Reverend Frank Miller and Reverend Richard Lisk Interview

00:00:00

FRANK MILLER: Hello. Oh, yeah, how are you doing, Dick? Well, now that - yes, well, the girl was wanting to get a picture but I started talking in here and she'd gone out, run out, uh, to get something that your daddy had wrote and this boy - he's taping it for us. Yeah, they're here now, Dick. I took them around, yeah, over at the Brown Mill, showed them the little old shotgun house your daddy lived in. You're still there, ain't you?

RICHARD LISK: Yeah, is the shotgun house still there?

MILLER: Huh?

LISK: Is the shotgun house still there?

MILLER: Oh, yeah. I took them down there and showed them about the shotgun and Elmer, where they used to live, and I took them over to Cabarrus Mill, showed them all the Brown Mill, you know, and –

LISK: Yeah.

00:01:00

MILLER: - over at the Brown – over at, uh, Cabarrus Mill and where the home guard used to stop me going down the street. I took them down to Gibson Mill. Then, I took them up to the graveyard and he got out in the rain. It had been pouring down rain up here, Dick, and he got a picture of your daddy's grave and his name and all, and your –

LISK: Yeah.

MILLER: - mama's grave. He got a picture of all of them, and then he went around and got a picture of the Cannons' plots, you know.

LISK: Yeah.

MILLER: So, they're here now -

LISK: Yeah.

MILLER: - getting questions from me now -

LISK: Yeah.

MILLER: - and anything that you know that I ain't told.

LISK: Well, I don't have any idea what you've told them!

MILLER: Well, (laughter) I've told them about everything I know.

LISK: (laughter) Well, tell them all we both -- it won't take any longer.

MILLER: Well, I –

LISK: Tell them all we both so it won't take any longer.

MILLER: Yeah, I told them I imagine you had a, uh, a bunch of stuff from your daddy's, you know.

LISK: I've got some stuff of Daddy's. I've got some pictures and a few papers and --

MILLER: Yeah, you've got a picture. I thought you had got that picture of him 00:02:00and President, uh, Truman or, no, Johnson, ain't it?

LISK: I had a picture of him and Truman, him and John Kennedy, and so forth and so on.

MILLER: Yeah, well, I know that somebody – I don't know – one of these around here may have it, maybe, my son or somebody had one of him and President Johnson and all -

LISK: Yeah.

MILLER: - together.

LISK: Well, my – my son Lynn has a framed personal letter from John F. Kennedy – wrote to Daddy.

MILLER: Yeah, had a signed, framed, uh, uh, personal letter wrote by John F. – wrote to him by John F. Kennedy.

LISK: Yeah.

MILLER: Well, that's good. Maybe, they ought to come down to Louisiana and see you.

LISK: (laughter)

MILLER: They've been taping me now. I don't know all [leading?] and this is the third time. Twice, they've been here with the cameras -

LISK: Yeah.

MILLER: - and I'm going out to Hollywood if I keep on. (laughter)

00:03:00

LISK: Well, you're going to take whose place out there – Clark Gable?

MILLER: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, do you, uh, uh, know anything, Dick, that you could tell me about your daddy that maybe – I told them, I said - now, your daddy didn't do too much organizing right around here, did he?

LISK: (inaudible) around --

MILLER: He stayed – he went out of town, most of the time. Now, he does some speeches – uh, made some speeches and things like that, but, uh, uh, he was not a – you know, didn't work as much around here as he did out of town, like the Cone Mills and some of them up around Greensboro.

LISK: The only time I remember he worked around there was, uh, when we lived over there with Grandma and the, uh, union was voted down.

MILLER: Yeah, well, I remember the strike. I don't remember what year that was.

LISK: Well, the strike – one of the strikes was in '33. That's when Daddy went to work for the union.

00:04:00

MILLER: Yeah. Well, now, uh, didn't your daddy get, uh – did he quit and go to union or did he get fired over the union?

LISK: He got fired and blackballed.

MILLER: That's what I think; he got fired and blackballed -

LISK: He got fired and blackballed –

MILLER: - and they blamed the mistake –

LISK: (inaudible) secretary of the local union.

MILLER: Yeah, if I ain't mistaken, he was living in the shotgun house. That's when he moved into the [China?] Robertson house down on White Street.

LISK: (inaudible) house.

MILLER: Huh?

LISK: The mill threw him out of the shotgun –

MILLER: That's what I'm talking about, how she made him move from the shotgun house and he moved down into China Robertson's house – Claude and Elmer, you know.

LISK: That's right.

MILLER: Yeah, and then y'all stayed up at my dad and mom's, you know -

LISK: Yeah.

MILLER: - and then they lived on [Crowell?] Street.

LISK: Yeah.

MILLER: But, I didn't go around all them places -

LISK: Yeah.

MILLER: - and show them that. But, I did – I forgot whether he went with the union before he got fired. I know him and (inaudible) got fired.

LISK: He got fired and blackballed.

MILLER: Yeah, and so he went right straight on with the union, though.

LISK: Yeah.

MILLER: I told Mr. Stoney here, I thought the Lord is telling him to be a 00:05:00preacher, and then (laughter) – but he went into the union.

LISK: Yeah.

MILLER: Yeah.

