Myra Heffner and Hardin Washburn Interview 1

GEORGE STONEY: Leviticus, Numbers. What do you say?

HARDIN WASHBURN: I'll say anything -- no, I won't say anything you want me to, but I'll -- I'll say something you want. I want to see if you pick it up, uh. You getting it?

JUDITH HELFAND: Mm-hmm.

STONEY: And you?

WASHBURN: Loud and clear.

MYRA HEFFNER: Deuteronomy. (laughter)

STONEY: (laughter) OK. How are you doing?

HELFAND: Just let them talk a little bit, OK?

STONEY: OK.

WASHBURN: I'm -- I'm not going to say much to -- to -- I mean --

STONEY: Oh, I'll ask you a question.

WASHBURN: -- I'm going to -- I'm waiting on your questions.

STONEY: I'll ask you questions, and then you can talk.

WASHBURN: OK. Fire away.

STONEY: But just keep talking, you see? It's fine.

HELFAND: Can -- can you move the, uh, monitor just [a drop?] so I can see it?

CREW: Sure.

WASHBURN: I'll -- uh, no, I'll -- you may ask me some questions, and I can't give you one bit of an answer to.

CREW: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)

STONEY: Then if you don't know, just say, "I don't know."

WASHBURN: OK.

STONEY: That's, uh -- Joe was saying some of that this morning.

HEFFNER: (laughter)

WASHBURN: And there'll be -- be some things that I don't remember clear.

STONEY: Yeah, yeah. Sure. I know.

WASHBURN: Um --

CREW: (inaudible)

STONEY: OK. Uh, tell me when you were born, and (audio interference) started working in the mill.

WASHBURN: Well, I was born 1906, November the 1st, 1906. And I started working the mill at 14 years of age. And, uh, uh, worked, uh, I don't remember just how many years, I think. And then, uh, I started work, uh, outside. Uh, I helped haul brick and stack them to build the front of the old Chronicle Mill. That's where I was working, and -- and I -- I wasn't used to handling brick. And I wore the skin off my fingers, and I had to -- it made me a half glove and 00:02:00mitten out of old inner tube. And also, when I was catching brick, I couldn't catch over four or six without pinching my fingers. And, uh, I was working with some boys, colored boys that had been working in the brickyard. And they could beat me all to pieces on that. So I started helping unload them out of a boxcar, slide them down the chute, and let them stack them on the wagon, bring them r-- and the wagon was a truck, bring them around [up to the?] front. And, uh, then I'd get out there, help them stack. And I was no good at pushing them up -- up a ramp to take up to the mason (inaudible). But I -- I d-- I did work there, so -- but not -- not too long. It did -- it was too much for me.

STONEY: Who was the s-- uh, superintendent then? Who was the owner?

WASHBURN: Uh, the superintendent, uh, uh, Mr. Irv Maynard. And, uh, that was a -- was and is still a -- a Stowe mill. Uh, unless they've sold it recently, they've sold some of, uh, two of the Stowe boys, uh, the old man Bob Stowe's, uh, two grandsons bought the Old Eagle Mill, which did belong to Jim Stowe. Their -- uh, their granddad's brother. And they bought it and shut it down. And I -- I think now they've sold it to Parkdale, haven't they? Uh, I'm not sure about that.

STONEY: Now, did you know those people personally?

WASHBURN: Uh, I knew Maynard, I knew, uh -- I mean, I -- I didn't -- wasn't associated with -- with, uh, either one of the Stowes. I knew, uh, Bob -- Bob Stowe, Jr. very well. And he's a pretty nice fellow. And, uh, Mr. Maynard was superintendent of -- of, uh, the Old Chronicle Mill. I knew him well. I -- I -- I was well acquainted with especially one of his sons, Torrance. And -- and we -- uh, I don't think I need to tell what I started to tell then.

STONEY: (laughter) Why not?

