Lloyd Kirby Interview 1

LLOYD KIRBY: …might be expecting -- I told her we were coming.

JUDITH HELFAND: You did.

KIRBY: Uh-huh.

HELFAND: OK.

KIRBY: Of course, now, if it's inconvenient, well --

HELFAND: No --

KIRBY: -- I can call and tell her later.

HELFAND: That we would come later?

KIRBY: Know it –

(break in video)

HELFAND: (inaudible), could describe that to us? Show me with your arm.

KIRBY: Well, beginning about that tree there, over -- over here where these trees are had to all be cleared out. (clears throat) But that wasn't the big job, the big job was building. We didn't dig the stumps up right then, we just cut the trees down.

HELFAND: Now -- you're at –- there were two mills and you were telling me 00:01:00before about how many people –- there were about a thousand employees?

KIRBY: Something like that, yeah.

HELFAND: And you got 500. Could you –- could you tell us that?

KIRBY: Yes, there's about 500 worked at each mill. That is for two shifts and part of the –- a part of the machinery was run three shifts but I think the most of it was run two.

HELFAND: And out of a thousand employees, could you tell me, you know, you had two mills and there were a thousand employees; 500 in each. How many were you able to get to join the local?

KIRBY: About half of them.

HELFAND: Could you tell me all of that?

KIRBY: Yes, something like 50% joined the union. I'm not exact on that.

HELFAND: And on Saturdays, was Saturdays when you're meeting would be?

KIRBY: Right, that's right.

HELFAND: So could you tell me about people walking in here to come to the hall?

KIRBY: Yes, I'd say about 80% of 'em would come up the road and about 20% would cross up here and come down the road, so we all got right here and we had our meeting just once a week but that's about –- about all I can say.

HELFAND: Well, I'm -- I'm -- I'm -- did you -- and what -- what were y'all trying to do with this union?

KIRBY: We were trying to get it to -- extended to where we'd have more power, more strength, and -- and if we'd had done that then probably the union would 00:03:00a lasted, would not have broken up later. So many peoples afraid they's going to be fired so they quit paying their dues and quit going to the meetings.

HELFAND: But that was -- that was already after the strike.

KIRBY: Yeah.

HELFAND: Do you remember -- when the strike call came, what -- what did your mill think about that?

KIRBY: Well, the people who were in the union was happy to see it and the rest of 'em didn't. They wanted to work on. So we were split on that score.

HELFAND: And what did you think about the strike?

KIRBY: Well, I was in it. I was one of 'em. Yeah, I supported it. And I hoped it would last but it finally gave out.

HELFAND: Why?

KIRBY: Well, the people quit coming, quit paying their dues.

HELFAND: Now that strike lasted three weeks, remember?

KIRBY: No, I don't remember how long. Sure don't. Seemed to me like it's longer than that. I believe ours was longer than that. All the mills didn't go back to work at the same time, so I think we were over a month.

F1: Mr. Kirby, why did you strike?

KIRBY: Well, we voted to raise the wages and cut down on the hours, at least I think that's what we struck on. See it -- we had been working 55 hours a week. You take a family where their both parents are working, they don't have time to do anything else. Just have a half a day a week and if they got children, they've got to take care of them given that time.

HELFAND: Well, Roosevelt came in and he changed those hours, didn't he?

KIRBY: Yes, he changed 'em.

HELFAND: Do you remember -- can you tell me about that?

KIRBY: Well, I think they changed the law, made it law, 40 hours was a standard work week. Anybody working over 40 hours, you get extra pay, 50% extra pay. So, 00:06:00naturally, they wouldn't want people working 55 hours and paying 50% for 15 hours.

F1: Do you remember what they called the stretch-out system? Did you have that problem in your mill?

KIRBY: Yes, we did. Well, they didn't stretch it, the loom fixers, they'd stretch the weavers and what they called a [battery?] fillers. And when I went to weaving here, they didn't have battery fillers, we filled our own battery and had 24 looms, and finally stretched out and that gave each -- each weaver 70 looms but they gave 'em -- give them a battery filler.

