Rev. Frank Miller Interview 3

00:00:00

FRANK MILLER: They got [the?] -

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah. We've heard so much about this place, because, uh, Mr. Cannon is kind of famous or infamous all around the South.

FRANK MILLER: Mm, yeah, well, tell ya, the old man, Jim Cannon – Charlie's daddy [one third?] the Cannon Mill. And so, when he died, I believe his son, Joe, took over. And then, when Joe died, Mr. Charlie took over, you see? It's pretty well been dominated by the Cannons, the city and the mills, too. But, now, there was the old Brown Mill over there. That was owned by the Johnson Company. What they called ol' Lock? Mill down here, now it's apartments all in it. That was owned by the O'Dells, back years ago. And so, 00:01:00uh, uh, 'bout all these mills was Cannon mills, you see, here in Concord. But now they've all shut down. Just about all of them shut down now, and all of it's in Kannapolis. All the textile, in Kannapolis, yeah. But the Cannons is - still got a - they - now, they - they've done a lot for people, in a way, like Bill [in?] the - happened to build a hospital, and giving grants to certain things and - like that, but I've always been [like this?] - grants is good, but I think they ought to give it to the people - some of it to the people that made it for 'em.

GEORGE STONEY: Right.

FRANK MILLER: Yeah. Now, that's good, to give a hospital maybe 100,000 or so many thousand. But I've always said why come they can't take and give some of their old retired help - that helped them to make all that money? Give them 00:02:00a little something. Mm. The name won't be spread as broad as much. Now, when I passed in the church, we had I don't know how many - 100 members. But I got my deacon together one year, 'cause we had money enough to do it. I said, "Let's give all of our old senior citizens $200." Some of them liked to choke to death. (laughter) For Christmas, you know? (laughter) At Christmas. (laughter) No, it? - ain't no way preacher wouldn't do that. Well, he come down - I come on down to $100. [I'll just - and some of 'em still like to choke to death. (laughter) I said, "Well, I know we can give 'em $50 anyway." So, we give every senior citizen in our church a $50 check for Christmas, you see? And that thrilled them old people to death. See, like, a man and his wife, that's $100 for them.

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.

FRANK MILLER: If they're senior citizens. And that thrilled them to death. Some come and tell me the next year and said, "Preachers, you gonna give us 00:03:00$50?" I said, "No. (laughter) I don't get they will." (laughter) But I feel like that about the men - where they made a lot of money, they ought to share it with the ones that helped them to make it. And I feel like - that the Cannons, instead of giving all these grants to these different people, they ought to give it to some of these old retirees they got that - uh, not able to work.

GEORGE STONEY: Mm-hmm.

FRANK MILLER: But I'm going to tell you something, and you know this. And you'll know it a little later on, if you live long. When you get old, you're just about forgotten. You know that?

GEORGE STONEY: Well, that -

FRANK MILLER: Old -

GEORGE STONEY: - that hasn't -

FRANK MILLER: Oh -

GEORGE STONEY: - that hasn't happened to me yet.

FRANK MILLER: These old friends of yours -

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.

FRANK MILLER: - when they'd - most of your old friends die off -

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah, that's right.

FRANK MILLER: - and a new bunch comes along -

GEORGE STONEY: Well, I'm very lucky because, you see, I - I still teach at the university.

FRANK MILLER: Yeah?

GEORGE STONEY: So, I have young -

FRANK MILLER: Where do you teach at? What university?

GEORGE STONEY: At New York University.

FRANK MILLER: New York University.

GEORGE STONEY: And I - so, I - I'm very lucky, because I have younger people coming on, like - like, uh -

FRANK MILLER: Yeah.

00:04:00

GEORGE STONEY: - Judy, here.

FRANK MILLER: Well, you see, all of the young ones is coming on when I passed in the church - they've done grown up now and I don't know -

GEORGE STONEY: [Yeah?].

FRANK MILLER: - see what I mean? I don't even know. And I meet people, they'll come up to me, "Hello, Preacher Miller." I'll say, "Hello, how are you?" "Oh, I'm fine." They'll talk - [go to?] talking. In a minute, I'll say, "Now, by the way, I know your face, but I can't get your name." They'll tell me their name.

GEORGE STONEY: Oh, God, it happens all the time.

FRANK MILLER: Yeah. (laughs)

GEORGE STONEY: Happens all the time.

FRANK MILLER: Yeah!

GEORGE STONEY: And you probably baptized 'em.

FRANK MILLER: Yeah. (laughter) No doubt I did!

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.

FRANK MILLER: Some of 'em I did, yeah.

GEORGE STONEY: Well, I have the same thing. They've been in my classes.

FRANK MILLER: And you're a professor up at New York University.

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

FRANK MILLER: Well, that's wonderful. What do you, uh, teach?

GEORGE STONEY: I teach filmmaking.

FRANK MILLER: (inaudible)

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah, uh-huh.

FRANK MILLER: Well, you can look at this old Baptist preacher over there and said, "Boy, he's a nut." (laughter)

JAMIE STONEY: [Now?], you were turning from [addressing?] -

GEORGE STONEY: Mm-hmm.

FRANK MILLER: - the Reverend, and I think you asked her what did she remember about life -

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.

JAMIE STONEY: - in the cotton mill.

00:05:00

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah. How was it in your village?

ELLEN MILLER: Well, I never did live on a mill, uh, village.

GEORGE STONEY: Mm-hmm.

ELLEN MILLER: My father died in '29, and I was born in '27. And my mother raised three children, but we never did live - my mother didn't work in the cotton mill. She nursed, and she didn't - we never did live on the cotton mill -

GEORGE STONEY: Mm-hmm.

ELLEN MILLER: - but my uncle that I was telling you about, they lived on Cotton Mill Hill, and we went to their house a lot.

GEORGE STONEY: Could you tell me why it's always a Cotton Mill Hill? People live on the hill. (laughs)

FRANK MILLER: Well, I -

GEORGE STONEY: Even if it's flat. (laughs)

FRANK MILLER: - I don't know, but -

GEORGE STONEY: Even if it's flat.

FRANK MILLER: - see, they used to call it -

ELLEN MILLER: Just a saying.

