(Dialogue begins at 47:57)1:00
E. O.FRIDAY: Last night you know I forgot to tell you about what happened overin Dallas way back in 1800.
GEORGE STONEY: Uh-huh.
FRIDAY: From a black woman.
GEORGE STONEY: Uh-huh.
FRIDAY: While she was in jail the jailer got her pregnant and then hung her (inaudible).
GEORGE STONEY: Oh God.
FRIDAY: He said, “Did you forget about that?” and I said, “I had forgotabout. (Inaudible)
GEORGE STONEY: OK. Good.
FRIDAY: I can sit down and think up a lot of things, you know.
GEORGE STONEY: Sure. I just talked -- I just talked with my hometown, Winston,Salem. I was up there two days ago. We’re going to be doing some shooting up there where a lot of things happened in the early 30s.
FRIDAY: My grandson lives there; he’s a fireman. He built a new home upthere, a split level. He’s a fireman.
GEORGE STONEY: Winston Salem?
FRIDAY: Yeah. And his wife she works in (inaudible).
GEORGE STONEY: That’s another big change, you know. Used to be no black49:00fireman at all.
FRIDAY: Well that’s where they had that race riot years ago in Winston Salem.
GEORGE STONEY: Winston Salem is that where they had it?
FRIDAY: That was back in about 18 --
[break in recording]
FRIDAY: -- 50 today. But I hadn’t played all summer.
GEORGE STONEY: Sure. OK.
M1: I couldn’t make 70 on two holes.
GEORGE STONEY: When we fill up the cart we’ll come there.
FRIDAY: I’m going to get the cart. Be right back.
GEORGE STONEY: OK. Good. That’s when you realize his back is bad -- when hegoes up the steps like that.
JAMIE STONEY: Mm-hmm.50:00
GEORGE STONEY: God. Do they need all that stuff?
JAMIE STONEY: What? The cart? Yup.
GEORGE STONEY: What a beautiful course.
FRIDAY: It’s nice. Real nice. Good to see you. I have never met no one as51:00fine as y’all.
GEORGE STONEY: Oh you’re flattering. I can say the same thing.
FRIDAY: And Miss Judy, what’s her name?
GEORGE STONEY: Judy Helfand.
FRIDAY: Yeah. And she’s so nice.
GEORGE STONEY: She’s terrific, isn’t she?
FRIDAY: Yeah. She’s real nice.
GEORGE STONEY: She’s terrific.
FRIDAY: But you don’t find --
GEORGE STONEY: -- and smart.
FRIDAY: You don’t find people like that every day in Atlanta.
GEORGE STONEY: She’s really smart too.
FRIDAY: I’ll tell you about -- before we go -- about when they hung this blackwoman in Dallas over there. I didn’t -- my daddy told me about it and his daddy told him -- George, Jr. -- his name George Jaggers, Jr.
GEORGE STONEY: Uh-huh.
FRIDAY: -- and I’ll introduce you to him when you get out here.
GEORGE STONEY: OK.
FRIDAY: Yeah, they locked this woman up and while she was locked up the jailergot her pregnant and they hung her while she was pregnant, about six months along. 52:00
GEORGE STONEY: This gentleman is going to be your partner?
GEORGE STONEY: Maybe you could introduce us.
GEORGE JAGGERS JR.: They had wanted to take you --
JAMIE STONEY: He’s volunteering to caddy today.
FRIDAY: That’s George Jaggers, Jr., a retired principal.
GEORGE STONEY: I’m pleased to know you. I’m George Stoney.
JAGGERS: What’s your name again?
GEORGE STONEY: George Stoney.
JAGGERS: George Stoney?
GEORGE STONEY: I’m from New York University. And we’re doing this filmabout textiles in the early 30s and this guy worked there so he’s been telling us all about it.
JAGGERS: Oh yeah.
GEORGE STONEY: And we just wanted to see how he’s spending his retirement.You haven’t quite retired, have you?
FRIDAY: I’ve been retired about 20 years, but I still do odd jobs, you know.
JAGGERS: Laying rock, and all that stuff.
FRIDAY: And glad to beat him playing golf.
GEORGE STONEY: OK. Let’s see if --
FRIDAY: See he ain’t as old as I am, I’ll be 80.
GEORGE STONEY: I see.
FRIDAY: I can beat him anytime. (laughter)
JAGGERS: Well, I’ll be fortunate enough to have birthdays. I’ll be 80.
FRIDAY: You have to tell him his name.
GEORGE STONEY: OK.53:00
JAGGERS: How do you want this? I’m not going to be your caddy and beat you, too.
FRIDAY: How about you be my caddy (inaudible). (laughter) I guess I can hit theball pretty good. I haven’t been out here but three times this year.
GEORGE STONEY: OK.
FRIDAY: Used to live over there on Lower Dallas Road.
JAGGERS: You know they run the funeral home? (inaudible)
FRIDAY: Yeah. I didn’t know they were the ones running that.
JAGGERS: you were talking to them. I didn’t know if you wanted to be a patronor what. (laughter)
GEORGE STONEY: Where’s the first hole?
FRIDAY: Right there.
GEORGE STONEY: OK. So we’ll just go on over there.
FRIDAY: Now tell that -- I forget his name --
GEORGE STONEY: James. James Stoney, my son.
(Audio tape seems to skip and pick up on another portion of an interview.)
JAGGERS: (inaudible) Dallas.
JAMIE STONEY: So you retired when?