HELFAND: Do you remember when the NRA came in and the Textile Code came in? Um, do you -- do you -- and Section 7A was put in place, do you remember that?

KIRBY: Mmm, that's a little difficult.

HELFAND: OK.

KIRBY: I don't think I remember that.

F1: Now, that was like -- that was the official legislation, the official law that FDR passed so that everybody had the right to organize. That's what they (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) called.

KIRBY: Yes, I remember that part.

F1: Right. Well, that was just what it was called, Section 7A.

KIRBY: Uh-hum.

HELFAND: Could you tell us about that?

KIRBY: Yes, but the company didn't ever recognize that. They had to watch the employees they wanted to get rid of, and if you made the slightest mistake they'd fire 'em. Now, in my case, I had a loom that had been giving trouble 00:08:00for years and years. Of course, I hadn't been assigned that job but a little while, they kept me on the worst jobs they had, they moving me around. And there was one loom that had been giving trouble, I don't know how many years, at least four or five years, they'd fix it, it would break down, they'd fix it and it would break down. Well, I decided I'd go and tear that loom all the way down to the -- to the crankshaft and build it back up right of a good part, and I -- and it came stopping time before I got through. I didn't have it quite completed, and we -- we were supposed to leave a bobbin on the front of the loom as a signal that -- that it's being worked on. But somebody picked that bobbin 00:09:00up. I think it might have been the assistant overseer, I'm just guessing, and -- and the weaver started that loom up, and it wasn't ready to start, so they blamed me for it. So they let me go.

HELFAND: Were you still -- were you active in the union then?

KIRBY: Yes, I was.

HELFAND: I was under the impression that you -- after the strike --

F1: Do you think that they fired -- do you think that they were giving you such a hard time 'cause you were part of the union?

KIRBY: Yes, uh, I know that was it, because the other presidents and vice presidents were fired. They watched them 'til they found where they made little slight errors somewhere and let 'em go. They made a big thing out of it.

HELFAND: Now, this was before the strike in '34?

KIRBY: That -- that was before the strike and after the strike too. Soon as they 00:10:00started organizing they started tightening down.

HELFAND: Were you frightened?

KIRBY: Well, when I got to thinking about but I didn't keep it on my mind all the time. The loom (inaudible) it's -- it's really (inaudible).

M1: Yeah.

KIRBY: It's maintenance. [speaking in background]. Close by and it was --

HELFAND: Okay, you know, do me a favor. I know this is going to be a hard one. When I ask you a question, could you try to take a little bit of my question and put it in your answer?

KIRBY: Well, I'll --

HELFAND: Do you know what I mean?

KIRBY: -- I'll try.

HELFAND: OK, thanks.

KIRBY: Well, this was close by and available, so we took it.

HELFAND: Was it private? Would you say -- was that --

KIRBY: Yes, it was -- it was private before. The man that owned this land lived 00:11:00about 2 or 300 feet up the road. And he wasn't using this land for anything, so he just let us have it. He didn't work in the mill. He ran a ice plant for the company. The company had a ice plant down on -- near one of the mills. Back then the refrigerators were not in good yet, so everybody had a ice box. And everybody bought ice. They had a wagon -- well, they finally got a truck but when we moved here they had a wagon that hauled the ice around; two mules or two horses.

HELFAND: Would -- was he very -- was this iceman sympathetic? Would you say he was sympathetic to the union cause?

KIRBY: No, I don't know. I never did hear him say. I think he tried to be neu-- neutral. I believe it did. I never heard him say one way or the other, but 00:12:00I -- I -- I talked to him a good bit down at the ice plant. We usually got our ice when the wagon went around but sometimes there was nobody there to get it and I'd have to go down to the plant to pick it up, carry it by hand.

HELFAND: And -- what did you think when you first heard about the union starting up? Could you tell me that? What -- what -- first thought?

KIRBY: Well, I had no idea that we were going to start one. It didn't -- didn't seem logical to me because nobody there believed in it, at least they hadn't at that time. They thought that's something back North and it was not 00:13:00in the South. So I didn't take it seriously until some men began to group up and talk about the union, and then I begin thinking about it. So I begin to group up with 'em.

