Laurie Rushmeyer, L. Boyd Deal and Others Interviews

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JUDITH HELFAND: All right. Thats a great one. Oh, do it again. Did you get it?

LAURIE RUSHMEYER: Baby does video.

HELFAND: All right.


JAMIE STONEY: Now, whats a union going to say about this? Wheres your (inaudible)?




HELFAND: I have a question, George.


HELFAND: Its a little off the beaten path.


HELFAND: Is that OK?

JAMIE STONEY: Just do it (inaudible). Were rolling.


JAMIE STONEY: Let me just get a focus on her.

HELFAND: OK. Patricia, youre gonna listen to what your mommys saying. You cant be loud now, OK? OK? Its important what shes saying.

RUSHMEYER: Dont jingle your money.

HELFAND: Dont jingle your pennies. OK.

RUSHMEYER: I get to keep it.

HELFAND: OK. Could you talk about the places you organized, and you know the night I met you.


HELFAND: OK. Can you talk a little bit about that?


RUSHMEYER: Yeah, um, its like -- organizing is like an up. Its a high because you get to see people, you know, in -- not on the job. You get to see people in their homes, you know, out on the street. You get the fee- you get the feedback, and when you get that excellent feedback that youve been hunting for so long, it just pushes you up there, and you -- and you have nowhere to go but up, you know, and emotions run high. Uh, some people see you, and they, like, shy away from you because they dont know how to take you. But when people accept you and they want to listen to what youre doing, it gives you the f- that -- thats what keeps you going and keeps you going, till its all through.

HELFAND: Now, be specific. I wanna hear you say something like, Sometimes we had to organize here. Sometimes we had to organize here.


HELFAND: Can you talk about --


HELFAND: -- is that OK to talk about that truck?

RUSHMEYER: Yeah, OK. Oh, yeah. One...

HELFAND: The truck.

RUSHMEYER: Yeah, one night, we, uh, had -- we decided -- we had people who couldnt come to shift meetings, so we decided wed go to them. So, myself 00:02:00and Mary; uh, we loaded a van that was headed for Statesville, and there were people on there, and theyre like, I dont know anything about a union. Can you please tell me? you now, We just wanna know. Uh, we got -- the trip was from -- or 45 minutes long, but it did- it wasnt long enough because they didnt have enough time to get all their questions answered, and, you know, we were like -- I was like running over with the information, and Mary was like, Well, you can do it on your own then. I dont have to with you anymore. And, uh, it was -- it feels good just to enlighten people when they come at you.

HELFAND: OK, but I -- what I want you to say is -- just talk about the night time.


HELFAND: It felt kind of surreptitious to me --


HELFAND: -- and it felt -- was it secret, sort of?

RUSHMEYER: Well, it, it felt like you were behind enemy lines, you know. You were doing something the company didnt want you to do anyway, and, uh, you know, it wasnt against the law. It was, you know -- it was just our way of getting to the people, and if the company knew we had gotten on that van, I think theyd have had a heart attack. They couldnt have stopped us, but, 00:03:00uh, they wouldve truly been upset, because they didnt want these people to know what was going on. And I felt as if, you know, you know how a spy feels behind the lines? Does anybody know Im on here? Should I let anyone know Im on here, you know? And if I do let anyone know, you know, whatll happen? It, it was just a thrill.

HELFAND: OK. Its just -- its always been a -- this very powerful --


HELFAND: -- image with -- its at night --


HELFAND: -- and its just these -- you know, the headlights.


HELFAND: And I knew you were on that truck because I was right behind you, and I couldnt imagine what kind of question -- if they were frightened or what kind of questions they were asking you --


HELFAND: -- and what the general, uh -- what that level of, of fear mightve been about.


HELFAND: So, could you just sort of talk --


HELFAND: -- a little bit about the night time -- the, the fact that it was at night? And, um, is -- was that -- is -- did that represent how difficult it was to try to explain this to folks --


HELFAND: -- if they were afraid?


RUSHMEYER: OK. In the industry after 11:00 p.m., its dark out, and you wonder, you know, Hey, they already know youre gonna be on it. The driver of the van knew because we asked her permission, uh, but when we got on, we didnt know what we would get.

GEORGE STONEY: Im sorry, could you start again and explain what the van is?


HELFAND: You know, that these women live really far away --



HELFAND: -- from the mill, right?

GEORGE STONEY: And, uh, this is a company-sponsored -- um, they come -- they -- the van, isnt it?

RUSHMEYER: No, this is a personal vehicle.

GEORGE STONEY: OK, then that --


GEORGE STONEY: -- oh, that -- we should know that because I was getting the impression this was a company vehicle. Do you see?





HELFAND: OK, but -- and if you could frame it for us --


HELFAND: -- in terms of like its difficult to do organ- you know what I mean --


HELFAND: -- in terms of the challenge of --


HELFAND: -- of organizing and...

RUSHMEYER: OK. OK. Um, its 11:00 p.m., the end of the shift, and were trying to reach people who havent been able to come to shift meetings. They ride a van thats owned by this lady that I work with. She provides transportation for people who live far out of town away from the mill, but 00:05:00theyre -- they work there. Uh, the people on this van are just like me. The only thing is they just ride it together, and, uh, when we got on, we didnt know -- I didnt know whether they were like -- you know, they were all black, and the organizer that was with me, shes an excellent lady, but, you know, I didnt know if they would accept her being on the van with me. So, she started asking the questions, and they, like, wouldnt say much except for, you know, little things that they had heard. And then they asked -- questioned, What would we get out of this union? and I told them, Its just what we want, if we are willing to work for it. Uh, to organize on a van in the middle of the night going many miles away and just to know you have one ride back, you know, its sort of strange. Even though I was born around these parts, its still strange, you know. You see the image of night riders or, 00:06:00you know -- and you dont know whether your ride home is gonna find you, or if somebody is gonna stop them or what. And just to get -- just to get to your destination and get that information across to the people who, you know, youre trying to reach; that was the only thing that kept your mind, you know -- kept my mind away from whatever imminent danger there couldve been. Uh, cloak of night riding is sort of, well, en- energizing.

GEORGE STONEY: Has there been, uh -- has there been any or much phy- uh, physical threat in, in all your organizing?

RUSHMEYER: Um, as far as physical threats, Ive had none. Ive had people who walk up to me and tell me, I dont like union people, you know, but I say, Im not a union person. Im just a person who wants to fight for my rights. Um, and then when they realize, you know, Hey, thats what the word union means, you know, to fight for what you need and to stand up 00:07:00together, then the dislike sort of dissolves. But in the light of company when, when youre around company property and comp- when youre on your job, people dont really show outward because theyre afraid that, hey, theyll be labeled as a union person.

EORGE STONEY: Now, way back yonder, for example, in the Loray mill, they fought unions very hard, and, for example, they had a, a group called The 100 Mean Men literally --

RUSHMEYER: (inaudible).

GEORGE STONEY: -- who were their enforcers, and their spies, and so forth. Is there anything like that now?

RUSHMEYER: Uh, we had a, a note committee formed. It was supposed to have been run by un- by company workers against the union workers, uh, but we know throughout that it was generated in that campaign to say, No, and all the shirts -- t-shirts cost money. I dont care where you buy em. All the shirts that were distributed, practically every employee, even management wore 00:08:00one, had at least one and were asked to wear them every day. Uh, thats -- as far as we could say committee-like, uh, no, but you know who you can talk to and who you cant, people who are like -- you know that theyre on their way up; maybe a worker who might wanna be a supervisor. Uh, that worker could be just the same as I, but her goals may shoot higher. Uh, if she wants to work for the company, she has to stand up for the company. Thats the kind of person that you have to be weary of, and you, you know, after a while being around it, you know who you can trust and who you cant. And even though theyre management level, you know what you can tell them and what you cant because you know that theyre for the company, and theyre gonna be for the company to keep their job.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, so theres not the physical threat that there was back in the 30s, but theres a- another kind of much more --


GEORGE STONEY: -- sophisticated kind of opposition. Maybe you could describe that.



GEORGE STONEY: And just say that, We dont have physical threat so much, but...

RUSHMEYER: OK. OK. Uh, we dont have physical threat as far as bodily injury or anything, but, uh, we did have one incident in the parking lot. We had some cars that were vandalized. Uh, the company put up a poster stating that they would give a $500 reward for information leading to who may have vandalized the cars. Uh, it was on a day that, uh, we had other union workers from other Fieldcrest plants come down, and they came to show their solidarity with us. Uh, before -- we knew that they got on those buses at 3:15, and we knew that they were out of town by 3:30, but the vandalism was reported the next day and said that it took place at night. So, uh, you know, it left that question in everyones minds, Hey, did tho- did they bring those union workers in to vandalize the cars? but, uh, if you put it together, you know, and you have 00:10:00one grain of intelligence, you know, it may have been a setup, you know, cause no one has ever come forward with information. Security has never picked up on any clues as to who may have done it, and the posters far and few between now, but you may see one or two. Uh, the threat now is of your livelihood, of your job. With this economy, as tight as it is, no one wants to lose their job cause no one -- if -- you know, once you lose it, you dont know where youre gonna end up, whether youre gonna end up at McDonalds flipping burgers for three and a quarter, or whether youre gonna end up maybe at NGK. You might strike it easy, you know, and get a good job like that, but the odds between it, you know, are far and few between. And that threat of losing again, losing what you have; thats the most powerful hold that the company has on us, you know, of those who are afraid.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, in back -- way back yonder when people lost their jobs, they went to another mill.


GEORGE STONEY: They couldnt get a job at another mill, unless they had a recommendation from the mill they came from --



GEORGE STONEY: -- and they couldnt get a recommendation, and so they kept using the word blackballed. I got fired, and I got blackballed, and we have traced them all over the south. Is there anything like that happening now?

RUSHMEYER: Oh, we had two workers that come to mind that, uh, were fired. One was fired the night of the election. The other was fired the night he came in. He was on leave. He came in to vote, and they fired him. Um, they looked for jobs everywhere, you know, but there are none. Its like the market has dried up, as far as theyre concerned. Uh, the mills around here; they hang very close. You know, Fieldcrest will not give a recommendation to be hired by anyone no matter what your situation was for leaving em, but in their situation, I feel that a -- one was a working boss man. I mean, he had the highest credentials. He had never gotten written up in 25 years of being in the 00:12:00plant, but he cant get a job anywhere else, you know. So, its still around. Blackballing still happens, you know, they just dont call it those terms anymore, and people dont look that close at it, you know. They just say, Well, he lost his job. Too bad, you know.

GEORGE STONEY: Uh, now, again, the kind of thing you described as being among the workers was very different when everybody -- or almost everybody lived in the mill village.


GEORGE STONEY: Uh, did you ever experience mill village life?

RUSHMEYER: Um, no. I never lived in a mill village. Um, I was like -- I think I had a, a prejudice mentality against it because I knew Kannapolis was a mill town. I was raised outside of Kannapolis, and the cities here -- the schools are run by the Cannon company, the Cannon family. Every time you read, there was endowment given to the high school, or given to the middle school, or whatever. They -- they got a shopping center. They got a new bank in, you know. The Cannon company worked to get it in here, and, uh, when you work for 00:13:00the Cannon family, you knew you would be taken care of. They would take care of you and your children, but when the family sold the business, it was no longer, Well take care of you. It was that the people who ran the business wanted to have everything, and they have everything. They own the Cannon Village shopping centers. They own the parking lots. They still own some of the mill houses, even though they want to get rid of em for the land. They dont consider what theyre taking from the community. They just consider what they can, you know -- what they can just draw off of it.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, when -- you grew up here?


GEORGE STONEY: And when you -- when you were growing up, you didnt know that eventually you were gonna have a, a right to have a job in that mill, did you?

RUSHMEYER: No, I never knew that cause it was like...

GEORGE STONEY: Just say that again.

RUSHMEYER: OK. I didnt know that I had -- when I was growing up, I, I 00:14:00thought of mills as, you know, an excellent place to work, you know, good money, excellent job, good benefits. I didnt know that Id be working in the mill, you know, and then go in and really see the light of day. To see a mill now, you, you walk in the gate, you do what they tell you to do or you get out. Thats the only right you have in a mill. Um, as far as being taken care of, uh, your personal time, they dont bother you much because, you know, youre off your job, but its like it takes your personal time to get over the stress of your working time. So, theyre still infringing on your personal time, and theyre not giving anything to you. The benefits have all but dried up, you know. You pay $92 a, a month for family coverage. They say, We cant pay it because the doctor charged you too much, you know. I cant go in and say, Doc., charge me this because my insurance wont pay anything over it cause he has his prices, and the insurance company, which is owned by the 00:15:00company, has their prices. So, we just get caught in the middle. Its a squeeze, you know, completely.

