Betty Hinson, Lousie Biggerstaff, Phurman Biggerstaff, May Null Interv

 GEORGE STONEY: See if you can get down so we don't lose it.

JAMIE STONEY: Just squat, Judy - mucho mas.

GEORGE STONEY: Betty, uh, I believe you told me that you found these - one of these people?

HINSON: This lady here.

GEORGE STONEY: Mm-hmm.

HINSON: May.

GEORGE STONEY: What's her -

HINSON: Null. May Null.

GEORGE STONEY: May Null.

HINSON: Uh-huh. I called her -

GEORGE STONEY: Just a moment. We have to stop just a moment.

HELFAND: Is that a car?

JAMIE STONEY: Watch your middle, Judy, and OK, rolling.

GEORGE STONEY: Betty, I think you told me you found this lady?

HINSON: Yes, May. May Engle Null and this is her son. This was her son. I found her by calling, um, a niece of hers and she told me that May is still living and 00:01:00lives in Pineville and that she's about 90 or 92 years old.

GEORGE STONEY: Well, we'd like very much to meet her.

HINSON: OK, let's call.

GEORGE STONEY: Good. Cross fingers.

HINSON: Mm-hmm.

GEORGE STONEY: If she's that old there's a good chance she'll be home.

HINSON: Hello, Ms. Null? Is this Ms. Null? This is Louise. OK. I'm Betty Hinson over in Belmont. Oh, did you? Well, I'm sorry. I missed you. Um, can we come over today? OK. OK. OK. Yeah, it'll take a while to get over there. 00:02:00You're having dinner? OK. OK. Listen, I know the way to Pineville and I get on 51 and where do you live from the square? Past what? Carolina Place, at one of the service stations, and we pass Bo Jangles, OK. A fountain and a 00:03:00chiropractor's office. Next road on the right. That'll be Johnson Street or road? OK. OK. Top of the hill and you live in the condo - Renaissance Court. And what is your apartment number - your condo number? Seventy-eight oh six B. A little green Toyota in the parking lot in your drive way, I mean - OK. OK. OK. 00:04:00Park in the third place, OK. Behind the Toyota? Oh, mm-hmm. OK, we'll find a parking place. See you in a little bit. Bye-bye. They were having dinner. She said that they ate breakfast late and they were having a late dinner.

GEORGE STONEY: How old is she?

HINSON: I didn't even ask.

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah, well we'll see when we get out there.

HINSON: OK, but she's in her 90s, I know that.

HELFAND: How did you find her, Betty?

HINSON: I called her niece, Lorene Reimer, that I was trying to find when you - when y'all were here, you know, and I couldn't find anybody at home or 00:05:00anything, but I finally got Lorene, her niece.

HELFAND: OK, you looked at the picture and you said -

HINSON: I said, "That's May Engle." She was May before she was married, you know, and I didn't know who she married. But, uh, I found out she had married a Null, so her name is May Engle Null.

GEORGE STONEY: And she is -

HINSON: They had her listed as Mrs. JW Engle.

HELFAND: Did you ever hear about - did you ever hear about people getting food like that during - during that strike?

HINSON: Well, I heard about - I heard [Elizabeth?] (inaudible) talk about it, but not until then when Elizabeth was talking about it.

GEORGE STONEY: OK, let's go.

HINSON: OK.

GEORGE STONEY: OK.

HINSON: Excuse me, let me get my coffee cup right here. You all should - do you want to take your notebook?

GEORGE STONEY: Sure. (inaudible) this picture.

HINSON: We're gone. You want to take that check over to the drug store and get that medicine? OK. OK.

GEORGE STONEY: OK, Betty, I'll ride with you and then -

JAMIE STONEY: We'll just pick them up outside?

HELFAND: Sure.

(break in audio 6:26-40:00)

[Silence]

[Silence]

[Silence]

[Silence]

[Silence]

[Silence]

[Silence]

[Silence]

[Silence]

[Silence]

[Silence]

[Silence]

[Silence]

[Silence]

[Silence]

[Silence]

[Silence]

[Silence]

[Silence]

[Silence]

[Silence]

[Silence]

[Silence]

[Silence]

[Silence]

[Silence]

[Silence]

[Silence]

[Silence]

[Silence]

[Silence]

[Silence]

[Silence]

[Silence]

GEORGE STONEY: OK, Jamie.