LISK: Well, is any of them there now?

MILLER: Oh, yeah, they're here now. They're taking down what you're saying, you know.

LISK: Well –

MILLER: Yeah. If they can tell them over this thing, tell it to them.

LISK: Yeah. Let me speak to one of them.

MILLER: Yeah, uh, now, here's Mr. Stoney. I'll let you speak with him.

LISK: Uh-huh.

MILLER: He's got some letters, now, that your daddy wrote to Washington, you know.

LISK: Yeah.

MILLER: Here he is, Dick.

GEORGE STONEY: Hello. How are you?

LISK: Just fine.

STONEY: Thank you for talking with us.

LISK: Let me tell you something that might make you sick.

STONEY: OK.

LISK: My father had intended to write a history of the rise of the Textile Workers Union. He had given a file case full of materials, the original documents of union contracts, of letters for the National Guard Program –

STONEY: (inaudible)

LISK: - etc., etc., etc., and just before Mother got so terribly sick, she decided to clean house one day when Daddy was not at home, and she burned up a 00:06:00file case --

STONEY: Oh, my goodness!

LISK: - of letters from Franklin Roosevelt, from –

STONEY: Oh, gosh!

LISK: -- his secretary of labor, from this one and that one, and as I say, original source documents of all kinds for the rise and spread of TWUA AFL-CIO in North Carolina and the southeast of the United States.

STONEY: Good God! Why did she do that?

LISK: She just decided to clean house one day and she burned them -

STONEY: Oh, goodness!

LISK: - and that was the closest thing to a divorce in my family I ever saw. When my daddy came home and found out what Mama had done, ugh, uh, he was not real happy.

STONEY: Oh, my goodness!

LISK: But, Daddy had planned, and Daddy had the ability to, uh, do what he wanted to do, but Dad had planned to write a history of the rise of the Textile Workers Union in the southeastern United States and had spent several years in his spare time gathering source documents, 00:07:00uh, for his research.

STONEY: Well, you know how much we need that material now.

LISK: That's the reason I'm saying it –

STONEY: Yeah, oh --

LISK: - will make you sick in the [face?].

STONEY: I'm holding but, by the way, Judy Helfand, who's co-directing this film with me -

LISK: Uh-huh.

STONEY: - is, uh, just a wonderful research person, and she had been rifling away through the National Archives in Washington, and she's found a number of letters which your father wrote to, uh, different agencies in Washington –

LISK: Hmm.

STONEY: - trying to get justice for some of the people who were mistreated after the strike. I'm holding in my hand right now one he wrote from the hotel of Charlotte on September the 18th, 1935.

LISK: Mm-hmm.

STONEY: It's to Samuel, uh, R. McClure, Executive Director of the Textile Labor Relations Board in Washington. "Dear Mr. McClure, I'm writing in regard to the cases of discrimination against the Cannon Mill Plant 6, Concord, NC. As you know, these complaints have been filed several times with your board. 00:08:00As yet, we have not been able to have these employees reinstated, who have also filed these complaints with the Atlanta office of the original board, etc., etc." It goes on. As yet, I've not been able to find out just when the new set-up will start functioning; you know, the New Deal kept changing agencies -

LISK: Yeah.

STONEY: - and so he says he's going to continue with it, and you – to show how doggedly determined your father was, two years later, these people actually got some compensation.

LISK: Well, my father was – believed in justice. My father taught me to desire an education. I have four earned degrees from accredited institutions of higher learning, and my father is the one who pushed me. I think the happiest day of my daddy's life or his happiest day was the day I walked in and handed him a letter that said, "You're Richard Lisk. You have completed your final 00:09:00requirements for your doctorate degree. Graduation will be –."

STONEY: Oh, I'll bet he was proud.

LISK: Uh, and mother used to fuss because, uh, Daddy studied textile engineering by correspondence, and Mother used to complain Daddy would work a 12-hour shift at the mill from 6:00 to 6:00 and then come home and study four hours every night before he went to bed. Uh, and Mother said that she had seen the time when the only thing they had for Sunday dinner was a bald potato, and when Daddy had three socks not three pairs – three socks. Uh, but, Daddy would spend 10% for savings or he'd put 10% of his salary in savings and buy a book to read.

STONEY: Hmm.

LISK: Uh, so that's the kind of man Daddy was.

STONEY: well, I think we're going to want to talk to you personally if we can. Uh, you have any plans to come this way?

LISK: No, I don't, uh, in fact, uh, ordinarily, I would like to come that way 00:10:00but my church is a three-man church staff –

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

LISK: - except for the fact I'm looking for two church staff members right now. (laughter) I have two staff members just accept other positions and resign, and so I'm covering three jobs right now.

STONEY: I see.

LISK: Uh, were it not for that, uh, you know, I'd love to come to North Carolina because that's where my folks are –

STONEY: Sure.

LISK: - and, of course, Mom and Dad are buried there -

STONEY: Yeah.

LISK: - and all my kin folks are there. I'm the only member of the extended family who's out here in the middle of nowhere.

STONEY: Uh-huh.

LISK: But, I would be happy to visit with you by phone or share with you anything I have. I have some letters, some documents, some pictures of Dad. Uh, one of my sons, uh – I have a son who's an attorney, and one of his possessions is a personal letter to my father from John F. Kennedy that my son had framed and stuck up on the 00:11:00wall of his office in his law office.

