Reverend Frank Miller Interview

FRANK MILLER: Now, this right over in here is some more of the mill houses.

GEORGE STONEY: Mm-hmm.

MILLER: Just go straight around that curve up yonder.

STONEY: Now, I noticed that, ah, the blacks were living in these houses, here.

MILLER: Oh, yeah. When I lived down here, there wasn't a black over here. You didn't see one nowhere. And now they all - they've taken the town over.

STONEY: Mm-hmm?

MILLER: Yeah. Now, you turn left right here, young lady -

STONEY: Would they have -

MILLER: - right here. Right here. Now, see, all the way down here -

STONEY: Mm-hmm? Uh-huh?

MILLER: - is mill houses. And all these over here is mill houses, going up through here. These are all mill houses.

STONEY: Well, they kept up pretty well with the company?

MILLER: Well, fairly well. But nothing to, nothing to brag too much on.

STONEY: Mm-hmm. Well, these things -

MILLER: When I moved in down there, they had no sheetrock in them. It's old beaded ceiling and stuff. But then later, they did come around and sheetrock 'em, and put bathrooms in 'em. See, all these here is mill houses, along with the mill. Along this - the Brown Mill. Later Cannon-Murdoch family got them.

STONEY: These seem to be more crowded than the ones we usually see. And so they -

MILLER: Yeah, now them over here are not mill houses. Turn left right here, young lady. Yeah.

STONEY: Did they have room for gardens here?

MILLER: Well, some of them had room for a garden. I always had a mill or a garden, wherever I went.

STONEY: Mm-hmm?

MILLER: If I had to take a shovel and get out behind the (inaudible). (laughs)

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

MILLER: I always like to have a little door. Now turn back left, right here. 00:02:00Now, all the way down through here is mill houses, you see.

STONEY: This church back here -

MILLER: And all back up through yonder mill houses, see.

STONEY: This church back here, was this -

MILLER: That's the [Edward?] Methodist Church.

STONEY: Was that supported by the mill?

MILLER: Oh, no. No. And all up through yonder, what they call the [Norcott?] Mill. And this was the Brown Mill. See, Cannon owned this mill over here and the Johnsons owned this in here. Now, you just go straight, straight. Unless you want to go up in there and get all them mill houses. And, ah, yeah, this is known as the Norcott Mill. All they done is done - had spinnin' and stuff like that. I'd go straight. See right up - this should have been called Missouri City. Now, (laughter) back when I was a boy, it looked like one of them old cow towns you see on the -

STONEY: Yeah. Yeah.

MILLER: - movies. You see, right there on the corner with a big old boarding house, and barber shop down there in it, you know? And wooden stores all the 00:03:00way down that way.

STONEY: Well, you didn't have, ah, shoot-outs or anything like that?

MILLER: Oh, no. No. Used to be a grocery store sitting right across the road. Now, right down here, bottom of the hill is where Red, he moved when he left over yonder. See all these over here mill houses?

STONEY: Uh-huh. Well, it seem-

MILLER: It's that brown house. Now, right here is where Red lived, right in there. Let me see, yeah. And now my sister-in-law lives there now. But right back behind there is where Red lived.

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

MILLER: Yeah.

STONEY: OK, let's just get out and take a look.

JUDITH HELFAND: Well, do you want to open the door and do the same -

STONEY: Yeah. It's about - this is being the house that Red lives, and how -

MILLER: That's right.

STONEY: - has it changed since then?

MILLER: Yeah, that's the home that Red moved into. Yeah, I'm pretty sure of it, he moved there when he left. Shotgun house.

STONEY: Mm-hmm. When he (inaudible), left the Mill Village -

MILLER: That's right.

STONEY: - he had to move off the -

MILLER: That's right.

STONEY: - Mill Village. But he didn't, ah, leave town?

MILLER: No, no, no. Huh-uh. No, he didn't leave town.

STONEY: Ah -

MILLER: And he worked out of town here with the union, you see? Now -

STONEY: Uh-huh? Well now, we keep hearing from some of the old people that, "The union went off and left us." What did they mean?

MILLER: "Went off and left us?"

STONEY: Yeah.

MILLER: Well, I don't know. They finally quit.

STONEY: Mm-hmm?

MILLER: I mean, you know, there weren't no organizer around here.

STONEY: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

MILLER: Yeah. Whenever everything, the striking and everything was over where -

STONEY: But Red didn't go off and leave you. He was -

MILLER: Oh, no. He was still around. But he was traveling, like.

STONEY: I see.

MILLER: They send him out of town a lot.

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

MILLER: Yeah. They sent him up to different places, like Greensboro, and oh, well, all over North Carolina. And some of the other states, too, he went in.

STONEY: Well, we know in some places that the people were afraid to stay around. Ah -

MILLER: They were? Now, that house was not owned by the Mill Company.

STONEY: Mm-hmm? Mm-hmm?

MILLER: And that end right down there was not owned by the Mill Company, and the other one not a - some of these houses here were not owned by the Mill Company. That one right over there was owned by the Mill Company. And several of them up the road. Yeah.

STONEY: Why do you think Red wasn't afraid to leave town? Ah, to stay here?

MILLER: Well, old Red was a pretty well-liked fella.

STONEY: Mm-hmm?

MILLER: Except, you know, about the union. But for the people, didn't nobody every say anything to Red about that. He was a well-liked fella. And Red was a good fella. He's a good man. Good fella. And Red self-educated himself. Now, I don't know how high Red went to school. But old Red got to the place, he know the law about as good as a lawyer did.

STONEY: Hmm.

MILLER: That's right.

STONEY: Well, we've seen a lot of his letters, and the documents in Washington, and they were certainly, ah, well-stated. 00:06:00He seemed to have all the legal lingo down.

MILLER: Yeah, he, he got him some law books and all and studies them things, you see?

STONEY: Yeah.

MILLER: And, ah -

STONEY: But how much education did he have?

MILLER: I don't remember. I don't remember how high in school Red went. But I don't think he went too awful high. But thing about it, he self-educated himself. Kind of like I did, see, on the bible.