HELFAND: And did you help to start -- and then how did y'all do the organizing in -- here in -- in -- in Pacolet?

KIRBY: Well, we had nothing -- nothing unusual about that. We just had meetings and we talked a lot out of the union around in the homes and near the homes, trying to persuade people to come in. That was the biggest job, talking to people and then persuading them. But after we got up near 50% it got easier, but 00:14:00right at first it was awful difficult.

F1: Who taught y'all how to organize? Was there -- was there any United Textile Workers --

KIRBY: No, we didn't --

F1: -- organizer that came down or?

KIRBY: -- we didn't have anybody, any organizers come here. We just had to do it ourselves. We had nobody.

HELFAND: So, how did you learn?

KIRBY: Well, we got some papers, instructions and we, um, followed them as much as we could, and we learned as we went along.

HELFAND: Do you remember how you got a charter?

KIRBY: Uh, I don't remember much about that. Mr. Hughes is the one that handled that.

HELFAND: Now, did your local here have anything to do with other locals in other parts of South Carolina?

KIRBY: No, uh-um. No, we had all we could do here trying to get members. We didn't -- didn't go to other places. We had it pretty hard. Real hard at first.

HELFAND: What was hard?

KIRBY: Persuading people to join because most of 'em knew the company opposed it and they was afraid they'd lose their jobs. There's a lot of 'em that lost their jobs. It wasn't just the president and vice presidents, it was others too. My brother-in-law lost his job and he was a night watchman. Now, he 00:16:00never even work in the mill. That was my oldest brother-in-law. And he lost his job. He moved out on a farm but the weather didn't -- didn't help very much so he stayed out there about two or three years and then he got him a job somewhere else.

HELFAND: What did the NRA mean to you?

KIRBY: Oh, we liked it.

HELFAND: Can you say, "We liked the NRA," and go on from there?

KIRBY: Oh, yes, we -- we were really happy about the NRA coming in because we 00:17:00knew that it was intended to help us. So, we liked that. And if Roosevelt hadn't a supported us, we never would've had a union. Wouldn't have been a sign of one, because everybody believed him and wanted to support him, all except those who were afraid to.

HELFAND: What did you do about -- you okay?

GEORGE STOREY: Uh-huh.

HELFAND: Can you talk about that fear?

KIRBY: Yes, it -- it was -- it was real bad at first because --

F1: What was bad?

HELFAND: Can you -- yeah, you say -- talk about fear and name fear and then…

KIRBY: Yeah, the fear was prevalent just about everywhere because everybody realized they might be fired so everybody was real careful of what they did, and tried to not take any chances, but they usually could find something to fire 'em over, no matter how good they are.

HELFAND: And did that happen a lot?

KIRBY: Yeah.

HELFAND: Could you talk about that happening?

KIRBY: Yes, uh, one of the presidents was Mr. Hughes's son, and he was fired, and then Mr. Hughes was fired, and some of the other presidents were fired. I can't recall right off who they were.

HELFAND: So, when were you appointed? I mean, were you appointed president, vice president after a lot of them were fired or early on?

KIRBY: Well, they started firing 'em when we first started, a few, not many, but a few. And I believe I came -- became vice president while we still meeting in the hall, and, uh, there -- there was a time when I was undecided on whether I wanted to stay in the union or get out 'cause I -- I felt like I was gonna -- gonna get in trouble -- I felt some drops of rain. I felt two. (laughter) One of them hit me right here on the shoulder.

HELFAND: The sky is falling, Chicken Little. (break in video) Um, yeah, did you 00:20:00-- how did, um, how did [background speaking] yeah, the NRA. How did you -- how did you hear about the NRA at first?

KIRBY: Well --

HELFAND: Can you say the NRA?

KIRBY: It was through the newspapers. That was about our only -- only source at that time.

HELFAND: We were talking about people being frightened to -- to join. I'm under the impression that Section 7A meant that it was -- that the government guaranteed people protection.

