Kathy Lamb, Robert Lamb and James Hughes Interview

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JAMIE STONEY: And were speeding.

GEORGE STONEY: You got speed Judy.

JUDITH HELFAND: Oh ok. Now, I guess, your father called me up but that's because you were the instigator, right?

KATHY LAMB: Right.

HELFAND: Well what happened? How'd you find out about all this?

KATHY LAMB: I was at the Act II Southern Regional conference in Atlanta, and, 00:11:00um, I got some of the literature, and I was reading about Honea Path, about the, um, Bloody Thursday in Honea Path, and I knew my dad lived there when he was a boy, he was born and raised there. And I came home and ask him about it, and he started telling me everything, I said, "Well you need to call these people."

HELFAND: Wait a second, we're not called Bloody Thursday.

KATHY LAMB: They are, down there. That's Bloody Thursday, in Honea Path. It's called Bloody Thursday.

ROBERT LAMB: It's in the papers.

HELFAND: I'm gonna wait till the car --

KATHY LAMB: (laughter)

HELFAND: -- takes off, OK? They're probably not going to want to take off, they're gonna wanna watch to see what's going on.

KATHY LAMB: (laughter) And there comes the woman with no brakes, she been like that for six months.

HELFAND: OK, Kathy, this is what I want you to do.

KATHY LAMB: Yeah.

HELFAND: OK, I want you to say, "I always grew up hearing about Bloody Thursday," and then you read our article, right? So that's where it clicked, right?

KATHY LAMB: OK -- no, Honea Path clicked. I didn't grow up learning about it, I knew that there was a killing in Honea Path, but I didn't know, you know, they said that the union killed people, but I didn't know that it was the 00:12:00other way around.

GEORGE STONEY: Mm-hmm.

KATHY LAMB: K, that's the way -- when I saw it in the article that the people were killed in Honea Path, then I came home and asked Daddy about it, and he said -- you know, I said, "Did the union kill these people?" And he said, "No, the company killed them. The company was in, shooting out into the crowd." I said, "Are you sure?" And he said, "I was there, a man dropped dead at my feet."

HELFAND: Had you known that?

KATHY LAMB: No! (laughter) Almost 38 years old, and he never told me that. When they organized the union here at York, people talked about union violence, about, "Oh, we don't want a union here because of the violence," and all this stuff, and they said, "Oh, people got killed in Honea Path," and where I thought it was union violence, I thought (inaudible) (laughter) thought about, you know, what you visualize is union people going in and shooting people, and then when I asked my dad, I said, "Did the union shoot these people?" and 00:13:00when I came home, he said, "No," he said, "the company shot 'em. They were inside the mill shooting out into the crowd and killed people." That's what brought it all about.

HELFAND: So you said, "Daddy, you gotta call these people"?

KATHY LAMB: Yeah.

HELFAND: Why?

KATHY LAMB: Because I -- it was my impression that everybody else thought the same thing, that the union was the one doing the shooting because the people in the South are afraid of unions because of that. People in this area will not talk to you about a union because they're scared of 'em because of what happened in Honea Path. And people in the South, there-- that's the reason it's so hard to get a union in the South because people are afraid. They don't understand it.

HELFAND: So by having your father call us, what did you think what would happen?

KATHY LAMB: Um, well Daddy's memory is not that good sometimes, and I thought, "Well, maybe," you know, and then when he called, he said, "Oh, they're really interested and all, they should know," he said, you know, that he had talked with you and you were planning on coming down this summer, and he wanted 00:14:00to talk to you some more about it and everything, and then I got to talking to him about more details, and he started naming names of people. And, um, even un-- even until a couple of days ago, it just did not register with me that a company would kill people on a picket line. It still did not register with me until I read it in black and white.

HELFAND: What do you mean you read it in black and white?

KATHY LAMB: It's in the newspaper from Anderson, I went to the library and pulled it up on my microfilm, and copied it. And three-- oh, it was supposed to be 300 people te-- testify at a hearing about it, but they stopped at 100, and the people got up there and told the names of the people, and one man had 10 bullet holes in him, and they shot him in the back. One eight-year-old boy was killed, [went down?] for his mother, and there was scores of 'em that were injured. That -- when -- and I didn't even know my grandfather had testified 00:15:00until I read it in there. He was a night watchman, they told him to go home. And he saw them with guns in the mill before he left, and they told him to go home, and "Don't look back, you didn't hear anything, you didn't see anything." And when he testified, he said there were two in there, and he called the names of 'em that had guns, but he saw more guns, but he wouldn't tell who had 'em. The company had gone and deputized, um, this people that work in the mill, non-union people, non-strikers. And they just said, "Here, you're a deputy," and those are the ones who were up there killing people, they were in the second floor and had the guns out the window.

HELFAND: You look upset.

KATHY LAMB: I am.

GEORGE STONEY: Why do you think that, uh, you aren't told that?

KATHY LAMB: I don't know, um, it never was brought up, I don't -- um, my dad belonged to the UAW, uh, when he worked for Chrysler, and, I mean, it was just an organization he belonged to that did good for the employees, and nothing was ever brought up about un-- I never had -- every place I ever worked never had a union, and when I work down here and Hartmarx bought it, all their other plants were union, so they wanted this one to be union, the employees then said, "Why should they get $7 an hour and us work for minimum wage?" And then all of a sudden, somebody popped up and said, "Well, you know, it's people got killed in Honea Path when the union tried to go in there," and scared people, and, um, I don't know why I was never told, I guess it just came up. I was never in a situation where it was brought about a union was gonna come in, it was already there when we -- when we got to where we were going.

GEORGE STONEY: Where did you go to high school?

KATHY LAMB: In North Carolina.

GEORGE STONEY: In?

KATHY LAMB: In, uh, China Grove, North Carolina.

GEORGE STONEY: And it wasn't in your high school textbook?

KATHY LAMB: Um, I don't remember anything about it, really. Um, um...I can remember 'em talking about, um, the industrial movement and, um, automation, assembly lines, but nothing about unions, I don't recall. I was in 11th grade, and it was all American history, and I don't recall anything about unions, at all.

HELFAND: When you were talking before, you looked really upset.

KATHY LAMB: (inaudible) on people died upsets me. And...especially when an eight-year-old boy was standing there with his mother, was shot for no reason. That child wouldn't hurt anybod-- those people weren't hurting anybody, they all had sticks. They had broomsticks, they said one ma-- in the paper it quoted one man saying his stick was no bigger than a pencil. And for -- and -- I don't care for what reason, somebody shoots somebody in the back, it upsets me. Because somebodies running away from you, not gonna hurt you, and I don't 00:18:00think people should be killed for what they believe in. This is supposed to be a democracy and a free country, you're supposed to be able to say what you believe, and they were saying what they believed, standing on that street, that they wanted better working conditions and more money, and they wanted the child labor done away with, and they didn't want the farmers brought in while they were on strike to do their jobs. And for -- for people to die -- you think of people dying for what they believe in going to war in another country, you don't think about it happening on the street where you live, a few blocks from your house. And it's -- and that long ago, you don't think about it.

HELFAND: Ask your dad why he never told you.

KATHY LAMB: Why didn't you ever tell me?

JAMES HUGHES: Never get brought up. (laughter) You didn't need to know.

HELFAND: Why didn't she need to know?

HUGHES: Well, it was not brought up, so, why tell her? Something that someone brought up? Nothin' you can do about it either way. It's done.

KATHY LAMB: He knows I get -- I get angry, like this, and most time he doesn't tell me because he knows how it's gonna upset me when he tells me. And when I get something in my mind that upsets me, I don't let it rest till I -- I ge-- if I can't do anything about it, it really upsets me, if I can't do something about it, I do. It's like, when things happen in the plant involving the union or the employees, I don't stop until somebody does something about it, or somebody listens to what I have to say. I don't care if it's the business manager on up to the president, I don't care. Somebody's gonna listen to me. I'd probably been killed if I'd had been down there, 'cause I wouldn't have left. I woulda been laying dead in the street if I had been born, and I woulda been down there in the middle of it. 00:20:00And evidently, Daddy was nosey because he was up there in the middle of it, and he was eight-years-old. And he was supposed to be home in the bed (laughter) or at home minding his own business.

HUGHES: I couldn't do that. (laughter)

GEORGE STONEY: Why not?

HUGHES: Had to see all them people up there, had to know what's going on.

KATHY LAMB: He saw the flag, he said that he saw this guy with a flag up front, he wanted to see what was going on. (laughter)

HUGHES: And the guy standing up there with the flag, stopping everybody from going to work. I didn't know what's goin' on. In a few minutes, I knew what he want, bang, bang, bang, and the guy collapsed, dropped dead right at my feet. And the guy said, "Come on, cover him up," he said, "Don't let the dogs drag him away." I had a cousin on the back porch, he was about seven or eight years old...bullets starting flying through there, he said, "Momma, 00:21:00come get me." It's a wonder they didn't kill him. And -- but all them was -- wasn't no union employees in there, all these non-union employees, and I know their names. One was superintendent of the mill. One got killed over to Anderson Hospital, parking lot. And the other one, I don't know what happened to him. Rob Calvert. He's always been a company man. He gave him my job in Chiquola, when I was 14 years old. I put a lot of hard days in there. When I got out, I didn't go back.

GEORGE STONEY: When you worked -- starting working in that mill at 14, was there a lot of talk about this?

HUGHES: No. Never mentioned. Never mentioned. After that, happened down there, the union was never mentioned again. 'Cause, you know, they killed them. They were afraid. And they still are afraid. They're chicken. I belonged a union since 1950 until I retired, in 1970. I know there's no trouble, I've been on a strike, Douglas, Martin, no trouble.

GEORGE STONEY: Well now, back then, the superintendent of the mill was also --

HUGHES: The mayor. If you got locked up, you lost your job, you got fined, you had to move off in mill hill. You lost everything. Don't matter if you had two kids or 14 kids, you had to go. Wasn't right.

ROBERT LAMB: Explain to me why the police condoned what was goin' on, because any of that.

HUGHES: Because they're (multiple conversations; inaudible).

HELFAND: Excuse me, could you say that again?

ROBERT LAMB: I asked J.P. to explain to me why the police condoned what was going on in Honea Path, because they knew it. They'd done about it.

HUGHES: They done the shooting --

KATHY LAMB: Mm-hmm. They did --

HUGHES: -- the police did.

KATHY LAMB: -- the shooting too, yeah.

HUGHES: George [Pane?], (inaudible) and John Smith.

KATHY LAMB: Uh-huh, they were all sworn in policemen, they were the regular policemen, and they were there shooting too. The county policemen didn't do anything, they stood back and they didn't mess with -- this is according to what I read out of the newspaper, that, um, the witnesses said that, um, they named the -- the policemen and the sworn in deputies that the mayor swore in out of the plants, and, uh, I gue-- well, if he's the superintendent of the mill, and the mayor too, I mean, he was their boss too, and they had to do what he said. And in fact, in -- in one place in the newspaper article it says that, 00:24:00um, um, he says he wasn't on the property -- the superintendent was not on the property when it happened. And then a witness turns around and says that he was behind the mill office door firing at people, through the door.