WASHBURN: Well, uh, he and Torrance, his -- his son Torrance and me with two -- two other boys decided we was going to go on a hobo trip. And -- and then Ms. 00:05:00Maynard caught him getting ready, she -- she stopped that right -- right away. But I -- I went home and put -- put on a suit of clothes and put my old, uh, overalls, uh, and another old jacket over it, keep my mother from seeing that. And -- and there's two of the other fellers failed in some way, and that tore up that hobo trip. And I'm glad it did, because later I -- I c-- (laughter) caught a freight train, and it -- it, uh, slung me loose from it, and I fell on the end of the ties, and just happened to roll away from it. But there was an old feller standing up on the back, looking at me, and he told -- told me, when 00:06:00I got up, he -- he -- he says I -- I -- of course, I'd already turned my back. He said, "I knew you was going to cut all -- get cut all to pieces. Now, don't you ever do that no more." And I had no business. Uh, wasn't going anywhere. And I -- I've done a lot of foolish things.

STONEY: Now, you said -- uh, tell us about, uh, the first time you knew Joe Lineberger.

WASHBURN: Well, that was when, uh -- we came to -- my dad moved into Belmont, uh, in 1917, and, uh, after I started school, I -- I got acquainted with -- with Joe. He was, uh, in grammar school.

STONEY: Now, who was Joe?

WASHBURN: Joe Lineberger. That's who you said you were -- yeah, Joe -- Joe Lineberger.

STONEY: Now who was he?

WASHBURN: Who was he? That's AC's son. AC's youngest son.

STONEY: And AC owned the mill?

WASHBURN: AC and the Stowes owned all the mills in Belmont. They -- they finally split up, and each one took different -- different mills.

STONEY: But then you went to school with, uh, the son of the owner?

WASHBURN: Uh, well, I went to school in the same -- for one or two years, and the same school, uh, but, uh, we -- t-- to be honest with you, we -- when we got out at recess dinner, we played with the poor class. Joe played with the 00:08:00wealthy ones. And, uh, we w-- I just knew Joe in school. I -- I -- I wasn't -- c-- he couldn't say that I was his friend, but I wasn't his enemy. I just -- he -- I didn't, uh, associate with him enough to (inaudible). And there was very few of, uh, the wealthy ones that associated with us from a poorer class. And -- and if you want to know how to feel about it, thank God for it, because I might have been (laughter) -- I don't know. I would -- I might have not been as -- as merciful toward a man down and out. I'm -- I'm -- I'm glad -- I'm glad for learning to show mercy, and to show respect, 00:09:00regardless of that man's, uh, uh, condition, fi-- financially. Uh, because I've never been above -- never been above the poverty level. Uh...

STONEY: Now, uh, tell us when your family first knew about unions.

WASHBURN: About the union? That was, eh, in about 1919, or in '20. Uh, that's when, uh, (laughter) my dad and, uh, all three families had to leave Belmont. Well, they didn't have to leave Belmont, but they didn't have to leave Belmont, but they had to get work somewhere. And -- and the old feller, BT [Bumgardner?], we worked at m-- we worked at Majestic at that time, the Smiths worked at Majestic, and Penningtons worked at Majestic. And then there 00:10:00was, uh, two [page girls?], they -- they went down with us, and boarded with, uh -- in, eh, our family. Uh, I mean, they -- they lived with our family while they were down there.

STONEY: No, look, we want to go back, because I didn't know whether they had to leave the mill or not. So could you start talking about that, and mention that your three brothers joined the union, your father didn't join the union, but they all had to leave town. Just tell us that story.

WASHBURN: The old man, BT Bumgardner, was superintendent, and he just fired them as fast as he found out they'd joined the union. So I had three brothers who -- had three adult brothers working there. And one sister that was old enough, she -- she had started working there. And, uh, my dad, uh, working there. And 00:11:00the old man BT fired my three brothers. My dad, my sister quit, and, uh, the other ones, these other two families that I mentioned, they had some that had joined the union. So they -- they had to get out, get s-- uh, employment somewhere else. And so they all -- all three of these families found work in Winnsboro, South Carolina. And so we -- we had three families pack their things in a boxcar, and moved them down there. And we went on the train. [We'd leave our?] furniture there, so we had to stay in a -- an old hotel that they 00:12:00were remodeling part of it. And it was a mess. We -- uh, the -- the adult boys and girls, they had a lot of fun that night. But I -- I had -- I was -- I was too young. I had to behave myself, and it was good that I did. Uh, anyway, I'll tell you a little -- little something funny about it. There were -- there was an old, uh, feller living there. He was -- he was staying there permanently. And, uh, these, uh, young -- there were three families. The younger adults, they -- they, uh, were up way into the night, because they know we didn't have to get up next morning early and go to work. And they were having their fun and making too much noise. And I guess that's where he [knew to put them?]. We see him leaving the next morning with a guitar and a 00:13:00suitcase. He -- he was leaving out for good. And then we all went down to the old restaurant, beside the hotel. And those three families went in there with the ones, few strikers, and other families that was with us. But in that one time, they eat breakfast, I guess the people were [running that?] so well, our business picked up, but it didn't last but just that one day. Uh, our furniture come the next day. Well, I think it got there that -- late that evening. And we got -- we got moved into the houses down there, the Winnsboro Mill.

