovern," I said, uh, "this check I'm presenting to you on behalf of the Machinists Non-Partisan Political League." He says, "Oh my God, George, that's wonderful." He starts his speech by saying -- and they're all farmers in this room, small farm community -- taking the check and saying, "This is from the Machinists Union, and I am so proud to accept it." 01:24:00I reminded him that many years later. (laughs)

BERNSTEIN: That's im -- that's impressive.

KOURPIAS: You know, I need a, a drink.

BERNSTEIN: Oh.

KOURPIAS: Uh --

BERNSTEIN: We can --

KOURPIAS: -- I'll just open one of these.

BERNSTEIN: You want me to go get you some ice?

KOURPIAS: No. (inaudible). There, that's good.

BERNSTEIN: Good.

KOURPIAS: So, yeah, that was the League, and I --

BERNSTEIN: So did you have vigorous debates about who to...?

KOURPIAS: Oh, yes, and reasons why.

BERNSTEIN: And did people come in and give testimony or make, make their case and --

KOURPIAS: No, we would get the request.

BERNSTEIN: -- or you would get the request in writing?

KOURPIAS: We'd get the request from the local or the business agent or whoever 01:25:00it was, and the political director would, uh, do the research. We had to look at the record, see how this person voted, uh, an idea as to what his chances were.

BERNSTEIN: Right.

KOURPIAS: I, I guess that was probably why we only gave George McGovern $500, because when you looked at South Dakota, (laughter) who would ever believe a Democrat would be elected? Uh, so, uh, you know, what was I saying? (laughter)

BERNSTEIN: Oh, the process.

KOURPIAS: Yeah.

BERNSTEIN: The research -- and the political director would do the research.

KOURPIAS: Yeah, research. He'd tell us --

BERNSTEIN: You'd look at their chances.

KOURPIAS: And we'd know, you know, is this congressional district mostly Democratic or Republican? Because we don't want to send money someplace that it's not going to be used effectively.

BERNSTEIN: Yep.

KOURPIAS: On the other hand, we use money to build people, too, that if they're a good prospect in the future, notwithstanding the fact they don't have a chance now, it's worth contributing to them to keep them in the spotlight.

BERNSTEIN: Right.

KOURPIAS: So. And we -- I'll tell you, in those days, uh -- they since have changed that system -- in those days, um, uh, there were, uh, uh, a lot of debate and a lot of time spent on it. Today, it's still got the three co-chairmen and the executive director, and they just send you the props around -- I guess that happened under my administration, the change -- and each of the members would just vote them. And then very seldom have a meeting.

BERNSTEIN: Ah.

KOURPIAS: And streamline things, like --

BERNSTEIN: Yeah, yeah.

KOURPIAS: -- like, uh, you do.

BERNSTEIN: And was there -- were there any Republican candidates who actually were pro-labor enough to earn --

KOURPIAS: Sure, sure. Jake Javits.

BERNSTEIN: Of course.

KOURPIAS: Senator Case from New Jersey. Uh, I'm trying to think.

BERNSTEIN: And was that --

KOURPIAS: Kea-- uh, Keaning from New York.

BERNSTEIN: And did -- did any -- was that a -- was that a, a debate, or it was clear?

KOURPIAS: Clear record.

BERNSTEIN: Clear record.

KOURPIAS: These were Republicans that voted for labor --

BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.

KOURPIAS: -- and working people. And we supported them. That's what's missing in the, in, in, in the political arena today. You don't have the moderates anyplace. You don't have people in the Republican Party. They're all right-wing, so that's what's missing in the Republican Party. And never be the same unless they start waking up and, and, uh, uh, electing some moderates.

BERNSTEIN: Some moderates. We know there are moderate voters out there. There are moderate Republican voters; where the moderate Republican leaders are is a different question, huh?

KOURPIAS: Yeah.

BERNSTEIN: Huh. So you worked, um, on the --

KOURPIAS: And I, I, I, I traveled for the League. I mean, I -- Don Ellinger become our director after Jack O'Brien, and then Bill Holayter. And when they couldn't -- you know, the calendar gets filled, they'd ask for me to, to make some appearances for them, and I would. And, um, I attended, uh, the COPE meetings in the AFL–CIO. Uh, was not too welcome by Al Barkan in those days, and, um --

BERNSTEIN: No?

KOURPIAS: And, uh -- well, we just -- the Machinists, uh, the, uh, uh, CWA and, uh, UAW were much were liberal than the other crafts, so there was always this, you know, difficulties around the table.

BERNSTEIN: Were there ever any real standoffs --

KOURPIAS: Well --

BERNSTEIN: -- that you were involved in?

KOURPIAS: -- the McGovern race. The McGovern race. And, uh, I'll never forget, my office was right next to the executive offices. It was the executive vice president and the general vice president and then the international president, and then my office. And after, uh --

BERNSTEIN: So --

KOURPIAS: -- after the -- McGovern is nominated in Miami, the following Monday I come into work, and I peeked in the reception room, and there was George Meany sitting like this with his cane, (laughter) waiting for President Smith to come in. And the purpose of him coming --

BERNSTEIN: Huh.

KOURPIAS: -- was he knew he couldn't get Red to not endorse McGovern, but he wanted Red to not vote to -- you know, just abstain.

BERNSTEIN: Ah.

KOURPIAS: So, you know, which for whatever reason Red thought of, he abstained. But we become then the force, UAW, CWA, the Machinists, two or three other of the large unions, for McGovern. I went to meetings. But one important point was after the executive council met and voted neutrality --

BERNSTEIN: The AFL–C --

KOURPIAS: Yeah.

BERNSTEIN: Yeah.

KOURPIAS: Voted neutrality, there was a COPE meeting. And all -- it was probably the most packed meeting I'd ever seen, because everybody was sending their forces there. Because the decision was how are we, now that the AFL–CIO is 01:31:00taking a non-pr-- no-commitment course --

BERNSTEIN: Right.

KOURPIAS: -- then what are we going to do in House and Senate races? Because Meany's big deal was that we're really going do the House and the Senate; forget about the presidency. And, uh, so the meeting was well packed. And Al Barkan -- did you know Al Barkan? Yeah.

BERNSTEIN: I mean, through my father, yeah, yes.

KOURPIAS: Yes. Al Barkan -- which he was a conservative.

BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.

KOURPIAS: Today he'd be a right-winger. (laughs) But anyway -- that's just my opinion. Um, uh, uh, Barkan opened up the meeting and set the guidelines down that, uh, we were not to discuss -- the executive council has already voted neutrality, and the reason for the meeting was to get mobilized for the House and Senate races. And one speaker after another jumped up and got back to the 01:32:00presidential race, including our Gene Glover. And I was sitting next to Gene, and since he was the secretary–treasurer, he was the spokesman for us. And he got up and wrote them a riot act. Then Barkan could tell that he was losing control of the meeting. All of a sudden the door in the back of the room opens up, and here comes George Meany, just like this. Silence.

BERNSTEIN: Really?

KOURPIAS: Until -- it took him -- it must have took him 30 seconds to get up to the front.

BERNSTEIN: To walk slowly and --

KOURPIAS: Slowly --

BERNSTEIN: -- ponderously.

KOURPIAS: Well, he was sending a message. To show you the power of the office and the power of him, that was the end of the meeting. He came, and Paul Hall -- you remember him?

BERNSTEIN: I do indeed.

KOURPIAS: He was the chairman of the Congressional Senatorial Campaign Committee.

BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.

KOURPIAS: And he was conducting the meeting with Barkan, and he was losing control. Showing you how powerful that office is. That was then. George didn't say a word.

BERNSTEIN: He just walked up to the -- slowly?

KOURPIAS: Just walked in, didn't say a word. The meeting after a bit was dis-- cut off. Everybody left. George left. Didn't say a word. So --

BERNSTEIN: That's one way to do it, huh?

KOURPIAS: And that, that's history. That's, uh -- Because, you know -- although, you know, when you look back, Meany got a few -- he got OSHA from Nixon, he got some health stuff from Nixon. And I'll never forget him coming into my office on Labor -- right before Labor Day during the first or second year of Nixon's presidency -- probably the first. "George, get ready." I said, "Uh, what's going on?" He says, "We're all going to the White 01:34:00House on Labor Day." I says, "Get out of here." He says, "No, we are." He said, "The council met, and Nixon has invited us to have a reception and ceremonies on Labor Day at the White House." I says, "Now, come on, you're just kidding." He said, "I'm not kidding." He says, "George, we got to go in. It's an invitation from the President." So they had these big bleachers around probably what they call the Rose Garden now, I don't know --

BERNSTEIN: Uh-huh.

KOURPIAS: -- where we sat. And each union was allowed to send, I don't know, maybe 10, 15 people, which we did, and then Nixon met with George Meany and Wimp and the council in the White House, and then they all came out and paraded to 01:35:00the front (laughter) of the stage. And the majority of us were wondering what the hell we were doing there. (laughs)

BERNSTEIN: Oh boy, that's really something. So after that meeting that Meany shut down, did people sort of go around in different channels to work --

KOURPIAS: Well, it was to me --

BERNSTEIN: -- to work together for McGovern?

KOURPIAS: Oh, sure. We formed the committee, the Labor Committee for McGovern.

BERNSTEIN: Right.

KOURPIAS: The rubber workers -- this is about seven or eight unions. Red Smith, our president, was co-chair, with Joe [Burn?].

BERNSTEIN: OK.

KOURPIAS: Remember Joe Burn was the CWA guy.

BERNSTEIN: Yes.

KOURPIAS: Was it Joe or was it [Watts?]?

BERNSTEIN: [Joe Burn?]?

KOURPIAS: I think, I think it was -- I think it was -- maybe Watts. No -- yeah, maybe Watts. Anyway, uh, it was UAW. We, we had a good force. And I'll tell 01:36:00you, Wimp went on the road, and I think he was gone -- I remember picking him up at the airport several times -- that he was gone for about five weeks. Constantly they went around. Pat Greet-- Greathouse from the UAW -- I don't know if you remember him.

BERNSTEIN: Mmm.

KOURPIAS: He was, uh, their, uh, vice president in charge of, uh, politics. He and Wimp had a team going around. I attended meetings in Washington. And I'll never forget, one meeting, Red Smith walked in. And Red was president, uh, chairman, of McGovern's committee for aerospace, because we were the biggest union in aerospace. Well, they come in one, one afternoon and he says, "George, I want you to go to this meeting, you see, over at the IUE." He says, "McGovern's people are going to make a presentation in reference to aerospace." I said, "OK," so I went, and we -- that was an honor. I got to sit where -- they had a huge table in there where all the A -- the CIO people sat before the merger.

BERNSTEIN: Ah.

KOURPIAS: Their council room. On 16th Street. They no longer have it, but it was 01:37:00a beautiful room. But anyway, [Joe Rawls?], remember him as an attorney, a liberal attorney?

BERNSTEIN: That name sounds familiar.

KOURPIAS: Yeah, his partner was there, and his partner was the -- working with this committee of ours, McGovern for Aerospace. And they start talking. And the, the meeting was made up in those days, I said, of, uh, a bunch of young kids that don't know what the hell they're thinking about because they were talking about cutting back on defense, uh, cutting back on aerospace here and aerospace there. So the meeting went on for about 15, 20 minutes, and they were going to do this, and they can convince the American public that we don't need -- I raise my hand. I says, "You know," I said, "the type of platform that 01:38:00you all are talking about that you want McGovern to talk about out on the stump, it's not -- " I said, "I'll tell you what's going to happen. You're going to lose California, you're going to lose Washington State, you're going to lose Georgia. You're going to lose all those states that got defense," and I said --

BERNSTEIN: That depend on that industry, yeah.

KOURPIAS: Depend in the industry. And I says, "I can't defend that position." And then they start talking. And the whole thing was they were young folks, they were enthusiastic --

BERNSTEIN: And these are McGovern's people.

KOURPIAS: McGovern people. And, and, and I loved them, you know. But they didn't -- when it comes to politics, you'd better look and see where the votes are at. And you want to do some of these things, announce them after you become president, not before. (laughter) So that -- it was quite a meeting then, and, uh --

BERNSTEIN: Did they listen?

KOURPIAS: Yeah, they, they -- when -- they went back to work with the attorney, 01:39:00Joe Rawls -- I'm trying to think of his partner -- he just died -- his name. But anyway, uh, uh, they come back with, with something, and I took it in to Red, and he looked it over very carefully, our research department did, and we passed on it. But they were -- it was going to be wild. I mean, they were going to -- our people could never, uh, agree to anything something like that. Yeah.

BERNSTEIN: Support any of their original proposals. Huh.

KOURPIAS: And McGovern had sort of a -- his name's sort of bad among the community that, uh, that were conservative or even social democrats, you know, in those days, that they wondered about him.

BERNSTEIN: Well, and so much of it had to do with the war.

KOURPIAS: Absolutely. And at that time, you know, that's why McGovern would -- that's why Meany would not support, uh, McGovern. Of course, he brought in the 01:40:00gays and all of that stuff, too, which, thank God it's different in today's world than it was then. Meany was a very, very powerful president. Very powerful. Because he knew how to control the international presidents. Uh, I, I -- Al Hayes was the, uh, ethics committee of the AFL–CIO that kicked out the Teamsters. When I was chairman of the AFL–CIO in Sioux City, I went to conduct the meeting one night and two guys were there from Chicago --

BERNSTEIN: Huh.

KOURPIAS: -- who told me they had been sent in by George Meany, that if we didn't kick the Teamsters and the bakery workers out of the Woodbury County Labor Council, that they were there to pick up the charter. And I said, "I want to tell you something." I said, "You can pick up the charter." And 01:41:00thank God, Jim [Hilsinger?], who was a Packinghouse worker, raised his hand and says, "George, we can't do that." And the Teamsters said to me, "George, we'd like to stay in the council, but we don't want to disrupt it." They were good. But, uh, he was -- he was -- and it was -- and the Bakers --

BERNSTEIN: That's, that's a serious level of enforcement.

KOURPIAS: Oh, yes. Meany -- well, in those days, they -- you know, Al Hayes recommended they be kicked out. The Teamsters looked at me and said, "It's your boss that got us kicked out." (laughs) But that was one of the things that Al Hayes did. We probably should have talked about that earlier. That was his -- he and Meany were very close, and he was so clean, I guess -- I don't know, whatever -- that, uh, that, uh, he just, you know, uh --

BERNSTEIN: So Meany appointed him to the ethics committee?

KOURPIAS: Which voted to kick the Teamsters out when Jimmy Hoffa was president.

BERNSTEIN: And then local councils would not have necessarily --

KOURPIAS: They could not --

BERNSTEIN: -- have followed that at all unless he sent --

KOURPIAS: No, under the charter, uh, once the AFL–CIO kicked them out, then all of the labor councils, the AFL–CIO labor councils, had to kick out the Teamsters --

BERNSTEIN: The Teamsters.