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

LISK: So, anything I can do to help, I'd be happy to share with you.

STONEY: OK, well, uh –

LISK: You probably are aware of it, but if you would like, not directly, my father was not directly involved, but if you want a picture in a microcosm of what took place with the general strike and what have you in '33, examine the strike of a Firestone plant in Gastonia.

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

LISK: Uh, I wrote a – and I don't have a copy of it. I threw it away, but I wrote as a senior English project when I was working on my bachelor's degree a research paper on that. Uh, I had to write a research paper, and my father was involved in it, so I had, you know, resources.

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

LISK: But, a microcosm of that strike will share – will –

STONEY: That was in – the '29 strike?

LISK: Yeah.

STONEY: Uh-huh. We'd like very much to see that.

LISK: Uh, but, uh, the University of North Carolina Press had one book that 00:12:00detailed in detail, uh, names and what have you, how the powers that be were used to break the strike and what have you, uh, and how the, uh, National Guard came down and arrested a man chained to a light post, charged him with rioting, disturbing the peace, and destruction of property and sent him to prison -

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

LISK: - though he was chained to a light post when they arrested him.

STONEY: Do you remember the name of the book?

LISK: No, I don't. I just remember it came out of the University of North Carolina Press and, like I say, this is -- this was when I was working on my, uh –

STONEY: How – how long ago was that?

LISK: I graduated from college in 1953.

STONEY: So, it would be around – around the early '50s, huh?

LISK: Yes, uh –

STONEY: Mm-hmm. Well, we're going to be looking that up.

LISK: Uh, but I'd be happy to visit with you or share, you know, anything I could. Uh, I don't know whether you need any 00:13:00pictures of my father years ago.

STONEY: We certainly do. Now, would you consider maybe, uh, flying up here and spending a day with us?

LISK: If we could work it out, I'd be happy to do it.

STONEY: OK. Um, let me call you back tonight. We'll figure out when we can do it and when you can do it, and let's see if we can't do that. I think it would be – it would be a very good thing for this film.

LISK: OK, um, I will be – uh, my time, now, I'm an hour off of your time there in Concord.

STONEY: Right.

LISK: Uh, and I will be home tonight at approximately nine o'clock my time.

STONEY: OK, so we will call you around 10 o'clock our time.

LISK: That's correct.

STONEY: Good.

LISK: Uh, and, uh, we'll see what, and, like I say, I'll work with you anyway I can.

STONEY: Great. Now, I just want to – I want to –

LISK: Say again?

STONEY: Just a moment, wait, I'll be with you in just a minute.

LISK: Sure.

JUDITH HELFAND: OK, could you ask him one question, just for the benefit of this –

STONEY: All right, just a minute.

HELFAND: - and then give the phone back to Frank.

STONEY: Yeah.

00:14:00

HELFAND: He's going to, maybe, continue talking –

STONEY: Yeah, OK.

HELFAND: - and he's going to need some cutaways –

STONEY: Yeah.

HELFAND: - and just give me a second to re-tape this -

STONEY: OK.

HELFAND: - because it's falling.

STONEY: Could you hold on just a moment? We've got to change the tape. (laughter) Sorry.

HELFAND: Well, OK.

STONEY: I hope this all makes sense later.

HELFAND: Let me make sure – ooh.

LISK: (inaudible) we're talking on a (inaudible).

STONEY: You can understand that, good.

HELFAND: Um, and just this piece of tape is -

STONEY: OK.

HELFAND: - coming off. Um, do I have another piece of tape? Here. OK.

STONEY: OK?

HELFAND: Um, one second.

STONEY: One second. But, these letters – it's fascinating to see how doggedly your father followed this and how even-tempered he was on paper.

LISK: Oh, yes.

HELFAND: Could you – could you – could –

LISK: My father was very even-tempered. He told me one time, he said, "You gain very little as a rule when you lose your temper because you lose control."

HELFAND: Yeah.

STONEY: OK, Judy?

00:15:00

HELFAND: OK. I just – just for the benefit of this – the –

STONEY: Yeah.

HELFAND: Why did his – how did his father – why did his father join? I mean, does he remember? Was he there? Does he remember anything?

STONEY: Um, just for our sake, um, do – do you remember, uh, your father joining the union?

LISK: No, my father, uh, joined the union about the time I was born.

STONEY: Uh-huh, yes, I see.

LISK: I was born 27 December '31.

STONEY: Yeah, that – so that it was just after that then, yeah.

LISK: Right.

STONEY: OK, just a moment. Uh, we're going to turn you back to the gentleman here.

LISK: Uncle Frank, Mother's brother.

MILLER: Dick, How are Joanne and all of them doing?

LISK: Doing fine.

MILLER: Yes.

LISK: Uh, Lynn, uh, is practicing law in Little Rock -

MILLER: Yes.

LISK: - and he is, uh, in college.

MILLER: Yeah.

LISK: Um, but everybody is doing fine.

MILLER: Well, Mama is doing all right, is she?

LISK: Say again?

MILLER: Mama is doing all right. I call your wife 'Mama.'