STONEY: Yeah.

MILLER: I never finished high school. And then I went to bible school for three years, and then you can buy all the books, you see -

STONEY: Mm-hmm?

MILLER: - like law books, and all kind of books on the bible. That's the way I done my own self.

STONEY: Well, now, the fact -

MILLER: Self-educated myself.

STONEY: - the fact that Red, ah, was pretty close to the church, did that have anything to do with the way people regarded him?

MILLER: Well, I don't know. When Red got to working with the union, and he'd gone a whole lot. So he was going a lot.

STONEY: Mm-hmm?

MILLER: He didn't work too awful much around here. I seen him out somewhere else. And most of the time they'd send somebody else in here, you know?

STONEY: I see.

MILLER: So this was his home town, and they sent him around different places.

STONEY: Why was that, that -

MILLER: I, I don't know. But I don't know why - I don't know how high Red was in the union when he had to retire. You seen any of his articles of what he was? I know he was up there pretty high.

STONEY: I don't know.

MILLER: When he retired, he was up there pretty high.

STONEY: Mm-hmm. Well, I'm just trying to wonder why, if they would send him to another town and send another organizer here?

MILLER: Well, because he's so well-known around here, you see, and everything, I guess. Now, he worked some around here.

STONEY: Mmm?

MILLER: Yeah. If I ain't mistaken, around here is where he got his name, "Six-Eye Red."

STONEY: Mm-hmm?

MILLER: Yeah. And he had a lot of friends. People, a lot of them believed in the union, you see, but they were afraid to do anything about it.

STONEY: Mm-hmm?

MILLER: Because like I told you, ah, they didn't have law like they got now, discriminating against you -

STONEY: Mm-hmm?

MILLER: - and things like that. So, ah, if they found out you was, ah, trying to get people organized in their mill, they could let you go. They'd find something to fire you for. They still do that today, though.

STONEY: Hmm.

MILLER: With the law against it, they still always find something -

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

MILLER: - against you, you know, to let you go.

STONEY: Well now, you continued in the union, though. You didn't get out.

MILLER: No, I stayed on with them. But that's all it was. I was just my own, that's all. There wasn't no meetings, or anything like that going on. And the, and the organizer, about all he did, the one that came here, was just get me in a couple boys and we'd go around and talk, go over to Charlotte, eat, you know, something like that. (laughter)

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

MILLER: But, ah, it was hard to get people to commit theirself, you see, to these things. Or you might get one to sign up, you know, join the union, sign up, but didn't want nobody to know it. That's all. And like I said, there was no law like we got today, and the least little thing, they could fire you and tell you to move, see?

STONEY: Well, there was a law, but it just wasn't enforced.

MILLER: No.

STONEY: That, you see -

MILLER: And the average person didn't know that.

STONEY: That's - you see, that's why we've got all these documents, because Red and some other people kept filing protests and going to boards and helping these local people to try to get their jobs back who'd been fired, because they had been members of the union.

MILLER: Yep. Well, they worked hard to -

STONEY: So we've got a - we've got a lot of documents, you see, with his name on it, and -

MILLER: Did he ever get any of them back?

STONEY: Ah, yes.

MILLER: Did he?

STONEY: And, ah, when we get inside, I want to show you some proof that they did.

MILLER: Uh-huh.

HELFAND: It even seems like he stuck around and worked around here. Red did.

STONEY: He said he didn't.

HELFAND: Well, he -

MILLER: He worked some around here, but not much.

HELFAND: - no, he helped those - it seems like just the Plant 6. He helped the workers -

MILLER: He was working -

HELFAND: - at Plant 6.

MILLER: - He was working in the mill when they organized the union. And that's why he got himself out.

STONEY: Mm-hmm?

MILLER: See? I don't know whether they fired Red or whether he joined the union and went to work with the union -

STONEY: Mm-hmm?

MILLER: - before they got shed of him or not. But about every one that they got shed of got 'em a better job. I don't know, I always said the Lord was in it.

STONEY: (laughs)

MILLER: That boy has joined the union, well, it wasn't long, though. The Lord told me to preach, and I was preaching, see. I got the boy to help me, well, and them together, he's preaching, too. (laughter) And some of the fellers, Red, he got them a better job, you know, 00:11:00got him one with the union.

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

MILLER: Fact is, I think I could have went with the union, an organizer, if I could get taught, you know. But I -

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

MILLER: - I didn't, I would have to travel like he did.

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

MILLER: Yeah.

STONEY: OK, let's go - (break in audio)

M3: You're on speed.

MILLER: I always lived in, ah, somebody's home, you know, private.

STONEY: Mm-hmm?

MILLER: Home. Now, them are mill houses right here on the right.

STONEY: There used to be a lot of -

MILLER: Now, my daddy used to own this house right up here, that done lettin' the thing fall down right up there.

STONEY: Mm-hmm?

MILLER: That was the nicest home in this section, back then.

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

MILLER: Yeah, my daddy owned that, and it run all the way back to another street.

STONEY: There used to be a lot of boarding houses around.

MILLER: Oh yeah, they all gone now.

STONEY: Yeah.

MILLER: Yeah, they're all the boarding houses is gone.

M3: Now, these brick houses aren't mill houses are they?

MILLER: No, huh-uh, no. None of these up here is mill houses. You can turn around any 00:12:00time you want to now.

M3: Some of them look like they're copies of mill houses.

MILLER: Yeah. But they're not.

M3: (inaudible) for you.

MILLER: These people own these houses. Now, you can turn back right here, and you're running up back out your own highway. Turn right, right here.

HELFAND: So where was your daddy living, during that period of time? Because you said your dad worked at the Brown Mill and joined the union too, didn't he?

MILLER: Oh, yeah. And when they had the [home guards?] out, my dad refused to go in, as long as the guard was up there. But they took him back. Yeah, they took him back. He'd say he's never worked under a gun in his life, talking about it's like a chain gang, you know, back then?

STONEY: Yeah?

MILLER: And he said, "I ain't going to work under one now."

STONEY: Hmm.

MILLER: "Not at my age." Now, these is mill houses right up here, on the right.

