GEORGE STONEY: OK, you can say that on camera when -- when, what --
FRANK MILLER: What I was gonna tell ya a while a go is...now let me see -- if I
don't say it when I'm thinking it, my mind is --GEORGE STONEY: I know; I know.
HELFAND: You were talking about the newspaper.
FRANK MILLER: Yeah. The newspaper's always been a Cannon mill newspaper, a
Democratic newspaper. Always has. Now I'm not a Democrat or a Republican. I vote for the man. See, I vote for the man, not the party. But Concord Tribune here is the only paper we've got in Concord. And it's always been against union; it's always been against anything that wasn't Democratic, the Democrat Party, you'd say. 00:01:00GEORGE STONEY: Well back to that time when you were a weaver and then you -- Red
Lisk told you the strike was going. How'd you get news about the strike?FRANK MILLER: How'd I get news about it? Now, I don't remember that. They
just said we was going out on strike, and so we all went out.ELLEN MILLER: Did your mill go out?
FRANK MILLER: Yeah, yeah, when went out it with the Brown Mill and...I know I --
I'd married Dee in '34. And I was staying with my father-in-law. And I gave him -- I bought it -- I believe it was [suited?] -- a brand new rug or something, put it down in the room. And I traded in that I believe it was for a 00:02:00suit of clothes, or either, I traded my suit of clothes for a rug. (laughter) That was [some way to ten?]. No, I give him the rug for my board. That's the way it went. I didn't trade them, but I did give him the rug that I put down in there for the board, you'd say, for my board. But back then, it didn't cost too much, you see. When I come up -- let me say this, when I come up as a young fellow, back during the Depression, I had five children. Well I could go to town with seven or eight dollars and buy enough groceries along then? to do my family for two weeks. That's all we need a lot of fatback. Maybe you don't know what that is, fatback meat. (laughs) And didn't know what milk gravy was. Put water in it; let it get thick. So you take a -- and we'd eat a lot of that for breakfast. Didn't know what canned biscuits was. Well, I'd get up and make out a homemade biscuits, say. And eat some of it with 00:03:00homemade molasses, you know. And on payday, when we got our payday, then you get a little ham meat or something like that. And boy, that was good. So you could buy a dozen eggs back then for a nickel. Loaf of bread, maybe a nickel. And made it pretty hard to get a hold of them nickels along then, you know. Stuff didn't cost too much, but we didn't make enough.GEORGE STONEY: Well when the people are on strike, did the union have any kind
of, uh, groceries for them or anything like that?FRANK MILLER: No, huh-uh. See, that was one thing too, but the main thing was,
about getting a union, back then -- they've got a better chance now and in Kannaoplis, then they've ever had. Because they -- some people lived in the mill housing, but like I said to start way back on, see, about all these mills had mill homes -- houses. And the people that worked for them, they'd let 00:04:00them move in those homes. See, now I lived in that -- that I moved in. I didn't live it in very long because I never did live on the mill. I'd always you rent me a house somewhere and -- but they didn't charge you too much rent. I think the house that I moved in, they charged me 25 cent a room a month, you see. And that's the way was. Anyways, about four dollars a month for house rent. They furnished my water and I had a little light [be?] because they went through the company too. That's about all you had to pay. But you get to thinking about having to move out of one of those houses, and lose your job on top of it, place like this, why, you was out. That -- there was the 00:05:00problem with the people about a union. They couldn't hardly afford it to add a family to get tangled up with it and get theirself [far?] to have to move out the -- out the company house.GEORGE STONEY: And yet we go back to those newspapers and they said that 280,000
southern people came out.FRANK MILLER: Mm-hmm. They might have came out, but I'll guarantee you one
thing, they didn't stay out long. (laughs) They didn't stay out long. 'Cause you see what you do, is that you either come back to work or you're gonna move. So therefore, the people had a choice to either go back in, or had to move out of the house. Well, where were they gonna move? They had nowhere to move.GEOREGE STONEY: Well after that year, do you remember any kind of effort to organize?
FRANK MILLER: No, I don't believe -- I don't believe while I was there, I
don't believe they ever tried anymore to organize. Nobody ever did try to 00:06:00organize anymore, after I came out the mill. But I used to enjoy trying to help the organizing, because I knew that the people weren't -- you know, we weren't getting paid enough and they were working us hard. We had to work hard, but after I got to fixing loom, I had a good job. I enjoyed it. I really did, I had a good job.GEORGE STONEY: Let me ask you about a couple of the other leaders that you might
have heard about or met through Red. Do you remember a fellow named Paul Christopher?FRANK MILLER: Paul Christopher?
GEORGE STONEY: From Shelby.
FRANK MILLER: No, but there's one fellow here but I can't remember his name,
he came here to try to organize back in the...uh, let's see. I don't remember when that was. But whenever we went out on a strike or anything, he tried to organize. And I was trying to have him to get organized. We had 00:07:00another preacher boy and he's a preacher now, but we never was able -- we were about to get ourselves far and we never did get organized. So we just quit [basically?]. But I don't know what that boy's name was that came to do the organizing. Uh, I know we went to Charlotte, to a Chinese restaurant and went out with him different places, you know, helping people. But I can't remember what his name was.GEORGE STONEY: Could it have been Alton Lawrence?
FRANK MILLER: I just wouldn't know. If you called it, I wouldn't know.
GEORGE STONEY: (laughter) OK, all right. Yeah. Now you told Judy when she was
talking with you, you told her something about Red Lisk meeting with Charlie Cannon. Could you tell us about that? 00:08:00FRANK MILLER: I don't where he -- did I tell you he met with Charlie Cannon?
JUDITH HELFAND: Can we hold on for one second?
