Dr. Elliott White, William Schafner, Annabelle Schafner, and Margaret Fogleman Interview

 DR. ELLIOTT WHITE: It was mighty nice. Mighty nice of you, really. Yes. Now tell them about -- you were telling about the ball game.

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Well, I was telling about Mr. White -- he used to come out there, and his daddy, he'd come out there on the maple tree there in front of the mill office, and in his chair, and sit and watch us play ball. We was about 12, 14 years old and there's a big field out there in front of the office where we'd play ball. Oh, he'd got a big thing -- he'd holler at us and go on, but he -- he really liked it.

STONEY: Now, we've been trying to find a picture of -- of Elliot's father with the team. Do you have anything like that?

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: No, I sure don't.

WHITE: Do you have a picture of the team, by any chance?

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: No, sure don't. Don't have anything, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).

WHITE: See, people didn't take many pictures back in those days.

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: They didn't, like they do. Like they do now.

ANNABELLE SCHAFNER: They couldn't afford it.

WHITE: That's right. And the equipment wasn't very good. Well, it was --

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: No, that's right.

WHITE: The film was 35 cents a roll, and --

MARGARET FOGLEMAN: And the other thing was -- what I meant -- when -- we didn't make pictures then, would be black and white and faded.

WHITE: That's right, that's right.

FOGLEMAN: That's what I was trying to think of.

WHITE: And didn't nobody make -- nobody made inside pictures then.

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Oh, no, didn't have no flash.

WHITE: Didn't have flash, and so it -- and didn't have fast film, so you had to have a nice sunny day to get out and take pictures. You waited for the sunny day and then went out and took a -- posed somebody and took a picture. And now you can take pictures about anything.

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Yeah, that's right.

STONEY: Could you tell us about the baseball again?

FOGLEMAN: My husband played, Sherman Layton, but I don't know -- I mean, William, do you know what I'm talking about?

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: No, I just told them about all that. No, we played, we always had a pretty good team.

FOGLEMAN: But this was -- I mean, they played out here in this field, and I'd be always --

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Played Swepsonville and Alamance and --

FOGLEMAN: -- sold the -- run the concession stand, and sold the drinks and all that kind of stuff. And so I went to all the ball games, 'cause it's just fun, you know? 00:02:00Something to do.

WHITE: Did Tom Zachary ever come over to any of the games?

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Not that I know of.

WHITE: Yeah. He has the dubious distinction of being the guy who threw the sixtieth ball to -- sixtieth home run ball to Babe Ruth.

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Yep.

WHITE: He, he lived down the road here a piece.

STONEY: What about the radio that, uh, Dr. White's father had?

FOGLEMAN: The radio? I don't know anything about that. What is -- what about the radio?

WHITE: That, that -- he had a radio next -- uh, for the ball games, that, uh, he put it out on the porch when the World Series came by, and he had one of the few radios around that could pick up with a lot of squeaks and squawks. And people'd come down and so -- and sit on the porch, and, and he'd have it where they can listen to, to the World Series.

ANNABELLE SCHAFNER: I've heard all the tell about them going down in and your daddy, and all of them going down and -- and listening to the ball games.

FOGLEMAN: Well, he was a little bit older than I am, so. (laughter)

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: You remember Jim Holt, you know, that run the store out there?

WHITE: Oh, yes, very well. Very well, uh-huh.

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Well, you know, he had a -- had a radio too out there in the store. We'd go out there on Saturdays and Sunday, you know, during the World Series, and listen to the ball game. You know, we'd have -- store would be full of people.

WHITE: We showed you the store -- between the regular plant and the finishing plant.

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: It's about gone now. (laughter)

WHITE: Yeah, that was a little general store. In fact, that was the only store this side of town, right?

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Yeah.

WHITE: No, there was one up at Sydney.

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Yeah, one up at Sydney.

WHITE: Right up on the corner there.

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Yeah. Mr. An-- Andrews, I believe, ran it.

WHITE: Yeah. That was Buddy Andrews's dad, wasn't it?

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Mmm, no.

WHITE: Or was it? I don't -- no, no, he lived down in --

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: No, no, no.

WHITE: No, he lived down in Pumpkin Hill. Pumpkin.

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Yeah, yeah. Right over there.

FOGLEMAN: Pumpkin Hill, where's that?

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: It's a little bit by Oneida.

WHITE: Well, behind Oneida -- Oneida Mill Village out there called Pumpkin Hill.

ANNABELLE SCHAFNER: Don't you remember?

WHITE: Cowboy Bill from Pumpkin Hill.

ANNABELLE SCHAFNER: I didn't know about Pumpkin Hill, but I heard them talk about it. I 00:04:00heard all the tell about who lived over in Pumpkin Hill.