FRANK MILLER: - when I was a little boy -

ELLEN MILLER: Just a saying.

FRANK MILLER: - they'd call us lint dodgers, lint heads, and things like that, you see? And, uh, uh, we moved out in the country when I was a little ol' boy. My dad bought 103 acre farm out in the country. An old log house, kitchen set off from the house. Uh, set from the - and had to walk across, you know? 00:06:00Didn't have windows in it. Had - uh, uh, in the kitchen, had a shutter, you know?

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah, yeah.

FRANK MILLER: Chain on it.

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.

FRANK MILLER: And a great big ol' open fireplace. Somebody tried to wallpaper it with newspapers and took flour and water, you know, and stuck newspapers on the wall. (laughs) Now, this is when I was a boy, you know?

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah, yeah.

FRANK MILLER: Back when I was a boy. And, yeah, we moved -

GEORGE STONEY: I've seen in that in - in Yadkin County.

FRANK MILLER: Yeah, we moved out there on that old farm.

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.

FRANK MILLER: And you talk about a time - uh, we had us a time out there (laughter) out there on that farm.

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.

FRANK MILLER: But, uh, we had a happy life out there.

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.

FRANK MILLER: But back then - see, these young ones don't know what they are.

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.

FRANK MILLER: You remember when the -

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.

FRANK MILLER: - old houses had all these [cheeches?] in 'em and all.

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.

FRANK MILLER: 'Bout eat you up.

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.

FRANK MILLER: (laughs) Call 'em bedbugs now, you know? Don't have any more of 'em -

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.

FRANK MILLER: - with all this -

GEORGE STONEY: And you had a well that you had to -

FRANK MILLER: Oh, yeah, yeah.

GEORGE STONEY: - [pull up?] the water?

FRANK MILLER: Well, we didn't have a well out there. We had a spring, it - been blocked up with big ol' stones, you know?

GEORGE STONEY: Mm-hmm.

00:07:00

FRANK MILLER: And we'd get our water out of a spring. But I'm gonna tell you a [good 'un?] about a Baptist preacher. This old Baptist preacher told me this. Said he was up in the mountain preaching, and he's - talked kind of through his nose, and running for - and he said, "I was up in the mountains preaching." And said, "Oh, we had a wonderful, wonderful revival." Said, "I had 70 souls saved." Said, "Had one great big ol' fat one. Was she the big'un! And she wouldn't unite with the church, because she's afraid of the water, you know?" (laughter) See, us Baptists believes in immersion. And (laughs) he said, "Finally, I talked her into going ahead uniting with the church and let me baptize her." Said, "Oh, that Sunday evening," said, "the people lined the riverbanks." Said, "They [were?] lined up and the choir was up there." And said, "I decided I'd take that ol' fat woman first, big ol' fat woman first." Said, "I had one of my deacon - to come 00:08:00leading her out." Tell me, "You know?" And said he brought her out there, and she's shaking like a mule in a hailstorm, (laughter) you know? Said, "I looked up at my choir leader and said, 'Brother, would you lead us in a song appropriate for this occasion?'" (laughs) Said, "You know, that rascal Brother Frank cut loose singing, 'You're Drifting Too Far From the Shore.'" (laughter) See, I could tell you a whole lot, now, people looking at that thing, laughing. (laughter)

GEORGE STONEY: Oh, that's great, mm-hmm.

FRANK MILLER: Yeah, "You're Drifting Too Far" -

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.

FRANK MILLER: - "From the Shore." (laughter)

JAMIE STONEY: Think we've got it, [there?]?

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah, we -

JUDITH HELFAND: Um, what was it that Mr. - that Reverend Miller was saying to you before?

JAMIE STONEY: Oh, the -

HELFAND: He was talking straight to you, and [Jamie?] was behind him.

JAMIE STONEY: Oh, what are all the different names they have for, uh -

GEORGE STONEY: Oh, yes.

JAMIE STONEY: - cotton mill workers?

GEORGE STONEY: Cotton mill workers.

FRANK MILLER: Lint head, lint dodgers, and what else was it? (laughs) You remember some of -

ELLEN MILLER: [I don't know?], that's all I remember.

FRANK MILLER: Yeah, lint heads and lint dodgers. I don't - (laughs) they'd 00:09:00call us little ol' boys lint heads and lint dodger. We moved out in the country, you know, went out there. None of the country folks worked in town. And we moved out there and we was lint heads, you know? And lint dodge-

GEORGE STONEY: How'd you feel about that?

FRANK MILLER: Huh?

GEORGE STONEY: How'd you feel about that?

FRANK MILLER: Oh, it didn't bother me, 'cause I'd got used to it as a kid. Got used to it - call us lint heads, lint dodgers.

JAMIE STONEY: Did it bother you the first time somebody called you lint head?

FRANK MILLER: No, no, that didn't bother me, 'cause that's about [right?] what they called us, [lot of?] - (laughs) yeah.

GEORGE STONEY: Well, we've heard a lot about the conflict between the people in the cotton mill and the people, uh, on the farms.

FRANK MILLER: Well, when I was a little boy, we moved out in the country. Didn't nobody hardly work in the cotton mill.

GEORGE STONEY: Mm-hmm.

FRANK MILLER: I don't know anyone - my dad and mother, uh, they'd start to - coming back, working in the mill some. This man they rode with, he worked in town. And it wasn't too long the others begin to come. Others begin to come into the city and work the mill. Then - now, my goodness, half of the mill's 00:10:00made up of country folk, you know? Live in the country.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, when you worked in the country, were you growing, uh, cotton?

FRANK MILLER: Yeah, we growed cotton. That was our main, uh, uh, uh, living, you know? Growing cotton. We - which - we raised corn and - and my dad had big gardens, you know? And, like, he'd plant sweet potatoes and peanuts and things. But our main, uh, source was cotton.

GEORGE STONEY: Do you remember when the boll weevil came along?

