JUDITH HELFAND:(inaudible).
GEORGE STONEY: OK, so, till we get started, OK.
FRANCES ALLEN: (inaudible).
DR.WHITE: OK.
STONEY: Yeah.
FRANCES ALLEN: Here's y'all's iced tea.
STONEY: OK, thank you, (inaudible).
BILL ALLEN ALLEN: OK.
FRANCES ALLEN: You gonna eat it?
STONEY: Uh, I'll have some in just a minute, yeah.
FRANCES ALLEN: OK, I'll fix you another plate. Both of them wanted some.
STONEY: Doctor?
FRANCES ALLEN: (inaudible).
STONEY: I wanted to -- wanted to sit down and t-- and, uh, tell us about, uh,
when your father walked around the mills.WHITE: OK.
STONEY: And see if this fella can remember it.
WHITE: Well he didn't come down to [Trollingwood?] as much he did at the other one.
STONEY: Yeah.
WHITE: But, uh, remember, with, uh, Dad, I used to go with him. He'd try to
00:01:00make rounds in the mill, with every shift.HELFAND: Could you say that one more time?
WHITE: Was that -- you all right?
HELFAND: I'll tell you when.
WHITE: No. Say when.
HELFAND:(inaudible).
FRANCES ALLEN: OK.
HELFAND:(inaudible) Thanks, so much.
FRANCES ALLEN: So if it's not sweet enough, there's sugar (inaudible).
HELFAND: OK. Thank you.
FRANCES ALLEN: If it's not sweet enough, we've got Sweet n' Low.
STONEY: Thank you.
M3: OK.
WHITE: OK? (inaudible)
HELFAND: George, do you want your camera behind his head? File? Let me just grab
that from you.STONEY: OK, all right.
FRANCES ALLEN: (inaudible).
STONEY: All right, Doctor?
WHITE: All right.
BILL ALLEN: Can you see them? We went to my daughter's farm, this morning. Him
00:02:00and her are both retired. That's what they [raised?]. I bet they get four bushels [off of the vine?] after we left this morning.WHITE: Yeah, uh, Bill Allen, do you remember when my dad used to come around and
go around making rounds in the mill?BILL ALLEN: I know when he come around when I worked there, after, when was it,
-- nineteen... I married in -- I know when I went to work there.WHITE: Well...
BILL ALLEN: About 1930 (inaudible).
WHITE: Yeah, he used to go around -- I used to go around with him when I'd
go to the mill. I used to hide out in the car, and he used to try to make rounds with every shift. If they ran one shift, he'd make a round, say, in the morning. If they ran two shifts, he'd make one in the morning and one in the afternoon after the afternoon shift came on. And, uh, we'd go around and do -- see how everybody's going along. Now, Uncle Harvey, he stayed in the office most of the time.BILL ALLEN: I know he did. But he'd come once in a while, and he'd never
fail. He -- in fact, he'd come to see me here. I tried to run him out of there one time. (laughter) He'd come in there, and he -- I, I come around. I was (inaudible) running frames, too. But I had a (inaudible) here, but I come around 00:03:00there, and I was in a hurry. And I (inaudible). And he got back out of the way, and I looked at him, and I said, "Are you looking for somebody in here?" "No, not -- no special one." I said, "You'd better get out of here, because they don't allow people in here." (inaudible) didn't have no (inaudible) thing around the mill. "They don't allow people in here no how, so you'd better get out of here (inaudible), 'cause the boss man will see you directly. He'll tell you, but you don't want him to tell you." And so, he thanked me for it. Well, (laughs) I didn't have time to mess with him.WHITE: That was my Uncle Harvey.
BILL ALLEN: Yeah, that Uncle Harvey.
WHITE: Now he didn't do much out in the mill. He stayed pretty much in the office.
BILL ALLEN: Well, he came -- he come out there. That was the first time I ever
-- I didn't know who he was. (laughter) I'd heard about him, but anyway. At the -- oh, I don't know. I reckon it been 30 or 40 minutes later, [Rabbit?] came out there and sit down. "That old man, you (inaudible). You run him out, 00:04:00didn't you?" I said, "Damn right I did. He didn't have no business in here." (inaudible) Said, "You didn't know who he was, did you?" I said, "No, I didn't. Who was it?" Says, "That's Mr. Harvey." I said, "Who?" He said, "Harvey." "Harvey who?" I said -- he said "Harvey White." I said, "The hell it was." (laughs) I said, "Well, did he tell you to fire me?" He said, "No." Said, "He kind of got a kick out of you." (laughter) I said, "Well, that's all right, then."WHITE: You were doing your job.
BILL ALLEN ALLEN: Huh?
WHITE: You were doing your job.
BILL ALLEN: I was doing what I thought I ought to be. He was in the way there.
WHITE: That's right, that's right, that's right.
BILL ALLEN: And didn't (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). Nobody. (laughter)
In the mills, you had to do what you had to do. And I always wanted to do it quick.STONEY: When did they start building the fences around the mill?
BILL ALLEN: It was after the about -- It was when that strike was (inaudible).
We didn't have no fence around that mill. And it was somewhere in the '30s, though, I know. Um, I believe it was anyhow.WHITE: The (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) --
BILL ALLEN: I said '30s. I don't know. I -- that's when I married, in
00:05:001929. And, uh, I done had -- it was about '35, '36.WHITE: At the mill in Graham, the fence was there long before that.
BILL ALLEN: It was?
WHITE: Mm-hmm.
BILL ALLEN: I don't remember the fence being at -- uh, after that. (inaudible).
WHITE: I remember the fence because I remember when I was in the first grade,
Jack Holt and myself were out there playing, and -- inside. We'd gone to the mill, and we were all playing in the mill a lot. And [Ura Robinson?], uh, came up on the outside of the fence, and we had just met a couple of days before, in first grade. And the fence was in between us, so I know it was there. And that was in nineteen, uh, twenty-eight. So I know it was there in 1928.BILL ALLEN: Was it fenced in?
WHITE: Yes, it was fenced in, in 1928. It wasn't -- the mill (overlapping
dialogue; inaudible).BILL ALLEN: How old was you?
WHITE: I was six --
BILL ALLEN: About seven years old?
WHITE: Mm-hmm, six or seven. Uh-huh.
BILL ALLEN: (laughter) Thought you must not have been, 'cause she's, uh --
00:06:00I know how old she is, and you -- you're two years --WHITE: Well, I'm between Frances and Jack.
BILL ALLEN: You're two years young-- younger than she is.
WHITE: Mm-hmm.
STONEY: Did you know people in Graham?
BILL ALLEN: Not many. I'll tell you, about the only one I knowed in Graham
was a first cousin I had. He knowed -- did you live in Graham? No. He knowed her. You didn't. [Minnie Nicks?].WHITE: Oh, yes. Oh, yes.
BILL ALLEN: Minnie -- Minnie was my first cousin.
WHITE: I didn't realize that. (laughter) That's Nicks's General Store.
And W.J. Nicks and --BILL ALLEN: Yeah.
WHITE: -- Minnie Nicks taught me in Sunday school, and was just a real fine
person. We used to go up to [her place and, uh, visit with her, and she'd always give us cookies when we walked into the store.STONEY: And I saw the sign of the Nicks store.
WHITE: Nicks General Store -- general merchandise.
STONEY: Still there, yeah.
WHITE: That's right.
STONEY: Yeah. And Doctor, could you ask him about the strike and so forth?
WHITE: Well, now, do you remember anything more about the strike that, uh, was
in 1934?BILL ALLEN: No, I don't -- I don't -- didn't know much about it, only
just what I heard. You -- we didn't even have a paper there. But we heard 00:07:00about it, and I know what happened up yonder. But I don't know how I knowed, but we knowed (inaudible).WHITE: Do you remember about the Plaid Mill?
BILL ALLEN: The Plaid Mill?
WHITE: Yeah, that's right.
BILL ALLEN: That's -- I believe that's where, uh, that boy lost his arm, at
Plaid Mill. And I don't believe they had a -- [if?] they did. I don't know whether they had a fence or not, but that boy, he got that arm chopped.WHITE: With the dynamite.