FRANK MILLER: Now I don't know. I have an idea he had; I don't know whether
he did or not, but I have an idea he might have since he was an organizer like he was and --GEORGE STONEY: I may have gotten that mixed up.
HELFAND: Well you know what I think he did --
FRANK MILLER: No, I believe what I might have told you, my first wife's uncle,
he led a group up during the strikes, down at the Gibson Mill. I had Cannon mill. And he lost his job because of that. And they said he never would go to work down there anymore. Well, he went up into the mountains, stayed a while, and come back. And he went to Gibson mill, and they wouldn't talk to him about a job. So one evening, he done went up to old man Charlie Cannon's 00:09:00house. No more can -- he never went high in school, but he -- he knows -- I mean, he could talk like a lawyer. I mean, he was self-educated. And he went up to old man Charlie's house, knocked on the door. And said the butler come and he asked him if Charlie was there. He said, "Yeah. Wait just a moment." And a little bit, he come back, told him to follow him, and went out on his sun porch. And said I didn't have but one cigarette, he said, "You know that? I offered it to him," and he said, "that bird took my last cigarette." And so I told him I'd like to go to work, because I'd worked down at the Gibson mill and I'd like to go back to work down there. He said, "All right, you go on back down there. I believe it was on Monday morning, they'll have a job for you." And he thanked him and left. And he went down there and the superintendent saw him and said, "Hey Ed," said, "got a job for you." Said, "I know you have." (laughs) And he told him what shift 00:10:00he wanted him to go to work on. [And that was it?]. They had old man Charlie call down, told put him back to work. So I don't know.GEORGE STONEY: Well we do know that a lot of people got fired here. We got
record from the National Archives of that --FRANK MILLER: Yup.
GEORGE STONEY: And we've got the names and all of that. And the union then
kept carrying on this case over and over for about three or four years, and some of them did get some back pay.HELFAND: Actually, can you frame it this way?
GEORGE STONEY: Mm-hmm.
HELFAND: That L.A. -- should [I do it?] --
GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.
HELFAND: Actually, from what I understand, L.A. Cook, who just lived around the
block, couple blocks away from here, do you remember him?FRANK MILLER: Yes. L.A. Cook. I knew some Cook, but now --
HELFAND: Lester Cook.
FRANK MILLER: Lester, yeah, I knew Lester.
00:11:00HELFAND: Lester Cook and Red Lisk, they put -- they filed a case when the labor
board against the Cannon Mills because of discrimination against joining the union and being fired, not being able to get their jobs back.FRANK MILLER: Uh-huh. But I don't remember whether Red ever said anything
about getting any money out of 'em or not. Now I don't know.HELFAND: They waged a case for about three and a half, four years.
FRANK MILLER: They might've -- the might've got something. I don't know.
I --STONEY: They finally -- they finally got something.
FRANK MILLER: Yeah. And him being a brother-in-law, he might not have told me
about it no way. He might have -- he thought maybe I might have wanted to borrow some of it. (laughter)HELFAND: But what's extraordinary it seems about that is that even after these
people got fired and they didn't have their jobs, they stuck together as a -- as a union here in Concord and said, "I'm not going to take that from you. I'm going to fight the mill's decision."FRANK MILLER: Well, it's the same way they did right up here in the Cannon
Mill right now, see. Now they got them in court, but the mill company said 00:12:00they'll keep dragging this thing out, dragging it out. Well these people, you see. And so that's why a lot of people living -- don't go for that, see. They're not going to stick their neck out for the union and know if I get myself far, that it's gonna be drug out so long that I'll [start that time?] that I'll get any money out of them. Now that's what they said they're gonna do here in Gunner Mill, that they wanted to -- the labor won the case, you know, them people. They're gonna appeal it and drag it out and drag it out...until them people 'bout be on [tar base?], and like to get something else.GEORGE STONEY: I've got a hard question I'd like to ask you.
FRANK MILLER: Yeah?
GEORGE STONEY: We were talking day before yesterday with a fellow who was a
00:13:00Sunday school superintendent in -- and he became a secretary of the local. And he was a good secretary and it was a good local and all of that, and he told us all about that. He was very proud of that. And he told about standing in the back gate of the mills and keeping people from coming in and all of that. And he says, now I look back on it, I'm not sure that was a Christian thing to do. He's a Baptist, by the way.FRANK MILLER: Yeah.
GEORGE STONEY: What do you think about that?
FRANK MILLER: Well, I don't see any harm in it. I believe the Lord intends us
to fight for our rights, stand up for our rights, you know. And so I don't feel guilty about anything that I did trying to sign people up in the mill to try to better ourselves. Well, the Lord said he wanted us to have a full life, (laughs) he wanted us to have a full -- a full life. And we couldn't have no 00:14:00full life with the condition we was in. (laughs) But I didn't see any harm in it. You didn't force 'em to stay out. You was asking not to go in, you see. And then [let to your?]. I don't see any harm in that.GEORGE STONEY: Did you know any of the fellows from the home guard? Could you
tell -- remember how they behaved or anything?FRANK MILLER: No, right offhand, I couldn't tell you. Of course, what I think
most -- I don't believe they used our home guard down here. They'd bring them in from another town. I believe that's what it was. If I'm not mistaken now, it wasn't our own hometown boys, it was out of town home guards, you see, they'd bring in that didn't know the people and we didn't know them.GEORGE STONEY: You're absolutely right because I -- from the papers, they
00:15:00would say, the one from Winston-Salem would come to here; the one from here would go to somewhere else. Yeah, that's the way they did it.FRANK MILLER: Because you see, a lot of these boys that was in the home guard
here, they worked in the mill. Yeah, most of them worked in the mill. And they couldn't afford to put them against their own daddy and their own family. So that's -- that's kind of the way that worked. But it was a -- the people in the cotton mills back then, [had?] somebody say that they had a hard time.GEORGE STONEY: Was the work hard?
