(beeping)
ERNEST MOORE: (inaudible), uh, with (inaudible). I'd give
anything I'd kept that.GEORGE STONEY: Hmm.
ERNEST MOORE: My uncle'd come here
he'd pick it. I never could pick it. (laughter) That was -- I didn't try too much.GEORGE STONEY: You made it but you couldn't pick it.
ERNEST MOORE: No.
HELFAND: Could you sing?
ERNEST MOORE: No.
HELFAND: You never sang?
(laughter) I don't believe you.GEORGE STONEY: Claude and Ruby, this...
HELFAND: Ernest. Go ahead. Go back (inaudible)
GEORGE STONEY: Ernest.
RUBY MOORE: Yes.
GEORGE STONEY: And Ruby.
RUBY MOORE: Oh.
GEORGE STONEY: One of the
things that, uh, this book reminds me of --RUBY MOORE: I didn't know you were
going to use this [whole thing?].GEORGE STONEY: -- one of the things this book
reminds me of is how...HELFAND: Can you say [that again?], George?
GEORGE STONEY: Yeah. OK. Well, Ernest and -- and Ruby --
RUBY MOORE: Yes.
GEORGE STONEY: -- one of the things this book reminds me of is the education that
I've been getting in the last couple of years working on this film --RUBY
MOORE: Mm-hmm. 00:01:00GEORGE STONEY: -- because I grew up in Winston-Salem as a
middle-class person, you -- you know, desperately clinging to the lower end of -- (laughs) "We don't want to be like those people." And feeling superior to cotton-mill workers. And this has been a -- a terrific education for me.RUBY MOORE: Mm-hmm.
GEORGE STONEY: And to see what's happened to you people
from moving from farm to having two sons graduated from Duke, is just amazing.HELFAND: What did you think of cotton-mill people?
GEORGE STONEY: Well, they
were people who lived on the edge of town, in the first place. They were "them." (laughs)ERNEST MOORE: Yeah.
RUBY MOORE: Mm-hmm.
ERNEST MOORE: Yeah.
GEORGE STONEY: They were people whom I was -- I don't say that my -- my father
was particularly against 'em. But somehow we always were made to feel -- and I don't know where it came from -- but we were made to feel that we should be -- we were superior.ERNEST MOORE: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
RUBY MOORE: Yeah.
00:02:00GEORGE STONEY: And I don't know where it came from. But I realize then how much
that's cut me off from people whom I could've been not only associating with, but now politically have so much in common with.ERNEST MOORE: Well, way
back, uh, years ago, back in the early '20s, way -- from back on down -- the mills, textile workers wasn't educated. They had no schooling. That's one reason they s-- they stuck to what they could do. And most of where the textile was, they wasn't no other manufacturers. They wasn't no other manufacturers in Gastonia. Gastonia.GEORGE STONEY: So you had -- you didn't have a choice.
ERNEST MOORE: No, you know, back then you didn't.
GEORGE STONEY: Mm-hmm.
ERNEST MOORE: You might work at a dry goods store or a store, sumpin', but
00:03:00wasn't no industries, see.GEORGE STONEY: But what happened to you -- you
worked in the mill.RUBY MOORE: Seventeen years.
GEORGE STONEY: Seventeen years.
Then you had a family.RUBY MOORE: Right.
GEORGE STONEY: (laughs) And then you
went back to school.RUBY MOORE: Right.
GEORGE STONEY: Yeah. When -- what --
age of 39, I believe, wasn't it?RUBY MOORE: Forty-two.
GEORGE STONEY: Forty-two. (laughs) And what happened after that?
RUBY MOORE: Well, uh,
I didn't graduate from business college, but I got a good job. And so I went to work. And I worked at, uh, one place for --ERNEST MOORE: (inaudible)
RUBY MOORE: == I'd rather not name 'em -- I -- I worked for about, uh, two and a
half years.ERNEST MOORE: [Down the Bennis farm?].
RUBY MOORE: Uh-huh. Yes.
ERNEST MOORE: Was an office.
RUBY MOORE: I -- Yeah.
ERNEST MOORE: Mm-hmm.
RUBY MOORE: I worked -- I was a -- a secretary. And then, uh, this job came --
opened at Morris Jewelers--GEORGE STONEY: Mm-hmm.
RUBY MOORE: -- for one of the
ladies that works -- that, uh, goes to my church --GEORGE STONEY: Mm-hmm.
RUBY MOORE: -- she told me about it.
She said, "We're over there looking for an office worker," and said, 00:04:00"I think you'd like it." And said, "Just go talk to him about it." And I went up there, and he just hired me right then. And I went to work, and I worked there till I retired. Worked there 15 years. So. Anyway. They were very pleasant years. Very pleasant years. And I told them I worked --ERNEST MOORE: And when she -- when she retired, she was the
office manager.RUBY MOORE: Not really. No.
ERNEST MOORE: Well, yeah --
RUBY MOORE: No.
ERNEST MOORE: -- you was.
RUBY MOORE: No.
ERNEST MOORE: You was kind
of the office manager.RUBY MOORE: [Arnie Snow?]. (laughter)
ERNEST MOORE: You
was. What was you? What was you? You took a...RUBY MOORE: Well, I was a --
sort of looked after, uh, you -- you've, uh -- I wish you hadn't said that. (laughter) Because I was not office manager.M1: In other words, she ran the
place, but she never let 'em know it.RUBY MOORE: No, I was credit man-- par--
credit manager for a while.ERNEST MOORE: Oh -- oh, cred-- oh yeah. Well,
credit manager. Credit manager.RUBY MOORE: Yeah.
ERNEST MOORE: My mist--
credit manager.RUBY MOORE: Yeah.
ERNEST MOORE: That's what the -- that woman
who quit.RUBY MOORE: That's what [Paulie?] did.
ERNEST MOORE: That's what
-- Paulie [Kirby?] quit.RUBY MOORE: And I took her job.
ERNEST MOORE: Yeah.