STONEY: What --

WASHBURN: (inaudible) that's where I seen some of the biggest frogs you ever seen. They had a mill -- mill pond around the side of that mill, plus one down 00:14:00below it.

STONEY: Now, how did your family feel about having to leave town because they got fired?

WASHBURN: Because of the -- the union (inaudible)? Well, they didn't like it very much. Uh, but we didn't stay down there but about five weeks, and moved back into the -- uh, they had -- I would say, uh, uh, about halfway. Well, a little better than that, recognize the union at North Charlotte while over all the mills (inaudible) Charlotte, but we moved it to North Charlotte. And they, of course, come and checked on us, uh, checked on the older ones-- see if there were union people. And they found out that we had -- had to leave Belmont on 00:15:00the account of joining the union. And, uh, they welcomed us, but like I said to you before, uh, one -- one mistake, I think, that they made in organizing a union down here was, uh, they put too many little, what I call, smart alecks in as, uh -- uh, some little officer. And they thought that if they joined the union, it was time to strike, regardless of how well you was getting along with the -- with, uh, the company, or, uh, even about your wages. They thought it w as time to strike. And, uh, some of them did. And they didn't all that way, but some of the little officers, and they -- they kept up trouble. I think that 00:16:00the union would probably, uh, made a go of it back then, then this time, if, uh, they hadn't have been like that. And then, of course, it was, uh, an attempt to organize two -- two t-- two times after that.

STONEY: You told us the first time.

WASHBURN: I'm telling you about the first time.

STONEY: OK. OK. Tell us -- then the second time.

HELFAND: W-- wait, what year was the first time? He didn't mention that.

STONEY: Oh yes he did. He said it was 1918 -- 1919.

HELFAND: Did he?

STONEY: Yeah.

WASHBURN: Ni-- 1919 and '20. Or, '20. That's -- I was just, uh -- mm, that was before I was -- I was about maybe -- maybe 12, uh, more than -- more than (inaudible) -- 1906, then I'd a -- 00:17:00eh, 1912, I would have been 10.

HEFFNER: (inaudible) You were about 14 when -- 1919, 1920, that would have made you about 14.

WASHBURN: Yeah, uh, I suppose I was. But, you see, the old man done getting so old, now I can't count my age. (laughter) Uh --

STONEY: Well, tell us about the second time, now.

WASHBURN: Well, that was, uh, when, uh, uh, a feller by the name of Beal -- no relation to old Albert, at least that I know of. Uh, they -- they were trying to organize in -- mostly in Gastonia. But it was spreading into these other, like, the -- the little town that, Stanley and all down into Belmont, and Mount 00:18:00Holly. And, uh, it was -- it was, uh, different from, uh -- I know, I went to one of their [open air meetings?] one night, and, uh, I had no intention of joining, because I didn't even have a job at that time. And, uh, had no -- had no re--

HELFAND: Excuse me. We just stopped. We just -- I just lost sound. We're going to have to --

(gap in audio) (pause)

STONEY: -- second time. OK. OK.

HELFAND: Let me get set up. (inaudible)

WASHBURN: Uh --

HELFAND: Wait, wait, wait, wait. (inaudible)

WASHBURN: Well, you get it?

HELFAND: Yep.

STONEY: OK. Start about 19-- uh, start by saying "In 1929," and then tell about the [organizing?]. OK?