JAMIE STONEY: Roll it.

GEORGE STONEY: OK, when you - you were there in 1932 when Roosevelt.

NULL: Yes.

GEORGE STONEY: It went from, uh - you sir, could you come over here?

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF: OK.

HELFAND: Betty, you get on in there, too.

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah. Betty?

HELFAND: You brought us here.

HINSON: That's OK.

GEORGE STONEY: And you are?

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF: Phurman Biggerstaff. I'm her son-in-law.

GEORGE STONEY: Son-in-law.

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF: Yeah.

GEORGE STONEY: And this is Betty Hinson.

NULL: Glad to meet you.

HINSON: I lived - I lived below Julius, your brother.

NULL: Oh, Julius.

HINSON: Uh-huh.

NULL: That's my brother.

HINSON: Yes.

NULL: Oh, he's a wonderful man.

HINSON: Yes, he sure was.

GEORGE STONEY: And Betty is the one who helped us find you.

NULL: Was it?

GEORGE STONEY: Yes.

NULL: Well.

HINSON: I called Lorene.

NULL: Oh, you don't - that's my granddaughter.

HINSON: Uh-huh. I called her.

NULL: You said Lorene?

HINSON: Uh-huh. I called Lorene.

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF: Not Lorene Engle. She called Lorene [Engle?], not Lorene.

HINSON: Lorene Reimer. Engle-Reimer.

NULL: Yeah, and you talked to her?

HINSON: Yeah, and I said, "Is May still living?" and she said, "Yes," and said she's 90 - what - one years old and said she recently had a birthday party and we went over there. She said they all come over here.

NULL: Oh, yeah, I have that crowd at my birthday all the time.

GEORGE STONEY: And I want you -

NULL: Wonderful crowd.

GEORGE STONEY: And you should feel proud of the fact that -

NULL: Oh, I'm so proud of my children! I'm so - I love them to death, that's one of them. They're great people.

GEORGE STONEY: But you should be proud of the fact that she recognized you from a picture made in 1934.

NULL: Did you recognize me, honey? Do I look like I did? Do I? Oh, goodness.

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF: Let's see if she can find herself. (inaudible).

NULL: (inaudible).

GEORGE STONEY: Right here. Holding your baby.

NULL: Well -

GEORGE STONEY: Let me take it out of this sleeve and it'll maybe help you.

HINSON: See if that isn't May. Let her -

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF: That looks like Margaret.

HINSON: More like Margaret?

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF: I think it's Margaret. That's her baby sister.

GEORGE STONEY: I see.

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF: That's Margaret.

GEORGE STONEY: Is she still -

HINSON: Yes, she's still here.

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF: Here she is, right here.

GEORGE STONEY: I'll be darned. Do you recognize your baby sister?

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF That's Aunt Margaret.

NULL: Yeah, that - that's my sister.

HINSON: Oh.

NULL: That's my sister. Oh, yeah. That's my sister and that's her oldest, Douglas.

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF: Her oldest (inaudible).

NULL: She had two boys and a girl.

GEORGE STONEY: Do you know who's the person next to her?

NULL: I hardly recognize her. Oh, that's my sister, Margaret. She - Margaret was little.

HINSON: Well, yes.

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF: She's still living. She lived down on (inaudible) where the old (inaudible).

NULL: Where did you get these pictures?

GEORGE STONEY: We got them in a library in New York City.

NULL: Did you? Well, good. I like that. It just looks like my sister.

GEORGE STONEY: What we'll do -

NULL: That just looks like my sister.

GEORGE STONEY: We'll make a copy for you.

HELFAND: George, why don't you read the back of it for her.

GEORGE STONEY: OK. What is says on the back of it is, Mrs. JW Engle - that's your sister?

NULL: Yeah.

GEORGE STONEY: And Mrs. James Cloninger, both at the textile manufact - this manufacturing company that is in Belmont, North Carolina, shown leaving a local strike relief station laden with bundles of food supplied by the textile union which called the strike. This is in 20th of September in 1934.

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF: It's Margaret Garrett, but it's not Engle there.