FRANK MILLER: Oh, Lord, the boll weevils, yes, sir. Them things might near kill some people. I mean, you know, with their crops. But, uh, when we moved out there, there was gullies on that old farm that you could might near set this house in. And when we moved from out there, they would plant cotton over the top of them - gulley. I mean, young people today don't know what, uh, uh, what work is. Now, when I wasn't going to school as a boy - and we didn't 00:11:00have a bus come by, pick us up. We walked to school. And, uh, I believe it was a three-room wooden building where I went to school in. And, uh, carry lunch in a half a gallon bucket. And we'd eat a lot of rabbits. You had - me and my brother had 20 rabbit [boxes?]. We'd get three or four rabbits 'bout every morning. Man, take me one of them rabbit legs out and a biscuit of butter, jelly, you know, on it. Eat that rabbit leg, (laughs) butter and just - that was good eating. Well, the other children, too. We'd take a half a gallon lard bucket, you know, and take a nail and knock holes in the lid so it wouldn't sweat. But children, they don't know what work is. Now, when I was a boy, I had to get up, when I wasn't in school - when my Dad and them got up to go to work out in the field, I had to go, too. I had to carry the fertilizer, the - and the cotton seed. I'd feed the cotton - uh, the thing 00:12:00you planted cotton with, see. I could pour the cotton seed in there and carry the fertilze- and - four bucket of fertilize in the - in the planter. And whenever we'd get caught up with things like that - cut down tree, cutting our wood for wintertime. Always something to do. Reining, cleaning the hornets from the gears and all that stuff. [I mean, thing?] for the old mules and all. Cleaning out stables and things like that. Always something to do, so -

GEORGE STONEY: Do you think that life in the cotton mill was easier than it was on the farm?

FRANK MILLER: Well, uh, back then, I - just a boy. (laughs) To me, it was - it would have been. (laughs) But, oh, how I did love to wake up in the morning - had an old tin roof on that house, and you hear it raining, you know? Man, I won't have to get out in the cotton patch today to hoe cotton. (laughter) 00:13:00Yeah, won't have to hoe cotton. (laughs)

GEORGE STONEY: Well, you didn't - so, you didn't have to go into the cotton mill as a child the way a lot of people did.

FRANK MILLER: Oh, no, no, but my sister - now, she said she went in the mill at nine years old. Yeah, she slipped on - went down to the mill and got her a job. But now they tell me - I don't know, they never done it to me. I had some fellas that worked in the mill with me that was older than I was. Said the overseers used to come and chase you down, and so they'd slip out and maybe I'd try to go rabbit hunting. Overseers would go and hunt 'em and find 'em and whip 'em. See, they - overseers'd whip 'em back then. (laughs) Whip the children. But I never had that - to happen to me. But they said they used to do that, though.

GEORGE STONEY: Mm-hmm.

FRANK MILLER: They'd - they'd spank a child.

GEORGE STONEY: Well, they got, uh, rid of that child labor with the NRA -

FRANK MILLER: Yeah.

GEORGE STONEY: - with the Blue Eagle.

00:14:00

FRANK MILLER: Uh-huh. Yeah, when I went to work, I had to be 16 years old before I could go to work, when I went to work in the mill.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, you went a good bit further in school than a lot of people we talk with, uh -

FRANK MILLER: Mm-hmm.

GEORGE STONEY: Was that - that was your father's influence, I imagine?

FRANK MILLER: Yes. And, uh, another thing, I - I wasn't no smart fellah, but I didn't go to the seventh grade. They had a - the city or the supervisor over all the school wanted to start a high school, over that - Hartford School, they called it. And they came over and gave us a test. You know, what - a quiz, test, like. And me and another girl passed it. I was one that passed it and helped to start the high school. Over at the Hartford High School, I got to skip the seventh grade and go to eight. And that was a big mistake in my life, because the seventh grade is one of the main - grade to go through. But I went 00:15:00to the eighth grade without going through the seventh, then went onto the ninth, then to the 10th, and - and had a good superintender, 'cause he come over to the house and talked to me. He'd go around and talk to the people, try to get 'em not to quit school, to come on and go to school. Tell us what education meant to us. But young people, we couldn't see all of that back then. Like a lot of 'em today, they don't see it.

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah, yeah.

FRANK MILLER: Now I look back on them days, I see it. See, I had a son - now, he graduate the University of North Carolina in political science, something that - he wished now that he never took it. Uh, he knows there's a - he knows his history and all, 'bout foreign affairs. But he told me - said he wished he'd went ahead and took some other type of course, now. And, uh, she got a 00:16:00grandboy. Now, he's going to, uh - going over there at University of North Carolina, and he studied business managment (inaudible)

ELLEN MILLEr: Administration.

GEORGE STONEY: Mm-hmm.

FRANK MILLER: Business administration, and then he's going to go ahead and, uh -

ELLEN MILLER: Get a CPA degree.

GEORGE STONEY: Mm-hmm.

FRANK MILLER: Yeah.

GEORGE STONEY: This is at Chapel Hill, is it?

ELLEN MILLER: No (inaudible)

FRANK MILLER: Yeah, university right over here.

GEORGE STONEY: Oh, uh, [university at?] Raleigh.

FRANK MILLER: University -

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.

FRANK MILLER: - [of?] Chapel Hill -

GEORGE STONEY: Mm-hmm.

FRANK MILLER: - over here.

HELFAND: Mister -

FRANK MILLER: Yeah?

HELFAND: Reverend Miller was saying that - uh, what was it? Oh, about Cannon's - their names being all over, they're giving grants to everybody -

GEORGE STONEY: Mm-hmm.

HELFAND: - but they don't give it to the people that make it, and I thought maybe he could talk a little bit about that again.

FRANK MILLER: Well, I just feel like it, uh, it's good to give to hospital and these different places - money. But I feel like they should take some of the money that they're giving away and give to the people that helped to make it for 'em. But most of their old people now that helped to make it for 'em, 00:17:00they died off. Yeah. They still got a few of 'em living, but - but I feel like it - if - uh, if - if I had a company my own self, and people made money for me, and I become a wealthy man like the Cannon, I would see that the people that worked for me was well taken care of. I believe I'd give 'em a little bit of it back. Fact is, I don't believe they'd have to fight to try to get a union in. (laughter) 'Cause I'd take care of 'em so good they wouldn't have to do it. (laughter) It'd be hard for a union to get in if I had the money Cannon had, you know? Because I'd be so good to my people, see that they didn't want for anything. But I'll tell you, now, the mill that I worked in, now they were good to us in a way. If any of my children had to go to the hospital or any of us go into hospital, all we had to do was tell 'em 00:18:00to charge it to the Brown Mill, see? And the company would take so much out of our paycheck every - every payday, you see, 'til they got that hospital bill paid off. Now, they was good to us in that (inaudible) some things, they - they - they were pretty good about.