KOURPIAS: -- and the Bakers in their bodies. Oh yeah. They -- like I say, they sent two guys who said --

BERNSTEIN: Right. (laughs)

KOURPIAS: Ed Hayes was the -- [Hais?] or something was one. I'll never forget. He's crippled with arthritis. I don't know how I remember this stuff. (laughs)

BERNSTEIN: So Nixon comes in. You're in headquarters. Um, Wimpy's the general vice president. And how -- were they involved, and how did -- were they as surprised as you were that -- about this Labor Day confab?

KOURPIAS: Oh, Nixon's invitation?

BERNSTEIN: Yeah.

KOURPIAS: Yeah.

BERNSTEIN: How did that happen? Do you know anything about that?

KOURPIAS: Well, I'm sure it was a deal between Nixon and Meany. I'm sure that Nixon, uh --

BERNSTEIN: Yes, I'm sure it was.

KOURPIAS: See, they were very close, and, you know, what the hell? CIA, uh, ran the international affairs department of the AFL–CIO for years. You know, that's where the money came for stuff all over. Continued under, under Lane Kirkland.

BERNSTEIN: Yeah, yeah. And was that anything you were involved, that was part of your purview?

KOURPIAS: No. Not my responsibilities, no. Just, you know, just discussions that we would have.

BERNSTEIN: So when Smith becomes president, he's the same, uh -- that's the same person who had been mad at you.

KOURPIAS: No, no. Smith that was mad at me was the Grand Lodge Representative. Floyd Smith. Same name.

BERNSTEIN: Ah, oh.

KOURPIAS: That brings up something very --

BERNSTEIN: OK. I was so worried about that. (laughter) OK.

KOURPIAS: Oh, no.

BERNSTEIN: It's not the --

KOURPIAS: No relation.

BERNSTEIN: That makes much more sense. OK, got it.

KOURPIAS: And I'll never forget, never forget this. Red -- I get a telephone call from somebody about Floyd Smith, the GLR, the Grand Lodge Representative.

BERNSTEIN: Right.

KOURPIAS: And I'm saying on the phone, "That son of a bitch Floyd Smith!" and Floyd Smith came by the office. And he was, he was a huge guy.

BERNSTEIN: Really?

KOURPIAS: And he stopped. (laughter) And he came in. I hung up; he came in. He says, "I know who you were talking about, George." (laughter)

BERNSTEIN: Oh, good. OK. So what -- when he came in after Siemiller, what, what changed?

KOURPIAS: Uh, um --

BERNSTEIN: From your -- in the -- in your part of the organization?

KOURPIAS: First of all, he was, he was a good, good field operation man. I mean, he, he was a great vice president of the Great Lakes territory. Uh, organizing all of that. Uh, he -- first of all, right after he took office he become sick. He had emphysema, and he'd couldn't smoking -- I mean, he couldn't stop smoking, and it was really bad. And, uh, so therefore he couldn't travel as much as, uh, uh, as -- international -- Wimpy put us on the map simply because people want to see the International president.

BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.

KOURPIAS: They want to be able to touch him. I mean, it sounds -- maybe it sounds a little silly, but it's not. I mean, in all the years I traveled as 01:46:00International president, I never had one bad incident, incident with, with a member.

BERNSTEIN: Huh.

KOURPIAS: Because they respect you.

BERNSTEIN: Right.

KOURPIAS: And because Floyd -- Red couldn't get out as much as he should.

BERNSTEIN: Because of his health.

KOURPIAS: Yeah, he wasn't known. So he ended up with two real bad conventions.

BERNSTEIN: So he wasn't known either to the members or to the larger community?

KOURPIAS: Well, he probably was known in the Washington area as far as the, uh, AF of L–CIO's concerned, more so --

BERNSTEIN: Uh-huh.

KOURPIAS: -- because he stayed. He made -- he made those meetings. And he become a member of the Democratic National Committee, on the executive board, and, uh, uh, he, he, he was -- he was a good man. He, he, he was just -- because of his 01:47:00illness, he had some problems. And, uh, with, with Donny you can spore this a little bit more too -- Don worked for him directly.

BERNSTEIN: Right, right.

KOURPIAS: I did for, you know, eight years, and we had our ups and downs, but, uh, uh, uh, I liked him. I liked him very much. Because, again, his illness, it was tough for him to really build around the country. That was left to Wimpy.

BERNSTEIN: Well, he was GVP at the time, and so he did the field.

KOURPIAS: Yeah, so he had to do the running around or meet with the press.

BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.

KOURPIAS: Red didn't want to talk to the press.

BERNSTEIN: And why -- do you think that was personality or actual philosophy of how to run a union?

KOURPIAS: I've often thought about that, and I think a lot of it was that a little insecure, a little, enough to keep him away from the press.

BERNSTEIN: Mmm.

KOURPIAS: And it was easy for him to get a call, maybe from your father, and say to Margaret, his secretary, "Tell Wimp."

BERNSTEIN: Huh.

KOURPIAS: You mean -- no. Let him answer it. So, very seldom was he quoted. But again, I got to go back to as far as running a headquarters, as far -- when he was a vice president, as far as his administrative duties, they were excellent. He knew the union, he knew what had to be done out there, but he wasn't a people's person.

BERNSTEIN: Right. And he had somebody there who was ready --

KOURPIAS: Yeah, and he depends on Wimp.

BERNSTEIN: -- and able.

KOURPIAS: Which at times caused a little problem because, uh, he would envy the fact --

BERNSTEIN: That he got all the attention.

KOURPIAS: -- that Wimp got the attention in the papers.

BERNSTEIN: Yeah.

KOURPIAS: Well, the reason he did simply was because Red wasn't there to do that. And that would be the only place where I would fault him. I had a wonderful relationship with him. We argued at times, but, uh, he was, uh, he was a good man. And he did well. He did well on the Democratic Executive Committee. God, he hated to go, leave, so.

BERNSTEIN: He hated which?

KOURPIAS: To leave town.

BERNSTEIN: Oh.

KOURPIAS: Yeah. And I think a lot of that was his -- the fact that, uh, he just didn't -- I can remember picking him up at the airport one time, and grabbed his suitcase, and he looked at me, and he said, "Man, I just don't know how long I can take this." And, uh, he did well. He treated me well.

BERNSTEIN: Which is important.

KOURPIAS: Yeah.

BERNSTEIN: And then so Wimpy gets elected, and your -- does your position change? Does your job change?

KOURPIAS: Well, yeah. (laughs) More responsibilities. Wimp traveled a lot. Um, I handled, you know, a multitude of things for him.

BERNSTEIN: Actually, did you handle a lot of things for him when he was still general vice president?

KOURPIAS: Sure, sure.

BERNSTEIN: Yeah.

KOURPIAS: I did almost all his letters, referrals, all of that. And, uh, uh, boy, he could write. He was a high school dropout that was brilliant. But, uh, yeah, you know, whatever. He'd, he'd pop in. I remember one time he popped 01:51:00in and threw his speech at me, and he says, "I'm having Maria -- she's going to, uh, uh, change your airline tickets. You're speaking at a dinner tonight in Little Rock, Arkansas." I says, "You're kidding." And I called June up and said, "I'll see you tomorrow." (laughter) But, uh, he, he, he put our union on the map, and our members liked that, excepting there were times where some thought he paid more attention to the outside world than he did with them. (coughs) That, that wasn't -- (clears throat) excuse me -- that wasn't really the case. I -- he, he just did an outstanding job. And, uh, 01:52:00he could have used another 4 years.

BERNSTEIN: I'm sure. Was -- do you think there was a lot of tension in the union? I mean, they're -- it had to be a conservative faction of people who didn't think it was the role of the Machinists to be involved in every political --

KOURPIAS: Yeah, well --

BERNSTEIN: -- in every national political fight and --

KOURPIAS: There was -- there was --

BERNSTEIN: -- you know, putting yourself on the map is a two-edged sword, in a way.

KOURPIAS: There was some of that, but he was showing really respect. I remember one time that he made a statement in reference that we were spending too much money on defense. That was one of his big deals, and that -- that didn't 01:53:00necessarily mean more jobs, and especially more jobs in the future. Somewhat right. Uh, he made a statement someplace in reference to McDonnell Douglas --

BERNSTEIN: Mmm.

KOURPIAS: -- and something in the military end of it that they got a contract for. And he kind of -- he blasted that. And I remember him coming into my office and showing me the letter from the president directing business representatives from the district. Well, the district was a big district. It probably had eight, ten thousand people in it, in St. Louis. And told them, you know, very plainly, well, you're wrong, you're destroying our jobs, this type of thing. He picked up the phone, and he says, "When is your next meeting?"

BERNSTEIN: He called the person who'd written him the letter.

KOURPIAS: The director. And he says, Such and such date. "I will be there," and he went.

BERNSTEIN: Huh.

KOURPIAS: And he took a -- when he left that meeting, the delegates stood up and applauded him.

BERNSTEIN: And had he changed his position or he had --

KOURPIAS: No.

BERNSTEIN: -- convinced them?

KOURPIAS: Made the explanation as to --

BERNSTEIN: His --

KOURPIAS: -- what that statement was all about. And again, getting back to rebuilding America.

BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.

KOURPIAS: I mean, it's all there. I mean, things would be different today. I mean, what he said was happening. We didn't train anybody. You can't find in today's world someplace that's training somebody to do something in our field. We don't have an apprenticeship program any longer. We used to have the, the best apprenticeship program ever. That was all taken away from us.

BERNSTEIN: Why?

KOURPIAS: Federal funding. So a lot of the things Wimp said during those years, nobody listened to.

BERNSTEIN: Yeah, yeah.

KOURPIAS: Including the AF of L–CIO. And that's why he constantly hammered in that area, you know, about them changing the fact that we didn't need an 80-year-old man running the movement. Hell, I'm going to be 80 pretty soon. I couldn't run nothing.

BERNSTEIN: Yeah.

KOURPIAS: You know, it's -- a new face. More importantly, a new face. Show, show the world that we have somebody else. And that's what -- and we can get into this later -- my opposition to Lane Kirkland, and that's a big story, when we dethroned him.

BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.

KOURPIAS: And he and I ended up being close friends.

BERNSTEIN: After that?

KOURPIAS: After that.

BERNSTEIN: Really? No kidding.

KOURPIAS: Before and after.

BERNSTEIN: Huh. Well, let's --

KOURPIAS: You want me to get in that now? No.

BERNSTEIN: No, I want to keep --

KOURPIAS: No, yeah.

BERNSTEIN: I want to keep to my chrono --

KOURPIAS: I just may forget. (laughter)

BERNSTEIN: I'm going to ask you about Lane Kirkland later. So we're on this, uh -- we're still in the era of, um -- in the, in the 1970s and early '80s --

KOURPIAS: Yeah.

BERNSTEIN: -- before you become the general vice president, when you're still --

KOURPIAS: Yeah.

BERNSTEIN: -- working at headquarters, first with Smith and then with Wimpy. Are there other dramatic moments that we're missing here?

KOURPIAS: Well, there was one when, uh, um, uh -- and it was, uh, kind of a, a, a deal in which, uh, it shouldn't have happened, but it did. Um, Wimp and, and Red were having a little dispute about, uh -- the international executive board 01:57:00always had to approve if, um, a district increased its staff, business representatives.

BERNSTEIN: OK.

KOURPIAS: So Wimp comes into my office and says to me -- he was leaving for Japan that evening. And he said, uh, "Now," he says, "put this prop out over my signature," and that is to give his district in Cleveland an additional business agent and to give another district, which I now forget the name of, in another district, an additional one. But he said, "In the prop, you say that both have to be approved or none are approved." Red's out of the office, so I do the prop. It goes out to the council. And people send, 01:58:00approved it. The council approved it. And, uh -- I'm trying to think. Yeah, they approved it. And, um, one morning Red calls me; he's got a couple staff people in there. Had George [Plume?] was one. And I said, "Al, I thought we were going to have a BS session." And he looked at me and he says, "Who told you to put this prop out?" I said, "Oh, Jesus." I said, uh, "You know, Red, I wouldn't do it unless Wimp told me to do it. "Damn it," he said, "that ain't the way it's supposed to be." He really read me down. So I said, "OK, you done?" and I walked out of the room. About, oh, half an hour 01:59:00later, he come in, a different man. He says, "Going to lunch?" Because we used to go to lunch a lot. And he was always there, so we really went to lunch a lot. (laughter) So I said, "Sure." Well, a couple days later, on his way back from Japan, Wimps called, and he said, "How's the prop go?" So I told him the story. "OK," he said, "I'll be in in the morning." Geez, he come in, and he walked into Red's office, and then they really had it out. And it just shows that sometime you get your signals mixed. And, uh, it also showed a little bit about the fact that, uh, Red -- and again, I, I, I refer to Red's illness, uh, the tension between the two of them, uh, uh, because a little 02:00:00jealousy on Red's part. Wimp's a younger man, and he's well.

BERNSTEIN: And he's --

KOURPIAS: Yeah.

BERNSTEIN: -- getting a lot of things...

KOURPIAS: Yeah. Again, you know, I don't know if it's something I -- I should be talking there, but it's something that happened, and it's --

BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.

KOURPIAS: -- uh, they're both good men. But that -- you know, that's one of many.

BERNSTEIN: So should you have asked Smith before you wrote that proposition?

KOURPIAS: You know, I can't --

BERNSTEIN: Right? I mean, Wimp is the vice president --

KOURPIAS: Yeah. Well --

BERNSTEIN: -- and I'm --

KOURPIAS: I'm working -- I, I -- you know, you --

BERNSTEIN: It's an interesting power dynamic, I guess.

KOURPIAS: -- raise a point. You raise -- you raise a good point. And maybe what I should have done, thinking now, is have gone in to Red and said "This is 02:01:00what Wimpy wanted done." But I got a direct order from Wimp. Uh, had I told Red and Red said no, then I guess I would have got it from Wimp. (laughs) I don't know. You're probably right. You know, thinking back now. But yeah, sure.

BERNSTEIN: Well, you know, it really makes me wonder how much power Wimp had at the -- I mean, it seems like that's a time of --

KOURPIAS: Well, Wimp had the power, because, because he knew that Red in the long run was a teddy bear. And I say that with affection. I mean, like I said, he'd chew me out and he'd be in my office 15 minutes later like nothing had 02:02:00happened. And it happened in this instance. "Let's go to lunch."

BERNSTEIN: Which is a great working relationship.

KOURPIAS: Yeah. And, uh, so, you know, there was tension between them. But, uh, Red was all right.

BERNSTEIN: So, the next phase is Wimp getting elected to be president.

KOURPIAS: Yeah.

BERNSTEIN: You want to save that for --

KOURPIAS: Which, uh,

BERNSTEIN: -- after lunch, or you want to -- ?

KOURPIAS: What time is it?

BERNSTEIN: It's, uh -- I think it's 11:30.

KOURPIAS: What do you want to do? We -- what time -- lunch is noon?

BERNSTEIN: It's noon, yeah. Got a little more time.

KOURPIAS: All right. Where are we at? (laughter) Are we -- am I taking too long here?