STONEY: Now, had your father had any background in unions?

MILLER: No, no.

STONEY: He came down from the mountains, and there's nothing like that?

MILLER: No, he, he was - yeah, he was born up around Jacksonville.

STONEY: Yeah.

MILLER: But he come down when he was a small boy, his dad and mother brought him down when he was a small boy. Now, see that's what they call the Norcott Mill over there. Now, that Norcott Hill up yonder, all them back up in yonder is mill houses, you see.

HELFAND: Should we make a right?

MILLER: If you want to go back down -

STONEY: Yes, you -

MILLER: - where I was born -

STONEY: Yes, you -

HELFAND: Yeah?

STONEY: - make a right.

MILLER: - yeah. I mean, where I live -

HELFAND: Yeah?

MILLER: You make a right.

STONEY: Yeah.

HELFAND: OK.

M3: That's [a shabby?] Mill.

MILLER: That's what's known as the Norcott Mill. But now they call it Plant Number - I don't know what the plant. See, Cannon had all of his named, like, one, two, three, four -

STONEY: Mm-hmm? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

MILLER: - and all like that. But, ah -

STONEY: Did you ever know Mr. Cannon?

MILLER: No, not personally, I didn't.

STONEY: Mm-hmm?

MILLER: They say he's a very nice fella.

STONEY: Mm-hmm?

MILLER: You meet him and all, he's a very nice fella. At Dover Super Market, they had just a small store there. Now, you can turn left right down here, young lady, we'll go back around a circle. You know, back by where Red lived and make that circle and come back down where I used to live. Go back down the shotgun row and you can make the same round there.

STONEY: OK. Now, are you on the right or the left?

MILLER: I'm on the right.

STONEY: OK, good. Some of these people have really fixed up their houses nice.

MILLER: Well, they the one's that bought 'em.

STONEY: Uh-huh?

MILLER: I imagine they're the one that's bought them.

STONEY: Uh-huh.

MILLER: Yeah, if you live in one of them, Murdock will give you the opportunity to buy.

STONEY: Mm-hmm?

MILLER: But I built - I better not say what I think.

STONEY: (laughs)

MILLER: Right here, turn right. (laughs) And all these houses over here is, like I said, they're mill houses.

STONEY: Mm-hmm?

MILLER: But they used to didn't all look like that. They wasn't painted up like that. I think some of the people bought their homes here. But now a lot of colored people live down in here now. You can pretty well tell where a colored man live -

STONEY: Mm-hmm?

MILLER: - by seeing all these cars in the yard. And they... It's this house down here where I lived, there. Up the creek, I had about a half -

STONEY: Which house was yours?

MILLER: Right around the curve. I had about a half an acre of ground at (inaudible).

HELFAND: This it?

MILLER: I believe - has that got a tree in the yard? No, no, no -

HELFAND: This one does.

M3: This one has a tree in the yard.

MILLER: - it's on down. It's on down. No, it's on down.

M3: On down a bit?

MILLER: Yeah.

M3: OK.

MILLER: It's around the curve. Second house around the curve. The one where I lived at. See, some of these people bought these houses. But up the creek, up there, I had a half acre of ground. I could work as a guard.

M3: That's where it is?

MILLER: Right there, that second house is the house I lived in.

STONEY: The one with the swing, here?

MILLER: Huh? Yeah.

STONEY: Uh-huh?

MILLER: That's right. I lived in that house. That's the first company house I ever moved into. Yeah.

STONEY: How many rooms did it have?

MILLER: It had four, but then later they built me another one to it.

STONEY: And how many people in the house?

MILLER: Me and my wife and five children, yeah.

STONEY: That's kind of cozy, wasn't it?

MILLER: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Had a great big old living room there, though -

STONEY: Mm-hmm?

MILLER: - see, it had a hallway, and they tore that hallway out, and made that whole one room, a great big old room, you see, right there. But that's where they put my first sewage in, right there. (laughter) And before we put the sewage in, we had the outhouse.

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

MILLER: We called them "outhouses."

STONEY: Yeah.

MILLER: Out behind the house, see. But that house has been picked up a lot. Somebody's put a scenic front porch on it. It used to didn't have that. Most of them used to have banisters around on the porch, you see, wooden porch, with wooden banisters around.

STONEY: Well, that was a place where everybody kind of hung out.

MILLER: Oh, yeah, see -

STONEY: No air conditioning or anything, I guess.

MILLER: Oh, no. Didn't know what an air condition was back then.

STONEY: Mm-hmm?

MILLER: And say, like, neighbor down there, up here. Eric [Cralter?], right down there, they'd come over. I'd go to their houses and eat, and we'd sit around, a group of us, and talk. Yeah. Yeah, that bring back old memories to 00:18:00me, that house right there.

STONEY: Yeah? Yeah. Good memories?

MILLER: Huh?

STONEY: Good memories?

MILLER: Yeah, good memories, because me and my first wife lived there.

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

MILLER: Seventeen years ago, I was living up on Wine Corkscrew Road. The church had gave me a big home up there.

STONEY: Hmm?

MILLER: And the 25th of this month, 17 years ago, she died.

STONEY: Ah, I see.

MILLER: Yeah, so, it bring back old memories to me.

STONEY: Mm-hmm?

MILLER: Yeah. I had my workshop under that house. Had me a band saw, rip saw, and I can't carpenter, but I love to try, you know?

STONEY: (laughs)

MILLER: I'll tell you what, when I lived on the mill hill, it were rough in the mill trying to make a living, because you know you may get to work - be working along, then all of a sudden, you shut down for a week. You're going two days a week, or something like that. Well now, I would all ways - I'm not boasting, but I was a little ambitious. I always tried to get out and make me a little 00:19:00extra money. And so with that woodshop under the house, I have screened a lot of people's houses, you know.

STONEY: Mm-hmm?

MILLER: Not a whole lot, but some. Back when they used wooden screens in there. And, ah, I'd take a Mason Shoe book in my pocket, leave here and not have a nickel, and come back home, maybe have six, seven dollars I'd get to - until they give me a damned payment. And I didn't have nothing but a piece of paste board that they sent me to measure the feet with.