BILL ALLEN: I don't know what it was, but (inaudible). I don't know whether
he was trying to shoot the dynamite. He was one of the strikers.WHITE: Mm-hmm.
BILL ALLEN: I knowed him, because he married, uh, Old Man John Overman's
daughter, and he was a one-armed painter around. He was a good painter, but the married Old Man Overman's daughter, and he was married to her then -- Hollis Pruitt.WHITE: Do you, uh -- do you remember about any of the other -- ? Well, of
course, the other two mills in town -- in Graham had closed down -- Oneida and Sidney.BILL ALLEN: Yeah.
00:08:00WHITE: And, uh, then somebody else got them, and they opened up, and Sidney
became a hosiery mill, and Oneida, I think, uh -- was it, uh -- did Burlington buy that? Burlington Mills? I think they did.BILL ALLEN: I don't know. I went across the street over there one time. They
was making clothes, and I had never seen that. They had a table about like that with cloth laying on it. I mean, 12, 14 layers of cloth laid down, (inaudible) long as the cloth was come off of a loom, I reckon. I don't know, but they were great long. And they had a saw like that, go around there. I never seen them cut out clothes (inaudible). That's what they were doing.WHITE: Uh-huh.
BILL ALLEN: And never went up there but one time, and I don't know I what I
went for now.WHITE: Did, uh -- [Bill Allen?], did you remember anything about attempts to
unionize the mills before that strike or afterwards? About the unions coming down and trying --BILL ALLEN: They, they, they used -- that's what they were trying to do then,
was get unionized in the mill. All of us -- all over (inaudible) somebody here 00:09:00to look after it. Of course, I don't who the big man was, but we had always been told, all my life, that there wasn't no union that was gonna hold with the railroads. (laughter) That's what we were told, and I didn't believe it. That's, uh, kind of like we all are now. We're all unionized, but the, the government is the boss.WHITE: What did you think about the flying squadrons -- the folks that came by
and caused the strike? What was your feeling about them that --BILL ALLEN: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).
WHITE: -- did the strike and didn't let you go to work?
BILL ALLEN: I don't know. I never did get in touch with none of them, because
they, they tried it out here, but, uh, I don't know who they had there. They had one or two -- just one or two out here, thought that they ought to get to strike on account of the company wasn't paying us enough. That's always been the cotton mill's trouble. They didn't pay enough. But, uh, I don't know what they done, but, uh, I was always told, if the man didn't make money -- I 00:10:00mean, make enough off of me for him to have some money, I didn't have a job, and he couldn't keep me there.WHITE: Well, some of the --
BILL ALLEN: That's, that's (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).
WHITE: Some of the people today don't seem to realize that. (laughter)
BILL ALLEN: No.
WHITE: That without a profit, you don't have a business.
BILL ALLEN: They, uh -- it's like, uh, talking about the politics. We get
into that, too, now, like everything. But Gore, I thought -- I heard him make two or three speeches, and I thought he was the best. But I read a piece in the paper. (laughs) It changed my mind. And I was also told this morning by a friend of mine that was a young 'un when I was. Yeah, he's gonna vote for Gore, and, uh, uh --STONEY: Clinton.
BILL ALLEN: -- Clinton. I said, "No, sir. Ain't gonna vote for neither one
of them." Said, "You voting for him if you don't vote for him -- if you don't vote for the other fella." I said, "Well, I ain't gonna vote for somebody I don't think ought to have it." And after I read that (inaudible) 00:11:00they said he (inaudible) he didn't know nothing but politics. He had never worked at another job in his life. And Gore was. He had, had never worked in a job (inaudible). Like I was raised, [I hope?]. That's --WHITE: Well, you started working in the mills, uh -- how old were you -- were
you when you first started working?BILL ALLEN: I was about 14 (inaudible) when I went to work regular. I worked
some before that. Uh, well, it wasn't much, but I worked a little while. And he got sick and I had to come home, and --WHITE: Your father?
BILL ALLEN: Huh?
WHITE: Your father got sick?
BILL ALLEN: Yeah, I had to come home and when I got home, why, he died. And I
had to stay home. My mammy had six more little young 'uns to raise, and I had to be the man. And you know what she done. I know what she done. But she was so sad about us not having no education that she put three of them young 'uns, the three smallest ones, in the Hughes orphan home in Danville. And they all 00:12:00finished high school. And I don't -- I don't think either one of them (inaudible). [Cole?] went to some kind of a school in town or somewhere where she could go take a business test, she, she filled out, uh, income tax for people and stuff like that, at home. But now she got arthritis so bad she can't write. (laughs)STONEY: Doctor, do you want to ask him about when your f-- you and your father
started, uh -- drove around. Did you ever come over to this mill?WHITE: Uh, occasionally. We didn't come here as much as we went up to the
other ones.STONEY: You might describe, uh, what you did, though, (overlapping dialogue;
inaudible) and so forth.WHITE: Well, uh, we would come down, uh, I guess maybe Dad would come down,
maybe once or twice a week to [Trollingwood?] and make rounds.BILL ALLEN: Yeah, something like that.
WHITE: And --
BILL ALLEN: And sometimes they -- sometimes it looked like he'd be longer
than that, but, uh, I don't think he ever come and I didn't see him. I believe they all (inaudible) -- I lived next to the wall over there, and I 00:13:00believe that, uh, everybody (inaudible) come in, come out this part, and come right down (inaudible). That's [how come I seen?] Harvey. (laughs)WHITE: And, um, but, um, I remember coming down with him to -- several times to
visit --BILL ALLEN: Yeah.
WHITE: -- down -- in the mill down here. In fact, I remember driving a train
down from, uh, the Graham mill down.BILL ALLEN: A what?
WHITE: A train -- one of these engines -- a switch engine that you -- worked
around Burlington and Graham, that moved the boxcars around.BILL ALLEN: Oh.
WHITE: And, uh, drove the -- uh, they let me drive a train for a few miles down
the road, and I thought I was in hog heaven.BILL ALLEN: Yeah, you was, wasn't you?
WHITE: But, uh, we would come down every now and then. Uh, but, uh, not as much
as we went to the mill up in Graham.BILL ALLEN: We used to have a CBer down here. His name was [Freeman?] (inaudible), but he got on -- he, he rode the caboose. That was his job, on the train -- freight train. He rode the caboose.
We called him [Cinderhead?]. (laughter) That was his nickname -- his handle. 00:14:00WHITE: Yeah.
BILL ALLEN: When I got in the CB business, you didn't have no handle. If they
ever heard you use it, they took your license. But they got it so now you don't even have to have a license. And I had that whole set when I lived at the beach. I had to have the whole thing down there, and the same thing up here, you know? I had two cars, and, and a boat. But I had to have -- I would (inaudible). Just had to have. But down there, if you got a boat, it's something to have. You have any trouble you call the Coast Guard and they come and get you. That's, that's worth a whole lot.WHITE: Mm-hmm.
STONEY: Well, this has been very helpful.
BILL ALLEN: Huh?
STONEY: Appreciate you -- your talking with us.
BILL ALLEN: Well, I enjoy talking to anybody now. I can't do nothing much
else but talk. (laughter) When I get to setting in here, you get so tired. I'm able -- I go out there in that shed. And I got two lawnmower, push mowers 00:15:00(inaudible). She (inaudible) when she gets ready. (laughter) But the other one, I can't get it fixed. I got it -- I, I got one working, though.STONEY: Well, the doctor's going to be showing us around, uh, the village
this afternoon.BILL ALLEN: Up yonder?
STONEY: Yeah, yeah,
BILL ALLEN: Oh, yeah, that's the way it is.
STONEY: Yeah.