LISK: Yeah, yeah, Mama is doing fine.

MILLER: That's good.

00:16:00

LISK: Mama is doing fine.

MILLER: Well, Pat and them maybe come down next month, aren't they?

LISK: Yeah, they're planning on coming down.

MILLER: Yeah, yeah.

LISK: We're looking forward to having them with us.

MILLER: Yeah. Oh, I told them you could give them a lot of information about your dad's (inaudible).

LISK: I'd be –

MILLER: I don't even remember. How far did your daddy go out? I know one thing – he self-educated himself a lot.

LISK: Oh, yeah.

MILLER: How'd he go in school? You remember, Dick?

LISK: Say – how high did Daddy go to school?

MILLER: Yeah.

LISK: Sixth grade.

MILLER: Yeah. Did you get that? Did you get that? Yeah, he had – same as a lawyer. He studied law and everything and, uh, so the – I didn't know. I didn't know whether your daddy finished high school or what.

LISK: Daddy – Daddy started the seventh grade but had to quit school right after school started.

MILLER: Yes, uh-huh, and so I didn't know, but I told him I know one thing – he self-educated himself. He knowed law just the same as a lawyer -

LISK: Yeah.

MILLER: - because I was up in Greensboro one time with that old [patent?] we had and, uh, Herman Cone was in there, you know, the owner of the mill, and, uh, the 00:17:00telephone rang and it was, uh, Red over there. Somebody called him and told him that Red was over that old hotel and said – you know, old Herman said, "Get somebody over there right away. That d-Red will have him signing a paper before he knows what he's signing." (laughter) You know, old Matt – he didn't know Red was my brother-in-law, you know -

LISK: Yeah.

MILLER: - and, uh, oh, you'd just snort, then going on. Remember Daddy was sitting there. He was my brother-in-law and my Daddy's (laughter) son-in-law.

LISK: Yeah.

MILLER: Yeah. Well, Dick, uh, I guess they got enough of me -

LISK: OK.

MILLER: -- uh, talking to you here and so are you going to come up here when they talk to you?

LISK: Well, if they want me to come up, we can work it out. I'll be glad coming to spend the day with them.

MILLER: Well, I think they'll work it out with you.

LISK: OK.

MILLER: Yeah, and so, Dick, have a good night and a good day, and we'll talk to you later.

LISK: OK, bye bye and God bless.

00:18:00

MILLER: OK, the same to you. Yeah, you talk about (inaudible) boy. He got all tired. The doctors and the (inaudible) and all were on him. Your daddy went to the sixth grade but yet he knows as much law as a lawyer down here. That's right.

STONEY: He was telling me that the happiest day of his father's life was when he came in with a letter saying that he got his PhD.

MILLER: Yeah, (laughter) when, Dick -- his boy --

STONEY: Yeah, that's --

MILLER: - got the PhD degree.

STONEY: Yeah.

MILLER: Yeah. He practiced church in England – Thomas's boy did -

STONEY: Uh-huh, yeah.

MILLER: - and I think he went to school over there – college there some in England.

STONEY: Well, I think –

MILLER: He's got all kinds of degrees.

STONEY: See, this is going to make a nice circle -

MILLER: Uh-huh.

STONEY: - because, another thing that –

(telephone rings)

MILLER: Excuse me.

STONEY: Yeah, sure.

MILLER: Hello. Well, I wondered if you'd got off. Well, I'm up here banging out. Let me call you back later. There are folks here and you've got them 00:19:00talking to Dick and they clipped and they're taping what he said and all. I'll – oh, OK, I'll talk to you later on. Bye bye.

STONEY: But, you see, so many people have been almost ashamed of the people – of being associated with people in the union, see -

MILLER: Mm-hmm.

STONEY: - and this is a very clear case of the exception. So, I want to make that loop. That's what I'm trying to get here.

MILLER: Yeah, I know what you're talking about.

STONEY: Yeah.

MILLER: Now, you take Red, like I said, went to the sixth grade, but he had pictures – his daddy would sit with at an event. He sat with – he knew the Congress, senators, or like, that, you know, with –

STONEY: Also –

MILLER: Uh, well, he could talk with them just –

STONEY: I'm sure, you know, but he was telling me about how his father went to night school and learned textile engineering.

MILLER: Yeah, and his father – I'll tell you about Red. Red had a bunch of 00:20:00law books and all at home there, and he studied.

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

MILLER: Yeah, he had to, to get in where – in the union, you know, to work himself up.

STONEY: Yeah.

MILLER: But, he knew how to draw up contracts and things like that with the mill company. See, that's why old Herman Cone wanted this fellow to get a lawyer to get old Henry [O'Dell?].

STONEY: Right.

MILLER: Red would have him sign the contract that he had drawn up before he knew what he was signing, yeah. He was a smart boy and, uh, you take Mr. Stoney – a lot of boys didn't even finish high school but they went somewhere in life.

STONEY: Mm-hmm, sure, yeah.

MILLER: That's right. They went somewhere.

STONEY: And, let's be fair about it, sixth grade then was – you knew a lot more than you do in sixth grade now.

MILLER: Oh, yeah, yeah.

STONEY: You know what I mean.

MILLER: Uh-huh. Oh, Lord, yeah. They're coming out of college now. They can't even write their own name, hardly. It's a shame.

