Donald Kovacs oral history interview, 2015-03-20

TRACI DRUMMOND: Good morning.

DONALD KOVACS: Good morning.

DRUMMOND: Um, this is Traci Drummond. I am here with Donald Kovacs, who is sitting for an oral history for the Southern Labor Archives. Um, today is March 20th, 2015. We are on the Georgia State University campus in Atlanta, Georgia. Um, welcome and thank you so much for not only calling me, but following up, (laughs) when I didn't get back to you in a timely manner. As you know, I'm very excited. Welcome.

KOVACS: I am, too. I am very appreciative of the opportunity.

DRUMMOND: Um, so let's just get started with some basic questions.

KOVACS: Okay.

DRUMMOND: Where and when were you born?

KOVACS: I was born on December 19th, 1947, in Cleveland, Ohio, along with a brother, a fraternal brother who's six minutes older than I am.

DRUMMOND: A fraternal twin.

KOVACS: A fraternal twin.

DRUMMOND: So that means you don't, you are twins but you don't look exactly alike.

KOVACS: Exactly.

DRUMMOND: And are you the only two children in the family?

KOVACS: No, we have a half brother that, ah, is seven years older than both of 00:01:00us, that was, ah, born in Sarasota, Florida, I believe.

DRUMMOND: Okay.

KOVACS: Seven years earlier.

DRUMMOND: And is he on your mother's side or your father's side?

KOVACS: He is on my mother's side.

DRUMMOND: Okay, so and well then, this begs the question, if you all were in such different places, how did your parents actually meet. Do you know?

KOVACS: Ah, just a little bit. My dad was in the Army Air Force and he was a ground school instructor and my mom worked on that base and they met together down in Florida and I don't remember what city it was, but it was on one of the military bases.

DRUMMOND: Okay. And why did they decide to move to Cleveland?

KOVACS: I think for my father's employment and he was born in Cleveland and he had two brothers also, from Cleveland. And after he got discharged from the Army Air Force, he had a chance to work up there and he stayed up there for a long time.

DRUMMOND: What kind of work did he do?

KOVACS: He was in orthopedics. He made braces for people with disabilities, um, 00:02:00different ages and, and he worked in downtown Atlanta. At Atlanta Orthotics.

DRUMMOND: Okay. But how did that translate from the military experience?

KOVACS: You know, I wish I could answer that question. I have no idea. I think that during that period of time there was just so many people leaving the armed forces that they wanted to work and they took one of the first things that was readily available.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm. So it was like an on-the-job training?

KOVACS: Um, I'm sure it was on-the-job training when he went up for that job.

DRUMMOND: Okay. And you said that your mom worked, too, that they met because she was working on the base.

KOVACS: Yes.

DRUMMOND: What did she do there?

KOVACS: You know, I don't remember exactly, but it had something to do with the mechanical environment of the, um, aircraft that were down there. Ah, she wasn't like, um, one of the riveters. I can't remember the famous woman, it was Molly the Riveter or?

DRUMMOND: Rosie.

KOVACS: Rosie the Riveter. (laughs)

DRUMMOND: Uh-huh, uh-huh.

KOVACS: But, um, she did a wide range of things.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm. Okay. And so what year did they get married?

KOVACS: Oh lord, I can't even remember, Traci.

DRUMMOND: No, no, that's fine. And so it was shortly after he was discharged that they moved back to Cleveland.

KOVACS: Yes.

DRUMMOND: Where they settled in.

KOVACS: Yes.

DRUMMOND: And, um, and you said previously that there was a lot of family there. Was it a family business, the orthotics or?

KOVACS: No, it really wasn't a family business, but my grandparents had left Budapest, Hungary, um, when the Communists were in there seizing property and stuff and did have some property. So they fled to the United States. And ended up in Cleveland, Ohio.

DRUMMOND: Do you know more about that story?

KOVACS: Very little.

DRUMMOND: Very little.

KOVACS: But there were other people that left, ah, Czechoslovakia and Hungary during that same period of time, within a two-year, three-year period of time and they all lived together within maybe three or four miles.

DRUMMOND: So it was like a neighborhood of immigrants.

KOVACS: Yes.

DRUMMOND: Who had come from the same --

KOVACS: For the most part.

DRUMMOND: Part -- yeah.

KOVACS: For the most part.

DRUMMOND: Do you know if maybe it was, um, um, immigrants from all ov-, was it more of an immigrant neighborhood than maybe people who had been like second or third generation?

KOVACS: It was a, more of an immigrant neighborhood.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: But what was very interesting was we were never more than a five-minute drive from either an aunt or an uncle or somebody like that.

DRUMMOND: What do you remember most about your grandparents, from when you were little?

KOVACS: I know that they worked very, very hard and they had very, very little and um, my, ah, grandfather played in a band that was pretty well known in Cleveland. What the name was I don't know and my grandmother was probably the most loving woman besides my mother I've ever known.

DRUMMOND: Do you remember, um, getting Hungarian specialties like the cooking?

KOVACS: Always, always, always, always. Yes.

DRUMMOND: And have those traditions sort of stayed with you? Are there still things?

KOVACS: There are still things that my wife makes from time to time. My grandmother was a great bakery. I call her a chef

DRUMMOND: Uh-huh.

KOVACS: And ah, it's funny that we're talking about this the other day. I can remember as a child going in the woods and picking blueberries and blackberries and she would make blackberry pie and every time I eat a blackberry, it brings me back to those moments, which is a long time ago.

DRUMMOND: That's wonderful. So, um, your parents met, married, moved to Cleveland.

KOVACS: Yes.

DRUMMOND: And your dad started working, did your mom continue to work once she got there? Do you know?

KOVACS: She didn't work at first. Ah, we lived in a neighborhood where most of the incomes were the same. And ah --

DRUMMOND: Was it a very working class neighborhood?

KOVACS: Very, very.

DRUMMOND: Okay.

KOVACS: Very working class neighborhood. In fact, I don't want to say that we 00:06:00were poor, but at the beginning of school year we would sit down and we would get one brown paper bag and my parents would say, "This is the bag for the school year. If you lose it, then you'll have to carry your lunch in your pockets," and that went on for about two or three years. And then my mom went to work in the cafeteria, cleaning dishes.

DRUMMOND: At the school?

KOVACS: At the school. At the elementary school, so we could have one hot meal out of the five days.

DRUMMOND: So was it more common for students to bring their lunch at that time?

KOVACS: Always.

DRUMMOND: Okay.

KOVACS: Yeah.

DRUMMOND: Interesting. What was it like seeing your mom at school every day?

KOVACS: Um, it was different. But it was, um, it was very much welcome. You know. We had a -- we had a very good family.

DRUMMOND: So you said you were born in '40 --

KOVACS: Seven, 1947.

DRUMMOND: Forty-seven. And that, ah, your stepbrother, your half-brother --

KOVACS: Right.

DRUMMOND: Was born in --

KOVACS: Had to be '40.

DRUMMOND: Forty.

KOVACS: Some time ago.

DRUMMOND: And so how was the transition for him? Did he, did he go, or did he stay with his mother?

KOVACS: He stayed with our mom. So there was --

DRUMMOND: OK, so he came in and became part of the family there.

KOVACS: Yes, yes. And very much like, ah, I don't want to say "a real biological brother," but we're very, very close.

DRUMMOND: Okay. And um, and the family welcomed him, even though -- ?

KOVACS: Yes.

DRUMMOND: Okay.

KOVACS: Yes.

DRUMMOND: Wonderful. Wonderful. Um. So growing up, what was it like growing up in Cleveland, Ohio in the '50s?

KOVACS: Well, we lived actually in the suburb called Parma, Ohio --

DRUMMOND: Okay.

KOVACS: -- and there were six or seven suburbs and ah, it was a great, um, childhood. Of course, at that point in time we were within walking distance of the elementary school and every Saturday we would go and we would do intramural sports, basketball and baseball and football and stuff like that. So it, um, and 00:08:00there was a lot of kids our age.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: That was beneficial.

DRUMMOND: Was it a community sort of built around a school so that it was easy to walk to get places? Or did you go on a bus or?

KOVACS: No, I think that school was there. Why they elected to put it there I don't know, but those different suburbs around Cleveland are fundamentally the same.

DRUMMOND: Okay. Um. What did you enjoy in school? What was your favorite subject or?

KOVACS: Math and science.

DRUMMOND: Yeah?

KOVACS: From square one. My dad was very much still into aviation. He was very much into model airplanes and I followed suit. I always felt, thought that I was going to be a pilot, it didn't end up that way for a couple different reasons, but ah, I started loving airplanes. I'll probably die loving airplanes.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: It's really part of me.

DRUMMOND: And so then moving up through, ah, did you have middle school then? Or was it just elementary straight to high school?

KOVACS: Ah, it was elementary school, then to middle school --

DRUMMOND: Okay.

KOVACS: Which was in Seven Hills, Ohio and we took a bus there. And did our seventh and eighth and ninth grade education there. And then we ended up going to another high school for our sophomore year. Spent one year there and spent the last two years at another high school and we, ah, we lived on the street, it was called Boundary Lane, because it was the dividing line between the two towns, the two cities and we could literally walk across the street and go to high school, which was very nice.

DRUMMOND: Um. So all through high school, you know, nowadays there's a real big emphasis on college prep, um, although and then some kids know they want to, 00:10:00you know, take the more hands-on like workshop classes and prepare for a trade. What -- what -- was a difference made in your high school? Or did it lean one way or the other or? KOVACS: I think I had made a fundamental decision at a real young age that I really wanted to fly. And ah, I had already applied to Ohio State. In the last, when I was a junior I decided I wanted to go to the Navy Academy, Annapolis and I was hoping for a congressional appointment, but that didn't happen. So --

DRUMMOND: And for people who don't know what, including myself, what does "congressional appointment" mean?

KOVACS: Well, there's two or three different ways you can get into a military academy. Ah, if your parents are a Medal of Honor winner, there's always a position held open for those people. Or you can get appointments from senators and congressman or you can take just, ah, an exam and if you score high enough on that exam, there's so many slots for that. So that was, ah, my train of 00:11:00thought. I graduated from high school on June 15th of 1965. Unfortunately, the only place that was giving the test was in San Diego, California. So I enlisted in the Navy and went to San Diego in boot camp and took the test for Annapolis, but didn't make the cut. And ah, after that I ended up going to six-month radar school in Treasure Island, San Francisco.

DRUMMOND: What school?

KOVACS: Radar school.

DRUMMOND: Oh, radar. I thought you said "raider" like the football team. Radar school. KOVACS: No, it's radar school. I wanted to be an air traffic controller then. It was one of the fields that I qualified for, but back in the mid '60s you had to be 21. That's all changed right now.

DRUMMOND: How long were you, ah, in the Navy?

KOVACS: I was called a "kitty cruiser." I enlisted when I was 17 and they were mandated to release me before my 21st birthday.

DRUMMOND: OK.

KOVACS: So less than four years, but at that period of time was prob-, had the most impact on my entire life and if I had a chance to do it over again, I would. I met some of my closest friends there and still get together today.

DRUMMOND: And so was radar school part of your time? Or was that something that came after?

KOVACS: It was part of my time.

DRUMMOND: Okay.

KOVACS: So we spent a couple months in boot camp, in San Diego. And then I went to San Francisco for six months, for the radar school. Then was assigned a destroyer that was, ah, in Long Beach, California and we left Long Beach and went to Yokosuka Japan, which was our home port, but for the next almost 22, 23 months, well, we served off the cost of both North and South Vietnam. Doing naval gunfire support and radar picket duties and carriers ops, at the north and the southern stations, they were called "Yankee" and "Dixie" state -- staging areas. And that's when I moved into electronic counter measures, as my 00:13:00occupation versus radar. So I was an electronic counter measures warfare specialist during that whole period of time. And what we would do is we would just go up and down the coast during missions and we would look for certain radar signals that were -- had certain footprints, which could be a threat from the surface-to-surface missile or an air-to-ground missile. It was a very exciting time.

DRUMMOND: That does sound exciting. Well, let me go back and ask, what was radar school like? What did that training involve? And what did it prepare you for?

KOVACS: Okay, so the six-month school is known as a "military class A school", it's one of the very first schools you go to and it gives you a basic fundamental background in electronics and then the electronics associated with different types of radar, because radars can either search for airplanes or they can search for surface targets or they can, ah, provide target acquisition 00:14:00in a flight path for a missile. So we got a good background on that and learned to operate various airborne and fire control and ground search radar systems. Um, and then we were put out in the fleet.

DRUMMOND: Okay. And electronic counter measures, ah, sounds actually kind of like a lot of fun.

KOVACS: It was a lot of fun. Ah, there were only four of us that, ah, partook in those festivities. We had our own separate room that was off of what was called "CIC", the Combat Information Center. That's where the brains of any ship is at and we simply, when we were on watch, would put on a headset and look at a couple scopes and search different frequency arrangements and once we intercepted a signal, then we would plot that signal and that would get forwarded to an Air Force base in Fuji, Japan. They'd put all that information together and within just a few days they would put out new maps and charts saying, "Well, at this latitude and longitude, there's a fire control 00:15:00missile system capable of this type of threat and that type of threat," and it was very exciting.

DRUMMOND: That's -- yeah, that sounds fascinating.

KOVACS: Oh, it really was.

DRUMMOND: The logistics behind things, you know, civilians take for granted, that really is --

KOVACS: And we actually worked with civilians, there were both military and civilian people doing electronic counter measures back in the '60s, they were stationed at the air base in Fuji, Japan.

DRUMMOND: Did you ever find any considerable threats?

KOVACS: Yes, um, we did, as a matter of fact. Ah, one of the biggest ones they were looking for back at that period of time was at what was called a "fan song radar" and it was the platform from which the enemy would use to shoot a surface-to-surface missile.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: Which was a big threat because surface-to-surface missile technology was not what it is today and we did, in fact, intercept one on a quite historic 00:16:00mission and ended up, um, being awarded the Navy Achievement Medal with a Combat Valor "V", the three of us. But that's a story in itself. (laughs)

DRUMMOND: Well, let's here a little bit more about that story. We have time.

KOVACS: Well, we were on a mission and ah, we were accompanied by a light cruiser, the Boston and another destroyer. And we were going into a shore bombardment assignment north of the DMZ and that was one of the places where we were pretty confident that this radar platform existed and when we got up in there, we ended up becoming bracketed between the shoreline in North Vietnam, in a small island called Hon Mat Island and there were three of us, kind of in trail and it got ugly pretty quick. As we went through, the ship in front of us was actually hit, disabled. We ended up pulling that ship out with chains and ah, we had a fire back in one of the mounts, where a seaman ended up throwing 00:17:00five-inch 50, or five-inch 38" projectiles, they weigh about 57 pounds each, up an eight-foot ladder, as this thing was taking place and he was eventually awarded the Navy, ah, Accommodation Level at the combat fee. But it was a fun time and great experience and I went from being the young boy at 17 to being pretty grown up at 20.

DRUMMOND: Right. Yeah.

KOVACS: I really did, I really did.

DRUMMOND: Yeah. So ah, you finished the service.

KOVACS: Finished the service.

DRUMMOND: And what was next for you?

KOVACS: Well, ah, prior to leaving the service I had, um, put forth an application to the FAA, the Federal Aviation Administration for an air traffic controller position. And I was on the roster, took the test and ah, in December of '69, almost a year later, I was picked up and hired and I worked at an in route facility called Cleveland Center that's located in Oberlin, Ohio. And I 00:18:00worked up there from 1969 to 1976. I was trained at the FAA Air Traffic Controller Academy in Oklahoma City. And then in 1976 I had a chance to move south to Atlanta, which we did and we never looked back. And worked in Atlanta from 1976 till August 3rd, 1981.

DRUMMOND: August 3rd, 1981. Ah, before we get to that, ah, story, let me ask, so you went to training, um, but had, in the military, it seems like you didn't get a lot of training with air traffic control, that it was all the electronic counter measures.

KOVACS: The electronic counter measures and that's true because in the military you have air traffic controllers. That job is to keep airplanes apart. And you also have the counterpart to that position, called an "air intercept controller," that purposely puts airplanes together.