BILL ALLEN: I went to Atlanta, Georgia, one time, and, uh -- to see my aunt and
my mammy and her husband was with her. And he liked to drink, and I didn't mind having a drink myself, either. So we'd go to the liquor store to -- I forgot the name of the little town about 25 or 30 miles away from there. But we'd go [wherever we wanted to?] get a drink of liquor. You could get the little half a pint. We could drink a half a pint between us, but you couldn't drink at the liquor store. You had to get outside (inaudible). But the second morning I went over there, and the -- you get the liquor. Me and him went. And the boy come out there and said, "You got a North Carolina tag on there." I 00:16:00said, "I sure have. I'm from North Carolina. I come and see my aunt over there." "Well," he said, "what part of North Carolina." I said, "I can tell you, but you'll know nothing about it at all." You could -- you, you -- just a little old place, (inaudible) damn near, I said, "ain't even a hole in the wall." But Atlanta's a big town. I knowed, I done worked there. They ain't -- But, uh, he (inaudible) said, "You can tell me." I said, "Yeah, I can tell you. (inaudible) Trollingwood. I thought I'd make it small as I could. "Trollingwood? You mean Haw River?" I said, "Yeah, Haw River." He said, "Did you know [Chris?] (inaudible)?" I said, "Yeah, I knowed Chris (inaudible). Who are you?" And he told me who he was, and I remembered some of his people, living down on the river, up towards [Hopedale?], but they lived down at -- down on the river there. And I told him about them. He said, "Yeah, that was -- (inaudible) so and so." He said, "They left and came here with me when I was six years old." But said, "(inaudible) a whole lot went on up (inaudible) I ain't never forgot." I said [I'm going back?]. (laughter) And I don't know any of the people that live up there now, 00:17:00but Crawford Thomas --WHITE: Yeah.
BILL ALLEN: And his wife. And she eighty (inaudible).
WHITE: They, uh, uh -- oh, who is that one -- that -- one of them has a mill
running up there now. It's a -- at Hopedale.BILL ALLEN: Hopedale?
WHITE: Yeah, didn't you -- wasn't that what you were talking about?
BILL ALLEN: No, I'm talking about Trollingwood.
WHITE: Trollingwood, yeah. OK, yeah, I'm sure they sold all the houses.
STONEY: Yeah.
BILL ALLEN: But Hopedale has too, I think.
WHITE: (inaudible) in September.
BILL ALLEN: Well, she says she's come (inaudible). I don't know I didn't
know (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).HELFAND: What's happening in September?
WHITE: Oh, we are having all of our high-school class to come down for lunch
and sightsee in Charlotte for a -- for a day.HELFAND: What's it like -- what's it like to see people that worked for
your daddy?WHITE: Oh, well, I'll tell you, it's, uh -- it's nice. It's nice.
FRANCES ALLEN: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).
WHITE: Because they, they remember him, and most of them remember him with a
big heart.BILL ALLEN: Hey, (inaudible) [outsider?]. They all had lived right (inaudible).
They had to (inaudible). But I didn't get a job. Didn't ask for a job, 00:18:00because it's -- the man (inaudible). And he, he thought I could (inaudible). And he said -- he said he'd show me, and he did. But I -- he didn't have to show me. I knowed what I was doing when I went in, because I done been in a mill before. And he didn't know it. He didn't know I could run frames.HELFAND: What was Mr. White like?
BILL ALLEN: Huh?
HELFAND: S-- what was Mr. White like?
BILL ALLEN: Mr. who?
HELFAND: Mr. White.
WHITE: [Will?].
BILL ALLEN: Oh, he was all right. Not him -- I didn't know him.
WHITE: (inaudible). (laughter) It's Harvey. Harvey -- Harvey you didn't
know very well.BILL ALLEN: His daddy was a [catbird?]. Everybody liked him. Everybody liked
him, but his brother -- his daddy's brother -- he [didn't?] take on too much. Uh, he was a businessman. He had -- everything on him was business. But he took on to me a whole lot. I thought a lot of Harvey White. But his wife wouldn't let me go in and see him. He got sick. Had to be before he died -- a 00:19:00while before he died, too. But I didn't know how sick he was, but he had s-- good and bad sick. He was getting better, but she wouldn't let me even go in to him. And while I was talking to her, and she was telling me how he was, he called and said, "Come on in here, Bill Allen." So (inaudible) went.F1: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).
BILL ALLEN: She looked -- she looked plumb disgusted.
HELFAND: This is for his daddy?
FRANCES ALLEN: (inaudible) daddy.
BILL ALLEN: Yeah.
WHITE: Yeah, that's right.
BILL ALLEN: No, his, his uncle.
WHITE: No, no, it was my dad who was sick.
BILL ALLEN: Huh?
WHITE: It was my dad that was sick.
BILL ALLEN: No, it wasn't Will.
WHITE: No, my Uncle Harvey wasn't sick.
BILL ALLEN: Yeah, he was.
STONEY: (inaudible) that's fine. Yeah, good.
F1: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).
BILL ALLEN: Yeah, he got sick.
STONEY: Telephone number?
BILL ALLEN: Lived out on the main street going up there, and had great big
trees. And I believe Will did, too, though. Didn't he live in one of the houses?WHITE: Mm-hmm.
BILL ALLEN: I never did go to his house, but I went to see Harvey. I never will
forget, "Come on in here, Bill Allen." I went on in, and he was getting up on the couch (inaudible), you know, and (inaudible). He was completely dressed. He was ready to go or come back, I don't know which. But he was right. I 00:20:00thought a whole lot of him. And, of course, his daddy was the one that helped me fixed my rifle. (laughs) He was a plum good fella.FRANCES ALLEN: How many want toma -- uh, who wants tomatoes? Here, I got
plenty of bags.WHITE: (inaudible) brown bag here. A little brown bag of tomatoes. Just a
couple of 'em. It's just Shirley and myself.FRANCES ALLEN: [Try not to give me?]. See now (inaudible), you don't want
that one?WHITE: Well, whatever -- I'll let you pick them out.
FRANCES ALLEN: (inaudible) got mashed, though.
WHITE: Jack gave us some, when -- the last time were down here. Whoa, whoa,
whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. (inaudible) before we eat them all.FRANCES ALLEN: All right, who wants some more? Y'all want some?
STONEY: We'll take some, yes.
FRANCES ALLEN: You want any?
STONEY: Uh, just a few. Thank you.
BILL ALLEN: You got another sack?
FRANCES ALLEN: Huh?
BILL ALLEN: I got another --
STONEY: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).
FRANCES ALLEN: Huh?
BILL ALLEN: These are mine. And there's another sack around there.
FRANCES ALLEN: Oh, yeah.
WHITE: Jack's [her?] brother.
BILL ALLEN: We got tomatoes out there, but they just -- well, got some that
00:21:00big, but they don't (inaudible) good now.FRANCES ALLEN: We mashed them (inaudible).
STONEY: Well, that's fine. That's --
FRANCES ALLEN: That's four.
STONEY: That's great. Thank you.
FRANCES ALLEN: Don't take mine.
HELFAND: Did you know Mr. -- did you know Mr. White also?
FRANCES ALLEN: We lived across the street from each other. We was -- and at
Christmas, when, uh -- morning, he'd get up before we would and would like never go to bed. And, uh, he would shoot a firecracker at the window, and Mama said that was all. All of us young 'uns jumped up and went downstairs. (laughs)BILL ALLEN: Who'd shoot firecrackers?
FRANCES ALLEN: (inaudible) would shoot a firecracker at the window to wake us
up every morning.WHITE: Right by Jack's head. (laughter)
BILL ALLEN: It ain't -- it was -- it wasn't illegal then.
WHITE: No, we got five thousand of them.
FRANCES ALLEN: No.
BILL ALLEN: Is that your husband?
HELFAND: No, sir.
BILL ALLEN: No. Well, I was going to give you two of these or three of these,
so you can give him one. Can you still give him one?HELFAND: I guess I'll give him one.
That's OK. You lived across the street from the Whites? 00:22:00FRANCES ALLEN: Right across the street.
HELFAND: Did your family work in the mill, too?
FRANCES ALLEN: No.
WHITE: Let me get the --
FRANCES ALLEN: Shh, be quiet.
HELFAND: So what did they do?
WHITE: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).
FRANCES ALLEN: Mama -- Daddy died when, uh, [Jerry?] was six -- no, two years old.
WHITE: (inaudible) died '33.
FRANCES ALLEN: And so, Mama had 10 children, and she didn't work. She got a
little pension, and, and all that. And, uh -- but, lord, we'd play on that street. See, wasn't anybody -- no cars or anything. Wasn't no cars or anything over there. We'd play on the streets and all that. Didn't have to worry about nothing. And you remember, when you had -- Elliott had more toys. All them big toys. And we would make a train, and it would be about 12 children riding up and down the street like a train. We'd have a wagon, a tricycle, a bicycle, and a scooter.WHITE: And play out at night, play hide and seek, and kick the can, and...