FRANK MILLER: Oh yeah, it was hard. I'm -- I worked in the mill and I run 14
looms when I was weaving. And I'm going to tell you the truth, by the time you get up to one end, the battery's -- if you know anything about a loom, the battery's be empty down at the other end and (laughs) had -- I got so 00:16:00disgusted I just let them all knock off and go over and get a drink of water and stand around a while and go back, see. Start all over again. And after I got to fixing looms, it wasn't -- it wasn't that bad.GEORGE STONEY: The -- a lot of the people talked to us about the stretch out.
What was that?FRANK MILLER: Well, in a stretch out, like -- I was up at the Greenburger Mill.
Well they had a man from their mill in there and what would you call him? All he does was walked around, watched the people. When one went to the bathroom, he would watch how long he was in the bathroom. When he'd eat his lunch, he'd watch how long he'd eat his lunch. And then he'd figure out, well now, he's taking [a rush more?]. If he was running 14 looms, they'd stretch him out to 20 looms, see? Give him 20 looms. You had to have a man walking around watching how long you -- took you to go to the spigot and get a drink of 00:17:00water, how long you stayed in the bathroom, how long it took you to eat your lunch. And anything you'd done, how long it took you to do it. And see, they figured out like that one out here, he could have went to bathroom in so many minutes; he could have went to the water fountain in so many minutes; he could have eat his lunch in a certain time, you know, so many minutes. And all -- everything you'd done, there'd be somebody behind or somebody watching you, you see, and writing it down. And then it -- he'd come along and [said why?] instead of running 14 looms, we can give him 20 looms, you see? So that's stretch out. That's the way they do it.GEORGE STONEY: Did you feel that?
FRANK MILLER: No. Of course, I got the -- now, when I was in the mill, I'm
like this: I always wanted to better myself. I started; I was sweeping in the 00:18:00mill and worked myself up to head loom fixer in the mill. This is high as I could do it except the foremen who are overseeing. And that's when I quit and started to preach, you see. But I've been a man all my life that always wanted to better his-self, you know, though I didn't have too much education. But I always wanted to better myself. And so many people we've got today don't want to better themselves. They want to just stay where they are. That's why I believed in the union. I believed in a man trying to better hisself.GEORGE STONEY: Now there have been so many changes since -- since what time
we're talking about, uh, [were there?] -- there many blacks in the mill at the time when you --FRANK MILLER: No, no there wasn't -- if they'd have one in there, he'd be
maybe mopping the floors or something like that. And, uh -- all -- and the 00:19:00mills weren't -- as clean as they are today in -- I mean, old cotton lint would be flying around and you'd go up in the card room where old lint flying around, man, you went and you touched, scratched your nose [and you're there?] inhaling that old lint and so forth. (laughs) And over there where I worked, well, chew tobacco and just spit a big gob down the floor, just spit on the floor. In between them looms where I had to go down and pick a lot of the time, there'd be gobs of snuff down in there, you know. And I got to go around every so often with a hose, you know, [make down?], cleaning out under the (laughter) -- I [tell you just?] a little bit in the back and he had [sins in there?]. I don't, uh, chew it, I just dip a little bit of it because I smoked for about 60 years and I thought of putting in a little pinch of that in my mouth, and I smoked 60 years, and you know, I ain't smoked a cigarette in six, 00:20:00seven years. (laughs)GEOREGE STONEY: Good for you. That's hard though, isn't it?
FRANK MILLER: Yup -- no, it don't bother me now. It don't bother me. I
[had load?] up with a little pinch of that in my lip. I can't chew it, I just kind of put a little piece in there and dip it, you know. You get the taste of tobacco.GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.
FRANK MILLER: But [they had?], there've been a lot of changes in the mill from
what are -- was when I was in there. In fact, [if?] I'd go and see their looms now, I wouldn't even -- I wouldn't even know, tell you. They've got them things going across, pulling -- I mean, my dad talked about that long years before it was ever invented. And we talked about [our?], you know. But we wasn't a drafter or anything like that. (laughs) Engineer. But we talked 00:21:00about it. And then later on, it came out. See instead of a shuttle and a loom, now they've got that thing that goes across and grabs the thread. But they always told us the loom had to have a salvage the cloth that to have a salvage on one side of it, see. And you don't.But there's a lot that's different today now. What they tell me, the mills
are clean. I haven't been in one in a long time, but they still tell me that when you go and [count a field credit?] and get a job, you got a job. The weavers tell me now you work from the time you go in to the time you come out, that you work. But they make good money.GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.
FRANK MILLER: There's one lady that tell me, said she had made high as $100 a
day, see, at the mill. Well Lord, I didn't make that much in a whole month hardly when I(laughter) was in the mill.GEORGE STONEY: She was --
00:22:00FRANK MILLER: But she said you work for it. Yeah, said you work for it. And
she said, I don't make that all the time; just once in a while you might get it.GEORGE STONEY: Well in your -- in --
HELFAND: Excuse, I want to move --
GEORGE STONEY: Sure, OK --
HELFAND: Can we take a minute for me to readjust --
GEORGE STONEY: Sure, yes. [We'll take?]. Just watch your shadow.
HELFAND: Yeah.
JAMIE STONEY: This is looking fine. Sorry.
GEORGE STONEY: OK.
JAMIE STONEY: [Can you shrug?] in here?
GEORGE STONEY: Sure.
FRANK MILLER: Everything cut off down there.