WHITE: Well, that's what they always called it, and it's just a -- just a section of the [town is that?] -- Oneida Mill Village behind Oneida, and back, you know, where Branch Hill Store was.

FOGLEMAN: Well, were they the ones that worked -- that -- did they work at Whites Mill?

WHITE: No, they worked at Oneida from over there.

FOGLEMAN: Right.

WHITE: And of course, Sydney folks up there worked at Sydney. And -- the Pumpkin Hill folks were, well, Oneida.

FOGLEMAN: Yeah, my grandmother worked up here, and she -- I've heard her tell about she took her -- she took two children to work with her -- now, that was before the thirties, that she took the children to work with her. You know, that was before my day too, but I did work until --

WHITE: It's getting back to that now.

FOGLEMAN: Ten hours -- (laughter) ten hours a day, when I was right out of high school.

JUDITH HELFAND: What'd you say about your grandma? I didn't hear.

FOGLEMAN: What?

HELFAND: I didn't quite hear you. What'd you say about your grandma?

FOGLEMAN: She went to -- I mean, she worked and took her children to work with her, she said. She was a real tiny woman, and she took the children -- my mother couldn't remember that -- she played around my grandmother's looms, while she was weaving. And think how dangerous that is.

WHITE: I was just thinking, my gosh.

FOGLEMAN: Whoo.

WHITE: The way those things go. But it's getting to be now that people are taking their children to work too.

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Yeah.

WHITE: So it's coming back to that. (laughter)

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Yeah. (laughter)

WHITE: They don't -- they don't -- they don't around a loom, though.

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Kind of like something in style. They're coming back. But --

HELFAND: Dr. White, can you tell them about when you were a little boy and you'd hide in your father's car?

WHITE: Yes. My dad would go home for lunch, and he'd take a quick nap right after lunch. And I always knew when he was going to get up. So right before he'd get up I'd go hide in the car and hide down behind the back seat, and wouldn't say a word. And he'd drive over -- drive in the mill, and -

HELFAND: Excuse me, you know what, you should clear your throat as this car is 00:06:00going away, and then you should start that story all over again, OK?

STONEY: Because we're getting a bad [truck?].

WHITE: OK, all right.

HELFAND: So take a -- yeah.

WHITE: (clears throat) My voice is about to sort of give out a little bit.

HELFAND: Thank you.

WHITE: But, uh, my father would go home for lunch, and after lunch he would take a nap, and would -- I'd know about when he'd wake up, so I'd crawl into the backseat of the car and lay down behind the backseat, behind the front seat. And he'd come out, get in the car, and drive back to the mill, park in the parking lot and walk in. And then I'd hop up out of the backseat and walk in. "Surprise!" (laughter) And, uh, I could see Allan Tate now, and Laura May Holt -- oh. And Dolly Moore. (laughter)

FOGLEMAN: Well, you know, you used to be -- I can remember that you was a little picky little boy, you know.

WHITE: Oh, I tell you, I was a -- I was a -- I was a, a real character. (laughter) But my dad would go in, and, uh, he'd pick up the phone and dial home and say -- he would dial, he'd call operator, going home, and says, "[Anna-Mae?], don't worry, he's here with me." (laughter) Because he knew she'd been looking for me. And then he'd -- I'd stay there and make a 00:07:00wreck out of the office, and then Dad would take me when he made his rounds in the mill in the afternoon. And we'd go by in all the departments, so I probably have seen you all -- well, you weren't -- you know, no, no, that was before that time. But, uh, but we'd go around all the departments and stop and talk to all the people, and find out who -- you know, how you feeling, and hey, how's work going, and that sort of thing, and then we'd go --

FOGLEMAN: I remember him.

WHITE: -- to the John Hoke store, the Jim Hoke store, and John Hoke was down in the South Glen. And I'd get a, uh, Eskimo Pie, and then go on down to the finishing mill and finish making rounds down there, and then come on back up to the office. Uncle Harvey didn't leave the office much.

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Nah, he stayed in there all day.

WHITE: He stayed in there all the time. And Dad -- I think his desk was piled this high with junk, and I don't think he liked to go in there. No, he liked to spend more time out in the mill, where the people were.

ANNABELLE SCHAFNER: Well, he was more a person-to-person person than Mr. Harvey was.

WHITE: He was, he was.

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Yeah.

FOGLEMAN: Well, Mr. Harvey White was a very dignified man. Very. I remember that about him, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Well, he didn't like sports just like -- like just we all did. He liked -- he liked sports.

WHITE: Well, [Dad hiked?] -- he hunted and fished, he played football for Carolina --

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: His daddy used to go hunting with him. I mean, they'd go hunting together.

WHITE: Yeah. And he -

FOGLEMAN: I told you about my daddy catching possums and taking them to [him?]. (laughter)

HELFAND: What was that?

