Claude and Mabel Helton Interview

GEORGE STONEY: Turn off the fan?

JAMIE STONEY: Sure.

CLAUDE HELTON: Yeah.

GEORGE STONEY: (inaudible) Road.

CLAUDE HELTON: This first house out here is where [farmer?] lived. That's one of the places (inaudible).

GEORGE STONEY: That old building over here - this is an old one.

CLAUDE HELTON: Yeah, that's - it used to be what's called the community building and I believe that the Flint Company put that up but later sold it to an individual and it had - upstairs it had music, meetings of different kinds and downstairs it had a barber shop, showers, 00:02:00(inaudible). (inaudible).

GEORGE STONEY: Is she behind you?

CLAUDE HELTON: No, uh-uh.

JAMIE STONEY: (inaudible) where he lives. She may not have been able to make the turn behind us.

GEORGE STONEY: Is that (inaudible) coming now? No, it isn't.

(break in video; break in audio)

GEORGE STONEY: I'm going to turn on the blower now. It's stopped (inaudible).

JAMIE STONEY: (inaudible)

GEORGE STONEY: OK. I don't where else (inaudible). I don't spot her now. I think that gray car behind us is it. Yes - no, no, that's another one - I don't see her, but she's got your address. She'll find it.

CLAUDE HELTON: Yeah, that's - irritating sometimes - I went down to see (inaudible) met in Florida?

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.

CLAUDE HELTON: And (inaudible) I couldn't remember what street he lived on so I went to a service station and called him and he came out and picked me up --

(break in audio; break in video)

CLAUDE HELTON: -- in the car and took off and he (inaudible) pay attention to lights and things like that, to curbs, you know. (pause) They got my boy and took off and ran through the lights and in just a few seconds I was so far behind and he just left me there. The lights changed, so I just pulled over and parked again. That ways I figured he'll come by. And later did come back and 00:05:00wondered what happened to me and I said, "Well, you left me."

(break in audio; break in video)

JAMIE STONEY: Speed.

GEORGE STONEY: OK, I want to show you some pictures of the 1934 events. This is one in Belmont. These two women have come to get some food from the union relief place. Do you remember that, Claude?

CLAUDE HELTON: No, mm-mmm. No, I don't - anything that happened in Belmont at all.

GEORGE STONEY: See, we found this woman. We went over to, uh, her sister's house who's 91 and she recognized it. And so we're going to be going over there tomorrow. Here is a scene in Gastonia on Labor Day and the first Labor 00:06:00Day in September in 1934 and people from all over Gaston county came in to the Labor Day parade. Do you remember them celebrating Labor Day before?

CLAUDE HELTON: No, no I don't.

GEORGE STONEY: Did they celebrate Labor Day in your factory?

CLAUDE HELTON: Not that I know of. I don't remember it - any special occasion like that.

GEORGE STONEY: Well, let me - we have some movies of this same event, so let me show you on your VCR here. Let me show you some pictures of that.

HELFAND: Excuse me, George, can you - something - I'm hearing a big sound or some --

(break in audio; break in video)

JAMIE STONEY: Well, the other frequency we were taking some hits on as well, weren't we? I was picking up radio calls on the first one and we changed this morning.

HELFAND: Right. And then it was fine. I just got - OK. I'll just leave it then. I'm sorry. I think -

(break in audio; break in video)

JAMIE STONEY: Look towards him and pick it up from there.

GEORGE STONEY: OK. I'm going to be showing you some news reel footage of the Labor Day parade in Gastonia in early September of 1934 just the day the strike started. It's interesting that Labor Day had not been celebrated in this state and the manufacturers said that they weren't going to celebrate it, but then when they announced - when so many people turned out for this Labor Day parade, they decided they'd shut down and have the parade. I'm going to show you what it looked like. (music) Let me take it back there so that you 00:08:00can see how it begins. Funny to see them moving back like that. Here we go, all right. (music)

MABEL HELTON: That's Main Street all right, but I think I had done left Gastonia, you know (inaudible)? There's some ladies in it. (music) I shall 00:09:00not be moved is what they're singing.

GEORGE STONEY: Did you recognize what they're singing, Claude?

MABEL HELTON: I shall not be moved.

CLAUDE HELTON: Do I what? No, I was listening to the children. I thought the children were singing, but -

MABEL HELTON: Yeah, they were singing it.

CLAUDE HELTON: Oh, no I really didn't recognize that part. I should have, though.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, I believe you said that was what they sang on the picket line.

CLAUDE HELTON: Yeah, I shall not be moved.

GEORGE STONEY: OK.

CLAUDE HELTON: I'll never forget it.

MABEL HELTON: But you was moved, right?

