Rose Slayton and Dr. Elliot White Interviews

JUDITH HELFAND: Rose, could you look at us and d--

ROSE SLAYTON: No.

HELFAND: No, no, no. Just look at us. You don't have to say anything. Just 00:01:00-- just rock back and forth gently and just look towards us. Just rock gently. In the swing. Just a little bit back and forth. Yeah. Just like right --

SLAYTON: Is that OK?

HELFAND: That's great.

GEORGE STONEY: Jamie?

JAMIE: Yeah?

STONEY: Remember the mailbox.

JAMIE: Yup. One second. [zipping sound]

STONEY: Judy?

JAMIE: (inaudible)

STONEY: I want to get a picture of you and Rose right there.

JAMIE: I think you can shut it down and just go -- (break in audio) [00:01:40 - 00:06:15]

[silence; camera pans across neighborhood in front of house ending with Rose Slayton and Judith Helfand on porch]

[silence; shots of various mailboxes and laundry hanging across from house]

[silence; young girl walks up to the house; shot of girl, Rose Slayton, and George Stoney; shot of laundry hanging across from house]

[silence; continued shot of laundry]

[silence; continued shot of laundry; break in video]

STONEY: I g-- I had to move out.

DR. ELLIOT WHITE: Well we were at the museum of art in Chicago, last week. [vehicle sounds] And ah, we saw some pictures (inaudible) not crazy about. I like the traditional much better.

STONEY: Yeah. And the long -- they -- those long overhangs on the Guggenheim Museum, [vehicle sounds] to me, is an affront to -- to Fifth Avenue. (laughter) I mean, to-to-- you know, that big --

WHITE: Yeah, uh-huh. I know.

STONEY: You see the [alls?] and then, suddenly, it's there.

WHITE: Yeah.

STONEY: Inside, it -- sure, inside it's wonderful.

WHITE: I like the Metropolitan better.

STONEY: I do too.

WHITE: We took our daughter to, on her (inaudible) Museum of Modern Art, they had an exhibition on Max Ernst. 00:07:00And of course he was quite surrealistic.

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

WHITE: And they also had while we were there, the one I love is Hide and Seek. You know the picture?

STONEY: I don't know that.

WHITE: Oh, the flaming sunset --

STONEY: Uh-huh.

WHITE: -- and the (inaudible) made up of little fetuses?

STONEY: Uh-huh. (laughter) Oh, I hadn't seen that. Just a moment, let me --

JAMIE: Stay there. That's a good spot.

STONEY: OK. Right.

JAMIE: OK?

STONEY: Jamie? Uh. Just call -- just say move and then we'll go on in.

JAMIE: OK.

WHITE: OK. You sort of --

STONEY: We have -- we're back --

WHITE: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)

STONEY: OK, we're back here. All right. No. Uh. Why-why don't you get on this side of me.

WHITE: All right.

STONEY: And we'll just be talking because, uh, even-- even though she's recording a little of what I'm saying, you see, I've got a radio mic on --

WHITE: Oh, yes.

STONEY: -- I know the noise back here is going to make it almost unusable so it'll be used with voiceover --

STONEY: OK.

STONEY: -- with some of the --

HELFAND: I hear you fine now.

STONEY: OK? OK. But do you hear him?

HELFAND: [Can you get close enough?]?

STONEY: This is my -- this is my voice test. Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, 00:08:00Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth. Can you hear me all right?

HELFAND: [I can hear you?].

STONEY: OK. (laughter) Uh.

HELFAND: (inaudible)

STONEY: OK. Let's -- we go on in now.

WHITE: All right.

STONEY: Tell me about the house.

WHITE: Well, this house was built in 1873 by my great-grandfather for one of his daughters. Uh, he built three houses. The other one is right up the street here --

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

WHITE: -- for Aunt Mary, and then Aunt Fanny next door, and this for my grandmother Emma and her husband. He wanted to keep his daughters near him so he, um, built each of them a house on that South Main Street and gave each of their husbands --

STONEY: (laughter)

WHITE: -- a cotton mill to run.

STONEY: (laughter)

WHITE: And, uh, uh, my grandfather and grandmother married in 1871. This house was completed in 1873.

STONEY: Just go on in.

WHITE: This is, uh, of course, the front hall --

STONEY: Uh-huh.

WHITE: -- where we had beautiful, beautiful dances. You see, the house was perfect for entertaining.

STONEY: Yeah. OK. All right, now I think we've got that. I want to see if -- how it works.

WHITE: OK.

STONEY: We may have to do one more take on this. (clears throat) (break in audio)

JAMIE: We're set now?

STONEY: Yeah.

JAMIE: OK.

WHITE: Well my great-grandfather, [Edwin Michael Holt?], had 10 children: seven sons and three daughters. He loved his daughters and wanted them to stay in Alamance County. He built each of them -- when they married -- a house along here. Aunt Mary's the first house, there, which is still standing; Aunt Fanny's next; and then my mo-- grandmother, Emma, here. He also gave each of his sons-in-law a cotton mill to run, which was an offer they could not refuse.

STONEY: (laughter)

WHITE: And so they all stayed here. This was the house where my father and all of his, uh, brothers and si-- and his sister were born, and this is the house 00:10:00where I was raised, from the time I was six weeks old until I went off to school and got married. The, uh, house was built in 1873 and my grandparents married 1871. And this is, uh, a little bit less severe in style than some of the others. The others were more truly, Victorian. This is more like Queen Anne Revival, which I like. I like the symmetry and I like the, uh, plainness of the outside better than all the extra things that some of the Victorian things had.