HELFAND: Would you like to go in and get all that stuff that you got?

HUGHES: She's got it. Every bit of it. It's documented in the paper. It names names in there.

GEORGE STONEY: Now what amazes me is that those witnesses had the courage to -- to testify at that --

HUGHES: Right.

STONEY: -- coroner's hearing.

HUGHES: And (multiple conversations; inaudible) to testify, they stood chances of being killed.

HELFAND: Sure.

HUGHES: Sure did.

HELFAND: Yep.

KATHY LAMB: There's about --

ROBERT LAMB: I woulda thought twice before I testified.

KATHY LAMB: There's about 40 pages that I copied from August the 22nd, starting when the strikes was first talked about, and, um --

HELFAND: What paper is that?

KATHY LAMB: Anderson Independent. They've got issues back to 1878, and when I called 'em to see if they had 1934, and I knew the date, so we went and pulled it up, and, uh, it took me about three hours going through, reading the papers. And, um, I had to stop and read all the ads, at how cheap everything was back then too, (laughter) took me a while, um.

HELFAND: What were you thinking while you were going through that microfilm?

KATHY LAMB: It was freaking me out, I couldn't believe it, that all this stuff was in there, and then all the other things that were happening in the news, you know, like the Lindbergh baby trial, and all that was going on then too, and then there was things about, um, the cotton garment code being changed by FDR, and, um, um, a preacher that was kidnapped in North Carolina who faked his own kidnapping, there was all kind of strange things in here, and about, uh, someone threatening to kidnap the, um, Roosevelt grandchildren, and, um, there's all 00:26:00kinds of things in here. All kinds. There were pictures -- the pictures didn't come out too well of the national guard holding, um, guns with bayonets on people outside the mills, um. There's -- they've got the testimony in here, of all the people, what they said, there's pages of it.

HELFAND: Now, you said you found your grandpa in there.

KATHY LAMB: Yeah. Uh, B.F. Hughes, um, "B.F. Hughes, a night watchmen, who was shot, was not on strike, testified that he left the mill building at 7:00 a.m. on the morning of the difficulty. At that time, he said Harold Ashley and E.T.K. were in the mill, and they were armed. There were other armed men in the building, but he did not recall their names. The witness said he was at his home when the shooting occurred, and he knew nothing of the actual combat." But there's some in here that tell -- especially one that's a man named Lee 00:27:00Crawford was killed, he was shot several times -- they -- the doctors, uh, testimony said that he had 10 bullet holes in him, and they were all from behind. They said that the first time he was shot, he went to get up and they shot him, they said, um, Charlie Kay shot him three times in the back when he was trying to get up.

HUGHES: Charlie Smith.

KATHY LAMB: Yeah, uh, yeah, Charlie Smith, I'm sorry. Charlie Smith, shot him three times --

HUGHES: With a shotgun.

KATHY LAMB: -- in the back, with a shotgun. And one guy had a rifle, too. Um, the man that carried the flag, it says, "One witness Tuesday, Will [Ballard?], hobbled to the stand on crutches to say he was shot in the hip while carrying an American flag on the picket line. 'Lawrence Smith ordered me to get and fire the shotgun,' Ballard testified, and he lost consciousness thereafter. Guy Cannon, [Ovar?] [McGehed?], and Alan Jones, the latter on a visit to Honea Path, asserted Yarbrough was fatally wounded while running away with his hands up." They said that everybody there was shot from behind. But there's pages and 00:28:00pages that --

HUGHES: And if the [cops?] got machine gun goin', on top of the mill, there really would've been some murder.

KATHY LAMB: There's a picture in here from one mill that has a machine gun. It shows the National Guard holding the machine gun on top of the mill.

HUGHES: They had one down there, but the stupid fools didn't know how to run it, operate it. They some stupid people down there.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, what happened after that, there was a big funeral.

HUGHES: Yeah, she got a picture of it, ain't ye?

KATHY LAMB: There -- you can't see it that well, it was on a street in, um, Harper Street in Honea Path, and, uh, you didn't remember that that well, did you? When I told you about that?

HUGHES: I remember that.

KATHY LAMB: But it shows a big crowd there, and it says in here that the 00:29:00newsreel was made, and it was gonna be shown at the local theater next week, of the funeral.

HUGHES: They must have copies of it somewhere.

HELFAND: Can you read that pa-- that quote about the newsreel?

KATHY LAMB: Hang on. OK, I think it's on one these pages, it's this separate, 'cause I stapled all of them together. Here's one that really fascinated me, a car for $2,030. It was a Ford V8, I had to get that one for Daddy, I thought he'd like that. Let's see...

HUGHES: My uncle testified in that too.

HELFAND: Really?

KATHY LAMB: Here's the picture, you can't -- you can see the outline of it, there's the National Guard men under the machine gun, on top of a roof. OK...

HELFAND: So you had always thought...

KATHY LAMB: I thought the union killed the people, that's what I thought.

HUGHES: But they didn't.

KATHY LAMB: Union violence, to me, was union going in with sticks and whatever and killing people, but I didn't -- never dreamed that the -- a company would kill people. Oh, here's an ad that they put in the paper from, uh, I couldn't get it all on the copy, "The attitude of the textile workers in this station is a tribute to their loyalty and good judgment. We'd be undersigned merchants and businessmen if Anderson wished to commend the textile employees for doing their bit in the national recovery program, which has made good progress, and with the cooperation of all, will continue until we get our country back to normalcy. We are proud of the high type workers of the community, and we are impressed with their action in considering local problems on their own judgment for the best interest of themselves, their families, their city, their state, and their nation. We congratulate them for keeping the 00:31:00wheels of industry turning in Anderson." If that's not anti-union, I don't know what is. (laughter)

HELFAND: You knew they were anti-union.

KATHY LAMB: Yes, but, to put it in the papers (laughter) I don't think anybody would do that now. I don't know where this thing is...

GEORGE STONEY: Do you -- do you remember anything about the funeral?

HUGHES: Vaguely. I didn't know if they were gonna have a funeral, but they wouldn't let me go, because it was gonna be too many people there, and my mother and father said -- they said they didn't no room for kids, they'd get trampled. So I didn't go. But actually (inaudible), one of them talked to the National Guard -- you know how kids are, anybody with a uniform on. But I heard they wasn't National Guard, they come to reform school. They put uniforms on.

ROBERT LAMB: Don't you have an article in there too about --

KATHY LAMB: Here it is --

ROBERT LAMB: -- that funeral, to where it was held in an open field?

KATHY LAMB: Yeah. They just –

JAMIE STONEY: Can you just hold please, I got a battery.

(break in video)

HELFAND: -- do you telling Kathy about, uh --

ROBERT LAMB: Yeah, I asked Kathy.

HELFAND: No, no, do it like you said it, not like I asked. Like, don't you have --

ROBERT LAMB: OK, don't you have an article in there where they said that they had held the funeral in an open field on Harper Street?

KATHY LAMB: I'm (inaudible) here I do. I found the one about the newsreel, that's "Honea Path Pictures Be Shown, Honea Path funeral pictures taken by Paramont News in Honea Path Saturday."

HELFAND: Kathy, please start that again, I'm sorry.

KATHY LAMB: OK, OK. Good?

HELFAND: Yeah.

KATHY LAMB: "Honea Path Funeral Pictures Be Shown. Honea Path funeral pictures taken by Paramont News in Honea Path Saturday will be shown today and tomorrow at the Strand Theater. It was announced last night by manager Jimmy [Cartlage?] of the Strand. Three newsreel trucks were on hand for the funeral, 00:33:00which was held in an open field on Harper Street." Let's see...

HUGHES: There's a mad people over here. There's a [county?] man who got killed, had four sons, they said if they ever found out who'd done it, they'd kill them.

KATHY LAMB: Here's one, here.

HUGHES: Well, they found out who done it, but he said he got religion, I mean, that's a old story. [If you're?] (inaudible) you get a religion, but he got killed over in Anderson county parking lot, some woman heard them kill him. I done (inaudible).

KATHY LAMB: Um, there's, um, an article in here about an employee shoots wild and strike body halts him, there was a holiness preacher in Seneca, one of 109 who (inaudible) shoots into a crowd of strikers last night, none injured. That was in Lonsdale mill. Can you read the article?

HELFAND: What happened?

KATHY LAMB: A holiness preacher went in there and shot into the mill. It's, uh, OK -- uh, "Five employees of Lonsdale mill remained in the town jail tonight as an aftermath of shooting episode at the mill late today. A man named Eaton, a holiness preacher, fired twice into a crowd of strikers when they [halted?] him at the mill this afternoon. His shots went wild. Eaton's four companions in a car with him and a striker were arrested by national guardsmen after the incident, and placed in jail. Guard officers and W.H. [Lowry?], not policemen, did not know the man's names. The striker later was released. Eaton and his four friends had been in Seneca, a mile away from the mill, to buy groceries. As they were passing the mill on their way home, the strikers called at them, "Stop." Eaton apparently became frightened as the strikers approached, and he started firing. He was quickly disarmed by guardsmen, brought into the mill sector (inaudible) to and then armed pickets, composed of strikers, threatened trouble. Eaton was one of the 109 men who returned to work in the mill yesterday under the protection of guards. Members of the local 00:35:00textile union held a meeting tonight a mile and a half from town, but there were no reports of disorder. A strike has been progress for six weeks." That's pretty bad when a preacher shoots into a crowd.

GEORGE STONEY: But, uh, another thing is, that superintendent of the mill, and the mayor, wasn't he also superintendent of the Sunday School?

HUGHES: George Lollis was superintendent of the mill then. He was su-- he was superintendent of Sunday School too. One of these, "I'm holier than thou," you know. He's the biggest crook in town. He was in behind the door shooting, those two witnesses in the paper there said they'd seen him. Now he's dead now, been dead for years. But I'm afraid he went down below. He said he didn't know nothing about it. Said he didn't hear any shout. He hadn't been that far away [under?] the mill. If he lived anywhere in 00:36:00(inaudible) hear all them shots.

HELFAND: Um, you told me on the telephone that your father came home late at night, what happened to your dad that night, tell us what happened.