FOGLEMAN: Possums. My daddy caught possums and took them to Mr. Will White. He does not remember that, he said, but he did.

WHITE: I don't remember the possums. I don't think I have [A?].

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: (laughter) Put a (inaudible) on that way. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)

WHITE: I don't remember that. He liked pickled pigs' feet and he liked, uh, crackling bread, and he liked, uh, clabber and buckwheat cakes and, um, just about anything.

FOGLEMAN: My daddy thought he was really tops.

WHITE: Well, I did too. I just adored him.

STONEY: What did your daddy do in the mill?

FOGLEMAN: He ran a tie-in machine where you tie the warps. That's what I remember that he did.

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Yeah, that's right.

FOGLEMAN: I filled magazines right out of high school for 20 cents an hour. That was in the '30s, you know. I asked for a job hoping I wouldn't get it, but I did, so -- (laughter)

WHITE: Well, when I started working, I made 35 cents an hour. That was in '30 -- that was in '42.

FOGLEMAN: Oh, well, times have changed.

WHITE: They -- yeah. (laughter)

FOGLEMAN: My husband died in '42, so it's been a long time, 50 years, since he died, so.

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Yeah, long time.

STONEY: But you made 20 cents -- do you remember what year that was?

FOGLEMAN: Must have been '32 -- '32, I think. Wouldn't it be '32?

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: I imagine it would -- I don't know what --

FOGLEMAN: Thirty-one or two.

STONEY: And after that, you remember when Roosevelt got elected, there was a big change. Do you remember that change?

WHITE: Mm-hmm.

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Yeah.

FOGLEMAN: Oh, eight hours, I remember that. Well, I never worked 10 hours --

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Forty hours a week, eight hours a day.

FOGLEMAN: -- but that that little bit then, I was married and had a baby, so I didn't go back -- I didn't work anymore for a long time.

WHITE: Well, the minimum wage was 35 cents an hour. Because that's what I was paid.

FOGLEMAN: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

WHITE: In fact, I have the receipt from my first paycheck at home.

FOGLEMAN: Was there a minimum -- was there a minimum then back in those days, they --

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: No, I don't think it --

ANNABELLE SCHAFNER: Well, it was after --

WHITE: It was -- it was in '42. So it was 35 cents an hour. I saved up enough that summer to take a trip to New York. (laughter)

FOGLEMAN: That was when you could buy an ice cream cone for a nickel.

WHITE: Yup, and a trip -- and a ticket to New York was $35.

STONEY: But then when Roosevelt came in, it was a big difference. You got eight hours instead of 10 and 11.

FOGLEMAN: Eight hours, and --

STONEY: You remember that?

ANNABELLE SCHAFNER: Yes.

FOGLEMAN: -- that's when they started Social Security, too, didn't they?

STONEY: Yeah, that's right.

FOGLEMAN: I think.

WHITE: And it -- and the wage went up, because minimum wage was 35 cents an hour.

STONEY: Yeah. Well, I'm particularly interested in this, because it must have made such a difference to women, if instead of working 10 or 11 hours you had, uh, you had eight hours. Could you --

ANNABELLE SCHAFNER: Well, um, I -- as near as I can remember, I'm not positive about that, but I don't think that I made but five dollars a week until after the, uh, Roosevelt came in. And then I made $12.

FOGLEMAN: (laughter)

STONEY: How'd you feel about that?

ANNABELLE SCHAFNER: Oh, I was rich. Of course, then the mill just about shut down two days every other week, and so -- and just gone in debt for new furniture. I just got married and -- that was awful.

FOGLEMAN: They were trying days. When I finished high school, they talked about us not having a banquet -- you know, they always have a junior/senior banquet. 00:12:00And we almost didn't get to have ours -- Irving Williams was talking about th-- they didn't want to let us have it, because of the economy. But we did. We had one, such as it was.

WHITE: Well, we did too, and we enjoyed it. But --

STONEY: Well, I'm --

ANNABELLE SCHAFNER: You enjoyed it and appreciated it more than they do now.

WHITE: Oh, yeah, and w-- and we made our own fun. We had a good time. We had -- and at the little old school up there, everybody in town went together, and, uh, we all had a big time.

FOGLEMAN: That's the way we used to.

WHITE: Mm-hmm.

HELFAND: I won-- did you all ever get to sit like this with, um, Dr. White's dad?

FOGLEMAN: Now, what?

WHITE: Probably not in the home. But, uh, uh, (audio distortion) he visited the mill.

HELFAND: Wait, wait, wait, wait, I'm getting some static. Can you -- would you mind saying that again?

WHITE: I said probab-- probably not in the home, because it would -- I mean, it 00:13:00was too much to go around. Now, I know, uh, if somebody was sick, I think my dad would go by.