STONEY: Yes. Uh-huh.

WHITE: But it's a livable house and fine for entertaining. And we had some glorious times here. Thank you.

STONEY: (inaudible) Oh yes, that's crazy. (inaudible) Funny -- (break in audio)

JAMIE: OK. Action. Action.

STONEY: OK.

WHITE: This is the entrance hall, and the parlor and the living room. As you can see, this is a place to have all sorts of parties. We had church socials, dances, wedding parties, receptions, and even two weddings were held here. Uh, we would roll up the--the rugs and put a record on the record player and really cut a rug --

STONEY: (laughter)

WHITE: -- as they used to say. So, uh. Well the Christmas tree would be over 00:12:00here, in front of the bay window.

STONEY: Yeah.

WHITE: Of course, this room here is where we did most of our living - the papa bear chair, and my mother's work desk, and my father used to read to me over in that corner. But, uh, this is where we had more fun. The piano was right here. And we would have electric train races on the floor. And it was just a mighty nice place.

STONEY: How was it -- the house -- heated?

WHITE: The house was heated, originally, by fireplaces in each room, as you can see. And -- when my father lived here by himself, in the early 1900s, he had central heating, uh, installed. He used a vapor system under reduced pressure; it was very effective. It was coal-fired and later, in about 1930, he put in an iron fireman, which was an automatic stoker. It was controlled by a thermostat on the wall, over there, and it would start the machine, stoking the fuel oil, like, when the temperature got down. It was very efficient. And, uh, it used a 00:13:00lot of a coal, though, to heat this big house.

STONEY: (laughter) I bet. OK. (break in audio)

WHITE: Oh, all right. The molding up there was originally in the house when it was first built and it has not been altered in any way except for changing light fixtures, and it's been plugged up since the light fixture was taken out, uh, there, in almost every room of the house. And it must be seven or eight of them around. And --

STONEY: I see one right here.

WHITE: Here's one in the -- in the entrance hall.

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

WHITE: And then, uh, each one is different, there. Uh, I don't believe any two of them are exactly alike. There's another in the living room. And this fireplace has always been my favorite. It, uh, is, I think, a beautiful, artistic work. It -- we used coal in this fireplace and used, uh, wood in the other one. But this was the par-- this was the living room, where we did most 00:14:00of our living, and my father's chair was right over here, where he used to read to me as I'd crawl around on the floor and over the top of it. And my mother's work desk was over here. Now, this, uh, door here opens into the, uh, sitting -- I mean, the dressing room and what -- and bedroom, both. This was originally a bedroom but, uh, it was made into a dressing room and sewing room after the, uh, extra room was built on for my great-grandmother when she moved in, back in 1884. But, uh, my mother used this as a bedroom and I stayed in the other room. (laughter) I've used every bedroom in the house.

STONEY: (laughter) How many brothers and sisters did you have?

WHITE: I had none. I was the only child. My mother was 39 when I was born; my father was 45. She thought I was the menopause.

STONEY: (laughter)

WHITE: I think I -- I did not disappoint her.

JAMIE: Everybody, hold it one -- (break in audio)

WHITE: Ye--yeah, [Edwin Holt?] --

HELFAND: (inaudible).

WHITE: Wanted to have the finest things for his daughter so they would stay around. He didn't want Emma moving back to Fort Mill, South Carolina with her 00:15:00husband, where he -- where he was from. And now --

STONEY: What did you do then? Uh. You said that he wanted to, uh, uh, tell us that, uh, he built all these houses --

WHITE: Yes.

STONEY: -- for his daughters.

WHITE: He did. All of them for the daughters. And --

STONEY: Sorry, we--we--we--

WHITE: -- it--it worked.

STONEY: -- didn't get that bit. So just start off by saying, "My grandfather" --

WHITE: OK.

STONEY: -- "had how many daughters and then he built how many houses for them."

WHITE: Well, my -- well, my great-grandfather had three daughters and seven sons, one of whom became governor of the state. And his three daughters married people not from this particular area. So in order to keep them there, he built each one a house along here. This one, the one in -- next door, by the municipal building, is for Aunt Fanny. And Aunt Mary's, up next to the, uh, square. And he also gave them -- the sons -- his son-in-laws a cotton mill to 00:16:00run, uh, as an offer you can't refuse. As a godfather. (laughter) But he tried to do everything nicely to try to keep them here. And I think this, uh, uh, fireplace, uh, mantle here is one of the things. And the molding, which was, I guess, considered quite good for the day, and I think it still does look beautiful.

STONEY: Do you have any idea who built this? The craftsman?

WHITE: I do not know. I do not know. They -- it was probably local people with imported artisans, maybe, to do the fireplace, the marble work, and that sort of thing. I think this is imported; this looks like Dutch tile and Italian marble on the -- in the fireplace. But I think the house was built with local construction folks. Uh, [Em?] Holt knew everybody, knew who did good work and who didn't, so I guess that was the reason.

STONEY: How many servants did you have here?

WHITE: Uh, when we were living here, we had a cook and we had [Hosey?] who was a jack-of-all-trade and who became my father after my father died. And he was responsible for my teen-- early teenage years. He would take good care of me and administer a little of, uh, instructions on the behind parts from time to time. (laughter) But he was a wonderful man.

STONEY: And they were both black, were they?

