Lonnie Tracey Interview 1

M1: I think it's rolling. Speed.

JUDITH HELFAND: OK. So what -- so, what was your job in the mill?

LONNIE TRACEY: I worked in the, uh, the shipping department. I loaded the trucks, shipped cloth, [pound?] cotton, weigh, stuff like that. I -- well, I didn't drive. I worked on the trucks. Ever -- every driver had -- it was two men to the truck. Driver and the helper. I helped men loading and (inaudible). I didn't drive.

HELFAND: Now, you worked in the yard, right?

TRACEY: In the yard, yeah. We'd go to the other mills, too. All the other two mills. [Castor?]. All of them. [Beans?] inside the mill. Take them to number two. Take some to number three. All like that. And then we'd go to number three, we'd haul cloth or cotton. From there the kind of cotton they run -- they run different cotton, they did. And we had some cotton that was 00:01:00number three, we had to go up and haul it down to number one, what we run, but didn't mill.

HELFAND: Now how many people and, you know, could you tell me -- stop for a sec -- can you tell me, you know, how many people -- I'll tell you when, OK? (laughter) All right. It takes me a second when I --

M1: You might want to get him to say --

HELFAND: OK. Yeah, could you say, you know, in my family, these are all the folks that worked in the mill.

TRACEY: Mm-hmm. Yeah. In my family, it was Sam, Ben, Joe, Tommy. All of us was working there. My mother, and my father, and myself. Everybody was working. Then I had two -- let's see, one -- two sisters, worked in the laundry. Everybody was working.

HELFAND: And what did everybody do in the mill? What were their jobs?

TRACEY: On the outside, I had two brothers work at the machine shop. They cleaned up and all of that stuff. You know, and then I worked on the trucks. Then I had, uh, my two sisters worked in the laundry. They pressed clothes, 00:02:00ironed, you know. They had big steam presses, they'd have like the thing and [that big cold runner?] and irons [about that?]. They had ironing boards. They done pressed. And then some of them -- I had a cousin and she and a white lady, they used to stamp, put stamps on the clothes. They had a wire thing -- made like a wire fence over there. They done all the stamping. The clothes would come in. And I had a brother-in-law, he run the washers, and the thing you call the wrangle, and dry cleaned, all that. Had all the machines over there. He done all that in the laundry. Now in the laundry, all that, all, it was mostly black, but white, and the boss -- the supervisor -- was white. And this white lady, [in the main mill?] it seemed like to me, the man's wife, she worked in 00:03:00there. But everything was run to black, but there's Mr. [Bill Nixon?], he was the boss man there. Mr. Ben Brian, he's the boss there. I know that was two, or all of them. [They were working?]. There was about 25 or 30 people, who worked in the laundry.

HELFAND: And you -- what did you -- and your daddy?

TRACEY: My -- my dad, he, uh, he ca-- he [towed?] the book. He second-hand, and, uh, he had a white [come?] over him, but my daddy kept a record of cloth, cotton, and all that stuff. All the cloth we haul, he'd help -- he'd help Mr. [Jess Demp?], Jesse -- Jesse Demp. We both did. But my daddy helped him out.

HELFAND: Now, where did all -- could you tell me, you know, in -- in -- in, you know, can you tell me, right -- you know, m -- m -- mention the name of the mill, and where we are in South Carolina, and, you know, whe-- you know. Tell 00:04:00me a little bit about, you know, the mill here, and where -- where -- where people lived --

TRACEY: Oh --

HELFAND: -- who worked for the mill.

TRACEY: Oh. Well I thought you -- where I lived?

HELFAND: Where you lived?

TRACEY: Yeah.

HELFAND: Where the white people lived?

TRACEY: Oh, the white people stayed up on the top, in the village. Mill village, like them. But I stayed down on the -- the river. Now I told you, the river runs about -- uh, about [for the middle of that house?]. But -- and I -- we all -- the coloreds stay down there. With some -- we had some (inaudible), they called that River Street. Up on then, you go on then across the bridge, another, uh, two more sets of houses. Two rows of them. Colored -- black was up there. And they called that [Five Oh Line?]. And then you -- they run -- all run in together.

HELFAND: Now, the mill company furnished houses for the white people and the black?

TRACEY: The white people and the black.

HELFAND: Could you -- could you -- could you say that? Could you say, you know,[break in video] the white families.

TRACEY: Yeah.

HELFAND: So, could you just explain that to me? Because we -- we don't know about that.

TRACEY: Well, let's see. The -- the white, and -- and the black, they didn't stay in the same -- well, not in the same building. They do now. Right now, they do.

HELFAND: But back then --

TRACEY: Back then, they had houses for the colored, a village for the colored, and then a village for the white. That's the way it was. Up at number three, number one, and number two. But the white -- they wasn't far away from here. Some of them in that house down there. But it -- but in a different village. You know...

HELFAND: Now, and so -- and so the company took the rent out of that how -- you know...

TRACEY: Yeah, they took your rent out. It all -- every -- every week. Man -- if a man had a car, he had to -- he had to pay rent for a car shed. You could get a car shed for 25 cents. A quarter for the shed, 75 cents for -- I believe 00:06:0075 cents -- yeah, for a house. 75 cents maybe -- and -- and -- and they was a dollar, a dollar and a quarter, I believe, for the six room house. The more rooms you had, you know, they charge a little bit more.

HELFAND: And everybody in your family worked in the mill.

TRACEY: Yes'm. And all your like, your power, come to take that out. They come, they furnish their own power. Their new power took over. New power took over. Yeah, it was out. And they put -- they furnished their own power. They had [electricians?] at the shop, go around, keep the firewood going, houses, and everything. They had carpenters, go around to the mill -- to the houses, they had carpenters keep the fireplaces, keep the houses up, [kindling?], 00:07:00(inaudible). All three mills. They had all that in one thing.

HELFAND: Now, so -- what now. And how did the -- how did the town, you know, think about cotton mill workers? Were cotton mill workers looked down upon? I know there's that term lint head.