WASHBURN: Well, uh, you know, uh, in 1929 is when, uh -- uh, a lot of the banks, uh, close. Uh, just after that, and and -- and the Depression really started around 1929. But this, uh, the union u-- uh, had started talking about, when they were working on the [old low rate?]. That was in the early '30s. And I 00:20:00went, uh, for an open air meeting. And they asked me to joined, and, uh, I didn't because it -- I had -- fact is, I was broke. I had 25 cents in my pocket. And I didn't have no reason to join, I wasn't working in neither one of the mills. And I told them that, and they said, "Well, let --" they had to take me, give me mem-- membership for that 25 cents. And they d-- I gave it to them, and they gave me a book. And then I -- I read the book, and I seen stuff in it that I d-- I didn't, uh -- I didn't want, didn't agree with. And my mother, she cooked on an old wood burning stove. And that book made good kindling. I put that in there, and that started a fire with it. But it made -- 00:21:00it made better kindling than it did sense.

STONEY: What didn't you like about it?

WASHBURN: It was communist, all the way through. It -- it wasn't -- I -- I -- in fact, I can't -- I can't, uh, confirm this, but I heard that old Bill, after he failed in this organizing union there, that they worked harder at the old Loray Mill than any other place I know of. Uh, I would like to be able to remember the old sheriff that got killed.

STONEY: Aderholt.

WASHBURN: Aderholt. I said, I thought that was Aderholt. But I was afraid to be sure. I don't -- I remember, he and a f-- I don't remember, for sure, 00:22:00that there's anyone else killed up there. But he -- he did, and he -- he got killed. Well, they -- they failed in that union, and I heard -- and as I said, I can't confirm it, but I heard that Beal, (inaudible) outstanding organizer, he left the country and went to Russia. But, uh, not too long -- I don't know, a year or two or so, maybe three, I don't know, don't remember, but I heard that he s-- he -- he got -- he come back. And I heard that he said he'd rather be in prison over here than to be on the streets free over there. Uh, that ought to -- I can imagine that. That was just about right. At that time, especially.

STONEY: Was there a lot of talk about that around the t-- in Belmont?

WASHBURN: Yep. Among little, uh, fellers like me that didn't know much about it, we -- we talked about it a lot. And we blew that up, and -- and, uh, had to remember then, that I don't remember too much more about that union. It failed. But, uh, I remem-- uh, it reminds me of something else I heard the next time it was trying to -- trying to organize. There's an old feller, uh, he came -- he -- uh, I can't -- uh, I hate to start talking about somebody that I can't remember their name. But he was an old feller, came here from the First 00:24:00World War. He lived in California, but he was stationed in Camp Greene over here near Charlotte, during -- before he shipped over. And he got acquainted with, uh, with a girl here in Belmont, that a -- uh, not -- not here, but in Belmont. He got acquainted with a girl there. When they discharged him on the West Coast, it -- uh, at -- at his own state, I don't know what -- I never heard him say -- we called him Old California. That's what we called him. He'd walk -- he'd walk you to death, [and told them?] -- and he -- he walked, too. I mean, everywhere he went that night, he walked. But they discharged him in his own state, and they tell me he didn't even go home. He 00:25:00-- he got -- come [firm across?] the states, and married this girl he got acquainted with.

STONEY: Some was --

WASHBURN: Old man [Glen's?] daughter. Uh, the old man Glen.

STONEY: Was something special about, uh, Gastonia girls, or Belmont girls?

WASHBURN: Yeah, yeah. Well, I got a -- I'm a h-- (laughter) I'm a Hardin, and I got a girl from Hardin.