CLAUDE HELTON: Not by force, but events.

GEORGE STONEY: That's their marching from one place to another.

MABEL HELTON: Yeah, that must have been the one I followed that morning. (laughs)

MOVIE NARRATION: "A great textile strike spreads. Here are typical scenes in Gastonia, North Carolina. With the total strike nearing half a million, over 200,000 are out in the southern states where already lives have been lost and many wounded. At the first reports of bloodshed in the Carolinas and Georgia, President Roosevelt appointed a special mediation board in an effort to end growing disorder."

GEORGE STONEY: Did you notice that scene there, Claude? It probably looked a bit like you people picketing your own factory. Would you like to see that again?

CLAUDE HELTON: Yeah.

GEORGE STONEY: OK. Let's see if we can get that back.

MOVIE NARRATION: " - Carolinas and Georgia, President Roosevelt appointed a special mediation board in an effort to end growing disorder. 00:11:00Mass meetings -"

GEORGE STONEY: This is a big meeting.

CLAUDE HELTON: Now, you said that was Hinson, didn't you?

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah, that's right.

CLAUDE HELTON: What - it don't look like the way that I remember.

GEORGE STONEY: This is stuff now in New England where they were also striking, you see?

CLAUDE HELTON: Oh.

GEORGE STONEY: You can recognize that those are not in Gastonia.

CLAUDE HELTON: Oh, they pulled him out, didn't they?

MABEL HELTON: Yeah, he don't arrest anyone.

MOVIE NARRATION: "The crises is growing graver as these films were issued but federal intervention brought hope of restored peace."

GEORGE STONEY: Now, we're going to see some of those scenes again long because we have both what was actually used in the new reel and what they said. So, here it goes again. (music) See the ladies? (music) Remember when ladies wore all those hats?

MABEL HELTON: Oh, yeah. (laughs) I'm glad they don't any more.

HELFAND: George, you might want to point out the signs of the locals.

GEORGE STONEY: I did, yeah.

MABEL HELTON: What does that say?

JAMIE STONEY: Labor Day observance.

GEORGE STONEY: We talked to a fellow who yesterday who was playing the drums at the head of the parade.

CLAUDE HELTON: I said, that's all new to me. I didn't even know we had it. 00:14:00(inaudible)

GEORGE STONEY: See the locals - 2121? The women on the picket lines. This is more from New England.

CLAUDE HELTON: Looks like the officers got busy there. The officers are pulling or somebody is pulling -

GEORGE STONEY: Now this out in front of the mill there. And the big meeting.

MABEL HELTON: We textile workers want peace.

MOVIE NARRATION: Fellow workers, we want peace and prosperity in this country here. That's what we're fighting for and that's what we're gonna have!" (cheering)

MABEL HELTON: Peace and prosperity in this country and that's what we're going to have.

GEORGE STONEY: We'll see a little bit more of that in just a moment.

HELFAND: George, Mrs. Helton said that she was following the workers at Parkdale and that was Parkdale, so you just might want to remind her.

GEORGE STONEY: Mmhm, OK.

HELFAND: You just may have to fast forward to find him again -

GEORGE STONEY: Where is this?

HELFAND: I think that's New England.

GEORGE STONEY: Mm-hmm. OK. Yeah, that's New England. Big old New England 00:16:00plants. See what a big strike it was all over the country?

CLAUDE HELTON: Uh-huh. Everyone (inaudible) that -- been that large a...

MABEL HELTON: Well, I went down to a little town called Saxapahaw down on the river below Burlington. Went to work so I missed all that, you know. I worked through it all.

GEORGE STONEY: Saxapahw?

MABEL HELTON: Uh-huh.

HELFAND: You mean, oh, you were working at Parkdale at the time, weren't you?

MABEL HELTON: Yeah, uh-huh, but we went down there when they closed down the plant, when they had all this trouble.

HELFAND: OK, well we might really want to get that.

GEORGE STONEY: Now this is -

MOVIE NARRATION: "New England takes place when state troopers -"

GEORGE STONEY: This is New England.

CLAUDE HELTON: That's (inaudible).

GEORGE STONEY: This is in New England.

CLAUDE HELTON: They had trouble there, then.

GEORGE STONEY: They had a lot of trouble there, yes.

HELFAND: You know what, George?

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah?

HELFAND: What we might want to do is rewind to where - to before where we were. It might be that he was there because -

GEORGE STONEY: Where -

HELFAND: - before all the parades and all that stuff, it could be that he was there.

GEORGE STONEY: He was there?

HELFAND: Yeah. It could be earlier. I'm just suggesting that we might find -

GEORGE STONEY: Oh, you mean -

HELFAND: Yeah.