FOGLEMAN: And if anybody was sick and they didn't have the money, Mr. White -- they would lend people money, because I remember hearing my dad talk about that, that they can go to Mr. Will and Mr. Will would see that you got the money; then you paid it back by the week. So.

WHITE: I mean, I remember we all -- all went to the same school. Remember [Ural Robinson?].

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Oh, yeah, yeah.

WHITE: Yeah, he was killed in the war.

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Yup.

WHITE: I remember meeting him in the first grade.

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: (laughter)

WHITE: Then we -- after we came out, Jack Holt and myself were out here, playing in the mill yard one afternoon. My mother had something to do, and so she wanted my dad to keep -- he says, "Come out and play in the yard." And Ural was out -- outside, and I, I recognized him and, and so on.

STONEY: Well, we've been talking -- we've been talking with, uh, textile workers and former textile workers all over the South. And one word that -- one phrase that we've heard very often is, "linthead." Have you ever heard 00:14:00textile people called lintheads?

FOGLEMAN: (laughter) I never heard it called that.

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Well, I have. But the reason -- reason for that was, you see, in the carding department, wh-- uh, where the yarn, you know, was carded, there was always a lot of lint flying around. You know, well, you see, you didn't -- you'd be bareheaded without a hat or a cap on, and some of that lint would get in your hair. You'd come out, some of them, you know, without combing their hair, and they'd call them linthead. That's how it started.

WHITE: That -- that figures. They'd look like George Washington.

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Yeah. (laughter)

STONEY: Now, some people resented that. I just wondered if it was any--

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, a lot of people did, a lot of people resented being called that, you see.

ANNABELLE SCHAFNER: A lot depend on who. You could go down the street and one person say it and you -- it wasn't anything, but if it was a snob from the other side of town said that, you resented it right much.

WHITE: "When you call me that, Mister, smile." (laughter)

ANNABELLE SCHAFNER: Well --

WHITE: Owen Wister.

ANNABELLE SCHAFNER: -- then there was, um, a difference. People worked on a cotton mill, they were -- uh, the people that worked in the stores, they thought they were a little bit better than the people worked in a cotton mill. And they -- they were snobs. And so you resented the snobs looking down on you when you was just as good as they were.

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Makes sense with that.

M: But they'd never not take your money back. People in the stores, they'd act like snobs, but did they ever refuse to take your money?

ANNABELLE SCHAFNER: Oh, no.

WHITE: No. (laughter)

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: No, they couldn't do that.

WHITE: Well, you know, that's -- talking about jobs, every job in itself of honest work is worthwhile. And it's -- and there's no -- there's no stigma 00:16:00to anybody who does an honest job and does his best at it. And whether -- no matter what you do, if it's honest and you do your job and you do good work, then that's fine. Now, if, uh, all of the garbage collectors and all of the lawyers would disappear on the same day, who would be missed the most and the quickest?

ANNABELLE SCHAFNER: The garbage men.

WHITE: (laughter) They sure but would. They sure but would.

STONEY: Well, so much of this is, I suppose, the way you're raised. I was born and raised in Western Salem, and my father was a preacher part of the time and a would-be businessman part of the time. And so we were kind of -- wanted to be middle class, but not quite making it. And I remember that I was kind of raised to 00:17:00look down on the people who worked at Hanes and Arista Mills. Now, my father never said that. Where it came from, I don't know. It was just kind of around me.

ANNABELLE SCHAFNER: Well, though, your friends and associates, they kind of resented the lower class. And you wanted to be up with the bigger ones.

WHITE: I never got that feeling, though.

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: No, I never --

FOGLEMAN: I never really felt lower class either. Didn't do that to me. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)

WHITE: No, no, no, we didn't, and, I mean --

FOGLEMAN: And I felt honest, if you hold your head high and go on --

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: A person is a person for who he was, not for what he did. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)

HELFAND: What'd you say?

FOGLEMAN: If you hold your head high and go on, you don't have to have that feeling. I felt like I was as good as anybody. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)

WHITE: OK, well, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Yeah, yeah, been a long time. Good to see you.

WHITE: Good to see you. You know you look like Buddy Andrews? Did you know that?

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: No. (laughter)

WHITE: Very much like Buddy. We see Buddy a lot because we have our place there.

STONEY: Elliot, how much older -- is he older than you?

WHITE: Yes, mm-hm.

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Oh, yeah.

WHITE: Oh, yeah. I was class of '40, he was class of '34.

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Thirty-four.

WHITE: He's six years older than I. Five years older, because I got a late start. He's five years older than I am. So you would be, uh, about 74.

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Seventy-five.

WHITE: Seventy-five. I'll be -- well, I'll be 70 in -- this month.

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Yeah.

STONEY: When was the last time you saw each other?