HUGHES: My father came home, really about three o'clock in the morning, not at seven o'clock like that paper said. He come home about three o'clock in the morning. He said, "There's gonna be trouble," he said, "They in the mill, and they armed. They told me to come home and go to bed." So he went to bed. And about seven o'clock, I got up. (coughing) 'Scuse me. And I went out to see what was going on. And I seen all these people up there holding American flag. Well I knew there was people in the mill 'cause my father told me so, told everybody to know. And I knew there was gonna be trouble, but 00:37:00who's goin' to listen to a kid? Eight-year-old kid? So I didn't say nothing, I just went -- moseying up to see what was going on. I was nosey back then, I wasn't afraid of nothing, didn't make a difference what it was. And that's when the shooting started. Tell you, there used to not be no [fence?] around the mill, and had a street walkin' up to the mill 'bout as wide as that road, I said, "Oh, (inaudible)," and they were standin' right there, where you come up this way, and you come up this way. The people from the old mill hill come up that way, and people from the new mill hill come up the other way. And, uh, they -- they were right in the middle of 'em. And they were stopping, well I say, "Don't come to work." And they didn't go to work. 00:38:00(inaudible) picked up sticks, and none of 'em had no guns though, and I knew they had a machine gun on top of the mill, but they didn't have (inaudible) sense enough to operate it. Now we have somethin' like that (inaudible), (sighs) I can't tell how many hundreds of people would get killed, but they run seven days a week there now. Twenty-four hours a day. I wouldn't make it, when I worked at (inaudible), I would make $8 a week, that's for 40 hours. Forty hard hours. I worked two weeks, I had to go to the hospital with a ruptured appendix. That's how hard it was. My shoes used to get wet just by walking out, it was so hot in there. And the water was (inaudible). I was 00:39:00takin' off cloth, me and a bunch of boys about my age, and they're hot, now there's air condition. And what's the big difference?

HELFAND: And you said your uncle testified?

HUGHES: Yeah, he's in there. Grady Gilmer.

HELFAND: Well, what was he doing there?

HUGHES: He was on strike.

KATHY LAMB: He was on the picket line.

HUGHES: He was on the picket line.

HELFAND: Your uncle was on the picket line?

HUGHES: Yeah.

KATHY LAMB: Mm-hmm.

HUGHES: He (inaudible) to trial.

KATHY LAMB: There's two of them, there's two Gilmers in here and we're related to both of them. Uh, "Grady Gilmer told the jury he went on picket on September 6th and he saw Rob Calvert shoot Lee Crawford." They've got the doctor's testimony in here and everything, that viewed the bodies. Um...um, "E.E. Gilmer testified that he saw Charles Smith and [Chief Page?] fire shots into the crowd."

HELFAND: E. E. Gilmer is your...

KATHY LAMB: That'd be your cousin?

HUGHES: Yeah.

KATHY LAMB: Cousin.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, did you know that, uh, any of those relatives had been in the union?

KATHY LAMB: No. I never knew any of my relatives had ever been in the union.

GEORGE STONEY: Why?

KATHY LAMB: (laughter) He never told me. And all the years I came here -- I've been comin' here since I was a -- uh, five or six years old, and union was never mentioned. Union was never mentioned in my house until it went in where I worked. And then, he never told me, you know, any of that ever happened in Honea Path, I heard it from other people that work with me.

GEORGE STONEY: Do you think that if more people knew about all of this, uh, it would've made it easier for you and the union in your plant?

KATHY LAMB: Probably. If they had known the truth, but they're -- I mean, people are still scared of it. He called his cousin -- husband, the other day, 00:41:00and asked him, would he talk to y'all, and he said, "No, I'd rather not." He's still scared, it's 60 years that two are picketers, they still scared.

GEORGE STONEY: Did he explain to you why?

HUGHES: He said I'd better not talk to him. I knew what was wrong. That's been 58 years ago.

KATHY LAMB: Well, even now, you can ask people that work where I do that have -- you know, they got sisters and brothers that are Daddy's age, and they -- they've asked him, and no one talks about it. They're still scared.

HELFAND: You mean, you brought this up at work?

KATHY LAMB: Uh-huh.

HELFAND: Tell us about that.

KATHY LAMB: Um, one lady, um, she's got a brother that is about Daddy's age, maybe a couple years older, and she went home and asked him about it, she's in her 50s. And he told her, he said, "You don't need to know about it." He said, "Things like that don't happen anymore, you don't need to know about it."

GEORGE STONEY: Do you think the company's encouraging that feeling?

KATHY LAMB: My company? We just got bought out by an unnamed person, (laughter) I'm not gonna say who it was, but he's anti-union. He says he'll go along, but they're having to push him --

GEORGE STONEY: Mm-hmm.

KATHY LAMB: -- I mean, he signed a successor clause that he would honor the contract, but in the same breath, when they get out the door, and he gets me in a group, knowing I'm the kingpin, he takes them to the cleaners and takes me with it. "I can give you the world, and you'll decide when a contract comes to an end, I can give you better this, better that." Well if he can give it to us, give it to us now. Don't let the contract st-- we'll open that contract up and he can put anything he wants in there as long as it's better than what we got. But then when you get him up to that point, "Oh, no, I don't wanna do that." He backs off.

HUGHES: Another Yankee.

KATHY LAMB: (laughter)

ROBERT LAMB: But with what happened 58 years ago, could that be the reason that a lot of these companies tell you now when they hire you, you mention a union, you're gone?

KATHY LAMB: Well, people -- people in the South think that. Once you -- if you 00:43:00go in -- I mentioned a union one time when [Nices?] owned it, it was a family business before Hartmarx got it. And I got mad one day, I said, "What they need here is a darn union," and they went, "(gasp), don't say that." And I heard Mr. [Frankinice?] was standing behind me and he said, "Before I let a union in here I'll shut the doors." And that's the reason they came down here from up north, they got cheap labor down here. They had unions up north. They had closed shop up north. You had -- if you had a majority, you had a union, everybody was in it, and they said, "Well we'll go down south, we'll pay 'em minimum wage, they'll think they've got everything in the world," and we didn't know the difference. But when Hartmarx came in and bought it, and they had 38,000 employees and 38 plants, we knew that these other people -- we got one of the contracts and looked at it, and we said, "Why should we work for $5 an hour when they're making $7.65 an hour? We're just as good as they are, we work at the same company." But...it's...there's 00:44:00still a fear that -- I think there will always be a fear, because it wasn't only in this area. It was of the South, the north, I mean -- but I don't know what the difference is in the north, is people don't -- in my opinion, don't seem afraid there like they are here. Even though there was violence in Rhode Island and Massachusetts, all up in through there, people are not afraid up there like they are here. I don't know if it's because the union's more prevalent up there and it's a accepted thing, and here it's far and few between, because when they got -- this local went in here, the AFLCIO had a big convention in Myrtle Beach, and (inaudible) I can rock the house down because they got a union in Belton. And the union put, um, um, posters on the back of their cars when it went back to Knox, but we did it in Belton, and people wondered what they did in Belton, (laughter) they asked what they had on the 00:45:00cards. They were so proud of it. But, um, I think today's union leaves a lot to be desired, it's not perfect, nothing is. It can use improving, but I think the union needs to listen to the people more than the pocketbook. I may get in trouble for saying this, but I'm gonna say it. They need a budget manager big time, (laughter) because there's a lot of money that can be put to better use than it's been put to now. Um, they're still interested in the problems, they care about people, sometimes they don't go about it in the best possible way. Um, but I'm not anybody to be telling them how to run their business, but I see what's happening around, I live it, everyday.

GEORGE STONEY: Well it's -- it's your business.

KATHY LAMB: Right, it's -- it -- they'll tell you, uh, "Forget about a bad contract," but you can't forget a bad contract when you live it everyday when you pick that paycheck up on Friday, and it's not what you think it 00:46:00should be. You know you're working harder than what you're getting back. But, it's like, at the end of this contract, we'll fight for another one, and we'll keep fighting till we get what we want.

GEORGE STONEY: Judy?

HELFAND: Yeah.

GEORGE STONEY: Judy, I think we're -- we're beginning to lose the light, uh, so –

JAMIE STONEY: Stop

(break in video)

KATHY LAMB: I thought it was wonderful.

GEORGE STONEY: -- if there are other --

JAMIE STONEY: I want to shift my filter.

GEORGE STONEY: OK.

JAMIE STONEY: And I thought they might look a little funky, but it's interesting. That music video look. (laughter)

KATHY LAMB: I wonder if we can be on MTV. This is great.

JAMIE STONEY : OK, when you're ready, ma'am.

KATHY LAMB: OK, where do you want me to -- (laughter)

HELFAND: You were just telling us about the doctor's testimony.

KATHY LAMB: OK, the doctor's testimony in here, let's see...

HUGHES: Doctor [Stedemeyer?].

KATHY LAMB: Stedemeyer, yeah. Uh...let me get to it. It's begin-- OK, "Doctor E.R. Donald of Honea Path, the first witness, said six of the seven men who died in result of the battle died directly of bullet wounds and the seventh, C.R. Rucker, of pneumonia, attributed to his wounds. The other slain were R.T. Yarbrough, E.M. Knight, Ira Davis, Claude Cannon, Maxie Peterson, and Lee Crawford. All were strikers and all lived at Honea Path, except Peterson, who came from Greenwood. Doctor Donald said only one of the seven, Crawford, bore powder burns, and those were over the abdomen. He said several bullets passed through most of the slain men and that Yarbrough's body bore ten bullet wounds. Yarbrough and Knight, he continued, apparently were killed by buck shot from shotguns. Similar testimony was given by Doctor J.W. [Hainey?] and Doctor E.S. Studemeyer, also from Honea Path, except that Doctor Studemeyer said he had 00:48:00not examined the body of Brooker, who died three days after the shooting." I'm down in here, it says, "Two, J.C. Cox and W.C. Dukes of Honea Path asserted they heard a signal whistle blow some minutes before the shooting. Dukes said that armed men appeared at the window at the signal, as if it was planned."

HELFAND: So they all told the truth?

KATHY LAMB: Mm-hmm. Everybody told the truth, nobody got up there and said, um, I, you know, -- "These people were going in the mill, they were violent," nobody said this. Nobody, out of all of them.

GEORGE STONEY: Do you have -- do you have any reason to know [you?], why nothing was -- nobody was ever punished, no decision was --

HUGHES: I had a inquest, but that's all that ever happened. The place was (inaudible). It's like nothing happened. George Page, E.G. Kay, and Charlie Smith. Charlie Smith died screaming with a gun in his hand, saying, 00:49:00"They're coming after me."

STONEY: How many years later?

HUGHES: Back in the '50s. He'd already retired.

ROBERT LAMB: Did, in the newspaper articles also state that this Page guy was the chief of police, and he was involved in the shooting?

HUGHES: He shot some people.

ROBERT LAMB: So, you know, they were condoning what was going on.