GEORGE STONEY: All of this is New England. So you think it's ahead of the -

HELFAND: Where we started.

GEORGE STONEY: OK, right. All this comes from South Carolina, from the University of South Carolina's archives.

JAMIE STONEY: Dad, could you just -

HELFAND: That's the flying squadron coming on.

GEORGE STONEY: OK, we'll start here.

HELFAND: No, no, he's going to speak though, right?

GEORGE STONEY: OK, we'll stop until... Okay, now --

(break in audio; break in video)

JAMIE STONEY: Whenever you're ready.

GEORGE STONEY: OK. Now what I'm going to be showing you is some more footage 00:20:00of things around Gastonia. Oh, c'mon. There it goes. That's New England, now.

HELFAND: No, George, that's Gastonia.

GEORGE STONEY: Then I've got to back up.

HELFAND: It's all Main Street.

GEORGE STONEY: I didn't realize that this -

(break in audio; break in video)

MABEL HELTON: Yeah, that's Main Street all right.

GEORGE STONEY: You'll have to speak a little louder over the sound. Just say that again.

MABEL HELTON: Yeah, I said that's Main Street all right.

GEORGE STONEY: How far did you live from Main Street?

MABEL HELTON: I lived in West Gaston about half way to East Gaston and West Gaston.

JAMIE STONEY: So you were following this group of people around during the day?

MABEL HELTON: On the first day they came up to Parkdale to close it down, I was curious. So I didn't know what was going on really, but I just followed them around to see what was going to happen.

GEORGE STONEY: Now do you know some of these people, Claude?

CLAUDE HELTON: I don't recognize them.

GEORGE STONEY: Now this is Albert Hinson speaking at the Parkdale Mill.

MOVIE NARRATION: Ladies and gentlemen and fellow workers and the labor people at the Parkdale Mill. We come over here this morning to help you get better conditions with us at the Smyres Manufacturing Company which is the same - one of the same chain of mills as Parkdale. There's a few of you people here that 00:22:00belongs to this organization and we want you to join and set you up a union local here. I know you can have a good union local. We just talked with the superintendent. The first one that has to wait until 2:00 to stop off. I come out here and put it to a vote, and the people voted 100 percent to stop off now."

GEORGE STONEY: Then the cameraman changes his angle and he waits until -

MABEL HELTON: He gets -

MOVIE NARRATION: "I went back - I went back and had another conference with the superintendent and he asked me how long we'd give him to stop off which we 00:23:00realize that we have to give them time to raise our wage and take care of the roller because we want to work again. But we want better conditions when we work again. (cheering) (inaudible) I told him. We give him time to take the weight off of his roller and he didn't want [to injure them?]. And he asked me if we'd give him until 10:00 and I told him yes. He said he's stop off at 10:00.

GEORGE STONEY: Do you recognize that water tower?

CLAUDE HELTON: No.

MABEL HELTON: That's a double one. I don't know where that is.

GEORGE STONEY: Could that be the Parkdale Mill?

MABEL HELTON: It looks like it. It's changed so now, you know, you kind of forget.

GEORGE STONEY: Sure.

HELFAND: That's the flying squadron.

GEORGE STONEY: Do you think this is the crowd you followed around?

MABEL HELTON: (laughs) Well, it sounds kind of like them, but I wouldn't recognize any of them really.

CLAUDE HELTON: That's Firestone.

MABEL HELTON: That's Firestone there. Was Loray back then. And I really remember more about Firestone in, let's see, 1927-28 when they had a strike.

GEORGE STONEY: Twenty-nine.

MABEL HELTON: Well, right in there. Anyhow, I heard the shot that killed the chief of police. We lived a few houses from where they were meeting and they called in I guess it was the cavalry. They rode their horses around. And we weren't living in Firestone, but we lived close enough to - I remember it well.

GEORGE STONEY: This is back to Parkdale, I think. Claude, is that the kind of feeling that you had that day?

CLAUDE HELTON: Yeah, it was an awful feeling, but we didn't have any opposition from anybody out there that's, uh, calling us bad names or anything like that.

(movie playing)

HELFAND: Did you hear what he said, George?

JAMIE STONEY: We're heading for Dallas. Next town.

GEORGE STONEY: We're heading for Dallas, the man was saying. That was the next town. Uh, you were saying -

HELFAND: Excuse me, could we turn this off because if you want to talk there's a really bad flicker - audio flicker from here.

JAMIE STONEY: Just mute - hit the mute button. Oh, that's for that.

GEORGE STONEY: I'm sorry.

JAMIE STONEY: No problem.

GEORGE STONEY: Just hit the top. Cut it off for the time being. You were saying about, uh, how this - your thing was different from this.

