Rosa Mae King Murphy Interview 1

ROSA MAE KING MURPHY: [00:22:20] -- is a girl who has had the same back trouble that I've had. Same operation. But she said, "I'll never do it again. I'll just live with it."

GEORGE STONEY: Oh, boy. I bet. OK, we ready?

JUDY HELFLAND: Yeah, you know what, I've just got to [do one thing?].

GEORGE STONEY: Is that, uh -- I was born [rid?] once in Salem. I went to Chapel Hill. And I have made a lot films about the South. I've done research here, and written articles about it. And so, that's why the Southern States Manager's Council asked me to take this thing on.

MURPHY: Oh, I see.

00:23:00

GEORGE STONEY: And, uh, they'd been -- there's a consortium of people interested in this period of, of historic (inaudible), and have done books and articles and so forth. But they say more people will know about it if you do a film.

MURPHY: Mm-hmm.

GEORGE STONEY: And so that's the way we got involved.

MURPHY: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Well, I think that's right.

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah. OK.

JAMIE STONEY: Just (inaudible) a ways.

GEORGE STONEY: All right. Let's start by having you tell about how your family came from the mountains.

JAMIE STONEY: Dad, you have to watch this.

GEORGE STONEY: OK.

JAMIE STONEY: You're [going to want?] a wide shot.

MURPHY: Oh, came from the mountains out here? OK. Um, we were living, uh, at Marble, North Carolina, which is about seven miles from Murphy. We were tenant farmers, and although we were small, we got up in the mornings and hoed corn. We didn't have cotton, so we hoed corn. And then after so long a time, things were not getting any better, financially. So my daddy heard about the mills in 00:24:00Gastonia. He came to Loray because we had friends in Gastonia. He came to Gastonia, got a job at Loray, and worked until, I guess, it was time for the harvest. He came back and, uh, we, uh, got finished with the farm that year. And then he didn't much want to uproot the whole family and come back to Gastonia, but we moved back to Murphy because there was a furniture factory there. And he got a job in a furniture factory, and we moved into Murphy, and they built a little shotgun house where we lived. And he used the rejected material from the furniture store to build it. Even the walls had big paste-board -- pieces of paste-board -- that made the walls. Well, we stayed 00:25:00there until the furniture factory was not doing all that well, either. And he realized that maybe there were a lot of opportunities in this area. So, um, he got rid of the house, got rid of all the furniture. Except the pots and the pans and the dishes. We had one box. And we caught a train that Loray, and some of the mills in Gastonia, were sending back to, uh, bring help. To, uh, Gastonia. And, uh, we came into Gastonia and they, they gave us a little new house, down in south Gastonia. The greatest thing about it was, it had a bathroom. The first one we'd ever had. And it was clean and nice. We had 00:26:00this big box, which we ate off of. That was our table. Until Daddy could manage to get some beds, and stoves, and whatnot was there. So, we stayed there for, no, several years. Not too many. And then, he had an opportunity to come to Belmont to, uh -- the ACME mills, because Joe Duncan, who was superintendent of the mills, was most interested in Santa View Baptist Church, and they needed a choir director. And, uh, he had seen my daddy with a quartet, somewhere. And he called and asked Daddy if he could come to see us! And he came, and he said, "We need you in Belmont. We'd love to have you come." And he told that 00:27:00he would give us a big house. Bigger than what we were living in. And so, we moved to Belmont and I was, at that time, about 13 years old.

GEORGE STONEY: Just a -- hold it just a moment. I'm just trying to get the -- the, the thing. Tell me when we're clear outside, Judy.

HELFLAND: OK.

JAMIE STONEY: Pick it up with that. "It was when I was about 13."

GEORGE STONEY: OK, OK. "That was when I was about 13." OK?

MURPHY: Yeah, I was about 13. And I was not old enough to work, but my -- they wouldn't let you in the mill until you were 14, at this particular time. So, when the boss man would go home at six o'clock, I would slip in the mill and learn to do something. I didn't care what it was. I was going to school, of course. And I was in probably the sixth grade, at that time. I learned to 00:28:00spin. I wanted to learn to spool. But they didn't need spoolers. They needed spinners. And so, the day I was 14 years old, I went to work. Very shortly after that, the people from Gastonia who were near east Gastonia wanted us to -- Daddy to come up there. They had a church that they needed another -- a music director. So, we went to, uh, move to Gastonia. To Ranlo, really. And we stayed there for several years. And, uh, but when we moved there, my mother had, uh, was very ill. She had leukemia. There was nobody to take care of the children. I was oldest. So I quit school in the sixth grade. And I went to 00:29:00work, and worked until, um, 1927, I guess. And I was dating. A boy who was a, um, was studying for the ministry. His father was pastor of our church. I had no intentions of marrying him. I mean, it was not that serious. So, they insisted on my going back to school! We went down to Winget, to see if I could get in. Say, "Here I am, now, in the sixth -- early sixth grade." They insisted that I go with the pastor and his wife. They did all they could to help me get in. Well, there was no way to go to Winget, because there was just no way for me to work my way through. So, we had a friend who had gone to, uh, the school in Spartanburg, South Carolina. Where you worked two weeks in the mill, and went to school two weeks. And so, this friend of mine, and that 00:30:00pastor, and another pastor who was very much interested in my going to school. We go down, and, uh, set it up, where I can work. And that's what I did. I finished high school, in -- in, uh, three years, by going extra classes on the weekends. Finished high school. And at that time, things were terrible again. Now, I was weaving -- I mean, I was spinning. And they had weave mills, but I couldn't do anything about the weave mill. I continued to spin. Right on through. We had a partner, and if your partner was ill, you had to fill in for them. But I never had to do very much of that, because the people at the plant were so interested in -- well, they were just real good friends of mine. They were real nice. And I didn't have to stay out of school, much. So, I, uh, finished high school, and, uh, the boy that I was dating at that time -- you 00:31:00don't have to put all this junk in (laughter) but -- the boy that I was dating at that time was a Methodist ministry. He was, uh, in school there, too. Always dated preachers. (laughter) (inaudible) And our, uh, matron, uh, was a widow. And, uh, we were going to the banquet, and, uh, I asked my daddy to come to go with me to the banquet. And I was so proud I did that, because he was so supportive of me, and he would send me a dollar at least once a month. That was money for toothpaste, and, uh, whatever, you know. Just extra. When we got our pay, from the mill, it came in money, in an envelope. And my math teacher -- I was the bookkeeper -- and she would take out all the money, except the change, 00:32:00and that's all you got. Because the rest of it went against your expenses. And if I didn't have about 25 or 30 cents, she'd leave a dollar in. Nobody knew it. And if they had, it wouldn't have mattered. I don't think anybody would care. So, when I had finished high school, and everything was all cleared up, I came back home. My mother was still ill. There was no money. Mills were running deadly. And I came back home and worked one year, in between high school and college. And the pres -- I mean, the president of the college, and the assistant president came up here. And said, "You've got to come back to school." And I said, "I can't come." "Yes, you can. We'll see to 00:33:00it that you can make your way." And they gave me odd jobs, so at the school and the office, or in the dining room. That way, I made it. But we were only part-time in the mill, at that time. I don't know why people gave me so many opportunities, but I was just blessed with, uh, things that really mattered, you know? To me. Because I wanted to get an education. So, I -- [as it laid out?] is, I said, that year, and I went back the next year. And during that time, the, uh, um, president of the college's wife -- they had high school, and I mean, they had under -- I know it started with the fifth grade. I'm not sure, at this time, it had any grades lower than that. Because this was for older people coming back. And, uh, the, the president of the college's wife was 00:34:00teaching the fifth grade. And about the second or third year -- second year, I guess, I was there, in college -- um, my, um history teacher was teaching at Wofford College. Classes at night. I was trying to get my teacher's certificate, and I needed some extra stuff, to get it. So I -- of course, Wofford College was a man's school, and you didn't go. You know, women just didn't go. And he taught a class at night, that I needed to bring my qualifications up to get a teacher's certificate. And I got my teacher's certificate --

HELFLAND: Excuse me.