JAGGERS: Eighty-nine. From 38 years in the school system and also 26 years with54:00the Gaston County Police. I retired as a captain with the Gaston County Police. I was a reserve officer but I worked on weekends and holidays and in the summer. I got to the point where I said, “I’d better get out of there.” People are getting meaner, you know, and I said, “I’ve been lucky in 26 years never pulled my gun but once in all those years and it was rough when you ran into one of your former students. “Oh he knows me,” and they would start pleading and begging and all that. That gets (inaudible) to me, but this drug thing, you know -- these people are crazed up on drugs sometime -- and I went to the Navy during World War II and didn’t have to kill anybody. I 55:00always dread it, wondered about that (inaudible). That the (inaudible) I’ve been in life. And luckily I didn’t have to do it because even if you’re in the war and do it -- I’ve seen veterans that never get over it. In fact my sister’s husband -- he was in Vietnam and he kept having these flashbacks and had it real bad.
GEORGE STONEY: Did you grow up here?
JAGGERS: Born in Dallas. I saw y’all Sunday but I couldn’t get out therebecause I work with the treasury -- I’m the clerk of the church -- and we had to be in there and make the deposits and all that.
GEORGE STONEY: Did your family have anything to do with textiles?
JAGGERS: My dad used to work at Firestone Mill. In fact he used to walk overthere from Dallas. He had no car so he walked to work. He’d get up about four o’clock in the morning and walk to work.
GEORGE STONEY: How far is that?
JAGGERS: How far is that E.O.?56:00
FRIDAY: Let’s see -- 12 miles.
FRIDAY: No. One way. You see from my house to Dallas is four.
JAGGERS: See he walked through the (inaudible) some kind of way by (inaudible) --
FRIDAY: That’s 12 miles.
JAGGERS: It was a good piece. I didn’t realize how good my parents were untilI grew up and was teaching school and saw how some of these kids are treated, you know, how their parents, you know? My parents made sure we had food in us before we went to school and now they have these -- the school I worked at I served breakfast -- and these mothers would get angry with us if it was a snowstorm or something where school opened an hour later you don’t serve breakfast ’cause it puts the cafeteria manager behind time in getting the lunch out. And they get angry. I (inaudible) one night I say, “If you was a real mother you’d feed your kids at home.” (laughter) That’s the way I always did. We didn’t have cafeterias, did we? 57:00
JAGGERS: There weren’t any cafeterias.
GEORGE STONEY: Did you ever think about going into textiles yourself? Workingin the factory?
JAGGERS: No. I worked in textiles in high school as a way to reach a certaingoal. I always wanted to be -- I thought I wanted to be a band leader. I came up during the big band era and in fact I collect records. I got Glenn Miller, Count Basie -- all the big well-known bands -- (inaudible) like Guy Lombardo, I got that. And he was in music and I went to school and majored in band myself and got out of it when I went to eastern North Carolina when I graduated from college. I taught down there eight years and came back home to Gaston County. When I came back here these parents said they couldn’t afford to rent instruments so I got out of band and kind of got out of art a while, but I started back painting. I paint some now; doing a lot of landscapes. I still 58:00play my horns. I got a tenor sax, alto sax, soprano sax, and a clarinet and I keep practice up on that. (inaudible)
FRIDAY: I (inaudible) to see some drawing. He’s the best, I think, in theUnited States. He can draw. That building, looks like you’re looking at the building. I mean he got his living room lined up. That’s what I want you to take the pictures of.
GEORGE STONEY: OK. Let’s play some golf.
FRIDAY: OK. All right.59:00
(sound of golf cart driving off)60:00
(inaudible dialogue away from mic)61:00
FRIDAY: Where did it go?
JAMIE STONEY: You guys on the first hole at Pinecrest?
FRIDAY: I beg your pardon?
JAMIE STONEY: You guys on the first hole at -- what was that one -- Pinecrestthat everybody goes to out here?
FRIDAY: This is I don’t know the name of this -- the name of this is Linwood62:00Springs. That’s the name of this golf course, Linwood Springs. This is real nice.
JAMIE STONEY: You guys are like you’re on the first at Augusta. (laughter)He’s got the jacket -- pants -- all we have to do is get him the jacket.
FRIDAY: That’s right.
GEORGE STONEY: So you’re going over there, right?
JAMIE STONEY: I’m just trying to get this in the background.
STONEY: Give me the key please.
JAMIE STONEY: Sure, what do you need?
STONEY: I just need a release form.
JAMIE STONEY: OK.
GEORGE STONEY: And I’ll catch you.
JAMIE STONEY: So why don’t you tell that story you were telling me beforebecause we’re away from the road and there’s a little less noise.
FRIDAY: I forgot what we were saying.
JAMIE STONEY: You were talking about that lynching?
FRIDAY: Oh yeah. Her name was Caroline [Chitwin?].
JAGGERS: Are you talking about the last person --
FRIDAY: -- in Dallas, that they hung --
JAGGERS: -- hanged in Gaston County.
FRIDAY: Yeah. Caroline Chitwin.
JAGGERS: Something like that.
FRIDAY: Yeah. She done something and they put her in jail and I think she doneaway with her baby -- throwed her baby in some boiling water or something like that. 63:00
JAGGERS: No. They said something about poison.
FRIDAY: Yeah, poison.
JAGGERS: Something they said accused of poisoning her baby.
FRIDAY: Yeah and then they put here in --
JAGGERS: That’s why she was in jail.
FRIDAY: She got pregnant; the jailer --
JAGGERS: -- pregnant.
FRIDAY: Pregnant. The jailer got her pregnant.
JAGGERS: I think that’s -- some people think that’s why they wanted to hangher because one of the jail personnel --
FRIDAY: -- got her pregnant. Yup. That was back in -- what -- 1800?
JAGGERS: I don’t know; I wasn’t around.
FRIDAY: It was somewhere along there; it’s been a long time ago.
JAMIE STONEY: My Dad just wants to get you to sign a release before you go andthen that’s it. So you all –
[break in viedo]
GEORGE STONEY: OK. Just need to get you to say we had your permission. OK.Just put your name and your address and telephone number and we can also let you know when this is going to be on. 64:00
FRIDAY: If I think of some more things I’ll --
GEORGE STONEY: OK. I appreciate it.