HELFAND: What -- how much -- what -- whats, whats your hourly wage? I mean, I dont think we have a real concept of what you make and what you have to do with -- how you have to stretch that.

RUSHMEYER: OK. Uh, hurly wages run from $6.98 as a production worker in my area, washcloth. Uh, $7.07 for an hourly worker; a PDR, a sweeper, you know, a maintenance person is what they call em now. Um, you work seven -- $7.07 for eight hours a night. Fifty-six dollars and fifty-six cents does not cover your medical, your house, your car, your kids, your food, your clothes. It just doesnt take care of the necessities, you know. So, if you work a production job, you know, you work the hour job, theyre gonna have you working every minute of that eight-hour day because they -- if youre sick, theyre gonna find something for you to do. So, why not work incentive. My incentive rate is 00:16:00$6.98 an hour. As much as I can produce, I can take it home with me, you know, or I can have it on my paycheck, and when you work incentive, you work, cause you know youre taking it with you. If I can do 10 hours a night in a -- in a eight-hour night, Im gonna do it if it -- if thats what it takes for me to survive, you know.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, way back yonder, the, the mills did a lot of for the people, so long as they behaved themselves.


GEORGE STONEY: I mean, Im putting it pretty blunt, but thats pretty much what it meant.


GEORGE STONEY: But they also got in- involved in supporting the churches, and then the churches had to have preachers who took certain attitudes and so forth. Is there anything like that going on now?

RUSHMEYER: Oh, we had that come alive. It ca-

GEORGE STONEY: That; what do you mean?

RUSHMEYER: The, uh -- the company helping out the community, helping out the church, helping out, uh, other groups in, in the community. Uh, we had that 00:17:00come alive in our campaign. We had a church -- we had -- we had this racial issue that was brought to light by company. It wa- the organizers never said, Well, cause youre black, were gonna pick you to organize cause youre white. It was, Oh, come in if you want. If you dont want, then you dont have to, but the company got on the bandwagon and they said, Well, OK. Well do this. Well take the black community, and well pit them against the white community. They went into the community churches. Uh, there was one church in particular. They told the pastor if he would just write a letter and form a committee called The Concerned Citizens of Cabarrus County, that they would back him up, you know, they would help him out; whatever his needs where inside that church. Uh, he went along with em, and he wrote his letters, and he made his speeches, and he told this congregation how he felt about this union thing. And, you know, he rea- he really hurt himself cause he split his own congregation in half. OK. You -- he had 00:18:00workers. He had workers, more workers in the mill in his congregation than most churches do, um, and then when the campaign was over for all the other churches that stuck together to help, you know, just the workers, to have that right. They supported us to have that right to unionize or to run this campaign, and he himself was left out in the cold because the, the ministers withdrew from him. His congregation was split, and the only thing he got out of it was a van for his church. So, you know, it wasnt really -- it really wasnt worth the struggle because he doesnt live in the Kannapolis community. So, he didnt know really what he was doing to the people. He was just doing what he felt he needed to do.

HELFAND: Whats the legacy of Papa Cannon -- Charley Cannon?

RUSHMEYER: Oh, its a very...

GEORGE STONEY: Hold on, just a moment.

HELFAND: Can you say...? Oh.

GEORGE STONEY: Judy, could you move back a little bit --


GEORGE STONEY: -- because I want to get more for hand movements and --


GEORGE STONEY: -- and stuff within the...

JAMIE STONEY: (inaudible). Im just trying to...


HELFAND: Would it be -- should we let --

GEORGE STONEY: Thats fine.

HELFAND: -- Tish sort of run in and be a, a bit -- a regular kid?


HELFAND: Would that be helpful?


HELFAND: OK. Tish, if you wanna like, you know, talk to mommy while mommy is talking a little bit, thats just fine.

JAMIE STONEY: Tish is having too much fun back here.


RUSHMEYER: Shes finding everything to mess with.


HELFAND: Well, call her --


HELFAND: -- to you.


GEORGE STONEY: -- just let her -- let her out.


RUSHMEYER: Come here, little momma. Which way you goin?

GEORGE STONEY: Going under the table.

RUSHMEYER: Thats the funnest.


RUSHMEYER: Oh, you want her to be right here by me?


RUSHMEYER: OK, thats fine.


RUSHMEYER: OK. The Cannon legacy was, uh, very great on the Kannapolis community. Um, they helped with not only the churches, and they not only build the Y, uh, they still now give endowments to areas they feel that need it. Uh, they still care for the community, even though the mill does not belong to the 00:20:00family anymore. We know that theyre gonna be there as long as they have the means, you know. We know that the Cannon family will stand behind whatever they feel, you know, that the Cannon -- that this community needs. As far as, uh, the other legacies that were left, its like a rape, you know, with Murdock, who was the owner after the Cannon family. He just came in and, uh, he sold mills. He took jobs. He stole the pension, which hurt most people here, you know, and he didnt have to stand behind and see what he -- the ruins that he left because hes a, uh, absentee landlord for buildings, for parking lots, you know, for other businesses, and thats all he is.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, its interesting to me to compare a community where for whatever reason, there was a strong feeling of paternalism, and, and you see 00:21:00that here.


GEORGE STONEY: You see good houses. You see, uh, strong --

RUSHMEYER: Come here, momma.

GEORGE STONEY: -- some schools. You see all this kind of thing --


GEORGE STONEY: -- and then when that disappears and, uh, an absentee landlord comes in, and I like to use that word, you see something else. Could you just talk about that?

RUSHMEYER: OK. Um, when an absentee landlord is in control, you kn- you know that, one, thats his property, whatever it may be; a building, a lot, a, a business. The only thing you get from that is maybe some commerce. Some other businesses may come in because hes here, uh, but as far as the upkeep on the property, on the businesses, its like it just falls to ruin because all he wants is the profits that come out of it, and thats all hes going to put in. Anything he can put in, he, he, he doesnt put in where hes gonna -- know nothing is coming back. He only puts in where he can take out. And, uh, 00:22:00then after he found out that the company wasnt running as well as it shouldve run, he sold it off. And he sold it to the Fieldcrest-Canno- to the Fieldcrest company, and, uh, they in turn are like nightmare compared to Murdock, you know. He wa- he, he was at least interested in assets that were coming out of the company, but with Fieldcrest, they wanna change everything. They wanna change the way you do your job. They wanna change the way you report for your, uh, sick leave. They changed the way you do your insurance. They changed -- its just a total turnover, and people who arent used to dealing with paperwork, theyre not used to dealing with increased insurance costs, and nobodys paying their bills, and all they see is their credit going downhill, you know. They feel hurt. And then, well, they said, Well, management's in. Well, talk to management, is the thing now. We talked to 00:23:00management, and we still get the same answers we got before, you know, Ill see what I can do. Its not helping you get your bills paid, and its not helping you to get your problem solved. Its just helping you to get them away from you, so that they donthave to answer any more questions.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, what about, uh, politics? The unions, uh --

HELFAND: Tish, shhh

GEORGE STONEY: --the, the -- in the past, many of the mills, as weve been told, told people how to vote, and they got very much interested in, in local politics, and the sheriff particularly because the sheriff protected the mills, and so forth and so on. Is anything like that going on, and if so, what can the union do about it?

RUSHMEYER: As far as, uh, politics for this area, um, its like attacking a mans, uh, intelligence. He doesnt want to be challenged on it. Uh, with 00:24:00the company, we know if we dont do what the company wants, what- for whatever reason, then we know that we get cut off at the knees, you know, and sometimes just pushed on out the gate. Um, but the Fieldcrest company is not really into our home politics, you know, because all their interested in is profit, you know, and we see that. They show that to us every day. All theyre interested in is profit. Uh, politics; whether we go -- whether we go for the new, uh, water lines or the new sewer systems outside the city, they really dont care, you know. It really doesnt matter.

GEORGE STONEY: So, its a very narrow thing.

RUSHMEYER: Yeah, its very narrow.

HELFAND: I said Charlie Cannon before, and your face lit up. What comes to mind when I s- when we say Charlie Cannon?

RUSHMEYER: When you say Charlie Cannon, you say, uh, jobs, you say stability. 00:25:00Uh, the Cannon company had oh, 18 plants just in the Kannapolis, and Concord, and Salisbury area. Uh, we knew with every job, there would be a person to do that job, you know. And you didnt go in and, and work all night, and work all night, and work all night and come out exhausted. You went in, and they expected a reasonable amount of work from you. It wasnt --

HELFAND: Really?

RUSHMEYER: -- yeah. It wasnt that you went in and just worked, and worked, and worked, and worked, you know, cause it wasnt like that. They gave out, uh, promotions for safety, you know, that were earnest. After so many hours without, uh, injury or without reported accident, you got incentive, and it wasnt ice cream, you know, it wasnt a towel. It was the incentive, and it was that they were car- they cared about you. They cared about the worker enough to know that, Hey, this man needs health insurance. Well scout and 00:26:00get him the best we can find, not create our own.

HELFAND: That happened -- thats, thats what...

RUSHMEYER: Thats what Charlie Cannon -- thats what Cannon family means.

HELFAND: So, would you need a union with Charlie Cannon?

RUSHMEYER: With Charlie Cannon, you wouldnt need a union.

HELFAND: You wouldnt even want one?

RUSHMEYER: No. No, because with Charlie Cannon, the job I have now, I would have my set work. I would have my set rate. Orders come in or orders dont come in, he still gonna work me. He may not work me six and seven days when the orders all pile up, but hell work me five days, and hell work me five eight-hour days, and I wont have to worry about that 12-hour shift, and I wont have to worry about the Saturday and the Sunday, even though the overtime is nice. It was there if you wanted it, and you could train anywhere. You could learn any job inside that -- any, any mill, but now, youre, youre like, if you move from one job to another now, you learn the job, you stay there, and youre bored for the rest of your life, unless you take the 00:27:00chance of moving out of the plant or moving out of the area. Then you take the chance of being bumped out because when lay-offs come, the last hired, first fired.


[break in audio; break in video]

GEORGE STONEY: -- and what he did in the 30s that this town doesnt seem to know about.

RUSHMEYER: Hm. Now, tell me. I was wanting to know.


HELFAND: Well, I just (inaudible), but before you do that --


HELFAND: -- how do you know about this about Mr. Cannon cause you didnt work for him, did you?

RUSHMEYER: No, I didnt work for him, but I have, uh...

GEORGE STONEY: Just say, No, I didnt for Charlie Cannon.

RUSHMEYER: I didnt work for Charlie -- well, I did work for Charlie Cannon because I worked 77 and 79, and I worked in the weave room. OK? In 77 and 79, a weaver had a weaving job.


RUSHMEYER: And, uh, when it came down to, uh, changing warps, you know, its, its a timely job. Its a heavy job. Uh, when it came down to smashing that warp to get that loom started back up, when it came down to fixing it, I had somebody there who would do these jobs for me in 77 and 79. When I 00:28:00went back in, in 82, I didnt have these people. I had a warp man who would bring it in and tie it up, and I had to smash it, and I had to provide my own filling, and I had to blow off my own loom, and, and the only thing I didnt do was the -- was the main -- mechanical part of it.


RUSHMEYER: That was -- thats the difference in the Charlie Cannon way --


RUSHMEYER: -- cause with Charlie Cannon, you had a weaver, you had a smasher, you had a warper, you had a knotter, you had a filling person, you had a fixer. With Fieldcrest, you have a weaver, you have a knotter, and you have a fixer, and theres three people gone. And that weaver is the one that picked up the slack.


RUSHMEYER: They do those other three jobs.

JAMIE STONEY: How much does that cut your production?

RUSHMEYER: It doesnt.

JAMIE STONEY: I mean, are you...?

RUSHMEYER: You may cut -- they may cut out a number of looms, OK, but with that number of looms cut, you know something else is coming.

JAMIE STONEY: But when they took the three people --


JAMIE STONEY: -- you had six people working with you.



JAMIE STONEY: Now you have three.


JAMIE STONEY: Whats your to- whats your output drop?

RUSHMEYER: OK. The output has not dropped.

JAMIE STONEY: So, theyve sped everything up to keep it there.

RUSHMEYER: They sped everything up. We had, uh -- in 85, I was told there was 10,000 people that voted in that election in 85. In 89, we had a little less than 7,300. That many people are gone, but the output is still the same or more. So, these reduced numbers doesnt mean that the production's gone down or the output's gone down. That -- those increased numbers -- those decreased numbers means that production is holding steady, and were the one thats taking the backlash. Were the one that has to put up with it.