FRANCES ALLEN: Yeah, we sure did.
WHITE: And, uh --
FRANCES ALLEN: That old, old tree in the front yard.
WHITE: Yeah, yeah.
FRANCES ALLEN: And, uh --
00:23:00WHITE: And her brother is my best friend.
FRANCES ALLEN: Yeah, Jack used to go up there and stay the -- spend the summer
at Morganton, when they'd go up there for the summer, up at Miss White's.HELFAND: So you're a Holt too?
FRANCES ALLEN: Yeah, I'm a Holt.
WHITE: We're about 10th cousins, roughly. (laughter) Figure it out. About
10th cousin. Isn't it something like that?FRANCES ALLEN: I don't know. We always felt like we was brothers and sisters.
WHITE: Yeah, more or less. (laughter)
FRANCES ALLEN: And we would eat supper earlier than Elliott would. Because Mr.
White wouldn't get home. They wouldn't have their supper until about six, we'd have ours about 5:30. And Mama would pull the biscuits out of the oven, you know, and Elliott wasn't supposed to eat anything till suppertime. He would get one of them biscuits and just fly up there. And Mama said, "Elliott, Elliott!" Miss White would laugh about it. He'd get them biscuits and --WHITE: Yeah.
FRANCES ALLEN: -- take off.
HELFAND: He was showing us around the house today. We went to the old White
home this morning.FRANCES ALLEN: Oh, did you?
HELFAND: Yes, ma'am.
FRANCES ALLEN: Well, I sure hope they don't have to tear down the old
00:24:00(inaudible). Uh, I mean, the old Williamson house.WHITE: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible), yeah, that's (inaudible).
FRANCES ALLEN: Lord, I've slept in about every room in that house. The
[Ivers?] lived there.WHITE: The [Ivers?] lived there.
FRANCES ALLEN: The [Ivers?] lived there, and we used to go all the way up to
the very top.WHITE: Yeah, but see, the (inaudible) --
FRANCES ALLEN: Old tower --
WHITE: In the tower -- they (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).
BILL ALLEN: I do. And she talk when she's here, I don't say nothing.
WHITE: I can't say nothing.
BILL ALLEN: And I'd bought that for her (inaudible). We had that one at the
beach. I bought that at -- we used to live at the beaches in summertime.FRANCES ALLEN: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).
STONEY: But (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) I like -- I like your --
(break in audio)
FRANCES ALLEN: -- (inaudible) this. The old mill (inaudible).
WHITE: (inaudible) municipal building, yeah, (inaudible).
FRANCES ALLEN: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). And the work and all is
perfect, isn't it? (inaudible). I take it out and clean it about twice a year. Take it out and put all that stuff back in it and dust it.HELFAND: We've been trying to f-- understand what it was like to grow up, you
know -- to, to grow up in a town like -- 00:25:00FRANCES ALLEN: Yeah, and when --
HELFAND: -- like Graham, and...
FRANCES ALLEN: Yeah, and we'd -- uh, everybody went to the same school, and
we'd walk. And when the basketball games and all was on, Mama and -- they had so many children, she knew we'd be coming behind somebody or in front of somebody, you know? So we walked from -- all the way home. She didn't, didn't have to worry about nothing.WHITE: Where did you come --
FRANCES ALLEN: But we all ended up getting in the house about the same time.
WHITE: Uh, yeah, we'd go -- we'd walk to school together some -- like
sometimes. And I'd ride my bike, though, more than I did that, because it was quicker. I was (inaudible).FRANCES ALLEN: When it was real cold, your daddy would take us.
WHITE: Yeah, uh-huh.
FRANCES ALLEN: And he wouldn't leave till eight o'clock, and we had to be
at school in 8:00. And I was worried to death. I'd go over there and sit and sit. And, um --WHITE: But we never were late.
FRANCES ALLEN: No, we were never late.
WHITE: Never were late. (laughter)
FRANCES ALLEN: But, um, Mr. White would get us there just on time, and we'd
have to run in school to get there on time. But --STONEY: But you had the chance to ride -- you ride in that big taxi?
FRANCES ALLEN: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) snowing or sleeting, or, or
raining or something, yeah, we'd get a ride with Elliott on real bad days. 00:26:00And, um, um, oh, lord, everybody was at school then. It'd be so cold when you'd walk that the teachers would run cold water on your hands. Go down in the basement and (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).STONEY: Do you have any pictures of, uh, you -- uh, you people in that car?
FRANCES ALLEN: Yeah, I think so.
WHITE: I don't -- I don't have --
FRANCES ALLEN: No, not in school.
WHITE: Not of her.
FRANCES ALLEN: Just in -- just school pictures, is all. We don't have any pictures.
WHITE: Well, you -- you saw the -- I have a picture of her about three in my
scrapbook. You all saw that.FRANCES ALLEN: I didn't know that.
WHITE: Yeah, I do.
FRANCES ALLEN: I saw that. I know it.
WHITE: You and Aunt [Jane?] and [Helen?] and [Toppsy?] and --
FRANCES ALLEN: Yeah, and Helen. And I didn't know you had those.
WHITE: -- [Florence?] and [Betty?] and, uh, (inaudible) --
FRANCES ALLEN: Yeah.
WHITE: -- and Jack.
FRANCES ALLEN: Yeah. They didn't make pictures back yonder like they do now.
WHITE: I saw that -- like, I was up in the attic there yesterday, and I saw
that little camera that I got --FRANCES ALLEN: Is that right?
WHITE: -- way back in 1935.
HELFAND: George, maybe you could tell Fran-- Frances, right?
FRANCES ALLEN: Yeah.
HELFAND: Maybe you could tell Frances how we -- how we -- or maybe Mr. -- White
could tell Frances how we -- how well we're --(break in audio)
HELFAND: The -- you know, you, you read in the newspaper --
WHITE: Oh, yeah, they had a -- it was an article in the newspaper that, uh,
00:27:00these folks were going to do a, um -- a pilot film, or a special TV film for PBS on the textile industry in the South in the 1930s, with a particular interest in the, uh, big strike in 1934.FRANCES ALLEN: Oh, is that right?
WHITE: And I remember so vividly the things about it. So I sat down and wrote,
uh -- wrote them a letter. And then, they answered it, and then they came down, and that's how we got together.FRANCES ALLEN: Oh, is that how it was? Well, I didn't know (overlapping
dialogue; inaudible).WHITE: And they're interested in the small town -- how life was back in the
'30s in a small town, and that sort of thing. And they've been around taking pictures all over town.FRANCES ALLEN: And this is your job?
STONEY: Mm-hmm.
WHITE: Did you remember that -- uh, that year, 1934?
FRANCES ALLEN: Well, I should, but I can't remember what happened in '34. I
remember Hazel.WHITE: Well, that was a lot later. That was in -- that was '50, '50 -- I, I...
FRANCES ALLEN: I wasn't but 10 years old in '30.
WHITE: Yeah, you were down -- in '34, you were -- no, you were older than
that. You were --FRANCES ALLEN: Oh, yeah --
WHITE: You were 14.
FRANCES ALLEN: -- 14, yeah, 14.
00:28:00WHITE: I was 12.
FRANCES ALLEN: (laughs) How come you remember my age so well?
WHITE: Because you're two years older than I am, that's why. (laughter)
FRANCES ALLEN: Because lord knows --
WHITE: And Jack's one year younger.
FRANCES ALLEN: Don't they fly by?
STONEY: Don't you remember the troops being here? The National Guard?
FRANCES ALLEN: The what?
STONEY: The National Guard being --
FRANCES ALLEN: Yeah, I remember them.
STONEY: What do you remember about them?
FRANCES ALLEN: Uh, well, the uniforms, I reckon. And the [old?] army. But I
remember more about the firehou-- fire department, firehouse and all.STONEY: Mm-hmm.
FRANCES ALLEN: People that was in the firehouse, (inaudible) [Nutley?].