And you took her -- credit manager.RUBY MOORE: (inaudible)
ERNEST MOORE: Oh
yeah. All right. All right. All right.RUBY MOORE: Not ma--
ERNEST MOORE: All
right.RUBY MOORE: -- not office manager.
GEORGE STONEY: Well, you've got a
00:05:00beautiful house here. We've seen where you were born. Uh, not where you were born, when you say where you were -- worked -- where you lived when you first went into the mill. We've seen the house -- the first house you built. And now we've seen this. You were gonna show me the plans for this house.ERNEST MOORE: Yeah. I done showed them.
GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.
ERNEST MOORE: Blueprint.
GEORGE STONEY: Could you show that to me?
ERNEST MOORE: Again?
GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.
RUBY MOORE: I thought you showed it to him. Is that -- [he'll
bring it back?].GEORGE STONEY: Yeah. (rustling paper)
CREW MEMBER: Could we
bring it over here?GEORGE STONEY: Want to bring it over here? Ernest? Want to
bring it over here?ERNEST MOORE: (inaudible)
GEORGE STONEY: So this looks
completely professional to me. And you did it all yourself?ERNEST MOORE: Oh,
almost ev-- yeah. Yeah. I -- I drawed that myself.M1: Drew it all yourself?
ERNEST MOORE: Yeah.
RUBY MOORE: Mm-hmm. [He sure?] did.
M1: You ever have any
drafting courses, or this is all just with a ruler -- 00:06:00RUBY MOORE: No, he just
drew it.M1: -- and common sense?
GEORGE STONEY: I think it indicates, uh, how
much skill you developed working on your -- your various jobs.RUBY MOORE: Well,
he sort of looked at others too --GEORGE STONEY: Mm-hmm.
RUBY MOORE: -- and
learned from that, and just learned how to do it. He just did it.GEORGE STONEY: One more thing. We've been -- we've talked to some of the kind of
managers of factories. And they've said, "Well, textile work didn't really take much skill." And so they could kind of -- workers were kind of intercha-- interchangeable.HELFAND: George, can you say that again?
GEORGE STONEY: Yup. We've talked to some -- we talked to some textile manufacturers
--ERNEST MOORE: (rustling paper) I drawed [through?] this -- the first one I
drawed.GEORGE STONEY: Aha. This is the first...
ERNEST MOORE: First one. And
I -- and I drawed -- I don't know [how come I drawed two more?] -- sumpin' -- 00:07:00I -- I drawed -- that's the first one, and I drawed the other one.GEORGE STONEY: And this is your second.
ERNEST MOORE: Yup. That's the last one --
that's why they took -- built [my?] third.GEORGE STONEY: Uh-huh. Well,
Ernest, I've talked to some textile engineers, kind of systems managers, and -- oh, people like the [Bideau?] people. And they seem to act like textile workers were -- didn't take much -- didn't have to have much skill.ERNEST MOORE: Uh, most of the job you didn't. But when new machinery come out, like
a Abbott winder, automatic spooler. And when [he kept them?] up, you had to -- you'd have to be training for weeks. You had to keep it timed. Had to keep the knotter up, goes 'round. Pick -- they'd put their bobbins thread on it, 00:08:00hook it up. Knotter'd go 'round. Pick it up, go through the knotter. Lay it up on the cheese. And that cheese went to [twisterin'?]. And you had to keep all -- if you're the fixer, you had to keep all that timed. Keep the knotter up. Had right much skill, the -- this -- this -- this new machinery. And it was comin' in before I retired.GEORGE STONEY: And I gather that just
getting more and more and more skill --ERNEST MOORE: Oh yeah.
GEORGE STONEY: --
(inaudible).ERNEST MOORE: Oh yeah. You have to -- we had to -- they left a
['structor?] there when they put in that old (inaudible) winder. And we used to (inaudible) on 'em for several weeks.GEORGE STONEY: The present-day
textile workers have got to be --ERNEST MOORE: Oh yeah. Yeah.
GEORGE STONEY: -- even more...
ERNEST MOORE: A lot of skilled, a lot of skilled work.
Yeah.GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.
ERNEST MOORE: Way back there it wasn't a --
spooler, thread it up, take a knotter and -- old machinery.GEORGE STONEY: Mm-hmm.
ERNEST MOORE: But new machinery comes out, it -- or it -- it --
00:09:00complicated.GEORGE STONEY: Yeah. And expensive machinery.
ERNEST MOORE: Oh
yeah.GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.
M2: You know the -- the title of "loom fixer" no
longer exists. You're now a "loom technician." Or a "textile executive technician."HELFAND: George, I just wonder, if, um -- if spending time with
Ernest and hearing about all this has challenged a lot of the, uh, myths, or the misconceptions, that we had, before we even came here, in terms of ability to organize.GEORGE STONEY: Well, (sighs) one of the things that is still a mystery
to me --HELFAND: One second.
GEORGE STONEY: -- I -- I --
M1: Hang on a sec.
Let me get --GEORGE STONEY: -- have to be frank with you.
M1: -- let me get
over here.GEORGE STONEY: OK.
HELFAND: Do you want to be on your knee?
GEORGE STONEY: Yeah, sure. He can look up at him.
CREW MEMBER: Here, watch the boom.
GEORGE STONEY: One of the things that's still a mystery to me is how you
people organized in '34 so that there were so many locals, and you got hundreds of thousands of people to come out. They've never been able to do 00:10:00that since. Is there -- you have any explanation about for why and how that happened?ERNEST MOORE: Well, uh, it -- I don't understand myself. But, uh,
(pause) we never -- we never have had no other president come out has told the people they oughta organize and had the right to organize. And, uh, I guess that, uh, that knocked -- that knocked the faith in unions back when we lost the general strike.GEORGE STONEY: So that it was the New Deal that gave people the
hope.ERNEST MOORE: Yeah. That's right.
GEORGE STONEY: And the defeat killed
it.ERNEST MOORE: It -- it hurt.
GEORGE STONEY: Mm-hmm.
ERNEST MOORE: It hurt.