GEORGE STONEY: Just started the school, actually started --

MURPHY: Started at, by the Methodists. And the joke was always that, uh, it was, uh, paid for by the Methodists -- and I mean, the, started by the 00:35:00Methodists -- supported by the Baptists. And (inaudible) Baptist students. They were Methodists, actually. And of course, we had -- there were other denominations. There were Catholics, is all. But when I went on -- OK, going back to the school. It was started out, they built a mill, and they called it the Character textile mill. It was going to be, um, uh, run by only students who went to school there. Older students who came back, who had missed out on the first go-around. And for some reason or other, it didn't pan out. And they made an arrangement with, uh, some of the textile mills, like Arcadia Cotton Mill, in Spartanburg, close. And Saxon Mill. And they -- they -- they 00:36:00promised enough jobs for the school at all times. And then the Character Mill itself finally just, uh, uh, went away. But, um, when I went there, I was the youngest person, and I had been out of school, oh, six, seven years, I guess? At that time, I, um, everybody called me "the little girl." Well, about two years after that, a young boy came there, and they called him Peanuts, and he was one day younger than me. And I hated him from the day he came! (laughter) He, he was a nice, a nice boy. But, uh, they, um, we had -- the churches that, uh, in the area, you could go to any church you wanted to. And on Sunday 00:37:00afternoon, we always had a live service band, and somebody would be in charge, and you could get a speaker, or you could do whatever you wanted. At that time, [Olandy?] Johnson, who was the governor of South Carolina, he was a graduate of this school. And, uh, I always enjoyed having been in charge of the program, because I could always get [Oland?] to come. And he would do so many nice things. But, uh, you could do it yourself, or you could get somebody, or whatever you wanted to do, if it was your time to be in charge of the program, so.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, that was a kind of experience in training for leadership, that so few people in cotton mills got, ever, conceivably, got a chance.

MURPHY: Mm-hmm.

GEORGE STONEY: That must have had a lot to do --

MURPHY: And we were all -- we were all cotton mill people. I mean, everybody 00:38:00who, uh, was there. We had two or three people whose jobs it would be to maybe, to cook, or do that type of thing. But they were still all -- they went to school on the same schedule that we had. Two weeks off, and two weeks in school.

GEORGE STONEY: So, that obviously pushed you in the direction of taking leadership. And then, could you tell us a little more about your father, who obviously did the same thing?

MURPHY: My father was a most unusual man. And I'm not saying it just because he was my father, but he really was. In all of my years, I have never seen him lose his temper. I never heard him speak an ill word against anybody. They had a reason for misbehaving, or doing the things they did. He was -- he was a great, uh, guy. And, um, I guess the only time he ever had any trouble with the 00:39:00family, is I had some brothers that, uh, would do some things sometimes, and he, uh, was not very happy with. And they were punished. But he -- he never -- he didn't have any trouble with the girls, except me. When I was about a year old, he said they were shucking corn, and shelling corn, and I had put -- I had spilled some on the floor, and Daddy told me to pick it up, and I wouldn't do it. He finally took my fingers and made me pick it up. He said that was the only time he was really provoked, with me. That I knew of, anyway! But he loved music, and he, um, he did, uh, several instruments. Besides leading the 00:40:00do-re-mi's, as we understand. And wherever we went, any church that we -- where we attended -- he became the song leader. Not that he was all that great. But he just had a way about him that people could get a lot out of his -- out of his music, because he lived what he was singing.

GEORGE STONEY: Well now, obviously his attitude toward what women could do must have been different, but even to let you go away, and get to go -- could you talk a little more about that? Because, again, as I say, we want to celebrate this man.

MURPHY: Yeah. I don't think it would have mattered what I wanted to do. Uh, the only that -- that I can remember, that he and my mother objected to, is I thought, when I was about 12 or 14 years old, that I wanted to be a foreign missionary. I thought the only place you went was Africa. And so, I had a 00:41:00Sunday school teacher, at East Baptist Church, in Gastonia, and she said one day, "I think that's what you want to do!" I said, "Yes, I guess so." So, I told my mother and daddy at the table one day that I wanted to be a foreign missionary. My mother started crying. My daddy says, "Well, now, if she wants to be a missionary, Mama, let's support her! That's a calling from the Lord." Well, the Lord was really not calling me to be a missionary. I guess I just wanted to go somewhere. So, that was the only thing that he thought that I couldn't do. But he would have done it then. But I remember the day I left to go to school. Everything in the world I had was in a little trunk. And he sat on the trunk, and he said, uh, "This is a big step for 00:42:00you." And I said, "Yes, it is." And I said, "I hate to go because of money." And I said, "I know that -- I don't know how we're going to make it." And he says, "It don't matter. You can make it with our help. And we'll see to it that you go as far as you want to." And I did. There was never any question about money. Of course, the school didn't push you. If you didn't have the money, why, and if they thought you wanted to work, why, uh, they saw to it that you had a job. It didn't matter what it was. And I didn't mind working, as long as I could get my scholarship paid. I mean, my tuition paid.

HELFLAND: (inaudible)

GEORGE STONEY: OK. Mm-hmm.

JAMIE STONEY: -- next flight into Douglas.

HELFLAND: Do you usually hear the planes?

00:43:00

MURPHY: Yeah! My, uh, attitude toward the love for the mountains. I still have it, today. And even though, um, when we first moved down here --

GEORGE STONEY: That's (inaudible)

HELFLAND: You know what, let's -- (laughs) If it's not the planes, it's the clock!

MURPHY: We can stop that clock.

HELFLAND: You can? How can we do that? You just tell me.

MURPHY: Just tell Kenneth to stop it. I don't know. But it does interfere, doesn't it?

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah, uh-huh. OK, now, just start again.

MURPHY: OK, going back to the mountains. For years, we went back every summer for two weeks, anyway. And, uh, my father went back two weeks every summer, and would have a, uh, a singing class. People would go and they would know that August the 14th, my daddy would be back there. To teach two weeks of do-re-mi's. They couldn't, sometimes, see. It couldn't get everybody in the church, where they were -- would have it. And he'd have to have two a day. They'd have it later, in the afternoon, or late -- I guess they would 00:44:00call it night. But then, the ones that couldn't get in at night would come back, because they were in control, more or less, or their time. And, uh, he has -- he had always loved music. And then, later, uh, especially when we came out here, my sister and I started taking music down at Sacred Heart. We were going to take, uh, piano. They bought us a piano. And, uh, there was not enough money for both of us. So, we decided that since I had the opportunity to go away to school, she'd take the piano, and she took piano until she got pretty good, and then she started taking organ from one of the people out at the -- uh, at the abbey. So, there was never any jealousy in my family, because I 00:45:00got to go a little bit farther than they did. But all -- everybody graduated from high school. The entire family.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, compare living in the mountains with living in the mill village.