GEORGE STONEY: How much of thats due to, um, more modern machinery?

RUSHMEYER: Not much, because as I can see it, uh, the only modern machinery that Ive seen them invest in for myself is they took out the, the old -- the smaller looms that we had, the Jacquard loom, and they put in a (inaudible) loom, but the (inaudible) loom was there in 83 because I remember when it 00:30:00first came in --


RUSHMEYER: -- and my cousin was a weaver. He told me, Oh, its a wonderful machine, and it just goes, and you just make money, you just make money. And the loom is larger. Its two of the smaller looms put together. Uh, thats one of the more modern, you know, that Ive seen. Others are vats that Ive seen in bleachery. Instead of it being the smaller units --


RUSHMEYER: -- they have these gigantic units, and I can put me and you into, you know, but one person has to see to six of these.

GEORGE STONEY: Mm-hmm. Well, Judy while you're closing the door I want to ask her another question.

HELFAND: OK. Let me get that.

GEORGE STONEY: Oh. Yeah, OK. We have been following the fate of the -- whats happened here after the, the 34 strike. And what Cannon did himself, and we have documentation from the National Archives of all this because the unions made protest. All the union leaders, practically all the 00:31:00union leaders, were fired and blacklisted.

HELFAND: Mm-hmm.

GEORGE STONEY: The unions protested, Cannon fought it for th- almost four years bfore the Cannon company finally made a settlement of about -- it amounted -- it didnt amount to very much. It amounted about two months pay for --


GEORGE STONEY: -- each person, but that was what was going on, and yet, we dont find anybody here knowing that that was the kind of thing that Cannon was doing back then.

RUSHMEYER: No. Uh, the same thing goes on now. We have wor-- we had 25 workers who were, uh, dismissed for one reason or another, so -- most of it, they call it insubordinate, you know, to management. These people that were dismissed from the mill for one reason or other just because they participated in the campaign -- I did more than they did during the campaign, you know. I 00:32:00feel that, hey, what I did none of them did less than, but why am I still in the mill, and why are they out? OK, uh, like it, uh, like it or not, as long as the company has power, they do what they want to do.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, thats interesting that Cannon was doing exactly the same thing --


GEORGE STONEY: -- back in the 30s, and nobody here seems to know about it. All --


GEORGE STONEY: -- they know is, What a wonderful guy Papa Cannon was. Why?

RUSHMEYER: Yeah, because, uh --

GEORGE STONEY: Just, uh, explaining that.

RUSHMEYER: -- well, OK. Papa Cannon had the Southern mentality of, We do not air our dirty laundry in public. And if we -- if blacklisting was going on in 34 and no one knew about it, its because they kept it extremely quiet, and they paid dearly to keep it quiet. But with businesses now, its like, Well, hey, well do however we please, and as long as the public 00:33:00doesnt hold them accountable, they get away with it.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, they were, uh, reminding people of what happened way back yonder in these meetings. Could you talk about that?

RUSHMEYER: Um, in those meetings -- I only got to go to two of them, OK? But the one -- even though I didnt go, I saw the impact after the meeting. Uh, and then, I saw the little --

GEORGE STONEY: Oh, sorry. You have to start again.

HELFAND: Could you --

GEORGE STONEY: And tell us about the meetings.


HELFAND: -- could you explain -- I saw the impact of those captive audiences.

RUSHMEYER: OK, OK. Uh, the captive audience meeting was, At 3:30 p.m., were going to meet, and we want you to go. We want you to go. And people would ask, Am I getting paid? Yeah, youre getting paid. And as long as they werent get-- they were getting -- still getting paid, they went to the meetings. And, uh, it was -- it was hard to see how they could still go and still suck up the garbage that was being given to them. But all they felt 00:34:00was, Hey, Im still getting paid, so Ill just go to the meeting, and I wont make any fuss. And the impact of those meetings was fear, you know -- the kind that you dont want to look at in the light of day.

GEORGE STONEY: What kind of garbage?

RUSHMEYER: The garbage of, The unions coming in, and the plants going out. Gates are going to be locked. Jobs are going to be gone, you know. Were going to go to Mexico, we're going overseas. Youre going to use your job. You know, you get into the union. Uh, you know theyre connecting with the mafia. Somebodys going to get hurt. And then, the next thing we heard, strikes. Youre going to be shut out. Theyre going to make you -- (inaudible) going to make you go to the street. Youre going to lose your job, and we can bring anybody in here to take your job we want. And the impact of that meeting that focused on strike, it was -- to see a person 00:35:00go in with an indifferent opinion, you know, or trying not to show which side they were on -- to see them go in that meeting with that feeling and then come out and hear and just to see, you know -- they didnt want to discuss it. They didnt want to talk to you. They wouldnt even come -- you know, and a lot of them came back to me after meetings, but they wouldnt come to me. And I, you know, just did not have the -- didnt know why, because I wasnt in the meeting, you know. But as time progressed and I find out, that was the most violent part that they could show. They picked the worst parts of all strikes from anywhere, and they showed this to these people, people being beaten, people losing their automobiles and baseball bats, and people attacking gates, and it was just terrible.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, its interesting to me that back in 33 and 34, there 00:36:00were literally hundreds of thousands of Southerners who were members of the textile workers union.


GEORGE STONEY: I mean, there were over 100 locals in -- in this state alone, and yet, almost nobody talks about that. I wonder why.

RUSHMEYER: Uh, at one time, I tried to talk to my father.

GEORGE STONEY: Just a moment. Were going to get this as soon as the --

[break in the audio; break in video]

RUSHMEYER: -- out of your system?

GEORGE STONEY: All right, now.


HELFAND: (inaudible)

RUSHMEYER: Get down, monkey. Youll fall. Ready?



GEORGE STONEY: OK, now, you were telling about your father.

RUSHMEYER: At one time, I tried to talk to my father about a union, and, uh, this was -- this was years before I had even thought of going back into the mill. And he told me -- he says, Well, at one time, there was a union. And they came in, and they took the money from the people, and they left them high 00:37:00and dry. And I didnt know what, you know -- what those words did or meant to me then, but I do know now, because you know, its still being used. In every campaign that ever comes up, you go to the union. Theyre going to take your money, and then theyre going to (inaudible). And it still -- you know, it still rings, whether it happened or whether it didnt. But it still rings in peoples heads, Thats what a union is about, that its only money, and that they cant make the company do what the company doesnt want them to do. And it -- its -- thats the one of the parts that make organizing so hard, you know? When people had faith then, and whatever happened in the past to crush all the conf idence, you know -- its very hard to 00:38:00rebuild that confidence back.

GEORGE STONEY: Beautiful, beautiful.

HELFAND: Yeah, one second. You were telling me about this -- first of all --


HELFAND: -- tell me about this shirt, tell --

RUSHMEYER: This is my armor. (laughter) This shirt is my armor, and I wear one every day. When I got to work, I wear a shirt.

GEORGE STONEY: Uh, we dont -- sorry, we have to do that again, because we -- we --

JAMIE STONEY: No, were rolling. I just --

GEORGE STONEY: -- well, yes, but we didnt see enough of the shirt.


HELFAND: OK. You know what, sweetie? Can you stop touching Jamie and come near your mommy? It would be much more helpful.

JAMIE STONEY: Well, I like her touching me. Its just where she touches me.


JAMIE STONEY: Shes trying to pick my pocket now.

RUSHMEYER: Oh, get away from the money, honey. Uh, this shirt is part of my armor. Its -- its to say, Hey, I stood then in 91 for the union. Im still standing now for it. This one guy says, Well, you know, this girl, she has a shirt. And you dont know what color its going to be, but she has one on every day, you know. And I -- yeah, it makes me feel good 00:39:00that people recognize it, you know. And I know sometimes, people feel like, well hey, its over. Why dont she just let it drop? But if I fade into the woodwork now, you know, what happens to the people who stood and -- and -- but didnt have the strength to come out like me, you know?

GEORGE STONEY: What keeps you going?

RUSHMEYER: Uh, what keeps me headed towards unionization is to know that one day, that company that I worked for will have to answer and give an account to what they have done to so many other people, and that the future generations that go inside that plant are going to be able to go in with respect, are going to be able to go in with something otherthan a paycheck. Thats what keeps me going.

GEORGE STONEY: Beautiful. OK, I think we can --

JAMIE STONEY: Im on the logo.

GEORGE STONEY: -- OK, I think we can quit. OK.

HELFAND: Laurie, what is the worst thing that you have seen in the last year in 00:40:00terms of intimidation, in terms of peoples being turned around?

RUSHMEYER: When they picked one employee and they isolate it, and they say, Look at that girl over there. Shes brand new. Do you want to be like her? She doesnt have anybody to talk to. She dont have no friends. And they do that, because one day, my plant manager walked in, and I -- I saw him, and he saw me. And they introduced me to him, and I got this wimpy handshake. You know, come on. Be real. You dont want to know who I am, because you already know. You know, and hes like -- puts on this fake smile, and he tells my supervisor, You watch her. Watch every move she makes. I want to know about it. And my supervisor says, OK, boss. And thats (inaudible), Well, hey, shes been watching me. Well, before hi-- her has been watching me, you can come on out, and all of yall can watch, and the 00:41:00company can go haywire.

GEORGE STONEY: Is, uh -- is your supervisor black?

RUSHMEYER: No, shes a white lady. I had a man during the, uh, campaign, and he was one of these, uh, Ill do what the company wants me to do so I can keep my job. He didnt go much further beyond that. But this lady that I have now, she went through, and she told her, uh, Hispanic, Laotian, and other workers -- got their interpreter and said, Vote -- vote for them, or were taking your green card. You cant vote in this election. Youre not an American citizen. And she did things like this, but this is -- this is her position. She is a ministers wife, but she went so far out as to threaten these people.

JAMIE STONEY: So shes bought and paid for.

RUSHMEYER: Shes bought and paid for, completely, yeah. But she and I dont really talk. I guess shes afraid I might mention the U-word.


HELFAND: OK, this was great.


GEORGE STONEY: OK, thats a wrap.

HELFAND: Thanks a lot.

[break in audio]

GEORGE STONEY: Cynthia, uh, tell these people what you think is the most -- has been the most effective means the union -- uh, the company has used to get people afraid.

CYNTHIA: It was the meetings they had.

GEORGE STONEY: Uh, just start out with, I think the most effective...

CYNTHIA: The most effective thing on the people was the meeting they had and the movies they showed them. The movies were terrible. I just got to see them myself, and it was making fun of -- it was actually making fun of the workers, making them look like dumb hicks. And the -- that -- the movie about the strikes is what bothered me the most, and I know it bothered a lot of people. And Ive watched the news all my life, and Ive never seen nothing like that. It was a made-up bunch of mess, I think. What do yall think?

L. BOYD DEAL: I think its one of the best forms of brainwashing that any industry ever dreamed up to suppress the people that, uh, really dont have a 00:43:00hometown newspaper that gives a fair view of, uh, what is happening in the hometown. They slant the news all in favor of the company owner. You never read anything at all (phone ringing) in the Daily Independent about what the working class of people are faced with in (phone ringing) their daily working and daily --


DEAL: -- eight-hour shift or twelve-hour shift.

HELFAND: Whats been going down --

GEORGE STONEY: Yes it is. Were just making some, uh --

HELFAND: -- in the last year?

DEAL: -- scenes from a movie here now.

CYNTHIA: Rate cuts and, uh, strike outs.

PEGGY: More of the same.

GEORGE STONEY: Uh, yes, she is.

CYNTHIA: Basically the same.

HELFAND: One second. Why dont we let (inaudible) take this phone call? All right. Now, (inaudible), I came in here the other day. Everyone was real natural, sitting around, and they were angry, really angry, about what -- (break in audio; break in video), and thats one of the things that were trying to 00:44:00understand, is how that kind of fear is perpetuated and where it comes from and...

CYNTHIA: The fear comes from generation to generation. Its been -- and its born in them and bred in them, and its passed from generation to generation.

MARY: Well, to me, since, you know, Im an outsider -- to me, this is just like -- and, uh, yall probably heard me say this -- its like a plantation.

F1: Mm-hmm.

MARY: And you know, this --

CYNTHIA: Were the slaves.