STONEY: (laughs)

MILLER: To sell mason shoes.

STONEY: Yeah.

MILLER: Take a bottle of Watkin liniment in one pocket and Rawleigh in the other, and go around all these houses and sell them Watkin Products, you know.

STONEY: (laughs)

MILLER: I mean, we're always trying to do a little something, make a little extra money.

STONEY: Yeah.

MILLER: I had to with five children.

STONEY: Yeah.

MILLER: And, ah - but it bring back old memories.

HELFAND: I, I wonder, um, during this, during that period of time when - this is where you were living when you were organizing?

MILLER: No, I think that was all over with when I lived there. That's the first mill house I ever lived in. I never lived in a mill house before. And when I first came over here, brother, it was rough! Now, I mean it was some rough ones along this road! But you know what? The old man that used to live on the top of that hill, me and him, man, we didn't have a bit of use for one another. But did you know that old man got converted and started coming up to my church?

STONEY: Hmm.

MILLER: He had a boy, and his little baby died, and his son wanted me to preach his funeral. I preached the funeral, and the old man come up to the church one day to - him and his wife, she wanted to come up, he said, "Me go up over here, to old Frank Miller?" But he came. And the old man got converted. And him and his wife were two of the good a friends I ever had.

STONEY: Hmm.

MILLER: That's right. They're both dead now, but their daughter was - called me up last week, tell me about she lived (inaudible). Her daddy and momma loved me, you know.

STONEY: Hmm.

MILLER: Yeah. And one time, well, we didn't have a bit of use for one another. (laughs) And, well I had good neighbors along here, you know. Yeah, I had some good neighbors.

HELFAND: Um, you know, Reverend Miller was starting to tell us before about, um, having some six truck drivers, I guess, that belonged to a union that were, ah, in his church?

MILLER: Oh, I had about, I guess, 16 or 17 truck drivers. Yeah. See, they - most of all these trucking companies, you know, had unions -

STONEY: Mm-hmm?

MILLER: - back then. And, ah, so they had truck drivers. And we'd have a revival up the church, them old boys loved me to death.

STONEY: Hmm.

MILLER: They pulled the truck that week, or get off for that week, you know -

STONEY: Mm-hmm?

MILLER: - and we'd have a revival. We'd have a good time together.

STONEY: Judy and I were at the revival last night.

MILLER: You were?

STONEY: Yeah.

HELFAND: Yeah.

MILLER: Where?

STONEY: The first, ah, ah, Zion Church in, in, ah, Dallas.

MILLER: Dallas?

STONEY: Yeah.

MILLER: First Zion Church?

HELFAND: AME Zion.

STONEY: AME Zion. Yeah.

MILLER: Mm-hmm. A colored church.

STONEY: Yeah.

MILLER: Mm-hmm.

HELFAND: What -

STONEY: We went with some people who had been, ah -

MILLER: Yeah?

STONEY: - been helping us.

HELFAND: I'm just, I'm just wondering, what happens during a union tribe in the church? I mean, since you did have the union members like these truck drivers in your church -

MILLER: Nothing much ever said about that.

HELFAND: How would you preach - how would you preach during that period of time?

MILLER: Well, you didn't preach union, ah, to the people. I mean, you left that out. That's not what the church is for. And so we'd leave that out, or you could get in a squabble in a hurry, because you have some in there that didn't believe in it and some that did, you see?

STONEY: Mm-hmm?

MILLER: And so, we never did mention that in the church. And, ah, and they didn't - they got along good together.

STONEY: Well now, we -

MILLER: - the ones that did belong to it and the other, because nobody ever said anything about it. (break in audio)

M3: So whenever you feel like describing -

MILLER: Yeah, these are mill houses all along here.

STONEY: Uh-huh? Well, the reason we keep asking you about the church and the unions -

MILLER: Uh-huh?

STONEY: - is because there have been two famous books written called Mill Hands and Preachers and then a sequel to that. And they, those books are full of accusations that the manufacturers were buying off churches.

MILLER: Uh-huh?

STONEY: Ah, was there anything to that?

MILLER: Well, I never heard tell of it.

STONEY: Mm-hmm?

MILLER: No, I never heard tell of anything like that.

STONEY: That we -

MILLER: The majority of the people done the ruling, but preachers (inaudible), got to let them buy them off, he wouldn't have been around long.

STONEY: Well, we were at the Smyres vil - (break in audio) and the superintendent required people to go, and also required them to [tie it?]. And several people told us about that.

MILLER: Yeah?

STONEY: And in fact, that was in the official documents they were protesting -

MILLER: Yeah.

STONEY: - to Washington about.

MILLER: Well, I didn't know -

STONEY: But, ah, evidently it was rather special to that particular place.

MILLER: Yeah. I didn't know anything about that, but -

STONEY: Yeah, uh-huh?

MILLER: - no, I do know that, ah, the superintendents, some of them went to that Methodist Church, Harmony, that I showed you over yonder?

STONEY: Mm-hmm? But he got a little old preacher up there one time, he didn't stay but a year.

M3: Good -

MILLER: By the time he got through with them, they was all gone. They'd left and went somewhere else. Now, right across the bridge, turn back to your right. They're all Depot zone right across the bridge, right here. Turn right.

HELFAND: OK, hold on.

M3: No, I'm fine. Oh, nice shot!

MILLER: Now, that's the old [Cabarrus?] Mill, what is known as Cabarrus Mill down here. Now that's closed down. Somebody got a little something in there, I don't know what it is. Now you turn left up here.

STONEY: How do you feel when you see all these mills abandoned like that?

MILLER: Well, I, I just don't know how to tell you, because I never thought it would ever 00:25:00happen.

STONEY: Mm-hmm?

MILLER: Yeah, I never thought this would ever happen. See, they had weaving, spinning, cording and everything in here. Now, right at the end of this mill, there's a road that turns right. You take that road. And I'll show you something right here. Turn right. Right here. Now turn - just keep around the corner, like. Now, you see, at the old - right here. You stop. There are mill houses down there. A lot they have down there was my daddy's along them, and the home guards, you're on the strike, they was right here, see?