STONEY: Yeah.

M: Hey, Dad?

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

00:21:00

M: We're working on your mike as well.

STONEY: Yeah. One of the reasons we're so interested in talking with Red's son –

MILLER: Yeah.

STONEY: - is that a lot of people have been ashamed even to be associated with the organization back then –

MILLER: Uh-huh.

STONEY: - because of the climate of opinion that's been set up by the power structure, and here's an example of a fellow who has – who's proud of his father and has very – and knows why he should be proud of his father. So, that's – we're trying to make that loop.

MILLER: Oh, yeah, well, see, uh, Red was fired and blackballed.

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

MILLER: You know what I mean when I talk about blackball?

STONEY: Yeah.

MILLER: He couldn't get a job nowhere, see?

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

MILLER: But, the union just took him right on and gave him a job as an organizer and put him to work, and he went to work and built himself up in the union, see? Yeah. And just say, for instance, (inaudible) vote to know myself, but I never 00:22:00finished high school. But, maybe, sometime I get a chance I'll show you the building I built up yonder. The Lord let me; big, nice brick church on an acre of grass, got a big fellowship hut back there -

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

MILLER: - and, yet, I've done what some of the fellows that finished college and seminary have never done.

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

MILLER: To tell you the truth, I was making more money than some of them (laughter) when I bricked – see? It's whether a man wants to get ahead in life or not.

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

MILLER: You know, you take a lot of people and you take a lot of people that's in the cotton mill. That's all they wanted to do.

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

MILLER: They never wanted to get any higher. They've ran -- the man, going to the mill, a young boy going to mill as a sweeper. That's all he wanted to do with the rest of his life for the rest of his life. I wouldn't like that. I 00:23:00went in as a sweeper but I wanted to get up higher than that. So, I did get up to head loom-maker in the mill.

STONEY: well, didn't they buy a lot of those people off from being in the union by saying, uh, "We're going to give you a little better job if you tell on other people or report things?"

MILLER: Well, if they did around here, I don't know anything about it.

STONEY: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

MILLER: I don't know anything about that but people were afraid to talk to just anybody about the union because you would have some go out to the office or go out and think that they was getting in with the -- you see, uh, some of the cotton mill people, uh, like any other group, if I squeal on this one or that one, you know, then they'll think more of me and they'll promote me up, you see, like that, and so you didn't know who hardly to talk to -

STONEY: Hmm.

MILLER: - because my overseer told me his own self, said, "Frank, you'd better watch out. See, we're good friends." He said, "You'd better watch 00:24:00out. They're talking about you out in the big office."

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

MILLER: And I said, "You mean to tell me that these people don't want no better than what they've got?" I said, "If they don't want no better than what they've got, then I quit." I did. I just stopped. But, see, they was out there talking to the super and them and my overseer out there and he feared what was going on and all. He just gave me a warning, see?

STONEY: Was that a trouble for the union -- the snitches?

MILLER: That's right, yeah. See, now, uh, the time we had a meeting down at Hotel Concord. I'll tell you about that. There were some across the street over there watching. They were watching who went in the hotel and who didn't go in the hotel, and it mighty easy back then for them to find out something to fire you about. It didn't have to be the union. You just ain't doing your job right or you'd done something that wasn't right and here you go. So, 00:25:00that – they had a lot of fear in people –

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

MILLER: - say. It wasn't that they didn't want to. They had the fear in them because of losing their job and having to move. So, you know kind of how you'd feel in a position like that. They had you across the barrel in a way.

STONEY: Sure, yeah. Well, now, we were talking with a woman the day before yesterday, a good – she was a good, hardworking person. Uh, she went to night school. She got ahead, but her loyalty was not to her – to people she was working with but to the people who owned the mills and the wife of the owner who helped their club and so forth.

MILLER: Mm-hmm.

STONEY: Uh, why did some people go one direction when some another?

MILLER: Well, they thought they're going to get something out of the company, you know, if they, uh, went along with the company and did something, you know, get better jobs or they'd do a little something for 'em, and some people 00:26:00thought it was great for a – the owner of the mill to come by and shake their hand. I don't know why. I always said they put their britches on like I put mine. (laughter) Now, that's the truth that some people – it would tickle them to death that Fred entered the mill or why Fred didn't come through and stop and shake his hand, you know. Boy, he'd strut around like King Tut. (laughter) But, uh, I don't know. Been a long time ago.

STONEY: Yeah. What made you different?

MILLER: Well, I wanted -- I wanted something better.

STONEY: But, you didn't want to eat crow to do it, to get better, huh?

MILLER: I don't understand what you mean, uh –

STONEY: I mean, some of the people wanted to get better so they – so they kind of sucked up to the boss to make that jump.

00:27:00

MILLER: No, I didn't know. I – I felt like the union would make a better way forward -

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

MILLER: - as you say, if we had somebody doing talking for us. See, in a way, I had nobody to talk for me or the people in the – in the mill had nobody to talk for. But, I knew when we got a union in there, see, I'd done been taught that we'd have a – we could pick out a shop steward and the boss finked and they'd tell you you're far over your head thing and you could take him to the shop steward or go for your shop steward and he'd bring it to the board and let them to decide whether you should be fired

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

MILLER: - or not. So, I found out lead things, you say.