KATHY LAMB: Well, the sheriff of the county said that he didn't deputize anybody, and they were not involved in it whatsoever. Um, this one man, Henry Hawkins, Belton textile workers said that when he went to Honea Path along with a large number of others because some of the Honea Path strikers had reported that four Belton boys were working at the Honea Path mill. "'We went down there to ask our boys to come out of the Honea Path mill, but we went peaceably and were not armed. We were on the grounds when the sheriff arrived,' the witness said, 'the first shot fire came from a second story window of the mill and was fired through the trees.' He said he saw Charlie Smith, Honea Path 00:50:00policeman, shoot Lee Crawford three times in the back while Crawford was on the ground and was apparently trying to rise. He said that Crawford was -- had already been shot once in the stomach, and then when Smith open fired, he was on his hands and knees making efforts to rise. The witness said he saw others shooting, but that he did not know any of the men who were doing it. He said that many of the pickets had sticks, but were otherwise unarmed. They had not been ordered to keep off no grounds, he said. Hawkins said the Belton workers came to Honea Path about 2:30 in the morning, and that they attended a union meeting at the Honea Path hall soon after that."

GEORGE STONEY: Oof.

HUGHES: There you are, cut and dried. Everything's cut and dry. They got away with murder.

GEORGE STONEY: Now --

ROBERT LAMB: But nobody in this area will even discuss what happened in 1934, because I have asked several people, did they remember it, "Yes, I remember 00:51:00it, but I don't want to talk about it."

HELFAND: Can you say that -- just say that again from the beginning.

ROBERT LAMB: OK, everybody in this area that I've talked to about what happened in 1934, as far as this union strike, they'll tell you, "Yes, I remember it, but I will not discuss it." They're -- it's like they're terrified.

HUGHES: They're chicken.

ROBERT LAMB: Exactly.

GEORGE STONEY: You mentioned that, uh, you mentioned that you hadn't seen -- that that was anti-union stuff then, in the papers? You said it wouldn't be done now? Here's an article that appeared in the -- the -- from --

KATHY LAMB: Gastonia.

GEORGE STONEY: -- yes, was a Gastonia paper from, uh, Cox news service for Greenville, South Carolina.

KATHY LAMB: Mm-hmm.

GEORGE STONEY: And it's very much in the same vein, I think.

KATHY LAMB: (laughter)

HUGHES: BMW?

KATHY LAMB: I -- uh-huh, I read, uh, one in the Greenville News, and it said that, uh, uh, they're looking to organization BMW because the plants in Germany are unionized, and they're wanting to pay the workers here like $2 or $3 less on the hour here than they pay an equivalent in Germany, and that's not gonna work. They think people in the United States are stupid, we aren't stupid. We're not gonna work for less than they do. We're going to make the same quality product, you're gonna be paid the same wages or better.

M1: Would you read that for us?

KATHY LAMB: The whole thing. OK, um, "Unions face tough bargaining with BMW, company to discourage organized labor. Cox News Service, Greenville, South Carolina. A burly teamster with a Southern drawl, Morris Step, is among the most optimistic of the local residents when fixing the odds of a union organizing BMW's first U.S. auto plant. "I give them a 50, 50 chance," said Step, preferring to shift away from odds making into a tirad against the chamber of commerce in Greenville county, which boasts the lowest unionized rate 00:53:00in the country. Step, and those of like mind, the 3,000 or so union workers in Greenville and Spartanburg counties out of a total 337,000 workers, are looking away from the patterns of local history that make their gamble seem much more risky. In negotiations with upstate powerbrokers, BMW promised to discourage union activity at the 1.9 million square foot plant, and got in return $120 million in a tax and development concession.

GEORGE STONEY: Could you read that over again, that's the nub of it.

(break in video)

M1: (inaubile)

M2: (inaudible)

JAMIE STONEY: I got a whole bunch of—it feels nice.

GEORGE STONEY: We're gonna move inside in just a moment.

JAMIE STONEY: Ok, go ahead.

KATHY LAMB: I'm surprised the Belk news hasn't been down here wondering what's going on.

HELFAND: What was that?

KATHY LAMB: I'm surprised the Belk news hadn't been down here, wondering 00:54:00what's going on, or had the police there, "What's goin' on over there?"

HUGHES: Want me to call them?

KATHY LAMB: No.

HELFAND: Do you think they know that we're here?

KATHY LAMB: No.

HUGHES: No.

KATHY LAMB: I didn't tell anybody.

GEORGE STONEY: Ok.

KATHY LAMB: "In negotiations with upstate powerbrokers, BMW promised to discourage union activity at a 1.9 million square foot plant, and got in return $120 million in tax and development concessions. Benefits to the region are estimated to be at more than $1 billion."

GEORGE STONEY: That's -- so then they're still pushing that bargain of, if you keep the union out, we'll help you.

ROBERT LAMB: But BMW is gonna have to spend more money than they think. Part of the land that BMW purchased is what they call a wetland, you cannot mess up wetland in this state, so they've got to build around the wetland part.

KATHY LAMB: It's gonna cost --

ROBERT LAMB: Because it's rare in this state.

KATHY LAMB: -- It's gonna cost them some money, but they've got it.

HUGHES: They can take their little cars and go back to Germany, for all I care.

STONEY: Judy, Judy, we should move in now.

HELFAND: Yeah, no, yeah, just tell us -- now, you heard all about this and then you -- you were in the mill, what happened?

ROBERT LAMB: About this with BMW?

HELFAND: No.

ROBERT LAMB: Or the unions?

HELFAND: You were wo-- you were working as --

GEORGE STONEY: At Honea Path.

HELFAND: -- a night watchman.

ROBERT LAMB: OK, I was working as a site supervisor, but the plant I was working was not in Honea Path even though it was part of [Ilm Lowenstein?], it was in Anderson. And I have found old photographs that dates back to the '30s and '40s, some '50s, um, I have found old pictures that some -- the slides is on glass, I found one old coin that dates 1885.

HELFAND: OK, you know what, we'll -- we'll do that inside when you show it to us. OK, but, but one other thing, you grew up in Salisbury?

ROBERT LAMB: I was born in Wilmington, North Carolina. I spend nine years in Lumberton and [Fedbolt?], North Carolina. Then we moved to a little town called 00:56:00Gold Hill, outside of Salisbury, and then my parents moved to Rockwell. I was married and moved to Salisbury. I returned to Rockwell, and then I met my wife, and...that's a long story. (laughter)

HELFAND: The reason I ask is just because this, you know, this union organization and this strike was all over in North Carolina, too.

ROBERT LAMB: Yeah.

HELFAND: And I was just wondering if you'd ever heard about it.

ROBERT LAMB: I had never heard of it.

HUGHES: In Gastonia.

KATHY LAMB: He worked at [Cannon?] when they tried to --

ROBERT LAMB: Our work was Cannon mills when they first tried to organize back in the early '70s. I was for the union, my mother worked in the same plant, she was against the union. We lost, as far as the union vote, getting the union in. Now, Cannon Mills is trying to get another union in, they lost the election here about a year ago, and now they're trying to renegotiate, rebuild, in order to have another election, hoping that they can get it in this time. If they fail this time, from what I've been told, they are totally out of the picture. Then they're going to have to wait a period of years before they 00:57:00come back.

HELFAND: And how -- how -- how come you -- how did the company react to the union organizing in '74, when you were there?

ROBERT LAMB: We were threatened with our jobs. I was single, I told them I didn't care.

HUGHES: That's what I would do.

ROBERT LAMB: (laughter) They threatened to, uh -- at the time then, I had bought a car. They told me, they said, "We can have your car taken away from you if we terminate you," the company's telling me this, and I told them, I said, "You don't know how I vote," I said, "I may stand here and tell the union I'm for the union, I may stand here and tell the company I'm for the company, but you don't know how I vote until I go behind those curtains, and then nobody knows." And they asked me, "Are you voting union?" I said, "That is yet to be seen." And I never would tell how I voted, to this day, I've never stated exactly how I voted.

HELFAND: Why not?

ROBERT LAMB: Because it's nobody's business. (laughter) My wife don't even know how I voted. She knew that I wanted the union in, the company gave 00:58:00good point of views, the union gave good point of views, but nobody, to this day, knows how I voted.

GEORGE STONEY: When they, uh, were having the campaign, did they show you stuff, uh, about violence and so forth?

ROBERT LAMB: The companies will tell you, "We will not -- we cannot show you filmstrips or anything about a union." The plant that I was a supervisor in security, I found filmstrips that the company had to show the employees about a union. Now, Cannon Mills never showed us anything about a union, but I do know that some companies will do it.

HELFAND: Can you show that to us?

ROBERT LAMB: Yeah, I have it inside.

STONEY: Let's -- let's go inside.

(break in video)

HELFAND: OK, can you show that to us?

ROBERT LAMB: Yeah, I'd be glad to, it's inside.

HELFAND: OK.

GEORGE STONEY: OK. Let's cut inside now.

(break in video)

HELFAND: When you walk over there, tell us how you were working as a night watchman, or if that's what it was, and they were going to throw this out and you found it, or something like that.

ROBERT LAMB: OK, I was working at the M. Lowenstein plant, which was Orr-Lyons in Anderson, and they told me anything I found, I could throw out, keep, whatever. I had found filmstrips, old photographs, old newspapers, old scrapbooks, some of your old photographs, goes on a safety award for like, a million hours. You've got, uh, I'd say probably 25, 30 of 'em. And it's just talking about, you know, where they were -- had their million hours 01:00:00for safety, no accidents. Uh...the filmstrips that I was talking about earlier, that companies show about unions, that a lot of companies say they don't show, came from the M. Lowenstein plant. History of your filmstrips with your record to go with it, and it's part one, in labor unions. So you can get a better view of that record.

HELFAND: Have you listened to it?

ROBERT LAMB: No, I haven't. Uh, some of your old newspapers that they were throwing out, I just kept one of 'em. Uh, let's see...this newspaper dates November the 20th of '67. And it shows some of the insides of the plant. Uh, 01:01:00you got some of the, uh, old pictures that is on glass.

HELFAND: It's a mill village.

KATHY LAMB: Mm-hmm.

ROBERT LAMB: Uh, you got a -- this is like a man and a woman in a horse and carriage. This is a group picture of some of the people that worked in the plant. This picture here is taken downtown Anderson, South Carolina.

JAMIE STONEY: Tilt it down just a bit, there we go.

HELFAND: Have you looked at those filmstrips?

ROBERT LAMB: No. I've been meaning to go to the library to look at them, but I've not took the time. Here's one of their scrapbooks that I found. 01:02:00It's like a company dinner where they had had their million hours for, uh, safety. They were given, uh, different awards at this dinner, from what I can gather on the photographs, uh, they did have a flag made, uh, they had an old basketball team. The gym is inside the plant above the office buildings. OK. Here's a thing from Orr-Lyons plant, telling about the corporation of everyone at this plant in regards to accident prevention and safety as resulted in our 01:03:00running three shifts from August 23, 1946, to March 8th, 1947, without a lost-time accident. This part's of where it had hit the Anderson Independent to where people had went through the safety program, this is on their safety prevention. It dates, uh, I think I remember seeing a date -- Tuesday, May 15th, 1947. This is one of their programs for the dinner that they had.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, these weren't -- those filmstrips were probably about the same date, you think?