TRACEY: Yeah. I mean, [it wasn't done much back in then much?]. The cotton mills, they -- there's one right out there. [Copley?] mill. I never did work in it, out there, but that's a long -- good long mill. It's gone too. Copley's out of mill. Lots of black people, yeah, but there ain't now. Most all of them dead.

HELFAND: Now, how many black people were working in --

TRACEY: In --

HELFAND: -- in the cotton mill back then, and what did they do?

TRACEY: You mean blacks?

HELFAND: Yeah.

TRACEY: Just outside work. Collect (inaudible), work on roads, and some of them cleaned out the (inaudible) wells all over the year. And they'd clean out -- had fellows to clean the well. They had farms. They had people stay in the 00:08:00farmhouses, too.

HELFAND: Now, but -- but in the mill, the jobs for the black people?

TRACEY: In -- in the mill, they didn't -- they didn't have none of that until late.

HELFAND: OK. So -- I didn't mean that. So, tell me, what were all the jobs that the -- that the black workers, men and women, did for the mill company.

TRACEY: Now, there wasn't any women, run -- didn't work around. But number -- just black men. Because women couldn't have done that work. Some of them was [baller, or firemen, in the ballroom?]. Some of them were truck drivers. And, let me see. Some of them, well, they just called outside hand labor, you know. Fixed roads and [throw out ditches?] and stuff like that. And then some of them farmed. Now that was -- that was more -- that was black too. They'd work at the mill, the time come to farm, they'd knock off and go do -- go back to the farm. They had nine farmhouses. They -- they had a lot of land.

HELFAND: Now, the outside workers, though, that you -- the people who worked in the yard?

TRACEY: Mm-hmm.

HELFAND: Tell me what that job was like.

TRACEY: Hmm. You mean what, uh, they done? And...

HELFAND: Yeah. And how hard it was.

TRACEY: Oh, hard? I don't know. I mean, some of us so hard -- so hard. You drove cloth. And some of that cloth needs -- you see these big transport trucks on the highway? Sometimes twelve -- we'd have twelve or fifteen of them to load. They'd line -- be on a line, [put me down?] in the street. Load one, load two, two pull out, two more back in. We had a great big concrete ramp up it. And they'd back -- and we had a cot-- we hauled the cloth out there and they'd have it all down the line, there were trucks. Standard, Miller, Johnson, Motorline and, like that.

HELFAND: And you were telling me before about your job.

TRACEY: Yeah, my --

HELFAND: When you -- when you first came to the -- and what -- what year did you first come?

TRACEY: Hmm. Well, I don't know. It was back, way back. I just can't tell when I did go. I was young. And I worked, I got old. Old.

HELFAND: Now how many hours was --

TRACEY: Oh, they did --

HELFAND: -- were they working, and it's was --

TRACEY: Was they working? Oh, goodness. You work a whole lot of hours, no money. So, you take stuff, would be up in the company stores for a day, they'd have a whole lot of that stuff be on a cash basis. You couldn't -- couldn't charge them. Some were -- but you didn't have no money to get it with. And it wasn't but a quarter, a dime, nickel. Right, and then, where you going to get the dime at? You didn't have it. Because you didn't own no money. Well, no. Some people didn't draw nothing, and yelled, and yelled. Mr. [Conworth?], he came and he kept that up. He'd say he wanted the people to draw their money.

HELFAND: I mean, sometimes people -- they -- they'd get their -- they'd get their ticket --

TRACEY: They got their -- they get the pay -- yeah. They get the paycheck. A brown envelope. And it had three zero's on it. That means there wasn't nothing in that check. That was a blank. Called a blank check. That's right. And if you'd drawed fifty cents, or anything, that was it. You -- you -- you'd -- you'd, uh, you'd go so long, if you didn't keep taking up. They'd let you -- if you took up more than, you know, what you owed, that just run your debt. That just run your bill further and further in the holes if you took up on that. If you'd make three or four days and take them up, why -- well, that just run you into holes. Make you -- there's some people that owed thousands of dollars. Five hundred. Maybe six hundred. All that that, you know, they're so far in debt. But all -- a lot of them got out -- most of them got out of debt when Mr. (inaudible)'s come in here. He let them pay two 00:12:00dol-- dollars, three dollars, maybe up to five dollars, like that, but that's the way he did it. And that's all they could get. And you give how much you owed. They check your -- what you -- they made, uh, set the [rule?] to take out of your check, that's all they could get. (inaudible) get that every week. And then people got out of debt. And a lot of them got out of debt, they didn't get back in no more. There was nine of us. Nine children. Six boys and three girls. My dad had nine of us. And one dime, he had [all of us to feed?]. I don't see how he did it.

HELFAND: And he worked in a cotton mill?

TRACEY: And he worked on the old -- the old [done?] nearby -- (inaudible) he -- he, uh, checked cloth, cotton, and stuff, he did. And they had men to work on 00:13:00the track. You know, the track keep -- the engine run on. Put in tires, and things like that.

HELFAND: Now, what kind of -- yeah.

M1: Can we hold on?

[break in video]

HELFAND: All right. Now you -- you feeling OK?

TRACEY: Mm-hmm.

HELFAND: Not nervous.

TRACEY: Oh no.

HELFAND: OK. Because I wouldn't want to make you nervous.

TRACEY: No. I ain't nervous.

HELFAND: All right. All right. Now, I want to talk about hours. Right? Back, before Roosevelt came in. How many hours was everyone working?

TRACEY: You mean what -- how many hours did they work?

HELFAND: Yeah, how many hours a day?