HEFFNER: (laughter)

WASHBURN: I did. I -- eh, thank God some of them [got here?] and said, you s-- Ray brought up in Hardin, (laughter) and -- and got -- married to a Hardin. L-- that's a little old, uh -- uh, cotton mill settlement up -- up here on the old 00:26:00South Fork River. And she was -- she was raised up there. And they moved to Belmont. Me and her got acquainted, and, uh, finally got married. I told her, I was 30 years old before I married, and she was, uh, about 27, I believe. I told them we was both old enough to have better sense. (laughter) Uh, I didn't have to put that in there, but she knew that I was joking. She was -- she was in -- she could take a joke as well as me. But this, getting back now to the -- uh, this, uh, (inaudible). This -- this old feller, California. He -- he had -- uh, he was over here when, uh -- uh, they was trying to organize a union. And Beal was trying to organize a union. And he heard them -- heard us 00:27:00all talking about it, and we found out it was communist. And he -- (laughter) he got to fighting this union [there that?] and, uh, oh, all up in the -- the -- the last time (inaudible). And he -- (laughter) he called him Rush. He s-- he was -- he didn't say Russian, he was saying "Rooshan red, red Rooshan." (laughter) He -- he'd holler at him when -- when -- I told you about the, uh, what they called flying squads going [for them?]. He'd see them marching, he'd holler, "Rooshan red, red Rooshan." (laughter) But (inaudible) tickled that old man all (inaudible). (laughter) So he -- he di-- he didn't, uh -- didn't join the union, [but they wa--?] -- there were some fellers that 00:28:00fought the union in the wrong way. And they fought it for no reason that I can re-- see, except to gain prestige with the employers. I know one that -- that fought in front of the -- of, uh, [Ned Prada?]. He had a -- a fistfight down there. And he just -- well, I didn't see it, but they said he whipped this old feller. He was -- the old feller was for the union, and, eh, it was (inaudible) fighting. (laughter) Fighting, and I said, [Girl must?] -- it was his nickname, so -- and by -- was a fool about [Girl won't?] -- won't knows I was talking about Roy.

HEFFNER: (laughter)

STONEY: Yeah.

WASHBURN: Yeah, and I'll just go ahead and tell you, it was [Roy Hope?].

STONEY: OK.

HELFAND: Can we wait (inaudible)?

WASHBURN: He wound -- he wound up being an overseer. And he w-- I don't -- uh, I don't think he was working at [that product then?], because I never knew him to work anywhere except in a yarn mill. And down there, they had trouble. I mean, they had some pretty serious trouble. And I come out, and having some serious trouble down there. I didn't -- I wasn't, uh, I would straddle the fence. Uh, I wasn't for or against, uh, because I -- I wasn't working at any of the plants. But I'd -- there was a group out in front, and that's when they had the National Guard out there. And I walked by Greer's dry 00:30:00cleaning, and I passed there, I seen one of the guards, and he was watching me. And I didn't know, I -- I just walked on. I was going down there and talk with him. But he -- when I passed the front of Greer's, uh, laundry and dry cleaning, he started meeting me. And before he got done, he says, he's going back [up there?]. I said, "Oh, I'm just coming down to talk." He says -- he says, "Get on back." And he says, "You're not supposed to pass, uh, Greer's door." He says, "You can come there, but don't come on down here." There'd been some going down there and causing trouble. And some right across the street in the old -- old Majestic, I was -- it was still standing there. And some of them get on the porches over there, and [hackle?] the guard, and they got the guard, and it was aggravating to him. But they 00:31:00didn't have no right to -- to -- to run one back across the street and follow him. They had fixed minutes on the -- on the rough. They didn't have no right to follow him back across that, run him in the house, and stab him. They did that to one, and he bled to death. And --

HELFAND: Excuse me. Um, there's a train in the background.

STONEY: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) That's beautiful.

HELFAND: OK. Well, he finished his story, and I got a crackle --

STONEY: OK.

HELFAND: -- and I heard a big train.

STONEY: OK.

HELFAND: If you wanted to tell the story again -- no.

STONEY: OK.

HELFAND: It's -- it's still whistling. I hear it.

STONEY: OK. But I -- I --

CREW: It's atmosphere, Judy.

STONEY: That's -- that's beautiful.

CREW: (inaudible) We're in the country. It's not that bad.

STONEY: But thanks for the (inaudible) about the crackle. That's important.

WASHBURN: I'm -- I'm not -- I'm not giving [you information?].

HEFFNER: No, I can -- I can tell that, uh, since y'all been up here, he's remembered more.

STONEY: Sure.

HEFFNER: Little things happening. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

STONEY: Yeah. OK.

CREW: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)

STONEY: You want to tell that story again, then just tell us the whole story 00:32:00[then again?], see how it works.