KIRBY: Well --

HELFAND: Could you talk about that?

KIRBY: Well, the companies figured they could get around that.

HELFAND: Could you say that the companies figured that they could get around the 00:21:00National Recovery Act or the Textile Code, just throw that in?

KIRBY: Yes, I think so. They had the people figured --

HELFAND: The company?

KIRBY: The company figured that --

HELFAND: Can you start again? I'm sorry, I cut your words off.

KIRBY: Well, the company thought that they could get by with it, so they begin -- begin violates the NRA, and they got by with it too. Yeah. Now, there's some companies were prosecuted but the most of 'em weren't.

HELFAND: Why did they get around it? Why did they get by with it?

KIRBY: There was too much for -- for the help that the government had to -- to work -- work up all of them. They just couldn't get around to all of 'em. So, Pacolet was one that they -- they didn't ever get their agents here to 00:22:00check it up. So we didn't have anybody.

HELFAND: Was that one of the reasons why you went out on strike?

KIRBY: Well, it may have been but the main factors was we were wanting better wages and less hours.

HELFAND: Now, Mr. Kirby, it seems to me that actually with the NRA and the 40 hours, you got less hours --

KIRBY: Well --

HELFAND: -- and you got more wages.

KIRBY: We did later, yes.

HELFAND: Now, you did right after the -- the NRA went into effect, didn't you?

KIRBY: Yeah, that's right.

HELFAND: So if you were getting less hours and more wages, was -- and you had the right to organize -- let's put that together. Why do you think y'all had 00:23:00to go out on strike? I think you -- I think you nailed it before, that they were getting away with getting around.

KIRBY: Well, I don't remember too much details about that but it's because we wanted recognition, was one thing, we sure as didn't have any recognition. The company didn't -- wouldn't allow our leaders to talk to them about the problem, and -- and we were wanting several other things too. I'm trying to think of what they were but I can't right off hand.

HELFAND: Was one of the ways that the company was getting around was by stretching the jobs out?

KIRBY: Yes, that was -- that's true. That -- that started during the Depression.

HELFAND: Could ya -- could you talk about that? The - the stretch-out, but specifically around the stretch-out and how the company used it to get around the NRA.

KIRBY: Well, the weavers had 36 looms, that is most of them. Now to some where they were weaving heavier material they had less but -- no, that's 24 looms is what they had. Twenty-four looms to the weaver and they changed it to 70 and gave them battery fillers, and that cut out one person on each job.

(break in video)

HELFAND: How would the company get around the NRA regarding the stretch-out?

KIRBY: Well, they just -- because they never had any opposition. The government agencies had more than they could do so they never did come here, and the people here didn't know how -- how to make a case in court. Nobody knew how, so we just had to let it go.

F1: Did you feel let down by the National Union and the government because they didn't come in to help?

KIRBY: Well, they didn't come in and out here --

HELFAND: Could you say -- could you say, "The government didn't come in."

KIRBY: Yes, the government did not come in here because they didn't have 00:26:00enough agents to go around and we kept hoping some would come, but never did.

HELFAND: Did you write to them?

KIRBY: I would imagine Mr. Hughes did. I'm pretty sure he did but I - I couldn't say.

HELFAND: Did you know that southern textile workers were writing lots and lots of letters to the government to talk about that very issue?

KIRBY: No, those things were discussed at meetings and Mr. Hughes did all the writing.

HELFAND: Could you say that, "We discussed writing letters to the government at the meetings," and then who did the writing, could you say that?

KIRBY: Yes, these problems were discussed at the meetings and our secretary, Mr. Hughes, he -- he did the writing, so he handled all that and I don't know what he handled.

HELFAND: Did the local union tell the National Union what was going on here?

KIRBY: I don't know. I would imagine so. That would have been Mr. Hughes' job.

HELFAND: Do you remember getting -- you know, hearing from the United Textile Workers of America getting -- you said that you got a packet that told you how to organize.

KIRBY: Yes, we -- we got that but that's all --

F1: Can you tell us where you got that from?