ROBERT LAMB: Probably so.

GEORGE STONEY: Let's, uh, take it off and see if there's a copyright date on the filmstrip. It'd probably be on the record.

ROBERT LAMB: Two records in here. (pause) I don't see it on the records.

HELFAND: Maybe you can open up one of those filmstrips and look at it in the light and see what you see.

ROBERT LAMB: (inaudible). Hm.

HELFAND: What do you see?

ROBERT LAMB: Labor unions in America. Says, uh..." [Industeration?] [sic], 1840 to 1860, the birth of industrial unions." This is showing back, way, way 01:05:00back, about unions. Here's one that says, uh, "1865 through 1917," on different parts of the film. "Goals of the kingdom. AF of L's guiding policies." Got New York Times in -- on here, and it's got a thing with Roosevelt on it. Scientific management and labor. Labor war won -- labor's world war I policy." That's just some of what's on this particular filmstrip.

GEORGE STONEY: Could you read anything on that?

KATHY LAMB: Yeah, this one, "what to do if the union drive begins," and it says, uh, "51% unau-- from 51% of employees on authorization card -- card check -- where they'll check the cards against employment role, and there'll be an election when cards are received from 30% of employees," um, then about a contract, "union dues are deducted," the man's got a frown on his face. Uh. (laughter) "Close shop."

HELFAND: Can you say that again about the union dues being deducted?

KATHY LAMB: It shows a picture of, um, union dues being collected, like a man's pulling out of an envelope, and the man has a frown on his face, and it says, "close shop, it's outlawed, Taft-Hartley Act of 1947," I think it 01:07:00says seven, "check off union shop," um, "unfair labor practices, union membership up and down," um. (inaudible) Um, oh this is cute, it's got, um, the union with the -- a puppet show, and it's got the employees on the puppet strings. That really burns me up. (laughter) It sa-- it shows about a house calling, and it's got a sign that says, "God bless our home." Um. It shows 'em come into your house, eating from your table. "Fifty-one percent 01:08:00and 30% unfair labor practices," um. I don't know what this means, it's got, um, three men with the cap and gown on, three basketball player -- four basketball players, and four referees goin' at at each other, I don't understand what that means.

HELFAND: What do you think?

HUGHES: I don't know what that could be.

KATHY LAMB: Well, I guess the cap and gowns the NLRB, and the referees are the, uh, company, and the basketball players are the union. I mean, the employees. Oh, yeah, that's what it looks like. Or maybe the cap and gown {phone rings] are the, um, u-- yeah, cap and gown would be the union. [phone rings] And then it would be the company and the employees going back and forth. And it shows you about getting raises, wondering how much you're gonna get. Um. This 01:09:00department -- let's see, "unfair labor pra--" this unfair labor practice is in here several times. (pause) Can't see what this one is.

JAMIE STONEY: Dad.

(break in video)

HUGHES: What would this C-SM be?

ROBERT LAMB: It's [praying?] into that record.

JAMIE STONEY: Don't know.

GEORGE STONEY: Hand it to your wife and she can read that to the --

ROBERT LAMB: OK, how 'bout reading what's in that circle?

KATHY LAMB: "American Association of Industrial Management. National Metal 01:10:00Trades Association." Hmm. So, each side of this record goes with one of those.

ROBERT LAMB: With one of the filmstrips.

KATHY LAMB: Right.

ROBERT LAMB: OK. Two where in your plants today, they use, you know like your plastic cones --

KATHY LAMB: Yeah.

ROBERT LAMB: -- for your yarn to go on.

KATHY LAMB: Yeah.

ROBERT LAMB: Then, I got some of these too. They used paper cups. A lot of people uses these to make different flower arrangements or whatever with. That's the reason I've got 'em. (inaudible) One of the things that I like the very most that I found inside the plant, I found it in a toolbox. The plant was, remember, is totally abandoned, they told me anything I found to throw out or keep. The thing I like the most is this 1985 silver dollar, it's in mint condition.

GEORGE STONEY: Uh, say that again because you're getting --

KATHY LAMB: 1895.

ROBERT LAMB: 1885 silver dollar, this in mint condition.

HELFAND: Did they pay in silver dollars then?

ROBERT LAMB: I don't know, it was in the back corner of one of the toolboxes.

KATHY LAMB: They used to have a paymaster that came around, paid you in cash. They had a thing that went around their neck, my grandmother told me about this, and they had like a -- it looks like -- she's telling me it was like what they used to -- cigarette girls used to selling in restaurants and stuff, it was a wooden box thing and it had your name and how much money you were supposed to get, and they went around and paid everybody on Friday.

HUGHES: They paid me like that.

KATHY LAMB: And paid 'em cash money.

HUGHES: Yeah, they paid me like that.

KATHY LAMB: That was before social security and things (multiple conversations; inaudible) and you didn't have to --

HUGHES: This mill here, they paid you two dollar bills. And in [Reger?], Texas (inaudible) they come around and paid you in cash. And you was to get two dollar bill then, but for some reason or another, they [played?] out.

KATHY LAMB: Back then, two dollars were worth two dollars now, it's not worth two dollars anymore. (laughter)

HELFAND: Can you say it's after 1963, you figured out it was --

KATHY LAMB: Yeah, it's got a zip code on it. And zip codes came in 1963. 'Cause I could remember where I was living when it came in. It's Porter Henry and Company Incorporated, New York, New York, 10017.

HUGHES: More them Yankees.

KATHY LAMB: Daddy! God.

GEORGE STONEY: Oh, we know, we know that there are firms that specialize in anti-union activities.

KATHY LAMB: Mm-hmm.

GEORGE STONEY: And we've seen that -- seen them operate in Kannapolis, and they put our material like this.

KATHY LAMB: Yeah.

HUGHES: But you know, the union spent $1 million over the last time.

KATHY LAMB: Three million dollars.

HUGHES: How much?

KATHY LAMB: Three million.

HUGHES: Three million dollars, and bought us a vote by 1000.

KATHY LAMB: A hundred.

HUGHES: A hundred?

KATHY LAMB: A hundred.

HUGHES: Now...

KATHY LAMB: Less than 100 I think --

HUGHES: I think I'd had called for a recount.

KATHY LAMB: Well, they did, I mean they filed --

ROBERT LAMB: That's what they're doing up in -- (multiple conversations; inaudible)

KATHY LAMB: -- they filed the board charges against 'em for, um, uh, giving -- buying 'em drinks, and giving 'em shirts, and all that kind of stuff.

ROBERT LAMB: But why can the union take you out, wine you and dine you, but a company can't buy you a 55 cent hot dog without getting board charges served by?

KATHY LAMB: Because it's not -- it's illegal the other way around, (laughter) it's not this way, that's the whole thing.

ROBERT LAMB: It's better for one, better for the other one.

KATHY LAMB: No, 'cause you don't have an NLRB on your side. That's the difference. Anytime something goes wrong, the union can run to the NLRB, the company can't run to anybody 'cause they're responsible for themselves. The NLRB's there to make sure the company goes by the guidelines, and the union goes by the guidelines, and nobody cheats. If you don't get turned in, (laughter) that's it.

GEORGE STONEY: Judy.

HELFAND: Jimmy, do you need to get any cutaways of those pictures?

JAMIE STONEY: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) --

HELFAND: The -- the glass ones?

JAMIE STONEY: Uh, I went in as he was holding them.

HELFAND: OK.

JAMIE STONEY: Right here in front of [you?], Rob.

ROBERT LAMB: (inaudible).

JAMIE STONEY: [The sun will be?] looking over your shoulder.

ROBERT LAMB: If I'm going to have to read, I'm going to have to get my glasses.

JAMIE STONEY: I want you in front of me, looking that way.

HELFAND: We -- yeah. We want your back towards us.

JAMIE STONEY: Actually, here. Let me -- let me come over here.

HELFAND: OK.

JAMIE STONEY: [I'm going to?] see if I can do it without burning a hole in the camera. Stay right there, Robert.

ROBERT LAMB: "Supervisors, overseers, assistant supervisor, security men," uh, "all of..." mm, can't make out that one word.

JAMIE STONEY: It's the Orr manufactoring I think.

ROBERT LAMB: Yeah.

JAMIE STONEY: You can see it clearly through here.

ROBERT LAMB: "Orr manufacturing. Orr mills, Anderson, South Carolina."

HELFAND: George, wait.

GEORGE STONEY: I'm not going to click this.

HELFAND: I can hear the whole thing though.

ROBERT LAMB: OK. This picture here, I don't remember any of these mill houses still being there, but this building in the center is still standing today, because I know exactly where it's located. And the only thing that's boarded up on it is the doors, the windows are not.

JAMIE STONEY: Now, who do you think that is?

ROBERT LAMB: The only thing I can guess, maybe it -- might would have been, uh, one of the head men of that Orr-Lyons plant. Orr --

HUGHES: [Goin' back?] long time ago.

ROBERT LAMB: Um, Orr mills.

JAMIE STONEY: I can't see -- what's he riding here?

ROBERT LAMB: A horse and buggy.

GEORGE STONEY: Who owned the mills (cough) in 1917?

ROBERT LAMB: I really don't know.

KATHY LAMB: Orr family, I believe.

ROBERT LAMB: Yeah, there was an Orr family there --

KATHY LAMB: Yeah.

ROBERT LAMB: -- let me see that one.

KATHY LAMB: I can see, it's across the glass. Look across the glass right there, it says, "Orr mills store," it's got "Orr" somethin' "mill 01:16:00store," maybe Orr-Lyons mill store, I don't know.

ROBERT LAMB: OK, across the glass. Where at?

KATHY LAMB: On the ri-- left hand side, right across the middle of the big glass --

ROBERT LAMB: OK I see the "Undersaul dollar watch" --

KATHY LAMB: Ingersaul. And go right above it in that big window, right across the [sun?] row.

ROBERT LAMB: OK. That's..."Orr-Lyons mill store. 2023." So that would be the address now of where that one building is in the front, which would 2023, uh, South Main Street, Anderson, South Carolina.

JAMIE STONEY: Now, would that be the company that made [Swigger?] overalls and so forth?

KATHY LAMB: I think it was a cotton mill, textile mill.

ROBERT LAMB: Yeah, I don't believe that was the one because I --

KATHY LAMB: I think they make sheeting.

ROBERT LAMB: -- from what I remembered on Orr-Lyons, from everything I had read, they made sheeting, towels, and wash cloths, and more sheeting -- they made more bed products, such as, uh, your pillow cases and your sheets, than anything else, at the Orr-Lyons plant. Where -- [Jacoba?] Manufacturing, they make a mixture of all of it, your sheeting, your tiles, uh, [Kata?] mills makes a 01:18:00mixture of all of it, but Orr-Lyons, they just stuck with the bed linens.