WHITE: Forty-two.

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Uh, (laughter) I don't know when you left -- when you quit working out at that (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).

WHITE: Forty-two -- 1942. Summer of '42.

STONEY: And you could rec-- and you could recognize each other?

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Oh, yeah. Well, what -- I know him.

FOGLEMAN: He was a little blond boy when I knew him, and now he's blond again.

STONEY: (laughter)

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: (laughter)

WHITE: I was going to say, I haven't turned white, I'm just platinum blond. I haven't turned white at all. (laughter)

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Oh, I think about, you know, all of you and all of them --

WHITE: Yup.

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) anybody.

WHITE: I think of Sam Jones.

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: All of [them as I seen you?].

WHITE: Remember Sam Jones? You know, his dad was in the power plant.

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

WHITE: [Turn power?], Toby Jones?

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

WHITE: And, you know, he was working over there that summer, and we were working the second shift. And, uh, after we get off at midnight, we'd get on our bicycles, and we'd ride way down to [Hanford?] Brickyard, and all the way 00:19:00around. In the moonlit night, nobody don't think those gas rations. Nope, not a single car on the road. We'd right our moon-- our bicycles 15, 20 miles after we got off from work.

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Well, I think (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).

WHITE: Glad to see you. Thank you for coming (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).

FOGLEMAN: That was when they had -- that was when we had energy.

WHITE: Oh, we appreciate it, we appreciate it so much.

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: We'll see you later. Take care.

WHITE: All right, son.

WILLIAM SCHAFNER: Well, Marge, we'll see you. Annabelle, we'll see you. Yup, I'm going out.

FOGLEMAN: Well, is this session ended?

WHITE: Well, my wife will be upset if I don't get back soon.

STONEY: Yup.

WHITE: Do you -- did you ever know Shirley? Shirley Owens?

FOGLEMAN: Well, I don't know her so well but I know Ms. -- I knew Ms. Owens real well.

WHITE: Ms. [Bessie?], she was a card, wasn't she?

FOGLEMAN: Oh, well, she really was one.

WHITE: Oh. And, uh --

FOGLEMAN: I have a plant, a shrub that she rooted for me, and it's just growing up a storm.

WHITE: Oh, we do too. We do have several.

FOGLEMAN: And she'd -- she'd tell me about Shirley telling her do this and do that, and you said, "Shirley, shut your mouth." So she's been taking pretty good care of herself to live this long.

WHITE: She did, she did.

FOGLEMAN: Oh, wow, that was --

WHITE: Oh, she was a character. But it's crazy about -- we were crazy about her.

FOGLEMAN: She was real sweet.

WHITE: And, uh, but Shirley and I been living in Charlotte now for, what, 37 years.

FOGLEMAN: You still practicing or retired?

WHITE: No, I been retired three years. (clears throat) It's too much of a hassle.

STONEY: OK.

M: Well, you give free advice.

WHITE: OK, well, thank you so much, Miss Annabelle. You've been such a help to us.

STONEY: Thank you. Thank you.

FOGLEMAN: My grandson's just starting out.

ANNABELLE SCHAFNER: Well, thank you, and, uh, I don't think I knew anything at all.

STONEY: Ma'am, your grandson's a doctor?

WHITE: Oh, you do. You do.

FOGLEMAN: Yeah, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).

WHITE: And --

ANNABELLE SCHAFNER: I'm so forgetful.

WHITE: Well, you know, the more you think and talk about something, the more it comes back. And, uh, we appreciate all, uh, you know, of everybody with what they've done, because it's just been such a pleasure -- uh, experience talking with folks that can remember back that far.

FOGLEMAN: And (audio distortion; difficult to decipher) get this thing back together -- [block pics?] of history.

WHITE: Yes, uh-huh. And, uh, it'll -- well, it'll be awhile before it comes out. I don't know when, but they're just going all over the South, and 00:21:00they've been in Gastonia, and, uh --

STONEY: (yelling indistinctly)

WHITE: -- they just happened to -- because I remember something about the strike that came down, and we've been trying to get them things that (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -

STONEY: Want to get you -- want to speak to you just a minute.

WHITE: -- was a classmate of ours, and just a doll of a person. Oh, isn't she nice?

FOGLEMAN: She's a sweet person.

WHITE: Oh, she is. I -- I liked her in high school, she was so sweet. And, uh, she and Shirley and Jack Holt and Sam [Warren?] were the four officers of the (inaudible) plants. And we gonna have them all down to the shore next month, for -- (audio badly distorted and indecipherable)

ANNABELLE SCHAFNER: (audio still distorted; transcript is approximate) Are you, uh, going up to (inaudible) this -- a sample of this?

WHITE: (inaudible) Well, (laughter) (inaudible) I don't know. But, um, uh, I'd like to say -- I don't know what.