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

MILLER: And when I'd want to go home, go down that sidewalk going home, they'd stop me. Yeah.

STONEY: Hmm.

MILLER: Yeah, they'd stop me, want to know where I was going. And that made me so mad I didn't know what to do. About every time he'd come out or come back, 00:26:00they'd had to stop.

STONEY: The, the National Guard?

MILLER: Yeah. Yeah, the National Guard. And so they'd stop you.

STONEY: Mm-hmm?

MILLER: See, all these down in here, (inaudible). (break in audio)

M3: OK.

STONEY: All right.

MILLER: When I'd go out to the stores right out here, they'd stop me, home guards, here. When I come back, they'd stop me, want to know where I was going. And I'd tell them I was going home. And it made me angry, you know? About every time I'd want to leave home, I'd have to come by here and have them fellas that were about there stop me. But I guess they were doing their job, trying to protect their Mill Company. (laughs)

STONEY: How did you feel about that? Did you think that -

MILLER: It made me angry.

STONEY: Yeah.

MILLER: Yeah, it made me angry, for me not to be able to go home without a soldier stepping out and stopping me, wanting to know where I was going. I felt like it was none of his business where I was going. I tried to tell them I lived right down there, and they ought to knew - you know, as many times as I 00:27:00come in and out.

STONEY: Mm-hmm? Mm-hmm?

MILLER: I could have went out the back, went around out of the way, but I didn't do it. I'd come up the sidewalk there. And they'd stop you and want to know where you were going.

STONEY: Where did you have the pickets here?

MILLER: Didn't have no pickets here. I never seen no pickets here, just me. And if they did, it'd be just like over yonder there, you'd get out in the front and sing and pray a little. That's about all.

STONEY: So what did they sing?

MILLER: Oh, they just sang gospel songs, you know. And get down on their knees and pray.

STONEY: Would the preachers come around?

MILLER: Oh yeah, sometime the preacher would be there and get down with them, you know, and pray and sing. But he wouldn't get in any pulpit, you know, and preach about it.

STONEY: Mm-hmm?

MILLER: Yeah, preach about these things, because he didn't want confusion in the church.

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

MILLER: Church is a place where you preach the gospel. You know? Well, this is 00:28:00known as, known as the Cabarrus Mill. But I believe it was later numbered Plant 5, you know?

STONEY: Mm-hmm?

MILLER: And, ah, you don't got all that about the home guards, have you, there?

STONEY: No, you just tell it, tell it again.

MILLER: Yeah, well, if I come up that sidewalk out there, the home guard, they'd stop me. Want to know where I was going.

M3: That's when they (inaudible).

MILLER: I'd come back, they'd stop me, want to know where I was going, and say -

STONEY: Mm-hmm?

MILLER: - and it made me angry. And it'd make anybody angry, you know -

STONEY: Mm-hmm?

MILLER: - when someone step out when you're going to your home. (laughs)

STONEY: Did they - were they armed?

MILLER: Oh, yeah. Yeah, they had the rifle. Yeah. I don't know whether they had anything in them or not, but they had it.

STONEY: Did you see any machine guns around here?

MILLER: One time, I don't remember which mill it was, whether it was the Brown Mill, or - they had them up on the corner of the mill.

STONEY: Mm-hmm? Mm-hmm?

MILLER: That's what they said they were. Yeah.

STONEY: Now when the people went back, ah, we've got pictures of people going back with the, with the National Guard watching them. Did that happen here?

MILLER: Oh, yeah. Yeah, there are people that went on in anyway, they say. That's why I never did win a strike. The people - in a way, it was hard for the people to win a strike.

STONEY: Mm-hmm?

MILLER: Because just say, for instance, the people all lived in these houses, here, say Mill Company house. And no more money than they made, why, when they was out of work a week or a couple of weeks, man, they're getting in debt deeper and deeper -

STONEY: Mm-hmm?

MILLER: - all the time.

STONEY: Well then, what -

MILLER: There's one - one week at a time -

STONEY: Mm-hmm?

MILLER: - would throw them way behind.

STONEY: Then why did they strike?

MILLER: Well, they was hoping to get something better. They was hoping they wouldn't have to be out but a little while at the - they let us have a union, they say.

STONEY: Mm-hmm?

MILLER: But that didn't happen.

STONEY: Well, the government said that you could have a union.

MILLER: Yeah. But they said we couldn't.

STONEY: Who was "they"?

MILLER: The ones that owned the companies.

STONEY: I see.

MILLER: (laughs) See, they're having a lawsuit in Kannapolis right now, that, ah, ah, people let go. They said it wasn't on account of the union, but they're - been having a big - you've read about that.

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

MILLER: That trial being going on, over the Labor Board. I don't know what they're going to do about it.

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

MILLER: But they had a bunch of them let go, and this last - see, they're pretty strong now in Kannapolis. Yeah, they got a pretty strong union up there. They're just about to win this last election in Kannapolis. So I don't know, I say there, when you get a bunch of the blacks in there, they will - they will go out. Yeah, they'll go out.

STONEY: Why do you think that's true?

MILLER: Well, if you lived around here, you'd go to the Welfare as a white and try to get something, they ain't got a thing for you.

STONEY: Mm-hmm?

MILLER: (laughs) Now, I hate to say this, it might be showing you something now -

STONEY: Mm-hmm?

MILLER: - leave this out.

STONEY: Mm-hmm? OK.

MILLER: But a white don't get nothing.

STONEY: Mm-hmm?

MILLER: They're always just out, or something, you know. But there's one thing about it around here. See, I had a lady that tell me, a colored woman one time, she had a bunch of children. And, ah, she wouldn't take a full-time job. Said, "No, sir, I'll lose my Welfare." Said, "I'm going for me and my children." And then she living with a man, him working, see.

STONEY: Hmm.

MILLER: See, he was working, going to payday, and yet, these things like that [happen?].

STONEY: But why do you think there's so strong for the union now?