Yeah. 00:11:00GEORGE STONEY: Well, one of the things that's so interesting to us is to
see young textile workers now, how excited they get when they found that way back yonder, their grandparents actually did organize. Because they've been told all of their lives, "Southern people can't organize. They don't want to organize." And this has made it harder for them.ERNEST MOORE: Yeah. Uh,
it would be hard now to organize. On up today. It'd be hard to get -- get 'em to organize. They got that fear.GEORGE STONEY: Well, suppose, uh,
President Clinton spoke to the textile workers and said, "We want you to organize."ERNEST MOORE: Uh, they'd have to have better proof. (laughter)
00:12:00For President Clinton, he couldn't -- he couldn't come down here and tell the -- the owners, "Recognize the union." And, uh, officials, the state of North Carolina, they might not like it. And there's -- it'd be -- it'd be complicated.GEORGE STONEY: Yeah. OK. Thank you. It'll be complicated.
You're right. (laughter) It will be complicated.CREW MEMBER: We're just
gonna roll some [tone?].HELFAND: OK.
GEORGE STONEY: OK. Should --
CREW MEMBER: OK. [Load to lee?]. (break in audio)
GEORGE STONEY: Because, uh, you
can't depend just on the position of any one leader. That's -- I think -- you were saying that you think the -- Ernest, you were saying that you thought they struck too early.ERNEST MOORE: Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
GEORGE STONEY: I have --
ERNEST MOORE: Struck too early.
GEORGE STONEY: -- I have a different theory. I
00:13:00think that they depended on Washington too much. They sa-- Washington said they had a right to organize, so they said, "OK, we'll come out, it's gonna be fine." And then when Washington said, "If you call off the strike, we'll make sure that you don't get fired and that it'll all be worked out," it didn't happen. And my feeling is that so long as workers count on Washington to do the job for them, they're gonna be weak.ERNEST MOORE: Yeah. Uh,
Washington can't rule the local court. Can't rule the lower court.GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.
ERNEST MOORE: And, uh, after they busted union, I -- I don't
guess they had the funds to carry it -- carry it on to higher courts. But, uh, 00:14:00I didn't -- when it lost, we'd -- we -- we lost the u-- we lost the strike. Just lost.GEORGE STONEY: Now, we're gonna be talking very soon with one of
the investigators from Washington who worked with the labor board. He was a very sincere man. We've got his reports. He worked like -- just blue blazes -- to clear up these things. But even he has to face the fact that it took a long, long time. Month after month. Sometimes three or four years.ERNEST MOORE: To get it through.
GEORGE STONEY: To get it through.
ERNEST MOORE: That's -- that's -- that's what the textile and the -- that's
what hurt organized labor. If you'd have a hearin', it'd take too long whether you win or lose. So you take the most of textile workers. They didn't -- they didn't have -- they couldn't -- they couldn't last that 00:15:00long. After struck and didn't have no job. They couldn't last that long. So that's -- they think about that, [you see?]?GEORGE STONEY: Yeah. I see
it.ERNEST MOORE: I tell you what helped, uh, some of these plants, uh,
organize. When they commenced putting the black people in the mills, nearly all them goes for the union.GEORGE STONEY: Why?
ERNEST MOORE: Well, he wasn't --
he -- he come up hard. Had it hard all of his life. And he's willin' -- seems like he's willin' more sacrifice than some of the white people. I've noticed that. They can -- I reckon they think they can, "Well, we can -- we'll -- we can tough it out." I -- I've noticed that. They were -- I mean, most of the black people be for union. What I've talked to.GEORGE STONEY: Well, that's what we've found. We've, uh, worked -- we've
00:16:00photographed in -- a lot of locals, and they certainly have been strong. My theory is that they came out of the Civil Rights movement, about '64, when they first started working in the mills. So they came from a victory. It wasn't a cheap victory. I mean, lots of people got killed. But they had a victory.ERNEST MOORE: Yeah.
GEORGE STONEY: The white people have come from
three generations of -- of defeat.ERNEST MOORE: Yeah.
GEORGE STONEY: And I
guess that's the difference. But having said that, something's gotta change. (pause) You think it will?ERNEST MOORE: I don't know. Don't know.
GEORGE STONEY: Neither do I.
ERNEST MOORE: Don't know.
GEORGE STONEY: I don't
know either. Yeah. Yeah. OK. (break in audio)CREW MEMBER: Thirty seconds of
room tone.M1: OK.
HELFAND: You guys are making me cry.
GEORGE STONEY: OK.
00:17:00CREW MEMBER: We just need everybody to hold still for about thirty... (rustling
papers)HELFAND: Thirty -- thirty...
CREW MEMBER: OK, but first -- we're just
-- we have to record the sound of the room for editing.HELFAND: Just thirty
seconds, sweetie.CREW MEMBER: We just need everybody to stand still --
HELFAND: Just [be?] quiet.
CREW MEMBER: -- for 30 seconds. (pause) OK. End
room tone.GEORGE STONEY: OK. (break in audio) (off-mic conversation)
GEORGE STONEY: (inaudible) much. [Again?], I don't want to get his son in here all
the time. I think because this is gonna be distractions. You know, the people 00:18:00looking off, people looking not bored, people looking watch -- you see, it can be very distracting.HELFAND: Well, you can...
GEORGE STONEY: It can be very
distracting.HELFAND: [I know. OK?].
GEORGE STONEY: -- to have too many people
in a scene.HELFAND: I just think he might be helpful because he was last week
when we were here.GEORGE STONEY: (sighs) He was also -- yeah. The voice,
everything else, is so un-- unfocused.HELFAND: His voice?
GEORGE STONEY: Yes.
(break in audio)GEORGE STONEY: OK. OK, Jamie, we've got to get it -- (break
in audio)CREW MEMBER: Rolling.
GEORGE STONEY: Good morning.
EVELYN CLARY: Say
good morning, Russell! (laughs)M3: Wanna sit up on the other end, where you'll
be close to the TV?RUSSELL CLARY: Yeah, all right.
HELFAND: As long as -- as
long as that new... 00:19:00EVELYN CLARY: I'll get his pillow...