GEORGE STONEY: Yes, sure.
FRANK MILLER: Now let me -- let me tell you (inaudible).
GEORGE STONEY: OK. (phone rings)
FRANK MILLER: (inaudible) the barrel right now -- honey, would you get that?
They got it across the barrel right now. I don't know a thing about the water meters or light meters or anything like that. I got a light bill here last week for $633.GEORGE STONEY: What?
FRANK MILLER: Yeah.
GEORGE STONEY: Of, for heav--
FRANK MILLER: I thought he come put a new meter out here, and I never looked at
00:23:00my meter. And I went down and got [a new one?]. I always paid my light bill. She said I wouldn't -- she wouldn't -- said all of her customers are paying like I did. And said my meter was slow. The old meter they took off was slow --GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.
FRANK MILLER: I said, "Well lady, I didn't know nothing about that.
(laughter) I didn't -- my neighbors have one. They were paying light and water and sewage bills, you see." They still got us [done?] over the barrel in a way. And she said, "Well," said, "we made a mistake there." I said, "Yeah, but I ain't supposed to have to pay for your mistake." Said, "Yeah, but the law says we can make you pay for it." Now I got to pay them $45.07 a month above my regular light bill for one year till I pay that 600 dol-- 500 and something dollars off.GEORGE STONEY: That's, that --
JAMIE STONEY: Are they trying to tag you with interest or just the principle?
00:24:00FRANK MILLER: No, they're going to charge me tax. I called the mayor up, but
he wasn't in. (laughter) Yeah, I done talked to --GEORGE STONEY: Uh, is it --
FRANK MILLER: -- one when it's over the light --
GEORGE STONEY: Oh, the city owns the light?
FRANK MILLER: Yeah.
GEORGE STONEY: OK.
FRANK MILLER: And she read me the law, you know. And I'm hoping to see old
Corey Privet -- he's running for congress; he's in legislature up there now -- I'm hoping to see him. I know Corey well. He used to be a Baptist preacher.GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.
FRANK MILLER: And I'm going to get him to find out why I would have to pay a
bill like that, because I was paying light bills, but it wasn't enough, you see?GEORGE STONEY: Yeah, yeah. That's -- that's --
FRANK MILLER: She told me, said, "You ought to have known you wasn't paying
enough light bills and come down here and told us." I said, "Lady, I'd have been crazy." I said, "I didn't know how much my light bill was or what other" -- [break in audio] This would be an antique box here. (pause; 00:25:00background conversation) Yeah, this would be an antique box.JAMIE STONEY: What you got in there?
FRANK MILLER: Oh, I don't know. No [medicine?] thing here, bottle of old herb
medicines and old [key to the house?]. I don't know. Let me get [a will one?] sit down [son of mine?] can find something in here. I ain't looked in these box in a long time. But that box right there [I bet you?]...I have my social security number and everything on it.JAMIE STONEY: Well, that's a Havannah cigar, you know it's a long time old.
FRANK MILLER: [From when I was born?], social security number. There's your NRA.
GEORGE STONEY: Yeah, that's -- yeah, we do our part. That's the old NRA sign.
FRANK MILLER: Yeah, that's when it first come out. (laughs) Oh here's a
00:26:00picture of a bunch of my preacher friends back when I was preaching. See here?GEORGE STONEY: Uh-huh.
JAMIE STONEY: Which one are you?
FRANK MILLER: I'm way back here in the back somewhere. I believe that's --
wait a minute; let me find it -- let me find myself. I can't even find myself. See, I've had laser surgery on my eye. I'm back here in the back somewhere. I believe that's me right here. Can't hardly see me.ELLEN MILLER: It is.
FRANK MILLER: Mm-hmm.
GEORGE STONEY: When was this taken?
ELLEN MILLER: No --
GEORGE STONEY: You want [it spotty?].
FRANK MILLER: See if it's on the back. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)
ELLEN MILLER: It's all right. Yeah, that's you --
FRANK MILLER: Here's an old book I had on herb medicine, home remedies, you know?
GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.
FRANK MILLER: This is an old book I have on herb medicine, home remdies.
[That's pretty?] (inaudible). (laughs)GEORGE STONEY: Oh yes, I've seen these. Like the old almanacs, you remember those?
00:27:00FRANK MILLER: Yeah. No, that wasn't no almanac. That's just all about herb medicine.
GEORGE STONEY: Yeah, yeah. [pause]
FRANK MILLER: I don't know what that is, Ellen. Is that a -- about that [pat
down there?]?ELLEN MILLER: No, that's Margaret's wheel.
FRANK MILLER: Is it?
ELLEN MILLER: Mm-hmm.
FRANK MILLER: That's a contract that -- I believe that is, where I had -- and
the fellow where to give us $33,000 when I signed -- when we signed it. And they wouldn't do it. Two of them wouldn't. Me and my daddy wanted to. Oh, 00:28:00we can get 50 out of them. And oh, that would have been a lot of money back then.GEORGE STONEY: Oh I see, that would have been.
ELLEN MILLER: This was in 1947.
GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.
FRANK MILLER: These are some of the old church member's names there. New deed
for the house. That's my union -- my union book.GEORGE STONEY: That's your union book?
FRANK MILLER: Mm-hmm.
GEORGE STONEY: Could we look at it?
FRANK MILLER: Yeah. That's the one I believe I had.
GEORGE STONEY: Uh, United Text of Workers of America --
FRANK MILLER: Mm-hmm.
GEORGE STONEY: -- revised September 1932, organized at Washington, D.C. 1901.
Leger number 635. Let's see. And in the front here, it's dated, local 1902. Is that your local?FRANK MILLER: That must have been it.