DRUMMOND: OK.

KOVACS: In other words, they're taken off from a carrier and going after enemy targets.

DRUMMOND: Uh-huh.

KOVACS: But at the time I was released and discharged from the Navy, that background, ah, really helped me gain a slot on the roster to take the test.

DRUMMOND: Okay.

KOVACS: And I got an additional five points for veterans' preference and I scored high enough where, you know, where I was accepted. And it's a unique job. You know, a lot of people say, ah, you would think that somebody from Harvard or some -- somebody from Yale would have a better chance at doing this job. But when given a choice, you're probably better off with a short order cook at Waffle House, because you never see them take a note.

DRUMMOND: Right.

KOVACS: No, you really haven't.

DRUMMOND: Right, yeah, yeah.

KOVACS: I'm kind of going to the extremes there.

DRUMMOND: Yeah, no, no, no. But it's worth noting. Um. So you took the test, you were accepted, you went through training. And at that time, I'm sure during training you had the opportunity to, to work, of course, with the airplanes, I mean, that's part of the training. But did you have a, before you moved to Atlanta, did you have a, a job for a short time somewhere, as an air 00:20:00traffic controller?

KOVACS: Oh yeah, one year. One year I was employed, I'm sorry, I missed that, with the Cleveland Electric Illuminating Company. I was waiting this 11-month period of time prior to going to the academy and my job was to fix that little spinning disc on your meter that's outside your house.

DRUMMOND: Really?

KOVACS: Yes. (laughs)

DRUMMOND: I bet you couldn't wait for training. (laughs)

KOVACS: Oh, you have no idea, you have no idea.

DRUMMOND: So um, so you go through training and you move to Atlanta and um, are you married by this time? Are you -- ?

KOVACS: Yes, I am.

DRUMMOND: OK, so tell me about meeting your wife.

KOVACS: Well, I met my wife, I guess it's okay to say it, at a bar. Um, when I got back from Vietnam in December of '68 and we dated a few years. We were married on August 21st of 1971 and still together.

DRUMMOND: Fantastic, congratulations. Um. And she was, ah, was she from your neighborhood? Did you know her from -- ?

KOVACS: She --

DRUMMOND: Well, you said you met her at a bar, but I mean, was she sort of from the same area?

KOVACS: She was from Cleveland, you know, just a year younger. Um, and it was a pretty close knit family up there, different places where you could go and have a good time and it just, ah, was in our cards, I guess.

DRUMMOND: OK. And so you both moved to Atlanta, tell me again.

KOVACS: In August of 1976.

DRUMMOND: Okay. So what did you do from '71 to '76?

KOVACS: I was an air traffic controller. So I got discharged from the service.

DRUMMOND: Right. And you worked with the electric company.

KOVACS: Nineteen-sixty-eight, worked for about a year with the electric company.

DRUMMOND: Okay.

KOVACS: Hired on in December of '69 with the FAA.

DRUMMOND: Oh, Okay, Okay.

KOVACS: From '69, from December 29th of 1969 to August 3rd of 1976, I was employed at the Cleveland Air Traffic Control Center.

DRUMMOND: And how did that compare to Atlanta? Once you got to Atlanta.

KOVACS: Well actually, ah, it's not true now, but back then Cleveland was actually the busiest center in the United States and Chicago was second. I think Atlanta was maybe third or fourth and it was a considerable cut in my pay to move from Cleveland to Atlanta. But since that time Atlanta's still holding the number one position and it only took about a year and a half to recover that financial gap.

DRUMMOND: Okay, Okay. Um. And so why did you all pick Atlanta?

KOVACS: My parents were from Atlanta. My older brother was from Atlanta, most of my relatives were from Atlanta, or close, down in Louisiana, either Baton Rouge 00:23:00or Slidell or Metairie and at that point in time, as an air traffic controller, we could walk down into operations of an air carrier and ask them if we could ride up in the cockpit in the jump seat and if it was available you just show them your card and you go and I, ah, went down maybe 14, 15 times and I said to myself, if I ever get the chance to go south, I'm moving south to Atlanta.

DRUMMOND: OK. And was it everything you hoped it would be?

KOVACS: Plus some.

DRUMMOND: Plus some?

KOVACS: Yes, (laughs) it was.

DRUMMOND: Okay. How so?

KOVACS: Well, um, I was doing a lot of flying as a private pilot back then and the weather in Cleveland is that like Chicago. It's either too windy, too rainy, too overcast, too cold, too cool and then you look --

DRUMMOND: The lakes.

KOVACS: Yeah, it's a Great Lakes effect. And it was just a change and ah, in the weather, because I really wanted to continue on flying as much as I possibly could. And I, we were ready for a change.

DRUMMOND: OK. And did you all have kids when you moved?

KOVACS: We did. Ah.

DRUMMOND: OK.

KOVACS: Had a boy, Philip and a girl, Jennifer.

DRUMMOND: OK.

KOVACS: Philip, ah, Philip was born in December of, ah, 1973 and Jennifer in December of 1975.

DRUMMOND: OK.

KOVACS: All Sagittarians.

DRUMMOND: (laughs) Um. So -- PATCO wasn't formed till '68.

KOVACS: Correct.

DRUMMOND: So um, had you joined, once you were in Cleveland? Were you already a member?

KOVACS: Yes. Ah.

DRUMMOND: And what, I mean, were you working in a place where you had the option to join? Or did you have to join?

KOVACS: We never had to join.

DRUMMOND: OK.

KOVACS: Ah, and even though it was called a "union," it really wasn't because you couldn't unionize back then under those certain set of laws. That's why it was called an "organization" or (inaudible).

DRUMMOND: It's more like a professional organization.

KOVACS: Yes, it was. So um, I joined immediately, as most did. But you still had 00:25:00that option. My involvement with PATCO was almost nonexistent with the exception of going to meetings.

DRUMMOND: So you didn't hold any office or position. OK.

KOVACS: I didn't hold any office in any way. However, I was very close friends with Robert Poli, who ended up as the national president.

DRUMMOND: Okay.

KOVACS: When he replaced John Leyden, who's, Bob Poli was from Cleveland Center.

DRUMMOND: Okay, Okay. So um -- let's talk about him in a second, but --

KOVACS: OK.

DRUMMOND: During the time that you were in Cleveland, did you, or I guess even in Atlanta, too, I know that before the strike in '81 there were sickouts and things, did you ever participate in any of those?

KOVACS: Yes, yes.

DRUMMOND: Okay. So what was it like for you, I mean, I know all the reasons that you guys were doing those kinds of things.

KOVACS: Right.

DRUMMOND: But for someone who will use this interview later, can you talk a little bit about why those things were important to you and what you hoped to 00:26:00get from them?

KOVACS: Sure. Um. In Cleveland, um, well actually from the inception of PATCO I think that everybody knew that we would be faced with this ultimate decision of confrontation with the FAA. Um. And we would participate in, ah, slowdowns or planned sickouts, ah, in hopes of using that as a tool of leverage during negotiating phases and for the most part it actually did work. However, there were consequences even to those type of small job actions with people never being terminated, but time off without pay or a letter of reprimand, which is something that one normally doesn't want in their employee file. My motivation to, to join PATCO was based on the fact that the job in itself, ah, was a difficult job, but there was a definable difference between an air traffic 00:27:00controller and a manager. As dynamic as night and day. And I saw it, as most people saw it, some form or degree of protection, um, as we performed these sickouts and things like that, with threats of, you know, either dismissal or letters of reprimand. It also was a, ah, an organization where the camaraderie was second to none. When I left, when I worked in Cleveland, PATCO was incredibly strong, very strong and I saw no need for my participation, especially since I was training and you go through certain stages, I was one of the youngest journeymen in the FAA at that point in time. If you could do the job they would promote you. It was that simple. And they had certain amendments. There was something called a Whitman amendment, that is a government employee, 00:28:00you have to wait so much time before you're promoted. And we got waivers to that. So as fast as you could progress, the government would let you do that. When I left Cleveland I got to Atlanta, there was a tremendous difference in PATCO and the way the organization was at that facility. It was, ah, it was weak. Um, fragmented. Ah, there was a definable, (clears throat) excuse me, rift between managers and people doing their jobs and the people that were running the show at that point in time were close friends, but I just thought there was a better way to do things and that was politically and I just felt that I needed to get involved and that's when things started.

DRUMMOND: Okay. Well, do you think that, that coming to Atlanta and finding that 00:29:00situation here, do you think that that was indicative of the South sort of general aversion to labor unions and organizing and collective bargaining?

KOVACS: Yes. Very much so, without, without question. Um, no one ever would deny or dispute that. You know, it was very, very noticeable. And I think, coming from the North and being thrown into this environment of the South, I used to joke with the guys who were training me. Every now and then I'd say, "Well, it's no wonder you all lost the Civil War. You talk way too slow, you've got to be smooth and fluid, you've got to just get everything out there. (laughs)

DRUMMOND: It's probably for the best that we lost. It is definitely for the best we lost the Civil War. Um. So, but it was a very different environment for you (inaudible).

KOVACS: It was a very different environment, right from the get go.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: Um. I became more involved. I secured a position as a team representative --

DRUMMOND: Okay.

KOVACS: For seven, eight or nine individuals per team and maybe four or five teams per area.

DRUMMOND: And so was that like the equivalent of a shop steward?

KOVACS: Yes. At the team level, that would be a great way to put it.

DRUMMOND: Okay.

KOVACS: So I moved from that team representative position to the area representative. And then from the area representative I served on various committees, ah, discussing negotiations, handling grievances. I was on the Safety Committee. I was appointed by Newt Gingrich for, to serve two years on his Aviation Advisory Committee because PATCO backed me in the Sixth District. Um, and then I moved into the position as vice president and just prior to the strike, president of PATCO Local 101. So I went from team rep, area rep, vice president and president.

DRUMMOND: And as the team rep you were only representing a few, like a group of folks at your level.

KOVACS: A group of folks. Basically the team rep was responsible for the dissemination of information from committee meetings or membership meetings, because maybe you were working and you couldn't get to the meeting that night.

DRUMMOND: Okay.

KOVACS: So that was the responsibility of that individual. The area representative was that, um, I hate to use the term "more sophisticated", but he or she would handle all of the issues going on with the six or seven teams.

DRUMMOND: Okay.

KOVACS: And then the vice president functions as a vice president in handling responsibilities delegated from the president of the local, or being a stepping-stone between the area rep to the vice president and management.

DRUMMOND: Did you all have any sickouts once you got to Atlanta? Or any sort of job actions?

KOVACS: I think --

DRUMMOND: And -- and was the sort of feeling any different than when you were in Cleveland?

KOVACS: Ah, there was a different feeling. Because it was a feeling of, um, I want to make sure I say this correctly, being strong in the North meant that, ah, as a group, you know, there's strength in numbers, as I'm saying. In the South, ah, the management had a tendency to be more aggressive in their pursuit of cease and desist and you know, whether you're slowing down airplanes or going by the book, which, ah, if we ever went by the book, that automatically would slow airplanes down. It does to this day.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: So there was a different feeling, one of, ah, I'm trying to think of the word -- not scared, but ah, concerned that there could be ramifications --

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: -- in an adverse way to, to the facility. And we ended up actually being 00:33:00one of the strongest facilities. Just prior to the strike.

DRUMMOND: And what made that happen?

KOVACS: I think, in my humble, personal opinion, there's many reasons why the strike took place. And um, hopefully we'll have a chance to, to go into them. But I think everyone saw that we deserved better.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: We deserved better protection. The FAA had pulled the Immunity Program from us, which was very detrimental. This program allowed air traffic controllers and pilots to openly admit that he or she had made a mistake. They would put together the information, find the cause, primary and secondary and then disseminate that information to everyone, so everyone learned -- there was nothing but good associated with them. However, the Immunity Program produced 00:34:00many systems errors, or near misses. Or runway conflictions. And the government, at that point in time, actually didn't know how to stop it, but the answer was simply, stop the reporting and the numbers will go down. It went down by 80% the first year.

DRUMMOND: Um. Hm. Um, I want to get back to something you said --

KOVACS: Yes.

DRUMMOND: A minute ago where you said you would go into more detail about things. Let's do that now.

KOVACS: Okay.

DRUMMOND: Yeah.

KOVACS: Specifically, as far as pre-strike or?

DRUMMOND: All of it.

KOVACS: Okay.

DRUMMOND: All of it. Let's -- like I want it, I want the story from a person who, who went through it.

KOVACS: Okay.

DRUMMOND: But then has also had some time to reflect on it and maybe --

KOVACS: Reflect, yeah, right.

DRUMMOND: -- make a little more sense of it.

KOVACS: Well, one of the other positions that I held was that of "Choirboy".

DRUMMOND: Okay.

KOVACS: That I relinquished to Ron Elliott.

DRUMMOND: Okay. And when did the "Choirboys" get started and what was their purpose?

KOVACS: Well, the Choirboy Program really was an idea as back, as far back as 1979 and the executive board in Washington felt that they needed, ah, a second approach to the internal workings of the organization. So they came up with this Choirboy Program and people were appointed from different positions and different facilities to go out and work in clusters and maybe, ah, one choirboy might handle Georgia and Arkansas and Alabama and so on and so on. And the purpose of that program was, was to really solidify or authenticate, is are you telling me that you want more pay? Are you telling me, ah, you want a reduced workweek? All different kind of things that promoted that strike. Um, one of the things that happened, however, when the Choirboys were appointed, it seemed to 00:36:00me, reflecting back, we might have had a degree of militancy that was just a little bit outside the normal member. You know, the normal union member, for the most part, is saying, "OK, when am I getting my raise?" or "When am I getting my days off changed?" um, but it was a way to verify and authenticate what was happening, was so we could compare numbers at different levels to say, "These people are saying they've got 82% of their facility going," but the choirboy says, "No, they have 44%," what's wrong with this picture? Um, I relinquished that position as choirboy because I couldn't handle that and the vice president's position. I just felt it was one of the other and for me, ah, the thrust into all of this for me was more, I needed to take care of this local and make sure I get out correct information from them. And on the other side of 00:37:00that coin, however, is that the Choirboy Program might have had a degree of militancy that was too much, because if you have elected offices and you have a group that's out there doing something that's supposed to be in tune with the elected office, oftentimes it was not.

DRUMMOND: Right.

KOVACS: And you'd that levels were head-to-head in conflict with each other.

DRUMMOND: Hm. Well, it was almost like that little grass roots group within the organization.

KOVACS: Yes.

DRUMMOND: I imagine there was a lot of conflict with that being vice president, um, because on one hand you've got to represent your people and you've got to represent the union and --

KOVACS: Yes.

DRUMMOND: -- you've got to maintain good working conditions with the FAA.

KOVACS: All the time.

DRUMMOND: And so maybe, I mean, that's how I see it. So --

KOVACS: Yeah. I felt much, I was more diplomatic than most. I truly believe that 00:38:00the only way was the right way and the right way was the legal way and the legal way was through the United States Congress. It's as simplistic as that.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: And at the time we had an opportunity to take almost everything that we wanted and get the rest within the few short years thereafter. And this is where the imbalance started to occur, where the people, the executive board were let's say on a more diplomatic level, like John Leyden being our president versus Bob Poli, who was, they were, they were like phosphorus and water. They're in continuous conflict. And I will probably go to my grave saying, "The Choirboy Program was the catalyst to trigger the coup, where John Leyden was basically ousted out of office."

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: Um, I don't know (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).

DRUMMOND: No, we'll get to that. (laughs)

KOVACS: Oh. Okay. But it was a good program insofar as finding out what do you want and what are you willing to do to get that?

DRUMMOND: And you were only doing that in -- in the Atlanta area? Or in a region?

KOVACS: I went to some, ah, I went to a couple towers in Alabama for a while, but like I couldn't, I just felt I couldn't maintain both that position and the vice president's level.