WHITE: Uh, he was. Now, Aunt Emily was half Cherokee and half black. And, uh, she lived in a little house out in the back and was a marvelous cook: buckwheat cakes and, uh, oh, she could fix rolls, and the best cooking you ever saw in your life. She always used the coal stove, woodstove, but never -- never touched the electric stove. (laughter) It was just too much of a contraption for her. And this goes into the back hall, which is where we used to spend 00:18:00Sunday nights. The radio was here. (laughter) And the telephone was here (laughter) where you could hear it all over the house. And we'd sit on the steps, and eat toasted cheese sandwiches, and listen to, uh, Eddie Cantor and Phil Harris, and, uh, Jack Benny, and the [Fish Bandwagon?]. And late at night -- 10 o'clock -- uh, we'd hear Will Rogers.

STONEY: What a wonderful bannister to slide down. (laughter)

WHITE: Oh, it was. And I slid down on it many, many a time. You had to be careful and not bust your bottom on the newel post, here. But we would -- we would, uh, sort of grease it up with a little wax paper (laughter) and slide.

STONEY: We had, uh, bannisters that kind of curved -- but it was almost like that -- in my old house, in Salem. I remember that. That was the one thing that uh, uh, neighborhood, uh, kids would envy us.

WHITE: Oh. Oh, yes. It's a wonder that newel post didn't get knocked down, it'd been hit so many times. (laughter) And we had a spinning wheel and a grandfather clock that didn't work, up on the landing. And, uh, this was just 00:19:00a cubby hole here where we kept our rain gear. And this was the dining room. We had a corner cubby in the cro-- in the corner, there. The, uh, furniture that we have in our dining room in Charlotte is orig-- the -- originally the furniture from here -- everything. Except the cornices. Well, I believe the cornices were in here, too. But, uh, there's a great big table, and there was a -- there was a, uh, bell under the bottom that you'd step your foot on to, uh, to ring in the kitchen, so then if you wanted the cook to come in and bring some new food, there it was. And the butler's pantry's here. Now, the kitchen itself has been remodeled several times and is probably the least authentic --

STONEY: Hmm.

WHITE: -- of any of the rooms because it's necessary. Uh, my daddy tried out some winemaking in the closet in here. It turned into vinegar. (laughter) It looked mighty pretty. We put it in a decanter. And then, when some of the people would come in to do some, like, housework and so on, they'd come and 00:20:00take a sip of it. And boy, the expression on their faces. Uh! (laughter)

STONEY: Jamie.

JAMIE: Yes?

STONEY: We're going out the front door.

JAMIE: OK.

STONEY: These windows are so beautiful.

WHITE: They are.

STONEY: Yeah.

WHITE: They are.

STONEY: Just lovely. Now here, I notice there's not even a f-- eh, a sidewalk out there.

WHITE: No. Now, there was a sidewalk when I lived here. The sidewalk was about -- well, actually, the sidewalk would be out in the street now.

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

WHITE: And there was a bank that went down about as high as this -- maybe a four-, five-- four-foot bank that went down.

STONEY: (clears throat)

WHITE: And there was a curb. But then there was dirt between the curb and a two-lane road here. And I guess when they widened it they tore the sidewalk down and have not replaced it yet. Uh, they really not much -- that much of a 00:21:00reason to. But, uh, we, uh, -- I used to slide on, oh, -- on a sled, on the sidewalk when it -- when it got, uh, cold, [if I could take water?] and pour on it and freeze it, and then slide. Nobody fell on it, thank goodness.

STONEY: Yeah. We're going around the house.

WHITE: All right.

STONEY: Familiar sound, the crunch of the magnolia leaves.

WHITE: Yes, this is magnolia. Of course they -- it used to come down to the ground --

STONEY: Yeah.

WHITE: -- but now it's up higher.

STONEY: Yeah.

WHITE: And we rake them and rake them and rake them and rake them and rake them. Used to be a Lily of the Valley right here, and a big maple tree here. This was a porch. I us-- this was my room and we used to use this porch as a "ship" and go sailing to King Kong's island, which was a rock garden. And we'd play for years with that same storyline. And, uh, and this was sort of a 00:22:00gathering place for the neighborhood children. There were dozens of them in the neighborhood. But we'd have outdoor ice cream. Everybody would bring something and the ones who didn't bring anything would have to turn the -- the, uh, crank.

STONEY: (laughter)

WHITE: And we'd draw lots for who would get the [dash?]. (laughter) And the garden was out here. These next two houses and the garden, which later became our football field. And the old schoolhouse was out here, where the, uh, White and Williamson children were educated. There was no public education at that time. And, uh, then the garage and the woodhouse were over there. And we had a big back porch, which has been taken in and made into the den, here.

STONEY: Well now, where did you go to school?

WHITE: I went to school at Graham School. And I'll show you that later.

STONEY: OK.

WHITE: One school for the whole town, except for the black kids who went down to [Needmore?], which is down that way, maybe half a mile. But we all went to the same school, all, uh, stayed in the same building from first grade through high school. And it wasn't too bad. It was nice. You knew everybody.

STONEY: Yeah. You want to tell us about the little house here?

WHITE: All right. This is the -- this is what I call [Arnie's?] house. When I was a toddler I couldn't say Aunt Emily, who was my nurse and our cook and, uh, more or less stayed with us until she got so old she retired. And she lived here. And it's a house that's heated with a stove and it has a bathroom in it and the little front porch. And that front porch she used to entertain her visitors, uh, [on at?] nighttime or, you know, on the weekend, or whenever she was off.