BERNSTEIN: Not at all. I think we're good.

KOURPIAS: OK.

BERNSTEIN: Um, you're still in headquarters, and there's going to be a trans-- a new president.

KOURPIAS: Yeah. Uh, I think just about everybody knew that that was Wimp's spot. I mean, it was known. But let me go back, because I think it gives a better clarification about Wimp that -- how he got on the council as a vice president in the first place.

BERNSTEIN: OK.

KOURPIAS: Uh, there was a lot of talk about who was going to, um, succeed an 02:04:00opening that we had. And the talk was either Paul Burnsky or Wimp. Paul Burnsky was very close to Roy Siemiller. Siemiller brought him to Washington. He worked for Siemiller in the Chicago office. So most people would be betting on Paul.

BERNSTEIN: OK.

KOURPIAS: Paul was a friend.

BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.

KOURPIAS: Wimp and I, you know, Wimp would keep me posted on what was happening. And riding into work that day he says, "Well, today's the day." And I'll say this, that had it not happened, he would have been just as happy and waited for another, another time. But what happened was that Matt DeMore, who comes from Cleveland, was secretary–treasurer.

BERNSTEIN: Ah, OK.

KOURPIAS: And for what reason, he and Wimp didn't get along too well. And it'll go back to later on in our discussion about Phil Zannella and the whole 02:05:00Cleveland type of thing. So Matt DeMore goes into C. Miller's office that very mor-- morning of the day that the executive council was to meet. And he says to, um, to C. Miller, "I got a deal." He said, "I'll go for your guy," meaning Paul Burnsky --

BERNSTEIN: Uh-huh.

KOURPIAS: -- "if you'll commit Wimpy gets the next spot." And C. Miller looked at him and said, "No way. I got the votes." Walked out. Council meeting starts, it's put up, and Wimp wins. (laughter) That day, about three o'clock in the afternoon, I happen to come out of my office, and the drinking 02:06:00fountain was right there. I could see everybody that took a drink during the day. And Wimp -- I was taking a drink out of the fountain, and Wimp comes out of the executive council room and he winks at me. He said, "It happened." About -- I didn't say nothing. About four o'clock Paul comes into my office, and he says, "Let's go have a drink." And there was another guy from the airlines that was with us. And he says, "Well, George" -- and Paul, by the way, at 92 is still alive.

BERNSTEIN: No kidding?

KOURPIAS: I see him every once in a while. He's good.

BERNSTEIN: Huh.

KOURPIAS: He says, "Your guy got it." And, "Well, Paul, you know, it wasn't my guy, it was my guy, but what are you going to say?" He said, "Nothing." He said, "I'll talk to him tomorrow." He went into Wimp's 02:07:00office, or maybe Wimp went to his office, and they embraced.

BERNSTEIN: And they worked together.

KOURPIAS: Yeah. But had Siemiller said --

BERNSTEIN: Yes, I'll --

KOURPIAS: -- to DeMore, "You got a deal," DeMore would have voted for Paul, for Paul.

BERNSTEIN: And that would have been enough?

KOURPIAS: That would have tipped the -- yeah, I think so.

BERNSTEIN: Yeah, yeah.

KOURPIAS: It was, it was pretty divided. And that would have been it. So, that story's important, just how Wimp -- because you never know in our union. I mean, DeMore could have said, "OK, Wimp gets the next spot." But the next spot might be four or eight years away.

BERNSTEIN: Right, right.

KOURPIAS: And it could be completely different. So it was important for Wimp to get that spot at that time.

BERNSTEIN: That's amazing. Huh. So the civil rights movement is going on during this period. Did that -- ?

KOURPIAS: Uh, Wimp and myself were of course very, very liberal. Um, the union? Sort of divided. We didn't participate on the International level on the March on Washington where Martin Luther King gave his speech. It was sort of like the George Meany line. I mean, in my opinion, Meany should have been -- and we thought that, Wimp thought that -- should have been making one of the speeches at that, not Walter Reuther.

BERNSTEIN: Right.

KOURPIAS: So even within our own ranks -- You know, I went down to speak to a local lodge either in Alabama or Mississippi where we had shipbuilders, and they had two meetings.

BERNSTEIN: A black and a white?

KOURPIAS: That's right.

BERNSTEIN: No kidding.

KOURPIAS: So it's -- it took us a while. Now, the, the example I give you there was probably towards the end of it, because the International started in the late '50s and early '60s to work with those lodges in the South that still continued to discriminate. But --

BERNSTEIN: So most southern lodges would have two separate --

KOURPIAS: Some of them, some of them, and, you know --

BERNSTEIN: -- locals, basically?

KOURPIAS: Locals, some of them.

BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm. Hmm.

KOURPIAS: Uh, blacks were scared of the whites, most of them, especially in industrial plants with fearing losing their jobs and stuff. But --

BERNSTEIN: So International, like Grand Lodge reps?

KOURPIAS: Well, I -- the way -- you know --

BERNSTEIN: How would it work, do you think, that the International would influence them?

KOURPIAS: By having a, a, a strong, good representative going down there and getting the people together and talking sense.

BERNSTEIN: What did you do when you arrived and there were two separate meetings?

KOURPIAS: I was stunned. You know, and I can't right now remember exactly what transpired.

BERNSTEIN: Huh.

KOURPIAS: I -- you know, I -- I know that there were -- they had two meetings that day, and one was black and one was white, as I could see it. And that was either Mississippi or Alabama. But we started cleaning it up. But discrimination doesn't go away tomorrow. I mean, I mean, you talk to somebody; it isn't going to change their mind for tomorrow. It --

BERNSTEIN: It's a process.

KOURPIAS: -- it takes a process. It takes a long time. And we had in our constitution that you should only propose to the membership a white person up until the late '40s.

BERNSTEIN: A white person for membership?

KOURPIAS: For membership. They broke it. There were lodges around the country that of course had black people.

BERNSTEIN: Right.

KOURPIAS: But it was in the constitution. It wasn't taken out of the constitution I believe probably maybe 1948 --

BERNSTEIN: Huh.

KOURPIAS: -- and debated on the floor of the convention.

BERNSTEIN: So you have this history to work against.

KOURPIAS: Yeah, and it takes generations. My father -- just a short story -- uh, we had grocery store -- did I ever -- did I tell you this, about the grocery -- I did yesterday --

BERNSTEIN: Mmm.

KOURPIAS: -- about the grocery store when this black woman was in there buying groceries?

BERNSTEIN: No. You must have told somebody else here.

KOURPIAS: OK.

BERNSTEIN: That's the trouble; we got too many stories going on here.

KOURPIAS: Yeah. Uh, my dad was in one of the small grocery stores. This black woman, [Owens?] was her last name, come in, she bought some groceries. And [Lawrence Gentile?] -- I'll never forget that name -- uh, was the owner. And the, the black lady paid, walked out the door, and Lawrence looked at my dad, said, "That nigger." My dad said --coming from the packinghouse -- said, 02:13:00"Lawrence, you'll never see me in here again."

BERNSTEIN: Mmm.

KOURPIAS: And we never went into that grocery store again.

BERNSTEIN: Really?

KOURPIAS: But it was there. And I was a teenager. Probably young-- a little younger than a teenager. So --

BERNSTEIN: How do you think he came by his commitment?

KOURPIAS: My dad?

BERNSTEIN: To equality. Because that's --

KOURPIAS: Hardship.

BERNSTEIN: -- a fairly strong --

KOURPIAS: Hardship.

BERNSTEIN: -- stand.

KOURPIAS: Hardship. He suffered a lot. Hardship. And then seeing, you know, working next to somebody eight hours a day, ten hours a day, living next to them. In our backyard was, was a black family. And they -- my, my dad would send me over to Daniel's is -- was their name. The one boy become an all-state football player. But anyway, they lived in the back; they had a nice, big porch. And I remember myself being sent back there to take a nap with the, with the ki -- with the Daniel kids.

BERNSTEIN: Hmm.

KOURPIAS: So there was no discrimination in that area. There wasn't. And I didn't know how to discriminate. But when I went to junior school and high school, which was in a separate part of town, then I could see it. Then I could see it. Because a lot of the black kids just roamed together. So I think hardship and being poor and the fact that they are -- they suffer like you do.

BERNSTEIN: Right. It's pretty straightforward. The other thing that's going on in that period is women are starting to, uh --

KOURPIAS: Well, my first taste was, you know, two thirds of the women in my plant -- two thirds of the people in my plant were women.

BERNSTEIN: In your first strike, yep?

KOURPIAS: Yeah. So well, you know, I knew the -- I guess because I --

BERNSTEIN: Did they have any issues with being discriminated against as women at that plant by the company?

KOURPIAS: Sure, sure.

BERNSTEIN: Or that's not something that was part of your -- ?

KOURPIAS: There would be some. There would be some. I would hear the, you know, "Dammit, uh, he discriminated against me," the foreman. No such thing as a, as a woman foreman in the plant. All men. We -- you know, we (laughs) -- big macho men over women on an assembly line.

BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.

KOURPIAS: Uh, I, uh, uh -- we, we carried a lot of grievances. Maybe the -- you know, we would, uh -- piecework, you know, and time study guy. I, I become a time study guy for a period of time before the union. And then the contract, we --

BERNSTEIN: Hmm.

KOURPIAS: -- had the right to, under a dis-- a disagreement, to -- I'd check out and go to that machine and time the person for our side of the story.

BERNSTEIN: Got it, yeah.

KOURPIAS: But, uh, I would say that there was probably, uh, a lot, as I look back, a lot of bad stuff happening to women in those plants. The grabbing, the way they talked. And, you know, it's a terrible thing, but to look back into the shop in those days, it was a terrible thing that was happening. But nobody -- I mean, nobody said, "Well, you shouldn't say that to her" or "Keep your damn hands off of her."

BERNSTEIN: Right.

KOURPIAS: And the thing is that when a woman protested, we'd go into the front office, and the company wouldn't side with her anyway. So, you know, it was -- women had it tough. They had it tough. It, uh -- but I guess maybe that's one of the reasons that I had a good reputation in the plant, was the way I treated them and carried their grievances.

BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.

KOURPIAS: And, uh, I would sit down and visit with them. They had a terrible situation once when this woman, she was a winder of big armatures. Sweat a lot. They're terrible (inaudible).

BERNSTEIN: Huh.

KOURPIAS: And, um, not only that, she -- her daughter and I were friends. So they come to me, the women, and said, "You got to do something about it." And in those days, you know, we didn't have health and safety and all of that stuff that you have today.

BERNSTEIN: Right.

KOURPIAS: And her name was Vivian. And I went back to her a couple times, and it was pretty bad.

BERNSTEIN: It was a dangerous --

KOURPIAS: Yeah.

BERNSTEIN: -- an accident waiting to happen situation.

KOURPIAS: So I got with her off the property and I says, "Let's just have a nice conversation. This is what's happening. The people around you love you, but they can't stand being by you." She told me she could-- she didn't un -- she didn't really realize that she had that smell (inaudible).

BERNSTEIN: Huh.

KOURPIAS: It was corrected. I forget now how it was corrected. But I sat her down.

BERNSTEIN: Huh.

KOURPIAS: And God, I can remember her writing me letters and -- But the foreman probably would have just handled it completely different, embarrassed her and, uh --

BERNSTEIN: Right.

KOURPIAS: Yeah, but yeah. They just -- women were -- women didn't have it that well. And I'm sure it's changed in today's workplace, at least I hope.

BERNSTEIN: Well, there's a -- there's more of an awareness that we need to watch out for problems.

KOURPIAS: Yeah. And it -- you know, and --

BERNSTEIN: And it's so interesting what, you know, people will accept without speaking up when it's accepted by everyone --

KOURPIAS: Yeah.

BERNSTEIN: -- in the plant.

KOURPIAS: Well, when you have -- when it gets to the place where you got everybody around you hating you --

BERNSTEIN: Mmm.

KOURPIAS: -- as was this situation, it was just bad, you know. And when that was cleared up, she just become one of them.

BERNSTEIN: Yes?

KOURPIAS: So. But, you know, and the work, they expected women to work just as hard as men. And lifting. I can remember big shafts like this, women picking them up. I could hardly pick them up, because I was a skinny little thing anyway. (laughter) But that was, you know, this was a turning point. It was years later, though. You know, we're talking about the late '50s and early 02:20:00'60s. It was still a little bit more time before women had, uh --

BERNSTEIN: Right.

KOURPIAS: -- uh, some form of being not discriminated against, you know. And I, you know, our -- and I think within our union that health and safety became a very important issue. We set up a -- under Wimpy set up a health and safety department, and, uh, Charlie Bradford headed it up for a number of years, and Mike, uh -- jeez, I forget his last name -- heads it up now. And, uh, that was a great help to women in the factories.

BERNSTEIN: The health and safety --

KOURPIAS: Yeah.

BERNSTEIN: -- part of the IAM.

KOURPIAS: Sure. Yeah, and we do well on that. Something to be proud of. They hold classes here.

BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm. Yeah, oh, there's a huge program. It's very impressive. I 02:21:00think we should take a break.

KOURPIAS: OK.

BERNSTEIN: And we'll start back after lunch with you --

KOURPIAS: Yeah.

BERNSTEIN: -- becoming general vice president. Yes?

KOURPIAS: Are we -- is it within your time schedule?

BERNSTEIN: So we are -- we're back.

KOURPIAS: OK.

BERNSTEIN: And, um, I think we kind of left off when you're in headquarters, and it's going to be 1977, and Winpisinger is going to take over as president.

KOURPIAS: Yes.

BERNSTEIN: So --

KOURPIAS: He, um -- to start that off, he said to me, um, "Get a hold -- give a memorandum to the staff that, uh, we'll have a meeting at twelve o'clock midnight in the council room of all the directors to start -- " And so I went around and made sure, I said, "Everybody be prepared to come to, to work at 02:22:00midnight on the first."

BERNSTEIN: That's when the term starts, is midnight on the first of January?

KOURPIAS: Yes. And they just looked at me, laughed, said, "What is this, a joke? Are we all going to get drunk?" And he -- I said, "All I can tell you -- I would be there at twelve o'clock." And they were. And he started off the meeting, and he said, "This union is changing." And he said, "If you have to make a decision, you make it, and if it's one that goes left or right, always take the left." And, you know, that type of thing. It was a good meeting, lasted about 45 minutes, about what he foresaw as, uh, the future, that 02:23:00we had a lot of work to do, that there would be a lot of changes. And, and there were. So we got -- started off his term on a very, very, uh, encouraging note. It was really great.

BERNSTEIN: People were OK with coming in on New Year's, uh -- ?

KOURPIAS: Well, after they found out it was not a joke and they found out that there was a purpose for that, that the union was changing.

BERNSTEIN: It's a, it's a dramatic way to make an announcement, right?

KOURPIAS: Absolutely, and it worked well. And he went to work, looking around, and he hired additional people. He, uh --

BERNSTEIN: Now when he said, "If you need to make a decision, make it," did he mean, I expect more autonomy from -- ?