STONEY: It's funny, uh, in a number of places where we've been, the chief
memory of -- about the National Guard is of, of, uh, girls getting to know some of the fellas (laughter) --FRANCES ALLEN: Oh, is that right?
STONEY: -- who came from away.
FRANCES ALLEN: Well, I can't remember anybody in the National Guards.
WHITE: Mm-hmm.
BILL ALLEN: She just remembered (inaudible) in the armory, it was all boys.
WHITE: Yes.
BILL ALLEN: That was all she remembered. (laughter)
STONEY: What was that?
WHITE: He said --
00:29:00BILL ALLEN: She just remembered at the armory it was all boys. That's all she
remembered about the armory, (laughter) and the National Guard.WHITE: Yeah. There -- it wasn't our National Guard, because we had a medical
unit here, and that wouldn't do much good. (laughs)FRANCES ALLEN: Yeah.
WHITE: And the National Guard headquarters was up over the firehouse.
FRANCES ALLEN: Yeah, well now that one has moved -- I mean, (inaudible) a whole
lot more. I -- I'm -- I can't remember it;WHITE: Yeah, yeah, but at that time, it was just a medical unit.
FRANCES ALLEN: Yeah, I can't remember the National Guard when --
STONEY: Well, White, are, are you s-- convinced, still, to this day, that it
was necessary to bring in the National Guard?WHITE: I think it was. I think it was. Because of the violence they, they...
Well, uh, they, of course, dynamited the Plaid Mill. And they tried to dynamite, uh, Sheriff Stockard. And when you got people throwing dynamite up against people's houses --FRANCES ALLEN: I know.
WHITE: -- when they're there, uh, then somebody's got to have law and order.
STONEY: Do you remember that?
FRANCES ALLEN: No, I surely don't.
00:30:00STONEY: It's interesting that something as big and violent as that --
FRANCES ALLEN: I know it. [I?] can't remember.
STONEY: -- happening right in here, and it's just not remembered.
FRANCES ALLEN: I know it.
STONEY: Well, the same thing in Winston-Salem. I was born and brought up in
Winston-Salem. I had never heard anything about it, and I was -- by that time, I was, uh, 18 --FRANCES ALLEN: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)
STONEY: -- and had a paper route, and all of that, in Chapel Hill.
FRANCES ALLEN: Yeah.
STONEY: And come back home. And I don't remember it. And then I was reading
the Charlotte Observer the other day -- you know, for 1934 --FRANCES ALLEN: Yeah.
STONEY: -- and right in the middle of a story, it tells about a flying squadron
coming to the Arista Mill, closing down the Arista Mill. And then it said that they went over to the Hanes Knitting Mill, where they were met by public citizens with machine guns, teargas, and other weapons. And the flying squadron was, uh, discouraged, but they said they were coming back the next day with more. I had no idea that this was happening in my hometown.FRANCES ALLEN: I didn't -- well, now, I've got the article in there about
00:31:00the, uh, [Nora Lee Tate?] and them's graduation. They had the pictures of the graduation, and she wrote about all of them.WHITE: Mm-hmm.
FRANCES ALLEN: And she had things in there that I had forgot. And I've still
got it. I don't know whether you ever read it or not.WHITE: No, I didn't.
FRANCES ALLEN: I told about -- well, you ought to read it, and give it to me
sometime. It told about ev-- everybody bought shoes from [Easy Goldwin?], and I had forgot all about him. And, let's see, um --WHITE: Well, now, she was from Burlington, though.
FRANCES ALLEN: Yeah, Nora Lee was.
WHITE: Yeah, yeah, Nora Lee was.
FRANCES ALLEN: But it was telling about different people. And, let's see, um,
[the old drive-in?]. Everybody that had s-- a good date would go to Greensboro to the --WHITE: (inaudible)
FRANCES ALLEN: -- uh, uh -- well, Greensboro -- what was it, the old barbecue
place? It's all in there. Let me go get it for you and let you take it home and read it. (inaudible).WHITE: Oh, [I'm sorry?].
FRANCES ALLEN: I'll get it for you, before you leave, and let you take it
home and read it. You'll get more kick out of it.WHITE: OK, OK. Yeah, she did the same thing I did for our class of the reunion, remember?
00:32:00FRANCES ALLEN: Yeah, but now, this woman wrote all of this stuff, and I had
forgotten all about it. And I asked Eunice, did she see it? And she said, "Yeah."WHITE: Mm-hmm.
FRANCES ALLEN: And said you rode up and down the streets seeing who's dating who.
WHITE: Mm-hmm.
FRANCES ALLEN: Everybody was parked on (inaudible) street.
WHITE: That's par for the course, up to Shady Grove. (laughter)
FRANCES ALLEN: Yeah, Shady Grove.
WHITE: The big [gun?].
FRANCES ALLEN: And -- and, um, yeah.
WHITE: The skating rink.
FRANCES ALLEN: Rode up and down the streets seeing who was dating who. Up and
down Main Street.STONEY: Thank you.
WHITE: All right?
STONEY: So, that's good.
WHITE: Thank you, a lot.
HELFAND: We'll say goodbye.
WHITE: Now, let's see. Now, where, where do you want to go from here now?
STONEY: I think we'd better go up -- maybe over to the village, just
(inaudible) -- because we're gonna --WHITE: OK.
STONEY: -- be running close to time, so --
WHITE: All right, OK.
HELFAND: Do you want to give me those tomatoes now?
WHITE: You want to -- you want (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).
BILL ALLEN: Yeah, that's what I give them to you for.
HELFAND: I know, well, you give them to me. I'm sorry, (inaudible).
BILL ALLEN: Huh?
STONEY: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) finish by 4:00.
WHITE: OK. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)
BILL ALLEN: I thought you were wondering (inaudible).
STONEY: OK, then, we'll do it. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)
HELFAND: OK, well, thank you.
BILL ALLEN: I put four in there, but I didn't know (inaudible) whether you
was married or whether you wasn't. 00:33:00I want to know where you was from.HELFAND: I'm from New York.
BILL ALLEN: New York?
HELFAND: Yes, sir.
BILL ALLEN: You were born in New York?
HELFAND: Yes, sir.
BILL ALLEN: You still don't look like a New Yorker. (laughter)
HELFAND: I don't?
BILL ALLEN: You look like a... You don't look like a Japanese, you know?
HELFAND: I look Japanese?
BILL ALLEN: No.
WHITE: Borrow your phone just a second?
BILL ALLEN: I said [an old man?] -- I've got a, a -- (inaudible) [wedding?]
where he said all his -- everybody over here's all American but me.FRANCES ALLEN: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)
BILL ALLEN: He said I'm the only foreigner (inaudible).
FRANCES ALLEN: Elliott, use this one, it's quieter.
(break in audio)
00:34:00[Silence]
WHITE: What?
F1: Use this one. It's quieter.
WHITE: OK.
F1: (inaudible).
WHITE: [Everyone?] --
(break in audio, 33:39)
WHITE: Now this is the Trollingwood Mill right here. I'm going to go slow. Do
you want to ride down that street?STONEY: Yes.
WHITE: See, this is the old mill tower here.
HELFAND: Can you drive slow?
STONEY: What's happening there now?
WHITE: I, I do not know. I think another -- another company has bought it
ought. It may be still part of Cannon or -- I don't know.STONEY: How is that connected with your father's mill?
WHITE: All right. This was a mill that was, uh, Mr. Trollinger built. And it
was operating as, uh, primarily spinning yarns for other mills. Uh, the mill apparently got into financial difficulties, and, uh, they went to the recei-- 00:35:00into receivership. Uh, it -- my father and Uncle Harvey bought them out, in -- I don't remember. I have the date written in my book back there. Um, sometime in the early 1900s. And they did some weaving down here at that time, but, uh, then it got to the place that it was, um, primarily spinning. And so, they took it over as part of Trevora. And did the -- most of their spinning of yarn down here, to be used, uh, weaving up at, uh, Graham. So this was actually, uh, uh, one of the plants of Trevora.STONEY: Thank you.
M3: Stay rolling here. Different angle. Much better.
STONEY: That tower reminds us of the mill we got in, uh, South Carolina.
M3: Inman.
00:36:00STONEY: Do you know that operation at Inman, Doctor?