ANNABELLE SCHAFNER: Well.

HELFAND: We'll let you know when this is -- we'll absolutely let you know 00:22:00when this is going to be on, and all that. But, you know, the reason why we got you (inaudible) tell her about that article (inaudible).

WHITE: And what happened was, that article came out of the Charlotte (inaudible). And, uh, these folks were going to do this thing on trying to get the history of the thing, do a special on the history of the textile industry in the South, particularly in the '30s, particularly around the time of the big strike. And so they wanted anybody who had any remembrances (distortion stops) or knew anybody who knew anything about it to get in touch with them. Well, I just sort of sat down and wrote them a little letter, told them that I remembered about the strike, and said, well, well, they got in touch with me again, and then they came down and we talked a bit a couple of weeks ago, and then they said they wanted to come down here and see. They didn't -- couldn't find much infor-- much information about [Trevora?]. And so I told them that I'd meet them down here, and we went down to the old house, they 00:23:00went in through it, and, uh, the old Williamson house too, and the courthouse and the Confederate statue, and [Raina McClure?] and this f-- and the, uh, all the other stuff around town. And then we went down and talked to Bill Allen -- do you know him? Mary Francis Holt. He lives down [Trollingwood?]. He worked for [Trollingwood?] plant. And we talked with him for a while, and with Francis, and then, of course, I called Oneida Ruth, and she gave me your name, and it's -- it sounded just perfect. So luckily, not only just you, but we got her and we got William, which I think is real good. And I think this is, uh, uh, brings back a lot of memories, I've got a lot of information about what was going on at that time. So we do appreciate it so much.

ANNABELLE SCHAFNER: Well I'm sure we would like to, to see what you make of it.

WHITE: Yeah. They -- and like I say, they'll let you know when it's going to be on.

ANNABELLE SCHAFNER: Oh, it will be on, on, uh, TV?

WHITE: It'll be on PBS. One of the public stations.

M: What we have is we're getting everybody's name and address who we interview, and we'll send out -- everybody will get, like, a postcard listing when it's going to be on in their area kind of thing.

HELFAND: So George'll take your address.

M: And ma'am, you said your grandson's, uh, just getting started as a doctor now?

FOGLEMAN: Yes. Just -- he's, um -- he's had his medical training, and he is a doctor now. He's been in Japan for two years and he's gone --

WHITE: He's with the service?

FOGLEMAN: Well, he was -- um, his dad paid for his first-year medical school, and then he got helped through the Navy.

WHITE: OK. I understand.

FOGLEMAN: But the le-- next three, and now he's been paying the Navy back, so he just has more over here.

WHITE: That's reasonable. That's reasonable.

FOGLEMAN: Oh, he's -- they enjoyed Japan, though, and their parents lived in Holland, so it's been -- the family's been all around.

WHITE: Well, that's educational.

FOGLEMAN: And I went to Holland, and I was thrilled to death to go spend three weeks.

STONEY: That's a beautiful place, isn't it?

FOGLEMAN: Oh, it really is.

M: Did you go to the mini- that little miniature city near the Tivoli?

FOGLEMAN: The what?

M: There's a little -- there's a couple of little, uh -- there's a couple little things there of a miniature town that they built. It's, uh, it's a big attraction there.

FOGLEMAN: The what? I don't --

WHITE: At Tivoli.

(lots of audio distortion, cutting in and out)

HELFAND: No, the tower. As he walks out?

M: Yeah.

WHITE: I wish I could [behave?]

(audio gets very distant and distorted, inaudible)

M: Now, is there anybody in this town you don't know?

WHITE: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Listen, I've been away from this town for 50 years. 00:26:00(audio distorted) (inaudible) [boss man?].

M: Well, I just -- I found it sort of interesting that there doesn't seem to be much of a separation between owner's family and the rest of them. It's like --

WHITE: Oh, no, no, no. It wasn't --

M: Or was that your father basically making sure that you didn't think, you know --

WHITE: Well, I'm basically -- I don't -- I, I basically don't have much prejudice. And, uh, and, and basically, uh, uh, I mean, people are people. I'm ju-- like I said, no matter what you do, if you scrub the streets -- if you scrub the streets and do a good job at it, and, and, uh, behave yourself, then that's fine. You're doing a success.

M: Well, I just remember when I was in high school, I -- I started to date the, the daughter of the man that I worked for.

WHITE: Uh-huh.

M: And he came up to me one day, he said, "I want you to keep the hell away from my daughter, because I want her to deal with men, people that are better than you."

WHITE: Then he's a -- he's -- you're better than he is already.

M: Right. And it seems to me, like --

WHITE: Then you're better than he is already.

M: -- my father and all the other people made, you know, made sure it's everybody's the same.