MABEL HELTON: You said that you didn't have any opposition or anything.

CLAUDE HELTON: Yeah. There wasn't any yelling, you know, back and forth. Um, our group to the - to the workers that were wanting to go in. There wasn't any quarreling or, you know, fussing between our groups. Real quiet - all quiet.

GEORGE STONEY: What percent of the - what proportion of the people in the mill were on strike, do you think?

CLAUDE HELTON: Well, I suppose it must have been about at least 85 percent of them.

MABEL HELTON: I feel like that the average worker back then - now, this is just a personal opinion - you know, we weren't too educated and the first time anybody come in really a leader and get out here and let's go and they followed, just like sheep follow. That - that was my opinion. Where today 00:29:00it's much more organized, you know, and you know the details and all where these people came in and told them, well, we're going to get you shorter hours, we're going to get you more money and all this and they believed it.

GEORGE STONEY: Claude has been explaining how he felt about it.

CLAUDE HELTON: Yeah, you want me to -

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.

CLAUDE HELTON: Well I really wasn't concerned much about, you know, the conditions of the people at that time. What I was concerned about that more people would be put to work if we - if (inaudible) Six Hour Red's, uh, his speeches and that really sounded good to me. I was impressed with that. They would be (inaudible) and that would put lots more people to work. I guess 00:30:00that's the main thing that I was impressed with.

GEORGE STONEY: OK.

HELFAND: Mabel was saying that she knew about the '29 strike and we have the audio on so we might want to talk a little bit about that.

MABEL HELTON: About what?

GEORGE STONEY: About the '29 -

HELFAND: The shot that you heard.

MABEL HELTON: Well, I was just a child, you know, at that time, but we lived close enough. It just impressed me, really, you know. And -

GEORGE STONEY: I'm sorry, you have to - as though we never did know the story at all.

MABEL HELTON: Well, I don't know either.

GEORGE STONEY: No, but, I mean, just start and say, well, I heard that killed -

MABEL HELTON: Yeah, well, I did. We were out playing in the yard and we heard two shots and it wasn't long until we knew that - 'cause they were having the meeting about a block over and, uh, so I don't even remember all about it, but I do remember hearing the shot and know that Chief Aderholt was killed. And 00:31:00some other lady, some lady, but I can't remember her name.

JAMIE STONEY: And this was 1929?

MABEL HELTON: Mm-hmm.

JAMIE STONEY: Because we just need to say if it was that Firestone or the Loray.

MABEL HELTON: Yes, it was the Loray Mill, yeah.

JAMIE STONEY: In 1929.

MABEL HELTON: Nineteen twenty-nine and I - one thing that impressed me, too, was they called out the cavalry and they rode the pretty horses around, you know, and we'd run out to see the horses, and just things like that that impressed me.

CLAUDE HELTON: One - Wiggins woman was killed.

MABEL HELTON: That's what I said, there was a lady killed, but I'm afraid to call the name 'cause I'm not sure.

CLAUDE HELTON: I remember that it was a Wiggins. The lady was - I don't know what side she was on (inaudible).

MABEL HELTON: I don't know anything about the details on why they were killed, I mean, what led up to the killing or anything, but I remember that as a child.

HELFAND: Now, I wonder, George, if this had an - it doesn't seem to have a real effect on people joining in '34 -

GEORGE STONEY: We got that from him, Claude, this morning. Remember, we talked about that?

HELFAND: Mm-hmm.

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.

HELFAND: I just wonder, all we're talking about is defeat here, and, you know, I'm just - if you want to talk about people just remembering these big violent points, but all this didn't seem very violent now, did it? George?

GEORGE STONEY: You're asking a question.

MABEL HELTON: I didn't - I didn't - I didn't know who - I thought you were talking to him.

HELFAND: Well, I am, but I thought George might want to discuss it.

GEORGE STONEY: Um, what Judy's suggesting is that the things you remember of the death of sheriff and the violence there and then the violence here, but most of the time we see very little violence.

MABEL HELTON: That's true.

GEORGE STONEY: And I just wondered why it is that it's the violent stuff that sticks in people's minds.

MABEL HELTON: I guess it scares you, scares you. You know, you don't know what's going to happen next because my mother got us in the house, you know, and then we were scared of the strikers as kids. I don't know how the adults felt, you know.

JAMIE STONEY: But you seem to have two distinct memories. One of the gun shots and the other of the horses.

MABEL HELTON: Yeah, yeah.

JAMIE STONEY: So, on one side you've got a fear of, OK, there's somebody shooting at somebody, could be me, could be somebody else, and then you have this child-like memory of these big soldiers on horses.