MARY: -- big company is, you know, the master, and -- and the workers inside that plant is just slaves. And -- and people have been -- its been, like you say, passed down from generation to generation, and people dont know any better. They want better, I think, now, but I think that one of the things during -- you know -- this campaign and this year after the campaign is the retaliation, the firings, and -- and people, you know, still are -- got in their 00:45:00mind about the plant closings. And, um, if -- if they do speak out, you know, the master is going to come down on them, the supervisors and everything, and youre going to lose your job. And thats what we hear, you know? I cant speak out because Im going to lose my job. No -- you know. And weve had people come in here thats been fired since then, and you say, Well, did you speak up during the election? Did you say anything? Oh, no. They told me that I -- if I did, Id be fired. And I asked them, Where are you sitting at now? Youre fired.

CYNTHIA: Thats right.

MARY: And you know, its just this -- its fear that, you know -- you dont know how to get it out of people, because --

CYNTHIA: Thats right.

MARY: -- people never know from one day to the next where theyre going to have the job or not with this company. But yet, theyre afraid to speak up --

CYNTHIA: Thats right.

MARY: -- and say, Youre doing this wrong. Theyll come down here and tell us, you know, and well get phone calls. I just want you to know how 00:46:00dirty the company is, you know. Well, will you participate? Will you, you know. Oh, no. If I do that, theyll -- theyll fire. Uh, its just --

CYNTHIA: Thats right.

MARY: -- amazing that theres that much fear in this town like there is.

CYNTHIA: Well, in one of the movies that I saw, they brought up Charlie Cannon. They always hold Charlie Cannon over these people, and I dont know how long peoples going to have to live before they forget Charlie Cannon. Do you?

DEAL: No, its really amazing, the type of brainwashing that has went on in these movies.

CYNTHIA: Mm-hmm.

MARY: And see, Charlie Cannon basically started this fear, because he made people -- yeah, you know. Charlie give them a job. He let them live in their company houses. He paid the light bill and the water bill, kept the house up. And then, you know, when Murdock came in here and he sold out the houses out from and under them, and Ill -- you know, Charlie treated everybody just like 00:47:00you would a child. You know, Youre all my children, and Ill take care of you. And then, when Murdock came in here, the people basically didnt know how to take care of theirself.

GEORGE STONEY: Could you hold on just a moment?

HELFAND: What youre saying is so important, and its so natural. Would it be OK if we got a little bit of you having this discussion, since youre in it already, Mary?

MARY: Just get the side, OK?


GEORGE STONEY: All right, yeah, OK.

MARY: I wont look at you.

GEORGE STONEY: Oh, well, thats what you -- thats what you face.

HELFAND: Fine, fine.

CYNTHIA: Well, (inaudible) why not yours.

HELFAND: OK. What were you saying about a plantation?

MARY: Its -- its, you know -- its just like a big plantation. This whole town is a plantation. And you know --

CYNTHIA: Thats right.

MARY: Theyve been the masters for years, and the people are slaves.

CYNTHIA: Theyre slaves.

MARY: And you dont -- you know, You dont buck me. You dont, you know, because if you do, you knw. Th-- they cant sell you, but they can sure put you out of work.

CYNTHIA: Thats right.


MARY: And, um -- and people just, you know -- they -- theyve been living under this. And like I said, Charlie Cannon was the master, and thats all the people knowed. Youll hear some people that says, I dont like Charlie Cannon, you know. I didnt like him. Then, weve had people tell us they like Murdock because they think Murdock came in here, and all this work he did downtown on the buildings and everything -- you know, our town was dying and all. And here come Murdock along and see, he -- they -- in their mind, he has saved their hometown, even though the man stole from them, treated them like dogs, and everything. But you know, this is true (inaudible). You know --


MARY: -- we -- weve heard this.

CYNTHIA: Its true.

DEAL: I know you have. I just (inaudible) --

MARY: And now, here, Fitzgibbons comes along, and hes still kicking people.

CYNTHIA: Hes the master now.

MARY: And hes the master now.

DEAL: Yeah.

MARY: And --

CYNTHIA: Just trust me.

MARY: -- all, and so -- Trust me, and the people just turned right around. It -- its just been inbredded in them to trust somebody, and -- and you 00:49:00know, I wonder why people want to be supervisors and all. But to people here in this down and all, you know, a lot of them who are maybe younger, they look up to those supervisors.

DEAL: They do.

CYNTHIA: Yeah, (inaudible).

MARY: You know, maybe its not even the money --


MARY: -- to these people -- of being a supervisor -- which I know that plays a big part in it. But to them, its that -- that theyve got people --

RUSHMEYER: Theyre the overseers, see.

MARY: -- oh, theyre the overseers.

RUSHMEYER: Theyre the overseer to the master. They --

MARY: Mm-hmm.

RUSHMEYER: -- they do his bidding no matter what he says, and then he doesnt have to get his hands dirty.

MARY: Thats right. So, um --

DEAL: Youre right, Laurie.

MARY: -- you know, and it is just a fear, you know.

CYNTHIA: When we tried to get the union in in 85, Murdock came through shaking everybodys hands. And I saw women actually kissing him.

DEAL: Yeah.


CYNTHIA: And he was stealing us blind, and we thought he was bad until Fieldcrest took over.

DEAL: Peggy, youre too quiet.


PEGGY: No, Im just listening. Ive --

DEAL: I think you need to say something.

PEGGY: -- sitting here thinking because I -- I cant be one of these people that are in fear of it. I was raised here, you know, all my life.

CYNTHIA: Me too.

PEGGY: But something inside of me says that, no, I dont fear anything but god.

CYNTHIA: Thats not right. Thats right. Thats right.

PEGGY: Hes the only one --

DEAL: Thats what you're supposed to fear, only God.

PEGGY: -- that can make me or break me, you know?

CYNTHIA: Mm-hmm.

PEGGY: And in this last year, since Ive been work and on leave, Ive seen that, you know -- its not a matter of Fieldcrest can put me out. Its a matter of -- of God can put me out, and thats the only one.


CYNTHIA: Thats right.

DEAL: Amen, amen.

PEGGY: You know? And thats what I tried to tell the people during the campaign, that -- stand up for your rights. Youve got to do it sooner or later because the whole rest of the country is already standing up to theirs.

CYNTHIA: Thats right.

RUSHMEYER: Thats it.

PEGGY: You know? Uh --

DEAL: (inaudible)

PEGGY: -- we cant be like sheep forever being led to slaughter.

DEAL: Thats right.

MARY: Thats right. But where youre a strong enough person --

RUSHMEYER: You dont have everybody thats that strong.

MARY: -- (inaudible) and youre -- you -- you know, its very unusual in this town to find people like sitting around this table here.



MARY: And I -- you know, theres -- there is -- we -- there is people that voted against the union in this last election that wanted it --


PEGGY: Mm-hmm.

MARY: That actually wanted the union, but they --

CYNTHIA: And was afraid.

MARY: -- went in there and voted no because of fear.

CYNTHIA: Thats right.

MARY: Because of the movies that was shown, the strikes, the lies that was told to the people, you know.


MARY: And they are so conditioned to listening to the supervisors, you know, because of what Im saying that -- you know, this power that, for some reason, the supervisor -- it doesnt matter --


MARY: -- what kind of a person they are or anything else, but the supervisor is a supervisor.

PEGGY: Mm-hmm.

MARY: So --

GEORGE STONEY: Well, now, the history that has governed all this for the last 60 years doesnt seem to be very well known. Its -- all the people know is fear, uh, that when the union came, there were -- the troops came and so forth. How much do they know about the kind of organizing that had been done by your 00:52:00parents and grandparents?

CYNTHIA: That -- weve come a long way, baby, as they say, because used to -- people was afraid to say the word union. But now, we got people that will stand up and tell them they want a union -- people like us. So we have come a long way.

MARY: Basically, a lot of the people in the plant -- not a lot, but some of them knew about the 30s and all, which the company -- that was the first thing they jumped on was the strike that they had here in the 30s, you know. So that brought it -- that -- you know, they -- it wasnt -- it was laying in the back of their minds. So when they said that, it brought it out to some of the older ones, and the older ones were talking to the younger people, Oh, my parents went for a strike in the 30s, you know, and they lost everything they had. You know, so -- you know, it did, even though maybe we, 00:53:00as organizers, dont think that that has an effect on people, but it does. You know, because -- like one woman called here one time, and she said her granddaughter voted against the union. And since then, the company had really been coming down hard on her, you know. And she said she listened to the older workers in the plant, and Ill bet you that a lot of these older workers were people that had family during the 30s --

PEGGY: Mm-hmm.

MARY: -- that went through the strike, and you know --


MARY: -- this was what they were preaching.

GEORGE STONEY: Well, Cynthia, you had a different experience --

CYNTHIA: (inaudible)

GEORGE STONEY: -- didnt you? Yeah.

HELFAND: Except she didnt know about it.

CYNTHIA: Right. My ancestors were for the union. I had an -- a great uncle that was an organizer, and I didnt know it until all this came about. And the people saw me on TV, and they started telling me. And he was an organizer in the 30s, and my great-grandfather on my mothers side belonged to a 00:54:00union in 1900. We got proof of it. He -- we got his minutes to the meetings and all that.

HELFAND: In what town?

DEAL: Thats wonderful.

CYNTHIA: So -- and I didnt know that I had union blood in me until then.

DEAL: Oh, thats great.

CYNTHIA: And its running on both sides of my veins.

DEAL: Thats good. I knew you was doing good.

HELFAND: Cynthia, what town was this?

CYNTHIA: And I was so -- that was the best surprise Ive ever had in my life, huh?

HELFAND: What town was that, that your gra-- great-grandfather --

CYNTHIA: My great-uncle? Kannapolis and Gastonia and Concord.

HELFAND: And then, the -- the union book that you found when youre uncle -- where your grandpa --

CYNTHIA: Nineteen-oh-one and 1902.

HELFAND: In Salisbury?

CYNTHIA: In Salisbury, at Cotton Mill. They called it Salisbury Mill, and they called the union Textile Workers of America.

GEORGE STONEY: Well, now, we have been up to --

DEAL: Thats great.

GEORGE STONEY: -- the -- we have been up to the museum here, which is, in effect, a museum to the Cannon family. Its called a textile museum, but 00:55:00its really to the Cannon family.

CYNTHIA: (inaudible) Its a monument to the Cannons.


CYNTHIA: A shrine.

GEORGE STONEY: Uh, where are the workers?

DEAL: Well, uh,most people in the mill, like Cynthia, they said its a tradition that -- that, Grandfather had this kind of problem, and he was scared to join the union. Hes anti-union, and its just handed down. But then, everybody thought the great savior for Kannapolis was Mr. David Murdock. Well, he came in, and he made out like hes going to really be our friend and really, uh, help us, and the biggest thing he did was change downtown. And like you just asked, where is -- are the people? Well, these same people said -- told me, in the mill, that (inaudible), He saved us. He saved our town. But I went downtown one day, riding around, and nine out of ten cars are from out of state or out of town. And I -- I used to -- could see, uh, 50 to 100 people that I worked with up in the plant walking the streets of Kannapolis. Now, theyre just visitors. This is a tourist attraction. Uh, 00:56:00he took our town, stoled our town from us.

CYNTHIA: Thats right.

DEAL: It was in the deal of buying the mill -- he actually stoled our town.

CYNTHIA: Thats exactly right.

MARY: Thats right.

DEAL: You could rent a place down in Kannapolis at that time for $200 a month -- I mean a nice building. And now, its $2,000 a month.

CYNTHIA: Thats right.

DEAL: He took $104 million of my hard-earned retirement money, which it was legal to do by the federal government, who was too stupid -- our congressmen and senators are too st-- stupid to stop these loopholes of letting the super rich rob the poorest people on the face of the earth here, in Kannapolis, and everywhere else. I feel sorry for the people everywhere else. This is the next big scandal thats going to hit America. Its not the S and the L this time. Its going to be your retirement plans is all going to be drained off by your rich Republicans in this country, and theyre already aiming at it right now. After the election, you will see the biggest, uh, swindling of your 00:57:00retirement money, and the government knows the loopholes are there. They wont close them. They say its legal, and the people -- all they got to turn to, so, Well, the United States governmentll back us if we lose this. That aint what its supposed to be about. Youre supposed to leave our funds there. We put them there.

CYNTHIA: Thats right.

DEAL: Hed run off with $104 million, took $39 million in his pocket legally, and how much more illegally well never know. And then, hell not in-- ever come back to Kannapolis because hes ashamed to be seen in Kannapolis, and I think thats a disgrace.

MARY: I dont think hes ashamed as much as he is afraid.

PEGGY: Absolutely.

MARY: Because when he did come in here during the campaign, he had the state troopers --

PEGGY: Had to sneak in.