FRIDAY: But I want you to make a picture of some of those drawings. You cancall me when you (inaudible) and I’ll (inaudible) --
GEORGE STONEY: OK. Very good.
FRIDAY: -- and I’ll make him cook some steaks while you’re over there.(laughter) I’m going to birdie this hole. I’m going to birdie it.
JAMIE STONEY: I liked your line about hitting one of the ducks.
GEORGE STONEY: Thank you very much.
JAGGERS: He’s the only guy I ever played with that hit a fish. (laughter) Hehit a ball on a par 3 and it just barely hit the edge of the water in the back and there was a fish there and that fish popped up out of the water and flopped up on the bank.
FRIDAY: It was a bass; good enough to eat, too. (laughter)65:00
GEORGE STONEY: I mean I’ve heard of fish stories and I’ve heard of golfstories but this is the first time I’ve heard of a fish and a golf story. (laughter)
JAGGERS: He actually hit a fish. There’s another golf course there over on the mountain.
JAMIE STONEY: So what did you get a PGA and a bass master’s card. (laughter)Well, we’ll let you gentlemen go and finish your game.
GEORGE STONEY: Finish your game.
FRIDAY: Tell Judy I brought an extra pack of tobacco in case she wants an extrachew. (laughter) Keep in touch hear?
GEORGE STONEY: OK. We’ll keep in touch. Thank you.66:00
FRIDAY: We’re going to let them play through.
STONEY: He’s going to let them play through.
JAGGERS: (inaudible) skip across. He could skip them across the lake.
FRIDAY: There’s some geese going to fly in here sometime today.
JAGGERS: They’re still at that big lake over there.
FRIDAY: They stay out here. They’re big ’ole geese.
GEORGE STONEY: OK.
FRIDAY: All right, y’all. Take care now.67:00
(There is a segment here with golf cart motors, a lawn mower, weed whacker,birds flying overhead, etc. Audio resumes at 1:16.) 68:00
GEORGE STONEY: Goes out to visit a neighbor and he’d spend all afternoonfixing a fan.
JAMIE STONEY: She had a big huge ceiling fan and when they redid the ceiling thefella had it up with two wood -- sheetrock -- screws -- and only one was holding and it dropped right after a card party.
LUCILLE CLONINGER: That’s why I’m afraid of these.
JAMIE STONEY: -- and so they went out and got a new one so I spent about twohours that afternoon installing it.
CLONINGER: Well while you’re here you can put me some wall switches in.(laughter) I’m just kidding.
JAMIE STONEY: I spent a year doing nothing but trimming electric in houses.
CLONINGER: Really? Well this grandson -- great grandson -- no it’s mygrandson by marriage -- he says he can do anything. He did this paint and I think he done an extra good job of it.
JAMIE STONEY: The paper in here is nice, too.77:00
CLONINGER: My daughter done that. It’s done got dirty.
JAMIE STONEY: If she wants to come up and do my house because my wife ispapering while I’m out of town because I can’t --
CLONINGER: My grandson washed to there and we ran out of that (inaudible) stuffthat you spray on there and the dirt just runs.
GEORGE STONEY: Well why don’t we get in here and --
JUDITH HELFAND: She’s actually going to make some new cornbread.
GEORGE STONEY: OK. Fine.
CLONINGER: She’s going to take it with her.
HELFAND: We’re going to take the stuff she made this morning home with us.
GEORGE STONEY: Good. And while that you’re doing that, I’ll talk to youabout your time in the mill.
CLONINGER: I’d hate to tell you what I went through in that mill.
GEORGE STONEY: Well, come on. Let’s do it.
CLONINGER: Well, whoever (inaudible) start at.
HELFAND: Well we can talk while you’re cooking and you’re at the stove --
CLONINGER: I can’t cook -- I can’t do but one thing at a time. I’ve justgot a one-track mind.
HELFAND: Let’s try.
CLONINGER: (laughter) Let me lay this down.
GEORGE STONEY: OK.
JAMIE STONEY: So you’re going to have (inaudible) when you’re finished George?
CLONINGER: You want me to cook cornbread?
GEORGE STONEY: Sure.78:00
CLONINGER: I’ve got to wash my hands. I just got (inaudible); it’s not bad.I’m trying to keep my back turned to him.
GEORGE STONEY: How long have you been living in this house?
CLONINGER: 21 years. 21 years. My oldest grandson is 21 years old. He wasborn right after we moved down here.
GEORGE STONEY: How many children did you have?
CLONINGER: Eight. You ain’t forgot that have you? Eight of them. Andthey’re good kids. They don’t have the most education and all that but 79:00they’re really good kids to growed up and to have. I guess you got a sample of it in there. (laughter) I ain’t gonna make but a little bit.
GEORGE STONEY: OK. That’s fine.
CLONINGER: That’s all I got. My daughter gets it for me from a woman; shegoes to the mountain and gets it.
GEORGE STONEY: The water ground stuff?
CLONINGER: Yeah. Fresh ground.
JAMIE STONEY: I’m under orders from my wife to bring back a whole bunch ofcorn bread mix as well because we can’t get the good stuff up north.
CLONINGER: I can’t get that around here, either. I’ve got to get in therefrigerator. Most people don’t make their cornbread like me.
JAMIE STONEY: You’re going to have to give me your secret recipe.
CLONINGER: I told her I was just going to write it down and it wouldn’t fadenone but she didn’t want that.
JAMIE STONEY: Oh, you can write it down for me when I leave.80:00
CLONINGER: I’ll let you write it and you couldn’t read my writing. I putsugar in it too. And some milk -- I mean some oil.
GEORGE STONEY: You had eight children and you still worked in the mill? How didyou manage that?