DRUMMOND: What kind of reactions did you get from folks? I guess, like not only the South, as we've mentioned earlier, more difficult to really get people together, to push for these changes. Like they want it, maybe, but they don't want to --

KOVACS: Well --

DRUMMOND: I'm sorry, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I know it's more difficult in the South. So, so what were some of the reactions and responses you got when you were a choirboy talking to folks in the South?

KOVACS: I think the, ah, the anti-unionism that was experience in the South and 00:40:00the southeast and the southwest, one of the advantages we had was that probably 90%, maybe even 91 or 92% of air traffic controllers that were in place at that time, prior to the strike, were military people. And those military people came from all over. So yes, you had 16 people at Savannah Tower, but 15 of them were from New York and California and Alaska. Um, the toughest sale was probably in trying to, I don't want to say persuade or convince, to realistically say, ah, "If this is what you want, are you prepared to go and do this? Because the consequences could be that," and when the FAA was really much more in tune with the real possibility that it wasn't a threat, that it was going to actually happen, that's when they really started to do a great job working the press, and that worked against us in the South. Um. I live in a place called 00:41:00Peachtree City, Georgia. I have some very good friends in there. Two doors down was the senior vice president for Delta for all of the flight attendants back then. And my neighborhood was a manage) involved in a very bad strike, back up in New York, who moved south, who walked into my house one day and looked at me in the face and he says, "Please don't do this. If anything happens I'm going to hold you accountable," and that was the kind of --

DRUMMOND: And that was before the strike, that was --

KOVACS: This was very close, very, very close to the strike date, you know, maybe four or five months.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: It got to a point -- I don't know how deep I should go, but you know there were two votes that were taken and the first vote failed.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: They just didn't have the numbers -- they being the National Executive Board. So it was kind of like the FAA saying, "Hey, how do we reduce the number of near misses?" (inaudible) we stop the program and they'll stop 00:42:00reporting. So the National of PATCO says, "Well, how are we going to make these numbers work? How can we crunch them?" oh, that's pretty simple. We'll eliminate people from data systems. We'll eliminate the possibility of supervisors plugging in for the people. Bring (We will eliminate them bringing) in the US military, something that PATCO never believed was going to happen, because there were two net errors, when the French air traffic controllers went on strike, so PATCO early, wrongly was convinced our government would not bring in military air traffic controllers. It's just not something you learn overnight. But you have to give credit where credit is due, because that's exactly what they did. So when they reduced the set of perimeters for the numbers and it reduced the number of people that we needed and we took the second count, that second count indicated that, you know, we were within 00:43:00striking range, that we had the numbers.

DRUMMOND: And when was that second strike taken? Or that second vote taken?

KOVACS: The second strike vote? Oh, I can't even remember, it had to be, ah --

DRUMMOND: Was it summer? Was it like --

KOVACS: It was in the summer. It was in, I think June. It might have been in June. I could get, go back and look at those dates.

DRUMMOND: So as all of this is going on, I believe at that time it was codified at the federal level, that employees of, federal employees could not strike.

KOVACS: Yes, we had --

DRUMMOND: So that was something that was kind of happening at the same time as well and I do believe that Bill Esrey, because I mentioned him earlier to you--

KOVACS: Yes.

DRUMMOND: And I do believe he, ah, worked on that.

KOVACS: Yes.

DRUMMOND: If not, was responsible for them.

KOVACS: Prior to being employed as a government employee, you sign an oath that you will not strike, conduct a slowdown, work stoppage of any kind and we all 00:44:00signed those oaths. One of the mistakes, I think, that PATCO made was trying to persuade to the membership that the strike was unconstitutional. There were some cases where things worked out in the other direction, but for us, that was a major obstacle, so you had people, and I'd say, "Traci, do you want to strike for what you're asking for, a $10,000 increase in pay?" and you say, "Yes I do, but I can't participate because I signed the oath and I signed that oath and I'm not going," so we had a small segment of people that used that. Other reasons were that who would have ever believed that a union president, Reagan of the Actors Guild, would fire or dismantle, ha, destroy a union. That was a very bad mistake. Very, very bad mistake to make. Um, the 00:45:00other element was the one of sympathy. The American people are going to feel our pain, they know we have a stressful job. They're going to be with us. That was about a big negative, ah, that I could possibly, well, imagine. And then you also had tremendous peer pressure, where people get caught up in a movement and this ball gets rolling at a speed that it can't be stopped, slowed down. This is a true story. On Sunday night, August 2nd, prior to the strike, a gentleman by the name of Walt Denley who was a facility chief at the Atlanta Center, called my house and said to me, we're very close friends, very close friends, "Don, you have to stop this. Can you stop this?" and I started laughing and I says,"Do you think you're talking to Jimmy Hoffa?" I says,"I'm a 00:46:00president of a local," that man, Walt, (clears throat) called me every Christmas Eve for seven or eight years and we used to joke. He's say, "Don, this is Walt, how are you?" and I'd say, "You're giving up, aren't you? We're going back, aren't we?" and we both started laughing. (laughter) Never had such a good time. He's just a super human being. You know, super human being.

DRUMMOND: Yeah. So I want to go back to a few things you've mentioned.

KOVACS: OK.

DRUMMOND: When did PATCO start talking to Reagan? When did Reagan start voicing his support for PATCO?

KOVACS: Well, I think with, ah, that was --

DRUMMOND: He was running.

KOVACS: Yes.

DRUMMOND: And he had been elected in '80 and started in '81.

KOVACS: Yes.

DRUMMOND: OK.

KOVACS: Yes. So um, the feelers were out there for quite sometime, ahead of time. We were one of the few organized organi-, union organizations that, ah, traditionally come from a Democratic family and you're trying to tell your 00:47:00workforce of three, 13,000 to vote Republican for a president. We have a letter that I have a copy of, I'm sure you've seen it, OK. I think, again, in my humble opinion, if I would have been sitting in the porcelain palace of PATCO in Washington, I would not have put that much faith in that letter. Because when you have push and shove type of situation, um, Ronald Reagan (clears throat) did not have any choice but to do what he did, and there was a lot of different reasons for that. Anwar Sadat was in Washington. His cabinet said, "If you don't do this internationally and globally, you are going to appear weak and weak you will be," Ed Meese, who was the attorney general then, really was the tip of the spear for saying, "Let's do this now. It is inevitable. We either do it now or we're going to do it later, but it's going to happen," in 00:48:00other words, PATCO's going to strike and we're going to have to fire them. Um -- But Reagan was our only choice. It was our only hope. If Jimmy Carter would have been in office, this would, this would -- that would have been a cakewalk. Because Jimmy Carter would have simply said, "I fold," and it wasn't that way.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: I'm getting long-winded here.

DRUMMOND: No. That's, that's, no, this, it's very interesting. Take a drink of water while I formulate my next question.

KOVACS: Go ahead. Take the (laughs) --

DRUMMOND: Um, so well then, since you brought Carter up, what was the relationship like with the federal government under Carter?

KOVACS: Well you know, we, like any federal employee, we were so far away from the head of the horse that we really don't know. I think where our problems began was in the relationship that we had with the FAA. It was very unique. 00:49:00Being an air traffic controller means that you go to work and you plug into your sector and you do your job. Nobody tells you how to do it. You do it. And there's pride in doing it not just right, but in doing it good. Everybody's going to make a mistake because as humans we're going to do that and ah, the first level, line of team supervisors, ah, were typically people that were promoted within. But there were typically people that were nonunion at the time. That created friction. Um, and just overall that air traffic controllers had this degree of arrogance and this pompous attitude that were probably second to none and that was another element that truly did us in. No one is (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). (indispensable)

DRUMMOND: It's a very important job.

KOVACS: Every job is important. And I can tell you this.

DRUMMOND: But air traffic controllers get tubes full human beings on and off the ground.

KOVACS: Yes.

DRUMMOND: People always want to give pilots the credit and I say, no, I mean, pilots are important. I feel like the work you guys do is very important.

KOVACS: It's very important. But everybody, everyone's job is important. One thing I learned about is that PATCO used stress as an element to promote more money, shorter workweek, things like that and we did have a lot of stress. But it was called the "high anxiety, short-term stress," people have stress every day and stress is a perceived element. People that are flipping hamburgers are under stress and it's how he or she, do they respond or do they react to that stress.

DRUMMOND: You called it high?

KOVACS: High anxiety, short-term.

DRUMMOND: High anxiety, short-term.

KOVACS: So you had --

DRUMMOND: But there were other factors than that. There must have been. It couldn't have just been the stress.

KOVACS: In so far as?

DRUMMOND: Well, I heard that there were irregular scheduling.

KOVACS: Oh yes, yeah. There's no doubt.(clears throat) You know?

DRUMMOND: I mean, not having a routine can contribute to that.

KOVACS: I'll try a different way. The people who were air traffic controllers thrived on stress. That stress was a fix. It was an adrenaline rush to the 12th degree. If someone didn't thrive on it, they would never make it. Now over a short period of time that stress can start to take its toll and when I was working the shift works, what was, ah, probably the most det -- detrimental thing to our health, not stress, it was the shift work. So as an example, if I had Saturday and Sunday as my days off, I had to work five days, Monday I'd go in at 4:00 in the afternoon and work till midnight. Tuesday I would go in a 3:00 00:52:00in the afternoon and work till 11:00. Wednesday I would go in at noon and work until 8:00. Thursday I'd go in at 6:30 in the morning, get off at 2:30, report back to work 10:30 Thursday night to work the midnight shift. And you did that every day of every week of every month of every year. And we'd try different things to having rotating days off or what they called a 2/2/1 shift. So you could take this, is it the carcadium rhythm, circadian rhythm where your body is --

DRUMMOND: Circadian.

KOVACS: It's something like that.

DRUMMOND: Yeah.

KOVACS: Circadian. You know, if you could eat and sleep every day at the same time, you'd probably put five if not 10 years on your life. That's been known for a long time. But, ah, the shift work was a killer for us. It took its toll. I mean, there were times when everybody would come into work and there's 00:53:00different positions, you know, you might be working the radar, which definitely is the most stressful, or it might be the assistant to the radar position or someone might be plugged in, called a "tracker" that's, you have so many airplanes, this individual is trying to even coordinate what's going on there and you could look at someone on the radar that barely had his or her eyes open and you might lean over and say, "Hey, why don't you come here and plug here. Let me do this for a while," and that's how we got by. And there, there was a degree of animosity and friction that developed because of that shift work. It was like, here we are doing a tough job, under some stress and we're working these shifts, you've got to get us a break. Give us some kind of relief in some way. That's why I wanted that shorter workweek. We really, really I believe the only country in the world working a 40-hour workweek in 00:54:001981, I'm pretty sure that's (inaudible).

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: Everybody else had reduced workweeks.

DRUMMOND: Would you say the stress caused from this, because they called it the "high anxiety, short term" --

KOVACS: I called it the "high anxiety, short term," and I'd say, go ahead.

DRUMMOND: But it seems to me that, that would be so much more of a, you know, because you mentioned like a, like a burger, like a, like a, you know, line cook or something, that they would have, you know, slightly elevated levels of stress at sometimes, but it's, it's more even and more regular and they do have regular shifts and, and, and versus what must have been a pretty hard punch of stress, right, when you're working this, um, you know, as an air traffic controller and, and maybe -- because my understanding is that there were also a lot of maybe alcohol abuse and stuff that came along with like trying to moderate that stress. I mean, did you, did you, not you personally, but did you 00:55:00see that?

KOVACS: Yeah, you could, we could. Um. There was no doubt that a lot of that part of the workforce, maybe not a lot, but there were some that, um, drank too much or couldn't sleep. Ah, sleep deprivation was something that had been studied so many times I can't even count. Even the Rowe Study back in I think the '70s or the late '60s, ah, when you deprive a human being of sleep, they will lose all their facilities -- speech, speed, um, short-term thinking, long-term thinking and that added into the stress and I think people, some people when they got off their shift, it was quite common to say, "Hey, I'll meet you down at Joe's and we'll have a couple beers," or something. And I think if you probably took that to the extreme, you know, it 00:56:00created a lot of stress at home, I know because a controller would come home, maybe still being pumped up from the workday and his wife or her husband had a different kind of day and maybe, ah, your spouse wants to talk about something. And I can remember myself looking at my wife and she'd tell you this to be so true, I'd get home and say, "I don't want to make any decisions. You want to go out to eat? Tell me where we're going,"

DRUMMOND: Hmm.

KOVACS: Things like that. Um. But yeah, there was the stress and the drinking and the sleep deprivation was not, was not good for the workforce. And back during the strike, you couldn't even retire in good health. I mean, that was a known fact. It just, just didn't happen, you know, that period of time and that stress took its toll. It simply took its toll.

DRUMMOND: We have a lot of the medical records that were kept in the national 00:57:00office. Um, we didn't digitize those, but I mean it's there and we have several boxes of them is there. And by all the stuff you've talked about is there.

KOVACS: You always had the -- everybody almost always had high blood pressure. That was (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).

DRUMMOND: And I'm sure there were a lot of smokers, too.

KOVACS: A lot of smokers, thank god they --

DRUMMOND: Did you all smoke in the tower?

KOVACS: No, in a -- when I hired on in December of '69, up until 19, I want to say '75, we smoked in the facilities. In fact, I think we smoked up until maybe '77 and then they finally, ah, said, "No smoking," which was a good thing. You just cannot do that in this controlled environment and you know, it was bad enough that you had the group of a dozen or 14 or 15 people and if you got sick, I got sick and we got sick, everybody got sick, so it was common. Two or three times a year I'd come down with an upper respiratory infection. Every other year I usually have walking pneumonia and it was, you know, it was just a 00:58:00bad working environment.

DRUMMOND: So those were the conditions you were working under.

KOVACS: Right.

DRUMMOND: You wanted better pay and better benefits.

KOVACS: Right.

DRUMMOND: You have Reagan making promises that he ends up not keeping.

KOVACS: I think it was seen that way for the most part. Ah, but to the best of my knowledge, I do not believe there were any internal, behind the shadow, exchange of dialogue with Reagan with the exception of Atwater. I don't, I don't think it happened and --

DRUMMOND: But it was this very superficial --

KOVACS: In my opinion --

DRUMMOND: -- support.

KOVACS: It was.

DRUMMOND: Okay.

KOVACS: And I can remember going to Washington and saying, "Please don't tell me you're relying on this letter," it's a mistake. You know.

DRUMMOND: Hm. Um. So at the same time you have Poli, versus Leyden.

KOVACS: Right.

DRUMMOND: So can you talk a little bit about those two personalities and then how they, um, sort of --

KOVACS: Yeah, yeah.

DRUMMOND: -- are part of this, you know, we're getting up to the strike, right?

KOVACS: Right.

DRUMMOND: So I'm trying to like get all the different --

KOVACS: Gotcha.

DRUMMOND: Perspectives like getting to August 3rd.

KOVACS: Gotcha.

DRUMMOND: In 1981. So, so let's talk about them being in charge and, and sort of their dynamic and how that maybe sort of helped get closer to that day.

KOVACS: When John, ah, Leyden became president, ah, John was always a very diplomatic type of individual. And he felt in his heart and his soul that the way to get what we wanted was slow, focused and concised and we need everybody's support, not just somebody's support. We need everybody has got to be willing to jump in and do this, if we're going to really do this. 01:00:00Quickly, over a period of time, um, Bob, being the facility president in Cleveland, having a very strong local, ah, was not as smooth and as fluid or as diplomatic, again, in my humble opinion, because Bob and I were close friends. And you had regional vice presidents, some that were diplomatic and wanted to pursue legislation, most were not. Most were, put the bullet in the gun and cock the trigger and let's do this. Mike Rock, you know, the founder and organizer, um, and people like Meyer, they, I think they believed the day before the strike it wasn't going to work. I'll go to my grave believing that Mike Rock 01:01:00personally did not believe that we were going to win. And ah, so Bob, being the other side of this coin and John being the flip side, felt that, um, he's getting lazy. It's getting too easy. He keeps saying, "This is all we're going to get, we just need to do this, it's worked for us before. There's too many of us," quote/unquote, Bob Poli, "There's no chance in hell of Reagan firing us. We would, Halley's Comet would hit the planet first," something close to that effect. And that scared me at that point in time because it was like I was saying, "You can get this ball moving and it can gain speed, at light speed, and you almost can't slow it down, let alone stop it." So there was what I called a "coup" where the executive board, some of the 01:02:00members got together and said, "John needs to go and Bob needs to replace him" and --

DRUMMOND: And was maybe that helped along a little by the Choirboys? Or were they (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) enough?