HELFAND: Could you say, you know, "The United Textiles Workers of America sent us --

KIRBY: I don't know --

HELFAND: -- this packet."

KIRBY: I don't know where it came from. It might have been sent to us that way but I don't know.

HELFAND: Did you -- did you know that -- that -- that the general textile strike went on all over the country.

KIRBY: Yes, I knew that.

HELFAND: Could you talk about that?

KIRBY: Mainly the South. Well, I think most -- most mills in the South went on strike. Now there's a few that had no organization at all, it did not stop, 00:28:00but most of 'em did stop. And some of 'em started back up before there was a settlement but we finally got a little bit of adjustment so we started back up. Well, we were -- we were going to soon have to anyway because we had no income and money done run out so what we did to help some, we sent a truck down to the lower part of the state to buy a whole load of vegetables and bring 'em back up and divide among all the members. That helped a lot because they could get it cheap buying it direct from the farmer.

HELFAND: Where would you divvy it up? Up here?

KIRBY: No, it would be distributed at the homes. See they had a car or a pickup and went around and stopped at each house. That way they'd know when they got around because if people come in altogether, like anybody who wanted to could come in again, but when they stop at the houses and they know it's been taken care of.

HELFAND: Did you feel like you could -- during that strike, tell me about the picket line and how you all kept the organization going.

KIRBY: Well, we had different shifts for the picket line. I don't remember whether we was on eight hours or 10, but we had at least two shifts and maybe 00:30:00three, and most of us worked on the picket line some.

HELFAND: And what was that like?

KIRBY: What's that?

HELFAND: Tell me about the picket line.

KIRBY: Well, we would be stationed at the doors of the mills and there was some machinery was running anyway and the people going through. We didn't -- we didn't force anybody to stop but we -- we did stand in the door and they'd have to scrouch through but we didn't -- we didn't push anybody.

HELFAND: And what was the mill's response?

KIRBY: Well, they didn't like it.

HELFAND: Can you say, "The mill company didn't like it?"

KIRBY: No, the mill company sure didn't like it. It was -- they considered that awful.

HELFAND: And what did they do?

KIRBY: Well, they fired some of us and some of them they didn't. Some still worked on after it opened up, but there was a number of us that got fired.

HELFAND: Are you included in that group?

KIRBY: Yes, I was. I was along close to the front. There were some fired ahead of me but not many.

HELFAND: Why you?

KIRBY: Well, they just thought I was one of the leaders so they wanted to get rid of all the leaders.

HELFAND: How did you feel about that?

KIRBY: Well, I didn't feel good at all. Well, it's about 12 o'clock.

HELFAND: OK.

[No actual interview from 31:59 - 47:53, some singing and background conversations, driving in a car, and audio turned off]

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F2: [47:53] …living, he would garden both sides of the yard around the house.

KIRBY: Yeah, I tell -- I tell 'em about it.

F2: Did ya, oh, good.

HELFAND: So this is the house -- you tell me this is the house that you -- that you -- that you -- is this the house that y'all came to when you first moved here?

KIRBY: No, we -- we moved across the river to some old houses, they were two story and they done tore down most of 'em and put up new houses when we -- before we moved here. But we must've lived in that old house, I don't know how long, maybe almost a year. Then we moved down on Green Street down below there in a new house and we stayed there about -- about a year, I guess, then we moved over here.

HELFAND: Now -- we should get out of the sun. It's really bright.

KIRBY: One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine --

M1: Okay, that's good, thank you.

KIRBY: I was about to say zero.

HELFAND: Everything cool?

M1: Yeah, picking up speed.

KIRBY: Ready again?

HELFAND: Yeah, we're ready again. Oh, you don't have to count anymore.

KIRBY: Oh.

HELFAND: OK. You know, we were at -- can you -- this is the house you were living in while you were doing your organizing, is that right?

KIRBY: That's right.

HELFAND: Could you say that and talk about that?

F1: Tell us where we are.

KIRBY: Yes, I could, when he's ready.

M1: We're ready.

HELFAND: We're ready.

F1: We're ready.