WHITE: Which one?
STONEY: Operation at Inman, South Carolina?
WHITE: No, I don't.
STONEY: Well, it's a family-owned mill that's still in the same hands after
almost a gen-- after almost a hundred years.WHITE: Mm-hmm. That -- they are hard to find these days.
STONEY: They are hard to find.
M3: And they have third-generation workers.
STONEY: And they've -- the big thing they did was to invest a lot of the
profits back in modernizing.WHITE: Mm-hmm.
STONEY: And, uh, we shot in that, as an example of, of a really up-to-date mill.
WHITE: Well, that, that's what it would take. And, of course, after the war
-- during the war, you couldn't get anything modernized. Uh, they weren't making textile machinery. They were making planes and tanks and bombs and guns. And then, after the war, uh, the mill had to, um, modernize. And it was a question then -- at that time of investing quite a bit of, uh, capital into, uh, 00:37:00modernization, or sell out. And my Uncle Harvey was the only member of the family left alive, and he was at retirement age. He was in his seventies -- in fact, died a year after. And, uh, the -- Cannon was interested in buying, through [Darren Hogue?], who was the superintendent at the time. And, um, so they, uh, we decided to go ahead and sell out at that time, since none of the other members of the family were interested in running. One was in the insurance business in Greensboro -- uh, uh, [Phil Carlman?]. And my cousin, James White, was a physicist at the University of Tennessee. And I was in medicine. So, with no one else to run it, they thought it best to sell.HELFAND: So where are we going?
00:38:00WHITE: To see Mrs. [Annabelle Schafner?], and hopefully her brother-in-law,
William, who live in White Street, which is -- goes right in back of the mill.STONEY: Who is she?
WHITE: She and her husband both worked at the mill. She didn't work very
long, but her husband worked there a long time. And her brother-in-law, William, worked there. Now, he was in the supply, uh, room, and that was where I worked when I first went to work at the mill in '42.HELFAND: Did they know your daddy?
WHITE: Oh, yes. Oh, yes.
STONEY: That name, Schafner, uh, sounds m-- like Moravians.
WHITE: Uh, there are a lot of Schafners around. I'm not sure of, uh, the
derivation. It's a -- it's a -- it sounds like a German name. And, um, there used to be a, a dam right there that ran the mill. 00:39:00[Silence]
M3: Whoa.
WHITE: And these are the mill houses for down here.
HELFAND: (inaudible).
M3: That was my [cheek that hurt?]. Turn the camera off, Jamie.
WHITE: Three o'clock.
M3: Second shift going in?
WHITE: Second shift going -- well, it's -- yeah. Now, some of them were, uh,
uh, they -- it varied some. I know Trevora ran, uh, 8:00 to 4:00 and 4:00 to 12:00 when they ran two shifts. Some of them ran, uh, 7:00 to 3:00 and 3:00 to 11:00. What, uh, type of tapes do you all use?HELFAND: (inaudible).
M3: Hi8.
STONEY: We're using Hi8.
HELFAND: So these folks that we're going to see -- so, they know your father?
WHITE: Uh, yes, I'm sure they did.
00:40:00STONEY: And that plant to the -- our left?
WHITE: That is, uh -- I'm not sure what that is. That's a modern --
(inaudible) One that's been built since, uh, actually just in the last, um, decade or two.HELFAND: What was it like growing up knowing that your father's industry was
the heart of the community?WHITE: Well, it was -- of course, this was a cotton-mill town. There were three
mills, and ours was just one of them. And, uh, of course it was the county seat, and the lawyers -- uh, a lot of lawyers around. And then, uh, uh, there was a good bit of agricultural business along that, uh, uh, brought in things. And they brought things up to ship out in the -- on the rail-- on the railroad. And, uh, of course, when the textile industry did well, the mill ran double shifts and everything was fine. When it was bad, it was bad. And some of the mills just 00:41:00didn't make it. Then hosiery came in. Uh, started, I guess, in the '30s, and [even went?] further than that now. I guess with pantyhose they're still doing a booming business.HELFAND: But as a kid, growing up, and knowing that your dad ran a mill, you
know, and you could go in and know all those people, what was that like?WHITE: Well, it was -- uh, just like no-- like everybody else I guess. And...
M3: Well, along the lines of you -- you could -- you had a good idea of what
your future was. And it wasn't -- it wasn't working as a doffer.WHITE: Well, that's right. Because I wanted to go into medicine.
HELFAND: Are we here?
WHITE: So, uh, 701. This is it, right here. Uh, wait a minute. Let me back up a bit.
STONEY: It's right across from the mill.
WHITE: Uh-huh.
STONEY: That's --
WHITE: I think it's the one on the corner here.
WHITE: Isn't this 701?
HELFAND: Yes.
M3: Yes, sir.
00:42:00WHITE: OK. Now, I do not know Mrs. Schaf--
(break in audio)
STONEY: -- uh, raw everything was in the South, and how few gardens there were,
and so forth. Uh, by '46, '47, almost everybody was gardening. It was -- it was such a big change.(break in audio)
WHITE: -- Schafner?
ANNABELLE SCHAFNER: (inaudible).
WHITE: Hi, I'm Elliott White.
ANNABELLE SCHAFNER: (inaudible).
WHITE: And, uh, this is Mr. Stoney and Miss Stoney, and this is (inaudible).
ANNABELLE SCHAFNER: Please don't do that.
HELFAND: Oh.
STONEY: OK, (inaudible).
(break in audio)
WHITE: -- aren't they?
ANNABELLE SCHAFNER: [There are?], but the [immediate?] (inaudible) -- I mean,
the ones that, um, um...(break in audio)
00:43:00WHITE: -- and, uh, she had married [Darby May?], who was a real good friend of
mine. And, uh, Darby was a little younger than she.ANNABELLE SCHAFNER: Yeah, I think it was about 13 months difference in them.
WHITE: Yeah, a little bit younger. And, uh, uh -- but we were -- we were all
sorry -- (inaudible) surprised to hear when, when [Frances?] died.ANNABELLE SCHAFNER: Mm.
WHITE: But, uh, I did like -- did like, uh, Frances. I always thought she was
real pretty. She was two years ahead of -- she graduated in (inaudible) class of '38, I believe, wasn't it? In high school -- I think it was.ANNABELLE SCHAFNER: No, hm-mm.
WHITE: It was the same class as my wife [Shirley Owens's?] sister, Pauline --
ANNABELLE SCHAFNER: Hm.
WHITE: Was in there -- was in that same class. Did you ever know the Owens,
lived down on [Melville?] Street?ANNABELLE SCHAFNER: No, I did -- I knew them when I saw them, but I didn't
know them.WHITE: [Missy?] just died last, uh, December --
ANNABELLE SCHAFNER: Well, um --
M3: -- '94. ANNABELLE SCHAFNER: I was a loner. (doorbell rings) I usually,
uh... [Arthur?] was -- that door is hard to... 00:44:00WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Hey, how you doing?
ANNABELLE SCHAFNER: That's William.
STONEY: Come on in.
(break in audio)
ANNABELLE SCHAFNER: (inaudible).
WHITE: Hiya, Boss Man. (laughter)
WILLIAM SCHAFNER: [How you doing?]?
WHITE: Las time I saw you, you were my boss.
WILLIAM SCHAFNER: That's been a long time, isn't it?
WHITE: That was a long time ago. Come on over and sit down.
ANNABELLE SCHAFNER: (inaudible)
WHITE: Let me explain what the situation is. Uh, these folks are from New York,
at NYU.ANNABELLE SCHAFNER: Yeah.
WHITE: They are doing a PBS special on the, uh, textile industry in the South
in the 1930s. And especially about the strike that was in '34, and --WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Mm-hmm.
WHITE: And they're trying to get what each person thinks and remembers about
the things that went on during the strike, and about how mill life was during the Depression and like following the Depression. And so, that's what the situation is. Uh, and so, they wrote a -- they -- well, they had an article in the Charlotte paper, and, uh, anybody that knew anything about the strike -- and I had good memories of it, so I wrote them back, and they got in touch with me. So here we are. (laughter) And (inaudible) is the one that gave us Annabelle's 00:45:00name, about that she would -- uh, that she knew -- she had worked at the mill at about that time, and [would know?]. Now, you, you started working at about that time, didn't you?WILLIAM SCHAFNER: I started working up there in, uh, uh, '35.