HEFFNER: Ah.

WASHBURN: Oh, about the trouble down there in East Belmont?

STONEY: Yeah, at Belmont. Yeah.

WASHBURN: Well, uh, like I said, that's -- the, uh, chase, I don't know whether the -- the boy had crossed the street, and they run him plumb back across, but he run in, run in to one of big (inaudible) houses used to stand there. And they followed him inside the door and stabbed him. And that was going too far. And, uh, one of my sister-in-laws was about to get it down there. She -- she pretty bad to [aggravate anybody?], uh, over a thing like that. And, uh, one of them, uh, punched her a little bit. My -- my brother says, "I thought surely he's going to stab it in her." But they didn't. 00:33:00They -- there were some of the guards that, uh, wouldn't fire. Uh, it's -- it's just like, uh, anything else, you find a bad apple somet-- here and there. Uh, one -- one policeman can -- can make the whole force look bad. One church member can make the whole church look bad. One -- one member of a family can make the whole family look -- and that's -- that's the way it works, that way -- and, uh, any organization, uh, I think -- I think that some -- some of the servicemen has made America look very poor in the -- in some of the, uh, countries overseas. Uh, I'm sorry to say that, we g-- we got some fine people. I know it. But there's some that don't -- don't seem to care, 00:34:00just so they get by with -- with their fun, or their -- their desires, or whatever. But, uh --

STONEY: Now, did you -- after that, did you ever, uh, have any dealings with the union? A union?

WASHBURN: No. Never [no way?]. Uh, I -- I can imagine that, uh, if they'd have tried to organize in some of the places I worked, I would have joined the union. But, uh, they never anywhere I was working, they never tried to organize. Uh, I've, uh -- I've worked for some -- some people. Uh, that if -- if they've ever tried to organize, and would have organized, I'd have been, 00:35:00like, some of the crazy ones. I'd have wanted to strike right then, because they'd done [that to me?] that -- uh, before the -- even was organizing. Uh, I -- I can remember, when I worked at Cramerton, the old man Cramer was a fine -- he -- he owned it. He didn't own that mill, or the -- that mill, he owned them two little mountains. He owned the great track on -- on the -- uh, side of the South Fork River toward Belmont. He -- he put in a sewer system over where, it was going to build a mill over there. There's one over now, but, uh -- uh, he didn't build it. His two sons sold out after he died. And, uh, uh, the 00:36:00company bought -- built over there. And then they s-- they shut down Cramerton, and pushed -- uh, tore down that old, uh, yarn mill that was built down at -- at the -- went up there to the --

HELFAND: Getting crackles. I'm sorry. I think you're sitting on this. I'm just getting all sorts of static.

STONEY: (inaudible) sitting on.

HELFAND: Doesn't matter, I'm getting stuff, so --

STONEY: Yeah, OK. OK. Can you figure out (inaudible)?

WASHBURN: I bet your arms are tired.

HELFAND: No sir, my arms are just fine. Still getting -- .

STONEY: OK. Uh, tell me about the flu epidemic.

WASHBURN: Oh. That -- let's see. That -- that was in 1918. I -- that's -- 00:37:00that may -- let's see now, how many were still at home at -- at, hadn't married. And my dad and mother's family. There was, uh, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight of us still there when that started. And --

STONEY: Sorry. We have to start over again, because I want you to say the flu epidemic.