GEORGE STONEY: But they fought the union.

FRANK MILLER: Oh, yeah. Yeah. But now, the Brown Mill, like I said, was owned by the Johnsons and Charlie. They wasn't as bad as the Cannon mills were, see? Not even to their help. See, long as you run your job at the Brown Mill, old Brown Mill, long as you run your job, OK. They didn't have somebody 'round your neck all the time watching you and telling you just everything you had to do and didn't have to do. Long as you run your job, you - you - uh, they would pretty well - you was pretty well secure with 'em. And, uh - but 00:19:00the Cannon mills, now, it was a lot different from the Brown Mill, 'cause it was a - Cannon mill owned. Brown Mill was different. People in Charlotte owned that, and they wasn't as strict on us at the Brown Mill as they was in the Cannon Mill. And I enjoyed it over there. I did. The last years, I really enjoyed it. Fact, if they had some of the old looms in the mill over there like I used to [fix on?] now, I'd go back and work a couple days, just to see if I could tear one down, throw it on the floor, and build it back - and put it back together. (laughter) I would.

GEORGE STONEY: Well, you know, one of the things we're trying to do is to help to complete history. And these - you've been over to the Cannon Museum, and they got the history of the Cannon family and the history of the factory, and the way the cloth is made.

FRANK MILLER: Mm-hmm.

GEORGE STONEY: But nothing about the workmen, nothing about the people who 00:20:00worked in the plant. (laughter) We're trying to fill that in.

FRANK MILLER: Mm-hmm.

GEORGE STONEY: And one of the things that we hope to have - see them do is to add working machinery, just like what you're talking about, so that -

FRANK MILLER: Yeah.

GEORGE STONEY: - people like you could go into those museums and see that.

FRANK MILLER: Mm-hmm. Now, I - I've often wondered, myself - see, the first mill that the - old man Jim Cannon built down here in town - they tore it down. I said it seemed to me like they would've left that mill and made a museum out of that mill, you know? But instead of that, they tore it down. And I said it looked like they'd've left that old first mill he'd built, you know, and put a museum in it.

GEORGE STONEY: Well, what they've done - what they're planning to do now, I think, with the old Loray Mill in Gastonia -

FRANK MILLER: Uh-huh.

GEORGE STONEY: They're talking about making that a museum.

FRANK MILLER: Uh-huh.

GEORGE STONEY: It's pretty big.

00:21:00

FRANK MILLER: Well, they ain't gonna show you too much about the labor force back then when the Cannon - had their thing. They ain't gonna show you too much or tell you too much about that. You're getting more of it right now from people like me than - (laughs) and (laughs) - and I dare say, they wouldn't let you put this up in the museum - put it in their museum. (laughs) 'Cause they don't want people to know how - how did - the cotton mill people was treated back then. Oh, they'd say they treated 'em good. They give 'em a home to live in and so forth and so on. But -

HELFAND: Could you say that again?

JAMIE STONEY: We just got a truck over your voice here.

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.

FRANK MILLER: They what?

HELFAND: Could you start with they don't want you to know about this, and - and go on -

FRANK MILLER: Oh, I said, they - they don't care about the people knowing about how the Cannon - treated the workers back in those days. Uh-uh. (laughs) 00:22:00And I daren't say where they'll let you put that in their museum or not, of what people say about - are saying about the way they - some people said, "Oh, we get along pretty good. We got along pretty good." But most everybody had it rough that worked in the cotton mill. Now, there was some - I'll say this, my daddy. He always owned his own home. He said it's better to pay for your home than it is to pay rent and pay somebody else. And I don't know. He always told me - said if you make a dollar, try to save a dime of it, anyway. And he always try to tell me - said, "If you want to buy something, you see it, then go to saving the money to buy it." Said, "If you got the money to buy it with, you can always get it cheaper if you got the cash money." But I never would take - take that lesson, you see, (laughter) from - (laughs) but there were some back then in my - in the early days that owned their own homes, 00:23:00just like my daddy. But very few, you know? Very few people that worked in the mills owned their own home. The homes was - and just to make a long story short, it's like I said to start with, when you lived in a company home and you worked for the company, then you did as they say do, or either - you move. They fired you or you quit and had to move. So, in a way, they had you across the barrel, just like they got me across the barrel - my light bill. (laughter) Either pay it -

GEORGE STONEY: OK.

JAMIE STONEY: Let's just get that.

FRANK MILLER: - or turn it off.

JAMIE STONEY: Thirty seconds of -

HELFAND: I got (inaudible)

FRANK MILLER: Well -

GEORGE STONEY: OK, fine.

FRANK MILLER: Yeah, [and it?] -

GEORGE STONEY: And, uh, we'll be calling you, then, sometime when you get back from the mountains.

FRANK MILLER: Yeah, OK.

GEORGE STONEY: Where do you go -

HELFAND: [See you?].

GEORGE STONEY: - in the mountains?

FRANK MILLER: I don't know. Tomorrow - maybe tomorrow, [even late?].

GEORGE STONEY: But where do you go?

FRANK MILLER: Oh, we'll go up, uh -

ELLEN MILLER: Rolling Rock.

FRANK MILLER: Yeah, down -

GEORGE STONEY: Oh, that's pretty, isn't it?

00:24:00

FRANK MILLER: Well, now, the friend I got coming down here, he lives in Rolling Rock. But we're planning, maybe, going up through the Shenandoah Valley.

GEORGE STONEY: Oh, that's -

FRANK MILLER: Not the Shenandoah Valley, but up through, uh -

HELFAND: (inaudible)

FRANK MILLER: - uh, go to Brevard, 64, turn right -

GEORGE STONEY: Mm-hmm.

FRANK MILLER: - and go out up to the Nantahala Gorge.

GEORGE STONEY: Oh, and up -

FRANK MILLER: Up through there.

GEORGE STONEY: - uh, the Blue - or, the - the - the Parkway?