MURPHY: Well, you had to go to the spring house across the creek to get your water. You had a little box of a thing, uh, built close to the, uh, uh, spring, where you would take your milk, and your butter, at night. Uh, there were no, uh, bathroom facilities. The only heat, of course, was a fireplace. And you walked everywhere you went, because you didn't have a car. No transportation. And I guess you didn't want to go anywhere. Uh, too much. Since you knew what -- how you were going to get there! But when we were living in Murphy, 00:46:00now, we were not actually in the mountains at that time. It was a big city, you know. About as big as half of Belmont. Uh, we walked to school, which was about a mile and a half. To school. And we walked down the railroad track, across the bridge. You had to be sure that the train was not coming when you crossed the bridge. You took your meal -- whatever you've have to eat for lunch -- in a lard bucket.

GEORGE STONEY: Uh-huh.

MURPHY: You know what a lard bucket is?

GEORGE STONEY: Uh-huh.

MURPHY: And, uh, in the mill, though, we usually lived close enough until we could go home for lunch. My mother knew exactly what time we would all be there, and we could walk home from where we live, now. Maybe there are a lot of people who couldn't.

HELFLAND: I have a question.

GEORGE STONEY: Mm-hmm.

00:47:00

HELFLAND: I'm just -- I'm just thinking that visually, you know, I mean, you had a real different view when you lived on the mountains than when you lived in the village. And I'm just wondering --

MURPHY: I think I felt that we had arrived.

GEORGE STONEY: (laughs)

MURPHY: We had neighbors. That were great neighbors. We had, uh, um, money, I guess, coming in, that we didn't have otherwise. Because there was no money coming in. You, you took your stuff to the grocery store, and you -- you exchanged green beans for a piece of fat back, or bacon, or whatever you got. It was altogether a different lifestyle. But I can't say that I didn't like that, because I've never done anything I didn't like. I mean, that's -- 00:48:00that's odd. I didn't get what it was. I, I made myself enjoy whatever I did.

GEORGE STONEY: And this would be a good time to ask you to describe when you first went in the mills, what it looked like. What it smelled like, and how you got used to it.

MURPHY: The first, um, experience, I guess, I had with the mill was when I was slipping in at night, and learning. People were dipping snuff, and they spit in the floor. And, uh, it was filthy. And you worked 12 hours a day. And you were dirty when you came out. Um, there was a lot of noise. The machines made a lot of noise. And when you talked to somebody who worked close to you, you had to talk real loud. And, uh, there was always -- my feeling was -- that 00:49:00there were a lot of people who work in -- they had on the -- about the best clothes they had. Maybe something to wear to church. But they wore it over and over and over. Men would wear their overalls a whole week. Slick. Some patched. Some with holes in them. And, uh, I -- I never felt any different toward them. Of course, my -- my folks tried to live, um, a little bit above where we had before. My mother took care of the money. My daddy gave her whatever came in. And she could make a dollar go farther than anybody I've 00:50:00ever seen. But the mill people had a, uh, they had a feeling for people. And, uh, this is a little bit in another area, but I, uh, when I came home from, from college, I had not had a commercial course. So I went down to Sacred Heart and took a commercial course. I worked -- at that time, now you were working eight hours, not 12 hours, as we did. Um, I'd get out at, uh, one o'clock, from school. They -- the sister would let me out a little bit earlier. I would go home, change clothes, and I -- the people who ran the, the machines that I ran, in the afternoon, would stay -- I mean, they supported me! They weren't 00:51:00jealous of me! Or anything. And I wondered why, you know. But they would stay there and run those machines until I got there. I never missed -- never had to miss a day. But then I worked from 2:00 until 11:00. Or 10:00. And, uh, go back to school the next morning. I'd have to stay up late at night to, uh, study, if I had classes. So, I had no time to study. It was -- I did it too -- early in the morning, or late at night.

HELFLAND: You know what, I want to -- (inaudible) I hear the lawn mower. Maybe we should cut it off.

GEORGE STONEY: That's awfully faint. You're quite sure?

HELFLAND: Well, it's fainter now than it was before. I'm just worried it's going to come back.

GEORGE STONEY: OK, OK. Uh --

JAMIE STONEY: Keep going --

MURPHY: He won't come back.

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah, yeah.

HELFLAND: Did they -- when you were younger and you went to school, that was so 00:52:00much different than all the other -- was it different than the other kids on the mill village, here in Gastonia?

MURPHY: Well, they were mill people, too. When I went away to school. They had come from mills, too. The only difference between them and me was, I was young. And they all tried to mother me. (laughter)

HELFLAND: But what did the mill village here -- you were at ACME, then, right?

MURPHY: Yeah.

HELFLAND: What did ACME -- what did the ACME mill children, mill people, think, about you leaving to go to school?

MURPHY: They were supportive! I mean, the church people gave me a shower. And they didn't, uh -- they gave me things I never used. I have them today. Uh, just odds and ends. All they could afford. But I never -- I never felt, in all of my life, that anybody felt, had any feeling against me.

00:53:00

GEORGE STONEY: Now, you mentioned the -- what it was like in the mills. Very graphically. Uh, when and how did your father get concerned about conditions in the mills? Because he became a leader.

MURPHY: See, we didn't -- the mills in Belmont did not strike. Where we were living, at the time. And, uh, uh, I think it was just an overall feeling of all the people. And people were not making much money. And then we had leaders who came in. If these men, who were, um, trying to organize -- I'll say organizers -- if they had not come in, there wouldn't have been anything much here. And there was not that much feeling, either. Uh, our people here, I think, felt for people where there were strikes, and where the people were being mistreated. I don't think the mills in Belmont mistreated people nearly as 00:54:00badly as they did. OK, Loray. Uh, or some of the other areas around.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, your father became -- you want to tell about your father and what he did there, then? Before -- in this period, before the -- before the big strike, and the, in '34. I believe your father was, uh, president of the local?

MURPHY: Uh, no. He was not. Uh, he was just -- just a supporter.

GEORGE STONEY: OK.

MURPHY: He was never -- but, um, I think my daddy had a feeling for people who were, um, having a hard time, and, uh, he knew a lot of people. See, we had lived in Gastonia. So he knew what was going on in the Gastonia area. But as 00:55:00Clyde and I were saying the other night, none of these mills here were on strike. But there was this antagonistic feeling when the organizers would come in, and they would try to make you think that things were bad. And that's why we lost some people, here. And I wish some of -- that you could find somebody who knew about the, the brutal slaying of the people who were killed. And I can't, because I don't know that.

GEORGE STONEY: Are you referring to the 29, the Aderholt?

MURPHY: The, yeah, in that same area, mm-hmm.

HELFLAND: And you're referring to Riley, who got bayonetted?

MURPHY: Yeah, mm-hmm. And another man in Belmont was killed. Now, Clyde was closer associated to the man who was killed in Belmont, because his mother, uh, lived there. And he lived with her. And she worked in the mill, too. Until 00:56:00she became blind.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, he told us about his own experience, in connection with, uh, that, uh, gentleman, yeah. Uh-huh.