TRACEY: All day. I -- I can't tell you the exact amount, but it was a whole lot of them. You can just say ten, twelve, or thirteen hours. That's the way it was -- that's before Roose-- he's the one that cut the hours. That's -- before he come in there it was. You worked from sun-up to sun-down. That's the way you can say it. You may go down -- you may go to work in the -- you know, in the morning, and you may have to work until dark. That would 00:14:00mean, maybe twelve, fifteen hours a day sometimes. Well then my daddy, when he worked on down the -- with the shipping and the (inaudible) and that coal, canned coal, called down to the other mill, sometimes he -- I remember this is good -- sometimes he'd be at eleven o'clock at night getting off. And had to be back at eight o'clock the next morning. Eleven o'clock. Because the -- the -- that -- the car box -- the car with the coal in it, would jump the track so many times. They had to build up, and do it until they'd get it back on the track. And then they'd go slow, and sometimes that thing could jump three or four times, the car box, it would, before they'd get to the other mill with it.

HELFAND: And --

TRACEY: Then they'd take -- some more pine limbs -- uh, limbs out of a pine tree. Long, and then there'd be a man going along putting sand on the track, and they'd stick them along the thing, and it would -- it would keep it from being slick, keep the wheels from jumping off. All the way down the track. It 00:15:00was just hard.

HELFAND: So now, now. You -- you know, you don't want to move this too much. It makes a little noise, OK.

TRACEY: Mm.

HELFAND: But, uh, so, back then, when Hoover was in, it was the depression.

TRACEY: Mm-hmm.

HELFAND: When your daddy was working those long hours.

TRACEY: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what it was. Sure was.

HELFAND: OK. Can you talk about that? The depression, right here.

TRACEY: Yeah, about what happened, and all like that?

HELFAND: Well, if you just want to say -- you know, I mean, just -- here, you know -- here in --

F1: Just talk about the times. Tell us what the depression was like, you know?

HELFAND: People needing jobs, you say, more difficult --

TRACEY: Oh, jobs, there, yes. There wasn't any jobs. Pretty all -- just people that, there was no hiring.

HELFAND: So, you know what, even say -- why don't -- you could even say, you know, back in the early -- back in the early '30s, right around here --

TRACEY: Mm.

HELFAND: -- in the early '30s, before Roosevelt, when your daddy was working those long hours. What was that time like here in a cotton mill town like that?

TRACEY: You mean how hard? Or... It was real bad. Time was just hard. And you didn't know -- uh, you take [tailor made?] cigarettes, like what you buy now, people just couldn't buy them. They'd be in the store, but couldn't nobody buy them. Maybe the men that had jobs up above, but you take a man that had a job like my daddy and all the rest of the fellows working out there, they had smoked the stuff you call "Golden Grain." That's all you had when Hoover was out. Sure was. Golden grain. That's what they called it. And then they had it -- you'd go and get it, get your pack and you had (inaudible) to roll them. Roll your cigarette, and then you'd take something and you'd wind it up and wind that paper tight. Roll you so many out of a day, and put them in a pack.

HELFAND: Now how did the depression -- how did the depression affect the mill and the kind of job, you know -- and how much work people had?

TRACEY: Hmm, how much work they had to do?

HELFAND: Yeah.

TRACEY: Yeah, I don't know. I just don't know. They had so much. They just had to do what they put on. That's it. They come out of that, and their clothes stuck to them. Some of them, in the summertime. Some of them people, the men, (inaudible) beat them, told you, and you know, man, you had to work. Some people worked hard, hard. Some of them women come out of the mill, don't look like they'd be (inaudible) don't look like they could go. But they made it. Some way. It was hard -- it was hard times.

HELFAND: Now, before Roosevelt went in, people worked in -- inside the mill from twelve to twelve.

TRACEY: Oh. They worked from -- well they worked on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and Saturday, to twelve o'clock. And then if they had anything, a duty outside the mill, going to run to three o'clock. And they'd work until Saturday evening. But most of the time, they -- they -- 00:18:00they'd quit work at, uh, twelve o'clock. All right? We had a whis—whistle blow. Everybody'd know it was twelve o'clock. Every mill had a whistle. And then they'd pull that colored whistle, used to blow at twelve o'clock on Saturday for the mill [be turning out?]. Till the mill turned out, it's twelve o'clock, we had a whistle. All the way down to Glendale was the same way. We'd hear that and (inaudible).

HELFAND: Now. After Roosevelt, you know, there was that twelve hours, and then Roosevelt came in.

TRACEY: Oh, yeah, yeah.

HELFAND: Tell me what happened.

TRACEY: They just -- he just kept working at it and working it -- the thing just got to getting better. And you could tell it. And it wasn't too long that he --

HELFAND: OK. Why don't you tell me about the -- the chain -- you know, that -- that change in hours. Did it -- did -- do you remember? It was called the -- the National Recovery Act. How about this. What did you think -- what did everyone here think about President Roosevelt?

TRACEY: Oh. They loved him. They was glad when he come in there. They was glad. They were glad when he it. Them people seen a hard time before Roosevelt come in. Then when he died, people just cried all over the place. Hell. I told you about me out there on the bridge and seeing when it went through, and they had him that, uh, on that train. They had him in that coach.

HELFAND: Right. Do you -- can you tell me about the changes that came on when Roosevelt first got into office in '32?

TRACEY: Well...

HELFAND: Specifically for the cotton mill.

TRACEY: Oh, yeah, in the cotton mill. It wasn't -- it -- there wasn't no great big, but he -- he just kept working. Some changes. Every once in a while, you'd hear, we've made a change here and a change there. And he just got things to work, and (inaudible) all I can say. And he just got everything 00:20:00to working like he wanted.

HELFAND: Now -- now you told me that the wages went up, and the hours went down.

TRACEY: Oh, yes. He did -- he put everything on that -- he went on eight hours. Eight hours a day. Roosevelt did. But back when Hoover was in there, you worked from morning to night. You worked as long as they wanted you to work. If you didn't, you didn't have no job. And that was if they wanted to act that way about it. Sometimes they would.

HELFAND: Now, when they changed the hours, how did -- did that affect the black workers too?