HELFAND: Could you hold that up again so George could get a picture?

ROBERT LAMB: Mm-hmm.

JAMIE STONEY: While you're doing that, I'm just going to cover this side.

GEORGE STONY: (inaudible) (clears throat) [I'm going to?] have to hold very steady [so that?] -- yeah. Uh, point it toward me a little bit more. Uh, that's -- that's it. Yeah. That's very good.

KATHY LAMB: I hope the cobwebs don't show up. (inaudible). (laughs)

GEORGE STONY: Yeah. Just don't -- [let me get?] -- sorry. Down just a little bit.

JAMIE STONEY: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).

GEORGE STONY: Move it down just a little bit.

KATHY LAMB: (laughs)

GEORGE STONY: That's fine. Good. Thank you.

JAMIE STONEY: Now, hold that up and just see what -- what [read?] -- what that was again.

ROBERT LAMB: "The undersaul dollar watch." Above that was the "Orr-Lyons mill store." The address was 2324 South Main Street, Anderson, South Carolina.

HELFAND: [Honey?], can you do the same one with the, uh, the mill manager?

ROBERT LAMB: You talking about the one with the superintendents?

HELFAND: Yeah.

ROBERT LAMB: OK, this is got, uh, "superintendent, overseers, assistant superintendents, security men, Orr-Lyon Mill, Anderson, South Carolina." And there's probably, I'd say, 25, 30, about 35 or maybe 40 people in this photograph. (break in video)

GEORGE STONEY: (clears throat) Do I advertise Coke or not?

JAMIE STONEY: You can do what you want.

KATHY LAMB: (inaudible).

HELFAND: Oh, actually, do you want to get that -- that little article again, that you were showing us, that had that -- that quote about the movies? (laughter)

GEORGE STONEY: [Crazy people?]. I mean --

JAMIE STONEY: Go.

GEORGE STONEY: OK.

JAMIE STONEY: Action.

HELFAND: Just walk in like that.

GEORGE STONEY: (inaudible).

M: (inaudible).

KATHY LAMB: It says, uh, "Honea Path funeral pictures be shown. Honea Path funeral taken by Paramount News in Honea Path Saturday will be shown today and tomorrow at the Strand theater, it was announced last night by manager Jimmy Cartlage of the Strand. Three newsreel trucks were on hand for the funeral, which was held in an open field on Harper Street."

GEORGE STONEY: And that's -- this is from the Anderson --

KATHY LAMB: Independent.

GEORGE STONEY: Of, uh -- in September, 1934.

KATHY LAMB: Right.

GEORGE STONEY: OK, now what we have are some footage taken at that by this same newsreel camera people, and we're gonna show you what we've got. It's 01:21:00just bits and pieces, but it'll give you some indication of what, uh, your folks -- your folks, uh, and the theater, if they went.

HELFAND: Well, I think they went to the funeral. (laughter)

GEORGE STONEY: Well, if they went to the theater.

(Showing video)

(break in video)

GEORGE STONEY: What you're going to see --

JAMIE STONEY: Hold on, let me get you exposed right.

GEORGE STONEY: What you're going to see is some footage from Honea Path, taken at the funeral. We're going to run it silent, you look at it, and then we're going to play the sound that -- that went with it, OK?

KATHY LAMB: OK.

GEOGRE STONEY: Maybe you'll recognize some of the people.

(watching video)

GEORGE STONEY: Was there a story in the Independent about the funeral?

KATHY LAMB: It just, um, said that they were -- where the funeral was, it was on Harper Street, that was ever mentioned.

GEORGE STONEY: I wonder if you could check back again because they probably had a re-- a report on the services.

KATHY LAMB: Well, I even looked through obituaries, they didn't even put an 01:23:00obituary, um, um, at all. And I thought that was kinda strange.

GEORGE STONEY: You see how --

KATHY LAMB: Yeah. My lord, look at all the people.

HUGHES: They all wasn't from Honea Path.

ROBERT LAMB: No wonder they told Shorty to stay at home.

GEORGE STONEY: No, the people came from all over the place --

KATHY LAMB: Oh, that's right.

GEORGE STONEY: -- in fact, we were talking to a fellow the other day, uh, from -- the union fellow, from the Gastonia area, and he said that he and four others drove down from there to the funeral, and then visited the homes.

HUGHES: I don't recognize anybody up there.

KATHY LAMB: In one of the articles in the paper, it said something about someone from the union, or the United Textile Workers, or something, was supposed to 01:24:00make a speech, they thought, but they weren't sure. I can't remember his name, it started with a B.

GEORGE STONEY: The Charlotte Reserve estimated there was between 5,000 and 10,000 people here.

HUGHES: Yeah, they were there.

HELFAND: Where were you that day?

HUGHES: They made me stay at home. I was a kid. A kid got trampled in there.

KATHY LAMB: I can't figure out where that is in Honea Path.

HUGHES: Harper Street?

KATHY LAMB: Yeah. Where there's an open field like that, is there a cemetery there now?

HUGHES: Yeah.

ROBERT LAMB: Well, if a person's buried in this state, they can't build over a burial ground.

KATHY LAMB: Right.

ROBERT LAMB: So it would still have to be there somewhere.

KATHY LAMB: But I didn't know there was a cemetery on Harper Street. I knew East --

ROBERT LAMB: Bet it's all unmarked graves.

KATHY LAMB: -- View Cemetery --

HUGHES: Yeah.

KATHY LAMB: -- where's that at?

HUGHES: East View's, uh --

KATHY LAMB: It's goin' out of town.

HUGHES: -- it's way over on the other side, the (inaudible).

KATHY LAMB: Harper Street's on the mill hill.

HUGHES: I know it. It's the street over, I think.

KATHY LAMB: Uh, yeah. Or next to the last.

GEORGE STONEY: Do you recognize any of those people?

HUGHES: Not one.

HELFAND: What do you think about that, Kathy?

KATHY LAMB: It's amazing to me, to see that many people there. And you have to wonder if they really wanted to be there, or if some people are just nosey. And just come to see what they can see out of --

HUGHES: That's what they did.

KATHY LAMB: -- curiosity. Out of curiosity.

HUGHES: [They came to see?] what they can see.

ROBERT LAMB: But are they burying one there, or are they burying all of 'em that were killed there, at the same time?

GEORGE STONEY: The six, or the seven.

HUGHES: One died later.

KATHY LAMB: Yep, that Rucker man died of pneumonia three days afterward, so he probably died that day or the next day.

HUGHES: That guy's over there, he's giving a speech.

KATHY LAMB: Daddy, you might see somebody there.

GEORGE STONEY: See, they lined up the hearses --

KATHY LAMB: See, there is a funeral tent -- there is a funeral tent there. I wonder if they buried them all side by side, or what?

GEORGE STONEY: No, we've gone up to the graveyard and we found the graves scattered, different -- different family plots --

KATHY LAMB: Mm-hmm.

GEORGE STONEY: -- but we found gravestones with the union, uh, insignia on 'em --

KATHY LAMB: Really?

GEORGE STONEY: -- on the gravestones, yes. We photographed them.

KATHY LAMB: Oh, I'm gonna go down there and look for that, I wanna see that.

HUGHES: Everybody wore hats then. The caps, I mean.

(pause)

GEORGE STONEY: One fellow was describing it, and he said they had to go to two other towns to get enough hearses.

HUGHES: Yeah.

KATHY LAMB: Mmm.

HUGHES: I don't think [there's?] but two hearses in Honea Path, here. But one.

ROBERT LAMB: But they had to go to two other towns, they probably came to Belton, or Cox Funeral Home was in business then, so what if they went to Cox?

KATHY LAMB: Probably, he's been in business since 1927.

GEORGE STONEY: You want to just rewind it then.

HELFAND: What were you saying about going to -- trying to go look for the records at the coroner?

ROBERT LAMB: OK, uh, the coroner, the assistant coroner of Anderson country is Greg Shore, he's a friend of mine, uh, I can go and talk to Greg and see if he could pull up some old records on their deaths, or I could go to William Mackey, 01:28:00I know him, he is the coroner. Or I could, uh, go through, uh, another friend of mine that's with Anderson police department.

HELFAND: What's interesting to me is that you want to do that.

ROBERT LAMB: Well, in my line of work, I'm nosey. (laughter) I like to investigate things.

KATHY LAMB: I think, too, I could go -- the library's got death records in there, because there were two ladies over there looking for their family tree.

HUGHES: You want to rewind it?

GEORGE STONEY: Mm-hmm.

HUGHES: Hit the button the left.

KATHY LAMB: I did.

HUGHES: Top.

KATHY LAMB: I did on that one.

GEORGE STONEY: Ok now we want it to play.

HELFAND: Why don't you bring the sound up Rob.

HUGHES: You want it to play?

GEORGE STONEY: Yup.

ROBERT LAMB: Do what?

[crosstalk inaubible]

KATHY LAMB: There it is, its playing.

HUGHES: Yeah.

KATHY LAMB: Put the sound up. Second button there you go.

ROBERT LAMB: You ask me why I'd want to do that?

[01:28:47] Playing film with sound. [01:30:20]

[Film sound]

[Film sound]

GEORGE STONEY: Now, all this was edited down to about a two minute story.

(Playing film with sound [01:30:27]-[01:31:51])

[Film sound]

KATHY LAMB: When it gets really good, they cut it out. When they really get into it.

(Playing film with sound [01:31:58]-[01:32:28])

[Film sound]

HUGHES: That's Grady.

KATHY LAMB: Grady Gilmer?

HUGHES: Yep. With the hat one.

KATHY LAMB: Right there in the --

HUGHES: The second -- second one.

ROBERT LAMB: That just turned around?

HUGHES: Yep. That's Grady.

HELFAND: Who was Grady?

KATHY LAMB: It was his cou-- uncle?

HUGHES: That's my uncle. Getting on the picket line.

KATHY LAMB: He's short (inaudible).

ROBERT LAMB: He's the short one in the dark suit.

KATHY LAMB: Mm-hmm. I've seen his picture before, (inaudible).

ROBERT LAMB: He's the one that's facing us outside of that other guy.

KATHY LAMB: Yeah, uh-huh.

HUGHES: That's Grady.

KATHY LAMB: Yep.

ROBERT LAMB: I don't know any of 'em.

HUGHES: (inaudible)

KATHY LAMB: That's odd just one house down in there.

GEORGE STONEY: OK, could you back it up? And, uh, I want to come forward and -- and put your f-- your finger [on it?].

HUGHES: You ready?

KATHY LAMB: Yeah.

HELFAND: Wait. Can't you -- can you get [him?]?

ROBERT LAMB: [Right now?].

JAMIE STONEY: Huh? If he comes over, I can get him.

HELFAND: Um, OK. He's attached to a radio.

GEORGE STONEY: Mm-hmm.