00:29:00GEORGE STONEY: And --
FRANK MILLER: What's in it -- (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).
GEORGE STONEY: The date here is February the 13th, 1934. Do you remember your
president, C.P. Green?FRANK MILLER: C.P. Green. I knew some Green, but I can't -- I can't
remember that fellow.GEORGE STONEY: He signed it here and then there's a C.W. Bost. Is that best
or Bost? B-O-S-T.ELLEN MILLER: Bost.
FRANK MILLER: Bost.
GEORGE STONEY: Bost.
FRANK MILLER: Bost.
GEORGE STONEY: He was secretary.
FRANK MILLER: I might remember -- I can't remember them fellows. See, about
all my old friends have died off.GEORGE STONEY: Yeah. And so it has all the rules here.
FRANK MILLER: Yeah.
GEORGE STONEY: And back in the back here --
FRANK MILLER: Yeah, see they stamped it there.
GEORGE STONEY: He's got stamps, yes.
FRANK MILLER: Yeah, like when pay, you know, they stamp it. But they stamp it,
we didn't have to pay now. We was trying to get -- get it organized.GEORGE STONEY: Do you remember how much you were supposed to pay?
00:30:00FRANK MILLER: No, I don't. Right offhand, I don't. As far as I remember,
we didn't have to pay nothing. We were trying to get organized, you see. But they give us our book, you see. And but that old box right there, I bet you that box is 60 years old. Maybe you remember when they had cigar 50/50s. (laughs)GEORGE STONEY: What -- for how much? Five cents. (laughs)
FRANK MILLER: Yeah. Five cents. Cigar for five cents.
ELLEN MILLER: Over there's another paper, Frank.
FRANK MILLER: Yup, that's that old --
GEORGE STONEY: Yeah. Yeah.
HELFAND: And what -- I wonder...
GEORGE STONEY: Yup.
FRANK MILLER: I got this from the old man that was running the old grocery store
right close to wear I lived, yeah. I lived in his house. He owned two houses and if I wanted to move in one, I could just call him up and tell him I wanted to move back across the creek there. (laughs) 00:31:00GEORGE STONEY: Well in your union meetings, um, could you tell us about what happened?
FRANK MILLER: No, I -- I sure can't. I don't remember. It was just mostly
about trying to get more people signed up, you know.GEORGE STONEY: Would you open with prayer?
FRANK MILLER: Tell you the truth, I don't remember that. I don't remember that.
GEORGE STONEY: And what happened on the picket line when you were trying to keep
people out?FRANK MILLER: Well, we didn't have what you call a picket line like you got
now. We'd just gather up as a gang around the mill gate, you see. And some of them would pray and some of them would sing. And some of them would holler, scab before you go in, you know. (laughs) But anyway, like I'm telling you, the mill companies had you across the barrel back then. It ain't like it is 00:32:00now, see. So many people in these mills now own their own homes. And they -- and they ain't afraid of having to move, you see, if something happens. But as I said to start with, way back yonder, along back then, you lived in the company house, they had you across the barrel. You either done what they say to do, or either you move -- lose your job and move. And...and fact is, when the union left here, when we quit organizing, I get there was so many people, they didn't know you could take the cotton [in the court?] about their pay. Because when it [see?], they just [seed there?] and wait for a long time. And 00:33:00then it started back up Kannapolis to say again.GEORGE STONEY: Well actually, I think that the people today have it pretty rough
because they've got car payments to make, and they've got house payments to make, and their bills are so high so it takes pr-- a lot of courage to be trying to be in the union now because there's -- as you know, they'd still fire them if they catch them.FRANK MILLER: Mm-hmm. But people living better around in this section today
than they ever lived in their life. Because you see, you've got the Field Crest Cannon, and they're paying pretty good money. You've got the Philip Morris out here, and you've got the IBM over here. And if you don't believe they're living pretty good, just go right up the highway here to Ron's Steakhouse and look at them lining up there. (laughs) 00:34:00JAMIE STONEY: George, can you slide in just a bit more?
GEORGE STONEY: Yeah. Do you remember --
HELFAND: I just wondered if I had things --
GEORGE STONEY: Speaking about that...
FRANK MILLER: You see, when I was a boy coming up, we didn't have Hardee's
and McDonald's and all that when I was a boy coming up on the cotton mill here. They used to have what they call a café, you know. And all you could get was a hamburger and a hotdog if you went into one of them. But they didn't have no Hardee's, McDonald's and steakhouses and -- I mean, we done our eating at home.GEORGE STONEY: Do you remember you ate in a café or a restaurant?
FRANK MILLER: No, but I'll tell you what happened. I went up to Greensboro
one time when I worked in the mill, had this old [pad?]. Went out to -- I forget the name of this company -- had a warehouse place, big warehouse. And the [parade there?] took us out to lunch; [he had?] us working with this Jewish 00:35:00fellow. Took us out to lunch and he took us out the country club. Well man, I'd never been to a place like that in my life. (laughter) And that's -- the Jackson room and the blue room and all like this. We went in there and sit down, you know. And I looked at the menu and I'm a fellow just tell it like it is, you know. I don't beat around the bush. (laughter) I looked at that menu and they have chicken la [scala?], so you know -- I didn't know were that a whole chicken or friend chicken or stewed chicken or what. (laughter) So, they came by and asked this Jewish fellow, he was a well-to-do man, millionaire. Asked him, you know, taking his order. And I didn't know a bit more what he ordered than anything. I said, "Just give me the same thing." (laughter) I 00:36:00didn't know what he ordered. In a little while they brought me out a little old bowl of soup as an appetizer, you know? It looked -- it looked like somebody had boiled some water and took a catfish with a tale and dropped him down in it, you know. It must have been clam chowder soup or something. (laughter) And I looked at that thing and I said, "You mean that's all I'm going to get for dinner?" To myself, you know. And after a while, they brought me out a big platter of spaghetti, you know, and the cheese to go on it. But I thought at first -- you tell me this is all I'm going to get? that little bowl of soup, looked like grease, you know. (laughter) But no, I'd never been in any place. Now I don't bother. If I go in, if there's something I don't know, I tell -- I -- about what it is. What is that? But you can imagine a cotton mill boy going in a country club place like that 00:37:00(laughter) -- never been in even in a restaurant before nowhere because we didn't have them around. Yeah, didn't have them. See now I used to run a little café down in Cabarrus mill. Well I had a beer joint in there too, see. I had a beer joint in the café.GEORGE STONEY: As a Baptist preacher you had a beer joint?