KOVACS: No doubt about it.

DRUMMOND: OK.

KOVACS: I'm glad you brought that up. There is, there is a, like I said earlier, that segment of the organization, the Choirboys, most of them --

DRUMMOND: Because they weren't an official --

KOVACS: They served in no official capacity whatsoever and that bothered me, ah, really from the get go. I just, I just felt if you had strong leadership at every level, Atlanta Center, where there's 400 people or Savannah Tower where there's 16 people and there are good facility reps and they're honest and they're trustworthy and that's why they got voted into office. This is what we need to do. It's just like the Senate, it's just like the Congress. 01:03:00We're not ever all going to agree. But the moment you throw into this mix a component that is an agitating component and instead of sharing options, or promoting options, kind of different. I think. And you have the Choirboys definitely were in the background, in the shadows and they together with some of the components of the executive board, the regional VPs definitely, in my opinion, did John in. I think that John Leyden would have remained the president. I don't believe we would have ever gone on strike and I believe that, ah, we'd have probably got everything we asked for. Not just most.

DRUMMOND: Right, everything.

KOVACS: Everything.

DRUMMOND: Well and, and, and so it's widely held that it was a coup that Poli went in and sort of --

KOVACS: Yeah, they knew, they, I think they, maybe "coup" is not the right 01:04:00word. I typically use that but ah, when -- when you have, um, a group of people, whether it's Congress, the Senate or the union or the Boy Scouts or the Girl Scouts, when you have this group of people and they're supposed to be this degree of trust and all of the sudden you have people pulling out and in the background, are in conflict, those people probably need to resign or move out of the way. That's not, that's usually not a good way to do things and in this case, it proved more than correct. One of the things that did us in, I think, this degree of arrogance that the controllers had was that, "they can't fire all of us," that was a mistake. So they used these elements. Halley's Comet will hit first. Reagan will never fire, all, never. PATCO really thought that, 01:05:00we knew that their take, we would take some hits, consequences. We suspected maybe 30 to 40 people being terminated, all the PATCO leaders and it would filter down to facility reps. But we had a treasure chest stuck away that had enough to cover us, you know.

DRUMMOND: (laughs) Sorry. I don't mean to laugh because it's not funny but, but just in reference back.

KOVACS: No it isn't. I, I can tell you, looking back, there's a lot of humor in all of this. It's just, you know, you either laugh or you cry.

DRUMMOND: What was the rank and file mood kind of leading up this? Um, like the rank and file membership, were they nervous about their jobs? Were they, um, ready to, you know, because I'm sure some people had been agitated enough by the, by the, um, Choirboys, they were like hankering for some kind of fight. But then you probably had a lot of folks who were really on the more conservative 01:06:00end of things. Or like respecting that they signed an agreement that they would not go on strike. So what was the sort of rank and file filling, feeling (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)?

KOVACS: Everything you just said. (laughs)

DRUMMOND: Oh no, but, but like when you talked to people --

KOVACS: Yeah.

DRUMMOND: Like what were their concerns? I mean, you were president at this point, right?

KOVACS: I had --

DRUMMOND: So that people had to have come to you with --

KOVACS: Yeah.

DRUMMOND: With, you know, like you know, like a variety of points of view about it. So what were you hearing from folks in your (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)?

KOVACS: Well, there was definitely a small segment that were absolutely scared to death and I think if anyone said they weren't, they weren't being truthful with themselves. Because there was definitely the possibility of losing the job, that all of us loved. We didn't do it because we had to, we do it, we did it because we loved it. So you had small, um, splintering groups that were like, "I don't know if I can do this now, I told you [inaudible] I don't 01:07:00know going to do this, what should I do?" and can remember, it might have been a week or two weeks prior to the strike at the airport Sheraton having a meeting and standing up there with, ah, some of the people from Atlanta Tower and both the center and the tower people are there and I can remember saying, "It's okay if you don't do this, it's okay. We will see you when you get back. Discuss this, understand the consequences of this and it's okay," I said it twice. And that, very few people notice but there was movement to actually try to impeach me for saying that. Because I just felt that we don't want to cram this down your throat. Um, you have to do what's best for you and it's okay. 01:08:00So I wasn't really one of these people who would call a nonunion member a "scab", although I made a mistake one day during an Unfair Labor Practice and did, but I regret that. Because um, I just felt that if it didn't work out, I don't know if I'd ever even be able to live with myself. And I just, I didn't feel good about the coup. I didn't feel good about them changing the perimeters, the numbers. Didn't feel good about that. Five days before the strike I was, I met up here at the airport, a little restaurant, with the facility president from the tower and 16 Air Force air traffic controllers walked in. And we sat there for the next three hours listening. I went home and called Dave Siegel the regional --

DRUMMOND: What were they saying?

KOVACS: They were talking about who's going to train who and how they're going go about training in the center and the tower.

DRUMMOND: So you already --

KOVACS: I already knew it.

DRUMMOND: You knew there was a point, like you already sort of saw it happen. Because I've never heard this from anyone.

KOVACS: Well, it's the truth. I'll go to my -- Hey, it did happen and I called Dave Siegel and I said --

DRUMMOND: Who was Dave Siegelfor those who don't --

KOVACS: Regional vice president.

DRUMMOND: OK.

KOVACS: For the southern region, I says,"I'm up here with Mike Coe and let me tell you what we're listening to. There are 16 Air Force, ah, air traffic controllers and they are talking about going into the tower and the center and more are coming," he says, "Don't worry about it, it's not going to happen," I says, "What's your confidence factor?" "Don, it's not going to happen," that is a true story. So even, there were so many signals that were, what's the old saying? Sometimes you can't see the forest through the trees.

DRUMMOND: For the trees.

KOVACS: It's too close to you to see it.

DRUMMOND: Yeah.

KOVACS: And probably didn't want to believe it. Because of those mid airs when France went out on strike, but I just didn't have a good feeling. You know. If you look back and take all these pieces to this puzzle and start, oh, we changed the numbers. Oh, we did this. Now you get a picture and to me, that picture 01:10:00didn't look good and that's why I said what I said. And that was tough to handle because there were really some, some militants and ah, ah, the gentleman that I replaced, Tim Benicosa was the facility rep, he passed away a few years ago, but um, he and I didn't really see eye to eye. I was, I love people, I love talk and I love negotiating, everything is a compromise in your life, everything. When you have a lack of communication and you have two or more parties that aren't willing to compromise, that spells trouble.

DRUMMOND: Hmm.

KOVACS: Serious trouble. And ah, and I didn't like the way the direction was, you know, there's a better way to handle this. Newt Gingrich was a very, very 01:11:00strong supporter. We have, had good people in the Senate and Congress that were saying, "Just lay low, just lay low. You're going to get everything you wanted plus more."

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm. And that was widely known, I mean that wasn't just not to a few people.

KOVACS: Yeah. Yeah.

DRUMMOND: Wasn't a committee formed about air traffic control that Newt Gingrich was part of?

KOVACS: Um, we formed an Aviation Advisory Committee.

DRUMMOND: Okay.

KOVACS: That I served on for two years and --

DRUMMOND: Okay.

KOVACS: We had people who --

DRUMMOND: And talk about the purpose of that committee.

KOVACS: The purpose of, yeah.

DRUMMOND: I know we're jumping around a lot --

KOVACS: Oh no, that's OK.

DRUMMOND: We're all, we're all, I'm just trying to (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) --

KOVACS: We're all family here, Traci --

DRUMMOND: Yes, yeah, I'm just trying to build (inaudible).

KOVACS: So um, you know, Newt Gingrich's first attempt at the Congress was not a good one and he needed, ah, more of everything and one was labor. And we saw a 01:12:00young guy from, um, you know, West Carrollton saying to ourselves, "He could be an asset, so we're going to back him," and ah, one of the very first things that he promised to do and I made the request along with two other people from Atlanta Tower was to review certain procedures and those procedures, um, included everybody that got in an airplane, it didn't have to be Delta or Airtran or Eastern. So Newt assembled this little committee of people and I think in the Open Mike there's a picture of Newt sitting, Newt and I and three or four other people at our very first meeting. And the purpose of the committee was to take a look at what's happening in Newt's district, the 6th District and are there more effective and efficient ways, safer ways to do things? And I don't remember some of the ideas that we had, but ah, it was good. The 01:13:00committee was a good idea. A very good idea.

DRUMMOND: Okay. Um. Public support. What kind of, like when you had the sickouts and other actions, how did the public respond to those?

KOVACS: Initially, ah, the response was in our favor. I can feel your pain. They were seeing us on TV or listening to it or reading it. I can understand, yeah, it's a high stressful job. Um, I appreciate what you do. But the minute you leave the house and take your ticket to go to the airport and they find out, hey, there is no plane. Why? Oh, the air traffic controllers sicked out or slowdown. That took about 72 hours, for the attitude to change. Somebody did a study that I'm going to say took three or four days before, which is like this, 180 degrees about face. We love you guys. We hate you guys. (laughs) So it 01:14:00could change at the drop of a hat. The other thing was that here we are, government drones, as we called them back then, making not just good money, very good money, working a straight 40-hour workweek. Only 40 hours. And when I started, you might work 30 to 40 minutes on and you'd probably have 60 to 70 minutes off. So now you've gone from eight hours to three and a half. And that quickly changed. And once the public was made aware of, well, they're really not working 40 hours and they want how much, ten thou-, they want $10,000? I only make 14. (laughs) I don't know if that makes any --

DRUMMOND: Yeah.

KOVACS: --any sense. The sympathy quickly changed.

DRUMMOND: Okay.

KOVACS: Very, very few, after the strike, were with us.

DRUMMOND: We have the hate mail.

KOVACS: Yeah.

DRUMMOND: I don't know if you ran across any of it.

KOVACS: Nope.

DRUMMOND: But we've got hate mail.

KOVACS: Oh, do you really? Yeah, I'm sure. And looking back, what we did I truly believe was wrong. Um, but it was inevitable and the consequences were staggering. I mean, most people did not ever survive after the strike -- financially, emotionally, psychologically. They simply didn't. My fraternal twin brother, who I worked my cards in Washington to get hired as a controller in Muskegon, Michigan with zero experience, went out on strike. He didn't want to go, but I said, "Well, I got you here, you've got to stay with me," and he ended up being terminated and never went back. Um, so that's tough to live 01:16:00with, every now and then. And the consequences for about 40 of us were quite serious, I mean, the government, am I getting too longwinded?

DRUMMOND: Well, I think that you're kind of ahead --

KOVACS: Okay.

DRUMMOND: Because that's after the strike.

KOVACS: Yeah, Okay.

DRUMMOND: So I want to ask you about one more thing and then we can talk about --

KOVACS: OK.

DRUMMOND: August 3rd.

KOVACS: Ooh.

DRUMMOND: Um. Would you talk, what kind of support were you getting from other unions?

KOVACS: Initially it was great support.

DRUMMOND: Like as they knew that you were talking about striking and --

KOVACS: They --

DRUMMOND: And okay, and what kind of unions were they?

KOVACS: Well, you could have like the AFLCIO or MEBA.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: Marine Engineers' Beneficial Association.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: That were two very strong elements in our makeup, ah, financial and otherwise. But when it came down to the nitty gritty of broaching let's ALPA, the air line pilot's union and saying, "Are you going to fly?" or the 01:17:00bakery truck, "Are you going to cross our picket line, deliver that loaf of bread?"

DRUMMOND: Well, the machinists, who were in all the planes --

KOVACS: Yes.

DRUMMOND: And had maybe some flight attendants and baggage handlers and --

KOVACS: Yeah. So we, there were some sympathy along those lines but for the most part, when it really became serious it was not, I'm going to still fly the airplane and I'm going to still go to work. I'm still with you, my heart's with you, but I've got to do what I've got to do.

DRUMMOND: What about other public unions, other government unions? Did you all hear from -- ?

KOVACS: Well, the teachers' organization, ah, the post office were definitely on our side. One of the things I think hurt us, PATCO being us, was that when the government looked at all this, the postal union was right behind us, poised to do the same thing. What were the teachers going to do? Stop teaching? No teachers, no mail, no transportation. You know, we have to cut the head of the 01:18:00snake off here, now, today. (laughs)

DRUMMOND: Well, do you think because there were fewer air traffic controllers than teachers or postal workers, that you all were the easiest to replace and the, I mean do you think that was part of the -- what happened?

KOVACS: No. I truly believe, I've got to give the government and the FAA credit for doing and handling everything in the way they did. There were some very, very close calls that I don't think were ever made public, that were hidden, deep. (clears throat)

DRUMMOND: Close calls how?

KOVACS: With airplanes.

DRUMMOND: Okay.

KOVACS: Now the government, the FAA came out and testified that, ah, there were no unsafe conditions, but that's just a, the furthest thing from the truth and if one digs deep enough one will find what I'm talking about. (laughs) I think -- well, I know this. I know that MEBA and the AFL-CIO went to Bob Poli and 01:19:00said, "Don't do this."

DRUMMOND: Mm.

KOVACS: "Don't do this because you're not going to win. Don't do this because our people are telling us and we're here telling you, they are prepared to fire every single participating employee."

DRUMMOND: Hm.

KOVACS: And it was almost like, um, Bob, at that point in time, and some of the other regional VPs, even the Choirboys, there was that segment that was, "Let's do it, this is exciting," it's like, let's go drink the Kool-Aid with Jim Jones. Oh, they can't fire us all. If they do, I'll find something else. I hate this job. Now there were some that made out --

DRUMMOND: They'll never be blackballed. (laughter)

KOVACS: That was another one. Yeah. I have eliminated the word "never" from my vocabulary. Because after that happened, and to this day I'll say, "Never ever say the word 'never', ever." (laughs)

DRUMMOND: Okay. So I think we're ready to talk about August 3rd.

KOVACS: Okay.

DRUMMOND: How did everyone get the news? Like did you all get a, like were there, because I know we've got some of the tapes of the calls, that people could call into the center and listen to the recorded messages --

KOVACS: Right, right.

DRUMMOND: And things like that. So um, were those sort of getting you ready to strike on August 3rd? Or, or, and then it would I guess go to the local president and who would then tell --

KOVACS: Yeah, it would filter down from the executive board down to the regional vice president down to facility reps and the Choirboys, that the numbers were good, we're good to go and we're going with the strike plan and that was to take everybody that was not assigned a shift and have them meet at certain 01:21:00places and we would try to stay unified, ah, until they capitulated. Which they never did. So the first few hours there was a high degree of excitement about it. Yeah, I'm glad we're doing this. They can't survive it. It's all over the TV, that's all you're hearing on the radio, every newspaper, it's front-page stuff about it. On day three, you know, actually when Rea -- when Ronald Reagan delivered that infamous Rose Garden speech --

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: That changed the attitude of a lot of people and really including me, and a lot of people came in confidence and said, "What do you think?" and I'd say, "I've never seen a president of the United States stand up and say what he just said," now you can have cabinet members that can do that, but this is the president.

DRUMMOND: Right. And for people that might not have been there --

KOVACS: Yeah.

DRUMMOND: Or know exactly what he said, can you sort of give us a summary of his 01:22:00statement? Now that would have been on the sixth, right? The third day.

KOVACS: You know, it, um, fundamentally he said, if these people, they're in violation of the oath that they took --

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: It's, ah -- it's against the law and if they do not return within 48 hours they will be immediately terminated. I think it's only two sentences deep. I mean, it was pretty much, "this is -- this is going to happen," now we briefed, we being people like MEBA facility reps, at meetings, anticipated this. We didn't anticipate the president on TV, but we anticipated somebody like Ed Meese or somebody else, you know, Drew Lewis getting up there and saying, "Yeah, you guys got to get back to work," and that -- when that, and when he got up there, it definitely changed a lot of minds and that's when we 01:23:00started seeing slippage or corrosion of our base and people trying to filter back and within that first 48 hours, I don't remember the exact number that we lost, but it wasn't very many.