STONEY: Where did you get your ideas about a union?

MILLER: Well, my dad always believed in a union, though he never was in one. They never had one.

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

MILLER: But, (laughter) he always believed in it -

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

MILLER: - and then there was my brother-in-law. He got into the union, you see? But, I always 00:28:00believed in, uh, trying to do something to better myself.

STONEY: But, you got into the union right after that big fuss down in Gastonia where the Communists came in and organized things and so, it was kind of associated with radicalism and foreign people and so forth.

MILLER: Well, uh, the one that was around here wasn't like that. As far as I know, we didn't -

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

MILLER: - have no foreigners in here, you know.

STONEY: Hmm.

MILLER: If we had, I suspect that would have been about the – that was stopped (laughter) about there, yeah. But, uh, the old boy that come to see me (telephone rings) – uh, excuse me. Hello. Bye-bye. I want to order another daughter. She keeps check on her dad. (laughter) Yeah, but –

00:29:00

STONEY: So, the – the – we're talking about, uh, the idea of unionism being associated with Communism.

MILLER: No, they didn't even, uh – back along when the union was going on, there wasn't too much Communism like there was a little later on.

STONEY: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

MILLER: We didn't even think about Communism. No, I was thinking about the union helping us.

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

MILLER: No, I don't believe in Communism at all.

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

MILLER: I don't believe in that and, uh, but what I was wanting to see is somebody to talk for us –

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

MILLER: - see? See, we had nobody to talk for us –

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

MILLER: - in the mill, and I knew if a union got in there, though it might have costed a little something, but I believed that it got us better wages and would have had somebody that stood up for us.

STONEY: Well, now, we were talking with, uh, uh, an owner recently and he said these people who worked in my mill were mountain people. They were independent, 00:30:00Scotch-Irish, independent and they wanted to speak for themselves. They didn't believe in a union.

MILLER: Well, now, uh, not at first, but later on, there were a lot of folks did – not a lot but they had a lot of people from up in and around Wilkesboro and West Jefferson and all come down to the Cannon Mill and went to work. We didn't have all of that over here at the Brown Mill. But, there's some – you know, they didn't come in droves but they about starved to death, I think, up in the mountain and had – looking for something better -

STONEY: Yeah.

MILLER: - when they came down here and, uh, got jobs at the mill, and then another thing that, uh, hurt the union, too – you see, the people in the country begin to come in town and work in the mill. Well, you're the man out in the country. He had a farm, and he's working in the mill, too. I had one 00:31:00man tell me that he did now but he had never spent a check that he drawed at the mill. He was making his living on the farm. He was putting all he made in the mill in the bank, he said. So, there's another thing that hurt. The farmers – they didn't go along, most of them, didn't go along for it because they were working their farm plus drawing a salary in the mill.

STONEY: Well, we have a number of letters written to Washington –

MILLER: - Mm-hmm.

STONEY: - complaining, saying, uh, "Why is it that they fired us and keep hiring all those farmers?"

MILLER: (laughter) So, the farmer could continue to work his farm and work in the mill and save that money, you see? He could save his money he made at the mill. As one farmer told me, he said he had never spent a check or even cashed a check since he'd been working in the mill. He'd just take it and put it in the bank.

STONEY: Hmm.

MILLER: So, that's why a lot of them were being hard. So, they know they can 00:32:00be independent on their farm, and they didn't have to worry about being far and run off of the mill. They still had their house.

STONEY: I wonder if you've heard this kind of thing. We know that during the Depression, particularly the earlier part of the Depression, there were so many people looking for jobs –

MILLER: Mm-hmm.

STONEY: - and with the boll weevils so bad around here, many more people had to leave the farm, and so there were evidently a lot of people outside the mill every morning looking for jobs.

MILLER: Oh, there were. I looked out the window a lot of times on a Monday morning. You'd see 30, 40, 50 people out there, uh, standing around trying to find a job. I used to walk down to the railroad and see boxcars come by, people from up north coming down this way hunting jobs and people down this way going up north, hunting jobs. It was hard to find one. Things were bad along then, yeah.

STONEY: Some – one fellow said, uh, that he was complaining about something and his foreman said, "Look, son, there's a barefoot, hungry guy out there 00:33:00at the gate, ready to take your job."

MILLER: Well, that's about right, too -

STONEY: Yeah.

MILLER: - and another thing about it, too, it wasn't the boll weevils so much with the farmer coming in here. He's just making more money.

STONEY: Hmm.

MILLER: When I was a young fellow, just a boy, living on the farm, there wasn't no farmer worked in the mill, and they'd want some of them – one called me, "Linny, the lint dog." See, when we moved out in the country, my dad had 103-acre farm out there, and, uh, I think my dad had a part in some of them people coming back to the mill to work. He started coming back to the mill, working in the wintertime some, you know, and he didn't have to depend on the mill.

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

MILLER: My dad didn't have to depend on the mill, yet he was a union man. But, there wasn't nobody trying to get a union then.

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

MILLER: But, uh, we were making our living out on the farm. So, these folks from the farm come to town. It wasn't 00:34:00so much the boll weevils. It was the money, see?