HINSON: I know - I knew that it wasn't Engle.

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF: Mm-mm. It's Margaret Garrett.

HINSON: That that was her maiden name.

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF: Yeah. Margaret Engle Garrett.

HINSON: Well, see, I didn't know Margaret and May apart, actually, and I just knew May and -

NULL: You know me?

HINSON: Yes, because I've seen you at Julius' house.

NULL: Have you?

HINSON: Yeah.

NULL: What's your name, honey?

HINSON: Did you know the other Engle family that lived over there?

NULL: Yeah, lived on the hill.

HINSON: Yeah.

NULL: Yeah, I knew them.

HINSON: That was Saul and Frank and Aidan - Kitty.

NULL: Yeah.

HINSON: I'm Kitty's daughter.

NULL: Are you?

HINSON: Yeah.

NULL: Oh, I knew them.

HINSON: And [Viney?].

NULL: They lived back at the Eagle Mill. Yeah, the Eagle Mill.

HINSON: Uh-huh.

NULL: Yeah, that's him.

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF: I know this woman's face, but I can't - know her name.

HINSON: It says she's a Cloninger - a James Cloninger.

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF: Yeah, I know her face.

NULL: Yeah, we lived at the Eagle Mill, me and my husband Lou [been there?] 00:45:00before I had any children and when I got pregnant with his - wife - I - we - my mother-in-law was [wanted to live in the?] country a little bit til after she was born then we moved on the hill and I worked ever since. I worked in the cotton mill, I was no big - I had to set up on [the rails?] to reach the rope and that's how little I was.

GEORGE STONEY: How much schooling did you have?

NULL: (inaudible)

GEORGE STONEY: How much schooling?

NULL: I didn't have any schooling. I went to work. I worked (inaudible), but I was proud of it 'cause my poor daddy raised us and he was a good man and my mother was a hard working woman and (inaudible) she was a good woman.

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF: She was a great person.

HINSON: She must have been.

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF: She was.

GEORGE STONEY: Oh, that's a great picture.

HINSON: Isn't that good?

NULL: Setting down by herself.

GEORGE STONEY: Yes, beautiful picture. Well, now do you remember in the early 00:46:00part of, uh, when Roosevelt got to be president, they cut the hours from 11 to 12 -

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF: Twelve to eight.

GEORGE STONEY: How did that go?

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF: I really don't know, but I remember my dad, he worked at the Crescent. He worked 12 hours a day and then when they went on eight hours, he would watch on the weekends to make up the hours, to make the money that they [made?]. I think he made about seven dollars and something a week for about 60 or 70 hours a week.

GEORGE STONEY: And then when they cut it to eight.

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF: Eight hours - what year did they cut it?

GEORGE STONEY: Nineteen thirty-three.

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF: Thirty-three?

GEORGE STONEY: In June of '33.

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF: Yeah.

GEORGE STONEY: Well, now one of the things we're interested in is that right after that there was a big union organization in the town.

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF: Yeah, I used to go to them. I was just a kid. I'd go with my grandmother down at the old lumber yard. Do you remember the old lumber yard?

NULL: We used to get an hour for dinner. We went home for dinner and then back to work.

GEORGE STONEY: But could you tell us about those meetings?

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF: Well, they would have people there from, I guess they were from all New York and around trying to organize the people, but the people - the people in the South, you can't - you can't lead them; they won't lead.

GEORGE STONEY: Do you remember a fellow named Paul Christopher who came over from Shelby?

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF: Not really. I was just a kid myself then.

NULL: He wasn't nothing but a baby.

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF: Twenty-four or thirty-three, I was only about nine or ten years old at that time, but I remember going to the meetings.

GEORGE STONEY: Were you, uh, did you remember, uh, talking about the union or joining the union when you working in the factory?

NULL: Yes, that's all they talked about; join that union.

GEORGE STONEY: Did you join?

NULL: No, I didn't. I wouldn't join, but my daddy did and all - my brothers 00:48:00- oldest brother, my brother. They had to join or they wouldn't have no job.

GEORGE STONEY: Why was that?

NULL: Well, they just - they wouldn't let 'em work. If they didn't belong to that union, they wouldn't get to work.

GEORGE STONEY: I see.