DRUMMOND: Right.

KOVACS: And the government held extremely strong in that threshold of time, um, even for people that were on authorized vacation time or authorized sick leave were issued letters of termination. Because the Department of Justice wanted to make sure they crossed every "T" and dotted every "I", and they did a good job of that.

DRUMMOND: (inaudible)

KOVACS: So a few after that 48-hour period of time did get back those that were really sick, those that were on vacation and that --

DRUMMOND: And there were some folks that just didn't go out on strike.

KOVACS: And there were some that just didn't go out on strike and to this day are the best of my best friends.

DRUMMOND: Mm.

KOVACS: When I was rehiring, when we went back in, it wasn't, let me shake your hand, give me a hug, it's great to see you, it's been a long time.

DRUMMOND: Uh-huh, uh-huh. But you said there was excitement that first morning of the strike, that there was --

KOVACS: Well, I --

DRUMMOND: Please get a drink of water.

KOVACS: Oh, Okay.

DRUMMOND: Don't let me keep you from that. Now this is hard work.

KOVACS: I think, ah, again, I keep referring back to this degree of arrogance. And some pilots even happen to have a -- we're in the limelight, we're at the tip of the spear, hey, they're talking about us. One of the best things that people can do when they exchange dialogue is to say the other person's name, Traci or Don, that's very, it's a grasping, it's a bonding. Every time I say a name, and that's probably why I did so well in sales, but, and this happened to us as a group, an air traffic controller? Hey, that, that's me, that's us. I'm on the front page of the AJ -- JC, ABC News, look at 01:25:00this. This all, you know, we were caught up in that period of time, being, "Ah, when are we going back, Don? How soon?"

DRUMMOND: Well, so you were the public face of the strikers here in Atlanta.

KOVACS: Yes.

DRUMMOND: In all the, I mean I guess anyone trying to do an interview or any media contacts, they would all have to come through you. So what was that like? That must have been incredibly stressful on top of everything else.

KOVACS: Well, one thing that happened, um, we decided early that we would let the regional vice presidents try to front all the media stuff and in some cases that was not possible. We're fortunate here that Dave Siegel, the regional VP was here in College Park, so he handled most of the media stuff, whether it was about Atlanta Tower or Atlanta Center. I did, however, did some interviews and ah, there was one time when someone from the AJC, I believe his name was Ivan 01:26:00Koslov who was a writer, called and said, "We'd love to do an interview with you and your wife. Could we come out?" came out, sat there maybe an hour and a half, two hours and did an interview and the very next day and I wish I could still find this, this gentleman wrote something to the effect, "Well, I had an opportunity to speak with Don Kovacs, president of Local 101 and he had a beautiful pool and a manicured lawn and he wants a $10,000 raise," um, it's true and I said, "I'm sure that article exists someplace," (laughs) but ah, it was tough on my wife.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: Because my wife had not worked once we had our first child. She was a stay-at-home mom and that she would not have gone back to work after the strike, we would have probably lost everything like a lot of people did and she worked 01:27:00you, until just six years ago.

DRUMMOND: Was there a point in that short time following the start of the strike, where you just realized you weren't going to be able to protect anybody?

KOVACS: I don't believe I ever had that concern. I knew, I tried to sit down with my wife and say, "I'm probably going to be one of the 40, no doubt about it, but this is the money we have, this is where it's at. Everything's going to be fine. I'll do good wherever I go," um, and I guess deep down inside I also felt, even if they did terminate the local reps, after the heat dissipated, we'd probably get back. Some wouldn't, you know.

DRUMMOND: But what about protecting your membership, your local membership?

KOVACS: The only protection that I could deliver to the member was the 01:28:00protection that the regional vice president gave to me, that came from Bob Poli up in Washington. There was, I guess the answer was there was none. When you really, when I think about it, that's a great question is, there was none. It would be a different story if everybody was protected. But again, we fell back to that position because we truly believed they couldn't, they could not run the system with everybody gone. It was impossible.

DRUMMOND: So after Reagan made his Rose Garden announcement --

KOVACS: Mm-hmm.

DRUMMOND: What were the plans? What, what was the word from -- ?

KOVACS: Well, the plans were that there was movement in the background, you know, there's closed-door meetings, they're going to capitulate on some of the items that we wanted or maybe meet us halfway. Um. We're going to be going 01:29:00back, you know, there are some senators, heavyweight senators that are involved and some congressional people, that we've just got to let things cool down a little bit. Ah, looking back, that exchange of dialogue was miniscule. I mean, there were some that said, I don't know, I think Ronald Reagan, I know on the, maybe every three or four hours, were having his people check in, "Are we doing okay? Is this safe? Are we going to be able to sustain this?" You know, it was, "Yes, sir, yes, sir, yes, sir, yes, sir," and I think what Bob Poli was trying to filter back down to us, um, it wasn't happening. I didn't have a strong feeling when AFL and MEBA said, "Do not do this," and it was like Bob Poli felt, I don't need you. I do not need you at this point in time.

DRUMMOND: I've heard it, I've heard the strike, or really just the relationship between Reagan and PATCO, or his administration and PATCO, as a game of chicken and nobody --

KOVACS: Yes. Nobody said it as good as, um, the author of Collision Course.

DRUMMOND: Joseph McCartin.

KOVACS: Joseph McCartin.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: Because that gentleman did, in my opinion, the finest job that I've ever seen, as far as saying, "This happened and why," and a lot of people really didn't understand, you know there is a degree of friction like a volcano beginning to erupt. And it was getting hotter every day. And it was going to pop. And there were reasons for that. Um, it's, again, if you can't communicate you can't negotiate. If you can't negotiate, you have both sides 01:31:00lose, there's no winner. Never any winner in a strike. Not that I know of.

DRUMMOND: Well, I guess --

KOVACS: Long-term benefits are good.

DRUMMOND: Yeah, that's true. Yeah.

KOVACS: I mean, you can go back and look at textile workers or mine workers

DRUMMOND: Mmm.

KOVACS: And stuff like that but -- one of the best ideas that somebody brought to bear, and you're probably going to laugh when I tell you this -- somebody had an idea. We're supposed to be professionals. We walking the picket line in shorts and tennis shoes and t-shirts and jeans and there's certain things being displayed that say, "You are not a professional."

DRUMMOND: I have seen some of the t-shirts.

KOVACS: And somebody said, "You know what we should do? We should get the FAA to let us wear uniforms, like a pilot's uniform," most of the membership laughed and scoffed at that. I said, "That is a fantastic idea," because even though you can't dress like you want to dress, if you go and you display 01:32:00this degree of professional, you're never going to see an attorney without a coat and tie on, even to see a pilot without his pilot uniform on, they're professionals, aren't they? How many plumbers or construction workers or, not that that's a bad occupation, wear a coat and tie? Answer, zero. And therefore people psychologically say, "He or she is a professional and they are not," all of that has impact. I, to this day swore that could have changed a lot of things. Public opinion, for one.

DRUMMOND: Yeah, yeah. So. Nobody goes back to work. And so what happened next? Did you just start getting the notices of termination? Is that, were they, and were they delivered -- like on a picket line or were they delivered to the 01:33:00office or to individuals' homes or?

KOVACS: They were delivered in all kind of places. Ah you know, some of the hotels we were meeting at, some of the homes. I kind of stayed in perpetual motion. Most of the facility reps purposely stayed in motion where we would not be forced to accept that temporary restraining order where the judge says, "You've got to send your people back," that TRO, that was the first, the first hurdle we had to jump. Once the TRO was delivered, then it really dynamically changed, not in our favor, by the way. And I think I got mine on a Sunday that was delivered by, I want to say it was Joe Tucker. He was a black guy from the FBI or Department of Justice and I had just come home very early that morning and my wife and I were having coffee and the doorbell rang and it was like 10 after seven in the morning. And my wife says, "Who could that 01:34:00be?" And I said, "Well, that's probably the Department of Justice delivering the temporary restraining order," and I said, "Why don't you walk out side and see who's out there?" and it was a green Chevy and I says, "Yeah, that's Joe Tucker all right," and I don't know if he was DOJ, but we ended up being good friends. And I can remember opening the door and he looked at me and he says, "Are you Donald Louis Kovacs?" I says, "I am," and he went just like this. (laughs) He had his coat on. He says, "Joe, Joseph Tucker," and I think it must have been, or maybe it was a federal marshal, it was so long ago. And he said, "Tuesday, 10:30, Grand Jury, be there," and he handed me the TRO. Oh, you know, at that point in time. So after that temporary restraining order, then it was, there was nothing we really could do. We, my membership or me or everybody that was on strike believed that PATCO National had everything in place. I got very concerned when a week later I'm downtown 01:35:00in an attorney's office and there's one criminal attorney and a civil attorney reading a temporary restraining order and every now and then he'd slip his glasses off, "And it says here on Page 16 that you did this. Did you do that?" and I looked at Dave, the regional vice I says "Did we do that?" he says, "Oh yeah, we did that, yeah, we did that," and he did that six or seven times and he says, "Do you know how serious this is?" and jokingly, right, I went, "Do we know? Yeah, we do," we didn't. We didn't. You know, we still didn't believe that they were going to come after us on first-degree felony charges. And that's, you know, that's where theywere, everything was headed.

DRUMMOND: Right. How did your rank and file membership react? Because I imagine shortly after you got your notice --

KOVACS: Again, we had briefed them. This is what's going to happen. They're going to force us into court. They're going to bring criminal and civil charges. Um, which they did. I forgot the claim. Every day was I want to say 01:36:00$1.7 million that's in there someplace, for PATCO National. Um, and the people knew they were getting their dismissal letters. So I'm sure everybody was concerned, but some of them were just, you know, crunch it up and throw it away and others, I'd get phone calls and "Are they going to fire us?" you know. And I'd say, "I hope not."

DRUMMOND: How long before you all, you all knew that everyone was fired?

KOVACS: Wow. I think there's people to this day that think they're going back.

DRUMMOND: Yeah?

KOVACS: Um, I think 30 days was the first threshold.

DRUMMOND: Early September.

KOVACS: Four weeks.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: You know. Ah, what's happening? Give us some information. What's happening on the congressional side? And the answer was, well, this congressman is doing that or this senator, she's trying to do this, be patient, be patient 01:37:00and um, and then at the 90th, you know, three months, that was like, a lot of people started looking for jobs then. You know. Three months. It was, we knew the system was running and whether or not it was safe, it was as safe as it could possibly be. The CFA would have never, PATCO would have never changed those numbers, it would have never happened.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm. So you -- you just mentioned that you were, you were getting some support from people trying to talk to people on your behalf and --

KOVACS: Yeah.

DRUMMOND: You know, within the government.

KOVACS: Yeah.

DRUMMOND: So who were some of the people doing that? Can you remember?

KOVACS: I want to say Congressman Oberman and um, I even believe that Kennedy had his hands in there at some point in time. There was at least 20, ah, that 01:38:00were, I'll say, quote/unquote "on our side," but it's very difficult, ah, it's just not one senator or congressman, it's going up against the FAA or PATCO. It's the president that did this, you know, and MEBA and the AFL-CIO was in there with their people, even though they were absolutely livid that Bob went forward with it. You know, because they really had a pretty decent friendship up until that point in time and financially, money was filtering into us.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: But when Bob didn't listen to them, it was pretty much over for us by then. And it slowly just died out. I mean, I truly thought a year, two years they'd give in. You know, we may not go back to the same facility, right.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: And they send you out to the west coast or Juneau, Alaska, (laughs) um, I don't know. It was pretty evident to me and pretty quick --

DRUMMOND: Yeah.

KOVACS: That, ah, if they, if the government could handle the system in 30 days, they could handle it in 30,000 days.

DRUMMOND: Right. So it -- so it took about 30 days for everything to really, um, get back to running speed, with getting the replacement --

KOVACS: Oh, what they did was that, they being the FAA, they systematically went in and sterilized and sanitized routes, a route being a street. Where this used to be a two-way street, it's one-way only from 2:00 to 7:00 in Atlanta. And by systematically, truly, ah, using flow control --

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: You know, used to be 20 planes could get in here, now we're going to 01:40:00put in nine. And slowly there would be 11 or 14 or 15 and that would give them time to bring in the replacements. I forgot, somebody told me they had over 170,000 people apply for the job in the first 24 hours. For our positions.

DRUMMOND: Really?

KOVACS: Yeah. Yeah.

DRUMMOND: Wow. What -- do you need to take a break?

KOVACS: No, I'm good. Aren't you? I'm fine.

DRUMMOND: You're good? Okay, Okay. All right. Um. Within that 30 days, maybe that's not the best way to start that question. How soon before NATCA was formed by the AFL, did people who told you, who were saying "don't do it, don't go on strike, don't do this," and then you went on strike, everybody gets fired. It took you guys you said about three months to really realize, we're not going to go back.

KOVACS: Right.

DRUMMOND: Um, but how long did it take for NATCA to --

KOVACS: Two years.

DRUMMOND: National Air Traffic Controllers Association. Um.

KOVACS: Two years, yeah.

DRUMMOND: Okay.

KOVACS: It took two years for that new workforce to say, "We need somebody. We need some type of -- " I don't want to use the word "protection," but they, I think, saw that, ah, what we did, they all truly felt it was wrong, but most of them put under that same situation --

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: I remember talking to the people from NATCA in (inaudible), you know, in, ah, Bill Clinton opened the doors and I was one of the few that went back. And they shared with me that they could tell right off the bat that the managers, ah, lower and middle and upper, were even more aggressive than before.

DRUMMOND: Mm.

KOVACS: And it didn't take them long. And that's kind of sad when you think about it, just two years. You know, typically, this isn't always true, Traci, but typically I think, and people would ask me this, why, why are there unions? My answer? When there's bad management or unfair management or unfair or unsafe practices. Unions just don't happen, like the Big Bang, they just don't happen. There's things that are catalysts, triggers that say, ah you know, we need help, we need to do this. Strength in numbers.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm. So even on the heels of the strike the government didn't hire those new folks and taking into account any of the stuff you guys had been asking for. And then it was a few years later that they had to give some --

KOVACS: Within a few years NATCA had incredible strength. They achieved things that we weren't even thought possible or viable. Ah --

DRUMMOND: Do you think the govern-, given what happened, the government was more willing to listen to them once they got organized?

KOVACS: Yes, yes, without question. Ah, the union was allowed to totally control and work the workforce. Assigned shifts, scheduling. They had an office. Um. They gained a lot and one was pay. I mean, when I retired, when I finally retired on February 2nd of '09 I think my base pay was $156,000. When I started my pay was $4800.

DRUMMOND: In the '70s.

KOVACS: In the '70s. And when I was fired in '76 I want to say the base pay was probably around 50. So that type of jump was just, you know, (clears throat) 01:44:00and the retirement system for any government employee is exceptional. Take your high three years.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: And give me 50% of that. They must have been crazy.

DRUMMOND: Yeah, yeah. Um. After 30 days, certainly any funds that had been set aside to help during the strike or to help end this situation or, or whatever, that money must have gone pretty quickly.

KOVACS: Ah, it didn't really go, it was seized.

DRUMMOND: Oh, OK, so the money, you're right.

KOVACS: So the government was --

DRUMMOND: You had to file bankruptcy, it was part of the seizure. That's right, that's right.

KOVACS: Yeah, yeah.

DRUMMOND: So what were you all able to do locally to try to get help for the local members that need, I mean, were there efforts to, locally, to sort of --

KOVACS: A lot of us went out to various locals. Ah, I'd go to the (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) other unions and say, "Can you help us out in any way?" 01:45:00or um, and they did what they could do, but there wasn't much there. There wasn't, we were a very well paid workforce. And to be paid that and to go on strike and say, "I need more," that doesn't sit well with a lot of people, be they union members or otherwise. That's, well, person's still going to get in a plane and fly and the baker's still going to cross the picket line to deliver bread to Kroger. It's not like it was in the '50s.