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

WHITE: And she used to -- she used to wring the chickens right out here. There was a well about right where we're standing, but it was covered over back 00:24:00because we got plumbing after the plumbing was -- were established. But the water for the house came from this well, originally. And she'd wring the chicken's neck and we'd have him for -- for Sunday lunch. She never taught me how to wring a chicken's neck very well.

STONEY: (clears throat) (laughter) What about your cars?

WHITE: All right. The garage was out there. Uh, well, see this maple tree? Go straight to the left from that, that's where the garage was. There was a circular drive around that, came back around here. Uh, my dad was a car fancier. He, uh, had -- used to have a Stevens-Duryea called Big Six that he'd go roaring around in. Uh, when -- during my lifetime he had a '21 or '22 Packard and then ended up with a '29 Cadillac and a '34 -- '35 Chevrolet. And then we'd -- after his death, we traded those in and got an old Packard 120, which was a lovely car (inaudible).

STONEY: Well, when-- when you first wrote me (clears throat) you said that you 00:25:00used to ride around with your father. Was that, uh...?

WHITE: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Uh, well, he wo-- he had an old, uh, Packard open car with Isinglass windows and -- a 1921 model -- and he used to use that to drive to, uh, to work. And he would come home for lunch and park right here and take a nap. And he'd take a nap of about 30 minutes or so, or an hour, and went out -- I figured it was time to get up, a lot of times I'd go get -- climb in the car and hide right behind the seat and not, uh, get -- not get out until after he'd already gotten back to the office. (laughter) And I'd come -- he'd go in and I'd get up and walk in. And he'd see me and pick up the phone and call, "Adelaide, he's with me. He's OK." (laughter) But we'd, uh, -- he'd take me around with him, making rounds of the mill, and get an ice cream, uh, uh, Eskimo pie, and, uh, I adored my father.

STONEY: We got a good shot of the house, did we?

JAMIE: Mm-hmm.

WHITE: This is the only outhouse that's left. There was a greenhouse right there, uh, well, almost to that birdbath -- not quite. And then the schoolhouse, and the gas house, the chicken coop, and the dog yard, and the pear orchard, and the garden, which we used as a football field, and then this garage, and the woodhouse, and stor-- and coalhouse -- one on one side of the house and one on the other. Then there were two barns. And they placed [like where?] they kept the horses in horse and buggy times. And then there were two, uh, tenant houses back on Maple Street. And, uh, one of them used to raise gamecocks; they lived right back here -- the [Longises?]. And Sunday afternoon, they'd have cockfights. And I remember very well going and seeing the cockfights, which, of course, were illegal, but, uh, they had them anyhow. (laughter)

STONEY: Do you -- how do you feel about seeing this house in this condition now?

WHITE: Uh, I hate to see it. On the inside, it's not too bad. On the outside, it looks terrible. The historical society is trying to arrange a, uh, renovation, and they've got studies going, they've got a grant for studying it, they want to move some of the, uh, committees into the place and maybe have it as a place where you have social events, like a, uh, wedding reception or, like a, uh, uh, civic club meetinghouse and that sort of thing, which would be wonderful. Uh, there are not too many of these places left. And they've been torn down day by down for the aluminum and concrete and that sort of thing. And I--I just hate to see it go. Uh, of course, this brings back memories; everything about here brings back memories galore. And most of them are fond memories, very fond memories.

STONEY: Well, I'm asking that because (clears throat) we've also talked with a lot of textile workers who are also anxious to hold on to their -- their --

WHITE: That's right.

STONEY: And --

WHITE: I think it's important.

STONEY: -- we were talking to a fellow the other day, and he had a brick form the old mill.

WHITE: Mm-hmm.

STONEY: He said, "this is my history."

WHITE: Yes, yes. And, uh, I think the workers felt that way.

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

WHITE: Uh, and, uh, going about trying to find people that worked at the mill, there are not many of them still alive because what happened, once they got a job, that was their job for life. And they stayed. There was very little turnover --

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

WHITE: -- except, uh, for illness and for -- occasionally they'd move out. And when the young people came along, of course, the war came along and changed things there. And, uh, so most of the, uh, old workers, they're just not here because it's past their time. And, uh, they have, uh, felt a loyalty.

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

WHITE: And, uh, a lot of the mill houses ha--have been, uh, uh, remodeled and I think, in fact, we'll go over there and seem some of those, if you'd like.

STONEY: OK. OK. Good.

JAMIE: All right?

STONEY: [Just?]

HELFAND: It was a really -- it was really beautiful inside --

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

HELFAND: -- with some mahogany and stuff. But we didn't go -- we just -- (break in audio)

STONEY: Sorry to do this to you.

JAMIE: OK. We're rolling.

STONEY: OK. Yeah. You --

WHITE: All right.

STONEY: -- were telling about your grandfather.

WHITE: All right. Well, my great-grandfather, Edwin Michael Holt, was big in the textile industry here. He had 10 children: seven sons and three daughters. He loved his daughters dearly and did not want them to go away when they got married. So he built each of them a house here on South Main Street. The first house up [Garrison Square?] was Aunt Mary's, and she was married first. Then Aunt Fanny was in the house right next to you, where the municipal building is. Then my grandmother, Emma, married James Wilson White from Fort Mill, South Carolina, and instead of moving back there, they built a house here. He also gave each of his sons-in-law a cotton mill to run.