CLONINGER: Well, the kids helped me a lot and then I usually hired -- well hehired people to stay with them but (inaudible) because it wasn’t the right kind. (laughter) I hate to say that, but you want it like it is.
GEORGE STONEY: So your husband was working in the mill; and you’re working the mill.81:00
CLONINGER: Yeah but he wasn’t much of a help. I’ve got to get some milk. Iwould make you a lot to take home with you but that’s all the cornmeal I’ve got -- good cornmeal. If I knew you was coming I would’ve bought some at the store.
GEORGE STONEY: What villages did you live in? So you were at the Eagle?
CLONINGER: At the Eagle. That’s where we went when we married. We livedthere until we moved down here. But I worked at other places.
GEORGE STONEY: What did you do in the mill?
CLONINGER: Spin. Worst thing in the world.
GEORGE STONEY: Why do you say that?
CLONINGER: Well if you don’t keep up with it you get in a hole and you have82:00trouble. And then they put us on more sides than we could run. Just different things like that. My brother-in-law was my section hand and he was mad at my sister and he’d take it out on me (laughter) and things like that. And then Mr. Waters was like that too. I’ve got to get my bread out.
GEORGE STONEY: Mr. Waters was your superintendent?
CLONINGER: He was another section man down there. They changed you know, nottoo often, but one would get too old or quit and they hired somebody else.
GEORGE STONEY: Well if you had trouble with your section hand, what did you do?
CLONINGER: I’d go and cry and go home. (laughter) That’s all I knowed to do.
GEORGE STONEY: Did you ever think about forming a union?
CLONINGER: Lord no. (laughter) I don’t know what is. Sure don’t.
GEORGE STONEY: Was there any talk about that when you were there?
CLONINGER: I always said when I retired I was going to write a book on how mean83:00people could be to you. My brother-in-law -- when he was section -- he was like that. And I went home and me and the kids was sitting around the supper table and my boss came out there begging me to go back. I told him I couldn’t work for him how he done me, so he said, “I done tell him and I’m going to tell him again,” but it wasn’t no better. He was sneaky like. If you’ve ever met sneaky people. I hope that don’t stick.
GEORGE STONEY: Well, what do you mean by sneaky?
CLONINGER: Behind the boss man’s back, you know, he’d do things and thendeny it. Things like that. And I was nervous anyway; he’d give me a hard time after we was married about three years and he was good for about three years; I don’t know what happened to him. He’s never been like himself and 84:00I struggled and kept him and kept the house and made their clothes and didn’t know nothing else until they all married off and gone and then I didn’t know what to do with myself. (laughter) Of course I was going to church all the time but he never would go. I love to go to church. And then I got sick and I ain’t been back in about two years but I sit down on Sunday morning and listen to it on TV.
GEORGE STONEY: When were you born?
CLONINGER: 1914. Fourteenth day of November.
GEORGE STONEY: Well one way or another God has been good to you.
CLONINGER: Oh I know. He blesses me going in and out all the time. I can’teven ask for nothing when I pray. I just say, “Thank you Lord for all the good blessings You give me.” He has really been good to me.
GEORGE STONEY: When did you go into the mill to work?85:00
CLONINGER: I was about 15. I learned at the Imperial. I learned with the lady,Miss Queen. She give me one side when I first learned to put up (inaudible). I kept that up and then she give me another one and finally I got four sides and made $4 a week (laughter) and then Roosevelt come, you know? We worked 12 hours too, we didn’t work no eight hours, we worked 12, but we got an hour to go home for dinner and my momma always had me macaroni and tomatoes and I loved them things better than anything.
GEORGE STONEY: Your mother didn’t work in the mills then?
CLONINGER: Oh yes, my poor momma did. After they moved to Mill Hill she worked.I’ll turn that off. See what I do when I talk.
GEORGE STONEY: So after they moved to Mill Hill, where did they come from?86:00
CLONINGER: South Point district. You know where that’s at?
GEORGE STONEY: No.
CLONINGER: Well, let me see.
GEORGE STONEY: But it was country?
CLONINGER: Yeah. It was country until we moved to the cotton mill. And wemoved to the Stowe Spinning and my brothers -- I had five brothers -- they helped put that machinery in (inaudible) down my daddy and she worked. Then we moved -- I believe we moved down to Eagle and they didn’t have that done so they helped do that.
GEORGE STONEY: Do you know why they -- your family -- moved from the country?
CLONINGER: Yeah. Momma didn’t want to live in the country anymore and mydaddy had a little store up there in front of the Stowe Spinning and he’d run that and she didn’t like being down there by herself. He would always watch -- I guess you know what that is -- on Saturday and Sunday night -- and he’d be gone. So they moved to the mill and that ruined it all. (laughter) Bad. 87:00
GEORGE STONEY: You’d rather be back in the country?
CLONINGER: Oh, that’s the reason I married him. He told me -- said he had anuncle that said when he got married if he’d come and live with him he’d give him everything he had and I ain’t never found that uncle yet. (laughter) I don’t know. It’s just been a wreck. I kept momma’s kids until I got old enough to go to work. My grandma stayed with us but I had to help her and all. It’s been a good life. A lot of things could’ve improved, but I realized my momma had 11 kids and then she got them all raised and she raised another from a baby up -- Nancy [Overkatz?] from Charlotte -- she loved her to death.
GEORGE STONEY: You’ve done pretty well. You had eight.
CLONINGER: Well, this sounds silly. I had eight and I wouldn’t take nothingfor none of them, but I didn’t know no other way. It was either that or take 88:00a (inaudible) and I didn’t know how to prevent it or anything back then so to keep peace, I … but they’re all good and they’re sweet. A little sassy mouth sometime, but I always let them speak their mind so I knew what they was doing. They didn’t know it but I did. (laughter)
GEORGE STONEY: How many grandchildren do you have?