TRACEY: Yeah, they was better. Yeah, it was better. And then they put this -- the other (inaudible) on there, Roosevelt. But that was gone. Then Roosevelt put -- yeah, that, uh, we had just the WPA and there was something else they put on. 00:21:00He just made changes every which way. This...as far as I could, you know, remember. He made it better.

HELFAND: Now, you started working -- you started working at the mill around that time, right?

TRACEY: Yes.

HELFAND: Around that time that Roosevelt came in?

TRACEY: Yeah, well, afterwards. Yes. I went -- I went to work. But all my people were working there. My oldest brother, my mother, daddy, all them was working there. But they didn't make no money. We had something to eat, something to wear. Wasn't many good shoes, but you had a shoelace. And they'd get leather, go to the store, they'd come to the store and get taxed. To fix your shoe, put on that shoelace, cut that trim, that leather out. To fix your shoes, you'd wear them shoes out -- ooh, for how long. That leather 00:22:00was tough. You couldn't buy more shoes. Didn't have no money.

HELFAND: Now when they put the hours in, did -- I know that they called it the -- the National Recovery Act, and it was going to be -- they were going to go on eight hours a day.

TRACEY: Mm-hmm.

HELFAND: And they were going to raise it to, I think thirty cents --

TRACEY: Thirty-something --

HELFAND: -- an hour.

TRACEY: Thirty-something cents an hour, because they wouldn't make it before. Fifteen, maybe twelve, twelve and a half. That's like that. They wasn't making no money, like you said. But thirty-something. It went up to that. And then it just went on up.

HELFAND: So, when they made those change -- did the -- did they put it -- when they -- when they made those -- those -- those new laws, the National Recovery Act and the Cotton Textile Code came in, they were going to change the way the cotton mill worked.

TRACEY: Yeah. They changed all of that.

HELFAND: Now, did -- did -- did all of -- did -- how did that affect the people on the outside? Did -- were they included in those changes?

TRACEY: Mm-hmm. Yeah they got more money, you know. The money raise, you know. Jobs got better. And all when Roosevelt got in. Everything got better. But it didn't get no better until he came in.

HELFAND: Now, did the mill -- did the mill, uh, go along with what Roosevelt said as -- for both the white workers and the black workers? Did they --

TRACEY: Now I -- I'm about to think so. Because there was no complaint. What he did -- I don't know what Roosevelt what did. Because everybody was liking the way he was doing and what he did when he got seated. When he got the chair.

HELFAND: Now, at the same -- at that time, he also -- he also, um, they made a law, Section 7A. Do you remember? That said people had the right to organize unions. That was --

TRACEY: Yeah, I remember something about that. (laughs) Yeah, I -- there's a whole lot of stuff they changed and a whole lot that there was a long time before they made a change. You know.

HELFAND: Now, when did they first bring in the union right here? You know, back then in '33?

TRACEY: Oh back around the mills?

HELFAND: Mm-hmm.

TRACEY: It was in the th-- thirties, I imagine. I don't know, maybe, but way on up higher, because I [stand by?] some other men. Earl Smith and some people. They had some fellows come around with that, you know, trying to get them to join the union, and get up a union. I don't know where the fellows come from. And then some fellows there met with them, some one, they'd meet, and then they finally got it. The region got the union to work. But they had to meet with, uh, Mr. [Converse?]. The union, you know. He agreed about it, I think he 00:25:00did. He had to. But everything they do, uh, he would know it. He'd meet with them sometimes. But -- to see what was going on. And then he'd tell them what he was going to do, and what he, you know, wasn't going to do.

HELFAND: Let's talk about the first time the union came in.

TRACEY: Oh, when they first came in? It was more white then than it was black. And the black (inaudible). It was more white then. Most of the whites was in it. When the union first started, there wasn't too many blacks. But they -- they -- they went to [John?] after they got it organized. But -- but most of the white workers was inside, in -- inside the mill. You know, they joined it. 00:26:00And it was a good while before the blacks could join. You know, some went in, but they joined it then.

HELFAND: They did join.

TRACEY: Yes, yes. And then they, uh, some of them let it go after years. They just didn't seem to think it was doing them no good, or something. I don't know. They got into it, but...then they couldn't leave. With them, and they, uh, and a lot of them fell out about that. A lot of them quit. But you couldn't just -- just quit, because they wouldn't quit taking that money out. You had to go to -- to the -- Mr. Converse. You know, he was the president. It was some kind of rule they had made, and you had to see, and he'd get you out of there, if you want. Because he'd be glad to get you out. If everyone wanted to get out of there, it was better. (laughs) Better for the company. (laughs) He -- he'd be glad. He'd get them out if he'd go 00:27:00to them. He could get you out of there. And then I did -- another thing they'd -- they'd go and they'd say, I dare you. I -- I don't know what they was [trying to help?]. They'd say I'd -- I'd -- I'd quit. I'd -- I wouldn't -- wouldn't be in it. Said it ain't no good for you.

F1: So the president of the mill would help the black workers get out of the union--

TRACEY: Get out of there.

F1: When they decided it wasn't--

TRACEY: That's right. You had --

F1: Can you talk about that? Say that, then?

TRACEY: You had to go, go to him before you could get out of there. If you had once joined, the union was going to keep taking that money out of your check, until you went to Mr. -- they'd have a meeting, and he'd get you out of it.

HELFAND: Now, let's go back earlier. Mr. Converse was the president after Mr. Evans.

TRACEY: After Mr. Evans.

HELFAND: Mr. Evans was the president in 1933, '34.

TRACEY: Yeah. That's right.

HELFAND: And that's the period of time that we really want to talk about. Is the union then. So, you -- you were telling me before that there was three -- 00:28:00there were three mills in this area.

TRACEY: Mm-hmm. Three mills. Number three, number two, number one. The mills, they were numbered.

HELFAND: And the way that they organized it, the way that they organized those mills, you said that there was a -- a leader from each one of --

TRACEY: Hm.

HELFAND: -- the mills?

TRACEY: Mm-hmm.

HELFAND: And then they formed one union.

TRACEY: Yes.