STONEY: (laughter)

WHITE: Uh, my grandfather and his brother-in-law, James Lee Williamson, were in the mill at Saxapahaw, which is about 12 miles south of here, straight down this road. And this was an offer that you could not refuse.

STONEY: (laughter) If -- getting a cotton mill of your--your-- of your own, yes.

WHITE: That's right. And of course, my grandfather died in, I believe, 1886, at age 47. So he did not -- was not in the mill business for long. And his brother-in-law, uh, ran it -- the Williamson family ran it up until the 1930s.

STONEY: Now, you've been to the library.

WHITE: Uh.

STONEY: Judy, which, uh...? Let's go back in here, this -- to this.

HELFAND: It was through this door, [I think?].

STONEY: OK. We'll go through here, then.

WHITE: Well, let's see. I don't know if this back of the back bedroom. 00:31:00This is, uh -- this is the room that they -- that some of the people call a baby room.

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

WHITE: And I'm not sure -- they say they're not sure of whether it was because the baby stayed here or whether the babies were conceived here. (laughter) I was. (laughter) And, uh, this is the -- one of the bathroom -- we only had two bathrooms at the time. I think there are three now. The McClures added another and filled in these two windows which overlooked the garden, and made this a very bright, airy room with a door to the porch. And four big windows, there's not much room on the walls for furniture. And my parents had a big bas-- brass bed here, and I had a little, uh, tiny, uh, white painted iron crib here that I stayed in until I got old enough to move into a 00:32:00room of my own. This room was right over the furnace and the flue came up here, so this was so warm in the morning. So everybody used this as a dressing room --

STONEY: (laughter)

WHITE: -- because it stayed warmer. It was also used as a sewing room.

STONEY: Let's just see what's upstairs.

WHITE: OK. There are --

STONEY: I bet you -- what a wonderful --

WHITE: Oh!

STONEY: -- place to slide down.

WHITE: I'm going to slide down that one more time before we lea--

STONEY: OK.

WHITE: -- before we leave today. Can I do that?

STONEY: You could do that right now. (laughter)

WHITE: Right now? OK. (laughter)

STONEY: OK. (laughter)

WHITE: Well, does this ever bring back memories.

STONEY: (laughter) Oh, that's wonderful.

WHITE: Oh, I haven't rode that in about 60 years. (laughter) And this is the sort of loft hall, here. It was lighted by the window. This was the original bathroom. Another one's been added. This was the back bedroom. Now, these are the original floors, here. (coughs) And many of the rooms, they've been replaced with oak hardwood board on top of it. But these are the original floors. Let me see if that (inaudible) still in the closet. Uh. It looks like somebody -- some [curly wire?] is still here.

STONEY: (laughter) Oh, yes. I see that. Yeah.

WHITE: And, uh, (coughs) this, I've used each of these rooms as my bedroom, 00:34:00from time to time. And this was -- not a built-in. This was a big wardrobe that was kept here and where that was built in. And this is, uh, one of the-- one of the guest bedrooms and the other (inaudible).

STONEY: But this wallpaper's been replaced, I guess?

WHITE: Yes, I think so.

STONEY: Yeah.

WHITE: And, uh, (inaudible) it was a floral pattern when, uh, I was (inaudible). This room has no fireplace. The only room in the house that has no fireplace, right over the entrance hall. And let's see, one -- the only one that has the gothic window. And this was used as a storage room. Now, the McClures used it as a bedroom but, uh, we used it primarily as a storage room, trunks and everything. There's no usable attic space in the house. And this is the room 00:35:00-- now this, we -- was, actually a pink room. And the other room was a blue room when we lived here.

STONEY: And guests stayed here, did they?

WHITE: Guests stayed here, yes.

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

WHITE: And we had lots of guests. Lots of guests. My mother and father entertained all the time. And with all the kinfolks, there was somebody every week or two.

STONEY: So remember, in the South, where it was almost a disgrace to stay in a hotel?

WHITE: Yes.

STONEY: I mean --

WHITE: Oh, yes. Oh, yes.

STONEY: -- if you stayed in a hotel, you didn't have anybody to stay with.

WHITE: There was no hotel in town. There was no hotel in town.

STONEY: Yeah.

WHITE: And Burlington had the Alamance Hotel and that was long before the days of motels and, uh, you stayed with kinfolks or friends. And the transportation, being slow, uh, you didn't come stay one day and then go, you came and stayed a week or two weeks. And, uh, this was very nice because it made for very close relationship with -- between families and friends which I don't think you get 00:36:00now like you used to.

STONEY: No, I'm -- we're staying in a motel now and I just find it just so dreary by comparison.

WHITE: Oh, yes.

STONEY: Oh, goodness.

WHITE: Well, the bed and breakfasts are coming back.

STONEY: They are coming back, that's true. Mm-hmm.

WHITE: And I think that's more like the old times. But that's still not like --

STONEY: No.

WHITE: -- staying with a good friend or staying with a family member.

STONEY: Yeah.

WHITE: But, uh...

STONEY: One thing I do, when I -- I travel a lot for, uh, the cable, the National Federation of Local Cable Programmers. And I say the two things you've got to know, when I've -- one thing, you've got to put me up with people.

WHITE: Mm-hmm.

STONEY: No motels. (laughter)

WHITE: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

STONEY: Otherwise, it just -- uh, I get depressed.

WHITE: Well, I--I can see.

STONEY: Yeah.

WHITE: I can see.

STONEY: Yeah.