MURPHY: Yeah. I don't, uh, I never felt that there was all that much, uh, feeling about, uh, about the union, except it was a matter of supporting the whole process. Maybe getting more money. Uh, maybe being covered by insurance. The mills didn't have insurance. Uh, ACME had no, no kind of insurance. So, we -- well, a friend of mine, who was he -- he was one of my sup -- uh, supervisors. We organized something like a union. I mean, an insurance thing. Anybody who wanted to, could donate so much money, per week. We kept that money 00:57:00until somebody needed it. And we paid the bill. Or, paid as much as we could. And that led, finally, to an insurance interest, which was covered later, by the mills. They took it out of their weekly salary, so much a week. I think ours was probably 25 cents a week, per person. And I don't know of anybody who did not join. And pay it.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, the other day you were telling us about a trip to New York. Could you describe that?

MURPHY: I had a good time. They, um, um, there were five of us I knew. Mr. Lisk, who you know, and then the man who was an organizer from Charlotte. And 00:58:00his wife, and a Mathis man from Mt. Holly, who is dead. And, uh, me. It was one car. And we went to New York, to the, uh, convention. Uh, I don't know why they sent me. Yeah, I do. I guess I was secretary of the local. And I was supposed --

GEORGE STONEY: (inaudible) (clock sounds) This is going to be a long one!

HELFLAND: This must be twelve o'clock.

JAMIE STONEY: Dad, (inaudible) I guess I was --

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah. yeah. (clock sounds) (laughs)

HELFLAND: When we finish this --

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.

HELFLAND: -- we might want to backtrack.

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah, yeah. (laughs) (clock sounds)

MURPHY: He started that this morning, because he loves to hear it.

GEORGE STONEY: Oh, it's beautiful!

MURPHY: But it's, uh --

GEORGE STONEY: (inaudible)

MURPHY: -- it's an interference, you know.

GEORGE STONEY: (laughs)

00:59:00

HELFLAND: Makes it sound like you live somewhere.

MURPHY: If he comes through here, I'll stop it.

GEORGE STONEY: OK, just start up again about your New York trip, then.

MURPHY: OK. We, um, went in the man's car, from Charlotte. He and his wife had a car. Uh, I can't remember whether we -- seems to me that we left early, early in the morning, and got there that night, of course. Transportation was, uh, uh, slow. And I can't remember the place where we stayed, but, um, uh, the man's wife and I stayed in one room and all the three men stayed in another. Because that kept down the expenses. It was being paid for by one of the organizations, and I don't remember which, really. And, uh, we went to 01:00:00the meeting. Um, went to the big meeting was the first night that we were there. And the most people I had ever seen at a meeting, you know. And the thing that surprised me was the orderly way that these agitators responded. I was scared to death! I thought we would get there, and there would be people who would be sent by companies to try to quiet it down. But there were -- to me, there was no real trouble. Maybe they were afraid of the crowds, and, uh, I remember all the big wheels that made speeches, you know. And, and of course they would try to tell how bad the South was. And how little people were making. And that the mills, uh, were striking. Uh, and the employees were 01:01:00doing it because they were concerned. I guess we were there three days, maybe. But I don't know of any great results from it, except when we came back. Uh, one of the men asked me how many fights you saw. And I said, "I've seen more fights on the streets of Gastonia, than were there!" I guess everybody wanted to, to, uh, represent their group as a congenial group of people. We didn't hear anything new, I mean, that we hadn't heard before. Or read, in the, uh, papers.

GEORGE STONEY: Do you remember what the outcome of the meeting was?

MURPHY: No. No.

GEORGE STONEY: Did you report to anybody when you came back?

MURPHY: I'm sure I did. I'm sure I reported to the -- to the local. And I wish I knew where the books were. I do not. Because I married, left home, and 01:02:00then from then on, everything was discarded.

GEORGE STONEY: Were you keeping the books?

MURPHY: Mm-hmm, yeah. I -- I'd write up the meetings, and, uh, read the minutes of the meeting before that particular day. Because I -- I guess I've always sort of been interested in reporting. Because I had worked for the Charlotte Observer on a very small basis. One time to report things in this area. Now, it had nothing to do with the union. But, uh, there was a woman who, uh, had a, uh, a column every day. And, uh, she became a real good friend of mine, and so she would ask me to, uh, fill the column when she would be gone, or something. And I kind of enjoyed writing. Uh, not that I've ever done 01:03:00anything with it. But I, I liked to know, uh, how it started, and progressively, how a story would be -- how to inject little things that made it interesting, that was human elements of an individual's life, and so on, so.

GEORGE STONEY: Well, tell us a little more about Red Lisk. We've been interested in him.

MURPHY: Well, I don't really know, except he was a real, uh, good looking man. He was married, and has two children, I believe. Well-dressed, well-informed. Uh, he was not an agitator. He just reported things as it was. But he could 01:04:00preach a sermon, sometime! At some of the bigger meetings. Not, not at our local, necessarily. But, um, he and the other man in Charlotte, who was over him, really, got along real well. And what one knew, the other one did. And of course, the, uh, the higher-up man was being fed by, uh, the, um, mill that was on strike at that time.

GEORGE STONEY: Mm-hmm.

MURPHY: Or, I guess I'd say, that -- are all the things that were happening to the people. How they were out of work. There were bread lines. There were food -- people were hungry. And that agitated, I think, a lot of people, because they felt that, if all they had to do was to give somebody 15 cents an hour more, or 10 cents an hour more, all of that -- because there was still the 01:05:00need for the materials that they were making! But the people felt that the mills were making all the profit. And that they were not really making enough to quite exist on.

GEORGE STONEY: How did you feel about that?

MURPHY: You know, I can't feel that I had a real bad feeling. I felt it was true. That, uh, we were not making enough money. Uh, I remember the first, uh, week that I worked in a mill, in Gastonia. At Ozark. I worked 60 hours. Five days. Twelve hours. And my paycheck was $7.15. I, I guess I remember that, because that was the most money that I had ever made, you know. So, and I would 01:06:00always try to run more sides than anybody else. Because you got a little bit more money, you know, if you ran 15, or 20, or whatnot. I've always just wanted to do a little bit more than I was supposed to do.

GEORGE STONEY: Did you -- used to talk about this with your father?

MURPHY: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

GEORGE STONEY: Tell us about that.

MURPHY: My father felt, uh, uh, more strongly about it than I did, because he had a family of seven to feed. And, um, as I said before, he was a kind person. And he was -- he was realistic. And he felt that people -- a lot of people -- were responsible for what, uh, they were lacking in pay. Because they were not given -- now this is really part of a story that shouldn't be in here -- but 01:07:00he felt that if people tried to do better work, if in the spinning room you tried to put ends together and not make a knot, which would show up in the inspection room -- that they could get more for their money. I mean, for the materials. Then they could pay people more. But he was in favor of, um, of, um, of what was going on. And I guess if, if we had not -- if we had struck -- but, see, we didn't. All our mills kept on running. I mean, where we were involved. The hosiery mills were still running. And hosiery mills paid good money. Compared to, uh, textile mills. And there was a little bit more 01:08:00finesse, I guess, to the hosiery mill workers, than to cotton mill workers. I think you had to, uh, be a, a [level?] above, because I can remember -- "Oh, they work in the hosiery mill." You know. I looked up to them, because I thought they made more money. They dress better than we did. They didn't act that way. But, but they were just head and shoulders above the mill people. And the mill people didn't have, uh, any more money to spend. We paid, um, 25 cents a room for rent. You bought all your toilet paper through the mill, and charged it, and they took it out on your pay. Um, it was -- personally, it was an easy life! If you didn't have any great ambition. And very few young 01:09:00people had a, a great desire to do anything more. Because their families couldn't afford it. They had to continue to work. I just happened to be lucky to be from a family that supported me and uh, and I wanted to do it. And, of course, my aspiration started off, as I say, coming from the pastor of my church. And the boy I was dating. And the mother, who had, uh, um, graduated from college. And it was -- people that I had associated with, I guess, deserve more credit than I did.