MABEL HELTON: Yeah, yeah.

JAMIE STONEY: So, on one - but, we've heard - we've been to places where we've - you could take both hands and end up with people being shot. You know, nine, 10, 12 people, and a lot of just random violence, people being beaten up, that sort of thing, and we've - some people remember it a different 00:34:00way and I was wondering how - why, you know, you have two distinct memories of the same sort of thing. You know, one very bad and one kind of better.

MABEL HELTON: Well, I don't know - about that. The only thing I remember about the good - about the horses and all, it just impressed me, you know, when they come riding down 'cause we lived - the railroad was between us and Firestone and they'd come down - those pretty horses - and come down the railroad bank and all, you know, and it just impressed me.

HELFAND: Mabel said you went to work - George, you could ask this - that she went to work somewhere else during the strike. She [lived?] at Parkdale.

GEORGE STONEY: You were working at -

MABEL HELTON: I was working at Parkdale and I had married and, uh, so, my husband had a sister at Saxapahaw, down below Burlington, so she said, "C'mon down, we need help," so we just - we didn't have - we wasn't 00:35:00keeping house or anything, so we just lit out down there, packed and worked through the whole thing.

GEORGE STONEY: So you worked through the whole strike down in Saxapahaw.

MABEL HELTON: Yeah, mm-hmm, sure did. I was just glad to be working, you know. I didn't see how I could be out tromping the road. And I've heard that some of the men, Claude's age or older, they laughed about - they told him they was gonna beat him. You remember Forrest Clark carrying on about that truck coming down there. He said, "Boy, the food truck was coming. The food truck was coming." He was a character anyway. He got there and had some fatback and what on it.

CLAUDE HELTON: Nah, I don't - I know that most of things they'd bought -- bought was fatback (inaudible).

HELFAND: I can't help it. It fell off - the microphone did.

GEORGE STONEY: I'm sorry.

HELFAND: You were talking about the truck.

MABEL HELTON: Me?

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.

JAMIE STONEY: You remember it was fatback and -

MABEL HELTON: You had this friend, it was a standing joke with him, you know, and he's laugh about the strike and union and, uh, he's say - they told him the food truck was coming and he - it was late at night, he said, and said did holler, "Here comes the truck!" He got there and it had a little fatback on it. (phone ringing) Excuse me. Y'all can just go on without me.

GEORGE STONEY: OK.

HELFAND: Why don't we just wait a second.

(break in audio; break in video)

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah, you want to tell about the truck and then Claude has got something to say, OK?

MABEL HELTON: Well, he said, "Here comes the truck."

GEORGE STONEY: No, no - give the man's name.

MABEL HELTON: Oh, Forrest Clark. He was a jokester. He always had something to say. He's not living now, but he'd always go on about the food truck was coming, the food truck was coming and when they got there they had a little bit of fatback and a few pinto beans or something like that. They was - he'd just 00:37:00make a big deal out of it.

CLAUDE HELTON: Well, I just tried to say that all during that time there was no violence on anybody's part that I know about now. So, it was a peaceful strike.

JAMIE STONEY: We've had some people who were - who we met who were locked up by the Guard down in Georgia who said they hadn't eaten that good in a long time, 'cause they had locked up down in Noonan and around Hogansville they had locked up some people, arrest them and put them in sort of a holding pen, and they had to feed them. And some of these people said they hadn't eaten that well in a long time and they said if this is the way it'll be I'll - keep me! (laughter)

HELFAND: George, do you want to show them the rest of it?

GEORGE STONEY: Uh, I don't think so. I think we've seen enough of that.

HELFAND: OK.

GEORGE STONEY: OK.

HELFAND: You know, what's startling is that all we really hear about is the strike part, but all this organization was really something. You know, you said you've 85 percent of your mill somewhat organized -

CLAUDE HELTON: Yeah, I was - that's a good percentage of a number of the people who had their names. You saw it on the book. I'd fill out a card -

MABEL HELTON: But the union didn't win. I don't know how that worked. They may have come out here and all - now, I might be talking out of turn, but the mill never was organized.

CLAUDE HELTON: No, not recognized.

GEORGE STONEY: It wasn't recognized as a union.

CLAUDE HELTON: It'd been 85 percent or - but no - nothing that I know of that had happened that would call for a recognition of who was union and who was not and 00:39:00never (inaudible) that I know of.

GEORGE STONEY: Not like now where you have formal elections.

CLAUDE HELTON: That's right.

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.

HELFAND: Did the union ever come back? George, why don't you ask him about that?

GEORGE STONEY: We talked about that this morning.

HELFAND: But Mabel wasn't around then.

GEORGE STONEY: Oh, well, did the union ever come back?