DRUMMOND: Right.

KOVACS: You know. Not like it was. So they, so the government seized the money. There was no money remaining at the local level. Um, the Department of Justice came down on us at light speed. The FAA was working the dismissal letters and 01:46:00then the Department of Justice were bringing the local reps in, ah, to face felony charges. Which are pretty scary when, you know, you're in court and hearing that kind of stuff. And a lot of us, ah, didn't remain completely unscathed. Most of the members had no civil or criminal charges brought and they could have easily. Any air carrier could have simply said, "You're paying me, even if it's only a dollar a month, you're going to pay me," but that didn't happen.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm

KOVACS: But ah, so we went into court. There were actually Atlanta and this is kind of important, Atlanta was considered, "the white underbelly of the big fish," I don't remember who said that. It might have been, who was the assistant, ah, district attorney for Atlanta that was a congressman? Barr, Bob Barr.

DRUMMOND: Bob Barr.

KOVACS: I think. Don't quote me on that one.

DRUMMOND: OK.

KOVACS: But it came from somebody. And they, the government felt, we're in the South, this is key to us. This is the weak area to us. The people on our side. We will attack here, 36 indictments. Um, and the other locals will see this and they'll simply fold. You know, people in Cleveland or Chicago or New York, they're still back in New Jersey, hey, whoo, whah, but not down here, you know.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: So ah, when we -- the final outcome was, ah, I think originally they wanted to sentence us to a year in prison at Maxwell and um, that was all finally where to down we --

DRUMMOND: And was that just sort of more upper level administrators and --

KOVACS: Yes. They..they took --

DRUMMOND: And other rank and -- because we're (inaudible) at 12,000 people.

KOVACS: Not the rank and file. Except, except Ron Elliott. Who was a Choirboy. And they went after Ron Elliott and I think two or three others, but they were from the tower. Um. You know, when you're, (laughs) when you're in war you never cross a bridge you might have to walk back over and ah, and I still know Ron very well and you just can't get in somebody's face and, and I'm trying to figure out how to say this, and continue to, um, bring in friction or things that you say now will come back to hurt you tomorrow, you know. And I, I don't want to sound like I'm bragging, but I just loved everybody. I considered nobody the enemy and that's why the chief called me for seven or eight years, you know, "Hey, if you don't want to go, that's okay, go back to work and we will meet you back here, everything will be A-OK," and um, I 01:49:00think I got, it was only a $500 fine, I had to do 40 hours community service.

DRUMMOND: OK.

KOVACS: And I did that at the Cerebral Palsy Center in Decatur making wooden toys for the kids.

DRUMMOND: Aw.

KOVACS: Then I was on probation a year and couldn't leave the Northern District of Georgia. Had a black probation officer, this I have to tell you because I know you'll enjoy hearing this. He knocked on the door and Wendy and I opened the door and my wife just started bawling, crying.

DRUMMOND: Aw.

KOVACS: Bawling. Shaking. He walked in. I don't even remember his name. And he gave her a big hug. And I bet you he stood there a minute. And he, when they separated he said, "I'm going to tell you two something," and he went like this, to my wife and he says, "If you two would not have participated in civil disobedience, you would not be able to vote, you wouldn't be able to smoke, and I'd still be at the back of the bus. This will pass." My wife, and I 01:50:00mean, and he remained good friends for a while, you know.

DRUMMOND: Yeah.

KOVACS: Putting everything at ease. This is something you've got to do, it's a hoop you've got to jump through, it'll be over before you know it.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: And it was really, what he said had a high, I'll never forget that. Because civil disobedience was the platform that PATCO National was working from.

DRUMMOND: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

KOVACS: Civil disobedience.

DRUMMOND: Um, and it, so that was sort of formally the things you had to do to satisfy your sentence or your --

KOVACS: Yeah, we all pleaded, ah, this is another great move by PATCO, so the, the attorneys decided, what we're going to do is we're going to, we'll settle for criminal contempt, which is a misdemeanor charge. There's a huge difference between felonies and misdemeanors, you know. Um, we're going to 01:51:00settle for that criminal contempt charge and this will be your sentencing. But we have to, we're going to enter a nolo contendere plea, nolo plea. Well, a nolo plea in a Federal District Court is a guilty plea. So (laughs) that didn't make a lot of sense to me. And when we met, when I took that TRO down and met these two attorneys, I just felt like, I don't know if they don't know what we're doing or we don't know what we're doing, does anybody know what we just did?

DRUMMOND: Right, right, (inaudible). (laughter) Well, what were the, what were the, um, consequences sort of maybe socially? You said you lived, like when your neighbor said, "Please don't do this," and so, so, yet did you feel it socially? Or did you have support from your, from your community?

KOVACS: There was support from our community. Friends will always be friends, always.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: Um, we live in an area down in Peachtree City in a cul-de-sac, we're one of the oldest, because we have people that are in their 90's and never left, one being the senior VP for Delta, we're good friends to this day. My next-door neighbor who walked in and said he'd hold me accountable for anything that happened, we remained good friends. It took a couple weeks, and ah, I can remember one time (clears throat) I was in the back of my house on my deck with a rope. And my neighbor, the one that had come over and said what he said, says, "Kovacs, what are you doing over there?" and I said, "I'm trying to figure out how many feet I need so I don't hit the ground," and he started laughing. It was a rope for some landscaping, you know. And we did okay. In the South, ah, there was a high degree of like, you want me to hire you? You 01:53:00were on strike?

DRUMMOND: Mm.

KOVACS: In Georgia? (laughs) Adios.

DRUMMOND: Right. But then that leads to a very good next question, which is when you realized you weren't getting your job back and you, you know, realized you would have to find another job, um, what did you look for, what did you find and were you able to do it concurrently with like serving your year of probation and stuff like that?

KOVACS: Ah, I started, ah, giving serious consideration to going to Canada or Australia, as a controller.

DRUMMOND: OK.

KOVACS: And some people did, some actually went to Europe. My dilemma was, I could not leave the Northern District of Georgia for the first year.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: Ah, I wanted to try to wrap something in with aviation and I went to Falcon Field, one of the local airports to maybe look at managing an airport and again, it was like, "You were fired by the president for striking and you want to manage my airport? I don't think so," so I did a lot of odd end jobs for 01:54:00a while. I was an employment consultant for about three months. I told a friend of mine, "This is the best place to go to look for a job. We're going to see them come across the table every day," the guy that owned this franchise hired us, um, and then, well, I applied to work, ah, as a fireman and passed the physical, but got blackballed.

DRUMMOND: Once they found out you were --

KOVACS: Yeah. Well, they knew, I admitted up front. And I think I was going to hire, a friend of mine actually did get hired. He was the team rep and an area rep for a while and that gentleman, his name is Scott Timbert, is one of the best breast surgeon cancers in the United States. He went to Emory after the strike. Something he always wanted to do.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm. Wow.

KOVACS: But I ended up, I fi --

DRUMMOND: But wait. Let me get back to the firefighters. They knew and you think that that's why they wouldn't hire you?

KOVACS: Yes.

DRUMMOND: Even though they are a union themselves?

KOVACS: Yes. Yeah, I think so.

DRUMMOND: OK.

KOVACS: I think so. I'm pretty sure.

DRUMMOND: But they're also one of those unions that I mean it's called like a friends' association.

KOVACS: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- fraternal order of --

DRUMMOND: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Yeah.

KOVACS: Whatever, whatever.

DRUMMOND: Yeah, OK.

KOVACS: It really wasn't a big deal.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: But you know, I did tell you, I was in sales at a company in Peachtree City selling pressure-sensitive labels for about three months. Then I went to work for a mechanical industrial supply company in Peachtree City, selling pipes, fittings and valves. Then I applied for a job with Raytheon. It was up in Chicago selling some pretty sophisticated electronic equipment. But I didn't get hired because I had no degree. I had nothing. I had a high school education.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: And then a friend called and said, "Hey, ah, there's a company called Pitney Bowes. Have you ever heard of them?" and I said, "No," "Well, they kind of rent postage meters," I said, "I'm in," (laughter) and I went to work and ended up by being in the top one percent for 18 01:56:00consecutive years. Went on every trip there was ever to go, won every prize that there was ever to win. And I can remember the branch manager saying to me, "I don't know how you got by the first three managers, but I can't hire you, you have no experience. You don't have a degree. You're selling pressure-sensitive labels. Why would I hire you?" And I said, "May I be blunt and honest?" and he says, "Please," this is true. "You can hire me because I just sold a strike to about 3200 federal employees and I made a lot of money and I'll do the same here. In fact, you hire me --"

DRUMMOND: Not strike, but make a lot of money.

KOVACS: "You hire me, just, you don't even have to pay me. If you don't think I've performed in my first three months, do what you need to do," that is a true story. And he said, "Start Monday, you start Monday."

DRUMMOND: Nice.

KOVACS: You know, because selling, every, all the certain sales, we just don't know.

DRUMMOND: It's all politics and follow transactions.

KOVACS: People like you and people trust you.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: If they have a problem and you have a solution, you are in. You're home free. And I felt I was a good communicator, good communicator and I like people and I believe in humor and you know, and that, and I was with some extremely talented people and I listened. And it was a difficult decision to make. Do I stay home after these almost 18 years, working out of the house, by the way, I only had to go downtown two or three times a month, or do I get rehired by the FAA? Because I'd been interviewed.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: And have to move to Memphis, Tennessee.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: And that was a, that was a tough decision.

DRUMMOND: Well, tell me more about your work with the company that hired you. Pitney?

KOVACS: Pitney Bowes.

DRUMMOND: Yeah. Like the day in/day out and --

KOVACS: Oh, it's really, I first went in and ah, their sales force consisted of mailing machines such as postage meters and scales and equipment that seals envelopes and they had a copying division. They sold copiers. I just happened to get in, in 1983, most people did not know what a fax machine was. Car dealers had them and attorneys had them. That was about it. And the phone simply rang off the hook. And you could do financially very, very well and day-to-day I went in and started out and almost door-to-door in a territory and worked my up and started to develop sizeable accounts like Georgia Power and Georgia Pacific, or a UPS or IBM. You're not talking six machines, you might be talking 26,000.

DRUMMOND: Right, right.

KOVACS: You know, stuff like -- or university.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: I can't even imagine how many fax machines in place. So that worked out very, very well for me. And I, I think I matured a great deal as far as my communicating skills were being able to read people, ah, just by what they do physically. Ah, he says yes but he really just told me no and I know that, you know, so ask him right now. It's either now or it's never. Stuff like that.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: And then the same neighbor that, ah, lived next to me, the one that I jokingly said, "I'm measuring to make sure I don't hit the ground," he said, "Hey, um, Vic is going back to work as a controller," I says, "Where?" Vic was in Atlanta. He says, "At the center in Hampton," I says "No, it's not true," that was not true. But it was true that Bill Clinton opened the doors and Vic was going to San Juan and I made some phone calls to Oklahoma City and to Washington and I said, "I'm going to reapply. I'm 02:00:00going to reapply and see if they rehire me."

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: Now why would they rehire, why would they rehire the president of a local?

DRUMMOND: Did you miss it?

KOVACS: Yeah.

DRUMMOND: Yeah?

KOVACS: Greatest job in the world.

DRUMMOND: OK.

KOVACS: Yeah. Yeah. Part of me died then. Um. Just the greatest job in the world. You didn't really report to anybody and ah, the camaraderie was great. And ah, you felt every day that you left that you did something, you really did something.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: You know.

DRUMMOND: And there was 18 years between the time you were fired and you went back.

KOVACS: Yeah. Just about. And that, (clears throat) it was the first time I ever felt what a black or a minority feels. For the first time I could understand 02:01:00people that for some unknown reason may not like you, want you for one specific reason, yeah. Because when I walked back in to Memphis Center, there were like, you're going to do this job starting at 52 ½? I have to retire when I'm 56. Y -- you're too old. There were some suits that were won based on age discrimination. Um, you're too old, you're too slow, you're too ugly, you're too (laughs) -- I'm being facetious here. But I did feel, I remember telling my wife, when I called her because my wife stayed in Peachtree City.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: And I, every weekend flew an experimental airplane that I built, 600 miles, back and forth, from Memphis. Telling my wife, I says, "I'm going to get back. I didn't burn any bridges. I have stuff in the works."

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: Figuring out three, what they call, "three and four and five-way swaps," there's a guy in Denver that wants to go to Hilo and a guy in Hilo wants to go to Cleveland, she wants to go to Atlanta, and I says "I'm going to get back," if I don't get back in three years, I'll resign and I'm going to go in sales.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: I know I can sell.

DRUMMOND: So you flew your own plane there every week.

KOVACS: Every, yeah, well, I had an apartment.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: I had an apartment and --

DRUMMOND: And you had to have an arrangement to park the plane?

KOVACS: I had a hangar.

DRUMMOND: You had a hangar.

KOVACS: I had a hangar. Charles Baker Hangar 20 miles up northeast of Memphis.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: So I'd work my five days and when the weather was good to fly I'd come home.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: I'd come home like a Friday afternoon and I'd leave on a Monday morning. Because I'd be going back to work at 4:00 in the afternoon.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: And that was an experience. But I met a lot of good friends.

DRUMMOND: So you did become a pilot.

KOVACS: I did. I did.

DRUMMOND: You did become -- that's something you (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) 18 years.

KOVACS: So you know what's so interesting, you know, so I want to be, I want 02:03:00to go to Annapolis, I failed the test. A year later I take the NAVCAD Naval cadets. Because I'd see these A4s and F4s and I said, "God, I'd love to fly one of those," and when I took that, I got off on a tangent, that test, this lieutenant came in and said, "Who's Kovacs?" and I says, "I am," he says, "You have scored one of the highest academic scores we've ever seen," I says, "I'm going to be in Pensacola three months," he says, "But I need to ask a personal question," and I says, "What is it?" He says, "You know the difference between a screwdriver and a wrench," and I said, "Sir," he says, "Your mechanical aptitude is so low we can't find a waiver, to a waiver for a waiver," it's a true story, it's in some of those notes. And when I took the first flight in my airplane, I looked over in that empty right seat when I was putting my 40 hours of test times in, I wish I had that lieutenant over in that right seat right now, after building it and it was beautiful. Anyway, I didn't mean to get off on a tangent.

DRUMMOND: No, no, no. I think that's a --

KOVACS: So at any rate, it was -- two years and 11 months that I was in Memphis and (clears throat) I walked down to the chief's office and I had worked out, Atlanta had not taken anyone back, zero.

DRUMMOND: Well, before you talk about that, you said that you had a lot of people in there that were giving you, you know, a hard time when you at, but like, once you started doing that work again, those people aside, what was that moment like for you?

KOVACS: It, ah, out of all the things I've ever done in my life, that would be the most difficult. Because you lose speed. You lose that focus and that continuity that you need to do that kind of job. But I was very fortunate on getting on a team with a team supervisor who was a controller in Miami that did 02:05:00not go out on strike and the day that I met him, his name was Ted Kyle, we went to the cafeteria and he says, "I want to put things, make things, or put things at ease for you," and I said, "How's that?" he says, "I didn't go out. I think I probably should have. But I'm going to do everything in my power, everything, to make sure that you make it," and there are others who met with team supervisors that said, "You might as well just give up," that is a true story. And he did and he put me with people that were tough, but to a degree were sympathetic.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: And the two people that were assigned to train me, I sat down with and I said to them, "If I do not make this, I'm holding you accountable," and they were like, "I can do this. You just tell me what you need me to do," and I did and I never lost my speed. But through the grace of God or something 02:06:00out there, when I was terminated in Atlanta I worked a certain area. That certain area butted up to Memphis Center. When I was rehired, the area that I got NATCA to put me in was the area that butted up with this air space. So half of what I needed to memorize was here.

DRUMMOND: You already had it.

KOVACS: It was here.

DRUMMOND: Yeah.

KOVACS: And do you know when I left Memphis and went back to Atlanta, guess where I went? The same area.