HELFLAND: You do want to get a drink of water? Or a (inaudible) or something?

MURPHY: Would you like to have one?

HELFLAND: Oh, no. Do you --

GEORGE STONEY: NRA came in, and you move from 12 to 8 hours. Maybe you could talk about that.

01:10:00

MURPHY: OK. (coughs)

GEORGE STONEY: That was in the middle of 1933. MURPHY: That's the year I came home from school. And I think it was at that time when they started taking out social security, is that right?

GEORGE STONEY: No, actually a year later they started taking out social security. But what happened was -- and maybe I can refresh your memory there -- what happened was, that in 1933, in June, the NRA came in with a code for the whole industry. And they had -- the big thing was they eliminated child labor. You had to be 14 to get in the mill. But most of the mills had already eliminated that. Cut from 11 or 12 hours down to 8. Minimum wage was $11. And, uh, [seven?] they said that the workers had the right to organize a union. 01:11:00Those were the four big things. And a lot of the organization came out of that thing But so many people have told us what it was like to go from 11 or 12 to 8 --

MURPHY: (coughs)

GEORGE STONEY: -- and to get, suddenly get a lot more money. And I just wondered if you had a memory of that. OK?

MURPHY: Well, I think that, uh, it was just such a, a strange situation. Um, I only remember a little bit about that. But I -- but I made up my mind that I was -- I was going to do something with my time. And that's when I decided to go back to school, and take commercial. I had time to do that, now that I don't have to work 12 hours. I can work 8 hours. And, um, I'm not too sure 01:12:00that there was that much difference in your, in your money, because you were -- you did get an increase in salary. But by the same token, you were cut hours. So, people were happy and sad. But I don't' remember a great deal about, uh, a big, uh... Feeling, with most of the people. People found something to do. They filled their time. And a lot of people worked two jobs. I mean, two shifts. And, um, I guess there was no restriction on it, at the time. You'd work whenever you wanted to.

01:13:00

GEORGE STONEY: A lot of people we've found -- we talked with a gentleman who worked in one mill for eight hours, and then would go other to another mill and pick up a shift.

MURPHY: Yeah, yeah, mm-hmm.

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah. I was really surprised to hear that.

MURPHY: Yeah.

STONEY: Yeah.

HELFLAND: What about Roosevelt?

MURPHY: What about Roosevelt? I'm not sure. We had a lot of people who, who hated him. We had a lot of people who felt like he had been an asset to the, uh, to the working man. I don't remember. I -- I didn't think too much -- I mean, I was not involved in politics, particularly, at that time.

GEORGE STONEY: Did you vote?

01:14:00

MURPHY: Yeah. I voted. (coughs) In fact, part of the time, uh, when we were living in Gastonia, and we had a car, at that time, and I drove -- I, I was paid to drive a car to take people to vote! That was -- my daddy thought you voted, or you had no right to, to say anything. So he furnished the car, and I'd go to the mill, or whoever, and they didn't care. I mean, they let you do it! You didn't know how they were going to vote. Or, weren't supposed to. But you knew pretty well they were going to vote for your man, or you weren't going to say too much about it. And I did that.

GEORGE STONEY: What kind of car did you have?

MURPHY: I think it was a Chevrolet. yeah.

GEORGE STONEY: Could you describe it?

MURPHY: Oh, no. It was so old. (laughs) All those gear shifts, and hadn't -- had no windows in it, you know. Just -- I think there was, uh, some kind of a plastic deal that you could put, you know, fasten on, but I don't think it 01:15:00came with this car, because this was just -- just four wheels, is all we had. But I -- we, we thought we were, uh, in style. We didn't have to walk to Gastonia from, uh, Ozark, to buy groceries on Saturday. Walk up there and get a cab to bring our groceries back. So we were doing all right.

GEORGE STONEY: Well, again, I'm particularly interested in your father. You say that he thought people should vote, and so forth. Where did his push come from?

MURPHY: I wondered myself. I don't know where his push came from. Uh, even as a young man, he was always trying to, to better himself. My daddy was real good with his hands. He could make -- when, when, at one time, when they were 01:16:00living -- we were living at ACME -- he had all these little animals in the trees outside. He had an old lady over the scrub board, doing this, you know. And her husband, with a, you know, spike in her, from behind. And, uh, I had a letter from my sister, this week, and she said -- who lives in Florida -- that she said, "I still have these birds, and things, that Daddy made." He would make, uh, things like, uh, uh, combinations on boxes that you couldn't get in, unless you knew the combination. He -- if he had had an opportunity, he would have really done something big. But, with five children, and, uh, he didn't, uh -- he was a smart man.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, he sounds like the kind of fellow whom the mills often kind 01:17:00of picked up and made second hands, and then up. Did that happen to him, or if it didn't happen, why?

MURPHY: Well, uh, I can't remember that he was ever an overseer, or, uh, necessarily. He had a -- he always had a, a good job. where there would be only three or four people would have the job. But he was never an overseer, that I remember him being. But, um, he -- it, uh -- I do remember, too, that he -- he would have something to do with women that worked on the same job that he did, that, uh, he would see to it that they, uh, if they got behind with their work, that he and some of the men would help them. And they looked to him, uh, you know, for that, that kind of support. But he was not a, uh, uh, a supervisor, in any respect, that I remember.

01:18:00

GEORGE STONEY: Well, now we see that, uh, in between 1933, when the government said you had the right to form a union, until this big event in the latter part of -- in September '34 -- over 100 locals were organized, including a lot in this county.

MURPHY: Mm-hmm.

GEORGE STONEY: Do you -- could you tell us how and why that happened?

MURPHY: Well, the man you were talking about a while ago, Mr. Lisk? He would come -- he would come -- I'll say, he would come to this local, here. Which is already organized. Then he would have some of these people go with him to another place, and they would get out their posters, you know, to invite you to a meeting. OK, for the first night you would go, there would be a lot of people there. So, these people would join up immediately. So, it was just sort of a 01:19:00thing like that, that caused a lot of locals to be organized. Because he would say, "This is your area. This is where you can express your desire for a better, uh, way of life. This is where you can tell your supervisors that, uh, certain things need to be taken care of." (phone rings) Oh, forget about it. Oh, it's ringing.

GEORGE STONEY: I just want you to say that again, because that's -- that's fine, that, uh -- OK? OK, you want to tell us that again?

MURPHY: And what am I going to repeat?

HELFLAND: How things got organized.