MABEL HELTON: Yes. They did at the Flint. I guess it must have been about '44 or '45 or it might have been after the war, I don't know. But anyhow, I know they come back and tried to organize and they lost. I don't remember just exactly what year it was.

CLAUDE HELTON: There was no revival at the Groves, I know of.

MABEL HELTON: The reason I remember it so well was I was sick and they wanted to send [Amos?] out there to get me to vote, you know. (laughs) I said no way.

GEORGE STONEY: How would you have voted?

MABEL HELTON: Well, I don't think I would have voted for it.

GEORGE STONEY: Mm-hmm.

MABEL HELTON: Now, I know my husband, he - you know, he was kind of the quiet, too, and they was really pressuring him. I said, "You don't have to say yea nor nay when you go in there and vote the way you want to." Because the, I don't know, they just never did prove to me. Of course I know that you know that if we hadn't had the union somewhere, we wouldn't have been where we are today in the workplace. I realize that and, uh, I just never did vote for one.

GEORGE STONEY: Could you explain what you mean by that?

MABEL HELTON: Why I didn't vote for one?

GEORGE STONEY: No, why do you think that we wouldn't have gotten where we are today if we didn't have unions.

MABEL HELTON: Well, I don't think the mill owners and things would ever let labor progress. You know, it - we just wouldn't had the chance if they wasn't afraid of something backing them a little bit. And, uh, so when one got it, the other had to go along with it.

GEORGE STONEY: It's interesting, we were talking with a government mediator the other day who was very experienced at that time and he was telling us how after the NRA got declared unconstitutional, he worked - went into the mills and how they were persuaded to keep up the - keep the hours down and so forth and 00:42:00how the mill owners did work together.

MABEL HELTON: Yeah, 'cause one couldn't do it and the other not do it, you know, because there really wasn't that much qualified help, you know.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, how did you know what was happening in the other mills?

MABEL HELTON: Well, I - we didn't really know. You know, management just handled that, but, you know, it was close community and people wasn't outgoing and setting in front of TVs and all that and so - you just knew what was going on and in the gazette always kept up on everything and kept you informed.

GEORGE STONEY: But, say if a mill in South Carolina paid a little more money, how would the word get back here?

MABEL HELTON: Well, I don't know unless it be word by word of mouth or, you know, or some reporter would find out about it and report it. Some of the good help would go to leaving because people didn't mind moving back then, you know. And if he had four or five people working in his family, he'd have pretty good pull, you know.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, why didn't you live in a mill house?

MABEL HELTON: Well, at that time, as well as I can remember, they wanted more than - more than one person and my mother was the bread winner in our family. And she was a good worker, but they never would let her just have a mill house. So we rented a house all the time.

GEORGE STONEY: Because she was the only person in the family who -

MABEL HELTON: Worked until I went to work. I was the oldest, yeah.

GEORGE STONEY: And you never got a mill house then?

MABEL HELTON: Mm-mm. Never did - well, we did earlier - my father was an alcoholic and while he was with the family working some, we lived on the mill hill, but when mother had to take it on her own then she didn't have enough - she had a hard time with five kids and having to rent a house, but we made it. That's the reason I went to work. She pulled me out of school. (laughs) And I was so glad. My sister, ten years younger than me, she says, "You know what I remember?" and I said, "What?" She says, "Mother coming in so thrilled and saying Mabel, Mabel, I got you a job!" (laughs)

GEORGE STONEY: Did you hate to leave school?

MABEL HELTON: Well, in a way I did, but I went to night school and done different things, you know, and at that time it was more important for the pay day and I knew it, so it didn't bother me that much. Didn't bother me that much.

JAMIE STONEY: Do you remember what your first week's pay was?

MABEL HELTON: Seven dollars and 20 cents for 12 hours a day and must have - I think it's about six hours on Saturday.

JAMIE STONEY: So, it's five -

MABEL HELTON: I mean, it's 11 hours really. You got an hour for dinner from six to six with an hour for -

JAMIE STONEY: A five and half day week.

MABEL HELTON: Mm-hmm. Seven dollars and 20 cent.

JAMIE STONEY: Now you had - you said that you felt that unions have changed things for us today, even so far as we've had some people, um, say that because of the union, a lot of their employers gave them a lot of things just to keep the union out. We've had people at - some people at Pepperell, down in Alabama, who said, "Well, we've got what they have in a union plant because they just don't want a union, but they'll give us the health insurance, they'll give us vacation plans, that sort of thing." Now, do you feel that that's because of other unions coming in?