FRANK MILLER: Yeah, go up to - no, go to Brevard and go up the Nantahala Gorge -

ELLEN MILLER: (inaudible)

FRANK MILLER: - up through the Nantahala Gorge.

JAMIE STONEY: Yep.

GEORGE STONEY: I don't know that -

FRANK MILLER: [Going over into?] -

GEORGE STONEY: - yeah.

FRANK MILLER: - north Georgia.

GEORGE STONEY: I used to go - no, that - I don't know that section. I used to -

FRANK MILLER: Now, that's a beautiful place -

HELFAND: (inaudible)

FRANK MILLER: - going up there.

GEORGE STONEY: See, I was born (inaudible) Winston-Salem.

FRANK MILLER: Yeah.

GEORGE STONEY: And we used to go up to Linville Gorge.

FRANK MILLER: Yeah, well, you ever been to, uh -

GEORGE STONEY: Pilot Mountain, that kind of thing.

FRANK MILLER: You ever been up on -

JAMIE STONEY: (inaudible)

FRANK MILLER: - uh - uh -

HELFAND: (inaudible)

FRANK MILLER: - oh, what's the name of that mountain?

JAMIE STONEY: [Sure?].

GEORGE STONEY: Uh -

FRANK MILLER: You go right up on top of it?

GEORGE STONEY: Oh, uh - uh, you mean, uh -

FRANK MILLER: [Top of Mount?] (inaudible)

GEORGE STONEY: - Mount Mitchell?

FRANK MILLER: No, no.

GEORGE STONEY: [Pisgah?]? No.

FRANK MILLER: No, no.

HELFAND: (inaudible)

FRANK MILLER: Uh -

GEORGE STONEY: Uh -

FRANK MILLER: See give states from up on top of it.

GEORGE STONEY: Oh, yes.

JAMIE STONEY: Waterrock Knob?

GEORGE STONEY: No.

FRANK MILLER: Uh, no.

00:25:00

GEORGE STONEY: Uh, you mean up in Ten- the edge of Tennessee?

FRANK MILLER: In North Carolina, yeah, but you see North Carolina, South Carolina -

JAMIE STONEY: Lookout.

GEORGE STONEY: Lookout Mountain.

FRANK MILLER: - Tennessee -

GEORGE STONEY: Lookout Mountain.

FRANK MILLER: - Georgia.

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah, wasn't that Lookout Mountain?

FRANK MILLER: No.

ELLEN MILLER: No.

FRANK MILLER: Uh -

ELLEN MILLER: You ask me -

FRANK MILLER: I know it good as I know my own name, (laughter) but I can't - GEORGE STONEY: Uh -

FRANK MILLER: - think of it right now.

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.

JAMIE STONEY: Is that Rock City?

FRANK MILLER: Yeah. No, but you go up -

GEORGE STONEY: Just wanted to get the -

FRANK MILLER: - on [the other?] -

GEORGE STONEY: - the releases -

FRANK MILLER: - past the tops of -

GEORGE STONEY: - [just when?] -

FRANK MILLER: - Wade Falls.

GEORGE STONEY: Mm-hmm.

FRANK MILLER: You ever been the tops of Wade Falls?

HELFAND: (inaudible)

GEORGE STONEY: Uh -

JAMIE STONEY: Is it Toxaway? I think I have -

FRANK MILLER: Toxaway Falls.

GEORGE STONEY: Mm-hmm.

JAMIE STONEY: - a long time ago.

GEORGE STONEY: Mm-hmm.

FRANK MILLER: Yeah.

GEORGE STONEY: What I'd like to do, uh, Judy -

HELFAND: Yeah.

GEORGE STONEY: - is just to get a picture of all of us out - just out on the porch, so I can - we can send it back to you.

HELFAND: Well, we're going to come back, right?

GEORGE STONEY: Well, [uh?] bring it back. But let me - you know, let me get a - a - my camera and take a picture [of all of us?].

HELFAND: OK.

JAMIE STONEY: OK (inaudible) head on out?

FRANK MILLER: Oh.

GEORGE STONEY: I'd like to do it outside here, I think.

HELFAND: OK.

JAMIE STONEY: [Yeah, it's?] -

GEORGE STONEY: Jamie?

JAMIE STONEY: [Yeah, watch where you put this?] -

GEORGE STONEY: Would it be better outside or inside?

JAMIE STONEY: Uh, outside's fine.

FRANK MILLER: Let's step out on the front porch a minute, here.

HELFAND: Yeah, we'll sit on your front porch.

ELLEN MILLER: Put your shoes on Frank

FRANK MILLER: No, this is all right. (laughs)

00:26:00

JAMIE STONEY: A man's in his own house, if he can't be comfortable, he's in the wrong place. (laughter)

FRANK MILLER: That's right. If I don't soon get to the bathroom, after a while I'm going to be baptized, too. (laughs)

HELFAND: Do you want to go to the bathroom?

FRANK MILLER: Hmm.

ELLEN MILLER: Go ahead.

HELFAND: Yeah.

FRANK MILLER: I'd better have.

ELLEN MILLER: Uh -

FRANK MILLER: [I had to take?] (inaudible) I got a pacemaker.

HELFAND: OK.

GEORGE STONEY: Judy!

HELFAND: Yeah?

GEORGE STONEY: I think you have the keys to my - uh, my keys to the car.

HELFAND: OK (inaudible) here, I got it.

GEORGE STONEY: The one with the Mickey Mouse thing on it.

HELFAND: I got it, I got it (inaudible) [please? Just please, you know?] - (laughter)

JAMIE STONEY: How are we going to kind of cut with Matt when I cut your reversal?

HELFAND: Well, it's OK. Which ones are your children?

ELLEN MILLER: [None?], uh - well, this one - this is me and my daughter. But these are his great-grandchildren, these. These. And this is my oldest brother and sister.

00:27:00

HELFAND: Hmm. [How?] -

ELLEN MILLER: And back here is, uh - this is some - just great-grandchildren. And this is one of his daughters. Not - that's his middle daughter, and her husband. She's an insurance salesman, agent. And Frank, Junior, they work for the same company.

HELFAND: Oh, right, I met Frank.

ELLEN MILLER: Next is her grandchildren, here.