FRANK MILLER: I wasn't a Baptist preacher then; I wasn't nothing much.
GEORGE STONEY: Oh. (laughter)
FRANK MILLER: That was before I ever got converted. And man, I'd get rolling.
A hotdog a nickel. And people'd come out there and get a dollar worth of hamburger-- of hotdog; that was 20 hotdogs for dollar. No tax or anything like that, see. I could roll them hotdogs. Mustard, chili on them. Yeah. But I'll tell you what, I used to be bad. I'll tell you this, I used to be bad 00:38:00to come and drink, you know. One day I got to thinking about it; what's going to happen to my children, you know, me doing things like that. And I made a change. And I'll tell you what, I made a change for the better. Now I never asked you anything since I've been meeting you. Are you -- I don't believe I have -- are you a Christian?GEORGE STONEY: I was raised a Christian.
FRANK MILLER: Well, are you a Christian though? You're not raised a
Christian; you gotta become a Christian yourself. The Bible says you --GEORGE STONEY: Well --
FRANK MILLER: -- must be born --
GEORGE STONEY: -- knowing the standards of my father, I doubt it. I'm not
sure I live up to what he would have expected.FRANK MILLER: Well now, let me tell you something. [What if I told you?],
it's so simple, that a wayfaring fool [ain't got here or there or in you see?]. Christ came -- like in the Old Testament days, in the olden times. The Jews today, you know that, the Jewish people, they don't marry [an?] 00:39:00(inaudible) people. They got their own nation [that we're on?] right now. And the Bible tells you that that was going to happen. Well, they used to have bring a lamb or a goat up to the temple, [all afraid?], cut his throat, catch blood, go into the Holy of Holies one time a year, there where the Arc of the Covenant inlaid with gold and everything and on top of the Arc of the Covenant was a mercy seat. And two cherubims on each side with their wings spread out, looking down. Well inside of that box, the Arc of the Covenant, were the 10 Commandments. God up here looking down, these people out there, [they'd all gutted out?]. They had broken God's law. And when that old priest put that blood on the mercy seat, then God above symbolically looked down, couldn't see 00:40:00the broken laws through the blood at that lamb. Way back [then?], God had planned it that Jesus were to be the Lamb of God to take away the sins of the world. So Christ came into the world, born of virgin -- man had nothing to do with the birth of Jesus at all. The whole -- God overshadowed Mary and she gave birth to Jesus Christ. And man saw him. They handled him. They felt of him. They saw his mercy, his goodness, his kindness. They saw the miracles he performed, opened the eyes of the blind, make the lame to walk. They even saw him raise the dead, but they said, "Crucify him. Away with him." So then they nailed him to the cross. And he shed his blood on the cross once and for all. OK? God gave his son on the cross. He died on the cross; they took him off; they put him a tomb; they sealed him up and said he's dead forevermore. 00:41:00But the third day, Jesus came forth out of that tomb, giving us hope of a bodily resurrection one day. Some day, I'm going to come up out of that grave. Now God gave us the plan of salvation, you see. He shed -- his son shed his blood for us. But now we've got to accept God's gift. We've got to accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. We've got a choice. Now, you won't cry to your savior? Or don't you want to? See? Somebody say, "Aw preacher, there ain't no hell." There's as much a hell as there are a heaven. And you make the choice. You see what I mean?GEORGE STONEY: Mm-hmm.
FRANK MILLER: It's like I tried to illustrate to church last Sunday. I pull
out a quarter out of my pocket. A little girl sitting down there -- I'm preaching down at this church in the country. I said, "Honey, you want this?" She got up and come up there and grabbed that quarter out of my hand. 00:42:00I said, "Now you see, folks. If she hadn't have took that money from me, she'd have never got it. But she accepted it, same way with God's salvation. We accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior, or we reject it. We believe that Christ died, buried, and rose again for our sins. And the Bible says, for whosoever should call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Not maybe, not perhaps, but shall be saved. And Christ died once and for all of our sins." See, it's hard to understand all this, and I don't try to comprehend it. Before I was ever thought about, my parents ever having me and my granddaddies and all, God had had all this planned out. And my sins, all them ungodly things that I did when I run the beer joint and all, they were all laid on him 2,000 years ago.GEORGE STONEY: Mm-hmm.
00:43:00FRANK MILLER: Now I've got to accept his plan for my forgiveness. And brother
is a simple thing to do is to accept God's son as your savior. And when you do that, it's not by feelings and it's not by some emotional thing, but it's all about faith. Now you're going around today doing this, and you're doing it by faith, hoping that everything'll work out right. Is that not right? Well, you accept Christ by faith. You don't see him, but it's all about faith. He don't speak with him in an audible voice like I do, but that Bible over there has been tried -- men have tried to do away with it. One 00:44:00atheist has said in so many years, there won't be no Bible, Orville Terry. And the books that he wrote on athemist-- atheist stuff, they're making Bibles on them print machine today. (laughs)GEORGE STONEY: Well, it's -- it sounds like the old Gospel that I used to hear
in the church.FRANK MILLER: Yeah.