STONEY: I met my – the beginning of the Depression for me in my own head, I was, uh, I grew up in Winston-Salem and I was selling, uh, magazines in –

MILLER: Mm-hmm.

STONEY: - the offices, you know, as a kid –

MILLER: Yeah.

STONEY: - just in high school, and I remember being in a stockbroker's office. This was before the crash -

MILLER: Mm-hmm.

STONEY: - and he was in the Reynolds Building, and I looked down out of the window, down into the street about four – five stories below, and the whole block was full of people, and I found out that that was a – people had come from all over western North Carolina because the word had gotten out that Reynolds was going to hire about 20 more people -

MILLER: Uh-huh.

STONEY: - and people had come from whole Piedmont, North Carolina, yet crowding in.

00:35:00

MILLER: You know, Mr. Stoney, now, a lot of people said that they had a rough time and the Hoover days the hardest time they ever had, they say. But, I'm not saying they'd call you my daddy. He's a little bitty fellow like you. But, he said, "Son, if you don't make but a dollar, save a dime up." He told me he had a better time during the Depression than any other time. He had saved him a little money.

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

MILLER: Well, he could go to the store and buy a dozen eggs for a nickel.

STONEY: Hmm.

MILLER: (laughter) See? He had a little money to buy with.

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

MILLER: People that had saved a little bit of money, when the bottom fell out, well, they could buy stuff for a little or nothing.

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

MILLER: See what I mean? Well, he didn't have much. When he died, he didn't have nothing, you know, except his home.

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

MILLER: That's all. But, he always had a little money in his pocket. He always tried to save a little money. So, when, uh, the crash came and the mill was 00:36:00shutting down and all, he had a little money to carry him through, and he said, "I got along better than I ever did." (laughter) Oh, he was a red hot Republican, you know.

STONEY: Republican? (laughter)

MILLER: Yeah, I'm not either one.

STONEY: What's a Republican doing in North Carolina?

MILLER: No, he was a red hot one. Oh, we got a –

STONEY: No, back – back then, I mean. (laughter)

MILLER: We've got a strong one now, right?

STONEY: Yeah, yeah.

MILLER: Used to, they didn't allow them to be around here or –

STONEY: Yeah. Well, I know, uh, I spent part of my childhood in Yadkin County -

MILLER: Yeah, I wore my (inaudible).

STONEY: - and that was a Republican – oh, everybody there voted Republican.

MILLER: Yeah. Well, that's what my daddy would.

STONEY: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

MILLER: I guess that's where he got it from. (laughter) Yeah, he was a strong Republican.

STONEY: Yeah.

MILLER: Now, he didn't get out and work in the party or anything like that.

STONEY: But, that – I think that's kind of traditional. They've been Republicans ever since –

MILLER: Oh, yeah,

STONEY: - the Civil War sometime.

MILLER: Growed up at it.

STONEY: Yeah, that's right.

00:37:00

MILLER: I never understood the colored people in a way. Abe Lincoln is the one that – the president –

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

MILLER: - the Republican that set them free -

STONEY: Yeah.

MILLER: - you know. Most of them now vote Democratic. (laughter)

STONEY: You know why?

MILLER: It's all because the Democrats try to help more. I've said this myself.

STONEY: Sure.

MILLER: I've said this myself.

STONEY: They've got good sense.

MILLER: The Republican Party – it's the wealthy men. You take Bush and Reagan. I'll say this, my son, now, he's a Republican; got a good education. But, I told him, and he agreed with me, that Bush and Reagan are just the millionaire's man because it's all for the big men. But, I don't believe this fellow running right now for president is, uh, is, a presidential, uh, hope or I just don't – I don't like his, uh, thinking. I don't like his – well, his looks as a president (laughter) to tell you the truth.

STONEY: Yeah, I know what you mean.

MILLER: Yeah.

STONEY: Well –

00:38:00

MILLER: Now, that fellow's vice president, I believe, would have made a better president than –

STONEY: You mean –

MILLER: - the one who's running for president.

STONEY: You mean Quayle?

MILLER: No.

STONEY: Oh, you mean –

MILLER: I'm talking about the Democrat.

STONEY: Oh, you mean, ah –

M: Al Gore.

STONEY: Al Gore.

MILLER: AL Gore.

STONEY: Yeah, I'm with you.

MILLER: Yeah, I say –

STONEY: OK.

MILLER: I think he'd have made a better president –

STONEY: Yeah, yeah.

MILLER: - than the one – the boy that's running.

HELFAND: George, I just have one question.

STONEY: Yeah, OK.

HELFAND: Just lean over. What is he – you know, what does he think the, uh, the impact has been 57 years later since they didn't get the union in –

STONEY: Fifty-nine years, yeah, yeah, yeah.

HELFAND: Fifty-nine years, of not being – since they weren't able to talk for themselves.

STONEY: Mm-hmm, yeah, yeah.

HELFAND: Since he wanted to be able to talk –

STONEY: What - what she's wondering about is –

M: Play this if it's your question.

HELFAND: Your question.

STONEY: The – four –

HELFAND: He wanted to talk for himself.

STONEY: OK. You say that you wanted to be in a union so you could talk for yourself and you didn't get it.