HELFAND: Now, that must have been - do you recall maybe - I mean, when your uncle had to leave the house? Did you - what happened?

ELLEN MILLER: Oh, no, no, I - I was just real small.

HELFAND: And you [grew?] - but you - you heard - you grew up hearing about it?

ELLEN MILLER: Oh, yeah. Yeah, because, see, in the summertime, when school was out, I used to go down in the country where - they lived down, uh, below Mount Pleasant. I would go down there in the summer and spend the summer with them, 00:28:00me and my youngest brother. And, uh, you know, and I just heard about it through them, and he and my mother talking, you know?

GEORGE STONEY: (inaudible)

FRANK MILLER: Now, son, when you make a million dollars off of this, you got to send me 100,000 of it, [anyway?]. (laughter)

JAMIE STONEY: You're talking to the wrong man. My father's the one (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)

FRANK MILLER: OK, all right. I'll - I'll tell him when he comes back in. (laughter) Yeah.

JAMIE STONEY: Why don't you go on ahead, we'll just follow you.

ELLEN MILLER: OK.

FRANK MILLER: I believe it's cooled off a little, [uh, it's just?] hotter in there than (inaudible) (laughs)

ELLEN MILLER: Well, the air conditioner was [caught?] - turned off.

FRANK MILLER: See, we're so poor, the poor people call us poor, [so that?] - (laughter)

HELFAND: Now, were these mill houses?

ELLEN MILLER: Oh, no.

FRANK MILLER: It - what?

ELLEN MILLER: No, no.

HELFAND: No, they're not -

GEORGE STONEY: God -

00:29:00

FRANK MILLER: Now, see, uh, I got a pacemaker up here. That helped me keep going. (laughs)

ELLEN MILLER: You know where - the [Rock?] Mill used to be up there where the condominiums are, up on the corner? That was the mill, and back in behind there, that was mill houses.

FRANK MILLER: All back in there.

ELLEN MILLER: All back in there. But they have been sold, you know, to private people.

FRANK MILLER: See, this is all built up in here.

ELLEN MILLER: Mm-hmm.

JAMIE STONEY: They leave the original floors in?

GEORGE STONEY: Uh -

ELLEN MILLER: Yeah, yeah.

JAMIE STONEY: With all the staples from the, uh -

ELLEN MILLER: Yeah, I think so.

F2: Wouldn't happen to know - [the rooms?] - that house over there, do you?

FRANK MILLER: You what?

ELLEN MILLER: No, I don't.

F2: [That house?] that's sitting over there? You don't know who owns it?

ELLEN MILLER: No.

FRANK MILLER: No, I don't. I sure don't.

(inaudible)

F2: Thank you.

HELFAND: You think they want to buy it?

FRANK MILLER: I don't know, [they got?] a for sale sign -

ELLEN MILLER: It's -

FRANK MILLER: - out there.

ELLEN MILLER: It's for -

HELFAND: [Think it?] -

ELLEN MILLER: No, he's talking about [Clark Eaton's?] house.

GEORGE STONEY: It's going to be too dark out here, isn't it?

JAMIE STONEY: Huh? Oh, if you want -

MILLER: Oh.

JAMIE STONEY: - you can get the one I have with the flash on it.

FRANK MILLER: I don't know who owns -

HELFAND: It's OK, we'll do it in the house.

GEORGE STONEY: OK, all right.

HELFAND: OK.

GEORGE STONEY: Judy?

HELFAND: Yeah?

GEORGE STONEY: Did - I - I can't find -

FRANK MILLER: [Yeah, I told him out there?] -

GEORGE STONEY: - those - that release folder.

ELLEN MILLER: It's in here beside of the - you left a folder in here beside of the couch.

00:30:00

HELFAND: (inaudible) yeah, [but that - that's not it?].

GEORGE STONEY: That - let's see.

HELFAND: Did you bring it? Did you -

GEORGE STONEY: Well -

HELFAND: - did you take it with you?

ELLEN MILLER: There's one beside of the couch, there, between the table and the couch. GEORGE STONEY: Oh, OK, that may be -

HELFAND: (inaudible)

GEORGE STONEY: No, it's not here, either.

ELLEN MILLER: It's got your name on it.

HELFAND: Yeah, it does.

GEORGE STONEY: Oh, [there?].

(overlapping dialogue; inaudible)

JAMIE STONEY: - [were together?] (inaudible)

FRANK MILLER: - [he seemed like a fine man?].

GEORGE STONEY: No, uh -

ELLEN MILLER: Yeah.

FRANK MILLER: [He's your?] daddy (laughter)

JAMIE STONEY: [Yeah?].

FRANK MILLER: - [and he seems like a fine brother?].

JAMIE STONEY: [Mm, been?] my daddy for 35 years.

GEORGE STONEY: No.

ELLEN MILLER: [Oh?].

FRANK MILLER: Mm. Well, now, you treat him like a daddy, don't you?

GEORGE STONEY: And I cleaned out, so -

JAMIE STONEY: Sometimes.

HELFAND: OK.

FRANK MILLER: [Turns out?] -

GEORGE STONEY: Let's - let's -

FRANK MILLER: [You got it?] -

GEORGE STONEY: - do the picture in here.

FRANK MILLER: - [all the time?].

HELFAND: OK, all right -

FRANK MILLER: ['Cuz you won't have him?] -

HELFAND: - then I'll do -

FRANK MILLER: - all the time.

HELFAND: - the release after, OK?

GEORGE STONEY: OK.

JAMIE STONEY: Uh, well, we - we don't argue -

HELFAND: OK.

JAMIE STONEY: - anymore, we just discuss -

FRANK MILLER: Yeah.

HELFAND: [Marley?], go take a picture. [Jane, is this?] (inaudible)

JAMIE STONEY: [Sure thing, sure?].

GEORGE STONEY: Let's do the picture in here.

JAMIE STONEY: There's not enough light outside, so I think we have to go -

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.

JAMIE STONEY: - back in [for that?].

HELFAND: Hey, George?

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah?

HELFAND: We'll film you taking a picture -

FRANK MILLER: You know what I told her?

HELFAND: - of the two of them, OK?

GEORGE STONEY: Yes.