DRUMMOND: Really?

KOVACS: The same area. They interviewed 19 people that I knew that didn't go out and (clears throat) the, the facility manager told me, "If any one of these would have been a no vote, you wouldn't have got here," but I burned no bridge, you know.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: I have had nothing but windows of opportunity in my entire lifetime. Incredibly fortunate. Don't you think? (laughs)

DRUMMOND: Well, yes, yeah, and it's good to acknowledge this, it's good to recognize that. Wh -- had the technology changed so much when you went back or had the, or were there -- ?

KOVACS: A little bit. It was the same digitized radar. When I first started the radar screen was flat, you had a little piece of plastic that was called a "shrimp boat," we had a black grease marker, to write on the screens with and you'd put "Delta 123, San Francisco," everything else was here. Speed, climb rate, turn rate. Who's this traffic for? And then in 1976 they introduced the digitized radar where the radar screen was like this and it alphanumerically attached all the information. Here's Delta 1234, he's out 02:08:00at 12,220 feet going here and there, so that technology changed. And then over the years they introduced other computerized elements that would basically tell you when two airplanes were going to hit. It was either red, yellow or green and it worked. So soon they'll want, the next generation of air traffic controllers will not be air traffic controller. They're going to be managers and they're going to be someplace in the room looking at screens -- screens and that computer's going to say, "You need to intervene and do this or you need to intervene and do that," and it does that now. In fact, last month the FAA just said, "You know, you can just take the test, you don't need any experience, two years of college, we're hiring you."

DRUMMOND: Mm.

KOVACS: From the roster.

DRUMMOND: Hm. So it's the artificial intelligence, it's learning more and more about, or people are programming in how it can learn to recognize when there might be a potentially dangerous situation.

KOVACS: Yes, yes, you know. And one of the greatest things they did was, ah, we used to have what was called "raw radar" and it was just a blip off the radar and it would get bright and then it, it, you know, would lose its intensity. Then the antenna would sweep it and it would get bright and then they put transponders on airplanes that gave us a little defined kind of line on your radar. Then they attached the data screens. And then someone put what was called a "halo" which was a five-mile circle around this target and as long as you did not hit that halo with another halo, there would be no loss of separation.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: Now unfortunately I just found out a couple months ago, this is hard to believe, we used to have what we called "the snitch machine," it was a computer and if you had a deal, if you lost separation the computer knew it and you were relieved immediately. If you had three deals in a career, you were 02:10:00fired. If you had two back-to-back, you stand a good chance of being fired. They recently have removed all the computers from every facility in the United States. There are no more snitch machines. Now that tells me personally, they must be having a lot of close calls. Because how do you read -- why did they do that? So now if you're working and you run two airplanes together, it's just like, hey, you might get a call from Delta 123, ah you know, they need, probably pass with 400 feet, we needed a thousand, so, it's just scary.

DRUMMOND: How often had there been any air collisions?

KOVACS: Not a lot of mid-air collisions, but there was a lot of what we call "deals" or conflicts.

DRUMMOND: Deals. D-E-A-L.

KOVACS: D-E-A-L --

DRUMMOND: Okay.

KOVACS: Meant as a term for the lost separation, either vertically, laterally or longitudally. You needed so many miles from, from the antenna, you could use different distances at different altitudes. So if you had a deal or a conflict, ah, or a systems error, that meant that you did something that caused a loss of separation.

DRUMMOND: Okay.

KOVACS: Now why in the world would they remove that? Why would they ever do -- ?

DRUMMOND: That sounds terrifying. As a traveler. (laughs)

KOVACS: Terrifying. I don't know. I got off on a tangent. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry.

DRUMMOND: Yeah, no, no, no. Um. You know, and we still, though see, I guess you know, reports of the same kinds of things that have always happened where the air traffic controllers where they miss something or there's a deal or things like that and do you think that that's training? Do you think that that's 02:12:00distractions? Do you think that that's -- because there was one I remember, I saw it and they had completely forgotten to tell a pilot how to land at a major airport and somebody maybe said that they were too busy looking at the Internet and --

KOVACS: Could be. Yeah, there were --

DRUMMOND: It was something like that. And I mean, I mean, what do you, why is the margin for error still the same? Do you think it's be-, I'm sorry.

KOVACS: No, that's OK. I think it's --

DRUMMOND: Yeah. Just why do you think the mar-, like why hasn't the training changed enough or the equipment changed enough or the, the workplace rules and regula- like whatever changed, that they're still sort of the same, after all these years, margin of error?

KOVACS: (clears throat) The only time a city puts up a traffic light is when there was a stop sign there and how many people were killed, fatalities. 02:13:00There's, I forgot what the factors, it's called, in transportation it's the same way. So I think what happened was back in the '80s you had a workforce that was incredibly experienced and well-disciplined because of the military. That was that fundamental family platform.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: You know. And there was that degree of cohesiveness and everybody took a lot of pride in the job and very few people could do it. Over a period of time with the introduction of more sophisticated technologies, it took a lot of the decision-making process out of the brain and placed it on a computer and what you could do was you could fundamentally ask the computer, how will I keep them apart? And the answer might be, just to send them a thousand feet, or turn them 02:14:0015 degrees to the right for four and a half minutes. So the advanced technology I think has, ah, removed a lot of that thought process from a human being in playing a game. When they reduced, um, the requirements, ah, I'm trying to think of the word, you know, they degraded this, ah -- I can't think of the word, Traci. They're still having deals for a lot of reasons, one being if you have a 10-ounce glass, you can only put 10 ounces into it, that's it.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: It's physics. Well, airplanes are the same way. If you have a finite amount of air space, you can only put so many airplanes into it. Unless you reduce the criteria that you can miss them by.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: And that's what happened. And a lot of the deals are runway incursions and taxi way incursions.

DRUMMOND: Oh, really?

KOVACS: You know, by ground controllers were, there's just so many airplanes, only so many airplanes can go into a certain space.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: So I don't know if I really answered it the, the correct way. I think having a military background for that job was critically imperative.

DRUMMOND: The discipline that comes with something.

KOVACS: The discipline is, was critically imperative and still is, you know.

DRUMMOND: And you said that just with two years of college, people don't actually have to go through training --

KOVACS: I believe alls you, one needs is a two-year's associates degree and they can take the test --

DRUMMOND: Okay.

KOVACS: Off the FAA roster. As long as they have not reached the age of 31. Um. In it, you know, it's still, it's a very high-paying job. Ah, retirement is great. It's the shift work.

DRUMMOND: Uh-huh.

KOVACS: You know, it's --

DRUMMOND: So how had that changed, though, when you went back? Had NATCA sort of bargained for better shifts or -- ?

KOVACS: NATCA would, ah, would fundamentally take a vote at a facility and say, "What do you want to do? Do you want to work a week of midnights? Do you want to work a week of 8:00 to 4:00? Do you want to work two afternoon shifts and two day shifts and a midnight?" and each facility would be allowed on its own to adjust. And now I think what they're working here at the center is a 10-hour day, a four-day workweek, I think that's what they're doing. When -- when NATCA came about (clears throat) they yielded power that was 100 times what PATCO had. Which was good.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: They're the people down in the trenches that know how to safely, 02:17:00expeditiously move these airplanes. You know. And I think the other things is I never had gone to college and I sure wish I would have. I think it's something that I would have really, truly enjoyed. And my son is, every day when we talk, "Why don't you go over there to Clayton State or Georgia State?" I'm doing this and I'm doing that.

DRUMMOND: Well, there's that 62+ Program.

KOVACS: Well, well yeah.

DRUMMOND: You know what I'm talking about?

KOVACS: There's no cost to me.

DRUMMOND: Right.

KOVACS: Yeah. Yeah.

DRUMMOND: And Clayton State's a great school if you don't want to travel all the way up here.

KOVACS: Yeah. Maybe one of these days.

DRUMMOND: I could get you an internship with the Archives. (laughs)

KOVACS: That would be fun. (laughs)

DRUMMOND: Some days, not every day. Um, well, do you want to take a break or how you doing? Or you want go through it?

KOVACS: Whatever is good for you. I can keep going.

DRUMMOND: Okay.

KOVACS: I'm perfectly fine.

DRUMMOND: So you were in Memphis for almost not quite three years.

KOVACS: Yeah.

DRUMMOND: And then you got, you said there were 19 applicants for the job.

KOVACS: No, there were actually 19 people at Atlanta Center.

DRUMMOND: Oh, OK, OK.

KOVACS: So I had NATCA working in the background --

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: From Memphis, NATCA Memphis and NATCA Atlanta were exchanging information, hey, we've got the guy that was the president during your strike. How would they feel about that? And so they started putting things into motion, Atlanta saying, "Should we bring this guy back on board?" not just in the building, but in the same area. And by not burning any bridges, I knew people that were in some pretty high places that paved the way, made sure that doors stayed open for long enough for me to do things and it, ah, it was three weeks prior to having my three years, I walked in the chief of the Memphis Center I said, "Did you see the movie The Ten Commandments?" this is true, the guy was from Tripoli or from one of those Caribbean islands. He says, "Yeah, why? What's your point?" and I said, "Do you remember when Moses had his staff and it was like this?" and I had walked in with a cane that somebody had and I'm stamping it on the floor and he's, let my people go, he says, "Why are 02:19:00you here?" I said, "In three weeks it'll be three years. You can either release me --"

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: "Or I'm going to resign," and he says, "I'll let you go, but Atlanta will never take you," what he didn't know was Atlanta had already agreed.

DRUMMOND: Oh, really?

KOVACS: Because of those people --

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: That were still in place, you know. And that's, all this is true. I mean, it's hard to believe. It's like --

DRUMMOND: Yeah.

KOVACS: Let my, I'm going, with or without you, you can, I'm gonna go.

DRUMMOND: Yeah. Well, let me get that, you starting to talk about Atlanta made me think of when you sat down with your supervisors in Memphis and you were like, if I don't do well, it's your fault. So tell me about that training and, and getting back up to speed. I think in the, in the McCartin book, his first chapter is Getting the Picture, which is what you call when you are seeing what's going on and you're, the other person's leaving but you --

KOVACS: Gotcha.

DRUMMOND: You know what I'm talking about. So, so what was that like for you, that feeling of accomplishment, I guess, sort of getting back up to speed on everything?

KOVACS: Well, it was great because (clears throat) I wa -- I truly wanted to, ah, be able to do this. I felt that I still could do this. I felt that one of the ways that I could convince and share my thoughts with these people was to hold them accountable.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: I know I can do it, but can you?

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: You know. Which sounds crazy but it really did work because I think it intensified my degree of sincerity for getting back and it was extremely difficult to do. In my apartment on every wall there were maps and charts, everything. Because air traffic control is like a, a five-dimensional game of chess, you know. You're dodging them, moving, weaving, all this kind of stuff. And certain air space has peculiarities, if that's the word I'm looking for. 02:21:00You get to know the traps. Don't do this because if you do there's going to be a consequence in about 14 minutes over here. And ah, it was tough. I lived and breathed it. I did very little. The only thing I did on my own was after I got off work I'd go out to the hangar and I'd polish the wings of my airplane. Everybody used to make fun of me. "When are you going to fly it?" I said, "This weekend," ah, and then I'd go back to work. And ah, it was an uphill battle because just so many reasons. And I did lose speed, but I was not as much as some other people that went back. One of my best friends did not make it. And it was because of speed.

DRUMMOND: Oh.

KOVACS: And I can remember Tom, his instructor broached me and said, "Richard's the slowest person I've ever seen in my life," I said, "Look, he's my best friend. But I will testify to you that he's the only 02:22:00guy I know that's it's going to take him 90 minutes to watch 60 Minutes." (laughter) We still joke about that. (laughs) How slow is slow? Takes him 90 minutes to watch 60 Minutes. He'd take it from there.

DRUMMOND: Yeah. Oh. Poor guy. Um. So when you were going back and forth to Memphis, did your wife ever join you for a week or?

KOVACS: She flew up a couple times.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: Not in the airplane I built because she is a sweaty palms flier. When I was building the airplane, which I built in my basement in my house, I had called her one day to come downstairs. I had to have her sit in it as I lined up some things. And I turned around and there were beads of sweat --

DRUMMOND: Aw.

KOVACS: If you ever get to meet her, I'm sure she'll testify. The wheels aren't even on the landing gear and I says, "What's wrong?" she says, "I hate, I hate airplanes," but she eventually got in it. Now she came up to Memphis, I don't know, six, seven times, maybe eight times.

DRUMMOND: Okay.

KOVACS: We'd spend a week together, a weekend together. Ah, but we both decided, you know, we set a goal of three years. If I don't get back, I'm coming home.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: And I'm going to go into sales. It was tough on her.

DRUMMOND: I imagine, you being gone for the first time.

KOVACS: Oh, oh Jesus. Very (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).

DRUMMOND: You said after, after the PATCO strike she ended up getting a job. So did she, did that sort of start a career for her, or?

KOVACS: Yeah, it did. She ended up, ah, going to work for Arthur Anderson downtown and working for one of the senior managers.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: So she has to commute every day and downtown and going from no work to that, ah --

DRUMMOND: What is Arthur Anderson?

KOVACS: Arthur Anderson was an accounting firm.

DRUMMOND: OK.

KOVACS: And ah, the main goal of an employee is to get a partnership.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: And the partners can be incredible human beings, they're like robots to work for. Ah, and then after that she came and got a job in Peachtree City, ah, that she stayed 23 years with. You know. So. Wha -- without her going back 02:24:00work, I don't think we, we wouldn't have kept our house. You know.

DRUMMOND: And the kids were still in, probably middle school by then?

KOVACS: I'm sorry?

DRUMMOND: The kids were probably in middle school by then?

KOVACS: Yeah.

DRUMMOND: Or headed toward middle school, yeah.

KOVACS: Yeah.

DRUMMOND: But then you had your great homecoming in Atlanta. What year was that? What year did you make it back to Atlanta?

KOVACS: I came back, let's see here. July, it was August. Because I went back to train at the FAA Comma-, Air Traffic Controller Academy in Oklahoma. So it had to be in August. Because we were taking a July cruise and I wanted to take that cruise.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: What a selfish human being I am. (laughs) What can I tell you?

DRUMMOND: Um, um, so ah, why did you have to get back for school?

KOVACS: Well, they wanted to weed anybody out, um, you know, and I think the government really thought that nobody, very few are going to make this and very, very few, I don't know how many made it.

DRUMMOND: Were there a lot of folks there that had been fired, like as soon as --

KOVACS: In my class I think there were, ah, 14 of us.

DRUMMOND: OK.

KOVACS: I don't know how many were rehired all together. I think most people said, "I'm not going to go back, it's too hard, there's no way I can do that," and they're taking people that are 20 and you're going back at 52? For what it's worth, when I retired I was the oldest functioning air traffic controller in the United States. On the boards. Because everybody else had to leave. And when I finally retired, I told the chief that I wanted to retire on February 2nd, it was a very important day and he says, "Why? You're going to screw up, you're going to lose money, it's, it's, you should be doing this 02:26:00at the end of a pay period," and I said, "No, you don't understand. I know when I leave, down the road I'm probably going to forget who I am and what I ever did. But February 2nd, I'm not going to forget that day," and he said, "Why?" and I says, "You don't know why?" and he, this is true. I said, "It's Groundhog Day. If I come in and see my shadow I'll stay till Friday. If the sun's out, I'm out of here," it's true. Right. That's why I picked that day.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: So on February 2nd, 2009 --

DRUMMOND: And how long were you at Atlanta?

KOVACS: Let's see. I was at Atlanta from, ah, 2001, 2009, eight years, long time.

DRUMMOND: Yes, so, past your retirement age.

KOVACS: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was 62 when I retired.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm. And was Atlanta great? Was it wonderful to be back?

KOVACS: Yeah. It was.

DRUMMOND: Yeah?