HELFAND: A white union.

TRACEY: There was just one union.

HELFAND: And then there was --

TRACEY: All of them then came in. All of them, they'd meet up at number -- they used to meet up at number three, and [out at the hole?]. And then they had a place over at Sloane's too, going to Glendale. He -- they rented a building from him. They had -- the man who run the big store that he had said was [part of?] the building. They rented that right in the front of the store for a long time. On the highway. They -- they'd have the meetings there.

HELFAND: Now. So -- and then there was -- and -- and what about the black workers? Where did they -- where did they meet, and how did they communicate with the white locals?

TRACEY: They would, uh, I'm trying to -- they had a place that's -- um, one I know. They had, uh, they'd meet in the black -- the leader, there was about two or three fellows was always -- they'd get they -- get it from the white, you know, the leaders. They -- they -- they'd have a meeting, and they'd tell them what happened, and what they did in the meeting, and what they're gonna do, and all that kind of stuff. Then they'd call, they'd have a meeting, just -- black have a meeting themselves. And them fellows would tell them about what all they said they was gonna do, and what would happen. That's just the way it went on.

F1: Now, didn't -- can you tell Judith about -- you had told me that the white men would come around and ask the black workers to sign their union cards. 00:30:00Could you tell us about that?

TRACEY: Oh. Bring the cards around -- union cards, yeah. You getting -- you gotta sign it. They'd come around and want you to sign -- sign, you know, sign up for the union. They'd find out you wasn't in it yet, they'd -- they'd just keep wearing you, wearing you down till you'd get it or not get it. (laughs) Ask you why you don't want to join it. They'd tell you how, you know, it was good for your benefits, and all that kind of stuff. They just wanted you to join.

HELFAND: Now, back in 1934, OK, could you -- do you remember how many of the people from the -- you know, was it -- was it all the black workers? Did they -- did they join up? The ones right here in your mill. Could you --

TRACEY: Most all the -- all three mills. They just, you know, went to join it. [All of them did?]. They had black at all three mills, and all of them just joined. They didn't at one time, they just kept joining until they got -- 00:31:00[might have been?] all of them was in at one -- one time. And before it was over, wasn't anybody much in it. They had their strike. And it went bust.

HELFAND: Now. You -- you recall the -- you were telling me before about the -- that -- that you -- you even remember the leader. The -- the black leaders in your local -- in the local union that you had.

TRACEY: Yeah. Them -- them three men that I was telling you. They old fellows. And there was some more, but I can't think who they was. You know. But I can't think who them was. There's some more, but number three mill.

HELFAND: So, could you -- could you describe that for me one more time, if you don't mind? Could you explain to me that, you know, that there were -- that the -- that there were three mills --

TRACEY: Mm-hmm.

HELFAND: -- right in this area, and they were all owned by the same person --

TRACEY: Owned by the same Clifton Manor factory.

HELFAND: OK. So if you could tell me there were three mills, and in each, you 00:32:00know, each mill had a group of, you know -- and each mill, you know, had a representative. A black representative and a white representative, who came together to lead the union.

TRACEY: The union?

HELFAND: Could you describe -- could you -- could you actually -- I'm only asking you to ask -- to -- like us -- because I'm just trying --

TRACEY: I know, I know.

HELFAND: -- to get this in my head, to understand how it worked.

TRACEY: I understand.

HELFAND: OK. So, when they decided to start to join -- when they decided to organize the union, they -- they had three separate mills.

TRACEY: Mm-hmm.

HELFAND: But they all joined the same.

TRACEY: Oh, all of them joined. It was the same union. All of them was under one union. All three mills -- all three mills were owned on the same company, and all three -- all of them owned the same, uh, you know, just one union. White and black. Wasn't no difference in the, you know, in the union. But 00:33:00there wasn't too many of us at the end.

HELFAND: Now. Where did the -- where did the black workers have their meeting?

TRACEY: I'm trying to think now, where did they ha-- they had -- it seemed like to me, they had it over at Converse. Over this mill over on the road, you know, going back to town, it's that mill up on the hill, (inaudible) it's a big mill, but -- and it had a great big hall out there on -- up there over the [pie?] station that night. And they used to have meetings in there, because then they had -- then they had those (inaudible), seemed like mill in one of the -- [old man Sloans'?] mill, and the white had theirs over there. In some of the mills. And then before it was over, the white and the black all met together. They'd come together in one, you know. They'd go to the same 00:34:00meeting. And everybody would hear what the union leaders would have to say. Sometimes -- now they had union -- head union leaders. I forget where they come from. They'd come in, they were the big men, and speak. And then they'd -- and these fellows, yeah, was [dying to overlook?] was over the head of the white union. Over the white and the colored -- oh, they'd come around and tell you they were going to have a -- a meeting, to -- to -- tonight, and then they were gonna be there and they was gonna tell you what's going on.

HELFAND: Now, what did you talk about when -- when the black workers would get together? I'm talking about that first, early union, that first one.

TRACEY. Mm.

HELFAND: When you had your meeting, what did you talk about?

TRACEY: They just talked about jobs, you know, what's going to happen, and what they would do, and what was gonna -- gonna happen later, and all that kind of stuff. You know how they talk about the -- what was going to do, and what they would do.

HELFAND: Now, the -- the black workers who were in your local union. Which parts -- which -- what -- what were the jobs that they had? Which part of the mill did they represent?

TRACEY: The black people?

HELFAND: Yeah. Who -- who were -- yeah. Who were in your local union. Which jobs did they have?

TRACEY: You mean what sort of jobs did they do?

HELFAND: Yeah.

TRACEY: In the union?

HELFAND: No. In the --

TRACEY: In the -- oh, for the company?