CYNTHIA: That --

MARY: -- he had to sneak in, and he wouldnt let the people know that he was coming in when he did that, you know. And if it hadnt been for the union, uh, all the people wouldnt have got that 30% back that they were cut on that. Theyre still getting in right now. But up until that time, until we brought 00:58:00publicity and all on Murdock, these people had their pensions cut, you know. Sure, they may have got $14 a month, but he cut it down to maybe $9 a month.

DEAL: Sure did.

MARY: You know.

DEAL: Ive seen that.

MARY: And, um, so he wasnt -- he wasnt ashamed to come back, because I dont think somebody like him is ashamed, you know. But he was afraid to come back. He was afraid of the older people in this town -- is exactly what it was.

CYNTHIA: The -- before we voted in 85, he got on television and told the people, Trust me, just like, uh, Fitzgibbons did.

PEGGY: Mm-hmm.

CYNTHIA: And as soon as we voted and they voted the union down, he got on his million-dollar Arabian horse and said, Adios, amigo. Ill see you all later.

DEAL: Thats true.

CYNTHIA: And he left town with the retirement, with everything.

PEGGY: Cut 3,500 jobs out too.

DEAL: Yeah.

CYNTHIA: And then, Fitzgibbons had the gall to say, Trust me again, and the people -- I guess they fell for it. I dont know. They fell for 00:59:00something. But 3,000 of them didnt fall for it -- were proud of that.

DEAL: (inaudible)

RUSHMEYER: I feel like, you know, it -- I was raised outside of Kannapolis. Uh, and I was here for 18 years, then I left this small little area, and I saw some other part of the country. And I saw a place -- it did -- uh, Im not talking about paradise, but I was -- I saw a place where I could work, and I could be treated like a person, and I had my rights to disagree with the boss man and not get fired. Uh, when youre exposed to, uh, another type of lifestyle, and then you come back to this style, and then you come back to this mentality, it blows your mind that it is still here.

F1: Mm-hmm.

F2: Mm-hmm.


RUSHMEYER: That were still living before the Emancipation Proclamation was signed.

CYNTHIA: Thats right.

DEAL: Thats right.

MARY: Because slavery is still in effect here.

RUSHMEYER: Were still living in that time.

GEORGE STONEY: Cynthia, you say you have got to go. Tell us your last words.

CYNTHIA: Well, Id just like to say to the people that did vote yes that Im proud of them. Im very proud of them after I saw the tapes that the company showed them, and I wish that the other people would just realize that they dont have to be afraid. And thats it. I got to go to work. And see, I didnt get fired. I stood out and stood for what I --

F1: Thats right.

CYNTHIA: -- believed in, and I hadnt got fired yet.

F1: Still standing.

CYNTHIA: And they dont have to be afraid.

HELFAND: Why didnt you get fired?

CYNTHIA: I dont know. I guess I run my job, is all I know.

GEORGE STONEY: Let me s-- make another suggestion.

CYNTHIA: All you have to do is run your job. They cant hire you for standing up for what you believe in.

GEORGE STONEY: Let me make another suggestion, and this comes from history. They select a certain number of people so they --


CYNTHIA: To fire.

GEORGE STONEY: -- can frighten everybody. Theyve got to have people like you to run the mills, but --

CYNTHIA: And they take people and make an example out of them. I believe that.

MARY: Well, you look at L. Boyd.

CYNTHIA: Like heres one right here.

PEGGY: Mm-hmm.

CYNTHIA: I know he ran his job, but they just chose him to make an example and scare people, and it -- it did -- it done it. It done what --

DEAL: But I want to thank God that we do have a, uh, system in America thats still in place when you got the, uh, Act II people with, uh, lawyers to take you into these federal courtrooms to give you a -- a day of justice. And I had my day of justice, and I thank God for it. And I tell you what -- I embarrassed them to death. There was nothing on my record for 30 years of employment that said I didnt do my job. There was nothing on my record for 30 years that said I was ever a -- abused my absenteeism. I was never out over 8%, never written up one time. And yet, the only thing that they could come up with -- 01:02:00and this is the dirty tactics of Jim Fitzgibbons and his dirty lawyers, Roberts and them -- they assassinated my character on the outside of the mill, which has nothing a -- absolutely at all to do with you running your job from 3:00 to 11:00 in the plant. Now, anybody can make a mistake and lie, but the way they try to slant the truth in the courtroom -- I think the federal judge seen through that, and I know within my heart that that federal judge seen the truth, and the truthll set us all free, brother.

CYNTHIA: Thats right.

GEORGE STONEY: Thank you, Cynthia.

CYNTHIA: Youre welcome.

HELFAND: Oh, Boyd, wait -- do you have to go?

DEAL: No, Im going to just let Cynthia out.

CYNTHIA: See ya'll later. You too, L. Boyd. I love you too.

DEAL: Love you to death.

CYNTHIA: (inaudible) loves you too.

DEAL: I know he did.

CYNTHIA: You know he did.

HELFAND: Did they fire you because you were active?

F1: They did.


GEORGE STONEY: Cynthia, I need to get your signature -- just this, yeah.


JAMIE STONEY: Did they fire you because you were active?

GEORGE STONY: Thank you for (inaudible). I hope it didnt make you late.

DEAL: Yes, uh, my, uh, supervisor at that time kept warning me personally, and he would, uh, threaten me different ways about, If you dont straight up, youre going to lose your job. So I was smart enough, and I thank God -- I give God the credit for this, because I was really just another textile worker, just believed their lies for years and years. But then, it was like God come down upon me and said I had to do it. Im not that much of a Christian person, but if God picks you to do something -- like when Saul was on the way to Damascus, he picked him. And he was not a righteous man, but he picked him to do something, and I feel like God picked me to help these people get out of the 01:04:00poverty situation here in Kannapolis that I know that theyre in. And I got sisters that worked there 50 years that draw like $18 a month. Two sisters put over 100 years in with Fieldcrest-Cannon draw less than $50 a month. Now, you show me any kind of justice in that, and I think thats a sin. But I was fired to plant fear in people. I was fired on election day last November -- I mean last August the 23rd. And my boss man said that, Well get you, and well embarrass you, and they did. They rode me out like Jim Baker. It was shameful. They rode me out in a limo with two plain policemen. They had four other (inaudible) standing by, hiding like I was some kind of criminal and enemy that they wasnt sure of how he was going to act. I was told that I was a snake in the grass because I believed in my constitutional right that the 01:05:00United States government told me I had. I had four brothers in World War II. I and another brother served after the war, yet I came back here, and like Laurie said, after youve seen the other parts of the world, and you come back and you see that they still suppress you -- they wouldnt let my best buddy go to the movie. They wouldnt let me go to that movie. They told him, and he served -- his name is Ernest Alexander. He served in Vietnam. He served in Saudi Arabia, and his girlfriend served in, uh, that wartime situation there, and yet, they were told they couldnt go to see this movie. Now, why would you be -- if you are an American, why would you be suppressed from seeing a movie?

F1: Right.

DEAL: I mean, why cant you have the right to go see that movie?

HELFAND: The movie -- the company movie?

DEAL: The -- the movie that we just witnessed here this morning.


HELFAND: Just -- just say, Those -- the co-- they wouldnt let him go see the company movies.


DEAL: Right, well, we wasnt allowed and given the constitutional right to go see a company movie.

JAMIE STONEY: Can you do that again, L. Boyd?

HELFAND: Yeah, you --

JAMIE STONEY: Im just changing the shot a little bit.

HELFAND: -- yeah, you were just saying that they wouldnt let you and your friends go see --

DEAL: Yes, I had, uh, friends that spent a lot of time in the service, and they came out, and they had served two wars. And yet, they were told, just like me, No, you cannot go see this company movie because we know you dont believe our way, and you might be a threat to us inside of that little room. You might say something out of line, Mr. Deal.

MARY: This is supposed to be the freest country in the world and all, but its not. Because when you step inside those gates --

RUSHMEYER: (inaudible).

PEGGY: (inaudible).

MARY: -- your rights, you leave them on the outside. And thats why I, you know -- I say that its just like a plantation.

DEAL: It is.


MARY: Here in this town, and -- and you know, and the company treats the people this way and makes no bones about it, you know. Its just like theyre proud. You know, We control the whole town. If you dont do what we say in here, well get you outside and (inaudible).

PEGGY: That's right.

MARY: You know, and you know, its amazing, but it does happen. It is -- it works on peoples minds, and, um, what its going to take to change it here, I dont know. You know? Im like Cynthia. Im proud of the 3,000 and something votes that --


MARY: -- we got with what yall people went through during that election, you know. You know? Because they -- they really put the people through. Youre talking about June, uh, 12th to August the 20th and 21st, yall were -- you know, yall were hit every time you went in that plant, and, uh --

DEAL: They added to my job twice during that period of the election, which was 01:08:00about 90 days. They added to my job twice, and Im not no dummy. I was in supervision 15 years and on production 15 years. I knew what they was doing. I was wearing my Act II badge to work. I was signing up people in my department. I had 75% of my department signed up on the second shift. Im proud of that. But they scared -- with these movies, they scared the same people, and I doubt if I had 55% on election day because of these movies that they slant the truth.

GEORGE STONEY: What was in the -- what was in those movies?

DEAL: In those movies, its all slanted, uh, towards fear, fear of tomorrow, fear of the future. If you let these outsiders come in, which, uh, we dont. We let them tell us how to set our union up. They show us how to organize and set up our union, but we run our union. Wed have leaders like this lady here, Peggy, running our union for us, and we trust her, and she would be a good leader. And one of the proudest moments I had during the whole 01:09:00campaign was when this lady here and three or four of her friends sat on a panel, and they did -- thank God -- let them on TV. And I -- I found out and made a tape of it for her. And I was so proud that these four people -- like Mary said -- suppressed at works, put fear in them. We might let you go. Were going to run you off if you dont do our way. But they got on television and done a wonderful job of telling the American people the truth. But the company frowned upon that very much so, and I appreciate theres a few good Americans like Laurie thatll stand up and tell the American people the truth. And, uh, its sad that your newspapers in these local towns are local controlled by one man, and they will not put stuff in there that gives a fair view of the whole picture. Its always slanted to the rich man, mill owners advantage.


PEGGY: I think its like George said, too. When theyre picking out different people for different purposes, whether its to fire them or -- or to eliminate them from the meetings and things like this, I think they also pick out people that theyre a little bit afraid of, and I think I was one of those because for one thing, I was a single person. Its hard to pick on a single woman and fire her because shes going out and speaking for a union when she knows its her right to organize. Its another thing if I werent doing my job, if I werent being on time, if I werent showing up at all, things like that. But then, when they singled me out and said that I couldnt come to their meetings and watch their movies, then half of the people on my shift joined with me and wanted to know why, because I was sitting out there running a machine. I was still on the payroll. I was still a member of Fieldcrest-Cannon, but I wasnt allowed to go see their movies, and the automatically said that I was a troublemaker, that that was the reason I 01:11:00couldnt go, not that I was trying to organize a union or that I was being disruptive in the -- in the plant, but that I was a troublemaker. And when I called my supervisor on that, they sore that 19 people lied. Nineteen people didnt come back from his office and -- and say that I was a troublemaker because he didnt say it, because these were my friends.

GEORGE STONEY: I thought you were only measured in that plant by your production.


RUSHMEYER: No, youre measured --

PEGGY: No sir.

RUSHMEYER: -- youre -- youre measured, uh -- before the campaign came about, you were measured, one, by race. If they felt you would, uh, do company bidding for them, and they neededa black face in, theyd put it in. If they felt youd do company bidding for them no matter what it was, w-- whether it was to just run somebody elses job because they were ready to run them off, theyd pick you. Theyd measure you by how you stand out in your -- in your 01:12:00peers, the people you work with. If they respect you and they dont like the -- why they respect you, then they pick on you then. See, things like this didnt just start at the campaign, and people just didnt realize it. But it was escalated, see, because when I first started working in washcloth department, I was a real quiet k-- type of person because I knew I couldnt just charge in and be me, because I knew a lot of people wouldnt accept me because I stand on what I believe, and I know what I know. And as -- its been said once before. I have but one man to fear. Thats my creator, my God.

DEAL: Thats right.