FRANK MILLER: I [said, now, if?] you make a million dollars off of this thing, you got to send me a 100 of it, ain't you? [I mean, that?] -

GEORGE STONEY: Well, I was hearing what you said about Mr. Cannon. (laughter)

FRANK MILLER: Yeah.

GEORGE STONEY: And I don't want you to say that about me. (laughter)

FRANK MILLER: Well, you just send me 100,000, then, and I won't [say that much?].

GEORGE STONEY: If I can make a million -

HELFAND: Just turn it back [and?] (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)

00:31:00

GEORGE STONEY: If I can make a million, I can [show you?] -

FRANK MILLER: Yeah. (laughs)

GEORGE STONEY: Let's see, if you could sit there, sir?

FRANK MILLER: Yep.

ELLEN MILLER: (inaudible)

GEORGE STONEY: And we'll have you sitting right here. Yeah, this is going to make a nice picture. (laughter) Uh, let's see - [but I'm?] going to have to shoot it fairly slowly. And I'll take about a 30th at two, what about that, Jamie?

JAMIE STONEY: Probably. GEORGE STONEY: It's, uh - let's see. That's a little - it's a little hot, uh -

JAMIE STONEY: Go to 2.8?

GEORGE STONEY: [Now?] -

JAMIE STONEY: Or [16th at two?].

GEORGE STONEY: Uh, no, actually - (phone rings) uh-oh! I think [I got us - it's?] -

FRANK MILLER: Hello? Hey. Uh, hon, let me call you back. The movie people's up here taking pictures and everything of me and Grandma, and I'm right - just 00:32:00fixin' to sign a million-dollar contract. (laughter) Huh? Yeah, OK. OK, bye-bye.

HELFAND: (inaudible) [call a mark?]?

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.

FRANK MILLER: That was my granddaughter. (laughs)

GEORGE STONEY: OK.

ELLEN MILLER: (inaudible) that was -

GEORGE STONEY: OK.

HELFAND: [And sit here?].

ELLEN MILLER: - [nice of 'em to?] -

GEORGE STONEY: Oh, you -

HELFAND: Can you sit back down?

ELLEN MILLER: Oh, yeah.

FRANK MILLER: Yeah, I had my [granddaughter?] -

GEORGE STONEY: OK.

FRANK MILLER: - [she's fixin'?] to go to college (inaudible)

GEORGE STONEY: I - a little closer, uh -

FRANK MILLER: Little closer.

GEORGE STONEY: - [no?], uh, Judy?

HELFAND: Yes?

GEORGE STONEY: Little closer to the - you're out of range, Judy. Yeah, you'd better - going to have to get - right, you're going to have to fake it, get right behind him, otherwise I'm -

HELFAND: But we're not - that's not what we're trying to do, Dad.

JAMIE STONEY: We're trying to get your reversal.

GEORGE STONEY: Well, I - Judy -

HELFAND: Yeah?

GEORGE STONEY: - can't you come in a little? Come closer. That's it, now that's exactly what I wanted. Everybody still, including me. (click) [I'm shooting at a 15th?]. (laughter) Judy? See if you can -

00:33:00

HELFAND: Yes, sir, OK, [and let's put this?] -

JAMIE STONEY: [Bet now you want a cut?].

HELFAND: [Now I def- you?] - come on - come on right here with me. OK. (laughter)

JAMIE STONEY: [Or this new?] creature, we're joined at the hip. (laughter)

HELFAND: [Here?].

GEORGE STONEY: Uh, OK.

HELFAND: [Come on, Dad?].

GEORGE STONEY: No -

HELFAND: [I can?] -

GEORGE STONEY: - this is -

JAMIE STONEY: Um, Judy says I can't do this.

HELFAND: Yeah.

GEORGE STONEY: This is a 15th of a second, so -

FRANK MILLER: Now, which one looks the oldest? Me or him? (laughter) I'll let him [sit down in the chair?].

JAMIE STONEY: I'm not touching that one with a 10-foot pole. (laughter)

ELLEN MILLER: [Yeah?]. (laughter)

GEORGE STONEY: OK.

FRANK MILLER: (laughs) Yeah.

GEORGE STONEY: (laughs) Uh -

HELFAND: OK! (click)

GEORGE STONEY: OK?

FRANK MILLER: Cheese? (laughter)

ELLEN MILLER: [Yeah?]. (laughter) (click)

GEORGE STONEY: Ah! (laughter) Good!

FRANK MILLER: [Yeah?]. (laughter)

GEORGE STONEY: Thank you.

JAMIE STONEY: Now you got to take -

FRANK MILLER: Yeah.

JAMIE STONEY: - one of me and Judy like this.

GEORGE STONEY: OK. (laughter) OK. What, like this?

HELFAND: You know what we look like?

JAMIE STONEY: What?

HELFAND: We look like - wait, what were those people who had the pitchforks?

JAMIE STONEY: Yes.

HELFAND: We look -

JAMIE STONEY: American Gothic. (laughter)

00:34:00

GEORGE STONEY: Maybe now the - you are - you're in better light, I can - I can - maybe get a little -

JAMIE STONEY: Oh, I'm going to get you for that one, Judy.

HELFAND: Were you filming?

GEORGE STONEY: - little more - [the?] -

JAMIE STONEY: Yes.

HELFAND: [Oh, yeah?]? (laughs)

GEORGE STONEY: (click) OK.

JAMIE STONEY: OK. (laughter)

HELFAND: OK.

GEORGE STONEY: OK.

JAMIE STONEY: OK, we leaving?

HELFAND: All right.

GEORGE STONEY: Yes, we [had?] -

JAMIE STONEY: OK, [when you guys?] -

HELFAND: So -

GEORGE STONEY: We've got a long day tomorrow.

HELFAND: Yes, sir.

GEORGE STONEY: You know, we got a - we're shooting - tomorrow morning, we're going out to, uh, you know where the - the racetrack is and -

FRANK MILLER: Mm-hmm.

GEORGE STONEY: Well, we're going out there. There's - we've got a - a - a black fellow, 85 years old, who wrote - wrote a letter of protest to Washington -

FRANK MILLER: Yeah.

GEORGE STONEY: - in 1934.

FRANK MILLER: Oh.