NULL: Well, they had to belong to the union so they get to work.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, the - the employers didn't say that they had to join, did they?

NULL: No, but if you didn't join that union you couldn't work.

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF: They never did get the unions in either (inaudible).

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.

JAMIE STONEY: Dad, (inaudible).

NULL: They long gone.

HINSON: I know, he built some cabinets in my aunt's house.

NULL: Where'd you work with him anyway?

HINSON: I didn't work with him. He built cabinets in my aunt's house.

NULL: (inaudible) houses now. Did you know Lee?

HINSON: Yeah.

NULL: Lee, my brother. You know him?

HINSON: Uh-huh, yes.

NULL: Did you?

HINSON: Yeah.

NULL: Lord, he's a wonderful man. [He ain't working.]

GEORGE STONEY: Now, you lived on the village, did you?

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF: Lived on the Crescent Mill village. Moved there when I was six year old.

GEORGE STONEY: And how long did you live there?

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF: Till 19 and 64, off and on. I moved from (inaudible) around.

GEORGE STONEY: I see.

NULL: He's a wonderful man. A hard working man. I tell you the truth, he worked all the time.

(overlapping dialogue; inaudible)

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF: It's not your mother, it's Aunt Margaret.

LOUSIE BIGGERSTAFF: Oh, is it?

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF: Aunt Margaret and Douglas.

HINSON: Is Douglas still living?

NULL: You say Margaret - you say Margaret (inaudible) Douglas?

LOUISE BIGGERSTAFF: Oh, that's sweet. I remember her (inaudible) 'cause I kept (inaudible).

LOUISE BIGGERSTAFF: Oh, yeah, Mom. She looks like she did (inaudible) back then. (inaudible).

GEORGE STONEY: You want to see some more pictures, huh? OK.

LOUISE BIGGERSTAFF: Oh, this is Aunt Margaret, you gotta go there. They'd get the biggest kick out of this.

GEORGE STONEY: Here it is. Here's a big parade in Gastonia with people from 00:50:00Ranlo. Did you know people from Ranlo?

NULL: No, I didn't work at Ranlo.

HINSON: I did.

NULL: I didn't know nobody who worked at Ranlo. But I (inaudible) lots and lots of time.

HELFAND: You know what? This lady has something more to say about this picture.

LOUISE BIGGERSTAFF: Oh, are they coming out of work or what are they doing?

HELFAND: You know what, Bill will explain it to you a little bit if you're [walking?] a little bit.

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF: They're at a union meeting, honey.

GEORGE STONEY: No, that's uh -

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF: They're giving them food.

GEORGE STONEY: Where they're giving them food.

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF: They're in the strike.

NULL: What - what is it? Oh, that's my sister, Margaret. And that - I know her, but I can't think of her name.

HELFAND: Cloninger.

NULL: Huh.

HELFAND: Cloninger, Mrs. James Cloninger.

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF: James Cloninger. I know her face.

NULL: She was just a kid when I know her, but Margaret looks like herself, but she really - and that's Douglas.

HINSON: (inaudible) Margaret.

NULL: Huh - you think Margaret look like herself?

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF: Yes.

LOUISE BIGGERSTAFF: Yeah, Mama.

NULL: She's awful little and slim.

HINSON: Well, who's the oldest, Margaret or her?

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF: Grandma's the oldest.

LOUISE BIGGERSTAFF: Oh, Mama's (inaudible). She's the youngest, Mama's the older one. Mama's 90, Aunt Margaret's just 74.

HELFAND: Did you know that she joined the union? Your sister?

LOUISE BIGGERSTAFF: No, she didn't know that.

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF: I don't - she wouldn't know. Uh-uh. But I don't have any idea any of them joined.

HINSON: They may not have. I don't know whether -

GEORGE STONEY: And here's another parade in Gastonia on Labor Day in 1934. Do you remember going to any of those big parades?

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF: No, uh-uh. All I remember is going to the meetings over there in the old lumber yard.

HELFAND: Who'd you go with?

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF: My grandmother.

HINSON: Let me see the one from Ranlo because I had an aunt that lived at Ranlo and I knew some people.

NULL: Look at all them pictures.

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF: Gastonia, North Carolina.

NULL: You'd been around (inaudible).