HELFAND: For the company. So I --

TRACEY: Oh, just like what, like I did. Just common labor work. It wasn't no -- wasn't no foreman. Wasn't no -- wasn't no black, uh, supervisor. Nothing like that back in the -- it was years to come before, uh, they hired black fellows. And then people went to work inside, before I left there. Way before. They had inside jobs, running machines, and all that. They run -- worked in the [cologne?] room, and the spinning room, and the card room, the 00:36:00weave shop. They had coloreds in all the rooms. All the -- ever -- in every room. They had all the coloreds that worked in different places. Up at number three they had them inside.

HELFAND: Can we stop for one second? You know what, would you -- what's so interesting to us --

TRACEY: Mm.

HELFAND: -- is that it was probably the cleaners and the people who worked in the opening room --

TRACEY: Mm-hmm.

HELFAND: -- and the people who drove the trucks --

TRACEY: Yeah.

HELFAND: -- and the people who, uh, carried the bales of cotton --

TRACEY: Yeah.

HELFAND: Those were the people that were in your local.

TRACEY: Yeah, that's right.

HELFAND: Whereas, the other pe-- in the white local, they were the weavers, and the --

TRACEY: We -- yeah, there was weavers. And the -- yeah.

HELFAND: OK, so that's what I'm -- so that's what I'm trying to get from you.

TRACEY: And they were loom fixers.

HELFAND: OK. Could you say -- could you say, now the white union -- the white local, this is who was in it. And then -- and then that, in my local, we did these jobs. After this car goes by. [break in video] All right.

TRACEY: What you -- now you want me to tell you what all we did. What we was doing. In -- inside the mill.

HELFAND: No, no. What I want to know is, I want to know what the people -- the jobs that the people had --

TRACEY: What were the jobs, what they --

HELFAND: -- who belonged to the black local union.

TRACEY: What sort of jobs did they have?

HELFAND: Yeah. Could you tell me --

TRACEY: Oh, they had --

HELFAND: -- now, now, we who belonged to the -- you know, the -- the men -- those of us who joined the black, you -- you know, our -- our union, these were the jobs that we did.

TRACEY: Well, I tell you. It wasn't -- wasn't nothing much but, uh, it was the opening room, and that -- that was black, and, uh, inside, in the opening room. That was black, and outside, the rest of it was just outside work. Wasn't no -- wasn't no inside at all. Number one, that's about the only inside job I know. Had three men working in the -- in the opening room, where they opened up all the cotton, and feed it and put it in the hoppers then, and 00:38:00they'd go through different rooms, you know, rolling them down to make cotton -- cot -- I mean cloth. Come out down the end, uh, the weave shop. And take a belt -- took, uh -- they'd take a roll of cloth, by 24 hours it would come out. And they'd go in at five thirty in the morning. And -- and -- and they said there's a great big long belt from down at the bottom, and they'd send it up on that belt, and the man would have to catch it. He'd come over and jump off on the floor, and they had to load them in a little truck, get it in, truck it back, had the whole floor full of it. We done made cloth. And then they can't get it, run it through the spread -- the folders, and things in the cloth room, and they had a thing, they had a big, you know, little threads and things out there, and they'd run it through all the machines, and they'd -- and then they'd rack it on the wagons. Do things like weighing, and then they'd push it over there to the building, where they baled it up [at the 00:39:00present?], and then they'd bale that cloth. They'd bale it up, and then when it come out of there, they'd bring it right to the [flagpole?], lie it on the great big -- (inaudible). Well we'd get it then, and carry it to the [wires?]. That's the way it happened.

HELFAND: So the -- so, people who belonged to your -- to your local union, they did --

TRACEY: Same thing. Well, about the same thing. Some of them was firemen, some of them was workers like I was. Just -- just different sides. They'd just common laborers and work. Just outside work. That's about all.

F1: Did you discuss (coughs) wanting more money like the white workers were doing in your meetings? What kind of stuff did you discuss?

TRACEY: Oh, they discussed the pay, but you -- you -- you didn't get the pay that they got, cause they run the machines and things. And they just didn't pay it.

F1: The black workers didn't think they should get more for their outside work?

TRACEY: Well, they wanted more, but we couldn't get it. (laughs) We just had to -- we just had to take what, you know, what they had set up. And, uh, you couldn't get no more unless, sometimes they come a little general raise. You know, they called it a general raise, that's so everybody would get it. Just a few cents, or something like that.

HELFAND: So, so, the leaders from your local would then go talk to the leaders from the white local?

TRACEY: Mm-hmm.

HELFAND: OK.

TRACEY: That's the way they'd do it.

HELFAND: Tell me that again.

TRACEY: Well, they'd tell them -- tell them what they did in the meeting and what -- what was said, and everything, what they was going to do.

F1: Can you make it clear that the white -- that the white union officials would tell the black leaders --

TRACEY: Yeah.

HELFAND: We don't know -- we don't know who they are.

TRACEY: Oh, that's right.

F1: Yeah, be specific for us, OK?

TRACEY: Mm-hmm. What they'd tell them?

HELFAND: No, no, you've got to -- you've got to --

M1: Do it like you're telling a story to somebody who knows nothing about it.

HELFAND: See, we don't know who they are.

TRACEY: I know. I know you don't. They -- they would tell them what -- what went on in -- in the meeting, and they took it that way, you see, they'd just take what they'd tell them. For a long time. But they -- they, uh, they made a union due, it would come out on -- they called it union dues. And they -- but they -- they talked to the -- the white leaders told them what to do, what happened in the meetings for a long, long time. And then the -- they quit that, and then they decided, oh, everybody met in the -- in the same building, and everybody knows what was going on. See. That's the way it was.

HELFAND: And the -- the way -- and ear-- in the early part, in 1933, '34, the -- the -- your black -- the black workers were then -- you would meet, and then you would tell the white workers -- the white leaders what you talked about?

TRACEY: The white leaders would get it first. And then they'd pass it on down to the black leaders. What happened. What -- you know, in the meeting. 00:42:00That's the way it was.

HELFAND: And would then would there be a black meeting, and then the black leaders would tell you all what was going on?

TRACEY: Mm-hmm yeah. Yeah.

HELFAND: OK. So go on and tell me that.