KOURPIAS: Well, if you, if you -- don't be, first of all, scared to make a decision, and when you do, try to make sure it's on the left, meaning the left wing. (laughter) And, uh, if, if there is an error in a decision that you make, 02:24:00it always can be changed. Don't be scared to make a decision.

BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.

KOURPIAS: So that, that was a good feeling, that, you know, these department heads had the opportunity to make decisions, uh, without having to continually run to him. So it was a good start, and, uh, it was a flying start, and, uh, it was a new era. It was different. The membership had to understand there was a difference.

BERNSTEIN: So what are some of the first things you did to help, uh, make that happen, make that a reality --

KOURPIAS: Well --

BERNSTEIN: -- make the new era?

KOURPIAS: It, uh, uh -- I, um, I would -- you know, being his exec-- executive assistant, and about -- at that time, we had the titles, uh, made a difference. 02:25:00Working closely with all the departments. Uh, uh, they could come to me if they couldn't get hold of Wimp, because Wimp was going to be spending an awful lot of time out. And there were decisions to make, and we made them in accordance with what he told us. So it was an exciting start. And, um, and, like I said, the -- we did a lot of press conferences and went into communities and, uh, and brought into the union different coalitions. Uh --

BERNSTEIN: You mean brought the union to different coalitions --

KOURPIAS: Coalitions, yeah.

BERNSTEIN: -- of larger --

KOURPIAS: Yeah.

BERNSTEIN: -- in part of the larger labor movement.

KOURPIAS: Yeah, that's what I mean, yeah.

BERNSTEIN: What -- in particular what coalitions were you --?

KOURPIAS: Well, as we discussed, the whole energy situation was, uh, uh --

BERNSTEIN: What was at the top of the agenda when he first came in, when you first --

KOURPIAS: I think that the top of the agenda was to begin to change the way we are, that, uh, things would be -- you know, we -- we were always known prior to that time as sort of a conservative union. And that was the beginning of, uh, becoming a very liberal union by the time he left office. Three terms and, uh, and, uh, uh, there was a difference. It was a different union when he left. And, you know, and, uh, everybody did their thing and, uh, did it well, and, uh, he did a lot of traveling. Uh, he knew that he had to be out there, and he was out there, both for coalitions and for our own membership. Um, we probably became -- 02:27:00in ways become more political. We were political before, but, uh, probably more, more so. Uh, on the international level, we became very, very, uh, active in the International Metal Workers, in which he was a, an officer. And, um, uh, he went to conferences over the world, and... And they seen, our friends overseas, seen a difference in the union.

BERNSTEIN: And they probably appreciated it.

KOURPIAS: Oh, yes. He was very popular internationally.

BERNSTEIN: And is the question, how much of the home base appreciated it?

KOURPIAS: Uh, at the beginning, wondering --

BERNSTEIN: There was a long history of those --

KOURPIAS: -- wondering, yeah.

BERNSTEIN: -- solid conservative -- fairly conservative --

KOURPIAS: Uh, uh, probably at the beginning, spec -- you know, worried a little 02:28:00bit, wondering where this would lead us. But as the months went on, uh, and he traveled all over, and very blunt with the membership, uh, he brought them across. They were there. And, you know, a good example of what he did in St. Louis. And, uh, uh, as far as companies and negotiations were concerned, he just took them on. But in those days there was work, so you could take them on.

BERNSTEIN: So it was possible to --

KOURPIAS: Yeah.

BERNSTEIN: -- take a stand.

KOURPIAS: Yeah, yeah.

BERNSTEIN: Yeah, absolutely. Hmm.

KOURPIAS: And, of course, he spoke out on all different types of issues, sometimes differing with the AF of L–CIO. Uh, we, uh, uh, decided to, uh, that this -- have -- open up doors to Russia to the communistic end of the world. And he went Russia. And in those days, it was more or less, uh, the thing to do was 02:29:00if you're going to make foreign travel, and especially to a socialist or, co—communi -- communist government, that you call George Meany up, or Lane Kirkland, and say, "Listen, do you have any objections" --

BERNSTEIN: Really?

KOURPIAS: -- "to me traveling to Russia?" He called up, uh, um, I think the first time was with Meany, and just said, "I just want you to know I'm going to be traveling overseas and I'm going to stop in in Moscow." And it wasn't asking permission --

BERNSTEIN: He -- right.

KOURPIAS: -- it was telling him, this is what I'm going to do. So we made a trip to -- uh, I didn't go on the first trip to Russia. He did, opened up some doors. Uh, came back. Uh, of course, had a press conference, and, uh, talked 02:30:00about the fact that notwithstanding they were communistic, that workers had to talk to each other, and it was important that we keep our door open. And, uh, then, uh, China. And I went with him on the trip to China, and we toured China and met with the so-called labor unions there. And, you know, the same thing. Our door is opened. Uh, we, uh, intended to sponsor, uh, both some Russians and some, uh, Chinese so-called labor leaders, uh, uh, to come to America, and which we did. And then on the, the third time overseas, uh, in the communistic end of it, uh, we went back to Russia, and I went with him there. And, uh, did all -- people thought that Wimpy -- yeah, he's probably a communist too. But that 02:31:00wasn't the case. He did not believe in their system of government. He did not believe that that was the way for workers to go. But he believed that the door would be opened, and the only way that we could change them was to make sure that we had the opportunity to communicate.

BERNSTEIN: OK -- mm-hmm.

KOURPIAS: But I'll never forget. We stayed in Russia about -- close to two weeks. And, you know, they had assigned, uh, secret police to be with us at all times. You know, you'd turn around, they're right, right there watching you, you know. And, uh, uh, the night before, uh, we had a large dinner and sat around, and the president of the labor movement in, in Russia got up and thanked Wimp and the delegation for being there, and how they opened up -- they were opening up the doors, and went and got up and gave a toast, which was very 02:32:00impressive, and it would warm your heart, that workers all over the world are the same and we've got to be able to get along with each other, notwithstanding what the form of government is. We disagree, but we still have to keep that door open. But I -- as we got on the plane that day, and we were over on the first-class section, and you could see the door. And when the door slammed shut, he turned around to me and said, "Thank God we're going home." (laughter) Which, you know, you say to yourself, "Well, if this guy was a communist, he wouldn't want to get home so fast." But he did. An important trip that we made at the beginning of his term was to tour the Scandinavian countries and Germany. And the purpose of that, he always had in mind, notwithstanding the fact that he was, um, um, uh, that he was a high 02:33:00school dropout, that he deeply, deeply believed in education, and he thought that one thing Americans did not have, the American labor unions, outside of the UAW and a little bit of it at the Steelworkers was a union facility to train and to educate our members. And the purpose of the trip to the Scandinavian countries -- and we went to all of them, and then to Germany -- was to look at their educational, uh, uh, places. And we went and visited each of them and spent a day or two there, which we went over what they teach and how they do it and who comes to the schools. And when we left there, he turned around to me and he says, "George, we are going to have an educational center." So we got back, and about, uh, maybe three or four months later, he's -- you know, he 02:34:00put out the word we're looking for someplace where we can build an educational center. And, uh, Ed Garvey, who was then the, uh, executive assistant to the Football Players Association.

BERNSTEIN: OK.

KOURPIAS: They were in our building, and Wimp gave them really birth. I mean, they paid no rent, they didn't have any money, and we --

BERNSTEIN: Really?

KOURPIAS: Yeah, we -- we're the ones that really started that union, supported it.

BERNSTEIN: Huh.

KOURPIAS: The only labor organization at the beginning. Uh, so Ed Garvey comes running into my office one day. He knew Wimp was looking for an educational deal. He was looking for a place where they could, uh, uh, send some of the children football players to camp.

BERNSTEIN: Hmm.

KOURPIAS: So he comes running into my office. He says, "I found the place. I found the place." And I says, "Where's that?" And he said, "Well," he said, "Placid Harbor." I says, "Well, where the hell is Placid 02:35:00Harbor?" So he told me. And I said -- he said, "Boy," he said, "and just think, we can share it." You know, he says, "We'll do half and half." Well, he didn't have a penny to do half and half. (laughter) So he leaves, and when I had a chance to get in to Wimp, I said to him, "Garvey, Garvey found a place, and I think you probably should look at it. It's owned by the, uh, uh --

BERNSTEIN: Food and Commercial.

KOURPIAS: -- Food and Commercial Workers Union, and, uh, they had made a, uh -- they had brought a director on the property, and he wasn't really paying attention to the school, and there were parties and stuff like that. And [Houseworth?], I think was his name, or whatever, was president then in those years.

BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.

KOURPIAS: And, uh, in fact, he died on the property here. He got sick and spent his last days here. Wanted to get rid of the property. So Wimp and Gene Glover, 02:36:00our secretary–treasurer, come down here. And Wimp took one look, and he says, "That's the spot."

BERNSTEIN: Really?

KOURPIAS: Yeah. "That's the spot." And, uh, called up, uh, Food and Commercial and, uh, said, "We'd like to sit down. Your property's for sale and want to discuss it with you and see if we could get a deal," and they made the deal. And it was probably the happiest time of his life. Um, he really understood the need for workers to be trained as negotiators and, uh, uh, editors and whatever so we could compete. Um.

BERNSTEIN: So was he involved in the early planning?

KOURPIAS: Of the building?

BERNSTEIN: Of the --

KOURPIAS: Yeah. Gene --

BERNSTEIN: Or the curriculum. I guess the curriculum and the building --

KOURPIAS: Oh, the curriculum. Yeah. Well --

BERNSTEIN: -- were planned at the same time is, is what Don was telling me.

KOURPIAS: -- there was a -- yeah, you know, the -- yeah, there was a, uh, man, 02:37:00and I can't remember his name now, who Bob Kalaski, who was our, uh -- Bob was our communications director. Uh, he had done some work for us about how we can, uh, uh, get the TV stations, the networks, to pay more attention on the good side of labor than only publicizing the strikes and stuff. And had done a good job there, and Bob became acquainted with him, and he told him about the educational center here that we were going to have. So Wimp hired him for a period of a month or so in which he set up the subjects and the, the layout, and, uh, they sat down and discussed who would come to the first school and that. And right soon thereafter, Don Wharton was, uh --

BERNSTEIN: Was brought on. Yeah.

KOURPIAS: -- was brought on to be the, uh, education director, uh, of the Harbor Era. And, uh, uh, so, you know, we went to work, and, uh, it was a lot of hard 02:38:00work, and the architect had to come down, and --

BERNSTEIN: Were, were you involved in it?

KOURPIAS: At times.

BERNSTEIN: Yeah?

KOURPIAS: At times, you know. We -- yeah, Wimp and I would talk, but, uh, uh -- not that I was on top of it. It was his baby, and he pretty well stayed on top of it.

BERNSTEIN: Really?

KOURPIAS: But he had Bob Kalaski helping, and, uh, uh, and, uh, Charlie Crown, who was then, uh, head of our education department. And poor Jo-- poor Charlie was threatened by this, because he, he was doing, uh -- what are they -- we used to call them, uh, at the different universities, we used to -- labor short courses.

BERNSTEIN: Ah, right.

KOURPIAS: At the different u-- Wisconsin and all over the country. And he -- I remember him coming in one day and saying, "What's going to happen to us?" I said, "What do you mean 'us'?" You know, I said, "You're going to be folded into the program at the, at the, at the Harbor." Um, Gene Glover handled the building, the first part, the old part, and, uh, and I think Don 02:39:00Wharton -- no, it was after Don had, uh, become, uh, a vice president, or an exec-- my executive assistant. Yeah, OK. Uh, but, um, uh, it took about -- we brought -- he was so in a hurry to get it started that we couldn't house our students, and the first class we brought in was the, the executive assistants of all the vice presidents and their top aides, department heads at headquarters. And they stayed at a hotel in, uh --

BERNSTEIN: Down the road? Yeah.

KOURPIAS: Down the road here. I forget the name of the city. Lexington.

BERNSTEIN: Lexington.

KOURPIAS: Yeah. And I stayed there, too. And, uh, and the training began.

BERNSTEIN: Did you come to the first class?

KOURPIAS: Sure, sure, sure.

BERNSTEIN: OK.

KOURPIAS: And, uh, uh, then they started erecting the building, the old part, and, uh, dedicated it, and then we founded out we needed a second part. So -- But this was, of course, uh, his jewel. He, uh, believed so deeply in it. And we held --

BERNSTEIN: How much of it was really based on what you saw in Scandinavia? Because that was a trip you were on.

KOURPIAS: Yeah. A lot of it.

BERNSTEIN: Yeah.

KOURPIAS: Uh, uh, a lot of it, excepting in those so-called socialist countries. But they're, you know, democracy probably better than ours. Uh, they got the companies to pay for it in a lot of cases, and they would continue to keep the employees on the payroll, and the stewards and stuff would go to the educational center for training. Uh, a lot of it. We, we met with the teachers, we met with the, uh, people who run, run that particular school. Uh, talk to the students, 02:41:00which Wimp just loved, to sit around a table and have discussions and compare them. And that also did another thing.

BERNSTEIN: Mmm.

KOURPIAS: By making that trip, then the, the top leadership of the Scandinavian count-- count-- countries and Germany started coming to the United States. We opened up a door. They, they were interested. So, uh -- and, uh, you know, we're the third school. The UAW's now gone because they sold that property when they got in a jam a couple years ago --

BERNSTEIN: Right.

KOURPIAS: -- so I don't think they're having classes out there that I know of. And the, the Steelworkers were the same way. They were never big time, but they did have their educational center someplace outside of Pittsburgh, I think, in which, uh, I think -- I don't know --

BERNSTEIN: I don't know that much about that.

KOURPIAS: I don't know whether it's still in operation or not. But this is the only one that still is. So, you know, this was his jewel. He just, um, uh, 02:42:00he just -- he thought so much of it. And then of course he opened up the door to like-minded organizations to meet here. A lot of times -- Wimp was soft -- a lot of times with no payment or anything. And we had several Democratic functions out here. I remember Tom Harkin having a, a group of people here one, one weekend or something. Uh, and the Energy Coalition met here. So we -- this place is -- right now, once a year, the Alliance of Retired Americans comes out here and meets for three or four days --

BERNSTEIN: Huh.

KOURPIAS: -- with its staff and stuff. So it goes beyond just our own people. It's a -- it opened the door for other like-minded organizations that probably don't have the financing to come and --

BERNSTEIN: Right.

KOURPIAS: -- and be here. We're very generous, or have been. I'm sure they still are. But, uh, that, that, that was a very important part. The second deal 02:43:00that Wimp did that was really at the beginning criticized: um, uh, he knew that if he was -- he first of all said to me one day, "I don't want to die sitting in airports." And with his amount of travel, that was the case.

BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.

KOURPIAS: So he said, "I'm looking for a jet." I said, "Christ. The membership will kill you, Wimp." He says, "Well, we got to do it." So he got George Robinson, who was head of our community services department, who come out of the airline industry, and he got George to start looking around at the fixed base operators where most of the small jets go into. And, uh, we leased 02:44:00one for about three or four months while they -- we ordered a plane. And it was the time in which his first convention was approaching. So there were two big issues on the table. We -- not everybody was convinced Placid Harbor was a thing, either.