KOVACS: It was. It, ah, I don't know, going to Memphis first, just about 02:27:00stopped me from going back. Because I wanted to go to Atlanta.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: And we weren't going to move to Memphis. But I knew down the road I could eventually get back. But Atlanta is the busiest, most complex facility on the planet. (clears throat) I don't know that I could have done it if I couldn't spool up in Memphis. You know. Taking this slow transition and getting back what I'd lost, you know and getting speed back and stuff like that, I probably wouldn't have, I don't think I would have.

DRUMMOND: So. What have you done since retirement?

KOVACS: Nothing. (laughs) No. Um, I used to do a lot of fishing, I used to a lot of hunting. Right now I'm into the drone technology in a big way and I'm probably going to apply for a certification. Right now the FAA and the government, they don't like this technology. For a lot of different reasons. 02:28:00It's just crazy. There's so many good things that can be done. Um, but still they have some legitimate concerns about Homeland Security and stuff like that.

DRUMMOND: Well, and just privacy of --

KOVACS: Privacy's going to be another issue.

DRUMMOND: Of -- of citizens, you know.

KOVACS: Yeah, yeah.

DRUMMOND: Hm. And so what do you want to do with the drones? What are you, what are you?

KOVACS: I don't know. Alls I know is that there is, um, they, being the economic experts predict that within eight years it could create over $100 billion and 160,000 jobs.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: This is the wave of the future from a technological point of view to me is in two areas. What's called "nanotechnology", making something smaller in the drone and robotic environment -- that is where it's going to be. 02:29:00Without question.

DRUMMOND: So do you still have your plane?

KOVACS: No. I sold my plane a day before Hurricane Katrina hit. What was that, 2006 when Katrina hit?

DRUMMOND: Ah, 2005?

KOVACS: Two-thousand-five. It, I was, my wife was not going to get in the airplane again. A lot of people that I used to fly with, when the economy started to drop and go south they sold their airplanes because of fuel costs or insurance costs or hangar costs and I just found myself saying, "You know what? It's kind of like, let's say, um, being a runner or a fighter, anything where you're at your peak and you know the only place you can go is back down," I says you know what? I did it. Less than one and a half percent of people have ever built airplanes. I said I did it, I should get out of it 02:30:00now. I should just -- and I sold it to a guy up in, ah, Wurtsmith, Michigan. Then he sold it to someone that lives in Tifton, Georgia.

DRUMMOND: Really?

KOVACS: And I've always wanted to pick up the phone and go down there and see it. But there is law, I think it's called a "25+ Rule", if you sell something that moves, you're liable for 25 or 26 years, or 25 plus one, for liability issues. So I sell the plane, he sells the plane, he sells the plane to his fifth cousin from Alabama removed and his 16th cousin dies in an airplane crash. Since I manufactured it, they're coming after me first. And ah, the attorney that drew up all the paperwork, he says, "Look, don't ever go see this airplane, don't ever email, don't talk to anybody about it, just sell your airplane," it was a beautiful airplane. Beautiful.

DRUMMOND: Yeah. Um. It sort of feels like we're at the end, but I find that it's hard to believe. I feel like there are things we haven't covered. Can you think of anything or anything you want to go back to or revisit or -- ?

KOVACS: Maybe one or two things.

DRUMMOND: Sure.

KOVACS: It was about five months after the strike. My wife and I decided that we needed to just go out and relax so I said, "Well, let's go downtown, we'll go see a movie and we'll go over to Trader Vic's there," it was in the basement of the Hilton. We're going to have a Coffee Diablo.

DRUMMOND: It's still there. It's still there.

KOVACS: Is it really?

DRUMMOND: Yeah.

KOVACS: Oh my god, I shall take her there just for the heck of it. So my wife loves coffee. I mean, she consumes coffee like a cow eats grass. We went down there and sat down. The waiter came up and I said, "We'd like two Coffee Diablos," you know, with just an espresso and they pour brandy or something 02:32:00down an orange peel. And I look and I see these two guys walk in, Joe Tucker and somebody else from the Department of Justice who's Gary somebody. And I looked at them and they went, like that, and I got up and I walked, I says, "Can't you guys give me a rest?" and they said, "Not yet, not just yet," true.

DRUMMOND: So they didn't accidentally happen to be there.

KOVACS: No, I don't think so.

DRUMMOND: They were intens --

KOVACS: I --

DRUMMOND: They were keeping an eye on you.

KOVACS: I think so, probably.

DRUMMOND: Oh.

KOVACS: But you know, looking back at that, that there's, it's like you've got to let it go.

DRUMMOND: Yeah.

KOVACS: Or like, um, I found this humorous. Last month I made two requests under the FOA, Freedom of Information Act, to the FBI and the Department of Justice. For this interview. I wanted to see if there's anything I left uncovered. I put in a request, I want any and all information with my name, tic-tic-tic-tic, so they have 21 days to respond. They can't find anything. I got on the phone, 02:33:00I said, "What do you mean?" they sent me a letter. There's nothing. I says, "I'm sitting here with 16 documents from the Department of Justice and the FBI with my name on it. You have no records of this?" that's where they had identified 36 targets.

DRUMMOND: Mmm -- Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: So I found that rather interesting. They've got to have some records someplace, but they're not (laughs) releasing them. Or maybe they can't find them.

DRUMMOND: The National Archives does have a lot of, a lot of stuff. I bet I also feel like if they were going to have the Freedom of Information Act, they should be prepared with appropriate staff and resources.

KOVACS: They don't have it, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).

DRUMMOND: To make it available.

KOVACS: Right, right.

DRUMMOND: But you know, it's another archives, so certainly I'm going to have strong opinions about how archives should be run. (laughs)

KOVACS: I think the only thing I can say, looking back, everything was an experience.

DRUMMOND: Yeah.

KOVACS: It was a mistake. Um.

DRUMMOND: The strike was a mistake?

KOVACS: Yes, the strike was a mistake.

DRUMMOND: On the record, this is on the record.

KOVACS: Um. In my opinion, in my opinion the strike was a mistake. I believe the political avenue was the one that we should have explored and continued on. Simply should have.

DRUMMOND: Unrelated to that, on here, somewhere I thought I saw something about taxidermy?

KOVACS: Oh my god, that's in here? (laughs)

DRUMMOND: Eighty-three to '98, taxi-, yeah. You were going to sneak that one by me.

KOVACS: I could -- all right, so. (laughter) The government --

DRUMMOND: Uh-huh.

KOVACS: -- forced all those that were fired to retrieve and recover monies in their retirement fund, which was against the law. Eventually they ruled against the government.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: I took the money out and I said, "OK, what do I want to do? Do I want to go to college and learn something else? What do I want to do?" I says,(said) "You know what? I love to hunt, I love to fish. All right, and then become a taxidermist," my wife thought I had gone nuts. And I went to 02:35:00this guy in Marietta that was an instructor at a school, the School of Taxidermy in Wisconsin and he taught me and I had a very thriving business for 10 years. Never making money at it, but I said, "I'm going to invest in myself --"

DRUMMOND: Right.

KOVACS: In something that I like and I tell people to this day, boy you know what? Do those things in life that make you happy, at all costs. That's it. Because you don't want to look back and say, "I could have, I should have, why didn't I?"

DRUMMOND: Yeah.

KOVACS: You know, you don't ever want to do that.

DRUMMOND: Well, when did you develop your love for hunting and fishing? Was that in Ohio?

KOVACS: Ah, in Ohio, as a kid with my uncle.

DRUMMOND: Okay.

KOVACS: As a kid with my uncle. Um. I did want to mention something.

DRUMMOND: Sure.

KOVACS: about my son, though, Philip.

DRUMMOND: OK.

KOVACS: He got his Ph.D. here. Who's leaving the University of Alabama, the Huntsville location, I think maybe in two weeks. He co-founded a company called 02:36:00Vastly that was, he did a TEDx Talk on something that was called "Complexity Engine" and what it was, was a search engine that allows an individual to search based on his or her set of skills and learning criteria and all this kind of stuff. So if you and I or 20 people are sitting here searching for a submarine and we're using the same search engine, whether you're five or 55 or 155, you get the same hits.

DRUMMOND: Right, yeah.

KOVACS: But you can put on software and it pulls out all the junk that he or she will not be able to digest and understand, immediately puts it into this --

DRUMMOND: It makes it age appropriate or education level of -- ?

KOVACS: Age appropriate, education appropriate, everything.

DRUMMOND: Oh.

KOVACS: So they went in through a grant --

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: In Alabama called the Alabama Launchpad and every year they do this and they take all these entrepreneurs and they get it down to the last sets in five 02:37:00and they have developed this and showed where, they took in some underprivileged school areas, in, ah, Huntsville, kids were reading at fifth grade level, or reading in line, you know, the stable group versus the experimental group. Really quite interesting stuff. Um. But I wanted to bring that up, since he got his Ph.D. here and his master's here, Georgia State is an exceptional school.

DRUMMOND: And so what has he been doing at the University of Alabama?

KOVACS: Well, he was, ah, he was teaching English, but he was also given some grant money to work on this program of figuring out, how do we change public education in the United States? (clears throat) Where do you start?

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: And, and that's where, ah, this all came about. He also holds two 02:38:00positions with a company called Appleton. They used to be called Appleton Learning Centers. (cough) Now it's, they're in a pair of (para) legal stuff -- I'm losing my voice now. So he's the director of Research & Development for Appleton and vice president of Education, but as soon as his company takes off he'll probably walk from that. (clears throat) And it scared me because of the strike, you know. Rolling the dice, taking the risk.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: And he had tenure and everything up there.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: So we'll see. You know, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) --

DRUMMOND: No, no, that's very interesting. Um. Because I'm always interested in education and doing searches because our stuff is online and it's how are people going to find it? As you know, how did we meet? On the phone.

KOVACS: Yeah.

DRUMMOND: Because you called, because you were trying to find information and we 02:39:00have all this great stuff online, but it is not necessarily an intuitive system. And it is not, it is an imperfect way to do a really awesome thing. And so those are the things, that as an information professional, that I'm concerned with too is making sure people are able to get, it's there, how do you get people to what they're looking for. So that is of interest to me.

KOVACS: Here's what, ah, (clears throat) this is like saying I'm going to hold you accountable. Here's what you need to do for me. When you get real bored and you have some free time, Google Dr. Philip Kovacs, TEDx Huntsville.

DRUMMOND: OK.

KOVACS: And watch this presentation and it keys about what's wrong with education.

DRUMMOND: OK.

KOVACS: And um, you'll, (clears throat) one thing I didn't know, that I still can't believe, do you know how much money the government spends annually on books for the United States?

DRUMMOND: For, for a child?

KOVACS: For doing everything and anything that has to do with a schoolbook.

DRUMMOND: No.

KOVACS: Thirty-three billion.

DRUMMOND: Hm.

KOVACS: A year and (inaudible) I called my son, "You have a mistake here, 33 billion, that's more than Greece's economy," and he said, "No," he says, "Dad, the average ninth grader carries seven books. The weight is 62 to 67 pounds. That costs the government 33 to $33.5 billion per year," and alls they do is they go into a class, the teacher says, "Learn this, I'm going to test you on that," so they memorize and regurgitate.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: And his approach is more like, ah, there's a segment in everyone's (clears throat) learning abilities and everybody is exceptional at something and they need to start keying on this small segment. So they took, in one example, and not only with this, they took these two classes, separated the students. One 02:41:00class was allowed two hours a week to close the books and go on the Internet and do whatever they wanted to do. Staying within the filters of the school. And every other week they had to present what they did. That's all he did. And the comprehension went like this. Because they found out that you have to want to learn. You have to want this. The more you want it, the better you're going to be and the better you will be, now you need to share that and that's where all this is headed, you know.

DRUMMOND: Because being able to articulate what you've learned --

KOVACS: Absolutely.

DRUMMOND: Is such an important part of knowing that you've actually learned it.

KOVACS: Absolutely. But now that I know you and I feel so comfortable with you --

DRUMMOND: Oh, good.

KOVACS: I want your honest opinion of that plot.

DRUMMOND: OK.

KOVACS: I want your honest opinion, because you're the perfect person to make an honest assessment. Ah, one of my best friends, for what it's worth, he said, "I don't know, you know, we believe in the core out here," and I 02:42:00said, "Well, kind of put that to the side for now and just think of a way to change how we teach, how do we get out of the hole that we're in?" because it's steep and deep.

DRUMMOND: And Georgia's one of the few states, if, if I may just say this --

KOVACS: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

DRUMMOND: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- conversation, I know that every school teaches to college instead of having that part of the high school that teaches to trades --

KOVACS: Yes.

DRUMMOND: And maybe learning that. And I don't think that college is for everybody.

KOVACS: It's not.

DRUMMOND: I --

KOVACS: I think you're going to like what, yeah.

DRUMMOND: And, and, and, and you know and I know that part of me, understanding this, because I know so many great union folks who have gone through apprenticeship programs for electrical work or machinist, you know, woodworkers, things like that.

KOVACS: Yes.

DRUMMOND: And that, and that they are incredibly successful and love the work that they do and find ways to incorporate that work into their free time or their hobbies or whatever --

KOVACS: Yes.

DRUMMOND: And that it's just, I mean, a degree isn't for everyone.

KOVACS: Right. There, for such a long time parents were like this. You're going to college and you're going to become a doctor. (clears throat) Because I wanted to become a doctor. Instead of, your child walks up and says, "Mom, I want to be a painter," or a plumber, or I want to work in a nursery or something.

DRUMMOND: Yeah.

KOVACS: That is not just okay, it's what he or she should do because they will, they'll really excel at that and then that's where you find people all of the sudden that didn't go to college, now they have their own multimillion dollar plumbing business. We have one in Peachtree City that, story, you know, parents kept pushing, no, I want to do this. It's okay to not go to college.

DRUMMOND: Uh-huh. Dr. King said, um --

KOVACS: It's okay.

DRUMMOND: That there, that there is dignity in all labor that is necessary, and I absolutely believe it.

KOVACS: So you, I think, I think you're going to like what you, my son is, I like that, (inaudible) persuaded a lot of parents where they were having trouble with their kids in school, in English, let's say, or something like that, you know says, "What does..what does your daughter want to be?"

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: I don't know. How about this? You know, most kids, by age eight, know what they want to be. Eighty percent, at eight, know what they want to be.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: Now how many end up being that I don't know, but you always see people, oh, I always wanted to fly an airplane. And if you want it and you want it bad enough, you're going to get it, you're going to do it.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: You know. Jeez, maybe I will do an internship. (laughs)

DRUMMOND: Don't tease me. But that might be a good place to end the interview.

KOVACS: OK.

DRUMMOND: Unless you can think of anything else.

KOVACS: I can't think --

DRUMMOND: That we didn't, that we didn't cover. Oh, but wait. Let me go back with a follow up question on the taxidermy.

KOVACS: Yes? OK.

DRUMMOND: So is your house full of taxidermy things that your wife is just like, please get these out -- out of my home? (laughs)

KOVACS: Yes. We have, we have a room that has nothing but white tail deer and a Rocky Mountain elk in it and the other room has nothing but large mouth bass in it and ah, when I first got in the business I had everything in my living room and my kids hated it. "Dad, we don't like to bring anybody over here," why? "Because all they's doing is looking at dead deer and fish," so when I mounted it, this is true, (laughs) they're all just turned a certain number of degrees so when you're in this room, everyone one of them's always looking at you, it's kind of weird. (laughter) I forgot about that. You've got good eyes. I don't even know why I put that in there. My wife says, "Why are you putting it there?" I don't know what to put in there.

DRUMMOND: Ah, for me, for me. (laughs) Um. OK. Well, thank you so very much. Was it what you expected?

KOVACS: Yes, plus some, I think, you know.

DRUMMOND: Good.

KOVACS: It really was. It was a fun time. I've been looking forward to this, ah, a long, long time. Because I want to develop something for my grandkids to look back and say, "This was my granddad and my great-granddad," and you know, that's why I wanted to do the union thing and I did something for the military thing and all that kind of stuff.

DRUMMOND: Mm-hmm.

KOVACS: Yes.

DRUMMOND: Well, it's been a wonderful interview and I was so, so happy that you wanted to do this and thank you very much.

KOVACS: You're more than welcome. How did I do?