RUSHMEYER: And see, you cant bring that -- you cant bring that feeling with you and -- and just let it out, because everybody wont accept it, and you know youll be prosecuted for it. But once they found out I was a good worker, once they found out I came in on time and I did my job and I picked up knowledge as I did my job of other peoples jobs, they let me roam in my 01:13:00department as I pleased. They picked me, Oh, well, she do good. Let her have that job tonight. Shell do it good. While hes out, let her do that job tonight. But when the campaign kicked off, and I -- they saw me standing on that gate -- no more. Laurie, you stay on your job. Well, so-and-sos out. Dont you need help? No, thats all right. Well run it short. Well let it stand. See thats what -- thats where it escalates. When your opinion reflects in more than one person around you, then it escalates. Thats when you become the one they pick on, you -- they prosecute. And when they feel they cant handle you and youre out of control, then they fire you.

GEORGE STONEY: Let me ask you a question that -- people talking about the 30s, many people have told us, you know, old people who -- and particularly people who werent in the factories but who lived in the towns -- they said, Well, only trashy people and irresponsible people got messed up with the union.

DEAL: Thats right.

GEORGE STONEY: Was there anything like that now?


PEGGY: Same thing.

RUSHMEYER: Yeah, they picked on a -- a coworker of mine, works in my department, uh, Benny MacIntyre, and they said he was dirty. They said -- See, he has brown lung. He contracted it from his job with Cannon Mills in the card room because of the high cotton dust. OK, so they had to take him out of that department and put him in washcloth. They said, You going to follow a man like Benny? Bennys dirty. Bennys got brown lung. He probably smoked ten packs of cigarettes a day. How do you get brown lung but by cotton dust? And hows he going to get it in his home? The people at the gate are dirty. The people at the gate dont work. The people at the gate are lazy. People at the gate are just looking for a free meal ticket.

DEAL: True.

PEGGY: A lady told me, you know -- one day, she, uh, stopped me down there and asked me, and she was (inaudible). And she was asked me -- it was past (inaudible), but she asked me. She said, uh, Just why is it do you think we need a union in here? And I told her. I said, Well," you know, I said, the people were telling us how hard they had to work, the -- the more work the company was putting on them, and how they were being treated. 01:15:00Thats a lie, she said. Thats a lie, said, The only people that wants a union in here is just sorry and lazy and dont want to work, you know.

DEAL: Thats the --

MARY: And I said, Well, mam, you -- you saying that, you know, that youve got it easy in there? Thats right. Thats right. Ive got it easy. Said, Theyre just a bunch of liars, and I said, Well, mam, there must be an awful lot of liars in that mill.

DEAL: Three thousand.

MARY: Mm-hmm. But you know, they -- they brainwashed other people that -- that -- the people that were standing up for their rights, you know, they point out, Well, you wouldnt want so-and-so (inaudible).

DEAL: Yeah, that was --

MARY: Thatll be your (inaudible).

DEAL: -- brought up on me, Mary. Uh, I had people --

MARY: You know.

DEAL: -- feeding me what theyve seen in this, uh, movie and what went on there, and they come back down and told me, said, L. Boyd, they brought your name up in that movie and said you was running for steward already, said what you were doing was campaigning to be a steward leader and said, uh, they said, Whod you rather go to? Had you rather go to that Deal Boyd down there, or 01:16:00come to us, the one with the big heart thatll listen to your problem, and one thatll sit down, and one-on-one, we can discuss your problem. Well, we know what one-on-one can get you.

PEGGY: Absolutely -- nothing.

DEAL: (phone ringing) For 100 years, 1897 -- almost 100 years -- say 90-something years its been. We can sit down and talk to you people and work everything out. They aint worked nothing out --

PEGGY: Thats right.

DEAL: -- if you aint got a union to work it out with you and for you.

MARY: Absolutely right, but you know, they do -- they paint the union people as trash.

DEAL: Yeah, they told me, Them dirty misfit people from out of town, L. Boyd, said, What do you follow 'em? We thought youre smarter than that, said, I can just look at how they dress. Theyre not even up to the standard. And Im thinking, Oh, Lord, help me to control my actions Lord, and help me to understand where these people are coming from. Because like Peggy said, I got enough common sense -- and I thank God for it -- to know 01:17:00what the Constitution of the United States says, and I thank God that I know most of it.

MARY: But goes back, a lot of it, to your politicians too, that -- you know, ignorance of the American public. You know, they -- people didnt realize what yall people had to go through with in that plant. You know, a lot of people in this country dont realize that. And then, when you -- you know, all they see about unions is what they see on TV. If theres a strike here, theres a strike there -- they dont see, you know, all the -- the good that the union has done. Its just like a -- you know, you see what the bad teenagers do, but you dont see what the good teenagers do.

PEGGY: Mmhm. Thats right.

MARY: And you know, and they do -- they just -- they just print us as outlaws and hoodlums. And this fear in, you know -- inside the plant, you just have to work in it. And until the American public will wake up as to whats going on 01:18:00out there, and we can get some politicians that realize what workers in these plants had to go through, you know -- yall shouldnt have had to go through an election like yall went through.

PEGGY: Right.

MARY: They broke every law in the land --

DEAL: Indeed.

MARY: -- as far as the labor laws in this election, and they knew they were breaking them, but they knew that -- that when they were found guilty that all theyre going to have to do is to post a notice on the board saying, We broke the law. We did this. We did that. We need some teeth in the labor laws that says, Mr. Fitzgibbons, if you get up there and you break the law, youre going to pay a fine of $1 million. You know, and we need politicians thats willing to stand behind the workers in this country and see that we do get justice, you know, because thats all we want. Weve got an election going on right now, and you know, and -- and weve got a guy standing 01:19:00up there, saying this free trade bill is going to add jobs to this country. Well, we all know better.

PEGGY: Thats right.

MARY: And then, you know, they use that against the workers here in this country. Well, if you dont do what I want you to do, well move our plant to Mexico. And you know, they -- theyre just adding more fear to people and all, and I think, you know, that the American people are going to have to wake up as o what is actually really going on in these workplaces out here.

PEGGY: Thats where Im like L. Boyd. I thank God theres a few of us that will stand up and try to tell these people that are asleep, you know, what needs to be done.

MARY: Thats right.

PEGGY: Because if we dont get more of us, then were not going to get anywhere.

MARY: Thats right.

PEGGY: And weve already -- weve reverted back to the 50s.

MARY: (inaudible).

PEGGY: Were getting paid less than what we were then.

MARY: Were reverting back to the 30s.

PEGGY: Yeah.

MARY: Exactly what the people went out on the nationwide strike for in the 30s is exactly what is happening today.

PEGGY: But a company now that has progressed 60 years is paying us less than they were 20 years ago -- thats ridiculous.

MARY: Mm-hmm.


HELFAND: But is it just about pay?

PEGGY: No, its not about pay.


PEGGY: Its -- its about your -- your pride and your respect for yourself. You know, a person -- youve got to have respect to get up every morning. When you look in that mirror, youve got to respect that person thats looking back at you. And how some of these people can -- can just throw everything out the window and get up and look at that person every day and say, Oh, youre a great guy, is beyond me. Because if I dont stand up and speak for what I think is right, then obviously somebody killed Mary out here in the street and just walk on by and never say a word. You know? And its -- it gets down to that matter. This is the same thing. Theyre killing us, and theyre doing it on a slow, eight-hour, a 12-hour-a-day basis, but theyre doing it nevertheless. Murder is murder. It doesnt matter how you do it.

GEORGE STONEY: What about this 12-hour business. I thought wed look back, way back in the 20s, the -- certainly by 33, the 12-hour-day was ruled out 01:21:00in the mills, and it hasnt come back until recently. What about that?

PEGGY: Well, its come back in Fieldcrest, and not many of the people like it.

GEORGE STONEY: Just, say, The 12-hour day.

PEGGY: Mm-hmm. The 12-hour day has come back to Fieldcrest, and I think, eventually, theyll get it in all the plants. I dont think theyll -- theyll waste much time now.

DEAL: You know what the big advantage of the 12-hour shift is, is to cut down on overtime pay.

PEGGY: Absolutely.

DEAL: Uh, its so sad that, uh, these people are getting up towards my age -- 55-65 -- and they tell me, Weaving is a hard job. And thats the ones that seem to be the first to go on your 12-hour shifts. Well, I meet these people every day, and they tell me, L. Boyd, I dont think Im going to be able to make it. Im 65, so this 12-hour shifts killing me. I said, You know, if they loved us like they said j-- uh, Fitzgibbons says he loved me, why didnt he give me a choice to vote whether I wanted an eight-hour shift or a 12-hour shift? He said, L. Boyd, Im not going to be able to 01:22:00make it until Im 65. Im going to have to hang my job up. Thats what they want. They saving overtime pay, and thats the bottom line, is how we can cut our expenses, not what we can do for the man thats made us rich like we have made them.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, the big difference, as I see it -- [break in audio; break in video]

DEAL: -- you were talking about 12-hour shifts or it would give us a chance to vote, if it wasnt already there. It would give us a chance to vote down in our local union hall, not -- not at some national headquarters -- at our local union hall, number 36 here or whatever number well get, and say, Do you people want 12-hours or do you want eight-hours? Thats the American system. Its supposed to work like that.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, finally, for me, the big difference that I see between now and in the 30s was that back then, almost everybody had confidence that they 01:23:00had in Roosevelt and his administration, people who really cared about the working man. What have you got now?

MARY: Absolutely nothing.

PEGGY: Thats it.

DEAL: The only difference there that I see is that my dad told me that hes seen women go to the fences back in the 20s, now, and feed their babies through a fence because they wasnt allowed to go home and nurse their babies.

F1: Thats right.

DEAL: They were so pushed up on their job to get their quota met for the day that they just let them go to the fence, and thats the only thing that I see, sir, that hasnt went back to the 30s and 20s, is the breastfeeding through the fence. And that did happen.

F1: Yeah.

DEAL: And thats where the next step is, if we listen to Brother Fitzgibbons and his way of doing things.

HELFAND: Mary, you were saying that, um -- George, what was your -- your initial question?

GEORGE STONEY: Uh, a question about, uh, the administration.


MARY: The only time that we hear anything from the administration is at election time, just like now with Mr. Bush running, you know. Hes now concerned with jobs, but the way that -- in my opinion, the way that Mr. Bushs concerned with jobs is hes going to let these companies, you know -- they can move overseas and all and take peoples job, and its putting the American people more in this fear that theyre having to live with now, you know, because all you hear is, Your plant -- well close your plant. Its a fear that theyve -- these big corporations have over the workers. You know, You come in here, and you better do what I say do. You know, You better forget a union. You better forget having any rights whatsoever. Yeah, well put the 12-hour shifts in. Well do whatever we want to to yall people because if you dont let us, well take this plant, and well move it. And the -- the laws are such that these -- these giant corporations can do this, 01:25:00and not only the giant corporations. And you know, uh, and I feel sorry for the Mexican people, too, because our government and their government is exploiting them. And what its basically doing is is turning the American people -- they -- they dont want to show their anger at the bosses and the company, so theyre showing it at the -- the Mexican people when theyre being exploited too. Theyre down there treating them -- paying them 50 cents an hour. Theyre, you know -- theyre not giving them any rights whatsoever down there either. Theyre having to -- living in shantytowns, no water, no surge. Theyll go out and get a -- a -- a drum that theyve had chemicals in and use it for water and all to have these jobs here that -- our American companies 01:26:00are going down there, and -- and theyre depriving us, and theyre depriving these people too. And they can s-- they can see the -- the supervision that goes with them, they live on the American side of the border in these fine homes and drive over every morning. When they get through with the product, they can bring it back into this country, you know, and theyre making a huge profit. And the people of this, uh, the -- of America and Mexico are suffering. And how, you know, a man can stand up unless he lives in his little ga-- glass house up there, you know, and hes got no concept. And all hes thinking about is making his rich friends richer.

GEORGE STONEY: The strange things to me, though, is that in the last three summers, Ive found very, very few people who have any feeling of bitterness 01:27:00towards the people who own the industries and build these big houses they see around town. They may have anger ag-- at their secondhand, their supervisor, but it doesnt seem to go any further up.

MARY: Thats -- thats it. And see --

DEAL: Im just baffled by that.

MARY: -- as long as they can pit the American people against the Mexican people, you know -- yeah, weve got anger, but our anger should be at the ones causing it, not the ones -- you know, because theyre affected just like we are. The Mexican workers are, you know -- theyre being exploited just like we are. But instead of the American people, all you can hear is, The Mexicans are taking our jobs. Its not the Mexicans that are taking our job. Its these big corporations thats movingtheir plant across the border, and thats where the anger should be, and thats where the revolt should be, is against this. And the only way that, you know -- if the people will register 01:28:00and get out and vote, and vote, you know -- know what theyre voting for. Dont let Mr. Bush get on TV and say, This free trade bill is going to bring in jobs to this country, and believe the man. Study it, and then youll know. And, uh, place your anger on him.