HELFAND: So that's going to be -- I'm going to have to --

GEORGE STONEY: [Betty?], maybe you could --

JAMIE STONEY: No, [if?] -- question. Uh, how -- how --?

(break in video) [01:34:00]

JAMIE STONEY: And -- OK.

HELFAND: [And the sound's?] (inaudible).

KATHY LAMB: You don't know who that preacher is?

HUGHES: Hm?

KATHY LAMB: You don't know who that preacher is?

HUGHES: Uh-uh.

KATHY LAMB: Louis McGahill wasn't preaching then, was he?

HUGHES: No.

GEORGE STONEY: They mentioned in the paper that there was a preacher from New York City, and one from Columbus -- uh, Columbia.

HUGHES: I don't know any of these people on that stand. There is a man in 01:35:00Honea Path today that would recognize everybody there, but he's unable to move.

HELFAND: How do you think a town would react if we showed this movie in Honea Path?

KATHY LAMB: Hmm.

HUGHES: This movie -- it'd probably make everybody mad.

ROBERT LAMB: Give me a weeks notice and I'm leaving the state. (laughter)

KATHY LAMB: I don't think it would make 'em mad.

ROBERT LAMB: It'd bring back a lot of memories.

KATHY LAMB: I think it would make a lot of them sad.

HUGHES: Yeah, it would.

KATHY LAMB: To know somebody had to die for all this.

HUGHES: It happened so long ago, 48 years ago.

GEORGE STONEY: Fifty-eight years ago.

ROBERT LAMB: Fifty-eight years.

HUGHES: Fifty-eight years ago, most them people dead. And their sons are dead. The four, uh --

KATHY LAMB: You tried to find some of 'em Saturday and they were already dead.

HUGHES: Already dead.

KATHY LAMB: He called 'em, see if he could find somebody.

GEORGE STONEY: Let's see if he can spot him now.

(pause)

HUGHES: I think I need to (inaudible).

ROBERT LAMB: Nope.

HUGHES: John Adam Lewis made the unions what they are today.

KATHY LAMB: There -- there he is.

HUGHES: There's Grady.

KATHY LAMB: Up there.

HUGHES: Right there.

KATHY LAMB: If you freeze-frame it, it's gonna have a --

ROBERT LAMB: [OK?]. (inaudible).

GEORGE STONEY: Could you go and point him out to us? Could you go over and --

HELFAND: He's going to rewind it first, (inaudible).

GEORGE STONEY: OK.

ROBERT LAMB: OK. Let me take it off [still?].

GEORGE STONEY: OK.

ROBERT LAMB: They --OK, I don't remember his name --

HUGHES: Grady Gilmer.

KATHY LAMB: Grady.

ROBERT LAMB: Grady Gilmer is this man right here. He's the one in the dark suit, right here.

GEORGE STONEY: And he testified?

KATHY LAMB: Mm-hmm.

ROBERT LAMB: Yes.

HELFAND: Tell us about Grady Gilmer, why was he there?

HUGHES: The strike. Nosey. I was a kid, wanna know what was goin' on.

HELFAND: No, no, Grady Gilmer.

HUGHES: Oh, he was a pi-- on the picket line. His (inaudible) right there, (inaudible).

KATHY LAMB: He was on the picket line.

HUGHES: He testified that one of them guys shot the other guy.

HELFAND: What did he say?

HUGHES: What'd he say, Kathy?

KATHY LAMB: Hmm.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, when we went to Honea Path, we talked to some people who said that those people who are in the strike came from another part of the village, uh, the lower part of the village where really not very nice people lived.

ROBERT LAMB: Bull.

HUGHES: Look at the names in there, somebody lied to you.

HELFAND: What -- what did you say?

HUGHES: I said, somebody lied to him. Them was the people working in the mill. What did Grady say in there? He shot who? Them people that were striking were honest to goodness everyday laborer, they just trying to get a raise. And the company didn't wanna deal with 'em, that's the reason they got killed. In 01:40:00cold-blooded murder. That's all you can say. They were inside of a two-foot brick wall shooting out, and those people out there didn't have no guns, and they was shooting, bang, bang, bang, and they were helpless. On both ends of the mill. And people...it was awful.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, could those people -- did those people continue to work in the mill afterwards?

HUGHES: They had no other place to work. They had to go back to work. So they went back to work.

GEORGE STONEY: And the company took them back?

HUGHES: Yes. Grady worked in there, oh, 50 years, I guess. And the rest of 'em did, till they retired. Some of them didn't (inaudible) retired. 01:41:00Social security.

GEORGE STONEY: Well when you worked -- you started working in the mills a few years after that --

HUGHES: Yes.

GEORGE STONEY: -- about five years after that, I believe.

HUGHES: About five years after that.

GEORGE STONEY: Was there anything said about a union when you went in?

HUGHES: Not a word.

GEORGE STONEY: And for then on, was there?

HUGHES: Not a word was said about the union. See, the company put it out, it's the union that shot the people, which wasn't true at all, 'cause when one of 'em said he got religion, he admitted shooting the Cannon there. And the cannonball was gonna kill them, but they decided against it. And a few months later, a man, he shot him for {Campbell?], for going out with his wife. On the Anderson county hospital parking lot. Every one of 'em's dead now 01:42:00that was in that strike, they was killing people. Rob Calvert, E.G.K., Charlie Smith, George Page, all dead.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, there was one fella who, uh, denied things, didn't get punished, and then later on, he kind of asked for forgiveness.

HUGHES: Campbell. He's [violent?], he admitted shooting, and that thing right there, it says that he shot Cannon, he admitted it. (inaudible) Murder one, and (inaudible) got him for murder one. Honea Path police...they didn't do a thing. Had an inquest, but what they do after the inquest? I'm gonna find 01:43:00out. It might have been 58 years ago, but to satisfy my curiosity, I'm gonna find out who got what, 'cause I know the policemen didn't get nothing, 'cause they didn't leave their job. I know Rob Calvert didn't get nothing, 'cause he didn't leave his job. 'Cause he was made superintendent later, when Lollis retired. I don't know, they been some bad doing in the world, and the companies and the big companies is doing it. They will gyp you every way they can.

HELFAND: Now, what did your cousin say? Ask -- ask Kathy what -- what he said.

HUGHES: You mean, uh --

KATHY LAMB: Grady.

HUGHES: Grady --

KATHY LAMB: It says, "Grady Gilmer told the jury he was a picket on September 01:44:006th, and then he saw Robert Calvert shoot Lee Crawford."

HUGHES: Rob Calvert, superintendent.

KATHY LAMB: Later on.

HUGHES: Right. So he got rewarded for shooting a guy.

KATHY LAMB: It stands to reason nothing happened to him because nobody ever left, nobody -- I mean, everybody continued their life right on except for the ones that, you know, that were affected by it. The families and all that, um, if they had served time, they wouldn't be back on the police department. They wouldn't be superintendents of mills. I mean, evidently, nothin' happened to them. I'm gonna go back to the library and look and find it.

HUGHES: Ain't nothin' happen to it, I know that.

ROBERT LAMB: Let's say you -- we go to the library and we do the research, OK, let's say we also find out that nothing was ever done to any of these people that committed the murders, and we know who they are. What happens when 01:45:00there's no statute of limitations for murder in this state?

KATHY LAMB: They're all dead. There's nothin' you can do, they're all dead.

GEORGE STONEY: But I think there is something you can do.

ROBERT LAMB: It would prove to the families of the deceased, if nothin' else. It wouldn't clear their name like they've got it right now, like they're scot-free, even though they're dead.

KATHY LAMB: The deal -- what I can't understand is why those people said they were not very nice person, from the wrong side of town?

HUGHES: That's what I'd like to know, too.

KATHY LAMB: Evidently, these people were the ones that had the money and didn't need it. I wish I knew who they were.

ROBERT LAMB: Research it.

KATHY LAMB: 'Cause I'm tellin' you...(laughter)

HUGHES: Who told you that (inaudible)? I'd like to know when.

KATHY LAMB: He knows everybody down there.

HUGHES: I'll go down there and cuss him out. (laughter)

JAMIE STONEY: And you said, when you were watchin' when we ran it before, you said "adios" to somebody.

HUGHES: To the dead people.

HELFAND: What'd you say?

HUGHES: Adios amigos.

HELFAND: Why?

HUGHES: That means goodbye. Who was that guy?

GEORGE STONEY: I'm not gonna tell you because I'm afraid you'd get violent.

KATHY LAMB: Nah, he ain't got no strength to get violent.

HUGHES: I'd cuss him out, though. (laughter) I'd give him a cussing that he'll never get.

HELFAND: Why does he deserve a cussing?

HUGHES: For telling him a lie.

KATHY LAMB: In other words, it's somebody that thought the people that lived on the mill hill were trash, that's exactly -- that's what's wrong with this place around here, anybody that's not on the right sides of the track, doesn't live in a brick home, and drive a new car every three years is trash in this town. They're trash in Honea Path, and if you don't live your life to suit the people in this time -- just like, I'm a union member, I had a 01:47:00woman tell me, "Well, if you're gonna move and you get another job, God, don't tell them you've been in the union, you'll never get a job," and I told her I wasn't ashamed to be in any union, I don't agree with everything they do but I don't agree with everything he does, but he's my Daddy and I love him.

ROBERT LAMB: But how many people in Honea Path has took the time, and we've not put that much time into research --

KATHY LAMB: They're ignorant, they're ignorant.

ROBERT LAMB: -- to go and research to find out the true facts of what had happened.

KATHY LAMB: They don't wanna know! That's the point, they don't want to know, they don't want to know...

ROBERT LAMB: They need to know.

KATHY LAMB: They don't want to know.

HUGHES: It used to be, back in '34, in the '30s, and the early '40s, people lived uptown didn't have nothin' to do with people on the mill hill. Now, I used to work in a grocery store when I was 10 years old, delivering groceries on a bicycle. The people uptown would order a loaf of bread, and I had to get on the bicycle, go all the way to their house, but the people on the mill hill didn't have no telephone, so they'd have to come get a loaf of 01:48:00bread. I bet you there wasn't two telephones on the mill hill.

KATHY LAMB: But that's always been the conception in the South, anybody that's not raised on the right side of the track is trash, no matter -- if you've got a PhD from MIT and you were raised on the wrong sides of the track, you're still trash when you come back home.

ROBERT LAMB: That's like Belton. If you're not a [Tollison?], if you're not a, uh --

KATHY LAMB: A Maynard.

ROBERT LAMB: -- a Maynard.

KATHY LAMB: Or Rice.

ROBERT LAMB: Or Rice --

KATHY LAMB: You ain't nothing.

ROBERT LAMB: You ain't nothing.

KATHY LAMB: They built tennis courts up here that cost a quarter of a million dollars, and they can't even keep businesses goin' in town, they put that stupid looking fountain up there in the middle of the town, they guess it's gonna bring business to town. I mean, they're stupid! I mean, they need to get civic things going here, these people had a pot-belly pig in town, they made 'em move the pig out of town, the poor old pig was standing up bothering a soul, but they let somebody have a junkyard in their front yard! With rats running everywhere, that's fine, but this poor little pig was standing, got to move Porkchop out town!