MABEL HELTON: Well, I feel like it is because even in the later years in working for Burlington, I was in the IE department and naturally I associated with everybody in the plant, and in our meetings I was told, you know, this thing, you know, we give you the same thing that they've got and I remember one of the Burlington plants was organized and, uh, one of the instructors was saying, "We're giving you a raise, but they're gonna fight for theirs." (laughs) That struck me, you know. Yeah, we're giving you a raise, but they're gonna fight for theirs.

GEORGE STONEY: Well, some people have told me that the most important thing about having a union is not hours and wages so much as having somebody to speak for you or help you speak with the boss about things like shift assignments and, 00:47:00uh, being treated rough by the boss and so forth.

MABEL HELTON: Well, that's true, too, but the big companies, the wise companies, you know, they set up this system. You can go take - I refer back to Burlington 'cause that's where I was all these years - but you can go plum to the top man in Greensboro if you take it step by step, and they - I have known two or three that have really won over some injustices. So, you just don't know, you know.

JAMIE STONEY: Primarily, we've had a lot of women tell us that if it wasn't for the union, they felt like they really didn't have anybody. Single women, single mothers - it's - they were worried about, well, nobody's going to look out for me if I'm alone. And we all know that people do things which are not nice or which are not fair and everybody plays favorites at times, and, so, 00:48:00do you feel that by having a union you've got - that can be controlled to some extent or at least somebody else looking out for you?

MABEL HELTON: Well, I never, you know, as I say, I never was in the union, but, uh, I guess that, uh, like I said, referring back to what I said before, they knew they had to do - the companies had to do something to keep up with what's going on or they would come in and organize.

GEORGE STONEY: One more thing I would like to ask you about. In some places we found evidence in the records of what's now referred to as sexual harassment. Was that a problem in the mills here?

MABEL HELTON: It was, yes, it was. It definitely was. It definitely was.

GEORGE STONEY: How was that handled?

MABEL HELTON: Well, it wasn't reported. You just handled it yourself and done the best you could with it, you know, and you go on. You took it most of the time and just turned your back and shrugged it off and keep going. And one thing I keep referring black - back to, uh, I worked out in the plant up until when they insisted that they bring blacks in and different things - it's really insisted, you know, and they had to do so much, and I was the type of person I - went every - done ever - whatever needed to be done. I didn't have no job. Whatever they called for I did and, uh, so when they had their meeting on it, the personnel man says, "Well, now, if we're gonna do all that and bring in all these blacks and have to push them to the top and all," says, "What are we gonna do about people like Mabel? Let's give her a life 00:50:00here." So, they put me in IE and I wasn't - I mean, you know, I never did ask for the job. Well, I worked in that job for 15 years and that's when I said I was in contact with all the people in the plant and, so, uh, that was one reason that I got promoted. But they - you know, now they have - I feel like a reason a lot of women's got to be fixers and all the men won't - they want to do something else. And then they get out and all this - I don't know. I'm not been in there in 10 years, so, I don't know.

GEORGE STONEY: Do you remember any blacks in the mill when you were working?

MABEL HELTON: Oh, yeah. When I left it was about the second and third shift was 95 percent black and, you know, we had, uh, already, you know, they had black supervisors and, uh, things like that, and, uh, they had one black lady that was 00:51:00a supervisor on the first shift in the carding room, and, uh, and when I went in IE, the man immediately over me, he was black. He had got that job due to that. He had come out of the plant. Then when they took me in for the interview, you know, they told me they knew I was the type of person that I could handle, like, you know, some people had so much prejudice, you know. They couldn't work with the blacks and all that, and, uh, I was kind of a trouble shooter all the way through. (laughs)

GEORGE STONEY: Well, thinking back to when you first went in the mill, uh, did you see any blacks in the mill then?

MABEL HELTON: Oh, nothing but the cleaning crews. They used to have the cleaning crews and they would line up seven and eight across with the men with their brooms and their brushes and scrub the floor, you know, and that would - other than that, you know, unloading the cotton and just those kind of jobs. Nobody was in the mill whatsoever. I remember when the first black lady come in the plant and, uh, she had real good personality and she made it real good. She's kind of a pioneer, too, you know.

GEORGE STONEY: Did you ever question that when you were first working in the mills?

MABEL HELTON: When I was first working in the mills? No, because it was just a way of life. You just - I just never did - never did even question it at all.

GEORGE STONEY: I'm with you because I grew up in - I never questioned why there weren't blacks in my school.

MABEL HELTON: Yeah.

GEORGE STONEY: It didn't even occur to me until I went to Chapel Hill, and then we started - I was in the YMCA and Frank Graham started bringing some blacks onto the campus. And suddenly we were - got very self-conscious about this, but it never occurred to me before. It was just the way that I was brought up.

MABEL HELTON: Well, we didn't know anything else. You know, you just went your way and, uh...