PEGGY: Theyre leaving the people that are here from Mexico. Uh, even though they may live in shanties there, if you go around Kannapolis and look, theyre living in shanties here, because theyre living in mobile homes that dont have doors and windows on them. The flies are eating them up, or their children are -- are just mosquito-bitten to the word go. They dont have enough money, even though theyre working for Fieldcrest, to take the children to the doctor, or theyre not on the -- the insurance plans or something. You know, so they really havent gotten any better, but yet Fieldcrest will tell them, Well, if you vote for a union, then were going to deport you.

MARY: Mm-hmm. Theyre exploiting them here, too. Theyre using the Mexicans 01:29:00and any foreigners again the -- the American worker here in this plant, because when the people do come up here, they do think theyre better off than what they were, and -- and in most cases, they are. Theyre a lot better, even though they live --


MARY: -- in the conditions, but theyre still a lot better off than what they were in Mexico and -- and -- and, uh, Cambodia, you know, and all. And so, you know, then in -- in the plant, you know, these people will go in there, and they cant speak English -- a lot of them. And they, you know -- they want their family hired if they can get them over here, so the company uses that. You get out there. You work hard. You dont stop, you know, you show the other workers up. And then, when your brother comes up here, well hire him, your sister, so you know, were being exploited everywhere in the world.

PEGGY: Thats right.

HELFAND: It sounds like the way they used to get the workers from the mountains to come down to the mill villages.

MARY: Mmhm.

PEGGY: Uh-huh. Absolutely.

MARY: Thats exactly what its --

DEAL: The same tactic.

MARY: -- all it is, and this is going back, like you say. I mean, were not 01:30:00progressing in this country. Were regressing.

PEGGY: Were going backwards. Thats right.

MARY: You know, were going back to what caused the nationwide strike, you know.

PEGGY: Because there are still homes in this -- in this town right here that do not have running water, that do not have toilets.

DEAL: Absolutely.

MARY: But you know, the fear now is -- back then, you didnt have to worry about a company saying, Ill move your plant to Mexico if you dont do what I say. So they have got a, uh, greater weapon against the American worker nowadays than they did in the 30s.

HELFAND: But they could evict you back then, couldnt they?

PEGGY: Oh yeah.

MARY: Well, they could do that, yes, but at least you didnt have to worry that they would take this plant and say, Well move it over the border.

GEORGE STONEY: Wait a minute. Thats the way a lot of those plants got from the North down to the South.

PEGGY: Thats right.

MARY: Thats right.

GEORGE STONEY: They were running away from unions then.

MARY: Mm-hmm, thats --

GEORGE STONEY: So the same.

MARY: -- yeah, but it was in the same country.


PEGGY: And as this is what theyre saying, well, these smart Yankees came down to these dumb Southerners and put them to work. Now, were going to take it to the dumb Mexicans, and were going to turn it around on you.

MARY: You know, and it -- it really makes the Southern people mad, and Im a Southerner.

PEGGY: Absolutely.

MARY: You know, because theyve got us pictured. Your giant corporations have got as pictured as were still barefooted and pregnant. We have our outhouses and all this, you know. And then, when they come down here -- and were proud people, and we are hard-working people. We -- you know, weve got a lot of pride. We want to get out here and work and make a decent wage and all, and they play on that and all. They play, but they still -- in their mind, were still the old, ignorant Southerners that will work for nothing and --

PEGGY: And take anything you hand them.

MARY: -- and take anything you hand them. And we have got a forgiving nature. You know, I think it was showed in this campaign that -- Murdock get up there 01:32:00and give a speech saying, Give me one more chance. Two weeks later, he sells the plant. Then here, five years later, Mr. Fitzgibbons comes along. He gives basically the same speech. Give me another chance. And what Murdock says just flew out the window. Well, now, this is Mr. Fitzgibbons, you know. He seems like hes a nice man, and you know, thats -- thats -- thats a lot of our philosophy here. You know, you -- you forgive, but how much can we keep on forgiving?

DEAL: Well, five years ago, all we heard in this area here was imports of cloth was killing us. Oh, if our government didnt put a clamp and a ceiling on the imports of yardage of goods sent into this country, that the American people were going to lose our jobs. Well, what fascinates me is the policy that Fitzgibbons and Fieldcrest has got right now is worse than the import of cloth. They are importing people on green cards. I dont know -- Ive been told, 01:33:00but one Mexican -- that he bought his card. Whether thats true or not, I do not know. But what is the difference between taking my job with an import of people than an import of cloth? To me, its worse to bring an import of people here when Im at the unemployment office every week, and it breaks my heart to see that they hired 20 Mexicans last week and -- and when I was down there, and only about three true-blooded Americans. Im not against foreigners. I love any race of people. But I do think that charity begins at home. The Bible --

F1: Absolutely.

DEAL: -- teaches that. The Bible tells you that a nation divided shall fall. A house divided shall fall. In America today, you have 10 million families a year going under because the house is divided. What youre going to see in America is not America that got attacked by some Communist nation like China and went 01:34:00under. Youre attacked by your own government, allowing green card people to come in here and take your jobs and your kin peoples jobs and the people of your loved ones away from you and say, Were here to help.

HELFAND: L. Boyd, can you find a job?

DEAL: I have looked, and the -- the only jobs Im offered is minimum wage jobs. And I -- I told them that I was trying to get something closer to what I was used to. I cannot pay my bills on minimum wage, or I cant pay my bills on the unemployment salary. I am looking and seeking employment.


MARY: But you know, it -- let me go back. Im sorry to interrupt, but let me go back to what L. Boyd was saying. And see, you know, there is some resentment there --

PEGGY: Mm-hmm.

MARY: -- of the foreigners. But you know, thats what Im saying. The company is using this, and as long as you keep the people divided, that -- you 01:35:00know, theyre out there fussing while theyre, you know -- these Mexicans are doing this, or these Asians are doing this, you know, and all. Well, thats keeping the -- you know, its -- its part of the companys strategy. You know, Keep these people divided, and they fuel this resentment and all. And as long as you keep the people divided, then theyre going to leave us alone. We can do what we want to, to people.

GEORGE STONEY: Let me tell you two other big changes between now and -- and the 30 -- early 30s. One is the role of blacks in the unions here. They were hardly in the plants back then.


GEORGE STONEY: And the other is women leaders. Weve talked to a lot of women who were in the union back then, but the -- at best, they were the secrearies who did the typing.

F1: Yeah.


GEORGE STONEY: But they didnt -- if, uh -- they went out on the picket line, but they never made the speeches. They never -- talk about those two changes.

MARY: Well, Ill tell you the -- you know, the women -- and this is not putting L. Boyd and people like that down. But the majority of the outspoken people during this campaign here last year in Kannapolis was women.

DEAL: Yeah, I agree, 100 percent.

MARY: And they were -- they were single women like Peggy, you know, that didnt have a husband. You know, maybe they were widow women, divorcees with kids, and all. And you know, they had more guts than a lot of the men did, you know, to speak out.

DEAL: I agree 100 percent.

MARY: And all, and they had more to lose than a lot of these others. But I dont -- you know, its -- it seems like its been that way more and more and more, that the women are -- theyre the coming out and theyre going to be, you know -- theyre going to be heard now, you know? That this idea of 01:37:00keeping us in the kitchen is long past. You know, we can go to the kitchen, but theres other rooms beside the kitchen now.

PEGGY: Well, so many of them have to -- have to not only bring home the bacon, they have to cook it too.

MARY: Mm-hmm.

PEGGY: And so many of them are getting tired of that because the men come in, and theyve worked their eight-hour day, and they sit down, prop their feet up, and thats it.

DEAL: Yeah.

PEGGY: The community, the children, the -- the PTO or the union campaign or whatever is just something for you to go do, dear. You get involved if you want to, but Im going to sit here with my feet up. So I think the American woman has got to the point where she says, OK, fine. Im going to take the ball, and Im going to run with it.

HELFAND: Did your mama do that here?

PEGGY: Yeah.

HELFAND: Did she grow up here too?

PEGGY: Mm-hmm. She originally came from South Carolina, but she was a woman that spoke her terms too, and she taught us to do the same thing, that we knew what we were brought up with and we knew what we stood for. And Ive taught 01:38:00my children that way, and they do the same thing -- even my grandchildren do, because my grandchildren played an important part in this past campaign. They got out, and they handed out leaflets. One of my granddaughters wrote poems for the union, and you know, she wants to be a -- a lawyer when she gets grown, and shes working on that now. And I want to see her get these things done, but in order to do that, we need to instill in her that she has the ability to go forth and do whatever she wants to, that this is America. Were still the land of the free and the home of the brave.

MARY: Well, I came from a different background, you know, than that. And I -- my mother was the type of woman -- she stayed at home. She had eight kids, you know. And, um -- and she remembered the 30 strike, and that was always, you know -- and whenever Id say, Mother, Im going [phone ringing] out to try to organize, shed say, Youre going to get in trouble, because basically, [phone ringing] that was all she knew, you know. And she was a -- she was a good Southern lady, [phone ringing] but you know, you just -- you 01:39:00dont make waves.

GEORGE STONEY: Just a moment. I want you to repeat that because thats too good to miss. [break in audio; break in video] You were raised in a different tradition.

MARY: Yeah, I was raised in a different tradition. You know, like I said, my mother was a good Southern lady. You know, there was eight of us kids and all, and you didnt make waves. You know, you just -- you know, she -- basically, she didnt take that much, but you know, it was her idea of -- you forgive, and you go right on. And she remembered the 30 strike, you know, because in my home town, it was there too, you know. And, uh, she had a brother on the picket line and everything, and so then, when I got involved in the union and all, she just couldnt understand this at all. You know, she just -- and I could tell her I was going on -- working on a campaign to help organize another plant, and you know, her statement to me was, Mary, you know, youre going to get in trouble. Dont do that.

GEORGE STONEY: What town was that?


MARY: This was Rossville, Georgia. It was, uh, the, uh, hosiery mill there in this town, you know. And there was -- the National Guards was in there. There was a man killed. She knew him. And she remembered that her brother was out there, and her father was inside working. And, uh, this is a very small town, smaller than Kannapolis, so you know, it -- it was just in her mind that this was unions, you know. And -- and I would try to educate Mother that, you know -- about the union, and I think, you know, that she finally seen, before she passed away, that, you know, it wasnt -- the union wasnt this big, bad booger out there that was going to wreck your whole life, you know. Because she seen that -- that I was getting out there doing it and that nothing ever happened to me, which I think, basically, she wished I hadnt. But I think her idea of the union -- I think I changed it. And --


GEORGE STONEY: Now, going on to -- to the role of blacks in the union. You know, in the early 30s, very few people, uh, blacks worked in the mills. Those few who did belonged to one of the white supervisors literally al-- you know. They -- they were completely beholden to them.

PEGGY: Mm-hmm.

GEORGE STONEY: Its changed so much now.

MARY: Well, you know, Ive heard tales that -- that the Cannons would take some of the black women that they had here in the plant and take them to their home. They would babysit, you know, cook, and all for the Cannons and all. And you know, uh, the -- it has been a big change, because I remember when the first black woman that they hired came into my plant and all. They had men, but they were on the -- they cleaned the restrooms. They did this. You know, even the black men, the jobs, and then when the Civil Rights law was passed, and the first black woman, you know, came into my plant. And so, you know, basically, 01:42:00the blacks know, but I think, you know, it -- theyre forgetting a little bit that if it hadnt been for the unions helpin' fight their cause that they wouldnt be in the mill today, because union --

PEGGY: Well even here, in Fieldcrest, uh, back in the 80s and the 70s, uh, in the finishing departments, we only had black ladies then on the third shift. We didnt have them on the first and second.

MARY: Yeah.

PEGGY: Uh, it was strictly all white. And I mean, this has not been 20 years ago, you know. So they -- they were more rampant in the -- in the sew-- in the weaving and the spinning and things like that, but in the finishing departments, they didnt work.

MARY: But these companies would have never had black people in their plant.

PEGGY: Mm-mmm.

MARY: If they could have had (inaudible). And all --

PEGGY: All we had was on the cleanup crews.

MARY: -- that if it hadnt been for the Civil Rights movement, which the union was a big part of.

GEORGE STONEY: What about their role in the union now?