CLONINGER: I’ve got 23 grandchildren and 20 great grandchildren, and anotherone on the way in September. But none of them don’t have over four. Some of them just has two and three. They learned the trick, you see, I didn’t know it. (laughter)
GEORGE STONEY: That’s what’s called feminine liberation.
CLONINGER: Well you know back then people didn’t know how to prevent things, Idon’t guess. I know my mother never did teach me nothing about it. Lord she 89:00had 11. She was a smart lady. She couldn’t read or write but she did good. She always told me to read my Bible and I tried to.
GEORGE STONEY: Did you ever -- did she ever work in the mill?
CLONINGER: Oh yes. She worked the mill all the time -- after we moved to thecotton mill she worked all the time. I wish she would quit pointing that thing at me. (laughter)
GEORGE STONEY: Can I taste some of this now?
CLONINGER: Let me get you some (inaudible). I hope it didn’t stick.
GEORGE STONEY: It’s sticking a little bit.
CLONINGER: You want me to get it out for you?
GEORGE STONEY: No. This is what I like -- the crust.90:00
CLONINGER: I like mine just about that thick and I started now and thought hemight like thick cornbread.
GEORGE STONEY: This is exactly what I like.
GEORGE STONEY: I like it when it’s hot and put butter on it.
CLONINGER: It’s great.
GEORGE STONEY: When I left home and went to Chapel we didn’t have cornbread athome. We had something called “spoon bread,” do you know what spoon bread it?
CLONINGER: I remember that.
GEORGE STONEY: Well that came from my mother’s side of the family and Kate isKentucky, but my father never had cornbread. My mother died when I was not quite five and so he’d kind of set what we ate.
CLONINGER: I used to get in a chimney corner and cry and pray for the Lord tolet my momma live until I growed up and have kids of my own and he did. He’s been good to me.
GEORGE STONEY: Well, when I went to Chapel Hill, I worked in the big dining halland we’d cook; they had big ovens, you know, they were cooking for 1000 -- 1500 -- students -- 91:00
CLONINGER: That’s what put me where I’m at. I went to camp -- church camp-- and they had bread pans, cake pans that long and every day I had to bake bread. I’d bake 500 biscuits one day and had to lift them pans. I was sick when I went up there; I shouldn’t have went but I did; I loved it. How long are you going to do that?
GEORGE STONEY: What we did at [Sweeney?] Hall -- we had huge, huge pans you know --
CLONINGER: That’s what these was -- I know they was maybe three feet long.
GEORGE STONEY: And before I served it I’d always cut off the corners thatwould narrow it --
CLONINGER: And eat them.
GEORGE STONEY: And eat them. (laughter)
CLONINGER: You’re good.
GEORGE STONEY: People I’m waiting on tables would say, “How come we neverget those corner pieces?” I would say, “I don’t know!” (laughter)
CLONINGER: That was a job up there. You made enough cornbread. They had a92:00bread machine; it wasn’t hard on that. But then you’ve got to dip it out in them pans with a bowl or big dipper and then you’ve got to pat it down where it be level. Boy every minute I got I went to my room and I laid down.
GEORGE STONEY: How much education did you have?
CLONINGER: Well, I completed the fourth grade; that’s what I done. I tell myyoung’uns now I know more than they do. (laughter)
GEORGE STONEY: Tell me about your school.
CLONINGER: Oh, let me see. Well when I went to school I had to wear old blockstockings and everybody else would be dressed up pretty.
GEORGE STONEY: That was your mother’s --?
CLONINGER: Well that’s the way we grew up. She didn’t know no better and wehad an old black cow; we called her “Black.” When I went to school I had to take her and tie her out in the morning. At dinner time I had to bring her back and water and then after I ate my dinner I had to take her back and tie her out and bring her home when I came home from school. And then I had to look after 93:00the little ones; help them get ready.
GEORGE STONEY: So you had a cow in the Mill Village?
CLONINGER: Yeah. And my daddy would tell me -- you know back then it snoweddeep and I’d have to wade down to that barn to milk that cow -- he’d say, “Lucille I’d go down and milk that cow for you but I just ain’t able.” There was a great big gulley down there and I think now Lord me if I had fell in that gulley they never would’ve found me. The snow was knee deep but the Lord took good care of me and brought me back out. Things like that.
GEORGE STONEY: I’m going to have some more of this.
CLONINGER: Well now you won’t want to eat no dinner.
GEORGE STONEY: Oh, watch me. (laughter)
CLONINGER: Why do you stay so slim, people? I don’t each much and I getfatter --
GEORGE STONEY: Well do you know one of my secrets? I’ve been swimming everymorning in the motel pool. 94:00
CLONINGER: I can’t swim. I’m scared to death of water.
GEORGE STONEY: Why?
CLONINGER: Because. I’m scared of water. Now, I take a bath, don’t get mewrong. (laughter) I like water but I never do like to go and swim. All my kids like it -- they love to go swimming pool.
GEORGE STONEY: Wasn’t there a swimming pool down at the Eagle?
CLONINGER: Nah. Well there’s one down there but you’d have to -- after thelast few years we lived down there they built one -- but you had to pay so much to go in it.
GEORGE STONEY: What about that swimming hole down at the bottom of the hill?
CLONINGER: The River?
GEORGE STONEY: One of the Michaels took us down there and showed us -- rightnear the spring.
CLONINGER: My baby boy used to slip off and go down there and he’d scare me todeath. I’d get out and holler and call him. He’d come running up through there, “Mama, here I am.” (laughter) He knowed he’s going to get a whooping going down there.
GEORGE STONEY: One of the Michael boys took us down there the other day showingus --
CLONINGER: Which one?
GEORGE STONEY: Um.95:00
GEORGE STONEY: Harvey Michael.
GEORGE STONEY: One of the young ones.
CLONINGER: I haven’t seen him in a long time. I know Dick and Jack.