TRACEY: They didn't know what all they'd said and everything. They'd just tell different things to different -- the head union men told them, and what Mr. Converse said, what he could do, and what he wasn't going to do, and...

HELFAND: Now, what -- what -- do you know why --

TRACEY: And they couldn't pay, but they didn't (inaudible) the job, and [just all like that?].

HELFAND: Now, do you -- tell me -- do -- that -- that -- that big strike that took place in 1934.

TRACEY: Yeah, I remember that. That's when Mr. Evans was there.

HELFAND: Right, and that's the period of time we want to talk about. You know, we're not really interested in Mr. Converse.

TRACEY: Mm-hmm.

HELFAND: We're really interested in Mr. Evans' period of time. Do you know -- could you tell me about that -- the -- the general textile strike in '34?

TRACEY: I know when it was, but I don't know -- I can't go back to a whole lot of that stuff. But I know when it was, and -- and it wasn't -- it wasn't a long time strike, though. No. It wasn't as long as this last one. This last one, like, it lasted the whole year. But I know of when he -- he spoke twice to the people. They hadn't went back to work. But they went back the second time, I remember that, and he -- he had -- they had a meeting, he spoke out there in the yard.

F1: But could you go back and tell us about the -- the strike in '34? When they were only out for three weeks? Can you tell us about that time?

HELFAND: Do you know -- do you remember -- the -- the first strike. We're really not -- we -- we --

TRACEY: Mm.

HELFAND: -- we don't want to record right now about the second strike. The first one, in '34.

TRACEY: '34.

F1: It was a -- just a short time.

TRACEY: It was a short time, like you say. But I don't -- they come to some kind of agreement, but I don't know what it was. You know. I don't know 00:44:00what they -- what they agreed on. What they -- what the meetings and what they was going to do. You know, they went back to work. Wasn't nobody cutting loose from work. All of them worked. But this -- this other time, they cut off. I bet there was one hundred or two people never did get to go back to work.

HELFAND: Now you told me before that everybody -- that they shut down for three weeks, and that everybody came out on the picket line.

TRACEY: Oh yeah, they was on the picket -- every -- all --

HELFAND: The first strike. First strike.

TRACEY: All three mills had people on the gates, walking picket. And then they had -- let me see, the black people -- yeah. They had to go. Sure did. They had to go and then they had to -- they had to have a gate man, day and night. Some black, usually, kept the gate in. You know, they had to keep the gates closed, and all that stuff. Black -- and then black had to -- at all three 00:45:00mills, at the gates. They'd watch it.

HELFAND: This was the first strike.

TRACEY: Mm-hmm. They had men like this.

HELFAND: Do you remember -- you know this was -- that -- that -- that first strike was going on all over the country.

TRACEY: Mm.

HELFAND: Do you remember that?

TRACEY: I remember way back, too. It was way back. When -- when -- that first strike, when they struck down there, I just -- I don't - I don't know. I can't bring that back to me. Some of the things I knew, and some I didn't. To tell you the truth, I didn't...But I knew all who was there at that time. Both, you know, men over -- over the rooms. You know, had about -- had a -- had a supervisor there in the room, you know. But these old fellow's gone.

HELFAND: Now -- do you have a question?

F1: Yeah. Did the black -- do you remember -- did the black workers come out on strike with the white workers? Or did the black workers protect the mill?

TRACEY: Uh, did they, uh, come out?

F1: Like, the white workers went on -- on the picket lines.

TRACEY: When they went on the picket line?

F1: Did the black workers go out?

TRACEY: Oh, some of them -- some of them struck. Went out. And then some of them went back to work. And then some white went back work. Some of the white went back to work too. But they held them out there, and they just wouldn't -- but if they were to stay out there, they didn't have nothing to live on. They had to do something to make a living. And then they wouldn't hire you nowhere if you was on strike. You couldn't go nowhere and get no jobs. They'd ask you where you was from, and you had to tell them. They'd say, oh, we can't hire you. [That's terrible?] (laughs) You used to have to stand there and tell them that I had to do what you was going to do. I don't know.

F1: They would have blacklisted -- they were blacklisting you if you went on strike. Is that what --

TRACEY: What's that?

F1: Did you ever hear of the term of blacklisting? They'd put you on this list, and if -- if you went to another town, they'd ask you where you worked --

TRACEY: Oh yeah. From your job, yeah. They wouldn't give you no job. Mm-mm. No. You couldn't get a job if you was on the strike, like down that them there was going to Spartan mill, and the Beaumont around, like, you know, they wouldn't give you another job. So if you done walked out, they'll say you walked out on the company. That's what they called it. Walked out. And they wouldn't give you nothing.

HELFAND: Now, was that what happened in the first strike in 1934?

TRACEY: That first strike, all them people walked out. I was standing down there on the -- on the -- on the river, back of the mill then. They all walked out. For some reason. I don't know. And they stayed out for a good while. But they went back to work. Everybody. But both strikes they walked out. Then they tried to go Spartanburg. I don't -- I don't know what they were thinking but it sounds good. They went to Spartanburg and signed up for half, 00:48:00you know, pay. And you would tell that conversation. Often in time they would sign you up to get money, you know. Tried to get half of their pay. Didn't get nothing there because they walked out on the company. The company had to shut it down on them, but they could have drawed money. But they walked -- they -- they walked out on the company, and they didn't get nothing.

HELFAND: Can we stop for a second?

TRACEY: Because I wouldn't have – [break in video]a

HELFAND: We're not used to this weather, you know.

TRACEY: It's hot.

HELFAND: Well, if it's hot for you, imagine what it is for --

TRACEY: Mm.

HELFAND: OK. So, you were saying that you didn't go to these meetings. You were young.

TRACEY: No. I didn't go attend the union meetings. I just my -- my brother -- older brothers and my father, and my brother-in-law. And the thing is like, they were older people. You know, and I -- I was young. And they went to all -- they -- they had to do all that. Going to the meetings. I didn't go to 00:49:00none of them.