GEORGE STONEY: We're very pleased to see you because we've been looking (laughs)
all over the place for people --RUSSELL CLARY: Yeah.
GEORGE STONEY: -- who can
remember back to '34. And we're actually at -- in Gastonia, at this big Labor Day parade.RUSSELL CLARY: Mm-hmm. We always cooperate with the Gastonia
people.GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.
RUSSELL CLARY: Gazette -- I've been taking it all
my life.GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.
RUSSELL CLARY: Ever since I can remember --
GEORGE STONEY: Mm-hmm.
RUSSELL CLARY: -- I been taking the Gastonia Gazette --
GEORGE STONEY: Uh-huh.
RUSSELL CLARY: -- we -- we appreciate when all the other people
-- my brother-in-law used to be the managing editor over there -- Ray [Jimmerson?].GEORGE STONEY: Uh-huh.
RUSSELL CLARY: And, uh, he married my
wife's sister. And, uh -- we always -- he'd enjoy 00:20:00reading the paper every day.GEORGE STONEY: Well, we were seeing you particularly because we -- you
worked in the mills over there.RUSSELL CLARY: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I worked over
(inaudible) about all my life, ever since I was 15 years old. (laughter)EVELYN CLARY: How many years?
RUSSELL CLARY: I retired over there. Carolina Mills,
now. (inaudible) sold out to Carolina Mill.GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.
EVELYN CLARY: How many years did you work there?
RUSSELL CLARY: I worked with them a
short while before I retired. And they always talking about the -- the trees around here. The -- what is the name of the tree?EVELYN CLARY: Chestnut?
RUSSELL CLARY: Chestnut trees? I know where there's some out in our own
backyard over here. On top of Spencer Mountain?GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.
00:21:00RUSSELL CLARY: You start facing towards Charlotte, looking over at the high building
over there, with the northwest? Well, there's trees right there at that rock quarry, that grow up -- look like you're growing [similar?] outta -- outta rock. But they are chestnut trees. I've been up (inaudible) [year?] when we have our services up there and Fourth of July, a lot of time. You go up there and have a little celebration. And the trees do look like they're growing right up outta rock. (laughter) And you can't see 'em, you know --GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.
RUSSELL CLARY: -- until they get filled out pretty good.
GEORGE STONEY: We were thinking about another celebration, way back in 1934.
RUSSELL CLARY: Nineteen thirty-six.
GEORGE STONEY: Nineteen thirty-four.
RUSSELL CLARY: Nineteen.
GEORGE STONEY: When, uh --
RUSSELL CLARY: Yeah.
GEORGE STONEY: -- you remember, you were working at the Smyres then.
RUSSELL CLARY: Yeah. I was working at Smyre then. That's when they had that big
00:22:00strike up here and everything. At Firestone. And we went to -- up there to our our plant up there (inaudible) [and around and about?], and they never negotiated with us. And they stopped their [mill?] until the strike was settled. Which would have been just a few days. And everything went on smoothly. And everybody out a few days, went right back to work like nothing had ever happened.GEORGE STONEY: Do you remember Albert [Hinson?]?
RUSSELL CLARY: Yeah, I remember Albert Hinson. In fact, about it is, you remind me of
him a whole lot. (laughter) Sure do.GEORGE STONEY: Well, tell us about Albert
Hinson. 00:23:00RUSSELL CLARY: Well, uh, he was just a regular ordinary fella. And he
thought we could get in with that union leaders (inaudible) he'd rake in a pile of money, I reckon. By helping them get -- be able to join the union and pay their dues. I joined, but I never did have no -- I never did have no money to pay no dues. (laughter) So, uh, I -- I actually never -- never did, what you say, join up with them, 'cause I -- I didn't -- I didn't have the money to pay. So, uh, a lot of guys there, they just -- everything just went [dead head?] with the union. And people went back to work.GEORGE STONEY: How many
people joined the union?RUSSELL CLARY: I don't know. Wasn't -- there
wasn't so terrible many. 'Cause, uh, they were like myself. They didn't have no money to pay the dues. 00:24:00GEORGE STONEY: Do you know why you joined the
union?RUSSELL CLARY: Well, we -- we thought maybe we'd get something started
and make more money on the hour and shorter work hours. Back then, we were working from six o'clock till 12:00. I don't -- wasn't but two shifts. And they promised us we'd have shorter hours and more pay. But, uh, we never did -- I don't think enough people ever paid 'em to have anything much. They told a little joke about one thing. Said the -- the union bought up some fatback meat. And one fellow said he started home with his, he dropped it, and [I ain't run in the hole?] with it. (laughter) That's how low it was. 00:25:00(laughter) So the union -- union just went kerflop.GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.
EVELYN CLARY: [I might wipe off mine?] a bit. (laughter)
GEORGE STONEY: Uh, now, uh,
did you go to this big Labor Day parade over in...RUSSELL CLARY: Do what?
GEORGE STONEY: Did you go over to the big Labor Day parade in Gastonia?
RUSSELL CLARY: Oh yeah, I was -- I was up in front. Probably you might have some
pictures of it, with me up there in front of it.GEORGE STONEY: Well, we've
got some pictures of the parade. Maybe you could recognize yourself here. Let's see. This is one that says Ranlo Local.RUSSELL CLARY: Yeah. That's
it.GEORGE STONEY: Look at it and see if you could find yourself or anybody.
00:26:00(pause) See, it says... (pause)HELFAND: (clears throat) Can you turn that off?
RUSSELL CLARY: That looks kinda like it might be me right here.
EVELYN CLARY: What, the air conditioning?
GEORGE STONEY: Yeah. (break in audio)
GEORGE STONEY: Oh, right here?
RUSSELL CLARY: Yeah.
GEORGE STONEY: Now, were you
playing the drum?RUSSELL CLARY: Yeah, I played the drums. And then, uh, all
that -- another fellow played the drums too. And so I went marching in with the rest of 'em. And marched from there down to the Lineberger Park, where we all gathered together.GEORGE STONEY: Well, let me show you a picture of that
gathering at Lineberger Park. Uh, you see this? There are a whole lot of 00:27:00people there.RUSSELL CLARY: Yeah, they are.