HELFAND: You just look at me.

KIRBY: We -- we were living in this house, my father, my mother, my brothers and sisters when we were organizing the union in this village, and most of our neighbors also belonged to the union, and we had a good time at the meetings because we were all friends.

HELFAND: Did the rest of your -- could ya -- and look at me. Who in your family joined and how did -- and did you talk about it in the house?

KIRBY: Well, all of 'em joined down through, I believe, Louise, might have been the youngest one didn't, because the others were going to school. I think she was a member during the union days.

HELFAND: Well, we'll have to ask her.

KIRBY: Uh-huh.

HELFAND: (laughter) You getting a little sleepy?

KIRBY: No, not much.

HELFAND: Not much?

KIRBY: No.

HELFAND: OK. Can we cut.

(break in video)

HELFAND: So who in your family were in the union?

KIRBY: All of them. About all of them. All that was working before the union started.

HELFAND: Could you say that again? You know, tell us about your family, who was involved in the union and --

KIRBY: Oh, okay.

HELFAND: -- mention the union and mention your daddy.

KIRBY: Okay. It was my father, and my oldest sister, and myself, and my brother Clarence, and I think Pearl did also. As he might have been the last one. They were -- well, okay. So that was most of the family. The others were going to school.

HELFAND: Now, so did you talk union back in the house?

KIRBY: Yeah, we did.

HELFAND: Can you talk about that?

KIRBY: I don't remember much -- much about what was said because we were -- I guess we were near the first of the group, not the very first but we were early 00:52:00in the selection because we believed in President Roosevelt, and he advocated a union, so we really wanted one. We figured that's the thing this place needed.

HELFAND: Was your dad real involved? Papa?

KIRBY: Did he what?

HELFAND: Was your papa real involved?

KIRBY: Yes, he was involved.

HELFAND: Could you talk about your father's involvement a little?

KIRBY: Well, he was never an officer, just a member.

F2: (inaudible)

KIRBY: Yes, he did do -- he did do that.

HELFAND: Can you say, "My papa"?

KIRBY: Uh-hum. My papa build -- help build a union hall over on the hill.

HELFAND: Did your whole family join in in building the hall?

KIRBY: Um --

F2: Just members.

KIRBY: Just my father and me.

F2: And other members.

KIRBY: Well, the girls didn't --

F2: I said other members.

KIRBY: Oh, yeah. The men members.

HELFAND: You know, we found a letter that your dad wrote to a Hugh H. Johnson -- Hugh S. Johnson, the head of the National Recovery Act.

KIRBY: I remember that.

HELFAND: Your dad wrote this February 5, 1934.

KIRBY: I never knew that. General H. S. Johnson, National Recovery Administrator, Washington, D.C.

HELFAND: Would you want to read some of that to us?

KIRBY: Beg pardon?

HELFAND: Want to read some of that for us?

KIRBY: Well, I'm reading so slow, I'm having to spell some of the words --

F1: That's okay, take your time. Could you read a little out loud to us, I think some of your sisters here are dying to hear what your dad had to say?

KIRBY: Well, I've just like two more lines and I'll be through. He was talking about them speeding up the machines in the mill that would put more work 00:55:00on 'em and no more money.

HELFAND: Did you know that your -- can you hold for a second? Did you know that your daddy wrote a letter?

KIRBY: No, no.

HELFAND: What do you think about that?

KIRBY: Well, I am surprised and amazed at it. I had no idea that he'd wrote anybody.

HELFAND: Now that you read it, could you read it out loud?

KIRBY: Well, I'll try to. "General H.S. Johnson, National Recovery Administrator, Washington, D.C. The spinning department has been speeded up two times and are working the people to death. They have speeded it up the two times in the last month by putting larger pulleys on the driveshaft that were pulled by the motor. The waterwheel has been speeded up one time or more which would 00:56:00include most of the mill #3 and the hands on the mill number"-- I don't know whether it's two or what -- says that "it has been speeded up several times too, which do not doubt" -- and the rest of it blotted out.

HELFAND: Then he says, go on --