WHITE: When we went to Chicago, we stayed with a cousin in Chicago, which was nice. And, uh, we were in Hinsdale, which is about 20 miles from the Loop. 00:37:00Which, like I said, we drove 400 miles in a rented car (laughter) but it was lovely coming back. We played hearts at night and just had a great time.

STONEY: OK, I think we've done the house. We've done -- (break in audio) and just lead in. Just...

WHITE: All right.

JAMIE: Hang on. I'll come up [to show him here?].

STONEY: Oh-- all right, wait a minute. He wants to -- say when, Jamie.

JAMIE: Go.

WHITE: OK. This really brings back memories.

STONEY: I bet it does. (laughter) Big old door.

WHITE: It is.

STONEY: Yeah. Uh.

WHITE: We used to have a swing. Well, see, the hooks are still up there.

STONEY: Oh, yes.

WHITE: Out here.

STONEY: Well, just...

WHITE: This (inaudible) out there. (break in audio)

STONEY: -- which is an old Victorian. It was a place where, oh, in Abraham 00:38:00Lincoln's day, they had a lot of --

HELFAND: I couldn't believe he slid down. That was incredible.

STONEY: -- his wife used to go there and all that.

WHITE: Yeah.

HELFAND: (inaudible)

STONEY: And so they tried to fix that place up. And they had about 20-some houses they were trying to save. They finally cut it down to about five or six because they were just so expensive.

WHITE: Well, that's the thing -- (break in audio) and -- but apparently, they--they couldn't do it because of some, uh, uh, EPA thing. Uh, and so they were not able to go through with it, but they let, uh, -- well, that land, of course, is valuable.

STONEY: Sure.

WHITE: And, uh, so they're in the process of thinking about tearing it down (inaudible). That's a beautiful house on the inside, isn't it? I've been in it many, many times, but not any in the last 50 years. But, uh, I remember my Aunt Mary living there. But that house, (inaudible).

STONEY: We'll take a look at that as we go, yeah.

WHITE: OK.

STONEY: The... One of the things that interests me is--is how fine the details are on this house.

WHITE: Oh, they are.

STONEY: I mean, just -- just -- just the little -- the posts, how well that's fixed up.

WHITE: Well, they -- this house is part of the (break in audio)

STONEY: -- a pre-revolutionary house in, uh, New Jersey, in one of the small towns there. He spent his whole life fixing that thing up. And I went to see him in the hospital just before he died, and I asked him about his life. He was thinking -- he says, "You know, that's one thing I would never have done if I had it over again." Every -- every week there was something new to fix up about that. Yeah.

WHITE: (inaudible) yeah.

STONEY: "I wanted it to be right, but it's just not something that a single individual should try to do."

WHITE: That's right, that's right. The same thing with this. I mean, God. Getting the (inaudible) into a (inaudible)

STONEY: Of course, they've been so lucky in Savannah --

WHITE: Oh, yes.

STONEY: -- where they've saved the --

WHITE: Down there along the riverfront.

STONEY: That's right. I was told that they were not very supportive of the New Deal during the Depression and so they didn't get the money that would have destroyed those parks, to straighten out the streets. (laughter)

WHITE: Yeah, yeah. Thank heaven.

STONEY: I know that. (laughter)

WHITE: Well, we didn't -- we didn't get -- (break in audio)

JAMIE: There? Yeah. OK.

STONEY: What are your favorite memories of that old Packard that you had?

WHITE: Oh, I learned to drive on it. I learned to drive in the driveway here. I'd drive as far backwards as I did forward. So (laughter) when I learned to drive, I was as good at backing as I was going forward. I could get it up to 30 00:41:00miles an hour in that driveway and slam on the brakes before I got to that sidewalk.

STONEY: Who taught you?

WHITE: Uh, Hosey. Who was, uh, eh, my -- our everything. Cook, uh, handyman, mechanic, instructor, uh, disciplinarian, the whole works. A marvelous man.

STONEY: You can take it very easy around here.

WHITE: All right.

STONEY: And we'll go right around the courthouse and then come back.

WHITE: All right. This is, old Nix's General Store, up here on the corner. It's [not opening now?]. It did have a top on it where I took my first dancing class. But Ha-- Hugo Hazel took that off. And we used to stall the hogs right back there. On a cold November morning, [buggies?] would line up, 00:42:00seven, eight deep. And, uh, this was the main part of town. My doctor's office was over there, next to the jewelry store. Some of the places are here. This men's shop was here. It's [Hell's?] Men's Shop. The movie, where it was $0.15 for adults, $0.10 for kids. And of course, [Wayne McClure's?] furniture store is still there. So go up and turn around, and then come back and drive all the way around the courthouse. This was originally the old opera house here. Every town of any size or 1,000 up had its own opera house where the shows would come. It was later made into a furniture store -- [Richard Thompson's?] furniture store.

STONEY: What kind of shows did they have there?

WHITE: Uh, vaudeville, mainly, I guess. And, uh, just traveling shows around. 00:43:00Uh, the--the--the people in town would put on things. But it was primarily the, uh, the vaudeville shows. They didn't have television, and people couldn't go to the big cities to see them, so they -- shows came to the people.

STONEY: Well, I remember in Winston-Salem we have something called the Shelton-Amos Players that would come, oh, about half a year and they'd have a -- they'd have a -- it was a, uh, repertory company.