WASHBURN: (laughter) Yeah. Well, we're talking about the -- the first time the flu epidemic hit -- hit this country. And it was carried, I was made to understand, that it was carried here from, uh, e-- it seemed that -- that they 00:38:00-- that, uh, most of -- of, uh, medical profession believed it -- it came from the old battlefield where there was -- there was people buried and then blown up, uh, at, uh, shells, [both?]. And they -- as they said, they believe that, uh -- that that's -- that started it. And it was -- it come over and spread, uh -- uh, it was -- it was killing people. I mean, it was killing them. I don't know whether y'all remember or not, but they used to, uh -- uh, di-- di-- didn't have, uh, funeral homes. We -- uh, what I -- I -- I expect you maybe have heard a better word for it than this, but when a person died at home, 00:39:00uh, they would, uh, call when they prepared them for burial. They called it "warshing." They -- they bathe them, and -- and lay them out and get the casket. The casket would come in a -- in a -- an old plain, uh, blank box. And that was -- he was -- the casket was placed in that like the casket's placed in a vault now. And, uh, before that, they tell me that there were some of them, some of the graves dug down to a certain level, and then there was a vault dug in there to fit that casket. And the caskets used to shape like -- come up 00:40:00like this, and then taper off to the foot. They'd dig a vault to fit that. But, uh, in my day, there was none used -- uh, the wood box. And that's one reason that a lot of the graves sank, and a few -- a few years after it. That box would rot, and it would drop to the -- to the, uh, to the casket, and they'd have -- have to fill in, because it -- it -- it, uh -- it sunk that much. But anyway, there was times when you could pass, eh, during the flu epicademi-- epidemic. There's times you pass the house where there was one had died from it. And it'd be as much as three boxes at one house. You knew 00:41:00there was three corpse there. Uh, because they didn't have a box for every corpse. And, uh, there was many of them [there?]. And they were -- I -- I thank God that there was not one at my dad's house. And there was -- we were a big family.

STONEY: How many of you were there?

WASHBURN: How ma-- how many, uh, was there then? There wasn't but, uh, dad and mother, John, my oldest brother -- no, John was married. [Plato and Cicero?] was twins, they was there. And Jim, me, Rob, and Aaron. And, uh, two sisters.

STONEY: For what size house?

WASHBURN: What size house were we in? A great, big, five-room house. Five 00:42:00rooms, all [in them?]. That -- that's true. That's -- we were poor. We were dirt poor. But we -- we had something to eat every day. Had some clothes, not fine. Had shoes on my feet when the cold weather comes, I didn't want to wear them. I didn't -- they had to make me put my shoes on. And -- and they had to watch me in the springtime, I'd start barefoot [in the forest?]. I reckon that's the reason I got such a big old broad foot. And it looks like I might have waded in the mud a lot (inaudible). (laughter) Uh, they were used -- they go into all that, but I -- I'm just crazy like that. Uh, anyway, going back to the flu epidemic, it was a family up there at the Climax. We were living there then. The family up there, I don't know why they did it. But, 00:43:00uh, one of the boys and the dad died, and there was young girl. I mean, she was just a -- just a child. And they didn't tell that child her dad was dead. They told -- told her he was gone. And -- and I think he went so far as to tell her he'd be back. Uh, but they had her believing that he was coming back. And let that child grew up -- grow up, thinking that her dad was still living, and he -- she'd -- he'd be back [someday?]. Why they did it, I don't know. Uh, I don't see why it'd be any harm to let a child know that 00:44:00someone's dead when they -- they going to soon learn that they going to die one of these days. And I -- I -- that doesn't make sense to me. That didn't make sense to me when I was a boy. Uh --

STONEY: Could you -- you were telling me something about Mr. Lineberger and the flu epidemic.

WASHBURN: Oh, he -- you'd meet Mr. Lineberger on the street, he -- if, uh, he wouldn't -- he wouldn't -- he wouldn't stop to talk to you. He might if some of the -- uh, his close acquaintance. But he'd be walking along with his handkerchief over his mouth and nose. He'd breathe through that handkerchief. Uh, they taught that the air was full of flu germs. And it -- it must have been, because there's a lot of people coming down with it. But you know, I didn't have it. Everyone in the family had it but me, not at one time. I 00:45:00remember all three of my brothers had it, dad and mother had it, and the two daughters, they had it. And that's two, uh, boys younger than me had it. And I walked, uh, about, uh, three, three and a half, maybe f-- maybe four -- three and a half, I think it -- miles, and even, uh, twice a week. We bought milk from, uh, a -- a feller lived over behind Belmont Abbey. He was a farmer there. I'd go over there, take my bucket, mother would give me a bucket with a 00:46:00cloth. And I'd go there and get two gallons of milk, and two presses of butter. We were bo-- bought buttermilk, and get two presses of butter. And, uh, Ms. Stowe was, as, uh, a [feller?], and she put that in there, and tied a cloth over -- tied a cloth around. And that helped -- helped keep me from getting trash in it carrying it home. Well, me and -- and my next brother, next to me, younger, we go over there, and they had kids of their own, and we'd play with them. And, uh, the flu got so bad, Ms. Stowe told us one -- one day, said, uh, "I don't mind y'all playing with my children," but said "The 00:47:00flu's so bad that I'm afraid it'll spread -- and she knew there was a lot of it on the -- on the Climax Village." Well, we -- we did have sense enough to understand, because we had been --

HELFAND: Sorry, I just got it again.