MURPHY: How they were organized. OK. The organizers would -- OK. In this 01:20:00area, and I don't know how far-reaching it was, once a quarter, or once a month, all of the units would meet a certain place. Well, Mr. Lisk would be there. He, he was always there. Plus maybe other organizers. Plus the other man from Charlotte who was higher up in the organization than Red was. And you -- they would meet in school houses. That's where they'd have to meet. And, um, you'd go and then everybody would give a report on their last meetings, you know. How many new members they had. Uh, how they were, uh, how they collected their, uh, dues. You had dues to pay. You couldn't collect dues on mill property. But it was done. You know.

01:21:00

HELFLAND: How?

MURPHY: Well, somebody would just walk by, stick a quarter in your hand, and you'd know what it was for. Nobody knew anything about it. My very best friend, at that time, uh, was, um, her father was superintendent of our mill. And although I was on one side, and they were on the other side, we never had any trouble. We ran around together. I don't think they even thought it was all that bad, either, you know? I think they would have supported it if they hadn't had a job to, affair, if -- I remember one time, uh -- it was when I was pregnant with my son. [Martin?]. Who was born in 1937 -- '39. You couldn't work in the mill, when you were pregnant. I mean, the minute they 01:22:00found out you were pregnant, they -- they were afraid you would get hurt, or something would happen. And Joe Duncan, who was superintendent of the mill, whose daughter was -- oldest daughter -- was my friend, whose next daughter was my sister's best friend. And he would go up and down, and he wouldn't look at me. And I said to [Valerie?] one day, I said, "Why won't your daddy look at me?" "He's not going to tell anybody you're pregnant. You can work as long as you want to. And he'll never report it." I worked until December, and Marty -- I worked until, in January. And Marty was born in February. And nobody that I know of ever had any feeling about that.

GEORGE STONEY: And you didn't experience any ill effects from it?

01:23:00

MURPHY: Uh-uh, no! No. Not a bit. I'd wear, uh, clothes that were baggy, I guess. And other -- other people knew. I mean, everybody had to know that I was pregnant! Because they gave me showers. (clock sounds) And, uh --

GEORGE STONEY: Just a moment --

MURPHY: But because he was the superintendent --

GEORGE STONEY: Sorry, could you say that again? "Everybody knew I was pregnant."

MURPHY: Everybody knew I was pregnant. They had showers for me. Mr. Duncan's own daughter helped give it. And he wouldn't look at me.

GEORGE STONEY: (laughs)

MURPHY: Not at the mill. Now, he would at church. But, you know, there was different, uh -- a lot of different people in the mill, than came to our church. But, uh --

GEORGE STONEY: Tell us what --

MURPHY: I got by with murder, didn't I?

GEORGE STONEY: (laughs) You did! Tell us what the women wore in the mills, when you first went in there. About the costume.

MURPHY: Oh, just plain old dresses, with no sleeves in them. And they would 01:24:00wear, uh, they had aprons with pockets in them. That's where they kept their bobbins, and whatever they needed. Uh, to do their job with. Ragged. Didn't matter what it was. Just so they were comfortable.

GEORGE STONEY: Were they allowed to wear pants?

MURPHY: I guess not. I don't remember anybody ever wearing pants. I doubt it. They would have been safer, actually. Where they -- and especially in the spinning room, where so many bobbins were going a mile a minute.

GEORGE STONEY: We just had some funny stories of women challenging the foreman, and finally, when the war came, and they needed them so badly, then, suddenly, it was all right for everybody to wear pants.

MURPHY: Well --

GEORGE STONEY: We got some very funny stories about that.

MURPHY: I can't remember anything about that. I didn't' wear pants because my daddy probably wouldn't have approved of it. But I always wore dresses. I remember one time I was wearing a real ragged dress -- well, it was 01:25:00old. And [Kent?] had an aunt who, uh, was always so good to me. And I had worn this dress until she said, "I'm so tired of that dress, I don't know what to do!" So, one Friday, just before the -- we went home, she came over there and she tore that dress off of me. She didn't have trouble, because it was rotten. She put her apron -- she tied her apron the back of me, and I had my apron in the front. I got a new dress. (laughter) Not that we were that bad off, but we just -- a comfortable dress, and I'd just wear it all the time.

GEORGE STONEY: Well, it sounds to me like -- and I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it sounded to me like you had a lot of fun, as well as a lot of hard work.

MURPHY: Well, I -- as I say, I -- I have always enjoyed everything I did. I even enjoy washing dishes. Uh, I enjoy doing everything.

01:26:00

GEORGE STONEY: But, it -- after '33, when they cut down the hours, several people had told us it got a lot harder. Do you remember that, when they kind of speeded up the machinery?

MURPHY: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

GEORGE STONEY: Could you talk about that?

MURPHY: Yeah, they did. And, and you -- you didn't get to rest in between any kind of period. You could get all your work caught up, but you didn't rest any. Because they were so fast -- the machines were so fast. When one end would fall, you know, break, it would take a whole six, or eight, or ten, uh, with it. You know, it just matted up. And sometimes you'd almost have to stop the machine to, to get it all back in place. Then, when you started the machine up, a lot of ends would come down. But, um, my -- my time in the mill was done in spinning. Although I -- I went back, when I lived in Gastonia. I 01:27:00would go back at night, and learn to spool. And I finally worked one night, and I got as many pounds, or whatever, as somebody who'd been doing it a long time. And I asked the man that I was working with if I could, uh, switch from spinners. From the spinning room to the spooling room. And he said, "No." I said, "Well, I just feel like I'd enjoy doing it." He said, "Do you know how many end -- how many frames you're running?" I said, "Yes." He said, "Do you know how many other people are running, that many?" I said, "I don't -- I don't pay attention to it." He said, "No. You're not going down there. I'm not going to let you go." So I never did get to, to spool. As a, you know, part of my job.

01:28:00

GEORGE STONEY: Now, we see a lot, in the newspapers, of the time -- well, we've gone through the newspapers of The Raleigh Observer very carefully. A lot of talk about stretch out. What do they mean?

MURPHY: I suspect that part of it came in to people who were on production, and, uh, they would raise the number of, uh, pounds, or whatever, uh, that you had to do that many more. And I'm, I'm sure that that was a part of what they call a stretch out.

GEORGE STONEY: That seemed to be a good part of the impetus for this final action.

MURPHY: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

GEORGE STONEY: And I just wondered if you experienced that.

MURPHY: No, I would not have, because we did not have that kind of a situation here.

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah, yeah.

01:29:00

HELFLAND: You know, we were talking about dues before, and how people paid them. You had told us, last week, something about the dope wagon, and people slipping pieces of paper?

MURPHY: Yeah.

GEORGE STONEY: Could you tell that story again?

MURPHY: Well, a Mr. Kaiser, whose family, uh, created the Three Center -- do you, do you remember a drink, a Three Center? OK. They, they, uh, produced a Three Center, in South Carolina, but he ran this dope wagon. And you could buy and charge it, until payday. He would cash your check. He'd charge you a dollar to cash your check. But that's the way he would get his -- I mean, he could get his money, then. He would lend money. To people. Because he had a lot to do that. He would lend you $10. And if, as long as you would pay him $1 01:30:00a week, nothing was said. I know people who have paid back as much as $50, on $10. He got rich! And there, again, when people would get their checks cashed, um, there would be a man or two in the mill who would be real active in the union, and they would slip him their money. And they have slipped it to me. I was not very -- good thing to do, but I did. I wouldn't see them anymore. And they'd say, "If I don't give it to you now, I won't have it." You know. "I won't have it when I go to the meeting." But they were supposed to pay it at the meetings. But everybody didn't go to the meeting, even though they were members of a local.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, were they afraid to go to the meetings, you think?