WHITE: That, that's -- then you're better than he is already. So I think that -- I mean, let the circumstances speak for themselves.

M: OK.

WHITE: I mean, the -- as far as I was concerned, there was no, there was no discrimination or, or prejudice at all. And, uh, I liked -- I had friends that were, uh, that, uh, did everything.

M: OK.

WHITE: So, [and others?], but we'd all get together, played football together and played, uh, went up into the sho-- soda shop and danced together and, and all that sort of thing. And it was -- and it was just great. It was just lovely. Wonderful, wonderful times. (break in audio; distortion) -- the young flowers up, and I put out traps to catch them and I've been deporting them to, uh, uh, places distant enough where they can't find their way back. And --

M: Deporting them, you said?

WHITE: Yes.

M: You're making them sound like Haitians.

WHITE: Well, uh, then I give them another, uh, more expansive environment in which to pursue their livelihood. Let's put it that way. (laughter)

M: You've been reading those federal guidebooks again.

WHITE: But, uh, anyhow, I take them about three, four miles away. But twice I caught a big, fat possum that completely filled the trap.

M: Yeah. They do not like it either.

WHITE: They didn't like it at all. But then they didn't want to get out. I took them to church. Let them out at church. (laughter)

M: What kind of bad Southern joke is that? Come on, spit it out.

WHITE: It's not. The church is about five miles from where, where we live, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) --

M: Oh, I thought -- I thought you were acting upon the providence of the Lord to coax the possum out of the cage.

WHITE: Well, it so happened that there happened to be Saturday nights that I caught them, and so we had to deport them. So to save a trip I just put them in the back of the car, and before we went into church I went -- I let them out. And the woods are, are right across the street from the church.

M: But you've never had possum pie or --

WHITE: No, no, never have. That's where we used to play basketball, in the back -- building at the back there. It was a combination of lunchroom, auditorium, and basketball court. We had chapel and we had plays and we had commencements and we had lunch and we had basketball, we had commencement and class day exercises and magic shows and guest speakers and everything. (pause) My dad had a bad wreck at this corner one time. He pulled out in front of 00:30:00somebody and they whammed him in a '21 Packard.

M: Who won?

WHITE: The other guy. (laughter) He traded it in on a '34, '35 Chevy.

M: What was he driving that would whack out a '30- a thir-- a '28 Packard?

WHITE: Well, it was a '21 Packard. But that was a -- it was -- the 12-year -- the car, the Packard was 20 ye-- 12 years old at the time. Allan Tate, who was the bookkeeper, lived here. The son was a physician here in town. Good friend Robert Browning lived here. We had four of us that sort of went around together a lot -- Robert Browning, Sam Ward, Jack Holt, and myself. We called ourselves the Four Horsemen. And we all joined church on the same day, and Robert -- Sam was killed at the Battle of the Bulge, and his mother that lives up in Davidson now, we see her from time to time, and his brother lives up there, older 00:31:00brother. Robert was a big, fat, um, guy, the typical big fat guy, [and he ran?] a candy shop. And he suffered from it. And, um -- but he was in the Merchant Marine during the war. The ship was torpedoed in the Indian Ocean, and him in the lifeboat. And when they finally picked him up right off the coast of South Africa, he and another guy were alive, but he died before they got to shore. So he starved to death, which is, I think, ironic, in that he was such a big eater.

STONEY: Now, when we come in here, we just want to be quiet, Doctor.

WHITE: All right.

(long pause)

STONEY: Oh, good.

HELFAND: (whispering) Just (inaudible) you say goodbye to him. (audio break)

M: Are they ready?

HELFAND: Let's get the house behind them and (send up?] a car, OK?

M: Yeah, that's what we're doing. OK, guys, whenever you're ready.

STONEY: (audio cutting in and out) This is your book? This is it?

M: OK, yeah. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)

STONEY: OK, just -- hold on just a moment, yeah.

(audio distortion, pause)

STONEY: Show me that last -- that information on the book.

WHITE: OK, it's -- wait a minute, I believe it's in my car. I believe the book's in the car.

M: No, your book is in the backseat of ours.

WHITE: Yeah, it is, but I think this is another thing in the back-

STONEY: OK.

WHITE: -- in this c-- in the car. I have my, my briefcase.

STONEY: All right. OK, good.

WHITE: All right. (pause) (lots of distortion on audio) (inaudible) sale of the 00:34:00mill. Uh, those are -- (sounds of car doors slamming, background noise) Here it is, OK.

STONEY: Wachovia Bank and Trust Company.

WHITE: Yes, that --

STONEY: Winston-Salem.

WHITE: Yes, that's the, uh, the trustee of my father's estate. Uh, executor, my mother, and --

HELFAND: Can you start that again? Just have you say -

STONEY: Yes.