WASHBURN: Not -- not getting it in?

HELFAND: No, doing it again.

STONEY: (inaudible) hard wiring.

HEFFNER: (inaudible) on [TV, right now, right now?]. And you're watching on the TV right down there. (inaudible)

CREW: OK, we got speed.

STONEY: OK. Tell me about the flu epidemic and the, uh -- we g-- the fella who was the head of the mill.

WASHBURN: Uh, about the flu epidemic and the what?

STONEY: And how it was taken by the people around the mill.

WASHBURN: Oh. Well, um, you know, I -- I told you that -- that they were one in 00:48:00our family that was home, had the flu, and didn't except me. Uh, they did all of it at one time. But I remember, after my three oldest brothers that was at home at that time, (clears throat) they went back to work. They, uh -- we were living on the Climax, but they had -- they [helped fire?] and went to work in the old Chronicle Mill. My dad and my sister held a house there at the Climax, so they -- uh, i-- the mill s-- stopped off one hour for dinner, and then the -- they go back, start up at one o'clock and work the rest of the afternoon until six. They were wor-- working 11 hours a day, and 12 hours at night. So, uh, 00:49:00s-- three, uh, brothers come home one day for dinner. And I was laying across the foot of one of the beds. Didn't feel good, and, uh, the -- it'd done been through the rest of the family, the flu had. And they said, "Well, he finally got it." And then he come home that evening, and I was out in the yard playing. (laughter) And they said, "No, they made a mistake, I was too mean to take it." Uh, but I never did, until I was a grown man. Uh -- uh, I was -- I don't remember having to prove before I was married. And I was an old man that got married at 30 years old.

STONEY: You said something about being, uh, as good looking as you could be.

WASHBURN: Looking at what? What?

HEFFNER: Being as good looking as you could be.

WASHBURN: Oh. (laughter) I said, that don't belong in this f-- flu. (laughter)

STONEY: No. (laughter)

HEFFNER: What'd you say about it?

WASHBURN: Uh, uh, I said -- (laughter) well, if you try -- if you try to do something, really try your best to do something, you can't do it or you say, "That's the best I can do," don't you? Well, I've tried my best to look better, and I can't, so I'm pretty as I can be, ain't I? (laughter) Huh? Well, talk about the flu now, uh -- uh, that -- it was really killing people. Uh, anybody tell you it was bad, you can believe them. It was -- it was bad. And not only Belmont, not only in North Carolina, but over the whole country. 00:51:00That -- that spread -- that spreaded faster than AIDS has [then?]. But it -- they was some cure found for it, but they -- it was given to a lot of people before they got anything, before they found just how to treat it. And, uh, like I said, there was, uh -- you know, how the -- the caskets come in, and, uh, they came in in boxes, and -- and I've -- I've seen as high as three boxes, either on the porch or beside the house at one time. And lots -- lots of times, two, I've seen that, uh -- uh, in -- in Belmont, or, down in the mill village, what we're leaving. But they finally -- they got the, a cure for it, and they 00:52:00- they got it down to where it -- of course it -- it was rough when -- when I had it. I had never had it before. Uh, I had a little touch of flu, I think, since I've been here, for staying with Myra and Tommy. Uh, but, uh, nothing like they had back then.

STONEY: Well, now, back then in -- we were talking about the union in -- in '34, there was some of them that was pretty well organized. I wonder if you would read a document that we found in the archives from a local union.

HEFFNER: We, the members of Local number 1273, United Textile Workers of America, make the following resolutions. First, that the China Grove Cotton Mills Company recognize the body as an organization of workers.

STONEY: Did you know that China Grove had a union at that time?

WASHBURN: Yeah. But, uh, I -- I never -- never heard too much about it.