GEORGE STONEY: Yup.
FRANK MILLER: [What sayeth it?] the Bible says, what sayeth it, the word
[isn't out of date?], even the word of faith that we preach, that isn't. Thou shall confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, believe in thine heart that God has raised him from the dead; thou shalt be saved. For with the heart, men believeth unto righteousness, and with the mouth in faith they [might him?] salvation. For the scripture says, whosoever believeth on him will not be ashamed. See, I'm not ashamed to tell you about it. And then he goes on and says, for whosever -- that includes you, you, and you -- should call upon the 00:45:00name of the Lord shall be saved.GEORGE STONEY: Where were you saved?
FRANK MILLER: I was saved at my home. I began to realize the condition I was in
and I got on my knees -- I didn't know how to pray. I went to church when I was a boy, used to take part in everything when I was just a boy, you know. But I --GEORGE STONEY: And so --
FRANK MILLER: But I wasn't right --
GEORGE STONEY: Was religion a big part of life in a cotton mill village?
FRANK MILLER: Yes it was. Yes it was. See, the preachers used to come and was
going to have a revival at the church -- at a church on the Cotton Mill Hill. The preachers were allowed to bring the brand new preacher in and go around, shake hands with people in the mill, introduce theirself to them and all. And they would go out; they would turn out; people'd turn out. Lot of difference now than what it was back then.GEORGE STONEY: We were in -- we were in -- outside of East Newnan, Georgia, and
saw a -- one of the old revival tents. 00:46:00FRANK MILLER: Mm-hmm.
GEORGE STONEY: That seems to me -- I remember as a child in North Carolina
seeing a lot of those around cotton mills.FRANK MILLER: Yeah, they used to have a lot of -- a tent -- they'd come around
a tent made -- in fact, they didn't have too many denominations along back then. You ever see a fellow by the name of Charles Stanley, comes on channel three on Sunday mornings at eight o'clock? He was my professor for two years out in (inaudible). (laughs) Now he's pastor of a First Baptist Church in Atlanta, Georgia. Has a huge crowd.GEORGE STONEY: There used to be a whole group of those preachers who would come
around with tents, as I recall.FRANK MILLER: Oh yeah.
GEORGE STONEY: Around Winston-Salem where I grew.
FRANK MILLER: There was fellows like old Cyclone Max, Billy Sunday, and old --
oh, I can't think of his name. There was Gypsy Smith and different ones like that. Well, I told you -- I told you about the plan. Now let me ask you the 00:47:00question, [is Paul like the old river?], will you take Christ as your savior today? That's a question you got to ask.GEORGE STONEY: Mm-hmm. That's what I certainly have to answer, right?
FRANK MILLER: That's right. Will you take me by the hand and say, "I'll
accept Jesus as my savior"? Let's pray.GEORGE STONEY: OK.
FRANK MILLER: Father, we come here this evening thanking thee for the privilege
to talk to this one about Jesus. We believe, God, you not only led him here to get this story, but father, that he might come to know you as his Lord and Savior. Thank you for it, Lord. And father, help him to realize that Jesus is real; he's alive and alive forevermore. Help him oh God to depend on you and let him say in his heart, "God, I'm a sinner but now I want you to save me 00:48:00for Jesus's sake." And Lord, the minute he says that in his heart, believe it. You'll come into his heart. When he took me by the hand, Lord, he said he wanted you. And we thank you for that. God bless him and encourage him now along this pilgrim journey of life. It won't be long father that none of us right here will be together again, until we'll meet in heaven one day. Bless, I pray oh God now, for what you've done in this man's heart. In Jesus's name we pray. Amen.GEORGE STONEY: Amen.
FRANK MILLER: Amen, brother. And bless your heart.
GEORGE STONEY: Thank you, thank you.
FRANK MILLER: God didn't lead you here -- you didn't come here today for
that; you come here to find Jesus. (laughs) And let me ask you the same thing. Do you want Christ as your Lord and Savior?HELFAND: Well to tell you the truth, I'm Jewish.
FRANK MILLER: You're good.
HELFAND: Thanks.
ELLEN MILLER: Jewish.
00:49:00FRANK MILLER: Jewish. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, that's all I got -- [they ought
to love you?]. Jesus was a Jew too, did you know that?HELFAND: I know that.
FRANK MILLER: He was. And but I do wish you'd go back and study your history
[once more?]. See, I get the help from neighbors, gooder friends I ever had than Jewish people, Jewish neighbor. And my neighbor used to -- lady -- of course, she thought the world of me. My granddaughter's name after her. Hannah. And we lived side-to-side and she come over to the house, take her shoes off, the Jewish custom, you know, taking your shoes off [lot of them?] before they come in your house. She had that custom, taking her shoes off before she come in the house. Yeah. But you see honey, I know -- I don't want to try to discourage, but Christ -- you see, like Moses and them way back 00:50:00then, like the -- when Solomon built the temple for the Lord and put that Holy of Holies in there and the altar back there. And put the Arc of the Covenant rather back in there -- you know something about the Arc of the Covenant, don't you? They had the law in the Arc of the Covenant, had Aaron's rod (inaudible) in there, some of the manna in the wilderness. Well you see, the people couldn't keep God's law. They couldn't keep it. God up there when he'd come in the priest and put the blood, they couldn't keep it. The law'd been broken. But when you put the blood, that was symbolic of the blood of Christ that was to come later on to take away the sins of the world. You're still looking for the messiah to come, ain't that right? But he's already come, and y'all are looking -- still looking for his coming. See, I 00:51:00had a Jewish friend when I [go that old Pat?], and we come to Raleigh one night. He said, "Let's talk about your religion." I said, "All right, we'll talk about it." I said, "How're you figuring on going to heaven, Mr. Wolf?" -- his name was Wolf. He said, "By keeping the -- keeping the law." I said, "You've told me things since we've been together, and I've heard you take God's name in vain since I've been around you. You know what [you and Moses?] day?" He said, "What?" I said, "They'd have stoned you to death." I said, "You told me about how you went out on your wife. You know what they'd have done when you were in Moses's day?" He said, "What?" I said, "They'd have stoned you to death." I kept telling them things they'd have stoned him for. He said, "Well how you figuring on going to heaven?" I said, "I got two chances to your one." He said, "What you mean you got two chances to my one?" I said, "Well, I believe that Jesus was God. I believe in only one God. But I believe that 00:52:00Jesus put on flesh and come down and lived among us. And he was the God-man."HELFAND: I have a question.