MILLER: Well, one thing about them, and I'll just put it like this, they can get more help than a white man can.

STONEY: Mm-hmm?

MILLER: Yeah. They can. But you take people that worked in the mill here, and they'd be out for one week.

STONEY: Mm-hmm?

MILLER: That'd throw them way behind.

STONEY: Hmm.

MILLER: When you make about $16 a week -

STONEY: Mm-hmm?

MILLER: - or $18 a week -

STONEY: Mm-hmm?

MILLER: - way back yonder, and not even make that much, maybe.

STONEY: Well, you know, back in 19 - in August of '34, just before the big strike, a whole bunch of delegates went to New York from the South. And they were going to have a meeting about whether or not they're going to strike. And the head of the union, Mack [Mahan?], said, "We don't have enough money." But the Southerners said, "We've got to strike anyway, because we're having" - a number of their officers were getting fired all over the place.

MILLER: See, I didn't know anything about that. They didn't tell us anything about that.

STONEY: Did Red go to that convention, do you think?

MILLER: I don't know. I imagine he did.

STONEY: Mm-hmm?

MILLER: If he would - been with them any length of time.

STONEY: Yeah.

MILLER: I'm pretty sure he went.

STONEY: Mm-hmm?

MILLER: And, ah, but you see, they had nothing, in a way, to fall back on.

STONEY: Mm-hmm?

MILLER: Like food, or anything. And like I said, if you was out of the mill a week or a couple of weeks, well man, if you didn't live in a mill house - and I did - my rent was going on. And my groceries, my five children had to eat.

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

MILLER: See what I mean?

STONEY: Yeah, sure. What would be a typical meal for you back then?

MILLER: Oh well, now you want to - what did we eat along back then?

STONEY: Yeah. Uh-huh?

MILLER: We eat, ah, I call it "poor man gravy."

STONEY: (laughs)

MILLER: Now, I love it. Love it, yeah.

STONEY: Yeah?

MILLER: But now they call it "milk gravy."

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

MILLER: You love milk gravy?

STONEY: Yeah, yeah.

MILLER: Well, we call it "poor man's gravy," didn't know you could put milk in it.

STONEY: Yeah.

MILLER: Just put the flour in it and brown it good -

STONEY: Oh, yes, yeah.

MILLER: - and water and stir it, it got thick.

STONEY: Yeah. Mm-hmm? Yeah?

MILLER: And we eat a lot of that. And fat back meat for breakfast.

STONEY: Uh-huh?

MILLER: Yeah, molasses. Oh, homemade molasses.

STONEY: Yeah?

MILLER: Butter, homemade butter, hot biscuits.

STONEY: Mm-hmm?

MILLER: And, ah, then another thing (laughs) - nobody ever heard (inaudible), called it egg (inaudible). When I was born, my daddy used to take a half a dozen eggs to feed all of us with. Stir 'em all up, you know, and put a cup of cornmeal in it, pour it in some hot fat back grease after he poured some water in it.

STONEY: Mm-hmm?

MILLER: Salt and peppered it, and cook it. They come to kind of a hard mush. Man, I could eat that stuff 'till I busted. (laughter) I can now. I can go into the kitchen (inaudible) fix, fix this up. But we eat beans and potatoes -

STONEY: Uh-huh. Yeah?

MILLER: - and fat back. And payday we generally - when we got our paycheck, we go and get us a little ham, meat or pork chop, something like that. But we eat pretty, pretty fair.

STONEY: Well now, almost every cotton mill worker we talked with said that we ate well -

MILLER: Yeah?

STONEY: - and yet, we know from the health reports that there was a lot of pellagra in the mills, among mill people.

MILLER: A lot of what?

STONEY: Pallagra. It's a - caused by a dietary deficiencies. Vitamin deficiency.

MILLER: I never know none around where I worked.

STONEY: Uh-huh?

MILLER: About all of them like me, they eat pretty healthy. (laughter) Well, like I said, if it hadn't been for these here grocery stores on the mill here, they'd of went hungry, a lot of them.

STONEY: Mm-hmm? What did you buy at the grocery story?

MILLER: Oh, I'd buy - (break in audio)

STONEY: Feel your back.

M3: We're rolling.

STONEY: OK. Ah -

MILLER: Well, we eat pretty good, I'll be -

STONEY: Yeah. Yeah?

MILLER: - honest with you.

HELFAND: You were talking about the mill.

STONEY: Yeah -

MILLER: It wasn't the finest, but -

STONEY: Yeah?

MILLER: - when I lived on the mill here, over yonder, I raised me two hogs.

STONEY: Hmm. Yeah?

MILLER: Yeah.

STONEY: Well, this -

MILLER: Went back up from the house, raised me a couple of hogs, and I had me a garden, you see.

STONEY: Yeah?

MILLER: In the summer, I had me a garden. And when I was a young feller, before I ever started preaching, I drank pretty bad and everything -

STONEY: Ah. Yeah? Yeah?

MILLER: - you know. I was always trying to make a little extra money somewhere or another. I went and borrowed the money and bought a beer joint right out here, it's torn down now. It a rest- a café, they called it then.

STONEY: Uh-huh? Yeah?

MILLER: Don't call them - didn't call them restaurant, (inaudible) had on the mill. It was a café. We didn't know what it was, he (inaudible) -

STONEY: Yeah?

MILLER: - and get a hotdog and hamburger. Hotdog a nickel, hamburger a dime.

STONEY: (laughs)

MILLER: And you come out and buy a dollar's worth of hotdog, get 20 hotdogs for a dollar. So you can imagine how many hotdogs -

STONEY: Uh-huh.

MILLER: Oh no, no. It ain't no meal in there. See, they got something in there, but I don't know what it is. That's a meal.

STONEY: Mm-hmm?

MILLER: They'd have looms in there running, fitting frames in there, cording, had everything in there. I think they had an opening house, an opening room, 00:37:00where they opened the cotton.

STONEY: Mm-hmm?

MILLER: Take it all the way through, you know.

STONEY: Well, you lived pretty close to that, so you were getting -

MILLER: I got my wife right down that road, there. My first wife.