WHITE: Thirty-five? That was the year afterwards.
WILLIAM SCHAFNER: After it, mm-hmm.
WHITE: Do you remember anything about the strike?
WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Yeah, well, not, not a whole lot, but, uh, I remember... See,
I finished school in '34, and I went to work, uh, uh, up there the next year.WHITE: Yes.
WILLIAM SCHAFNER: At this plant here. And, uh, I remember there was a lot of
uproar and a lot of people, you know, hanging around the gates and giving out pamphlets and all that kind of stuff, you know?WHITE: Making a lot of noise?
WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Yeah, but, uh, that's the biggest thing. At, uh, uh -- that
I know about, I mean --WHITE: Remember the machine guns sitting up there?
WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Yeah, they had a machine gun sitting up there at the office.
WHITE: Mm-hmm.
WILLIAM SCHAFNER: I remember that.
ANNABELLE SCHAFNER: Well, I don't even remember that. (laughs)
00:46:00WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Yeah, yeah, the -- I remember that. That...
STONEY: Do you remember when the flying squadron came here?
WILLIAM SCHAFNER: No, I don't. Do you, Annabelle?
ANNABELLE SCHAFNER: Hm-mm.
WILLIAM SCHAFNER: No, no.
WHITE: That was sometime in the -- in the fall of, uh, '34, wasn't it?
STONEY: In September, '34.
WHITE: September, yeah, uh-huh.
ANNABELLE SCHAFNER: Not me.
STONEY: Do you remember when they were -- they were striking?
ANNABELLE SCHAFNER: I remember, just vaguely, that, um -- I don't remember
just a whole lot of it.STONEY: What do you remember?
ANNABELLE SCHAFNER: Well, it -- just like I said a while ago, that, uh, I lived
out there and I'm walking up and down the street, then a holler, and then, uh -- and calling people scabs. And, uh, that was just about the height of what I remember.STONEY: Who were the -- those people who came in?
ANNABELLE SCHAFNER: The people that, uh, were not, um -- I guess they were
00:47:00sympathizers, I'd suppose. Because I just knew them as people you'd see on the street, and fall in with the gang that comes along. The -- that's all I remember on it.STONEY: Were they local people?
ANNABELLE SCHAFNER: Yes.
WHITE: but what -- you said that what -- wouldn't -- didn't recognize any
of that were mill workers?ANNABELLE SCHAFNER: No, I didn't -- don't think there was anyone that, uh,
was from the mill. Do you, William?WILLIAM SCHAFNER: No, uh-uh. Not that I know of. But I don't, uh -- I don't
remember a whole lot about it. You know, like I said, I just finished high school, and just a young man. (laughs) And a lot of years have went by since then.WHITE: (inaudible) the girls and stuff. (inaudible). (laughter) But I remember --
WILLIAM SCHAFNER: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).
WHITE: Uh, I know a lot of the workers -- uh, some of them anyhow --
volunteered to go do -- do, uh, guard duty. 00:48:00WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Yeah, that's right. I remember that.
WHITE: And I remember some of them, particularly along this street here, which
is near the power plant.WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Yeah.
WHITE: Because after the Plaid Mill got dynamited, everybody was -- got scared.
WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Yeah.
WHITE: And, uh, I remember my dad coming out and making rounds at night --
WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Yeah.
WHITE: And, uh, they had armed guards out there along by the, uh -- by the
power house.WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Mm-hmm.
WHITE: And, uh, they, uh -- that was the -- well, of course, that was right
along where you used to work right there in the supply thing?WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Yeah, yeah, mm-hmm. I remember you coming over (inaudible)
and you'd have your bicycle, and you'd ride home for dinner. You got 30 minutes for dinner.WHITE: Yeah.
WILLIAM SCHAFNER: You would ride home that bicycle.
WHITE: I'd eat in a hurry and have a date with Shirley on the way back. (laughter)
STONEY: White, you were talking about the -- uh, tell us about the radio?
WHITE: Oh --
WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Elliott, where you living now?
WHITE: In Charlotte.
WILLIAM SCHAFNER: In Charlotte?
WHITE: Mm-hmm. What -- uh, the other lady was telling -- I didn't get --
she's Miss [Fogelman?]? 00:49:00ANNABELLE SCHAFNER: (inaudible) said he has an unlisted number?
WHITE: No, no, no. But the lady that was in here. I didn't get her name.
WILLIAM SCHAFNER: [Margaret?] Fogelman?
ANNABELLE SCHAFNER: Uh, Elizabeth Schafner.
WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Oh, Elizabeth.
WHITE: It was Elizabeth. Anyhow, she said, uh, that, uh -- mentioned a couple
of things that, uh, I didn't know, that, uh, they -- about my dad and her, uh, husband would catch possum and take them down for my dad (inaudible). (laughs)WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Yeah.
WHITE: And, the second was that come World Series time, that my father had one
of the few radios in town -- one of these old jobs with a big old speaker that's --WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Yeah.
WHITE: -- with a horn, and batteries. And he'd move it out on the porch and
then have people come by, and they'd sit on the porch outside and listen to the World Series on the -- on the radio.WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Yeah.
WHITE: And that, uh... Now you played baseball, I believe.
WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Yeah.
WHITE: With the school -- with the mill team.
WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Yeah, it was the mill team in the high school.
WHITE: And I think at the -- didn't [Griffin McClure?] do some pitching?
WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Yeah.
WHITE: But he didn't work at the mill. (laughter)
00:50:00WILLIAM SCHAFNER: No.
WHITE: Now how did he make the team?
WILLIAM SCHAFNER: No, well, you see, they had a few out, outsiders like that,
you see?WHITE: Yeah, uh-huh.
WILLIAM SCHAFNER: And it got a -- the first baseman, now, I -- he f-- he lived
in Hillsborough. Uh, I forgot his name, though, but he was a tall, slim, red-headed fellow. He played first base.WHITE: Because the park was right over here.
WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Yeah, right here. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)
WHITE: Yeah, right over there. And I re-- we, we played football over there sometimes.
WILLIAM SCHAFNER: That's right.
WHITE: The Graham Gorillas. (laughs)
WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Yeah, that's right. Played football there.
WHITE: And, uh, the --
WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Well, the high school played over there some, you know,
before they built that other park over there.WHITE: Yeah, and then, of course, the high school quit the football.
WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Yeah.
WHITE: Can you tell us something about the team? They -- uh, she -- Annabelle
said you played on the team.WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Yeah. I played, uh, let's see -- '33 and '34, my junior
and senior years. I didn't play freshman or sophomore year. And, uh --WHITE: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).
WILLIAM SCHAFNER: -- Jesse Barker, you know, was the coach.
WHITE: Who was?
WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Jesse Barker.
WHITE: Barker.
WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Do you remember him?
WHITE: Uh, no I don't. No I don't.
00:51:00WILLIAM SCHAFNER: He [met?] -- well, he'd (inaudible) -- he was a tall, slim
fellow. He was a pitcher at Elon College.WHITE: Uh-huh.
WILLIAM SCHAFNER: And he taught school -- taught, uh, biology, I believe it
was. And then, uh --WHITE: (inaudible) Reynolds was the coach over at, uh, the high school,
wasn't it?WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Yeah, mm-hmm.
WHITE: Yeah.
WILLIAM SCHAFNER: And then, uh, he left there, you know, and went down to Haw
River, you know -- the principal down there.WHITE: Mm-hmm. If, if I remember, there were some good ballgames over there.
WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Yeah.
WHITE: I remember my dad takes me to the games.
WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Yeah.
STONEY: Now your job was -- what was your job at the mill?
WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Uh, I was supply supervisor.
STONEY: And, White, what was your job?
WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Worked at --
WHITE: I worked under him. (laughter) He was my b-- he was my boss.
STONEY: What was it like to have the boss's son under you?
WILLIAM SCHAFNER: (laughs) Well, it wasn't no problem.
WHITE: That -- I thought I did a pretty good job.
WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Yeah, he was a good boy,
WHITE: At, at, uh -- I had to learn to do things the right way, and he
corrected me a few times. But we'd --WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Mm-hmm.
WHITE: -- counted the picks pretty well, and did the payroll. And we checked
00:52:00out the supplies to the loom fixers, and, um, I enjoyed the summer.STONEY: Could you explain what that means: "counting the picks"? (clock chimes)
WHITE: All right. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Uh, let William explain it.
WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Well, well, they had the -- had the looms, you see, that made
the cloths -- the [rolls?] of cloth. But on the end (inaudible) loom, they what they call a, a pick clock. Well, as the -- every -- the -- every revolution that loom turned, it recorded on, on that clock. And they got -- uh, the weaver got -- received so much pay for every, uh, 100,000 picks, you see? Well, 100,000 picks, you know, that thing was going fast. Didn't take long to get there. So that's how it was, and how the -- a certain price out of, um, you know, different styles of cloth they was weaving. They prayed -- you know, paid a certain price for it, you see, 100,000 picks.STONEY: Well now, we've heard a lot from some of the people about the stretch
out. What did they mean by that? 00:53:00WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Well, f-- what they did, you see -- they -- see, if they had,
uh, uh, one area there that they had maybe 10 employees, in a weaving department. Well, they pay -- on a stretch out, the paid 10 employees and maybe cut it down to 8, and assigned a few more looms to each, each individual (inaudible). And that's -- that's, I don't know it got its name -- stretch out. (laughs) But, I mean, that's what they called the stretch out, (inaudible).WHITE: I think it got -- in other words they had to do more work. But they also
got paid more for it.WILLIAM SCHAFNER: (inaudible), that's right, because (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).
WHITE: It was piecework. It was piecework.
WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Yeah, they was running more looms, you see?
WHITE: Mm-hmm. And it depended on what (inaudible) -- now, we were running, at
that time -- and correct me -- we were running Osnaburg for making --WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Yeah, [that's right?].
WHITE: And that was three -- three-and-a-half ounce, wasn't it? Something
like that.WILLIAM SCHAFNER: I believe it was, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).
WHITE: And then we were running 11-and-a-half-ounce herringbone twill for
making fatigues.WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Yeah.
WHITE: And then there were a few looms, and these were the -- these were the
newer looms that they used to make serge.WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Yeah.
00:54:00WHITE: And that was the suiting. That was the only one that (inaudible) gave
any profit, because the other was all going for the war effort. Osnaburg was for sandbags.WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Yeah, yeah.
WHITE: And the Osnaburg -- you could run -- a weaver could run 10 looms of Osnaburg.
WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Oh, yeah, 10 or 12 looms (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).
WHITE: Yeah, well, they'd run five of herringbone twill.
WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Yeah.
WHITE: Uh, three to five of those, because every time you (inaudible) those
drop [eyes?], they'd drop down and stop the loom. And then you'd have to --STONEY: Yeah, the reason I was --
WHITE: -- go in and tie the thread.
STONEY: The reason I was asking about that stretch out was that one of the
reasons given in the paper -- I've been reading the old Charlotte Observers. One of the reasons that the strikers were giving for striking was they said that they were getting stretched out too much, and having to work too hard.WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I don't know, (inaudible).
WHITE: Well, they also got paid more for it, because it was piecework.
WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Yeah.
WHITE: Which I think is a more equitable thing than timework anyhow. They got
-- and you had -- there was a formula for overtime. So if you worked in your overtime shifts, you got your piecework plus -- and a -- plus halftime more. So 00:55:00it was figured out. That's what -- that's what we did (laughter) at least.STONEY: Well, one of the fellows who -- over in Kannapolis was telling me that
he could jimmy those pick clocks. Is that -- was that possible?WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Well, I don't know now. I don't -- I don't know that
much about it. I don't know whether they could. I, I don't much believe he could. But, uh, like I said --WHITE: They got way out of line. I mean, they may do 20 picks more or something
like that.WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Yeah, but see, they kept, uh -- they knew about what a loom,
you know, would do at, uh, uh -- as maximum, you see. And if they got, like, (inaudible) up maybe 20 for 40, uh, picks more, then as a max, they knew something was wrong and a loom fixer would come check that clock and fix it. But I don't know whether they could, uh...WHITE: Well, as far as I know, I never saw it. But I didn't work very long,
but anyway -- but as far as I was there, I didn't know -- ever notice anyone -- uh, anything being out of line the whole time.WILLIAM SCHAFNER: No.
STONEY: Maybe he was just bragging. (laughter)
00:56:00WHITE: No, no, well, see, he worked there a lot longer than I did. I just
worked the summer.STONEY: No, what I mean is that maybe this fellow was just bragging.
WHITE: Well, it might be.
STONEY: Yeah, he --
WHITE: And, of course, uh, you know, there are people who can fix anything --
who can jimmy anything.STONEY: Yeah.
WHITE: Uh, you can get into Fort Knox if you really try hard enough, but... (laughter)
STONEY: Mrs. Schafner, what did you do in the factory?
WILLIAM SCHAFNER: I worked at --
ANNABELLE SCHAFNER: I was a spinner. But, uh, my husband was a, a doffer. And
you make the, the yarn that, uh, that makes the cloth.WHITE: Now, they did some spinning here.
ANNABELLE SCHAFNER: Yes.
WHITE: And -- but they did a lot of spinning down at Trollingwood.
ANNABELLE SCHAFNER: Well, the -- at Trollingwood, they made the warp.
WHITE: Uh-huh.
ANNABELLE SCHAFNER: And, um, then, uh --
WHITE: Yeah, then they'd (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).
ANNABELLE SCHAFNER: But they put that on a -- on a reel, and, um, they brought
it up here. And then they would -- uh, Mr. Schafner -- he'd -- uh, they called [that thing?] the smash room. 00:57:00WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Yeah.
ANNABELLE SCHAFNER: And they run it and put it on another reel, um -- I don't
know, reel is probably not the right word for it.WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Beam.
WHITE: Beam -- beams.
WILLIAM SCHAFNER: (inaudible).
ANNABELLE SCHAFNER: And, uh, then they put the beam on the, the loom. And, um,
run it through the heddles and all the reeds and all that stuff. And then those -- I made the yarn that run through there, and made it tight, uh, to make the cloth.WHITE: Mm-hmm.
STONEY: How did you like working in the mill?
ANNABELLE SCHAFNER: Well, it was just one of those things that you have to do.
(laughs) It was a means for the end.STONEY: Some people have told us that they enjoyed it, and some people said
they'd never do it again. I was just wondering...ANNABELLE SCHAFNER: Well, I liked it as a -- as a whole, but I liked to stay at
00:58:00home and keep house. And after Arthur came out of the service, he wanted me to stay at home, and we had -- didn't have a family, and so then we had a, a daughter after he came home. And so, that, that made it, um --WHITE: That -- that's reasonable.
ANNABELLE SCHAFNER: -- better to be at home.
HELFAND: I think that someone's at the backdoor. (inaudible) maybe you want
to get it. Someone's at the backdoor.WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Let's see.
ANNABELLE SCHAFNER: I'll, I'll go (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).
(break in audio)
WHITE: (inaudible). But he [died?].
WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Yeah, I remember when (inaudible) you know, [playing ball?].
And it was an open field, (inaudible). Used to have a [gate house?], watch us play ball. (laughter) He was a lot different than --STONEY: Oh, good, come in.
WILLIAM SCHAFNER: -- (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).
00:59:00F4: Hi. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) I don't either.
WHITE: (inaudible).
F4: What is this for anyway? Tell us something about it.
WHITE: It's for a special on, uh, the textile industry in the South during
the 1930s, during the Depression and immediately following, particularly about that strike they had in '34.F4: Well, but I don't remember much about that strike. Do you William? (laughter)
ANNABELLE SCHAFNER: Well, they was telling about machine guns up there, and I
don't remember them.WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Yeah, (inaudible). Yeah, it was. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)
F4: I -- well, I (inaudible) I didn't tell -- I remember hearing them talk
about. I didn't see it, but...WHITE: Did our -- want to tell them about Dad and the baseball game, that you
just told me in there?WILLIAM SCHAFNER: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).