WHITE: Well, tha--this is the type of thing that would come here. And, uh, then the medicine shows would come around. And, uh, sometimes the evangelistic gospels, uh, and tents would come around and they'd pitch in the -- in the grove right across from where the house was. And we used to go over and hear the long-winded preachers, and sing all the good songs. They, uh, -- this has 00:44:00changed very little in the last 60 years. Very little.

STONEY: Now, this was a -- this was a center for, uh, all the cotton mill workers and for the farmers, I guess.

WHITE: Yes, uh-huh. Yes. And, uh, and for the lawyers. The people would come in and on Sunday morning, the men -- before church -- would come up and sit down on the curb around the courthouse and visit. And the courthouse was a pride. There's our Confederate monument. Of course, always facing north, against the enemy. People -- some of the people want to take that down, but if they do, that's a tragic shame.

HELFAND: I didn't quite get that. Could you say that -- could you repeat that, Dr. Holt?

WHITE: They -- the Confederate statute --

HELFAND: Yeah.

WHITE: -- uh, was, uh, put there by the United Daughters of the Confederacy, uh, I believe, and the townspeople to commemorate the, uh, soldiers in the war. And 00:45:00if you notices, he saw -- he's facing north. If you'll notice that any of the Confederate statues are always facing north. And that's because they were facing the enemy. And there's been some agitation to take this down from some of the new liberal groups because it says it's anti-- it's slavery, well it's not slavery. It's a commemoration of people who fought in a war to repel foreign invaders. And, uh, so it is, uh, -- I -- it'd be a shame if they take it down.

STONEY: OK, we'll want to get a cutaway of, uh, of the monument --

JAMIE: Mm-hmm.

STONEY: -- where we could see it.

WHITE: All right, we'll go--go--go back there?

JAMIE: Why don't we just keep -- do the drive and then we'll get out at the monument on the way back.

STONEY: Yeah. That -- this --

WHITE: OK.

STONEY: -- is, uh, his aunt's house, right here.

WHITE: This is the, uh, Williamson house, my Aunt Mary, who, uh, was the oldest, 00:46:00uh, daughter of E.M. Holt.

HELFAND: Could you say that again, sir?

WHITE: This is my Aunt -- this is Mary -- Mary Elizabeth Will-- uh, Will-- Holt Williamson, who was the daughter of, uh, E.M. Holt and my great-aunt. I remember her very well. She isn't -- lived in my memory. And this was the first house built. And this included the - almost the whole block, uh, up to the stores on the square. And it included, uh, servants' quarters, a carriage house, a gas house, barns, and all the things. It was surrounded by a picket fence. It had a little fountain around it in the back. And it had a rock garden. It had trees, an outdoor swing -- one of these double swings, where you swing back and forth. And we used to come up on Sunday afternoon and visit Aunt Mary's house, uh, because on Sunday afternoon, it was visiting time. And oftentimes, you found people not at home because they were out visiting somebody else, who were out -- also out visiting other people. But it was official 00:47:00visiting time on Sunday afternoon. But we would come up here very frequently to see Aunt Mary. The house --

STONEY: OK, let's, uh, get out now, Jaimie. (break in audio)

(break in audio) [00:47:08 - 00:50:34]

[silence; sign that reads "please 'save me'", sky, and exterior of building;

[silence; camera pans across exterior details of building]

[silence; camera pans across exterior of building]

WHITE: We drove in the city an--an--and I had no problem at all.

STONEY: That's -- the doctor and his wife were telling us about their time in New York. And it sounded like, uh, really, it was really good because so many people, uh, have nothing but horror stories about New York. (break in audio)

WHITE: And, uh, there's a place here that I think serves pretty good food. It's just --

STONEY: Oh, good, let's do that then.

WHITE: It's plain. It's just plain old country food.

STONEY: Right. That's what we want.

WHITE: And, uh, at least it was last time I ate there, and that was about a year and a half ago.

STONEY: Well, with all the fast food places, they're hard to find.

WHITE: Yes. They used to keep beans out here. We used to go by and grab a handful as we walked to school to put in our pea shooters. (laughter) We wouldn't shoot at the teacher but we'd shoot at the other folks. Here's the place, uh, right here. Rich's Cafeteria. There's a soda shop right here, and right next to it they used to have a little place -- remember the song "Jukebox Saturday Night?"

STONEY: Uh-huh.

WHITE: Well, that was "Jukebox Saturday Night." We'd go up there and get -- buy one drink and nurse it all night and hope the other people were putting nickels in the machine, and they'd -- everybody would get out and dance.

HELFAND: I wonder if -- would the kids from the cotton mills come up here, too, to do that, or just...?

WHITE: Yes, uh-huh.

HELFAND: Do you want to ask that question?

WHITE: And, uh, of course, Burlington was--was much more cosmopolitan than we were. But they -- we couldn't -- we'd have been like Burlington -- just been one town if pa-- folks hadn't passed a rule that the railroad track couldn't be within a mile of the courthouse. Because they were afraid they might scare the cows when they were milking and kick over the milk pail.

STONEY: (laughter)

WHITE: So the, uh, railroad ended up a mile from the courthouse and they built company shops up where -- which was a railroad shops for the North Carolina Railroad, and that later moved to Spencer when it became part of the Southern. And up here's the schoolhouse. This is a schoolhouse where all the Caucasians went. And aside from -- it's now a--a, uh, rest home. But aside from the 00:53:00[flag pokers?] were right in the middle it towers over just each -- either side of the steps. It's pretty much the same; you can see the -- where those two towers were. And this is where everybody in town went to school, OK.