GEORGE STONEY: He took us down there --
CLONINGER: Their mother sure was good to me when I was having my babies, I tellyou. She would come down and make up bread for my babies. And she was sick herself.
GEORGE STONEY: Well, that’s what we want to know about -- how you managedthings in the Mill Village -- so could you tell us a little more about that?
CLONINGER: Well, I give the kids a dime for their allowance every week(laughter) and they thought they was rich. They could buy a three-center and a piece of bubble gum and a nickels’ worth of candy. Boy they’d be waiting on me on payday. (laughter) They laugh about it now; you know people get like $10 and $15 now for allowance. They get them old pictures out and they (inaudible). 96:00
GEORGE STONEY: How did they -- how did you manage things like having babies --where did you --?
CLONINGER: I had all my babies at home. I felt all the pains until they knockedme out. That last one -- I didn’t even know he was in the world until way up in the day and my momma said, “Lucille, are you not going to look at that baby over there?” and I said, “What baby?” and they done cleaned him up and put him in the crib bed and I guess he thinks more of me today than every one of them. (laughter)
GEORGE STONEY: But who looked after you when you were having babies?
CLONINGER: My kids, most of them. And my mother walked from the Imperial overthere and she would do things for us.
GEORGE STONEY: Did you have a midwife?
CLONINGER: No I had a doctor -- Dr. Albright -- and Dr. [Presby?] and Dr.[Stru?] -- a different one -- Dr. Presby was out of town when Dr. Stru -- he was the best one I had on that, I think. And Dr. McAdams -- he was a good doctor. 97:00But Dr. McAdams is dead now and Dr. Stru and Dr. Albright, they’ve all gone on.
GEORGE STONEY: Were they paid for by the mills?
CLONINGER: Well you didn’t pay but $10 for them then.
GEORGE STONEY: But that was a lot of money then.
CLONINGER: Yeah, it was. It was a lot of money. No, we paid for them.
GEORGE STONEY: So the mill didn’t provide?
CLONINGER: No, they didn’t have no insurance. Sometimes they’d make up foryou when you got sick and things like that, but there was one good lady down there -- Miss London -- she always come and looked after me -- dressed me and the baby.
GEORGE STONEY: She was employed by the mill?
CLONINGER: No. She just did that down there in the village for people. She’sdead now.
GEORGE STONEY: Did you have -- did you have black people -- women -- coming intohelp you?
CLONINGER: I had one black lady that washed for me right before I had my last98:00baby. Her daughter works up here in Wachovia’s Bank -- drive-in bank -- and she’s gone, too.
GEORGE STONEY: But otherwise you -- who are the people that you said yourhusband -- said he hired some people to come in to help?
CLONINGER: I don’t know what the colored lady’s name was -- and my mommacame and helped me.
GEORGE STONEY: I see.
CLONINGER: And the neighbors -- my sister came one Sunday and stayed with me.
GEORGE STONEY: Did you like it in the Mill Village?
CLONINGER: No I never did like it down there. I don’t like it down herebecause it’s too close to the river; there’s too much mildew and stuff. But I’m going to stay here until I go on -- because I’m looking for a better --
GEORGE STONEY: Why didn’t you like it there?
CLONINGER: Well, it just wasn’t home to me, in some way or another.
GEORGE STONEY: Where would home be?
CLONINGER: I don’t know. I really don’t know. But I never did like to workthere because there’s -- there’s just a lot of things that went on down 99:00there and they run over me for it. I didn’t know it until these years I found it all out. Now I know why.
GEORGE STONEY: Why?
CLONINGER: Too late. (laughter) I ain’t going into that.
GEORGE STONEY: No?
GEORGE STONEY: Why not?
CLONINGER: Because it’s bad. Bad, bad. But we’ve always had plenty to eat.Never been cold. (inaudible) things.
HELFAND: You know we’ve been to a number of reunions of people who worked inmill villages -- or worked in the mills and lived in the villages -- and they all say the same thing. It was great and it was like a family, and it was great in the middle.
CLONINGER: Do you know the Walton’s? Do you ever watch them on TV?
GEORGE STONEY: Mm-hmm.
CLONINGER: We grew up like that. You didn’t -- you didn’t fight one anotherand fuss and cuss all the time. When one done anything to you, forgive them and 100:00then went on. But in this day and time -- we have our (inaudible) the last Sunday of this month up at Hickory Grove Park.
GEORGE STONEY: That’s your family?
CLONINGER: Uh-huh. Yeah we have it the last Sunday in August all the time, buta lot of them is gone. I’ve got pictures of them. I’ve got a little book; they wanted me to take care of it.
GEORGE STONEY: I’d like to see those. Could we see them now?
CLONINGER: Yeah. You get them to take them guns off of me.
GEORGE STONEY: Well, we’ll want to photograph you while you’re looking atthem, that’s all. OK?
GEORGE STONEY: I’ve got to get away from this cornbread otherwise I won’thave any appetite for the meal.
CLONINGER: I hope you do.
GEORGE STONEY: This is one up here; could I take it down?
CLONINGER: Yeah. Take it down.
GEORGE STONEY: OK. Come and tell me who these people are.
JAMIE STONEY: Wipe your fingers first.
CLONINGER: Just a minute. Let me find this book.
GEORGE STONEY: OK.101:00
CLONINGER: He let me put my picture books back up. He just likes this trim andhe’ll probably come by today and do that.
GEORGE STONEY: This is the last reunion?
CLONINGER: No. That’s one we had -- I guess 10 year ago. You want me to tellyou who they are? Well, that’s my baby brother that’s living and his second wife, and I think that’s my oldest sister back there. And this is my sister that’s gone, and that’s fatty me. And this is one of my sisters, Ruth, and then I think that’s Ned, my brother. What they did, they took all of our families separate. This is my oldest brother -- my oldest sister -- and this is their family. None of their kids will hardly come -- my oldest sister. 102:00
GEORGE STONEY: Now where do they live?