STONEY: Well you - you must have - then - that noise was going on all the time.

MILLER: Oh, yeah. You sat down on the front porch out there, and when the door - in the summertime now, in the winter you didn't hear it, but they'd open the door in the summertime. You'd hear them looms clickety clockety, clickety clockety, going on out there, you know? And, ah, so, yeah.

STONEY: What happened when it was short time and the mill was shut down?

MILLER: Well, people were just out of work.

STONEY: Uh-huh?

MILLER: They'd had nothing to do. Yeah.

STONEY: I was talking to a fella who said that when the mill shut down, he couldn't go to sleep, because he was so used to (sound of a motor) - he was so used to hearing that noise.

MILLER: Well, it didn't bother me or my sleeping at all.

STONEY: Yeah.

MILLER: No, it didn't bother me and my sleeping.

STONEY: Yeah.

MILLER: Unless I'd be worrying about how I'm going to meet my bills, you know. Things like that. But I didn't lose no sleep.

STONEY: OK, we'll go back.

(break in audio)

[silence]

MILLER: Going out to them stop lights. That used to be a wood mill in there, and that used to be a wood mill. And they had the first church I ever remember going to for every ten churches.

STONEY: But you became a Baptist?

MILLER: Mm-hmm. Presbyterian preacher, I asked him why he was Presbyterian. He said, "Well, my daddy was raised a Presbyterian." He said, "Why are you Baptist?" I said, "Well, my daddy told me when I was a little boy, he said, 'Now son, I want you to grow up to know more than I know.'" (laughter) And I said, "You know what, when I grew up," I said, "He was a Republican." I said, "I raised a Democrat and joined the Baptist church." (laughter) I said, "I try and do what my daddy tried to tell me." Right down here on the left is the 00:42:00Gibson Mill. All these years, it's a Gibson Mill House, what you call the Gibson Mill House. Take right over here on the left.

STONEY: Mm-hmm? Yeah?

M3: Pull over on the other side of the tracks, pull over by that, right there.

HELFAND: On the left side or the right side?

MILLER: Yeah.

M3: (inaudible) side.

MILLER: There's a lot of people killed right here at this crossing. Now, there used to be a little old house. See how close that house was to the mill?

STONEY: Yeah? Uh-huh?

MILLER: A little old house sat right there.

M3: OK, stop for a second.

MILLER: Yeah. Now that's the mill where you got that picture of that little house.

STONEY: Mm-hmm? What, we got -

MILLER: It was that close to the mill there -

STONEY: Mm-hmm?

MILLER: To the little old mill in there?

STONEY: Uh-huh?

MILLER: And I'd known it the Gibson Mill.

STONEY: Where are the two-story houses that we were seeing?

HELFAND: On the other side, across the tracks.

MILLER: Right across the road. Right across the railroad.

HELFAND: I think that entrance used to be on the other side.

MILLER: Yeah, that'd be over on this side, here.

STONEY: OK, we can go around there, then. Let's have the -

MILLER: Oh, yeah, see, these them old two-story houses, too.

STONEY: Yeah, uh-huh?

MILLER: Come on over here.

STONEY: Yeah, these are -

MILLER: Yeah, all these are mill houses. Some of these people bought these house, though.

STONEY: Uh-huh?

MILLER: They bought them from Murdock. Most of these you see fixed up had been bought.

STONEY: Uh-huh?

MILLER: Now, these here wooden would have been painted, now, Murdock painted some of them, you see.

STONEY: Mm-hmm?

MILLER: So he could sell 'em.

STONEY: OK, just let's go around to see if we can get those other -

MILLER: Yeah.

HELFAND: At least -

STONEY: A match shot for the two -

HELFAND: At least he could point it out to us.

STONEY: OK.

MILLER: Yeah.

MILLER: Now, across the railroad over yonder right in front of him is a big two-story house. All these mill houses you're getting shots of. The old big 00:44:00two-story houses across the road -

STONEY: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

MILLER: - and then down yonder on the other side.

STONEY: I see. Yeah, uh-huh.

HELFAND: There it is.

STONEY: Yeah, we'd better come back for these when, um, when we can see them more clearly.

M3: Drive down that road, (inaudible).

MILLER: You see on the right, down yonder?

STONEY: Yeah. Mm-hmm?

MILLER: That's just like these on the hill on the left.

STONEY: Right.

HELFAND: Hold on.

MILLER: Now, I don't know about this road, young lady.

HELFAND: There is a lot of (inaudible).

MILLER: See, oh, across over here is a house.

M3: This is exactly what -

STONEY: Yeah. He's just getting this part of it first, and then we'll come back and get the other.

M3: There's your little house.

STONEY: Yeah.

MILLER: Yeah. They moved it back here, though. They got, what, ah -

M3: There are your arches. That's what I want.

MILLER: That's part of the mill down in here, they call it Hobart. That's part of the Cannon, too. Just where they made that post, and you know.

STONEY: Mm-hmm?

MILLER: Down here, (inaudible) for cars and stuff like that. Now, you turn left here and go across the railroad.

M3: Judy, just follow this.

HELFAND: Want me to just take you in?

M3: No.

HELFAND: No. OK.

MILLER: Now, you watch it here, honey, oh, this is dangerous. Well, they got signals up here, too.

M3: (inaudible).

HELFAND: (inaudible) the town.

MILLER: Now, these all company houses -

HELFAND: Straight down this part?

M3: Yeah, that's what I mean.

MILLER: - yeah, they're all company houses, all of them built about alike.

M3: It makes a nice transformation.

MILLER: You'll come right back out in the road up here you all went down a while ago. And so you just go back down to the stop light, turn up here to this road.

HELFAND: What was the feeling here, back during those days? I mean, during the organizing and then during the strike. When you look at these houses, what was that attitude in the Mill Village?

MILLER: Well, to tell you the truth, there wasn't too much talk about it. No, there wasn't too much talk about it. Now you turn back left, right here.

M3: Got it, Judy?

HELFAND: Were you worried about your family?

MILLER: Huh?