GEORGE STONEY: But you had the - you were telling me about your mother having a black servant.

MABEL HELTON: No, I don't think - she never did have a black servant.

GEORGE STONEY: I'm sorry - I'm missing it.

MABEL HELTON: You believe you got mixed up.

GEORGE STONEY: I've got you mixed up with somebody else. That's right. I'm sorry. Yeah, yeah.

MABEL HELTON: No, we never did have anybody like that as family. Well, you know, after I was married sometimes I'd get somebody to do my washing in the 00:54:00wintertime or my ironing or something like that. But other than that we didn't have any help.

HELFAND: Can I ask a favor?

GEORGE STONEY: Uh-huh.

HELFAND: Could - um - we were really wide when she was talking about the first black lady and maybe we could ask her the same question and just have a close-up from over here. Would that be OK, George?

GEORGE STONEY: Mm-hmm.

HELFAND: Because it was such a beautiful (inaudible) story.

GEORGE STONEY: The first, uh.

HELFAND: The first time - the first black lady.

GEORGE STONEY: See, she's watching the monitor so she can see -

MABEL HELTON: What do you want?

HELFAND: George will ask you.

GEORGE STONEY: Uh, could you tell us about the first, uh, when did you remember the first black women in the mills. Give her a name if you can.

MABEL HELTON: Well, I can't - I was trying to think of her name, but I can't. I can see her just as good, but I can't remember her name. But, 00:55:00anyway, she come walking down through there and she was very friendly and outgoing, you know, and I think everybody stopped work (laughs).

HELFAND: Excuse me. I'm not getting any sound.

GEORGE STONEY: OK, we'll start again.

JAMIE STONEY: George, you've got sound. I just disconnected your cable.

HELFAND: Oh.

JAMIE STONEY: OK, go. You're clear.

HELFAND: Yeah, thank you.

GEORGE STONEY: Thank you, Jamie. OK, now, I'm going to start after you say, uh, I'm going to tell you about the - when the first black person came in the mill and she was a pioneer. Why don't you start that way.

MABEL HELTON: OK, when the first black lady came walking in the plant I could see her yet she was very friendly and outgoing and she'd go down through there throwing up her hands. I'm sure that she had been instructed that she had to do that, you know. I think everybody just about quit working because they were shocked. We already had some black men that worked in the carding, which they had brought in a few, but now, like, uh, the one that was promoted to IE, 00:56:00Industrial Engineer, he was under him. Now he had worked in the card room and, uh, but he was [uneducated?], and, so, it was just very unusual the first one then the other one came in, you know.

GEORGE STONEY: Claude, were you working in the mills when the blacks started working there?

CLAUDE HELTON: No.

GEORGE STONEY: It was after your time?

MABEL HELTON: He was talking about - he was talking about a while ago about sexual harassment and things like that. I don't remember to awful much about things like that; you just accept it, but when I went to work in IE there was two of us on the same job, a man and me. He made 50 cent more on the hour than 00:57:00I did. He sat and played the ball games with all the guys and they just had a ball and I did all the work. (laughs) That's the truth! Oh, buddy, buddy, just going, going. No Mabel (inaudible). But that's a long time ago.

CLAUDE HELTON: There wasn't any sexual harassment on my part. (laughter) I was too bashful.

GEORGE STONEY: Do you recall any accusations of that when you were working there?

CLAUDE HELTON: No. I believe our mill was better type people than (inaudible).

MABEL HELTON: He was just always a timid type person. He just wasn't in on any of it. That was it.

HELFAND: One more question. Could you ask them what it's like to see this footage of the (inaudible) background.

GEORGE STONEY: OK, uh, this - all of this - that we've been talking about must give you a different feeling of history, history of the textile. Could you talk about what this means to you if it does mean anything to you?

MABEL HELTON: Well, I don't - I don't know that it means anything to me only I know in a way they have better working conditions, but other than that, I've been out 10 years, so that - that's a long time and things do change. But, 00:59:00uh, I'm not against the union or anything, we just went through the freightliner strike with my grandson and granddaughter and, uh, he didn't come out. He got - oh, it was - well, my granddaughter's husband - they didn't any of them come out. He said, "I'm going to work, me and my buddy." For he says, "I was working for $5.35 an hour when I got this job," and I don't know what they make, 12 or 13, somewhere along there, and he says, "I'm not going to strike." So, they - of course she works in the office. She had, you know, but anyway, it was real bad because it got kind of rough when they'd go into work. Him and his buddy'd get together and go in together. So, I - I don't know what's right and what's wrong, but I felt like - they 01:00:00were making more money than anybody in Gaston County. Why would they strike?