MURPHY: Some people were. Some people were.

GEORGE STONEY: Why?

01:31:00

MURPHY: They were afraid their boss man would see them, and, and that, uh, uh, they would get fired, or they would be punished. It was -- it was sort of a scary time. But, so many people joined the union, until they couldn't do too much, because it almost had to close down a plant, before, uh, they could've done that.

HELFLAND: I don't understand what you mean. I mean, so many people --

MURPHY: Joined -- so many people belonged --

HELFLAND: Yeah but -- (plane sound) we're going to wait for this plane to go by.

STONEY: See, (inaudible). No, no worries. And there's going to be a clock. (laughs)

MURPHY: No, he stopped the clock.

HELFLAND: He did?

GEORGE STONEY: Oh, oh great!

MURPHY: He stopped the clock.

GEORGE STONEY: (laughs) OK! OK, yeah. OK, thank you.

KENNETH: I like that clock.

GEORGE STONEY: Uh-huh.

KENNETH: You have a 30 second break every -- (laughter)

01:32:00

MURPHY: Judy, you were saying, um --

HELFLAND: Uh --

MURPHY: You didn't understand what I said about --

HELFLAND: About how many people -- I'm just going to wait for this plane to go by. I can still hear it. Yeah. I -- you know, we really -- it's so fascinating to speak with you about this, because no one has really been able to explain much of this to us at all.

MURPHY: OK. People were afraid of their jobs, you know. I mean, afraid they were going to lose the job. And they knew that the, the, uh, the wheels of the plant -- the big man -- were certainly not in favor of a union. And they were afraid that they would see them, or somebody would tell, that they went to the local. Meetings. And that they would lose their jobs. They supported the 01:33:00union, but they were scared to death they would lose their job. And if you -- if you lost your job, you had to move. You couldn't live on a mill hill unless you worked in the plant. And there were some restrictions that were not written, but was lived by. They wanted every -- they wanted families, with big families, who could furnish several employees, from one family. And, and it was pretty much that way, because people had pretty big families, back in that day. It was not like today. Two children and that's it. But at one time, there were five. There were six. There were seven in my family, who were working in a mill, at one time. Even my mother worked. So, um, they, uh... I guess there 01:34:00were probably more of us than most families. Uh, I know that, uh, there were, in some cases, would be the man and his wife. But then, then there -- they would have children, but they would not have seven people from one household working.

GEORGE STONEY: Well now, that's... Despite the fact that there was that threat, your father was willing to do it, and you were willing to do it. Why?

MURPHY: I think that we had sympathy for the -- for the people who were having such a hard time, at other places. Uh, we knew -- and we had relatives that lived in some of these areas. We had relatives who were working at Loray. And, 01:35:00uh, we had relatives who were out of work, for ages, because of the strike. And, uh, my daddy could help them a little bit, because we were working. But not a whole lot, really. So, I think it was over -- and you would go to these meetings, too, and you -- people would get up and tell what the situations were at their particular plant. You had sympathy for them. And you -- you wanted things to be changed for them. You wanted to see them all have, uh, enough money to, uh, send their children to school, if they had -- had an idea they wanted to go. But people had to take their children out of school, as soon as they became old enough to work. So, a lot of people never got an education 01:36:00because of it. They had to go to work. To help support their family. Some of them, of course, picked up later. Down the road, and did -- did things. But, uh, a lot of them never got out of the sixth or seventh grade.

GEORGE STONEY: Did your father ever lead music at these meetings? Singing, at these meetings?

MURPHY: Not necessarily. They'd have pledges to the flag, and, uh, I guess we had a union pledge. I don't know. But I don't remember singing, at all.

GEORGE STONEY: What about praying, and preaching?

MURPHY: Yeah, they had praying. And my daddy would pray. He would be one of the people. If, uh, Red Lisk looked around and saw my daddy, why, uh, "Mr. King, lead us in prayer!" And that's what we did. (laughs)

GEORGE STONEY: We're going to be seeing some musicians tonight, who played at some meetings.

MURPHY: Oh, really?

GEORGE STONEY: Do you remember anything like that?

MURPHY: Oh yeah, yeah.

GEORGE STONEY: Tell us about that.

01:37:00

MURPHY: I can't -- I can't remember any of them who did, really. But yeah, um, a lot of locals had, uh, had enough people who could play an instrument, to form a little band, and they played. At the big meetings. And if a local was going to have something special, and all, why, sometimes they would get them to come and play. But I can't remember that we ever did that, at our local. But certainly at the -- at the big meeting.

GEORGE STONEY: Do you remember this big meeting in Charlotte, uh, just before Labor Day of 1934? Let me show you a picture of it. Uh...

MURPHY: Where did they meet? At [Hoskin's?]?

GEORGE STONEY: No, they -- they met at, uh, City Hall. I mean, at the -- at 01:38:00the, what was it? The municipal auditorium.

MURPHY: OK.

HELFLAND: I just want to go get my bag, for a sec.

GEORGE STONEY: OK, all right.

JAMIE STONEY: So, we'll just stop --

(break in audio)

MURPHY: -- was something that a lot of people didn't like them, as well as, uh, some of the other drinks. But they could afford it. But my friend, uh, whose brother was a druggist -- and I don't think that they were, uh, as bad off, financially, as some of the rest of us -- but we would bring -- I would bring crackers with peanut butter one day. She'd buy the Three Center. The next day, and we'd divide it. But we always laughed about it, because we had -- we had something to eat. It didn't matter. But we didn't spend, uh -- they had these, the cakes, you know? Big cookies. And they were five cents. A drink was ten cents. We have laughed about how much money we saved by splitting 01:39:00the Three Center, and eating crackers from home. Just as good as what he had.

HELFLAND: You know, I wonder, before we get to those pictures, if we -- if -- you came back from college, and you became secretary, and it seems like the local was organized already. Is that right? Could you talk about what you know about the local -- your father's local -- organizing? You had told us that he was able to organize lots of people.

MURPHY: Well, people thought that if Mr. King belonged to it, it was a pretty good organization. And we had some other fine people. Who, uh, were, uh, respected in church, and that area. And we -- we had, uh, the Baptist church, and it was the biggest church in this area. And they had some more churches. The Church of God, and -- but very few people belonged to that. But, in our 01:40:00church, we had -- I suspect we had 15 men who, who, uh, people respected for, uh, what they believed in. And they joined it. And they followed suit. They wanted to be, uh, one of the, uh, one of the ones. And, uh, they (inaudible). They were in good company, and it had to be good, or these men would not have belonged to it. It was not a matter of getting out there and begging people. My daddy could do it with, with just talking to somebody. And meeting somebody in the grocery store. Who would say, "Mr. King, what's a union doing?" You know. And Daddy, of course, would explain that, uh, uh, what had happened at certain areas, and, uh, that people needed help. And we are just in sympathy. It was more a -- it was more a sympathetic situation than it was activity.