BERNSTEIN: Right.

KOURPIAS: Uh, and we like --

BERNSTEIN: I can imagine that.

KOURPIAS: -- all organizations have money people who are very conservative. So facing that convention, uh, he had two big -- we had to have a, um, a per capita tax increase, we wanted to do more for the strike fund, and then these two things came up. And he knew that they were going to be very, uh, intense, uh, 02:45:00uh, meetings because the sentiment was growing out there about, what are we doing with a plane? Why -- you're asking us to pay more so you can have a plane, and you're -- the word went out that the Harbor was going to be used for the executive council to bring their girlfriends there, which was -- started going around the country. So several of us got together with Wimp and started drawing up plans with the convention. And we all said to him -- and he would have done it anyway -- "You hit it head on. You got the reasons," --

BERNSTEIN: Right.

KOURPIAS: -- "and you're -- people listen to you, and you know how to put it forward, so let's go with it." So he made two videos, one of the property here and one with the jet being built by IAM members. So right before we took up 02:46:00-- uh, uh, let's see, how did we do that? I think we took up the strike fund first, and won that. And then we did something on per capita tax, I believe. No, that, that year we didn't, no. It was done four years before that. So anyway, we were ready for the two big shows. And Wimp would not tell -- I knew -- when we were going to bring it -- when we wanted the law committee to report to the convention on those two projects. One morning -- and I worked with the law committee.

BERNSTEIN: Got it. OK.

KOURPIAS: One morning he said to me, "Tell the law committee to be prepared. Today's the day." We -- the, the -- over two thou-- 2,200 delegates assembled. He opens up the convention, plays around with a few things. All the sudden he shoots the video: delegates are looking at this plane (laughter) shooting over with IAM on it, you know. The aerospace people went crazy.

BERNSTEIN: I bet. (laughter)

KOURPIAS: But the debate began.

BERNSTEIN: Yeah.

KOURPIAS: And, uh, from some it was pretty harsh for a while, and, uh, I can't remember -- I don't think it went to a roll call, no. And we won it. So we got the plane.

BERNSTEIN: Were most of the objections economic?

KOURPIAS: Yeah. Well, that, that's what you would base it on, even if, uh --

BERNSTEIN: Even if it was other.

KOURPIAS: -- it was something else, you know. The next thing was he shoots the -- he's rolling, so in the morning he's doing the airplane; in the afternoon he comes back with the video on, uh -- and he loved the afternoon, because if there was going to be a roll call vote, the delegates must stay in the hall.

BERNSTEIN: Ah.

KOURPIAS: And a roll call takes five to six hours. So he shoots it at two o'clock. Same thing. This big video screen, educational center, parts of it built, parts of it not, statements from students that were there, that had been there, and that passed.

BERNSTEIN: No roll call needed there.

KOURPIAS: No roll call. No roll call. And they -- the opposition didn't have the guts to get up, "Well, Wimpy, what are you going to do, bring your girlfriends to the Harbor?" That was all underneath, you know, throughout the convention hall.

BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.

KOURPIAS: But he, he had the ability to get the type of respect that it was tough, tough to, uh, to, to, to, uh, uh, argue with him. It was really tough. And, uh, uh, so, we got that big thing. I mean, those -- you know, those were important. He used that damn plane -- because I was on it most of the time with him -- he used that damn plane to really work the United States and Canada. And, I mean, one day, on Labor Day, we started in Miami. We went to Des Moines, Iowa; on to Oakland and San-- and, and, and San Francisco, and did rallies in which he spoke at all three. And that's -- next time the convention -- nobody ever questioned the airplane.

BERNSTEIN: Really?

KOURPIAS: Never questioned the airplane.

BERNSTEIN: Mmm, I sss -- .

KOURPIAS: And it was used for that. So I sometimes -- you know, when I -- you hear these stories on corporate America has these planes, and they love -- the press loves to show them?

BERNSTEIN: Right.

KOURPIAS: There's two things.

BERNSTEIN: And they're extremely expensive; there's no question about it.

KOURPIAS: Yeah, it is expensive. And you, you've got to -- what, what value do you get out of it --

BERNSTEIN: That's exactly it.

KOURPIAS: -- towards the money that it's costing you.

BERNSTEIN: Yep.

KOURPIAS: And the value of the plane was to be able to contact our membership and be there. One thing about unionists, they want to see their leader. They want to see their leader. They want to talk to him. If they need to blow at him, they want to do it. And, you know, and he got around. And they start -- the next convention, yeah, there's some rumblings, you know, We're spending a lot of money on the airplane, but not once could they ever prove that that airplane was used for anything but --

BERNSTEIN: Real union business, yeah.

KOURPIAS: -- the business. So that went over, and of course this place here, our membership, I think they'd sell headquarters before they'd, (laughter) uh, get rid of this. So those were --

BERNSTEIN: That's --

KOURPIAS: -- big, big items that, uh, that, uh, Wimpy took on. And, uh, uh, thank God he did.

BERNSTEIN: Very impressive. So you worked with him until 1989?

KOURPIAS: Yeah, then he retired.

BERNSTEIN: Then he retires. And how -- are you the obvious next choice that whole time?

KOURPIAS: Well, there were, uh, uh, uh -- there were three of us vying for the 02:52:00presidency. Um, I had told Wimp when he made me a general vice president -- I say he made me; he convinced the council to appoint me -- when he called me in and said, uh, "You're going to be the next vice president" -- our dear friend Sal Ioccio had -- I don't know if you knew him. It's been years.

BERNSTEIN: Uh-huh.

KOURPIAS: Greek man, but he come from New York City.

BERNSTEIN: Ah.

KOURPIAS: He said, uh, "You're going to take Sal's place," which I knew, and, um, I told him at that time, I said, "I want to tell you, Wimp. I really have no interest in, um, becoming an International president." Uh, he said, "Well, you shouldn't -- you shouldn't commit yourself to something that you may have to break." I said, "Well, that's how I feel now." Um, so I, 02:53:00uh, uh -- give it a -- are we at that point where I become president, right? Yeah. Uh, I had given it, uh --

BERNSTEIN: Well, no, right now you're talking about becoming vice president.

KOURPIAS: Vice president, OK.

BERNSTEIN: Which is six years earlier, right?

KOURPIAS: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

BERNSTEIN: So that's the -- that's a --

KOURPIAS: Yeah. When I -- that's right, I was taking Sal --

BERNSTEIN: I mean, you're thinking ahead. When that happens, you're thinking ahead.

KOURPIAS: Yeah.

BERNSTEIN: But still.

KOURPIAS: Uh --

BERNSTEIN: We're (inaudible).

KOURPIAS: -- so at that time I did tell him I wasn't interested in becoming international president. So, uh, he had the votes for me to become a general sec -- general vice president, and, um, and, uh, the vote was taken in Miami during the AFL–CIO convention that year down there. And, uh, I, uh, got ready to start looking -- In fact, June and I had -- I knew I was going to get the nod, and I started looking at newspapers and stuff about living in New York City. 02:54:00(laughter) Our kids -- the, the girls were gone; we just had John. And, um, and I've always loved New York City. But, um, up to the point, the day that I officially was made the general vice president, uh, about -- after the meeting, and he called me in, you know, swore me in, and after the meeting, Wimp calls me and he says, "Come to my suite." So I went there. And he said, uh, "You're staying at headquarters." And I said, "What are you going to do?" He says, "I'm moving Poulin to, uh" --

BERNSTEIN: To New York?

KOURPIAS: -- "to New York." And he said, "That's a better fit." And I said, "Well, did you talk to George?" Said, "Yeah." So he talked to George. I says, "Well" -- under our constitution, International president is 02:55:00the one that makes the determination of what assignment the general vice presidents get. I said, "Fine." It wasn't that I was disappointed; that way I wouldn't have to move and I'd be at headquarters. So that's, that's, uh, how I got on and why I stayed in Washington as, uh, uh, uh, the general vice president at headquarters. And, uh --

BERNSTEIN: So how did things change? I mean, you're still in headquarters working with him after you become GVP. What --

KOURPIAS: Well, then you're -- yeah. But then, you know, you give a lot of your responsibilities that you had before to, uh, your -- the next one, which is -- was Don Wharton --

BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.

KOURPIAS: -- become, uh, our executive assistant. And, uh, uh, and then I, I did more of, uh, the running around the country and, uh, several times I served on special trial committees, and involved politically. And, uh, along, you know, 02:56:00uh, worked closely or Don worked closely with me, to, uh, as chief of -- I was chief of staff, so, of, um, uh, working with the department heads and that type of thing. So it was a mixture of things.

BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm. Can you tell me about one special trial committee that was particularly -- as an example? What --

KOURPIAS: We had -- yeah, let me think. We had a, uh --

BERNSTEIN: I mean, because in a way that's what keeps the organization working, is the ability to deal with the most difficult issues --

KOURPIAS: Yeah.

BERNSTEIN: -- and still be a coher -- a whole, you know?

KOURPIAS: We had a situation in Tom Ducy's territory in Chicago. It was the 02:57:00automotive lodge, big. Seven-oh-two. And they had an awful lot of internal problems, and several times directives were sent to them, whatever kind they were, and they refused to accept the directives. And, uh, uh, a very anti–Grand Lodge atmosphere was beginning to develop, so a Grand Lodge Representative filed charges against him. And Wimp appointed me and two other general vice presidents to, uh -- it was Tom Ducy's territory, so it was [Purcell?] and [Will Spencer?] -- to, uh, conduct the trial. And these people had gone out, and they got outside counsel, which under our law, we don't 02:58:00permit in our -- the defendants and plaintiffs do their case.

BERNSTEIN: Hmm.

KOURPIAS: And, um, the trial lasted, uh, um --

BERNSTEIN: So wait, it wasn't permitted, but they did it anyway. Did they bring them in?

KOURPIAS: No.

BERNSTEIN: No, they just got --

KOURPIAS: They tried to bring them in.

BERNSTEIN: They got help writing and preparing?

KOURPIAS: Yeah. We, we -- yeah. Well, they try to get into the, uh, into the trial too. But, uh, I ruled that under our law it wasn't permissible. You had to be a member.

BERNSTEIN: Ah.

KOURPIAS: And by the way, at another trial, they went out and got a member. (laughter) I mean, they got a, an attorney --

BERNSTEIN: They found a lawyer who was a --

KOURPIAS: -- that they gave membership to --

BERNSTEIN: That they gave membership to on the spot so that they could get around that?

KOURPIAS: -- so that he could come in. Yeah. So, you know, and the trial lasted, uh, four or five days, and, uh, we heard testimony and stuff, and, uh, uh, went back and together with the other two, uh, vice presidents, we, uh, rendered a 02:59:00decision, and things started changing. We took the local under jurisdiction, uh, uh, and, uh, sent in a Grand Lodge Representative to do the administrative work of the local until we got everything straightened out.

BERNSTEIN: What happened to the people who brought the suit? The local -- I guess it was the local --

KOURPIAS: They were not expelled, but they I think were fined, and they were --

BERNSTEIN: And they lost their offices.

KOURPIAS: They lost their offices for five years. We can't do more than five years. So --

BERNSTEIN: And their followers felt that the trial had been fair, and -- ?

KOURPIAS: Well, probably not, but if you have good people to go in and do the administrative work, uh, uh, of the local, and treat the members -- they finally come around. We finally ended up with good people running the local, and they were left on their own. But I do understand, I think, that (laughs) they had some problems last year or something. But, uh --

BERNSTEIN: This same local?

KOURPIAS: Yeah.

BERNSTEIN: Huh.

KOURPIAS: But those things happen, uh, politics within the local. Our responsibility to see that the members are serviced properly, and that's the only big responsibility, and that's what we've got to make sure. So when bickering begins in a local, we've got to make sure that it doesn't get to a point where we're not servicing our members, not conducting negotiations, and that kind of thing. So, but -- and, you know, that's good. It was, uh, interesting and somewhat, uh, uh, uh, somewhat, uh, felt good to be a judge (laughter) and rule people out of order. So. But, uh, and you know, then when I become, uh, general vice president, I did more of, uh, uh, the handling of 03:01:00politics and worked closely with the, um, um, uh, director, political director, very closely.

BERNSTEIN: So was there a particular campaign that you were -- ?

KOURPIAS: That... Well, we, we, we worked them all. I mean, uh, uh, Holayter did the directing and, uh, confirmed with me, and, you know, we did the money thing and all of that stuff. And if there were rallies held, and if Wimpy couldn't make them, then I would go.

BERNSTEIN: You would give speeches?

KOURPIAS: Yeah. Stump speeches, you know --

BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.

KOURPIAS: -- going out to work for a politician and stuff like that. I went up to Massachusetts in -- where -- when, when this idiot that's running for president now, uh --

BERNSTEIN: Romney?

KOURPIAS: Uh, yeah. Run against Kennedy.

BERNSTEIN: Oh.

KOURPIAS: And, uh, what's his wife's name, Jackie? No. Ted Kennedy's wife.

BERNSTEIN: Um --

KOURPIAS: Appeared with her at several labor rallies in Boston, which he never forgot. He was a big man, Ted Kennedy.

BERNSTEIN: Yeah.

KOURPIAS: A great guy. I'll never forget, um, that, uh, Senator -- uh, yeah, former senator from Iowa who's now an attorney, knows me, and -- See what happens when you're ready to turn 80? And, um, uh, I'll think of his name in a minute. He was having a fundraiser for Teddy at his house in Washington, and I -- you know, and Teddy would not take PAC money, so if I -- I had to pay out of my own pocket. So, you know, he kept calling me and calling me. So I said, "OK, I'll be there." So I put out $500. And I was the only labor person 03:03:00there, and I don't know if that's why he did it or what.

BERNSTEIN: Huh.

KOURPIAS: But I'm standing among, you know, lawyers and people like that, and they're waiting for Ted to come. Finally it went around, said, "He's coming, he's coming." And I was ten rows back. And here comes Ted, the door opens, and they welcome him. And he spotted me. And there was a trade bill on the floor that day. And he pushed people aside to get to me, to whisper in my ear. I said, "Man, I feel good among these people." (laughter) So it was worth the $500.

BERNSTEIN: That he had, had -- had he done something good with the trade bill?

KOURPIAS: Yeah, he was, he was -- I'll tell you what. He -- the Senate vote 03:04:00didn't count anyway, but he voted against on, uh, on trade. Uh, I said to him once, "You know, why in the hell -- you're, you're 100% with us on everything." Or another thing he wasn't, and that was deregulation. But I, I, I said, "What -- why won't you be with us on trade?" His response was, "George, I want you to know that the President" -- he always referred to his brother as the President -- "the President also favored this."

BERNSTEIN: Hmm.

KOURPIAS: So, you know, it, uh -- But we had a good relationship.