WHITE: The Wachovia was, uh -- boy, it doesn't have the (inaudible), this is the shared stock.

STONEY: OK. But this is your father's --

WHITE: Executor.

STONEY: Executor.

WHITE: Uh-huh.

STONEY: From Wachovia Bank, yes.

WHITE: Wachovia, uh-huh. Charlie [Northwood?]. Did you ever know him?

STONEY: Yes, I did. Well, I knew his name. I didn't know him personally.

WHITE: Yeah, he was at the party with Smith Reynolds's shop.

STONEY: Sure.

WHITE: And, uh, but this is, uh, this doesn't have the spinners in it, but somewhere around I'll have it.

STONEY: Well, thank you very much. It's been a fascinating day.

WHITE: Well, thank you, and I've enjoyed it too, and any other way I can help you, holler.

STONEY: Thank you.

WHITE: OK. If you want to go out to the Holt place, it's out at Alamance. Well, it's not open. It's open -- closes at 4:30. But there's a museum out there, from E.M. Holt -- that's where Alex Haler's great-grandmother and grandfather -- great-grandfather were married. And he gave the bride away.

STONEY: Huh.

WHITE: And, uh, they have a room out there devoted to textiles, which might be interesting, but I think -- today, I think we -- you got to what you wanted.

STONEY: Got some excellent stuff. Thank you. WHITE: All right.

STONEY: Please apologize to your wife for -- for us keeping you so long.

WHITE: I will. I will. I say, I need to get the stuff out of the other thing.

STONEY: I got it. Yes. OK.

WHITE: All right.

(overlapping dialogue; inaudible)

WHITE: Now, the lady who lived here had the loudest voice in the neighborhood.

M: Now, I hid it from my body a lot of times, my body'll block the wind.

WHITE: There must have been 15 kids -- 15, 20 kids all in the neighborhood in the amount of a couple of blocks. And she'd come out and holler, "Harrison! Harrison Junior!" And you could hear her all the way to the courthouse. My dad had a whistle. He'd blow one long and two short blasts on the whistle, and I'd come running. If I did not come by the time he blew a third time, he'd start yelling. If he started yelling, I knew I was in trouble. But you could hear it, and I say, I believe this is everything. (mumbling inaudibly) Francis, the newspaper clipping.

STONEY: The newspaper.

WHITE: I believe I put it back in --

STONEY: I'll find it if I can.

WHITE: -- here. Back -- yeah, there it is.

STONEY: Don't want to miss that.

(lots of background noise)

WHITE: OK.

STONEY: All right.

WHITE: All right, then. And thank you again.

STONEY: Oh.

WHITE: And -

STONEY: He doesn't have on a microphone, does he?

WHITE: Yeah, oh, yes, I do.

HELFAND: Oh, yes, he does.

WHITE: Yes.

HELFAND: You know what we could do, though?

M: What?

HELFAND: Hey, look.

M: What? Cop car?

HELFAND: Yeah.

STONEY: When you get back, we just may run you off a copy of all of this stuff just raw, onto the VHS. And it won't be edited, now.

WHITE: OK. Yeah, well, I know you -- there'd have to be a tremendous amount of editing.

STONEY: But --

WHITE: You got all of, of Bill Allen's (laughter) stuff.

STONEY: That was pretty -- that was pretty funny. They -- what he was saying, if we hadn't had those darn trucks going by --

WHITE: Yeah.

STONEY: -- but every time he'd start a good story, right in the middle of it -- I mean, I could just feel Judy's blood pressure going up and my blood pressure going up -- aargh! (laughter) And there was no -- there was no hope of telling him to repeat it.

WHITE: No, because he couldn't repeat it.

STONEY: No.

WHITE: No way.

STONEY: Well, I don't think he would understand. (pause)

HELFAND: Tell the doctor how wonderful it was to get those letters from him.

STONEY: Oh, yes, when we got the letters from you --

WHITE: Yes?

STONEY: -- telling us that -- about your family history and --

WHITE: Yes?

STONEY: -- and your interest in our project -

WHITE: Yes?

STONEY: -- it was such a joy, because as you know, we'd been looking for three years to get people who were quite willing to be open and honest about all of this. And your letters indicated that you were willing to do that.

WHITE: Well, I hope it's sort of what you wanted, and hope it does -- I hope 00:39:00maybe it'll help save this house.

STONEY: Yup. Hope so.

WHITE: It might.

STONEY: It might.

WHITE: It might.

STONEY: Yes.

WHITE: It needs all the help that it can. Thank you again.

HELFAND: Thank you.

STONEY: Thank you.

WHITE: Bye-bye.

HELFAND: It was a pleasure.

STONEY: My best to your wife.

[End of Audio, Remainder of video is of exterior shots of Graham NC]