CLONINGER: She lives over in an apartment off (inaudible).
GEORGE STONEY: All these people live in North Carolina?
CLONINGER: Most of them. Some of them is dead and gone.
GEORGE STONEY: But they haven’t moved --
CLONINGER: This one’s dead, this one’s dead.
GEORGE STONEY: But they haven’t moved to New York and places like that.
CLONINGER: No. I’ve got one daughter in Columbia and one in Greenville.
GEORGE STONEY: So they stuck right around here then?
CLONINGER: Yeah. Most of them, my kids -- these are my brothers and sisters.
GEORGE STONEY: Let me look at this photograph up here for a minute.
HELFAND: Maybe she can tell us about it? Can we take it down?
GEORGE STONEY: OK.
CLONINGER: That’s where I loved the country; I picked out some others in here;you probably done saw them.
GEORGE STONEY: OK.
CLONINGER: I was going to bring them in there.
GEORGE STONEY: OK.
CLONINGER: That’s my cadet group I had at church. I taught over there for103:00about 40 years. And this is my family. I won that for having the most children at church on Mother’s Day.
GEORGE STONEY: When was this?
CLONINGER: Oh, it was years ago. Let’s see -- I should’ve dated them, but Ididn’t. This little boy here was about 5-year-old; it’s been about 62 years or something like that.
GEORGE STONEY: Sixty-two years?
CLONINGER: This is my oldest girl here and that’s my middle boy.
GEORGE STONEY: I thought this was you.
CLONINGER: No. She’s a little bit taller than me, and my oldest boy was inservice; I’ve got pictures of him somewhere. This is my nursery class if you want to look at them. There I am when I was young; it’s the only picture I’ve got of me.
GEORGE STONEY: How old were you here?
GEORGE STONEY: I’d recognize you.
CLONINGER: Would you?
GEORGE STONEY: Yeah. Sure.
CLONINGER: Well when they pulled my teeth they ruined my mouth. They cut my104:00gums off way up there, but Lord they felt better.
GEORGE STONEY: So this was 19?
CLONINGER: I was 19; now I’m 77. Be 78 in November. These are the ladies Iwork with.
HELFAND: So when you were 19 --
CLONINGER: There I am again with my nursery. These are great memories. Some ofthe little nursery nurseries.
GEORGE STONEY: Oh, yes.
CLONINGER: Oh we had a ball with them kids.
GEORGE STONEY: Well that’s a great satisfaction.
CLONINGER: Well then our pastors changed and he took our Sunday school away andstarted a children’s church. That lady helped me in a nursery; that one’s peeping over --
GEORGE STONEY: What church is this?
CLONINGER: First Four Square, Belmont. I like the pastor; I got nothing againsthim, but I never have figured out why he took the Sunday school away because 105:00what’s our church tomorrow going to be? There’s some more there. That’s -- he brought that little boy to the nursery; he’s my nephew and that’s the preachers grandson. And this is some more of them.
M2: (inaudible) when they was 16 years old and then (inaudible).
CLONINGER: There’s more of them. This lady helped me in the nursery, InezCollins. There’s more of them. These is mostly in the nursery. They was sweet kids. We got two or three that’s growed up when I first to teach them and they’re still in church over there. That’s me with mine and that little girl with them is deaf. 106:00
GEORGE STONEY: Oh that’s a nice picture.
CLONINGER: She’s growed up that little girl and is married and has two orthree kids. Her daddy sent her to deaf school; she’s really something else. These are cute. They are nursery kids. I think that’s cute, there.
GEORGE STONEY: Well I know how you feel because I’ve got a bulletin board overmy desk and it’s full -- not only of my own grandchild -- but a lot --
CLONINGER: You just got one grandchild?
GEORGE STONEY: That’s right -- but a lot of my students children.
CLONINGER: I bet he’s spoiled rotten? I don’t spoil mine. I don’t spoilmine. (laughter)
HELFAND: Maybe she could tell us a little bit about the time when the picturesin the mill village were taken?
CLONINGER: This? This one? I won that in church for having the most children107:00in church. The oldest boy was in service; he was overseas.
GEORGE STONEY: This was during the war?
CLONINGER: And I don’t know where he was at at the time. You ought to saw meleading all of them -- (inaudible) my kids growed up with these kids here. When our church started it was mostly Eagle kids but now this pastor tries to go uptown and get people. I believe he’s after the dollar. They pay him good; bought him a home, pays all his insurance and retirement and everything.
GEORGE STONEY: Back when you were working in the mills, did the mill managementcontribute to your church?
CLONINGER: Well that church wasn’t built down there -- I don’t know how manyyears before we moved down here -- maybe 10 or 15 years. All it (inaudible) 108:00first big money for it to start the church and they tore that one down and built the cement one and now they took that and made an eating place and they built a large auditorium; it’s pretty. One of them things.
GEORGE STONEY: Cost a lot of money.
CLONINGER: Yeah. They’re still paying on it. I bought some bonds, churchbonds. He did too and they done matured.
HELFAND: She mentioned downtown and uptown churches and the difference.
CLONINGER: If I had known y’all was going to do this, I might have had my hairfixed. (laughter) (inaudible)
GEORGE STONEY: Let me look at this picture here.
CLONINGER: OK. That old house is just about ready to fall down but I loved itthere. That was home.
GEORGE STONEY: Is it still there?109:00
CLONINGER: No. We went down and tried to find it and they tore it down and gotbig old river cabins built all down (inaudible). And that’s my daddy; that’s my mom and I got one sister, younger than her that wasn’t there -- and this is my baby brother; this is my sister Ruth; this is me; that’s Edith, the one who stayed; and this is my older sister, Esther. That’s Ray my brother. I had three brothers that wasn’t there; they was out skallewagging around.