GEORGE STONEY: That's right. Well, a lot of these are from South Carolina. A lot of these are from South Carolina and Georgia.

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF: Gastonia really hadn't changed that much, has it?

GEORGE STONEY: You'd recognize Main Street, wouldn't you?

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF: Oh, yeah, sure.

HINSON: Wouldn't you love to have one of those A-Models?

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF: Mm-hmm. My dad had one. First car he ever had was a 1929 T-Model. Then we had the 1932 A-Model. That's where I learned to drive, the A-Model.

GEORGE STONEY: What did you do in the mills?

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF: Well, I started off doffing spinning. Went from doffing spinning to doffing twisters, doffing twisters to running twisters, then running 00:53:00twisters to section hand on an automatic spooler. Went all the way through.

JAMIE STONEY: Could you say that one more time? I was a little out of focus. (inaudible)

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF: I started off doffing spinning, went from doffing spinning to doffing twisters, and from doffing twisters to running twisters, and from running twisters to a section hand on an automatic spooler. Then I left and went to New Jersey.

JAMIE STONEY: And when you started out, what was your average weekly wage?

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF: Uh, 32 and half cent an hour for about 13 dollars and something a week.

NULL: (inaudible)

JAMIE STONEY: And when you were (inaudible)?

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF: I was making a dollar and 50-some cent an hour. No, five dollars and 50-some cent an hour, I'm sorry.

HELFAND: George, why don't you explain to everybody who we're looking for and why we're trying so hard to find these folks.

GEORGE STONEY: OK, you see, we've got newspapers that tell us about those big meetings and all of the organization and all of that in - around 1932,'33, '34, and we're trying to find some people who helped set up those meetings and organize them, you see. Do you not remember any of the people who led that?

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF: No, I really don't. I don't imagine any of those people are living around now.

HINSON: I wouldn't think so either.

GEORGE STONEY: What about - what about a fellow named Red Lisk?

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF: I know the name, but I - I have no idea where or whatever happened to him. I think he was one of the speakers at a lot of these meetings.

GEORGE STONEY: He was, that's true.

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF: Yep. I remember his name now, but I couldn't - I can't picture him or -

GEORGE STONEY: A fellow that came from New York, was named Francis Gorman.

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF: I just remember the people up there on the platform telling the people about the union, what they could do for them and all of that.

GEORGE STONEY: What about a fellow name Alton Lawrence? He comes from my home town in Winston-Salem.

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF: The name doesn't - doesn't ring a bell, but the Red - Red did - I can remember them calling him Red. That's all they called him.

GEORGE STONEY: Well, he was known as Six-Hour Red because what he was trying to do was to get -

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF: Six hour shifts.

GEORGE STONEY: Six hour shifts so that they could have four shifts so they could employ more people.

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF: That's what they should have done back years ago, really should have done, but raise the wages equal to what they were making.

GEORGE STONEY: Well, that was, I think, one of the things that they were trying to do. That was one of the things that the union was trying to do.

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF: Yeah.

HINSON: Well, now I can remember when my mother went to work at six and got off at six -

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF: Twelve hours a day.

HINSON: - because, uh, my grandmother kept me, you know, and at six I would go 00:56:00out on the porch and peek through the banisters, you know, and wait for her. They'd tell me it's about time for mother to come home.

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF: My dad he worked all his life on third shift.

GEORGE STONEY: Hmm.

PHURMAN BIGGERSTAFF: Until he - about two years before he retired.

NULL: Did you know of Engles? Engles. (inaudible).

GEORGE STONEY: I didn't know them, no.

NULL: You didn't know them?

GEORGE STONEY: No.

NULL: That was my daddy.

GEORGE STONEY: I see. Where would your folks come from?

NULL: They come from up in the mountains, (inaudible) That's where - that's where my daddy and momma was born there and raised there, in the mountains.

GEORGE STONEY: Did you have - keep relatives up there after they came down?

NULL: My grandma and grandpa lived up there and they've all moved down here.

GEORGE STONEY: They all moved down.

NULL: Yeah.

GEORGE STONEY: So you didn't go up there to the mountains to visit?

NULL: We - yeah, we went sometimes often - probably every four or five years we'd go up there.