01:41:00

HELFLAND: But still, it was a risk around here.

MURPHY: Yeah. It was -- it probably was not as much of a risk as people thought it was. I never -- you see, um... They would be afraid to fire you, because of repercussions. If you belonged to the union, you'd get fired. Because they -- they wouldn't do that, because they would lose too many employees, you know. So I don't know of anybody who was really fired for belonging to the union, but they could always find a reason -- another reason -- for eliminating you, or your job, or something. And that was the fear that people had.

GEORGE STONEY: Well, obviously there were a lot of people who had that -- uh, who had courage.

MURPHY: That's -- that's right.

01:42:00

GEORGE STONEY: Because look at this picture. This is from Charlotte. At the big meeting there, uh, just before they -- the big Labor Day parade, on September. Early September of '34.

MURPHY: I bet you a dollar I'm on here. (laughs) When was this, '33?

GEORGE STONEY: Thirty four.

MURPHY: Thirty four.

GEORGE STONEY: September the 2nd, '34. Do you recall that meeting?

MURPHY: Yeah.

GEORGE STONEY: Tell us about it.

MURPHY: It was just like all other meetings. A lot of people would get up and say what -- they would tell what had happened at their place, at their plant. And, uh, how they had felt, uh, put down because they belonged to the union, and that they were not give an opportunity to, to get a job, another job, that they had wanted, you know, to be promoted. And, and right. I guess the worst thing 01:43:00-- a lot of men who had, uh, worked at a place a long time, who felt like they -- they wanted to be a supervisor, or a section hand. And somebody else would get the job, if it came vacant. And they felt because they belonged to the union, they were, uh, not given the opportunity.

GEORGE STONEY: Well now, Gorman, whom you remember, you met him in New York, I think --

MURPHY: Yeah.

GEORGE STONEY: Tell us -- tell us about Gorman. Man in the white suit.

MURPHY: Well, he was a -- he was an individual who could, uh, play on your senses. He was a person who could make you feel like that you are -- you were 01:44:00being, uh... Eliminated from a -- from a, uh, opportunity to make things better. In your place. Agitated. And it's left up to you to fight the battle. So, go home and organize your people! Tell them what they, they, uh, can realize. By banding together, because there are a lot of you, and you can get what you want. And people would shout to high heavens, because they -- these people, who were here, they belonged to the union. And they wanted everybody else to belong to it.

GEORGE STONEY: But there was one fellow -- very important fellow, in New York -- who was against this. And that was actually the president of the union, named [McMahan?]. Who said, "We don't have the money. We've only got a million dollars in our campaign. There are 500,000 of these people. We don't have 01:45:00the money." But, the -- according to the newspapers, the southern delegates says, "They're firing us if we join the union. They're destroying us. We've -- we've got to come out."

MURPHY: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I think that was, uh, a felt -- wherever you went to a big meeting. And there was -- a lot of that was true, too. Uh, it, uh, it happened. Right here in our own area. I don't remember too much of it, right here, because the ACME mill people had, probably, the best, uh, group of people, except for the hosiery mill people. Uh, at all. The men who were in authority 01:46:00were men of, uh, that you respected. They were church men. They were on the finance committee. They were on the board of, uh, deacons. They were, uh, on the long range planning committees. They were everything. And people respected them, to that extent.

GEORGE STONEY: Who were the owners of the ACME, at that time?

MURPHY: The, the Linebergers.

GEORGE STONEY: Did you know, uh, Mr. Lineberger?

MURPHY: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, very well. He's, uh, uh -- they didn't -- see, they don't -- they didn't come into the mills, but, oh, maybe once a quarter, or something like that. They just come in, and out they would go. But, um, and he was a fine person. He was a -- he was a nice man. I remember one time he came in through the mill, and, uh, was going up to Joe Duncan's 01:47:00office. And Joe Duncan's office was like a little, (clock sounds) uh, built up stage, right in the middle of the mill --

GEORGE STONEY: Just a moment.

HELFLAND: Do you want to take that picture back, if she's going to talk about (inaudible)

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just a moment. Just a moment, I'm going to have to --

HELFLAND: We'll get back to that.

MURPHY: Well, I thought he stopped that clock.

HELFLAND: I guess he didn't.

GEORGE STONEY: Tell a little bit about Joe Duncan.

MURPHY: But, uh, Joe Duncan was, uh, um, a respected man. He was a, a, uh -- I think that he was a great Christian. And I think he -- I think he felt what the people felt, but he had to do what the Linebergers told him to do. You know. So he had to be -- well, as I said, his daughters were our best friends. Uh, his oldest daughter was pianist for my daddy at the church. So there was just such a wrap-up that you didn't feel all, uh, the, uh, things that a lot of 01:48:00people in other churches felt. Uh, anyway, AC Lineberger came through the plant, one day. And somebody said, "Get with it! Don't let anybody see you sitting down! Mr. Lineberger's coming through!" Well, I was about as afraid of him as I was you. I mean, I -- I didn't -- I wasn't afraid of -- I hadn't done anything that, that I cared about. So he came down the big alley. There was always a big alley, where [they came just?] right through. And he came down, and I was -- oh, about three -- I guess, about two or three alleys over. And I passed between, um, the -- the frames -- and he came down, and he saw me, and he came over there, where I was, and, uh, he said, um, uh, 01:49:00"Are you ever going to quit learning?" And I thought, "What in the world?" I said, "What do you mean?" He said, "Well, you're not satisfied with working, 12 hours, or eight hours." Whatever it was at that time. "But you've got to take classes at night. You've got to go to school." And I said, "Well, I just think I just want to -- better myself, a little bit." And he said, "How fast can you type?" I said, "About three words a minute." He said, "I have a lawyer friend in Gastonia. Who, uh, is looking for a secretary." And he said, "Now, I don't want you to leave here." But he said, "Would you be interested in going up and, uh, helping him out?" And I said, "When will I go?" He said, "Knowing you, 01:50:00you can go on Saturdays." Well, here I am. I don't know anything about legal profession. I've never been involved in that before. And I said, "OK, who is it?" He said, his lawyer Sigmund. "He's an older man. He's had a lot of -- of, things for me." And he said, "Of course, we have our own lawyers, here in Belmont, who, with the [Gastons?]." And I said, "Well, I'd be scared to death." He said, "No, you wouldn't." And I -- he made arrangements for me to go up there. Well, I could type a little bit better than that. I, I mean, I really was not that good. And I went up there, and he had called him and told him that I'd be up there. And he hired me, and I worked every Saturday. Sigmund was an older man. He would come back every 01:51:00Saturday, and dictate, and I took it in shorthand. I knew enough (inaudible). And I started working for him. Then I -- then I, uh, then we got back on this eight hour thing, and I worked for him and two more lawyers in Gastonia from, uh, eight o'clock, or seven o'clock in the morning, until 1:30. And I came back to the mill to work. And I finally got a -- a full-time job, there. With, uh, three lawyers. And it took three to get enough money. And I did all right until I had to go to the courthouse and take court dictation. And I was absolutely scared to death. Mr. Sigmund said, "I'll be right there by your side." And he said, "You type it up." And, uh, the case was a murder 01:52:00case. I typed it up. And he came to my house. We lived up in the country.

KENNETH: Take a little of this honey. You sound sort of husky.

GEORGE STONEY: Oh --