MARY: Their role in the union is, you know, whatever they want to make it. You 01:43:00know, basically, you know, uh -- I know, when I first got involved in the union, my company was telling the blacks that -- that we would make them have their own union hall. You know, theyd have to have their own officers and everything, so basically, they didnt want to go through that and all, but it was like anything else. We had to educate them. Look, hey, youre a part of us. This is what its all about. Youre a worker here, so lets -- you know, youre going -- you come to our union hall. You run for any office just like anybody else can. So its basically what they want to make it and all, you know. And they dont want to go back to the -- the Charlie Cannons and them taking them out of the mill, you know, and all, and taking them to their home and letting them babysit and all like that. They -- theyve -- theyve came a long way.

PEGGY: Absolutely. MARY: And they can go -- you know. But these companies here in the South will still try to pit the blacks and white against one another, just like they do the -- the -- the Mexicans or, you know, the Vietnamese or Cambodians. You know, to 01:44:00them, theyre going to use any tool that theyve got that they think they can use because there still is a lot of racism. And you know, and theyve going to -- theyre going to use it because if you keep people divided, then youve got them conquered.

PEGGY: Well, they tried to do that in our 91 campaign because of -- of using the films that they did, and most of the strikes, they would show the black people that were involved with them and make sure they were up front in the pictures on them.

MARY: Mm-hmm.

PEGGY: You know, so they could come back and say --

MARY: They tried --

PEGGY: -- Well, the black people in your department, theyre the one thats going to cause a strike.

MARY: Mm-hmm. And they go into the black communities, you know. Theyve got their own consultant firms, black consultant firms -- Brown and Associates -- that come in and, you know, they go to the black neighborhoods, you know, where, you know -- to the churches and all - and say, Look, you know, we want you to get on board with us. We want you to speak out, you know. And then 01:45:00-- and sometimes, itll work, you know. But in Kannapolis, during this election, it didnt work. So it couldnt but Ive -- Ive been on one campaign in Virginia where it worked great. You know, they did -- I mean, the black ministers really preached against the union, and um, and everything, you know. And, um, but here Kannapolis, it didnt work, because you know -- they know that usually, the blacks will vote for a union, so they have got to find their way of putting a stop to this.

GEORGE STONEY: Why -- why will the blacks --

MARY: Because the blacks know -- you know, they are better at -- at standing together.

PEGGY: Absolutely.

MARY: And they know that thats what a union is, is it -- people standing together and all.


DEAL: Certainly, the greatest thing I think is that the black churches not only preach the word of God and teach them the word of God -- they get together at their long meetings on Sunday and discuss the union. They discuss other things that can help the black people. They discuss where you can get welfare. They discuss where you get food stamps. They dont think its a sin, like a white person, to talk about this in the house of God, and they are really helping their people more than the white churches in Kannapolis will do. I went to preachers here and asked them, Well, how come you dont announce in the pulpit that, uh, we need a union here? They say, Oh, Brother Deal, you cant do that, said, They paved our parking lot, Brother Deal. And he said, Brother Deal, you cant get involved in that. You might divide the church, and then Id lose some members. And just think -- thats 10% here and 10% there. And so I seen what was really happening, and its a sin that its happened like that. But the black churches -- I thank God -- are telling the people the truth about not only the Bible, but the social issues of the day and the things that they can do to help the welfare of their people. 01:47:00Now, when I came to work in Fieldcr-- oh, in Cannon Mills in 1961, I had just got out of service. I went, and I couldnt believe it -- Colored Only bathroom, Colored, White -- I mean, White Person bathroom over here. And Im thinking, I just come out of the service. Everybody went in the same bathroom, you know. I go to the water fountain -- Colored Only. I go over here -- White Only water fountain. Im thinking, Man, if I hadnt have seen the difference, and people are all one family, I wouldnt believe whats happening here. And everybody -- every black man made only the same wage. In 1961, the black man was paid minimum wage. It didnt matter how smart, how much harder he worked than his friend over -- or his neighbor. He was suppressed down to minimum wage. OK, then, in 65, they said, Oh, were going to give you brothers a chance. They said, Ones that work a 01:48:00little harder and willing to produce, were going to put you on production over here. And Ive had them same brothers stand back and say, Boy, they really messed up, said, All us brothers were happy and enjoying life and sitting around telling jokes and -- and rattling our chains, but said, Now, that guy over there makes a dollar more in a day than I do, and it makes me mad. Now, Im telling it from the heart. Thats what happened. And they thought they wanted the same. They thought they wanted the same pay -- I mean more pay and all that. But then, they got to where they was kind of bickering at each other. They said, Well, John over kissed the boss man, and he got that job that pays a dollar more an hour than I make, and all that. So I seen a big change there, but I do think God that in the black churches here in Kannapolis they not only teach the word of God. They teach you how to help yourself and help your family.

MARY: Well, I think Martin Luther King, you know, was the biggest and all influence, and which I think a lot of the younger generations of the black are 01:49:00forgetting a lot of that. I think, you know, the parents arent -- you know, education, and I mean education in the home, you know. And, um, I wasnt educated in the home about a union. I got out and learned about it on my own, you know, but Ive got a son that -- my sons educated about the union, and I think that this is where a lot of its going to have to come in, you know, that -- that -- that people that are involved in unions are going to have to teach their children and, uh, what its all about. Its basically --

PEGGY: Well, their families are so much closer knit than the white people are anyway. And one thing -- when they -- when they get under oppression, the black people remember that oppression, and they keep talking it and keep talking it. They never let another generation forget where they were. But white people, when they come under oppression, it only last for a season, and then they forget about it. They dont -- they dont remember how hard it was for our mothers and fathers in the 30s to make a living. Um, when my mother went to work in 01:50:00-- f-- in Cannon Mills, she made 10 cent an hour, and she worked 10 hours a day.

DEAL: Yeah.

PEGGY: So she made one dollar a day, and she kept up seven children.

DEAL: Mm-hmm.

PEGGY: And was a widow. So, I mean, you know, we forget about that oppression that we were under, when we had ration stamps in the 40s. And I can remember many a time her having to take so many ration stamps to go get a bag of sugar, and we didnt dare waste that sugar because, if we did, she would beat the daylights out of us because it -- we couldnt get any more. And that had to do for everything that she cooked, when we had kerosene to, to cook the food with, because we had a four-burner kerosene stove. And some people today wouldnt even know what one looked like. But now, when my brother was sent out to get five gallons of kerosene, hed better not tarry around. Hed better come back with that five gallons of kerosene, because that cooked for us all week long and kept us warm, you know?

MARY: Mm-hmm.


HELFAND: Did your mother ever talk about how she dealt with problems in the mill, that she could talk back to her boss?

PEGGY: Well, now, like I said, she was an outspoken person. And when she had a problem, she went straight to her boss man and told him. And if he didnt do anything about it, she would tell him, All right, heres your job. Ill go home. Uh, for instance, they used to put the women to sweeping in the -- w-- in the spinning rooms, and thats where she worked -- the number one spinning. And if they came in and they didnt have enough work to, to spin all that night, then they would take certain women off and make them sweep that night. And she told them that she wasnt hired to sweep or -- she was hired to spin. So on those nights, she would ge -- walk back home, because that was after the, the bus had already run, and that was the only way you could get to work, was to either walk or c-- ride that bus.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, weve -- back in the 30, there seemed to be a good bit of what we now call sexual harassment. They hardly mentioned it back then.

PEGGY: Mm-hmm.


GEORGE STONEY: But we found in some court cases where they actually brought some supervisors up, uh, on charges.

PEGGY: Mm-hmm.

GEORGE STONEY: So we started asking other people, and a lot of people have said, yes, it did happen back there. Is that just an-- an-- a non-issue now?


PEGGY: No, I dont think so.


PEGGY: Uh-uh.

MARY: No way. It is still going on big time. And how -- and I guess as long as you have men and women working together, you know, and all, that its going to continue. But it -- its still a problem. As much of a problem -- probably more so -- and all, today, than it even was. And especially in a -- in a -- in a non-union plant. And now, because, like I say, women are -- here are -- like everything else, theyre afraid to speak out. You know, I had one woman to tell me that her supervisor -- the fixer wouldnt fix her machine. He told her -- he said, well, dont you think if youd go out with him --


DEAL: Mm-hmm.

MARY: -- that maybe youd get your s--

DEAL: I have known cases like that.

MARY: Your machine --

PEGGY: Yeah.

MARY: -- fixed. So, you know, and thats not the only example that --


MARY: -- Ive heard of here. You know, Ive of people quitting their jobs because of their supervisors. Because if they go higher up, supervisors stick together. And, you know -- and it wouldnt do -- the woman knew -- they know that its not gonna do them that much good to go higher up.


PEGGY: One case in point -- one case in point, in Fieldcrest, a lady that was timekeeper in gray goods, she kept having trouble before they put the cameras on top of the mill and everything so they could spy on the parking lots. Uh, she kept having trouble. One night, she came out and her seat covers was all slashed. Somebody slashed them with a knife. Next night she come out, two of her tires were slashed. And it was the boss man on second shift in the weave room that was doing it, simply because she would not go out with him.



GEORGE STONEY: Well, its interesting that you mentioned the cameras on the top of the mill looking down at the parking lot.

PEGGY: Mm-hmm.

GEORGE STONEY: In the 30s, they had machine guns up there. (laughs)

DEAL: Yeah.

PEGGY: Yeah, and the barbed wire. And barbed wire.

GEORGE STONEY: Now theyve got cameras.

DEAL: Thats --

MARY: And now theres all the cameras.

DEAL: Thats something (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).

MARY: Same --

DEAL: But you can kill a man with words and, uh, movies like, uh --

F1: Mm-hmm.

DEAL: -- they show up there before, uh, and during the election. You can kill a person with, uh, words.


DEAL: And you can kill them with, uh, showing them violence. And to me, that replaced the machine gun.

F1: Mm-hmm.

DEAL: And another thing that Ive noticed in the mill, talking about females, uh, Im glad we got good leaders in our union thats females. And I know for a fact, by being a supervisor, that Id start to put somebody on a job, they said, Hell, boy, dont put that man over there. They said, Thats a womans job. Saves a hell of a lot of work in there. (laughter) Said, said, Put a woman on that. In other words they the only ones thatll work that hard.

PEGGY: Thats right.


DEAL: Eight hours. Im not making that up, brother.

PEGGY: Exactly right.

DEAL: All Im gonna do is tell the truth, and the truth will set L. Boyd Deal free.

MARY: And, you know, like I say and all, it is amazing to and all that, that people do not realize. And maybe --

PEGGY: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).

MARY: -- you know, its just as, as bad in other industries, as what goes on in the textile industry. You know, other people that has never been associated with the textile industry dont know what the workers, you know... And even now, you can try to explain it to them -- the conditions in these plants and these textile plants is, is -- versus an automobile plant or something like that. And to these people, well, you know, you dont know what youre talking about. This is not true. You know, Ive got families that are -- that are -- one of -- you know, Ive got a brother, a supervisor. Ive got a brother that is a truck driver. And, you know, one of thems union and the other ones not, and youd still talk to both of them. And they have no idea. They think that theres laws out here, that these companies cant do 01:56:00this -- cant treat people the way that they do in these textile mills. They actually think that. And you say, They can. You know, these people have got nothing unless theyve got a union. Oh, you know, they can get them a lawyer and they... Well, who can afford to get a lawyer? You know and you would be surprised at the people here that think they can -- that, um, that company can do something to them. And they can go to the labor board and file charges against that company. And we all know thats not true nowadays. You know, you cant go. If youre trying to form a union, and Im not, you know, blaming the, the labor board. Im blaming the politicians that have, have hurt the workers through the laws.

PEGGY: Thats right. Theres just too much red tape.


MARY: You know, and all, because during the trial here, you know, the labor board has been fantastic.

DEAL: They have.

MARY: I have to say that, you know, and all. But, you know, you have people come in here and all, and I had a, a man that come in here today, 61 years old. A little 24-year-old supervisor slammed the door on his hand, like they broke his hand and all, and accused him of being asleep. And I had to tell the man, you know, You can call the labor board. Theyll tell you the same thing. You wasnt outspoken in the election. We cant prove, you know, that theyre doing this because of your union, because you were for the union. And Im sorry. All I can tell you to do is, youd better watch yourself. Because they will get rid of you. And this man is 61 years old. And, you know, its hard for other people to imagine this going.


MARY: This going on --



MARY: -- out here, but it does.

HELFAND: Um, Im wondering if you could, um -- the room looks kind of empty. I know its one of your last --

MARY: How much longer are we gonna go? (laughs)

GEORGE STONEY: Were just about through.

HELFAND: Five minutes. Thats it. OK.


DEAL: Well, let -- I, I hope this aint on there, but Id like to say this. The --

GEORGE STONEY: Dont say it if it -- because were -- we are --