BERNSTEIN: That's not a good reason, but -- (laughter)

KOURPIAS: Yeah. Well, I guess if you're a Kennedy, it's a reason.

BERNSTEIN: It's a reason, yeah. That's interesting, huh. So did you keep track of the legislative day-to-day?

KOURPIAS: Yeah, they, they --

BERNSTEIN: That was -- was that part of your -- ?

KOURPIAS: On a day-to-day basis, both politically and legislative-wise, they report to me. Yeah. And then when we thought Wimpy should be brought about, we would. And that's one of the reasons of having a resident vice president is to --

BERNSTEIN: Is to keep --

KOURPIAS: -- help clear the docket for him, and, uh --

BERNSTEIN: Right.

KOURPIAS: -- only, you know, give him the decisions that he has to make and nobody else. So sometimes I was wrong, but we corrected him over a little glass of whiskey, and that took care of it.

BERNSTEIN: And was there a big strike that you were involved in when you were a vice president in those years?

KOURPIAS: Yes, yeah. The beginning of one that I finally inherited when I become president.

BERNSTEIN: Mmm.

KOURPIAS: Eastern Airlines, which you so well know.

BERNSTEIN: I --

KOURPIAS: It as in your family.

BERNSTEIN: Yep.

KOURPIAS: Um, that strike should not have been, I think. I say "I think" because it would be different -- John Peterpaul, who was then the vice president in charge of transportation would differ. Wimp and Boreman, the astronaut, who ended up with Eastern --

BERNSTEIN: Right.

KOURPIAS: -- developed a pretty good relationship. One thing that Wimpy did was he loved to get together with corporate heads, sit around the table, and talk.

BERNSTEIN: Did he -- did he use the phrase "industrial democracy"? Which is from Scandinavia, I think.

KOURPIAS: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.

BERNSTEIN: And talk about how cooperation can actually --

KOURPIAS: Be good.

BERNSTEIN: Be good for everybody.

KOURPIAS: That's right. And not fighting each other all the time.

BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.

KOURPIAS: The end result is you're going to get more than before. But when profit gets involved, it's a different thing. I mean, these people, the big money people. But Boreman and Wimpy got very, very good friends, become very good friends. In fact, we had our Indy car, which was another thing, and Boreman came on two or three occasions, Memorial Day, when they have the race in, uh, in Indianapolis, the Indy 500. And, uh, Boreman said to him one day, he says, "What" -- he says, "Once a month I have some of the top businesspeople in Miami and Florida come to my house, and we have a little barbecue and have a couple of drinks and talk. You know, would you come?" And he went. Wimp never hid anything. I mean, he said it the way he believed it.

BERNSTEIN: Right.

KOURPIAS: And I guess they had quite a night. They had quite a night. Wimp come into the office the next day, and he said, "Man, did I have a time telling them last night," you know. So he and Boreman -- when Charlie Brad -- uh, uh, uh, Charlie Bryan, who's the president of the district, when, uh, uh, uh -- now, he and John of course were responsible with the negotiations.

BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.

KOURPIAS: And on several occasions, Wimp told Charlie, and John, I guess, that we should attempt to negotiate, uh, with Boreman, if you need any help with me or whatever, because you certainly don't want Lorenzo around. Well, I don't 03:09:00know what happened, but one night, uh, the strike begun. And that was as Wimp was leaving office and I was ready to take over. But let me say this. I think maybe Wimp was around for another, another six months or something right in there. Strike began under him. And, um --

BERNSTEIN: And it was still going on when you came in.

KOURPIAS: Yeah, when I become president, it was still going on. But during that period of time, I spent time down walking the picket lines in Kansas City and St. Louis and, uh, in Miami -- big rallies in Miami -- uh, because I knew, or had a feeling, that if it was -- if I was to be the president, that I'd like (laughter) to get this damn thing settled with stuff, you know, but that was not 03:10:00to be. And so, uh, they struck an eventual deal.

BERNSTEIN: So how come he didn't have more influence?

KOURPIAS: Wimp?

BERNSTEIN: Yeah.

KOURPIAS: Um --

BERNSTEIN: I mean, he, he was --

KOURPIAS: -- I think the thing -- yeah, yeah.

BERNSTEIN: -- right, right, on the level of --

KOURPIAS: One thing -- yeah.

BERNSTEIN: -- you had to negotiate with Boreman. There was some way in which that was true. What happened?

KOURPIAS: But Wimp had a -- Wimp had a deep belief that he was the International president, and of course he'd follow the constitution. But he would not -- he would try not to interfere in collective bargaining in any negotiations --

BERNSTEIN: Hmm.

KOURPIAS: -- when vice presidents were assigned to them. And good or bad, uh, 03:11:00that's probably what happened in this case, that, uh, he told them what he thought; they didn't turn out that way. So he was -- it was like a last resort for him to pick up the phone and tell a colleague of his that you're wrong. The way people have entrusted you, then we got to live with that. And the members can take care of that later. So I think that was one, uh, that I don't know. Uh, I don't want to disappoint -- I think about that at times, but, um, uh. Charlie Bryan, who was a president of the district, was really loved by the 03:12:00people around there. Uh, so Wimp told him what he thought was going to happen, which did happen. They made the decision. Uh, do you want me to tell you about the end of the strike?

BERNSTEIN: Yes.

KOURPIAS: So I take over, and, you know, there are 10,000 people, and they're getting strike funds, 125, I think, or 120, whatever it was in those days, a week. We had about, I don't know, 20 or 30 million dollars in the treasury. Um, the strike kept going on. And during the strike at Eastern, Boeing struck. 03:13:00So here I was with two large strikes -- Boeing, 50,000 on strike. I called -- I -- was it -- I'm trying to figure who was down here. Maybe it was Jerry Thompson. I said, "Get a real estate company and find out what that property is worth."

BERNSTEIN: Really?

KOURPIAS: Because I was not going to stop strike benefits. My God, you don't leave our people out in the cold. He went out and got a price, and I says, "Well," and I told, Ducy was the secretary–treasurer, I said, "We got to 03:14:00be prepared. The strike fund's going down. We're paying 60,000 people a week." So I had Eastern --

BERNSTEIN: That's a huge number.

KOURPIAS: -- and I was out picketing on the lines in Seattle, in, uh, uh, in, uh, Wichita. I delivered strike checks to them three or four occasions, held rallies at Boeing. At times I felt like, what in the hell happened to me? (laughter) You know, we were meeting in St. Louis, the executive council, and there was a feeling among some of the executive council members that it was time to terminate the strike, which the executive council has the legal right under 03:15:00our constitution to do so. We were meeting in St. Louis. The meeting lasted a long time into the day. And I finally got it secured, the right to continue with the payment of strike benefits at Eastern. And was told by several members, which I shall not mention, that, you better get it over with because we can't continue on this way.

BERNSTEIN: And Boeing is still out also?

KOURPIAS: Boeing is still out. So we're leaving St. Louis, we're on the plane heading for Washington. I land, said, "Phyllis, get in the car." Cell phone rings, and it's Tom Buffenbarger. He said, "You hear the news?" I 03:16:00said, "What's that?" "Eastern declared bankruptcy. It's all over with." So I got back, and it was probably the worst night of my life to know, under our constitution, once there is legal separation, that we have to cease paying benefits. There was nothing I could do.

BERNSTEIN: What do you mean, legal separation? I don't understand.

KOURPIAS: Well, OK. A -- this corporation filed bankruptcy.

BERNSTEIN: Right.

KOURPIAS: Therefore it was no longer in existence. OK? So I had the right, and the executive council, was to cut off benefits. You understand?

BERNSTEIN: You mean because the employees were fired, basically --

KOURPIAS: Yeah, they're gone.

BERNSTEIN: -- by virtue of the bankruptcy.

KOURPIAS: The bankruptcy --

BERNSTEIN: And so if they're fired, then you're benefits are no longer -- ?

KOURPIAS: We can't give them. They're not employees.

BERNSTEIN: And there's no way around that?

KOURPIAS: I don't think so. But we, we did it. We had to do it. Along with a letter to all 10,000. It was tough. We got letters. I -- you know, you learn lessons, and you just -- I was just hoping and praying that -- what happened was -- see, and I'm trying to think it out. The bankruptcy occurred -- the bankruptcy court assigned an administrator who was running the company.

BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.

KOURPIAS: OK? I met with him in Chicago at the Drake Hotel, trying to iron out an agreement so we can get our people back to work and get the airline running. And we just couldn't. And then he declared to the bankruptcy court that there's no agreement --

BERNSTEIN: Oh, so --

KOURPIAS: -- we want to file papers to do away and dissolve the company. So that's the way it went. And, uh, so we were --

BERNSTEIN: And why was it -- why -- he wasn't trying to make an agreement work, or you just --

KOURPIAS: Well, we thought --

BERNSTEIN: What, what -- tell me more.

KOURPIAS: We were trying to see if we could work an agreement with him.

BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.

KOURPIAS: But he filed -- when -- he was under bankruptcy. He was appointed by the bankruptcy judge, and he had to report back whether there's going to be an opportunity for this company to exist in the future.

BERNSTEIN: Right.

KOURPIAS: And the answer was no, so that means they fired everybody, and that was it. So it's complicated. But I was assured by our attorneys that, uh, uh, that I had to cut out benefits to our members, which we did.

BERNSTEIN: After that, um, uh, the, the bankruptcy-appointed supervisor had said it's not possible for the union and --

KOURPIAS: Yeah, yeah, yeah, he said it's all over with.

BERNSTEIN: -- the company to ever come to an agreement?

KOURPIAS: Yeah. The bankruptcy court took over, sold the airplanes, and all of that. But we still had Boeing. And then we, after six weeks, uh, we got a agreement there. And we've always ended up with good agreements for Boeing, it's just that they were a company that wanted always to show us... And when the strike was over with, I telephoned a guy by the name of [Schwartz?], 03:20:00something like that -- forget after all these years. He was the CEO, and the two of us had lunch together. And I said, "You know, Boeing's big, we're big. There's no reason why there ought to be a strike every time you turn around. And we ought to put, uh, things in place to work together during the agreement until the expiration." And typically he, like management does when you pull something like that, Oh, yeah, we'll get together, and all that. But 03:21:00unfortunately, three years, no, uh, no effort was really made. We met with the company on occasions. Uh, another strike. And, uh, so our people went out on strike for about three weeks, and, uh -- so I'm, you know, out there running back and forth, finally got that one taken care of. So in my eight years I struck Boeing twice, had Eastern airlines, among other strikes around the country. But Boeing, I hope they change now. I see that we've come to an agreement with them over the whole NLRB issue and --

BERNSTEIN: Yeah, it's --

KOURPIAS: -- uh, uh, uh, the additional orders that they have that are being made by our members. Uh, I wish once and for all that company would understand 03:22:00that we're going to be around forever and they're probably going to be around forever, and we ought to be able to get along.

BERNSTEIN: Could benefit both, right?

KOURPIAS: Yeah. And I think that Tommy Buffenbarger's doing a good job of creating that type of an atmosphere with employers. He's tough, but he's good. So those years, uh, were, you know, outside of the strikes, uh --

BERNSTEIN: So can we go back to when you first get elected?

KOURPIAS: Sure.

BERNSTEIN: As, uh -- I'd like to know more about the -- when you first come on, you know, as president.

KOURPIAS: Yeah.

BERNSTEIN: You come on in the middle of the Eastern strike, so I guess that's pretty much --

KOURPIAS: Pretty much on my mind, of course. There's other things too. You can't --

BERNSTEIN: Other things on your mind.

KOURPIAS: You can't do that.

BERNSTEIN: Did people think you were going to do something different?

KOURPIAS: Than Wimp?

BERNSTEIN: Yeah.

KOURPIAS: Well, (laughter) I wasn't going to do much different than Wimp. I 03:23:00mean, after all --

BERNSTEIN: I mean, you've been working with him forever.

KOURPIAS: -- I was part of him for a long time, and, uh, I wasn't going to, uh, build another house someplace.

BERNSTEIN: Right.

KOURPIAS: Uh, I continued, um, uh, really setting records of traveling. I mean, you know, you live in that plane. And Tommy's broke my records.

BERNSTEIN: Really?

KOURPIAS: Yeah. Yeah, he's done well. But, um, I had a great feeling when I was with members. Um, I was a hugger. I'm a Greek. We hug and we kiss, whether they're males or females. I don't know if you seen the other day, (laughter) [Donny Vistrova?] give me a kiss. (laughter) I said, "I taught you well." But, uh --

BERNSTEIN: That's good.

KOURPIAS: -- I always felt that, uh -- I always felt good among our members. And I think that kind of swung over. I don't want to brag or anything, but I really did have a good relationship with our officers and our, and our members. I, uh -- I was possibly, um, uh, not as involved with coalitions as Wimp was. Uh, the coalitions were there. We were represented. But soon as I took the oath of office, our economy began to change. And I think -- I don't have the exact figures, but I think that we possibly had 650,000 members when Wimp left and I 03:25:00took over. And trade start hurting us. Our manufacturing plants were being moved overseas, down to Mexico. Terrible fight. I was close to Bill Clinton. I thought he was a great pres-- president, but he failed us on trade. He failed us on trade. And the day that NAFTA passed --

BERNSTEIN: That's true.

KOURPIAS: -- I got home, got in the house about 11:30, and the telephone rang. Picked it up. I was madder than hell. Greek emotions get me. And it was one of 03:26:00Clinton's staff people, [Joe Berlinskus?]. Used to work the AFL–CIO, went to work for Clinton. "George, how you doing?" I said, "Joe, you've got a lot of goddamn guts calling me up and asking me that." So we chatted for a minute. "Let me ask you something." I said, "What's that?" He said, "The president is going to Seattle to meet with Boeing and some of its employees tomorrow. If you were asked, would you go with the president?" I said, "Joe, tell the president not to ask." I said, "If you think for one minute after NAFTA passes and what Clinton did for NAFTA that I'm going to get 03:27:00off that plane with Clinton -- " So we had that dispute, and he knew how we all felt. But those are days where we had access to the White House. I mean, yeah, we, we got screwed around on trade, devastated, but we got things, too. We had a good labor department --

BERNSTEIN: Right.

KOURPIAS: -- We had places to go to. Better administrators of OSHA. You know, the -- one thing about it, when Clinton, uh, ran for office, Barbara Shailor come in my office one day and she says, "Um, I want to tell you something about" -- she's one of these people connected with the network, you know, where all these people know each other and they get on the phone, and now 03:28:00they're getting to do this thing, and --

BERNSTEIN: Uh-huh.

KOURPIAS: "You probably never met Bill Clinton, but he'd like to meet with you." I said, "Oh," so she tells me about him. Our Machinist Non-Partisan Political League meets once a year --

BERNSTEIN: OK.

KOURPIAS: -- and we get together with our top political people across the country, 150, 200 of them. And this was held at -- that day was -- that week was at Court, Washington Court, Capitol Hill. And, um, uh, Tom Harkin was coming from Iowa. He and I had been friends since the day he ran for Congress so many years ago. And Tom decided to run in case -- in fact, uh, I lent him the plane and, uh, uh, he went up to New Hampshire, and, you know.