ROBERT LAMB: And at the same time, they're raising your water bill, doubling it.

KATHY LAMB: They double my water bill to pay for Blair Mills' sewage, and I don't like it. I have to pay -- my water bill was $16 a month -- Blair Mill couldn't get a sewer (inaudible) in Anderson, they couldn't get one in Belton, well "we're gonna build them a new sewer line and you're gonna pay for it," so now my water bill's $32 a month.

ROBERT LAMB: They're gonna run that sewage line, it's a 36-inch line from Belton to the Saluda River out of 247, which is four and a half miles. And the taxpayers, and the people of the city of Belton is paying it on account of their water bills is doubled.

KATHY LAMB: That's right.

HELFAND: This is a mill?

KATHY LAMB: Uh-huh. Blair --

ROBERT LAMB: Blair Mill.

KATHY LAMB: -- Mill, they were in on this deal!

ROBERT LAMB: Blair Mill bought the Orr-Lyons plant in Anderson, because Anderson told them, "OK, we can handle your dye shop waste, your waste water" --

KATHY LAMB: See, it's toxic waste --

ROBERT LAMB: -- when they got to Anderson --

KATHY LAMB: -- more or less.

ROBERT LAMB: -- they said, "We can't handle it, we won't handle it, you have to build a $3 million sewer system." They could stay here and spend $1 01:50:00million, and get the city of Belton to build a 36-inch line for four and a half miles, and by Belton doing it and helping Blair mill, it also helps the city of Belton, but it doubles our water bill.

KATHY LAMB: But yet, they're the ones that's got all the money in town. They're still the ones that's got the money in town, but we're having to pay so that they can keep their business open. And it's -- I mean, we're still getting screwed over around here. The people in the South are still paying for the big business, we're losing money every time one comes in here. This like -- OK, they opened up WCI in Anderson, they paved their parking lot, they ran the sewer for 'em, they gave 'em tax exemption for I don't know how many years --

ROBERT LAMB: Ten years.

KATHY LAMB: -- ten-year tax exemption, they don't -- (inaudible) -- they came down here and brought the northerners down here, and put 'em to work, and ours are only temporary! I mean, that's the kind of stuff these stupid people do, they don't say, "You've got to put our people to work, you've got to put 01:51:00native South Carolinians to work, you can't bring 'em in from out of state," that's what Mack Truck did in Winnsboro. They came down here and thought they was gonna bring the people from up north down here, it didn't work. The union went and said, "No, you leave them up there in their plant, and you hire from here for this plant."

HUGHES: BMW's gonna try the same thing.

KATHY LAMB: That's right. We're gonna get sold up the river because of Carol Campbell. He wants to look good, "Oh, you're gonna have a job five years from now," it's gonna take them five years before the first car comes off the line, we have to starve to death till then! I mean, we could be sitting on the sidewalk.

ROBERT LAMB: How many Germans are they gonna bring over in order to --

KATHY LAMB: Well, you know they're gonna have to bring them over here to train people as to how they want things done, I mean, that stands to reason. And just like the man that bought my plant, he's bringing 'em in from down here telling us how he wants things down, but the whole thing -- the concept -- everywhere I've lived, as far west as New Mexico all the way to the bottom of 01:52:00Florida and all the ways north as Maryland, and when you say -- or you say, "y'all," one time, you're stupid. You say "grits," you're stupid. You say, uh, "fried green tomatoes," you're stupid. I'm not stupid. I'm not trash, I'm as good as anybody else. I'm not better than anybody, but I'm as good as anybody. And I don't know who that was in Honea Path, but we all go one place or the other, and they'll have to answer for what they said. I don't call anybody trash, because I don't think it's right. I don't think -- I don't think anybody has a right to judge -- there's only one person that judges, and that's the only one that matters. And they can like it, lump it, stuff it, whatever they want to, but that's the way I feel.

HUGHES: I wish I knew who he was. (laughter) I'm 'bout to just go down (inaudible) and I'm just gonna jump someone. (laughter)

KATHY LAMB: You gonna go down there to knock everybody till you find the right one, huh?

HUGHES: I might do that. (laughter) If you get me mad enough, and he's 'bout got me that mad! (laughter) "Everybody down there was a bunch of trash..."

KATHY LAMB: OK Daddy, think of the ones in Honea Path got the most money and you'll find him, or her, or whoever, if it's your cousin, Earl --

HUGHES: He won't.

KATHY LAMB: -- 'cause he was raised on a mill hill.

HUGHES: Yeah, but he was hiding in a trashcan when the strike went on.

KATHY LAMB: Yeah.

HUGHES: Earl was.

KATHY LAMB: He hid in the trashcan.

ROBERT LAMB: Who hid in the closet?

KATHY LAMB: Dewey, he run home and hid in the closet, Dewey Gilmer.

HUGHES: He said, "Mama, they're comin' after me."

ROBERT LAMB: One was in the trashcan --

KATHY LAMB: Well, one of 'em was on the potty, Daddy, tell the truth about -- he was on the potty and the (laughter) -- and the -- the bullets went by, and he said, "Mama, I'm done, come get me, come get me." (laughter)

HUGHES: That was Bubby [Page?].

KATHY LAMB: That Bubby? OK, Bubby Page did that. (laughter)

HELFAND: Do you -- (laughter)

JAMIE STONEY: I couldn't write it this good.

GEORGE STONEY: Well, I'll tell you why I'm not gonna tell you, because the 01:54:00poor old man is 87.

HUGHES: Well, I won't hit him, but I'll give him a good cussing. (laughter) I (inaudible).

ROBERT LAMB: Well, Shorty, you've got to remember too --

HUGHES: Eighty-six years old...

KATHY LAMB: Eighty-seven.

ROBERT LAMB: -- his mind could come and go, and it coulda been on his worst days.

KATHY LAMB: That means he was born in 1905, which would've made him 29 years old when that happened. He wasn't -- he might have been in there shooting too, you never do know. (laughter)

ROBERT LAMB: It's like you tell me and Kathy, "I can't tell you what happened yesterday, but 30, 40 years ago, or" --

KATHY LAMB: That's the reason I went to the library --

ROBERT LAMB: -- "or 58 years ago, (inaudible)"

KATHY LAMB: -- because his memory is not what it used to be. I can tell him two da-- like two days ago, something, and he'll ask me today, did I tell him that, or he'll say I didn't tell him, but when I -- I said, "I'm goin' to the library, I'ma make sure what he says is right," and when I got to reading, it was just like he had written it hisself, and I knew, because it exploded my mind, I couldn't believe it.

HELFAND: If this was so vivid in your mind, and you know this so well, how come you never talked about it?

(break in video)

JAMIE STONEY: Could you say that again for her?

HUGHES: There's no need, there's nobody can do anything. Until I get a hold of that guy in Honea Path. (laughter)

ROBERT LAMB: That's the thing about it. Anybody that mentions it now, they don't wanna talk about it or it makes them furious. Why cuss somebody out or do something to somebody that happened 58 years ago?

KATHY LAMB: 'Cause they made him mad.

HUGHES: Because they made me mad. (laughter)

GEORGE STONEY: Was it -- it does begin to shape people's ideas, you say that myth has been repeated over and over again, that Southerners won't organize.

KATHY LAMB: Mm-hmm.

GEORGE STONEY: Well, we know that in 1932, '33, '34, hundreds of thousands of Southerners did organize, do you know there were over 100 locals in North 01:56:00Carolina and over 50 locals in South Carolina of the textile workers in those two years?

KATHY LAMB: Mm-hmm.

GEORGE STONEY: Well, most people don't -- can hardly believe that now.

KATHY LAMB: Right, mm-hmm.

GEORGE STONEY: And it's -- so it's important that people know that, I think.

HUGHES: I belonged to the biggest unions in the world, I worked in the biggest companies in the world. If that was out in today, you'd have so many union members, they'd tear the place up. They would actually tear the place up. I've worked for Chrysler, at a missile plant, I worked for Martin, before it was Martin [Murhead?], it was plain Martin Company, built aircraft and the missiles, went to the (inaudible), worked for Douglas and (inaudible), building missiles, I was a supervisor there. They had unions there, they went on strike up there. Stayed on strike three days. Come off.

GEORGE STONEY: Well now, back in '34, the employers were using the military, they were using armed guards and so forth, these --

KATHY LAMB: They was feared.

GEORGE STONEY: -- these days, they're using much more sophisticated methods.

KATHY LAMB: Right. It's intimidation, now. You know, I mean, it's, um, when they tried to organize this one down here, Hartmarx came in and gave us a raise, they gave us more benefits, they gave us, uh, a reduced amount we paid on our insurance, and then the vice president of the company had the nerve to stand there and say, "Oh, I didn't know you were organizing a union here," bull. He did so, because the union writes a letter of intent to organize, they knew he was -- that they were there, and he says, "Oh, I didn't know it till I got here." I wonder how stupid he thinks I am, but I'm not that stupid. And he, um, they just thought they could come in and buy us, and it didn't work. It did not work, and it's not gonna work. This guy that's buying the 01:58:00place, he thinks he's gonna buy us. It's not gonna work.

HUGHES: He'll take his little cart and go back north (inaudible) --

KATHY LAMB: That's right, because there's one thing about it. People in the South have pride, and when you attack somebody's pride here, you might as well go up and slap their mama, because they're gonna get you. And he's -- he tries to play to us like we're stupid, like we're gonna believe everything that comes out of his mouth. I don't -- at first, I did. I was getting sucked in a little bit, and then I sat here one night and I told my husband, I said, "There ain't nobody that nice. Especially somebody I'm gonna work for."

HUGHES: Not in business.

KATHY LAMB: And, uh, there's no way that I'm gonna let him tell me that he's gonna do better than the union can do for me, because you don't go to the bank and borrow money to buy a car, and just say, let the guy say, "Oh, you make $150 a month payments," and don't sign any papers. And then the 01:59:00next month he says, "Oh, I believe I'm gonna charge you $300 this month." When it comes to money, I want somebody's name signed on there, I want mine signed on there, and the one that's gonna pay me, or I'm gonna pay them. I want somethin' in black and white. And that way, if he goes back on his word, file charges with NLRB and they'll make him see the light, because without that, all you gonna do is stand there and argue with him, and he's gonna be right every time. You got nothing to bargain with, and people have to understand that without that in writing, you might as well not have a job, because he can walk in one day and say, "I don't like your looks, hit the door. I don't like what you've got on today, hit the door." You can't do that with a union contract, and they're gonna have -- they're gonna have to learn that.

HELFAND: Ok we're done.

GEORGE STONEY: Ok.

JAMIE STONEY: Ok