FRANK MILLER: Huh?
HELFAND: I have a question. How did the preachers make sense of all the people
wanting to organize into unions, you know, back in the 1930s and even today what they're trying to organize down in Kannapolis? Did Jesus believe in working people standing up for themselves?FRANK MILLER: Yeah. His -- his apostles, they followed and [back then?], old
Peter whacked the priest's ear off when he tried to attack Jesus when they came after him to take him and crucify him. You see? Jesus didn't have to die on that cross. He laid his life down. He said, "I give my life. No man takes it from me, but I give it." He becomes a Lamb of God, you see, that 00:53:00takes away the sins of the world. You see? Instead of now having to drag a lamb or a goat to the church or to your synagogue, you see? We don't have to do that. Christ died once and for A-double L, all of our sins. Now, and I told that Jewish boy, I said, "I got two chance to your one." I said -- he said, "How you -- how you -- what you mean?" I said, "I believe that God is only one God, but believe he was incarnated into human flesh, came down born of a virgin." See, God is spirit. We don't see God. You know that. God's spirit. You don't see him. To reveal himself to us, he took on flesh and come down born of a virgin.HELFAND: Now how did you take that philosophy --
FRANK MILLER: Huh?
HELFAND: How has that philosophy been taken and -- and how -- how would the
00:54:00preachers use those ideas to either support or be against the idea of working people in these communities trying to organize into unions? That was my question. Because I rem-- we've heard that --FRANK MILLER: How do use that to try to...--
HELFAND: Ask it, George.
FRANK MILLER: I still don't get --
GEORGE STONEY: Well, what she's trying to say is that in some places, the
preachers have helped the unions and some places they've been against the unions. And we have heard people say, "Well, being in the union is unlike -- is un -- is almost unchristian." And other people have had a very different feeling.FRANK MILLER: Well, I didn't see no unchristian in it when I was -- belonged
to it, you see. Was no unchristian in it. That is, we didn't do anything out of the way. We didn't get together and drink and all that kind of stuff. Uh-uh. We were just trying to get something better for the people, see. And 00:55:00that's why I said Christ came for something better for the people. Instead of having to bring a goat or a sheep up to the temple, he'd done something better for us, you see. And so that's what we were doing in the union trying to make things better for the people. And this other boy that started preaching along time I did, me and him was trying to organize the union, I mean, getting people to sign up. It seemed like the good Lord give every one of us a better job, done something good for us. Old Red, the Lord would have called him into the ministry [say sorry for it?]. But I think the Lord used him in the union, you see, trying to help to organize, the union. 00:56:00GEORGE STONEY: Now, Judy --
HELFAND: Yes sir.
GEORGE STONEY: Let's stop just a moment.
HELFAND: OK -- [break in audio] -- trip around the mill village.
GEORGE STONEY: Jimmy?
FRANK MILLER: Go over and show her --
GEORGE STONEY: Why don't you go outside and see if it's too late to do that.
JAMIE STONEY: Well he was about to tell her where he took her. I've got five
minutes I'd like to burn on this tape.HELFAND: You know?
GEORGE STONEY: Yeah?
HELFAND: It would be really nice if Reverend Miller could op--
GEORGE STONEY: (inaudible)
FRANK MILLER: -- so you said you want me to get the --
GEORGE STONEY: All right, sir. All right now.
HELFAND: No, when you show -- you showed me that card, and you said, "This is
my union book," you were so excited about it...FRANK MILLER: Eh...now if I get into this box here...Now let me find my union
book. Here it is. Now this is my union book that they gave me when I joined the union. And I got it stamped in here somewhere, but see we were just signing 00:57:00up. That's what they got his stamp that. And if we were to have got a union, then I'd have had to pay union dues, you see. And but we were just trying to get the union then in the mill. And I've had this old box a long time. And when I got that union card, I was -- I was proud of it. Because I felt like I was trying to do something to help people. Though I was sticking my neck out on losing my job and not knowing what I'd gonna do. [I would textile?] about the only thing people knew around here to do. And but now the building going on and all like that like we got today, and if you lived back then, most time you lived 00:58:00in the millhouse. And if you did, if you didn't pay the man the rent, you'd -- whose house you're living in, he'd get you out in a hurry. (laughs) Well, in a way, back then, if you was blackballing the mill, you were pretty well blackball, you know what I mean? You -- you had no -- no way to make an income. So the textile owned about everything. Or the political party dominated everything then if you were to get the party, then you would get the whole thing. (phone rings)GEORGE STONEY: Answer that, (inaudible).
JAMIE STONEY: I got it --