BERNSTEIN: Huh.

KOURPIAS: And we had not endorsed up to that point. But our leadership knew where I was (laughter) treading. So we met at the Capitol Court, and, uh, I had done my homework and convinced a lot of people that we ought to endorse Harkin. But I also had a commitment to meet with Clinton that morning.

BERNSTEIN: Who you'd never met before.

KOURPIAS: Never met.

BERNSTEIN: Yeah.

KOURPIAS: Yeah, I had -- Teddy Kennedy called me once and he said, "George," he said, "I want to get Clinton in here for a meeting at the White House on, uh, education. Please will you let him -- loan the plane to him to come." That's the closest. I never talked to the guy. He rode in my -- our plane, and 03:30:00that was it. So -- have you met him?

BERNSTEIN: No.

KOURPIAS: I mean, he's one of these people that engulfs you, you know.

BERNSTEIN: Yeah, I, I've heard.

KOURPIAS: You're just -- you're like nobody in the room but you. But anyway, he, uh, he come in. [Ed House?], who was my resident vice president, Ed, uh, I think somebody will interview him. He wasn't feeling well, but they'll do it by phone or whatever.

BERNSTEIN: I think he's on the -- yes, that's right.

KOURPIAS: Yeah.

BERNSTEIN: We have a plan for that, yeah.

KOURPIAS: Uh, he knew Bill, uh, Clinton for years. Come from Arkansas. So I said, I said, "Ed, I want you to be part of this meeting. I don't know this guy." So he comes up, and we sit, and he starts to tell me how -- what he -- you know, he's going to win this thing. And we start talking about issues, more trade, which he would not then commit, uh, either way. He wanted to study 03:31:00it; it wasn't for him on top of the list, and he went into education and trade schools and --

BERNSTEIN: Huh.

KOURPIAS: We talked for about 45 minutes. Got up to leave, looked me in the eye with those eyes. Says, "George, I know what you guys are going to do today, but I also want to tell you this: I'm going to get elected. I'm going to get the nomination, I'm going to be elected president, (interviewer laughs) and you will sit at the table." I looked at him. I says, "Man, I better call Harkin up and..." (laughter) So that began our relationship, because when -- of course when, when, uh --

BERNSTEIN: Well, did you go on and endorse Harkin later on?

KOURPIAS: Oh, yes.

BERNSTEIN: Yeah. OK.

KOURPIAS: That was a commitment. We had the delegates, uh, talked into it, and, uh -- Some of them didn't like it, but, uh --

BERNSTEIN: Right.

KOURPIAS: But there wasn't -- there were other people in the race, as I recall, and it wasn't a groundswell for Clinton among our people. I think the California bunch had a candidate and others, and I was able to convince them, uh, uh, uh, that our political director that Harkin is the way to go, not because -- you know, there's nobody in the United States Congress that has a better record than Tom -- uh, than Tom Harkin when it comes to labor. So, uh, we endorsed Clinton, he came to our -- no, the convention was in Montreal. We did it by -- we did it by, uh, uh, movie.

BERNSTEIN: You mean you endorsed --

KOURPIAS: Clinton.

BERNSTEIN: Clinton after he was nominated, yeah.

KOURPIAS: Yeah, after he was nominated. Well, we endorsed him before. When Tom Harkin got out of the race --

BERNSTEIN: Then you immediately went to Clinton.

KOURPIAS: Yeah. We put out a ballot quickly to our people --

BERNSTEIN: OK.

KOURPIAS: -- and a lot of them said, "Thank God. We should have done it in the first place." But, um, uh, he was in office. It had to be March. And I was at 03:33:00the -- he had just become president. And I was at the, uh, winter meetings, the AFL–CIO.

BERNSTEIN: Miami?

KOURPIAS: Miami. I got a call from the White House saying that, uh, Clinton was going to meet with the CEOs of the aerospace industry in Boeing in two days, and he wants you there. Of course, that was more important than sitting around a table listening to Lane. So I, I hurriedly got the plane to come get me, go home and get some clothes, and then we flew -- I'll never forget it, it was a snowy 03:34:00night in Washington -- and we flew to, uh -- had a blowout of the plane, the tires --

BERNSTEIN: Oy.

KOURPIAS: -- landing to get gas in Omaha. But we got there in -- we got there in the morning, about six, seven o'clock in the morning. I had just enough time to go to the hotel, refreshen up a little bit. So I get there, and all my buddies, CEOs from, uh, uh, Lockheed and Boeing and US Air and United and all of them, Northwest, you know, they're looking at me like, "What in the hell is he doing here?" Then a couple of them got a little wise. One guy -- the one CEO from Northwest comes up to me, and then later when we become very well acquainted after, uh, I got on the board at Northwest Airlines, "What's going to happen here? How come he's calling us together?" And I says, 03:35:00"Well," I says -- don't -- pretend like you're a dummy, George. I said, "Well, I think he's got some important stuff to say," (inaudible). But anyway, we were going into this room, this table. He comes in; he starts talking. He totally caught them off guard, the knowledge that he had of the aerospace industry.

BERNSTEIN: Uh.

KOURPIAS: Where the markets were, what had to be done. And then he said -- and there were about 10 or 12 of us -- he said, "I want to go around the table -- it won't take more than two minutes -- tell me what's on the top of your list." And I was sitting there. He started over here and he went around, and all of these guys are talking about getting help for this and that, and government stays out of business and all of that crap. And he gets to me, and he says, "George?" I says, "Well, Mr. President, we're going to find out 03:36:00that deregulation is going to kill this industry. Not tomorrow, but eventually it will. And if what we didn't want was to have only three or four carriers in America, we're going to get, unless the trend changes. And I'd plead with you to see that we do something to change that trend." Uh, he says, "Well, thank you, George." And then he looked at me, and -- like I say, this man -- I didn't think there was another person sitting in the seat when he looked at me.

BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.

KOURPIAS: He said, "I want to thank you especially for being here." So he got up to leave, they shook hands, I shook his hand. He said, "I meant what I said." But, uh, on trade we had problems with him. Uh, we went out to a Labor Day picnic in Oakland, and then we went across -- that was -- remember I told 03:37:00you we left Miami, Des Moines --

BERNSTEIN: Right.

KOURPIAS: -- and then we were in San Francisco, Oakland and San Francisco. And, uh, Clinton was to be at the Labor Day. And, uh, I got together, with a industrialist, so-called, he was. Had good ideas about building, producing the first electric car. And he talked first our people in California -- he was from California. Then they got him to meet with me, and I said, "Man, this might be a big opening here." So our people went to work, worked with the Labor Department, and Clinton agreed to become the partnership, the union, the government, and this industrialist who was going to put some money up, and 03:38:00Clinton was going to put some money up --

BERNSTEIN: For the electric -- ?

KOURPIAS: Yeah, to start the, the, the thing moving.

BERNSTEIN: The development process.

KOURPIAS: Yeah. And, uh, uh, it was at that picnic we were to sign. And I'll never forget at the signing, and before he signed his name, he looked at me and he says, "Is this all right, George?" (laughter) He didn't know the management guy, you know; he didn't know him. But that day I had asked to meet with him on the whole issue of Boeing and McDonnell Douglas giving high technology to the Chinese --

BERNSTEIN: Yeah.

KOURPIAS: -- and to other companies. So the White House called and said, 03:39:00"Could you" -- Clinton was going to spend a week, uh, uh, at, uh, what's the big resort up in the mountains? Uh -- oh God. Skiing and all that stuff.

BERNSTEIN: In, in Colorado, you mean?

KOURPIAS: Yeah.

BERNSTEIN: Vail, or Aspen?

KOURPIAS: No, it wasn't Vail or Aspen, it was -- Anyway. And then he said, "Would you fly from Washington" -- Jackson Hole.

BERNSTEIN: Jackson Hole, of course.

KOURPIAS: " -- to Jackson Hole and meet with the president there?" I says, "Sure, I'll go anyplace." Then the phone came, came back, and he says, "He would rather meet with you in Oakland or San Francisco." We had the picnic -- yeah. Uh, "And then the two of you can ride from the picnic, uh, to the airplane, and you can talk to him during that period of time." So I said, "Fine. Whatever -- you know, whatever he wants." So, uh, I, I get -- they 03:40:00take me and they put me in his limousine. And, uh, the current, uh -- his, uh, administrative assistant, chief of staff, was the secretary of defense now, a congressman from California. Now secretary of defense. And, uh, he was on there, and they also brought the assistant secretary of labor. The secretary of labor was someplace else. And, uh, we get -- the president finally comes into the -- gets into the limousine. We shake hands. He's sitting there, like you are, and I'm sitting here. And we start moving. And people are going crazy. You know, shouting. And he says, uh, to the Secret Service guy in the front seat, who, by 03:41:00the way, his hair was combed just like Clinton. (laughter) I think they do that in order to -- if somebody's going to take the bullet -- (laughter) But anyway, it really was.

BERNSTEIN: Some job, really.

KOURPIAS: I mean, I was looking at him. But --

BERNSTEIN: Huh, that's interesting.

KOURPIAS: -- I got on a, a -- we start -- he, uh, uh, said to his Secret Service guy, he said, "Let me out of here. I want to, you know, shake hands." And Secret Service said, "No, no, we can't, Mr. President." He said, "At the airport there are a few hundred people, and we've already put them through the sensors so that there we know, but we're not stopping the limousine now."

BERNSTEIN: In the middle of the --

KOURPIAS: He got mad, said a few things. As we're -- the process -- the procedure -- I mean, the deal was very slow. People on both sides of the street, you know. There was a young man waving this sign, and next to him was a 03:42:00beautiful young lady, short shorts, (inaudible), and the sign said, "Look, Mr. President," and he kept pointing at this girl. And the President looked at me and he said, "Man, if she belonged to me, I'd want the President to see her too." (laughter) Anyway. But we, we had a good discussion.

BERNSTEIN: He had sense of humor. Yeah?

KOURPIAS: Huh? Had a good discussion. You know, the thing is that I talked and talked and talked, and, uh -- Panella [sic], Panella is the secre--

BERNSTEIN: Of course, yes. Thank you.

KOURPIAS: Yeah. He, he was taking notes, and I said, "You know, China," and he said, "Are you sure they're giving them technology that -- ?" I said, "Listen, Mr. President, they're giving them technology to build airplanes." I said, "That's enough right there." Well, Boeing always told me, "George, we don't give them anything that can harm us in the end."

BERNSTEIN: Right.

KOURPIAS: "It's little stuff we're giving them." They were giving them big technology, and we know it now, you know, and they're doing all our work. So during Clinton's term we had our ups and our downs.

BERNSTEIN: What came out of the meeting that you were -- went to with the aerospace and -- leaders?

KOURPIAS: OK. That day in Boeing? Yeah.

BERNSTEIN: Yes. What came out of -- what was the result of that?

KOURPIAS: Well, first of all, I'm only guessing. I think the President wanted these guys to know that he was no dummy when it came to their industry.

BERNSTEIN: Huh.

KOURPIAS: And one of the things he said, "I want to be a President that helps you sell airplanes," which always struck them -- which is good.

BERNSTEIN: Yeah.

KOURPIAS: And by the way, on two occasions I went to the White House where, uh, foreign countries bought our airplanes because of Clinton. So, you know, and he 03:44:00wanted to get that across, but I think more importantly, to get to know these people, who of course were not for him when he was running for president.

BERNSTEIN: Right.

KOURPIAS: And, uh, tell them that I have knowledge of your -- I mean, this guy, I think he can read a paragraph and remember it for the rest of his life.

BERNSTEIN: Yeah.

KOURPIAS: He is really --

BERNSTEIN: He's an incredible study.

KOURPIAS: Yeah, yeah, he really is. And I see now that --

BERNSTEIN: Across the board.

KOURPIAS: -- his daughter's going to get involved --

BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.

KOURPIAS: -- and, uh, it makes me feel happy, because, uh, she's really acted like a real ex-president's daughter should. She didn't really get mixed up in all that early on, so. They're a great family.

BERNSTEIN: Yeah, I'm very impressed with her, mostly.

KOURPIAS: Yeah.

BERNSTEIN: Yeah. She's going to do --

KOURPIAS: She's going to do some good stuff. So, you know, we had --

BERNSTEIN: That's good.

KOURPIAS: -- like I say, our ups and downs with Clinton. We supported him for a 03:45:00second term, of course. The, um -- the, the -- anytime that I wanted to get a message to him -- he was right when he pointed his finger at me and said, "George, you're going to sit at the table." He was right. I mean, I never had a problem meeting with him or any of his aides. I mean, we were -- we were being screwed around by NASA at Wallops Island, which we should have had the right -- we did have the right for years --

BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.

KOURPIAS: -- for a closed agreement, that everybody had to belong to the union. And this new director, he gets, uh, uh, appointed by Clinton and changes that, tells people, "Tell the -- tell the supervisors out in the line that this is Virginia law. It's right to work. They don't have to belong." But we come under federal agreements, federal contract. So this jerk, Shapiro I think was 03:46:00his name, uh, uh, kept screwing me around. I met with him a few times. So I called up Harold Ickes, because Harold was at the White House. And I said, uh, "This is what this guy's doing to us," and I said, "I want the President to know." He said, "Better yet, George," he said, "I'll call the son of a bitch down here, and we'll have a meeting at the White House." Well, you can't get anything better than that. Allison Beck and I, our attorney, went. And I walk into the room, and, um, um, sit down. We shake hands again. This guy starts telling me, the administrator, how he was a great union man; his father was a union man. Then Harold walks in, sits down. He said, "By the way, George, the President says hello," kind of jabbing him.

BERNSTEIN: (laughter) A little.

KOURPIAS: And then he says, "OK, what are we going to do here?" So I told him what the problem was. And, uh, uh, Harold look at the -- looked at this guy -- I'll never forget the look on his face -- and he said, "Listen, don't waste my goddamn time over this. We know what the law is; now follow it." We shook hands. You can't get anything better than that, you know.

BERNSTEIN: Yeah, that's cute.

KOURPIAS: The problem was --

BERNSTEIN: Cannot get anything more straightforward. Huh.

KOURPIAS: So. But we, we had some -- a good relationship with him during the, the eight years that, uh, uh, that I had the honor of being president.

BERNSTEIN: Want to take a short break?

KOURPIAS: Sure, if we can.

BERNSTEIN: Yep. The little lines are moving, so that's a good thing. So we're, we're talking about when you're president.

KOURPIAS: Well, you know, the Boeing strike and all of that, and, uh, Eastern. 03:48:00And then there came a time where, uh, uh, Lane Kirkland, there was a lot of talk about Lane being in his late seventies, seeking another term. And, um, I heard of a movement, and --

BERNSTEIN: And when is -- this is in the early '90s?

KOURPIAS: Yes. This would -- well. This would -- yeah, yeah, about '93, someplace in there.