EVELYN CLARY: That's you right
there, ain't it?RUSSELL CLARY: No, that ain't mine. (laughter)
EVELYN CLARY: It looks like you. (break in audio)
GEORGE STONEY: What happened at
Lineberger --EVELYN CLARY: And now broke it.
M3: No.
HELFAND: No. (laughter)
GEORGE STONEY: -- Lineberger Park?
RUSSELL CLARY: Well, we -- we'd go down
there and practice, and a lot of people would come down there just to hear us play and to practice. And then they'd invite us out, lot of time the different occasion to play for 'em. And it'd make up a little bit of money sometimes. And, uh, give us a dollar or two to -- I played the harmonica. And, uh, they liked to hear me play it. All of it. I played, uh, some sacred pieces, like "My God and I" that we'd use a lot over there at the church for specials. 00:28:00And, uh, (inaudible), whatever I could think of. Because I wanted to sing and -- and play.GEORGE STONEY: Now, did -- did you -- when you had union meetings,
would you play that?RUSSELL CLARY: Yeah. I played my harmonica for them. A
lot of time they'd make up and give me a quarter or two to buy me a new harmonica with. And, uh, I appreciated that. They -- they was really nice to us. I enjoyed playing with them.GEORGE STONEY: Do you know what happened to
the people who were members of the union?RUSSELL CLARY: Yeah, they went back to
work just a short while after that. And, uh, the union meetin', it just went kerwop, flop, and that was it. And, uh, people just -- they just returned back 00:29:00to their jobs. (coughs)GEORGE STONEY: Do you remember if any of them got fired?
RUSSELL CLARY: Yes, one or two of 'em acted up, you know. Showed theirself.
And, uh, the company fired 'em.GEORGE STONEY: What about -- what about Albert
Hinson?RUSSELL CLARY: Albert was one of them. He was one of them they fired.
On a-- it was mostly on account he acted up like he did. So [I?] called him to fire him.GEORGE STONEY: Now, did he have to leave the village?
RUSSELL CLARY: Yeah. Yeah. Mr. [Dillin'] was superintendent over then. And he give
him his walking papers.GEORGE STONEY: Mr. Dillin' gave him his walking papers.
RUSSELL CLARY: Yeah. That's the only one that I know of --
GEORGE STONEY: Uh-huh.
RUSSELL CLARY: -- that they fired.
00:30:00GEORGE STONEY: Was Mr. Dillin' a
pretty tough, uh, superintendent, uh...?EVELYN CLARY: Yeah.
RUSSELL CLARY: He
was if you didn't (laughter) go by his rules.EVELYN CLARY: I can vouch for
that.GEORGE STONEY: Want to come over here and sit down next to him?
EVELYN CLARY: He didn't even like you to -- he didn't even like you to walk across
the mill property.RUSSELL CLARY: If you [what?]?
EVELYN CLARY: He'd come out
and shake you by the shoulders. That's right!RUSSELL CLARY: Oh. (laughter)
GEORGE STONEY: He would do what?
RUSSELL CLARY: (inaudible) by his rules.
EVELYN CLARY: We was walking through there one day going to school --
RUSSELL CLARY: He was a good ol' fella.
EVELYN CLARY: -- and he come out and got me and this --
my friend -- by the shoulders, and said, "Don't y'all walk through here no more." Said, "This is mill property."M1: Tough man?
EVELYN CLARY: He
didn't like you to climb a tree. We still up and climbed trees, and he had John Strange to tell on us. He'd have him to watch us. And he'd tell on you if you climbed a tree. If you didn't go to church, he wouldn't hire you. You'd have to go to the Methodist church down there 'fore he would hire you to work. That's the truth. I remember that 'n'. I was in -- I 00:31:00was just a child, but I remember.GEORGE STONEY: We've -- we saw in a
complaint -- you see, we've got all these papers from Washington, where people complained about Mr. [Dilling?], and they said that he would cause people to pledge money to that church, and then he would take it out of their pay.RUSSELL CLARY: Mm-hmm.
EVELYN CLARY: Right. That's right.
RUSSELL CLARY: Yeah, he did
that.EVELYN CLARY: We'd go by there with our report cards and -- and
everything. We liked him for that. Because he'd give us a dime or a quarter if we had As. And, uh, if you didn't have As, you know, you might get a nickel or sumpin'. But you didn't get much if you didn't have a whole lot of As. And [his were?] tough. My daddy could really tell you about him if he was here.GEORGE STONEY: What was he tough about?
EVELYN CLARY: He was tough
about everything. He didn't want you to touch nothin'. Didn't want you to climb a tree or nothin' else.GEORGE STONEY: What about drinking?
EVELYN CLARY: No drinking, no s-- I don't -- guess he allowed you to smoke.
00:32:00RUSSELL CLARY: Yeah, that -- that's something he really was rough on. He'd fire you
if he found out -- found out you were drinking or anything. You'd lose your job.GEORGE STONEY: How did you feel about that?
RUSSELL CLARY: Well, I think it
was everybody's own privilege to do like they wanted to do. And, uh, [was?] just like you or anybody else. What you's gonna do, you's gonna do it anyway. And it wasn't no use slipping and sliding around and, uh -- and trying to do it behind somebody's back. That makes you worse. It don't help matters a bit.GEORGE STONEY: Mm-hmm.
RUSSELL CLARY: It just make -- causes
more confusion.GEORGE STONEY: Mm-hmm.
RUSSELL CLARY: That -- that's what I
think about it.GEORGE STONEY: Do you think that Mr. Dilling had anything to do
with people trying to join the union?RUSSELL CLARY: Yeah, I think so. Because
00:33:00it -- like I said, he's trying to force people to do things they didn't want to. And [later?] they were just not gonna do it. And they didn't. But if he found out about it, you was gone. That was it.GEORGE STONEY: OK. Now, we're
gonna be showing you some -- some pictures of that Labor Day parade in Gastonia. We were talking with, uh, uh, a gentleman yesterday, Mr. Moore, who found his father in that parade. (laughs) Maybe you'll recognize some of the people in it as well.RUSSELL CLARY: Oh.