STONEY: Just tell us about where your family is buried here.

MILLER: Right in there. That - where you were taking pictures. That's where my family's buried.

STONEY: So just name -

MILLER: My mother and my dad, my sister, Red and his wife, and then I got another sister. Howard [Atwell?] and his wife, they're all buried right there together. Yeah. Get that to the right, son, because I can't tell sitting in here - I believe these over here is my mom and dad, back yonder. I believe it is. I can't see too good.

[silence; shot of graveyard and gravestones]

[silence;shot of Cannon Family plot]

[silence; shot of Cannon Family plot]

STONEY: Yeah.

MILLER: (laughs)

M3: Rolling.

STONEY: OK, tell me about the Cannons. Who is buried here?

MILLER: Well, Mr. Jim Cannon, Joe Cannon, Charlie Cannon, and that's the Cannon family, you know. And I have an idea that some of his grandchildren are, some of them are buried in there, too. But that's the Cannon plot there -

STONEY: Mm-hmm?

MILLER: - where the Cannons are buried. Yeah.

STONEY: How far from your family?

MILLER: Oh, it's a good long ways, back down yonder where we were.

STONEY: Hmm.

MILLER: But, ah, I got a grandpa that's buried right across over yonder. And not too awful far.

STONEY: You were saying about they're all filling the same ground.

MILLER: Oh, yeah, they just filled six foot of ground like my daddy. Yeah, he worked for these mill companies, you know, and now he's in six foot of ground, that's the Cannons in six foot. And they none of them take a $20 bill with them. (laughs)

M3: So when you're dead, you're dead, everybody occupies the same space?

MILLER: Here in the graveyard?

M3: Yes, sir.

MILLER: No, my dad, he - well, my - I got to sisters and two brother-in-laws that's buried there where my dad's buried. But I'll be buried on down all (inaudible). They didn't have any of those lots when I went to buy. But after I buried my first wife, then the man told me he found some extra grave lots in there, but I wasn't going to dig my wife up and have her removed. 'Cause when you're dead, you're dead. It don't make much difference where you're buried.

STONEY: Yeah, but you're ready?

MILLER: Yeah.

STONEY: You were saying something about having your own stone.

MILLER: Yeah. I've got my own two stones put up back there, I got my funeral already paid for, and got my name already on two stones when I die. And all I have to do is give the undertaker a suit of my clothes, a shirt and necktie, pair of socks, ready to put me in the hole. Yeah. I've had a lot of people tell me, say, "That's foolish to pay for your funeral before you die," I don't think so. If you go buy an automobile, you ain't going get a man the first thing he wants for it. And when you did, you can't talk back to the undertaker. But when I'm living, I can talk back to him. I tell him if he don't want to do the right thing, I'll go to somebody else, you know. So you can kind of bargain with the undertaker while you're living. (laughter) The same as you can with an automobile.

STONEY: OK.

HELFAND: Yeah. Pick up the phone when it's ringing (sound of touch-tone phone) and ask for Dick, OK?

MILLER: OK.

F2: Thank you for using AT&T.

MILLER: They're thanking me for using AT&T. (phone ringing) I hear it ringing now. He may not be there.

F3: (inaudible) Church.

MILLER: Is this Richard [List?]?

F3: No, this is Peggy (inaudible).

MILLER: Is Richard around?

F3: No, he's not here right now. He, he stepped out for a few minutes. Could I help you?

MILLER: Ah, this is his uncle from up in Concord, I wanted to talk to him a little bit.

F3: Uh-huh.

MILLER: Yeah.

F3: Yeah, well, he's just not in his office right this minute.

MILLER: Uh-huh.

HELFAND: Somebody came by, and he, he, he hopped out, you know? He's like a jack-in-the-box.

MILLER: Yeah.

F3: Here, there and everywhere. (laughs)

MILLER: Well, there's some people up here getting some information all about his dad -

F3: Mm-hmm?

MILLER: - and some films about him, and so forth.

F3: Uh-huh. Yeah.

MILLER: And, ah, so -

F3: I did talk to a young lady (inaudible).

MILLER: Yeah. And they're the one that done the calling. They're here now -

F3: Uh-huh.

MILLER: - and they wanted to get me talking to him.

F3: Uh-huh. Get some things?

MILLER: Yeah. So if he comes in in the next 15 minutes, tell him to call me.

F3: OK, well hold on a minute, let me look out his window, make sure he doesn't drive up. He was supposed to be just gone a few minutes, just a second.

MILLER: OK. Can you hear? I wonder if that's his wife?

HELFAND: Secretary.

MILLER: Huh?

HELFAND: Secretary.

MILLER: Did you call the office, or his home?

HELFAND: Office.

MILLER: Oh.

F3: Oh, he's still gone. I'll tell him to call you if he gets back in a short while.

MILLER: OK.

F3: OK, bye-bye.

MILLER: Thank you. Bye-bye. I wonder if he run home.

HELFAND: Want me to try at home? I'll try at home. (sound of touch-tone phone)

MILLER: Ringing? Tell me when to talk.

HELFAND: I'll tell you when.

MILLER: Ready?

HELFAND: No. (sound of touch-tone phone)

F2: Thank you for using AT&T. (phone ringing)

MILLER: I'm ready to watch it all now. It's hard to catch a preacher. (laughter)

HELFAND: Doesn't seem to be home.

MILLER: Don't believe he's there.

STONEY: OK.

MILLER: I thought maybe he might have run over and got her.

STONEY: Yeah?

HELFAND: Well, do you want to wait 15 minutes?

STONEY: Yeah, we can do that.

HELFAND: Is that O-

STONEY: These are some letters that Red -

MILLER: Wrote?

STONEY: - wrote to Washington.

MILLER: Mm-hmm.

STONEY: And some responses he got. It showed that he was working hard for, ah, the union and the people that had been in the union for -

MILLER: Yeah?

STONEY: - for many years after that.

MILLER: Mm-hmm.

STONEY: At least two years after that.

MILLER: Well, did you talk to his son? I was talking, trying again a while ago, about some things, maybe he's got, he's been seeing -