BERNSTEIN: OK.

KOURPIAS: And, uh, there's an author, by the way, that wrote a book on Lane Kirkland three or four years ago, and it's not bad. They interviewed me, but they didn't tell the full story. He was really partial to, uh, to Lane. But, uh --

BERNSTEIN: I saw it, but I didn't actually read it. I confess.

KOURPIAS: Yeah, OK. Yeah. Uh, I -- first of all, we have in our constitution, and I always believed, that we were not dead on having people to, uh, promote and people to, to run for office. People didn't have to stay there forever; we had young blood in the union then and had different ideas. And years and years ago the Machinists put a clause in the contract that when -- in the constitution -- when you're 65 years old you had to retire. And we lived by that. And it served us well, served us well, because there -- after somebody serves 4 or 8 or 12 years, they become pretty complacent, and not only that, it's that they don't -- I mean, you need new blood and new energy. So we always believed that, and we on several occasions attempted to amend the, um, uh, AF of L–CIO constitution.

BERNSTEIN: To have --

KOURPIAS: Yeah. But of course --

BERNSTEIN: Well, Meany served until he was --

KOURPIAS: -- you know, Meany served forever. Yeah.

BERNSTEIN: -- I don't know how old, but quite a way over 65.

KOURPIAS: Yes.

BERNSTEIN: And...

KOURPIAS: Can I tell you a quick story on Meany and Wimpy?

BERNSTEIN: Yes. Yep.

KOURPIAS: Uh, when Wimp become president, um, at the AF of L–CIO convention in Los Angeles, the Machinists threw a reception for the delegates to introduce Wimpy to them. He was going on the executive council of the AFL–CIO. He and Meany, you know, Wimp said Meany ought to drop dead and all of that, and, you know, they just were not good friends. Um, so we're betting. I said, uh, "Meany ain't gonna show up." He said, "Nah, I don't think so 03:51:00either." Reception was to begin at 6:00. At about a quarter of 6:00, here comes George Meany and his cane. Walks in, shakes hands with Wimp, gets the first small, round table, and he sits there.

BERNSTEIN: No kidding.

KOURPIAS: And he sat there all night. Just to show Wimp, The hell with you, buster. (laughs)

BERNSTEIN: (laughter) I'm still --

KOURPIAS: So but anyway --

BERNSTEIN: That's very interesting.

KOURPIAS: -- uh, uh, for my time, uh, it was a lot of talk, you know, Is Lane going to run again? And of course if he wanted to run he probably had the votes. And there was rumors out and, uh, and, uh, when I was asked, I said, "I stand by our policy, and our policy is that, uh, when a person turns 65 years old, he ought to go someplace else or do something other and allow younger people to take over." Um, then I got a call from Jerry McEntee. Uh, he said, "Can I 03:52:00come out and see you?" I said, "Sure." Um, I had known McEntee for, you know, a number of years. By the way, he's now on his last leg as president of AFSCME. He'll be retiring and, uh, somebody else take over. Uh, but anyway, Jerry came out, and we start talking. And he said -- and I always had a really high respect for John Sweeney. Meetings and stuff like that. And he says, "What do you think of, uh, of, uh, us, uh, starting a movement to get rid of Lane?"

BERNSTEIN: Yeah.

KOURPIAS: I said, "Well, we got to have a candidate." And I told him, I says, "It's not Lane, it's the fact that he's in his late seventies. He 03:53:00does not -- uh, uh, he can't bring in younger people to look at a 77-year-old man that leads the movement. I mean, you want young blood." And, um, he says, "Well, if we play our cards right, we can, um, get John Sweeney to run." I said, "Do you think so?" He said, "Yeah." I said, "All right, keep me informed as to what's happening, and we'll go from there."

BERNSTEIN: Now, this is two full years before the election, right?

KOURPIAS: About a year and a half. About a year and a half.

BERNSTEIN: Because Sweeney comes in '95 in my --

KOURPIAS: OK. So he was -- he was the late '94 and early '95. Yeah.

BERNSTEIN: Yeah, OK.

KOURPIAS: So --

BERNSTEIN: I think.

KOURPIAS: -- uh, I didn't hear any more from Jerry for a couple of weeks. And I heard that -- maybe Jerry called me. I can't remember exactly. And that John 03:54:00Sweeney had gone to see Lane and just laid it on the table. He didn't say he was going to run, he just said --

BERNSTEIN: He just said, "It's time."

KOURPIAS: -- "You know, there's a lot of talk, and, uh, you're getting up there in age, and, uh, the people don't want to see another, uh, uh, Meany type of thing occurring in the labor movement," and all the right stuff. And Lane took it pretty bad. Well, uh, I, I forget where I was, and I get a call from Lane.

BERNSTEIN: Huh.

KOURPIAS: Uh, he said, uh, "I suppose you know why I'm calling." And I said, "Well, have an idea." He said, "Well, George, I want to ask you to support me for another term as president." I said, "You know, Lane, it's not you, it's what this all means. And I hear a lot of rumbling among our 03:55:00membership" -- and it was true -- "that, Jesus Christ, we got another George Meany on our hands." And I said, "As you know, the Machinists constitution prohibits anybody to run beyond 65, and I would not be following the feelings of our members" --

BERNSTEIN: Right.

KOURPIAS: -- "if I were to support you. Now, if nobody runs against you, there's nothing I can do. You know." And, uh, uh, he was very gracious. And I had -- when I become president, one of the first calls I got, of course, was from Lane. I didn't know Lane too well. I had attended -- I was -- when they had the first school for full-time representatives that ended up at the Meany Center in downtown Washington.

BERNSTEIN: Yeah.

KOURPIAS: And I was in that first class.

BERNSTEIN: Oh, no kidding.

KOURPIAS: And there were about 20 of us who were executive assistants or vice presidents, and we went through a two-week training period.

BERNSTEIN: Huh.

KOURPIAS: We didn't stay there, we stayed at home, but, you know. And Lane came on graduation night to give us, uh, to give our diplomas. And that's the only time I had really met Lane.

BERNSTEIN: Hmm.

KOURPIAS: So anyway, uh, uh, we're getting ready to, uh, to, uh, uh, to go to Miami to the winter meetings. Uh, I contacted Jerry and I said, "What's happening?" And he says he hasn't heard much but, uh, we still got to work on, on Sweeney to run. And I said, "Well, I don't think John will." "Well," he said, "we'll see." So we get down to Miami, and, uh, our first meeting, Lane said, uh, "We'll adjourn for lunch" -- no, he said, 03:57:00"Tomorrow morning will be an executive session," which means that everybody left the room excepting the officers.

BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.

KOURPIAS: He said, "We'll start and we'll work for as long as it takes." Somebody questioned him what it was all about. I knew what it was about. And he just said, "Well, we'll have the meeting," very stern. Which he didn't smile much in those meetings. George Meany didn't either. So, um, we assemble. It's the longest executive council meeting that the AF of L–CIO ever had. Five hours.

BERNSTEIN: That's a long time.

KOURPIAS: So he opens it up with a statement and that he intended to run again, really, you know, saying, to hell with you guys; I got the votes.

BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.

KOURPIAS: Then he started around the table. And he looked at me. He says, "George, I don't know what your bitch is." He said, "Wasn't I on the picket line at Eastern every time you wanted me? Was I with you when you become president of the Machinists? Did I call you?" I said, "Lane, you absolutely did, and I was happy for it, and you are a friend, but that has nothing to do -- what -- the role you played was expected of you as president of the Federation." And I said, "You know, I thanked you before and I thank you again. Yes. You never said no to me. Every time I asked for something, 03:59:00especially on Eastern, you were there. Hell, we" -- and Pittston.

BERNSTEIN: Right.

KOURPIAS: So he went around the table. People raised their hand. John Sweeney. He was really pissed at McEntee because he knew McEntee --

BERNSTEIN: Had been --

KOURPIAS: -- was the beginning of this thing. And really, he and McEntee got into it, and back and forth, and one council member got up -- oh, Maritime Union guy, uh, little short guy. Uh, Mike -- oh, boy. Mike -- starts with an S. Anyway, he jumped up and called us that we're anti-Kirkland son-of-a-bitches. And, uh, I mean, it was a hot -- everybody. [Poor?], uh, the Steel Worker, uh, he, uh, uh -- George Becker.

BERNSTEIN: Mmm.

KOURPIAS: When Lynn Williams retired, of course Becker sat next to me. We become close friends because we were both fighting over the, uh, baggage people at airlines at US Air at Pittsburgh. And we made up, and we become very decent friends. And I was responsible to get him to back -- be against Lane in that movement, and, uh, Lynn Williams really was upset that that happened, but George stayed with us. And uh, he told him the same thing, "Ed" -- I mean, "Lane, uh, you're getting up there. I'm not going to stay forever either," and, you know, this type of thing. But it was a damn, damn hot meeting. And he adjourned, and that evening --

BERNSTEIN: So there wasn't a vote, there were just people talking about what they thought.

KOURPIAS: No, they, they, they -- he laid his cards on the table --

BERNSTEIN: He said, "This is why I deserve your support," and people answered.

KOURPIAS: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

BERNSTEIN: And --

KOURPIAS: And what he did, went around the table. You had -- I mean, everybody around the table owed him something. After all, he's the president of the AF of L–CIO.

BERNSTEIN: And was anybody -- I mean, that's pretty straightforward of you to say you did it as an insti-- as part of your job.

KOURPIAS: Absolutely.

BERNSTEIN: Which is true. It's an institutional --

KOURPIAS: For me, for me to agree --

BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.

KOURPIAS: -- membership looks at you and says, Hey, we have it. Why didn't they have it? And why did you vote that way? So, that evening, going out to dinner, the wife and I went, and Lane was standing there. Come up, and he says, "When do you get back to Washington?" So I told him. He said, um, "I need to meet with you immediately." He said, "I'll be in. Call my secretary." I said, "OK." So I had a couple other stops after Miami and then went back 04:02:00and called him up. And he said, uh, "Can you come down to the office?" I thought, "Well, am I going to get it? The old man's after me!" I went in about three o'clock, and we start talking, nice discussion. Had the TV on, the news was beginning. He said, uh, "Would you run for president of the AFL–CIO?" I said, "What?" (laughter) He said, "Would you run -- if I decide not to run" -- he didn't say he was going to go out --

BERNSTEIN: Right.

KOURPIAS: -- but "if I decide, would you run?" He said, "I can make it happen." I said, "Lane, I'm 63 years old. I'm retiring in two years, and 04:03:00I'm not going to retire from the Machinists, break the pledge of our union, and come over here." Well, we watched the news, and ten minutes goes by. I don't know what to do. I want to leave, to tell you the truth, but how do I abruptly end the conversation? So I said to him, "Lane, if that's what you want, why don't you ask John Sweeney?" He went in a rage.

BERNSTEIN: Really?

KOURPIAS: He said, "That son-of-a-bitch! I will never want that ever to happen."

BERNSTEIN: And is that because he knew he'd already been lobbying for it?

KOURPIAS: He knew that John -- well, John had called him, see, and told him that, "I've talked to several International presidents" --

BERNSTEIN: "And they think it's time."

KOURPIAS: -- "and they think it's time for you to go."

BERNSTEIN: Yeah. Is that the only thing he had against Sweeney? I guess that's my question--

KOURPIAS: Yeah, that was enough.

BERNSTEIN: There was no--

KOURPIAS: They were very close, by the way, but that divided them.

BERNSTEIN: Yeah.

KOURPIAS: So I said, "Well, what about Donahue?" ["He don't want it?"?] Which was a lie. "No." So I got the impression so quick that he didn't want Tom to succeed. I said, "Well" -- and he kept -- I mean, the news is going on.

BERNSTEIN: Right.

KOURPIAS: And he kept saying to me, "I can make it happen." So I said, "Well, Lane, there's no use continuing this. I will not change my mind." Well he said, "I" -- he said, "I don't want you to tell me that. I want 04:05:00you to go home and think about this." I wanted to get out of there, (laughter) so I said, "Lane, I ain't going to run," and, you know, he said, "Please think about it." He just kept saying that. And so finally we shook hands and left. I left. So I had made up my mind that the conversation -- and he didn't ask this -- that the conversation that he and I had would stay in that room, that I wasn't going to tell McEntee and others that --

BERNSTEIN: Right.

KOURPIAS: -- you know, this guy was going -- I, I said to myself, It ought to be 04:06:00either Tom -- and I got along well with Tom -- or John. So Lane calls -- not Lane. Uh, um, McEntee calls a meeting of the unions that were looking for an alternative. John Sweeney, Owen Bieber, the painter. Uh, not the painter, the -- oh, God -- the Operating Engineer guy. I'm, I'm sorry, I forget names.

BERNSTEIN: That's OK.

KOURPIAS: Um, uh, Rich Trumka. Um, um, [Sig?] -- I forget his last name -- and he came from -- I guess it was the Painters. Maybe not. Anyway, I think there was six of us in total. Well, we -- by the way, this was not a new meeting of this coalition. We met in Miami the night before Lane called that special meeting.

BERNSTEIN: OK.

KOURPIAS: Because, you know, we wanted to get our thoughts together and made up our minds that we were not going to make any propositions or anything at that meeting. So we had a meeting. I think it -- at the Mine Workers building, at Rich's building. Anyway. So, we're, you know, who's going to run? I mean, we, we --

BERNSTEIN: Right.

KOURPIAS: -- we all know that there's got to be a replacement, that Lane ought to go, but we got to find a candidate. So -- and I knew this was what Jerry wanted, too. I quickly said, "John, it's you." And Sweeney, "Nah, nah, no, I don't think so." So we talked for about an hour -- excuse me -- and finally got John to say, "Well, give me a couple days, let me think about it."

BERNSTEIN: Now, why was he demurring at this point?

KOURPIAS: What?

BERNSTEIN: Why was Sweeney saying no at this point?

KOURPIAS: Well, because, you know, he was heading up the fastest growing union in the Federation. Uh, uh, who wants, uh, the additional responsibilities? Uh, uh, he liked the --

BERNSTEIN: Who wants to fight?

KOURPIAS: Yeah, who wants to fight? And, you know, he loved his union very dearly. So, uh, uh, we set our meeting to meet again about a week or two later, and, uh, we've convinced John. John would go for president, and Rich Trumka would go for secretary–treasurer. We swore to each other that that -- we were 04:09:00going to stay united. What -- oh, the Laborer. He's now retired from the Laborer's Union. And the fight began. So I'm at a -- I have my staff at Myrtle Beach, and since we decided at that meeting the night before, two nights before, that it would now be out in the open, that we would tell the press person, and John would agree that he's thinking about it and all that stuff.

BERNSTEIN: So and you're basically planning a year -- the actual vote will happen in the next --

KOURPIAS: Oh, yeah, yeah. We're, we're --

BERNSTEIN: -- winter meeting, right, so it's a year after.

KOURPIAS: Yeah, it's within the next year that --

BERNSTEIN: Yeah.

KOURPIAS: Yeah.

BERNSTEIN: OK.