STONEY: Mill children and owners' children all went to school together?

WHITE: Everybody. Everybody. Everybody went to school. If you lived in Graham you went to school here, or lived even in -- just outside of Graham. It was part of a county school so people from outside -- South Graham, uh, and so on -- went to there. This was our playground where we did more fighting than anything else.

STONEY: But there's -- was there any feeling between the mill children and the --

WHITE: None whatsoever.

STONEY: -- town?

WHITE: None whatsoever. The mill chil-- well, it was a mill town. Three mills and, uh, they, uh, -- so everybody was mill. (inaudible) And the s-- the 00:54:00super-- uh, superintendent lived right here, Seymour Holt and his son Don. And then Don Holt lived in one of these houses along here -- I can't remember which one -- and I used to take music from his wife. She, uh, -- and then, of course, he later became, uh, president and CEO of Cannon Mills. Now, this is Parker Street. Now, the mill village starts right down in here. Uh, I'm not sure about these houses right here. I think these were a little bit later; they look like asbestos siding. And this is the Voorhees plant which was later but the finishing mill, here. And, uh, [the sister Rora?] -- now, this pa-- this more modern one is--is new. Now, the office used to be in a mill house here. Now, here's a mill house. And you can see -- well, these are -- some of these 00:55:00are newer. Like, this is the finishing plant, here. And this was the main plant, up here. And, uh, on -- now, this is where the Ryans live --

HELFAND: We can come back and get the pictures. We need his face.

WHITE: -- and he ran the mill for Cannon. Now, this is the office building here. This is the new office of the building. And you see the tower on the old part of the building?

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

WHITE: And this is where the machine gun was set up, right in front of that. There was a big, uh, fence with barbed wire on top of it all the way around. And the machine gun at the strike was set up right in front of the office. Now -- (car horn) OK. The, uh, -- now these are some of the mill houses down here. And this was originally a mill house, I think, and they fitted it -- she's got clocks by the hundreds in this place. Now, these are some of the mill houses that have been redone.

STONEY: Who are living in these?

WHITE: Uh, anybody.

STONEY: So it's not just retired textile workers --

WHITE: No, no, no, --

STONEY: -- here?

WHITE: -- no, no. And, uh, this was -- used to be called the Frog Pond down here, it's sort of a marshy area. And of course, these are newer houses down in this area.

STONEY: OK, let's turn around and go back up to the mill --

WHITE: All right.

STONEY: -- and then we'll get out.

WHITE: We'll ride around to the back where you can see some of the older part.

HELFAND: (inaudible) Slow.

STONEY: Going a little fast.

WHITE: OK, I'm sorry.

HELFAND: Yeah, just (inaudible) yeah, that's a good...

STONEY: Yeah, that's good.

HELFAND: That's a -- this is a good pace.

WHITE: Let's see, some of these are -- for instance, I suspect this was a mill house that's just been covered with, uh, uh, brick and these are covered with other siding.

STONEY: Now, your father, he owned the mill, did he?

WHITE: Uh, he and his brother and sister. The three of them.

STONEY: And they owned these houses, then?

WHITE: They built the houses. Now, I'm not sure whether they sold them or whether they, uh, rented them. I'm-I'm not sure whether they did one or the other. Want to drive around the mill?

STONEY: Yes, and then we'll get out after that.

WHITE: All right. And, uh, I remember when they built this building, here. My dad's office was right here on this corner and my uncle's office was right next to it. This is all new; they've been added. And the--these are, uh, some of them has a big -- old ballpark was right over there. The powerhouse was 00:58:00right here, you see, and it was very near the road where you could -- with a good arm, you could throw dynamite over there very well. I remember during the strike -- see this door, here? There was a guard there with a high-powered rifle. And he kept guard there all night long because you could come right here and throw the dynamite right over.

HELFAND: Could we have him say that on camera again?

WHITE: And this was, uh, -- some of the carding was done here. This was the supply and, uh, loom fixers' place, and where I worked in doing the, uh, payroll, during the summer that I worked here. And these are some of the more -- other mill houses. Then this was the old general store, where a lot of 00:59:00people brought their goods and it's sort of a wreck now, but, uh, uh, John Holt's store and, uh, -- Jim Holt. I can't remember which is one, it's one. And then, of course, this is the finishing plant, down here, and the railroad -- this is the main -- not the main line, but the, you know, the regular railroad that goes down to Morehead City. And you see the spur line coming off to the mill, here. And then it had another one coming up here. So the shipping was done off of this platform. And I worked for a while with the shipping department here.

STONEY: I notice all these windows have been bricked in for --

WHITE: Yes.

STONEY: -- air-conditioning now.

WHITE: That's right. That's right. The only thing air-conditioned at that time was the movie houses. You'd pay $0.15 to see a show twice to keep cool. 01:00:00And this is the descendant of the Holt store. It served the neighborhood. The nearest other store was downtown. Now -- well, there was another one up at Sidney, which is -- Mill, which is a little ways up that way. Now, which way do you want to go?

STONEY: All right, I think we've got to find a place to park because --

WHITE: OK.

STONEY: -- I want to get out and redo some of this, uh, outside the car because I'm not quite sure how much we're going to be able to see.

WHITE: Well, I don't know, because they built the new part all the way around the old part.

STONEY: Yeah.

WHITE: But how about parking down on Melville Street?

STONEY: That'd be fine. That's fine.

WHITE: And, uh, (inaudible) get on the other side, I guess. I'll turn around and...