GEORGE STONEY: So they were older than this boy?
CLONINGER: Oh yeah. They were older than him.
GEORGE STONEY: Do you remember how this picture got made?
CLONINGER: Yeah. They come down there and papa had us all out there and had it made.
GEORGE STONEY: Just a photographer travelling around?
CLONINGER: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I went to Burlington and my sister had one andshe took it out there and had me made one off it and I brought it home and 110:00there’s been two or three of them had got mine and had one made.
GEORGE STONEY: Sure.
CLONINGER: My baby boy had him one made.
GEORGE STONEY: It’s a wonderful picture.
CLONINGER: I think so too.
GEORGE STONEY: Now what we’d like --
CLONINGER: See our black stockings and her high-top shoes? The people didn’thave foot trouble like they have now.
HELFAND: You didn’t want to leave the country, did you?
CLONINGER: No. I loved it down there. I’d have probably been better off if Istayed there by myself. That old house was old. My brother is laughing about laying in the bed at night and seeing the moon through the cracks, but we never did get cold. My daddy always cut wood in the fall -- he and my brothers -- and hauled it up there and -- he always put a big long on the fire -- well it had a big bedroom on this side with a big fireplace and then a kitchen and then the dining room. It had a porch run out part of the way in the hall and over here 111:00we had a sitting room with a big fireplace and that’s where they shacked me up for a month with diphtheria. They wouldn’t let none of them come in; wouldn’t let me out. I got over it, though.
GEORGE STONEY: How old were you when you left the country?
CLONINGER: I was about eight-year-old.
GEORGE STONEY: Did you keep going back for a while?
CLONINGER: Yeah, we’d go back -- we went back me and two of my sisters maybe ayear ago and tried to find it. Now my baby brother said he could take us down there where it was at; it’s not there -- where it had been. But we never did go.
GEORGE STONEY: Well, I’m asking you that -- we’re trying to trace the waypeople got into the cotton mills and a lot of people came from the country.
CLONINGER: Well my daddy started running that little old store up there that’sStowe Spinning and then momma -- she got tired of the country because she didn’t want to stay there by herself -- and so she moved to the mill hill. I 112:00remember them buying an old Dodge car and he tried to get momma to learn to drive it. (laughter) Oh Lord; he bought her a fur -- one of these furs. They got along good for a while and then they went apart. But he was always good. He would never let us say anything about momma; he said, “That’s your mother.” He really taught us right.
GEORGE STONEY: Do you have any pictures of your mother with that fur?
CLONINGER: No, I don’t; I sure don’t. Now my oldest sister might have some.But her husband took a lot of her things; the Bible with all of our records in it and all -- and took it to the woman he lived with and just destroyed them.
HELFAND: You were telling me -- I think you said yesterday that you had yourbirth in the Bible and you had to prove it at the mill when you wanted to get some work? You didn’t have to bring your Bible to the mill office to get a job? 113:00
CLONINGER: No. You have to take it to get you a credit card for your checks. (laughter)
GEORGE STONEY: I’m going to put this back up.
CLONINGER: Do you want to see my Bible?
GEORGE STONEY: Yes. Thank you. Jamie -- just a moment -- let me put this backup; see if I can get it.
CLONINGER: This is the last one I bought before I got sick and didn’t get touse it. That’s the one I have right now. I like my Bible; the more you read the more you understand.
GEORGE STONEY: Well my father was a minister --
CLONINGER: He was?
GEORGE STONEY: -- used to read the Bible every morning --
CLONINGER: That’s the way I do mine.
GEORGE STONEY: -- I mean read to us at the table -- and very often --114:00
CLONINGER: I had to learn myself. I guess that’s where the trouble’s at.
GEORGE STONEY: We thought we were the most deprived children because he made ussit there and listen and every night he’d read something to us when we’d sit there at the table and we could hear our friends playing hide and seek and playing out in the street and so forth and he’d make us --
CLONINGER: Well, I tried to give thanks over the table, but I could never get itorganized while they was little. I finally said, “Well, I’ll just say it myself.” Lord knows my heart; he knows what I tried to do. This is --
GEORGE STONEY: Oh this is your record, huh?
CLONINGER: Well I’ve got two or three of them. I’ve got one in yonder.
GEORGE STONEY: Could we see that?
CLONINGER: I got one that’s tore up. If I can reach it --115:00
GEORGE STONEY: Oh you’ve got it, OK?
CLONINGER: Yeah. I tried to keep a record of it.
GEORGE STONEY: Oh, this is a big one.
CLONINGER: Yeah. My daughter wanted me to buy that one. She said, “Momma,I’ll read it if you buy it.” She never did read it. She was grown then. I think the birth is over about the middle of that one, and then I’ve got another one here. We moved around so everything is out of place; I can’t find it all.
GEORGE STONEY: Well, let’s see if I can find it here.
CLONINGER: I think it’s about middle ways.
GEORGE STONEY: Maybe it’s between the old and the new testament.
CLONINGER: I saw it when I first took it down.
HELFAND: Should I follow her?
GEORGE STONEY: Yeah, sure. Yeah, here it is.116:00
CLONINGER: My daughter took everything down. I don’t know where she the halfof it, but I’ll get it back into place one day.
GEORGE STONEY: I found it here.
CLONINGER: Did you?
GEORGE STONEY: Yeah. It was between the old and the new testament.
CLONINGER: Yeah, when I took it down I noticed that.
GEORGE STONEY: See there it is there. And then it’s over here -- see?
CLONINGER: I guess.
GEORGE STONEY: See? And here, all the births and marriages.
CLONINGER: I’ve got another one somewhere; it’s about like this and I letMiss Hilton have it and she put that tape on it --
HELFAND: Did that say she had a baby in 1934?
CLONINGER: Me? Don’t know. Probably so.
GEORGE STONEY: I’ll find it.