CREW MEMBER: OK. I just need you to do these
pictures again --GEORGE STONEY: OK.
CREW MEMBER: -- 'cause I didn't get a
clear look.GEORGE STONEY: OK. Uh, now this is what happened in -- the back of
the -- of the picture here, it says "Municipal Park." But you says it was 00:34:00Lineberger Park.RUSSELL CLARY: Mm-hmm.
EVELYN CLARY: Did they call it that back
then, reckon?M3: They might have.
GEORGE STONEY: OK. Now, uh, do you see
anybody you know there? (pause)RUSSELL CLARY: That looks kind of like Kelly
Carter, don't it?EVELYN CLARY: Kelly McCarter, you mean?
RUSSELL CLARY: Yeah,
Kelly McCarter.GEORGE STONEY: You see, uh, signs from all of these Locals.
RUSSELL CLARY: Yeah.
GEORGE STONEY: Do you remember how you made your signs?
RUSSELL CLARY: Uh, they got somebody to print 'em up for 'em.
EVELYN CLARY: (laughs) That one there is really a holler.
GEORGE STONEY: (laughs) What
about this?EVELYN CLARY: There you are, Russell.
RUSSELL CLARY: I know.
That's what I said. (laughter)EVELYN CLARY: You was young back then, wasn't
you?RUSSELL CLARY: Yeah.
GEORGE STONEY: And good-looking. (laughter)
00:35:00RUSSELL CLARY: That looks like [Elzina Collette?] there.
EVELYN CLARY: It does, don't
it?RUSSELL CLARY: I believe it is.
EVELYN CLARY: Yeah, she...
GEORGE STONEY: So
what surprises me is with a supervisor like Mr. Dilling, you had the courage to go in the parade and go to this park when you knew that he was against the union.RUSSELL CLARY: Mm-hmm. But, uh, like I said is the union promised us
shorter hours and, uh, a cut rate and a program of joining the union, and, uh, 00:36:00it -- it wasn't very long after that until the -- the eight-hour work law come in. And, uh, we got a -- we was gonna get a cut rate in joining the union. But, uh, I never did have the money. And I don't think many other people had the money to even pay the cut-rate price. So the union, it just backfired, and we-- and went to flop. And that was about it.GEORGE STONEY: Mm-hmm.
EVELYN CLARY: Mr. Dillin' probably couldn't do nothin' with all them many people.
That's why he didn't do nothin'. (laughter) He couldn't do nothin' with 'em. He wouldn't've had nobody to work for him.GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.
EVELYN CLARY: That's probably why he didn't do nothin' with 'em.
GEORGE STONEY: Well, they really poured that -- what we're trying to figure out is
how, with all of this, uh, being afraid to join the union, so many people had the courage to co-- to join and come out.RUSSELL CLARY: Mm-hmm.
GEORGE STONEY: Now, we know that, uh, when the Blue Eagle -- you remember the Blue
Eagle?RUSSELL CLARY: Mm-hmm.
GEORGE STONEY: NRA. When Roosevelt got elected,
00:37:00shortly afterwards something called the cotton-textile code came in, and they fixed -- they limited the hours you could work. They cut it down to eight. And they made a minimum wage of $11 a week --RUSSELL CLARY: Mm-hmm.
GEORGE STONEY: -- for 40 hours. And they eliminated child labor.
RUSSELL CLARY: Mm-hmm.
GEORGE STONEY: And they said you had a right to join a union.
RUSSELL CLARY: Mm-hmm.
GEORGE STONEY: And so, all over the south, people signed
up.RUSSELL CLARY: Mm-hmm.
EVELYN CLARY: Is that when Social Security started
too?GEORGE STONEY: Social Security started a couple of years later.
EVELYN CLARY: That's what I thought.
GEORGE STONEY: But what happened was that as
soon as these people formed unions, they started firing the -- the officials.RUSSELL CLARY: Mm-hmm.
GEORGE STONEY: And people got frustrated, because
they'd fire their -- their president and vice-president and secretary, and they'd get another one, they'd fire them. So finally, that's what the big 00:38:00strike ca-- happened.RUSSELL CLARY: Mm-hmm.
GEORGE STONEY: We were with, uh,
Mr. Moore and some other people yesterday, and we found that in the Gr-- at the Grove, the president got fired. This -- the vice-president got fired. And the secretary was out of work for 11 months.RUSSELL CLARY: Mm-hmm.
GEORGE STONEY: The president actually had to move off the village. So that's the way
they treated them. This is why we just wondering, knowing that kind of thing, how you people had the guts to join.RUSSELL CLARY: Mm-hmm. Well, it was just
-- like I said, we were doing it for the cut rate and the price we'd have to pay for the union, and it didn't work out. So it did finally come to 00:39:00eight-hour law, and the union just folded up. Kaploot. And that -- that was it.GEORGE STONEY: Mm-hmm.
EVELYN CLARY: Just took a --
RUSSELL CLARY: That
was...EVELYN CLARY: -- hired hand to [join it?], that's all.
RUSSELL CLARY: Yeah. (laughter)
GEORGE STONEY: What about the -- what -- we hear a lot
about stretch-out. What do you think they meant?RUSSELL CLARY: The what?
GEORGE STONEY: The stretch-out.
RUSSELL CLARY: Stretch-out system? Well, people
wouldn't stand up for that either. They do what they wanted to do. And that's all you could get 'em to do. If they agreed to a -- to a little bit of extra stuff on the job, that was up to them. And, uh, the union, like I said too, caused that -- 'cause, uh, when somebody took extra workload on 'em, that made it hard on everybody. And, uh, that didn't set too well with 00:40:00nobody. So it just -- that's where it ended at. People just -- they neg-- negotiated on their own accord. And, uh, that ended the whole thing about the union. I think that's what really broke it up.GEORGE STONEY: Do you remember
a fellow named Six-Hour Red?RUSSELL CLARY: Six-Hour Red.
GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.
Red Lisk. He was one of the organizers.RUSSELL CLARY: [Yeah, uh?], I remember
some of it. Not much. Because other spotlights was, uh -- I think the union in the mills -- Six-Hour Red wasn't -- [the other?] wasn't, uh, talk -- talked about near as much as the other stuff was.GEORGE STONEY: Mm-hmm.
HELFAND: What
about Thomas, George? 00:41:00GEORGE STONEY: Yes. Did you know an organizer named
Thomas? Did you know an organizer named Thomas?RUSSELL CLARY: Thomas. No, I
didn't really know him. I've heard of him. That was it.GEORGE STONEY: OK.
Let's look at -- let me show you some of this footage.HELFAND: Before we do
that --GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.
HELFAND: -- do you think he could describe how they
came into that park, if he remembers?GEORGE STONEY: Uh-huh.
HELFAND: I just...
GEORGE STONEY: When you went down -- when you were in that parade -- could you
tell us about going into this -- the Lineberger Park?RUSSELL CLARY: Well,
we'd -- like I said, we'd go down there and practice the band. And a lot of people'd come down there to hear us play. And, uh, we enjoyed playing for 'em because, naturally, you -- you want somebody but -- around besides the one that's playing in the band. You enjoy the crowd. You enjoy playing together too. All in one day.EVELYN CLARY: How'd y'all get there?
RUSSELL CLARY: Walked.
EVELYN CLARY: Oh.
00:42:00GEORGE STONEY: How far is that from here?
EVELYN CLARY: It's about four or five miles, I think.
RUSSELL CLARY: About
five or six miles. But a lot of time people had cars come 'round and pick us up and take us there and bring us back.GEORGE STONEY: OK. Let's look at this
-- this footage. OK. Where's my -- (break in audio)GEORGE STONEY: That's...
HELFAND: Go forward.
GEORGE STONEY: Yeah. OK. (laughter)
HELFAND: You know, George, since we're here, should we do it?
GEORGE STONEY: Mm-hmm.
EVELYN CLARY: Does -- it don't have the sound, does it?
GEORGE STONEY: Yeah, we do.
EVELYN CLARY: Oh.
GEORGE STONEY: We'll go back on that in
00:43:00a few minutes. (pause) (laughter) OK. This is [it, huh?]. Just let me go back. Is this -- this is it, isn't it, Judy?HELFAND: I believe so. Yeah, you
might want to turn the volume up.GEORGE STONEY: OK. Let me make sure.
(newsreel: music) OK.EVELYN CLARY: Here comes the band.
HELFAND: George, you
might want to, uh, introduce it.GEORGE STONEY: OK. What we're going to be
looking at now is some scenes from the Labor Day parade, the first Labor Day, in 00:44:00September 1934. Now, this is just pretty raw footage that was taken at the time. It comes out of the archives from University of South Carolina. See if 00:45:00you know somebody here. (newsreel: music; people singing) (laughter) "I Shall Not Be Moved."EVELYN CLARY: Yeah.
RUSSELL CLARY: Mm-hmm.
GEORGE STONEY: Now
in this you can hear the drums. You may hear yourself.EVELYN CLARY: Could you
hear that? Did you hear them drums beatin'?RUSSELL CLARY: No, I don't hear
'em.HELFAND: Let's rewind it. (newsreel: newscaster describing scene)
GEORGE STONEY: Now this is the way it was actually run in the newsreels.
00:46:00(newsreel: people shouting; newscaster continuing to describe scene) Now this next man is -- this is Albert Hinson.EVELYN CLARY: There he is.
RUSSELL CLARY: Yeah, there he is. (newsreel: protester giving speech; people cheering;
newscaster continuing to describe scene)GEORGE STONEY: So that's the way it
was shown in the -- in the theaters around here.RUSSELL CLARY: Mm-hmm.
EVELYN CLARY: I'm'a turn it up a little bit.
GEORGE STONEY: OK. We'll -- we'll
run it again and turn it up so you can hear it.EVELYN CLARY: [He want to?] hear
that drum.GEORGE STONEY: Yeah. OK.
EVELYN CLARY: Might have it up too loud.
GEORGE STONEY: Yeah. We'll go back on it, then.
HELFAND: So -- so -- so
Russell's group, Russell was the drum -- led the group from Ranlo into Gastonia on that day?EVELYN CLARY: I guess. (laughs) That's what he's
saying. (newsreel: music) You hear it? 00:47:00RUSSELL CLARY: No. (newsreel: music)
There's me playing the drum.EVELYN CLARY: OK. You gonna see yourself in a
minute. (newsreel: people singing) That's you. That's you beating the 00:48:00drum. (newsreel: newscaster describing scene)GEORGE STONEY: This is over at
Parkdale. 00:49:00RUSSELL CLARY: Mm-hmm. (newsreel: newscaster continuing to describe
scene; protester giving speech; people cheering; newscaster continuing to describe scene)EVELYN CLARY: I didn't know they had all that. (newsreel:
newscaster describing scene) No wonder I'm so mean. I was born in the war. (laughter)GEORGE STONEY: Does that bring any -- back any memories to you?
RUSSELL CLARY: Yeah. Remind me of the -- remind me of the strike a whole lot.
And, uh, things that were done. Things that were promised. And, uh -- about us getting short hours, more pay a hour. They didn't come till later on, though. 00:50:00All they did -- get a hike in pay in when we got paid, which wasn't -- wasn't much. And it wasn't very often.EVELYN CLARY: About 50 cent a week.
(laughter) Or'd you get a dollar?RUSSELL CLARY: I forget how much, honey, but
it wasn't much.GEORGE STONEY: Do you think that your health problems have
anything to do with the fact that you worked in the mills?RUSSELL CLARY: Yeah,
it had a whole lot to do working where the cotton dust was. And back in the [roller-top?] was chemicals. It had -- it had a lot of everything to do with my health problem today.GEORGE STONEY: Have you been able to get any compensation
for that? 00:51:00RUSSELL CLARY: None except, uh, Medicare and my own insurance that I
pay for.EVELYN CLARY: Yes, you did. You got something from brown lung.