HELFAND: Yet you were working at the time.

TRACEY: I went to work at, oh, about fifteen years old. But, I was a little too young to go to work. They -- I think you had to be about sixteen or seventeen before there was work.

HELFAND: So what did you do?

TRACEY: Somebody -- the man to hire, they hired me, and they just put me in at, uh -- put me in. Set my age up. (laughs) They didn't have the bodies, and they wanted somebody to work. They'd do that. They could do it. So I went to work. It's a whole -- lots of them was underage and went to work. But when they left there, they was too old to work. Old people. Them got old.

HELFAND: So, the older heads went to these meet -- your -- your -- your daddy --

TRACEY: Mm-hmm.

HELFAND: -- he went to these meetings.

TRACEY: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

HELFAND: And did you remember --

TRACEY: Me and my other two brothers, we young. We wasn't -- wasn't long before we got up and we went to work.

HELFAND: Now, do you remember when -- did -- was -- did your father -- was your father in that strike? That -- the first strike?

TRACEY: Oh, yeah, he's in there. He was there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was working. You know, he worked there sixty-something years, my dad. And my oldest brother. They'd know all about it -- they worked there. Sam -- uh, Sam? -- yeah, he scrubbed. Scrubbed in the mill. They had scrubbers, scrubbed (inaudible), fill up the water buckets, and, you know, for fire. You know, they had buckets all down the wall. And -- and it had some kind of gauge on there, because you'd go by, you could tell. Look at the gauge and you could tell if the water was low in there. It had little stepladders built on the wall, 00:51:00you'd step up and grab another great big barrel, and fill them buckets up, and then jump down and keep just going down the line.

HELFAND: So when the strike was called, it was in September '34, that first strike. What did all the older -- what did the -- the -- the black workers do?

TRACEY: What you mean when they went back to work?

HELFAND: No. When the strike was -- that first strike --

TRACEY: Oh, what did they do for work? You know what they do when they got out of a job?

HELFAND: Well, what did they do on the -- for the strike? Did they go out on the picket line?

TRACEY: Yeah, they'd go out like that. They'd -- out on the -- they'd have the gate there, you see. All the picket -- uh, the people that was on the picket line was at the gate. Had tents. Had a great big tent, [outside the?] gate. That's where all the picket people -- people, just, you know. They didn't want -- wouldn't let people to go in there and go into work. That's what them tents was there for.

HELFAND: And did the black union -- did the -- did the black local, did they support this strike? Did they want to go out on strike?

TRACEY: Well, some of them I imagine did and some of them didn't. Because they wasn't -- they wasn't able to quit work. They didn't have no, you know, nothing to go on. They didn't have no -- nothing to go back on. Back in there, when that strike was on, didn't too many people have anything there. Wasn't any cars. You didn't see no cars much. No. I think -- let's say, what's all the cars (inaudible). They had an old [Michael Pontiac?] when he was there. Now that's way back. There wasn't no cars. You wouldn't see a half a dozen cars a day.

HELFAND: Now what did your daddy do back during that -- that -- that strike was for three weeks. Do you remember was -- did your daddy participate? Did your uncle -- did your brother-in-law? You said your brother-in-law, Dick Lang, was a leader --

TRACEY: Yeah, he worked down there -- he worked at the laundry. He run all the machines, washes, and kept them -- he worked on them when -- when they'd break down and do all that. And my daddy, he checked the -- he'd check, [I told you about?] check the cloth and stuff. And he'd check stuff in that the trucks bring in, and he'd check -- he'd check it off, and all that stuff.

HELFAND: Could you talk about what the black workers who were in the union did for the strike?

TRACEY: Before the strike?

HELFAND: No, no, no. Well -- during the strike.

F1: What did they do when they were on strike?

TRACEY: Huh?

HELFAND: What did they do when they do when they went out on strike? When the clo-- when the shut the mill down --

TRACEY: When they shut the mill down, what did they do?

HELFAND: Yeah.

TRACEY: Hmm. Some of them didn't do anything, but just, uh, just do whatever they could think of. You know, they'd dig up little jobs, something like that. I mean, but they -- they went back to work when the thing was over. And some of them was on this, uh, picket line stuff, you know. And the watchmen, 00:54:00they had to stay in there. They couldn't keep them out, because that was insurance. The insurance wouldn't allow it. You -- you -- they had to go there every day. There'd be -- let's say three on each shift at each mill. Three, six, nine, because there's three mills. And they had to go to work every day. Because if they hadn't -- if they'd have kept them out of there it wouldn't have been no insurance on none of the buildings. And they would have been dead -- the insurance would have went dead.

HELFAND: Now, Lonnie. So would you say -- there were -- there were three mills in this town.

TRACEY: Mm-hmm.

HELFAND: And they all shut down during the strike?

TRACEY: Mm-hmm. All three of the mills were shut down. Sure did. All of them were shut down. See they wouldn't shut one of them down, because all of them the same company. All of them the same union. And they all walked out together. That's the way it happened. All of them went out.

HELFAND: Now, do you -- do you recall hearing your daddy talk about this strike at that time?

TRACEY: Uh, he talked some about how hard, and this and that. It was way back. I couldn't.

HELFAND: Do you think it was -- was it safe for black workers to be out on a picket line in front of the mill?

TRACEY: Well, I don't know. Back in the -- it -- it's pretty tough. Something could have happened. It could have. Something could have happened. Like you said. But did -- did -- didn't nobody get hurt or nothing. That was a better -- was a quieter strike than -- than -- than the last one. Yeah. That was a quiet one. Didn't nobody burn up or nothing. No houses. Throwing rocks in your -- in the houses. Didn't nobody do that. Start fires or anything. Burn up people's cars, get the car, and (inaudible) why they'd cut your car to pieces. Knife or anything. Them strike -- people was out on strike.

HELFAND: Now I have a -- I have -- let me show you a piece of paper, and maybe you could tell me -- you can cut it.