GEORGE STONEY: We found it - Judy found his - his letter in the archives.

FRANK MILLER: Oh, what's her name?

GEORGE STONEY: The - Judy, here.

ELLEN MILLER: [No?].

FRANK MILLER: [I know?]. The one in the letter, [that wrote?] -

GEORGE STONEY: Oh, that - found the letter.

FRANK MILLER: [What's the?] -

GEORGE STONEY: His name is Graham.

HELFAND: Bruce.

FRANK MILLER: Graham.

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah. What's his first name, Judy?

HELFAND: Bruce.

GEORGE STONEY: Bruce Graham.

FRANK MILLER: Bruce Graham.

GEORGE STONEY: He's 85 years old.

FRANK MILLER: I don't -

00:35:00

GEORGE STONEY: We thought he'd passed, and then we found out that he's - he's out there.

FRANK MILLER: Yeah.

GEORGE STONEY: And so we're going to be doing some photographing with him -

FRANK MILLER: [So, he?] -

GEORGE STONEY: - tomorrow morning.

FRANK MILLER: That's a -

GEORGE STONEY: And then tomorrow night, we've got a - a, uh, reunion of one of the mills - villages.

HELFAND: What were you going to say?

FRANK MILLER: I'm trying to think about the man that run for governor - I believe it was Dr. MacDonald, run for our governor one time. And that fellah from Shelby - what was his name, Ellen? He had long hair, like that?

GEORGE STONEY: Oh, uh -

FRANK MILLER: [And he won?] -

GEORGE STONEY: - it's Clyde [Ring-Healey?]?

FRANK MILLER: He won the election.

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.

FRANK MILLER: But my principal over at the Hartford School, he was for union and MacDonald was, too, you see? And they got shed of my principal over to Hartford High School.

GEORGE STONEY: (inaudible)

FRANK MILLER: Yeah, so he was up at - I went with the - my brother-in-law, Red Lisk, it was up at Winston-Salem or [Greensbury, went?] to a meeting, and MacDonald was speaking. And my principal was setting up on the platform with 00:36:00him. Wasn't long after that, the political party got shed of him here in Cabbarus County. And he was one of the finest men I ever saw. I mean, he was concerned about children. He'd come to our home, you know, and try to get us to stay in school. But they got shed of him.

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.

FRANK MILLER: Yeah.

GEORGE STONEY: That's the way it goes.

HELFAND: (inaudible)

FRANK MILLER: Yeah.

HELFAND: - [and talking?] (inaudible)

FRANK MILLER: You have -

GEORGE STONEY: OK.

FRANK MILLER: - a good night.

JAMIE STONEY: [He's pretty much?] -

GEORGE STONEY: Thank you, sir.

JAMIE STONEY: - pretty much out of here.

FRANK MILLER: Yeah.

GEORGE STONEY: Thank you very much, [man?]. So -

FRANK MILLER: Yeah.

GEORGE STONEY: - uh, Judy, um, we know when they're coming back from the country?

HELFAND: Yeah, next Thursday.

GEORGE STONEY: OK.

FRANK MILLER: Get - give me a - give me a call.

HELFAND: You're coming back -

GEORGE STONEY: OK.

HELFAND: - next Thursday, 'cause Friday you go to the beauty parlor.

ELLEN MILLER: We'll be back by then, yeah.

GEORGE STONEY: OK, good.

HELFAND: OK.

FRANK MILLER: Now, you give me a call, 'cause, uh, I don't know when next week or - it might be the following week that you'll have to come.

HELFAND: OK, following week's OK.

FRANK MILLER: And then she have to go - just give me a call -

HELFAND: Yes, sir.

FRANK MILLER: - [say?] -

GEORGE STONEY: OK.

FRANK MILLER: - then I'll - I'll let you know.

HELFAND: OK.

GEORGE STONEY: We'll do that.

HELFAND: It's a pleasure.

FRANK MILLER: Yeah. I'll let you know.

HELFAND: OK.

GEORGE STONEY: Thank you.

FRANK MILLER: And I'll see if I can dig up some more about the union business. (laughter)

00:37:00

GEORGE STONEY: Very good.

FRANK MILLER: [See?], I got a - I got a sister-in-law over yonder. Her husband's dead. My brother's dead now, but she might recall a little bit about this. I don't know.

ELLEN MILLER: Did she ever work in the mill?

FRANK MILLER: And Pearl, she did, yeah. Yeah, Lord, yeah.

ELLEN MILLER: [It was?] -

FRANK MILLER: (inaudible) worked mill, and Pearl, she was just an old lady -

ELLEN MILLER: Here - here's your papers.

HELFAND: OK.

FRANK MILLER: Yeah, don't forget your papers. (laughter)

HELFAND: [OK?] (inaudible)

FRANK MILLER: If you do, I'll - liable to sign that contract sure enough. (laughter) Y'all be careful -

GEORGE STONEY: OK.

FRANK MILLER: - have a good night and, uh -

GEORGE STONEY: Thank you, sir.

FRANK MILLER: - yeah.

GEORGE STONEY: Take care.

FRANK MILLER: OK, good night. Be careful.

GEORGE STONEY: Good night. (laughter)

JAMIE STONEY: OK.

HELFAND: OK. Want to get a still of that house?

JAMIE STONEY: A little dark -

HELFAND: (inaudible)

00:38:00

JAMIE STONEY: (inaudible) how do you think - of the success of this interview?

GEORGE STONEY: Oh, I think we got some very good stuff [there?], yeah. OK.

HELFAND: Forgot about the refrigerator.

(break in audio)

GEORGE STONEY: Do this when, uh, we have better light and when they're going - something - action, some action and -

JAMIE STONEY: [But he's?] walking out of the house.

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah, oh, OK, I didn't realize that.

JAMIE STONEY: We're rolling.

GEORGE STONEY: OK.

FRANK MILLER: Good ol' Hopalong Cassidy and the (laughter) Sundance Kid. (laughter)

GEORGE STONEY: OK.

JAMIE STONEY: (inaudible)

GEORGE STONEY: We're blocking him, here.

FRANK MILLER: (inaudible) [kids, there's more out there?].

JAMIE STONEY: OK.

[No audio from 38:46 - 52:33]