MILLER: Well, I wanted to be in there so I'd have somebody to talk for me -

STONEY: That's right, yeah.

MILLER: - right, because I can talk for myself but that wouldn't do me a bit of good.

STONEY: Yeah, yeah,

00:39:00

MILLER: As the bald man said, you're fired. I'm barred. You know what I mean?

STONEY: Yeah.

MILLER: I never was fired but he could have said that.

STONEY: And what was – what resulted from that – your not having a union, not having somebody to speak for you?

MILLER: Well, the result was that, uh, uh, you just done what they told you. You had to do what they told you to do.

STONEY: Well, now, here we are, 59 years later. Uh, there has been almost no union in textiles.

MILLER: Mm-hmm.

STONEY: What effect do you think that's had on this town, for example, Kannapolis?

MILLER: Well, I'll tell you the truth. I just don't know but I'm going to tell you this. Well, I think it's practically the same way it was back when I was coming along. They've got the people scared to death. The colored people in the Cannon Mills are not what's helping to push [states?]. But, they still [threaten?] their job and, like I say, you don't have to mess up or do 00:40:00something, you know, join a union to get fired.

STONEY: They will find another –

MILLER: They can always find an excuse to get shut on, you'd say. That's the way the old thing's been rocking for years and years.

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

MILLER: That's why the Cannon Mills are not organized right now. That's why they didn't win at the last election. It's because (laughter) – you see, they always know how to find something, and another thing, too about Cannon Mills right now. The reason they're going stronger with union now and never have – they ain't all in Cannon Mills. Up there, you've got a lot of farmers, like you said. You've got a lot of different people from outside on Kannapolis, not living in the Cannon Mills housing, you see. So, they -- they can vote union and if they farm, they've still got their home to live in.

STONEY: They've also got their car payments and their house payments –

MILLER: Yeah.

STONEY: - and all those other expenses.

00:41:00

MILLER: But, they don't blackball them now, like they did when Red come out. They may farm but they go down here somewhere else, maybe, and find him a job, yeah –

STONEY: I've got –

MILLER: - and a lot of these old boys in the mill, you see, a lot of them – they learned to do mechanic work and stuff like that -

STONEY: Mm-hmm.

MILLER: - on the side. Instead of one getting far, he comes out, he goes out here and opens him a shop or something. See what I mean?

STONEY: Don't be too sure that they don't blackball them now.

MILLER: (laughter) Well, if they ever get shit out of there, they do blackball you. That's right. They've got you on their list at the mill. If they ever get shit on you, they've got your name on the list, yeah. But, now, my, uh, first wife's uncle, he led a picket line down at the Gibson Mill where were, had about 200 in it. Well, they fired him. I might have told you about this, and he went up to the mountains. I believe he left here and went to the mountains 00:42:00and married a woman in the mountains, finally come back down here, and they wouldn't give him a job. One day, he was up town and he walked out and went to Charlie Cannon's house, rung his doorbell. The butler comes to the door, and my wife's uncle's name was Ed. He preached some, too, and he was a self-educated man, and he said he'd like to speak to Mr. Cannon. The butler said, "Wait just a moment," and he went back and said, "Come right on. Follow me," and he led him out on the sun porch at the Cannon House, down here in town. Old Ed told me – he said, "I didn't have but one cigarette and I offered it to him. I said, 'You know, I offered you my last cigarette?'" (laughter) Ed said, "We sat there and talked a long time, now." Ed was a self-educated man. He could talk, see, and so he told Mr. Cannon – he said, "I come by here to see if I can get a job back down at the mill where I'd 00:43:00worked there." He said, "Yes, sir, Mr. [Kinley?], you can get your job." He said, "There'll be one there tomorrow for you if you want to go to work." Old Ed told me – he said he went on, had his wife back at dinner the next day and he went down in the mill and the superintendent saw him. "Hey, Ed," he said, "Got a job for you." (laughter) He said, "I know you've got a job for me," and "What day do I want to go to work and what shift I want to work on, see, and he went to work. (laughter) Yeah.

STONEY: Yeah.

MILLER: Charlie called and said, "Put him back to work." See?

STONEY: Well, it's interesting that you – that those of us who weren't in the mills can be completely ignorant of what really went on.

MILLER: Mm-hmm.

STONEY: I was reading the, uh, Charlotte Observer recently and I found, in the middle of a story, news about my own hometown, Winston-Salem, and it said on the 00:44:00sixth of September that the Flying Squadron came to, uh, Winston-Salem, closed down Arista Mill and then went on to Hanes Knitting Mill -

MILLER: Hosiery Mill.

STONEY: - Hosiery Mill, where they were met by civic officials with machine guns, tear gas, and other weapons and were discouraged in my own hometown. I knew nothing about this. I had no idea that kind of thing was happening.

MILLER: When Reynolds Tobacco Company organized, it was organized.

STONEY: Reynold Tobacco Company was not organized at that time.

MILLER: It was.

STONEY: No, no. But, this was – I had no idea that this kind of thing was going on.

MILLER: Yeah, well, a lot of things went on back then that people don't realize.

STONEY: Yeah.

MILLER: That's right. Well, Brother Stoney –

STONEY: Thank you.

MILLER: - don't you think this is long enough for tonight?

[audio ends at 44:46]