RUSSELL CLARY: What?
EVELYN CLARY: You got something from brown lung.
RUSSELL CLARY: Well...
EVELYN CLARY: The lawyer come here and -- and you went to...
RUSSELL CLARY: Wasn't that through Medicare too?
EVELYN CLARY: He could've
got more if -- if he'd'a told them, you know. But they settled it out of court. So he bought me a car with it. I still got it. (laughs)GEORGE STONEY: Well, now, we know that that brown lung thing came about because a lot
of people organized. Union people and others organized to get that brown lung, and it took 'em a long, long time.EVELYN CLARY: They still have meetings, I
think. He never did go to the meetings.GEORGE STONEY: But that was a good
example of what organization can do, is it?EVELYN CLARY: Right.
GEORGE STONEY: Did you ever go to those meetings? Brown lung meetings?
RUSSELL CLARY: No, I never did go.
00:52:00GEORGE STONEY: What about you, Mrs.?
EVELYN CLARY: No.
GEORGE STONEY: You...
EVELYN CLARY: I didn't have no reason to go.
Except for him. But I didn't even think about me going.GEORGE STONEY: Were
you aware that that -- that the compensation was a result of a long effort to organize?EVELYN CLARY: Right. I'm sure it was. Paul Brown, over at Smyre,
he goes to 'em, I think, or used to. Didn't Paul used to go?RUSSELL CLARY: I think so.
GEORGE STONEY: Is Paul still living?
EVELYN CLARY: Yes. And
he's got brown lung too. He lives on Second Street, Smyre. You know --GEORGE STONEY: So...
EVELYN CLARY: -- where y'all went the other day, on
Second Street? On down?GEORGE STONEY: So we should go to talk to him, I'd
think, as well.EVELYN CLARY: I'd suspect you'd never get away. (laughter)
Ain't never seen a man could talk that much.RUSSELL CLARY: He's an
(inaudible). He's (inaudible).GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.
EVELYN CLARY: He's, uh
-- he's older than you. He's in his eighties.RUSSELL CLARY: Yeah.
EVELYN CLARY: He had open-heart surgery --
GEORGE STONEY: Mm-hmm.
EVELYN CLARY: -- not
long ago. But he's -- he had a hard time, but he's doing a lot better.GEORGE STONEY: So he's a good person for us to talk with.
EVELYN CLARY: Yeah.
00:53:00GEORGE STONEY: OK. In a few minutes we may a-- you know him?
EVELYN CLARY: Yeah.
GEORGE STONEY: We may ask you to call him up and introduce us.
EVELYN CLARY: All right.
GEORGE STONEY: OK. Uh, sir, what we're gonna do now
is I'm gonna show you some -- some material we have with Albert Hinson talking, and see if this brings back any memories.RUSSELL CLARY: OK.
GEORGE STONEY: OK? I've got to run it back till I can find it. So I'll have to
back up.RUSSELL CLARY: Turn it up.
GEORGE STONEY: No, uh, I'm just gonna back
up to -- to find it, and then we'll turn it up. 00:54:00(sound of newsreel running)EVELYN CLARY: Yeah, I bet you Paul knows sumpin' about that.
GEORGE STONEY: Yeah, he --
RUSSELL CLARY: Yeah, Paul knows sumpin' about it.
GEORGE STONEY: -- sounds like a good man for us to talk with.
HELFAND: Actually, I was
told last night that Paul was probably a member of the union.EVELYN CLARY: He
probably was. He's something else. If you leave, you have to leave him talking. (laughs)RUSSELL CLARY: There he is.
GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.
EVELYN CLARY: He had to be a rough 'n to get into all that, didn't he?
GEORGE STONEY: He sure did.
EVELYN CLARY: Oh.
GEORGE STONEY: OK. We gonna be just --
OK. Now here's -- we're gonna hear him. 00:55:00(newsreel: people cheering)M1: That's [him?].
EVELYN CLARY: That's probably piano --
that's where Igot that piano there. 00:56:00(newsreel: protester giving speech; people cheering) (laughter) 00:57:00(newsreel: protester continuing speech; people cheering)
EVELYN CLARY: There's a few old cars.
GEORGE STONEY: You recognize these scenes?
RUSSELL CLARY: Yup.
EVELYN CLARY: (inaudible)
GEORGE STONEY: That's --
that's Parkdale, I think.RUSSELL CLARY: Yeah, that's Parkdale. That was
the entrance.EVELYN CLARY: They closed it down, didn't they? Didn't they
close Parkdale down, not long ago?RUSSELL CLARY: Yeah, they all -- they all
00:58:00stopped (inaudible) [few days?].EVELYN CLARY: And so now they've closed
Firestone out.GEORGE STONEY: Did you go over to Parkdale?
RUSSELL CLARY: Yeah.
I was up there.GEORGE STONEY: When?
RUSSELL CLARY: I was playing the drums, in
the band. Marched on down there into the Lineberger Park. Played a little while down there. You know, I got that other [one?] to play some.EVELYN CLARY: What was the name of that park? What'd you all call it?
RUSSELL CLARY: Lineberger Park.
EVELYN CLARY: I know, but what...
GEORGE STONEY: Municipal Park, they called it.
EVELYN CLARY: Municipal.
GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.
EVELYN CLARY: I'm gonna ask [Miss Keller?]. They live down
there.HELFAND: He might see himself there, if they're marching.
GEORGE STONEY: Yeah. You see the people marching there?
RUSSELL CLARY: Yeah.
EVELYN CLARY: Ain't that you, Russell? (newsreel: people cheering) That little
feller there, is that you? (newsreel: people cheering)GEORGE STONEY: Let's go
back on that just a moment, and we'll see.CREW MEMBER: Let me do a quick
reload.GEORGE STONEY: OK, back you up?
(static)