Sue Hill Interview 1

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JUDITH HELFAND: [03:52]-- what was your favorite horse and what was his name?


SUE HILL: [Sierra Mancha?]. We, uh, made a champion out of him, and he was a beautiful horse. Um, we --

(break in audio)

HELFAND: So we’re going to talk to you about his, um, pride in the strike, some, just about your uncle, Jess, and then the strike as you know it, and then some afterwards, and if you can remember, when I ask you a question, if you could somehow maybe incorporate -- OK. Um, could you tell me about what you know about your uncle Jess and his work as an organizer?

HILL: I only remember what Mom told me about Uncle Jess during the strike, and what was going on, and about him trying to organize the strike. Um, I remember 5:00growing up as him visiting, and, uh, very likeable person, had a great personality. Um, he seemed real concerned about our family, uh, coming to visit and, you know, seeing if we needed anything -- of course, he was having problems with his own family, um, he tried to organize a strike in Honea Path, and they fired him. He moved to Williamston, and they heard about him trying to organize a strike, they fired him in Williamston.

HELFAND: Can we stop for one second --

(break in audio)

HELFAND: Could you start again from “Uncle Jess tried to start a union in Honea Path”?

HILL: OK. Do I also need to say that he was my mother’s brother?

HELFAND: Yeah, you could say, you know, “I heard from Momma, Uncle Jess,” 6:00that kind of thing, so. Um, and could we (inaudible) closer for this. OK.

HILL: Uncle Jess, uh, was my mother’s brother, and I learned from her that he tried to start a union at the Chiquola mill in Honea Path, and, uh, some of the officials heard of this, at the talk, you know, going on, and he was fired. Um, he moved to Williamston and did the same thing, he tried to start some unions around some other mills, he left and went to Greenville and was blackballed from the plants in Greenville, and, uh, because of the union. And he was out of work 7:00quite a while, and he had a large family that he had to support, um. He never did get the union accomplished, uh, until -- I think, until the day he died, he tried to work for the union and get ’em and, you know, but he never did get anything accomplished. Um, he was a likeable man, everybody loved him, he was just wanting something better for the people that he worked with that were being treated so badly, and, uh, he was just trying more or less to get something for the people that he worked with, to better themselves.

M1: (inaudible)


HELFAND: I was just getting so into what you were saying, so I kept on leaning forward, but I can’t do that, so I won't. (laughter) OK. You started to talk -- when Uncle -- so could you talk about the trip -- the Honea Path and Chiquola mill, and, um, how they -- how you think they would, you know, what Uncle Jess was trying to do right there in Honea Path.

HILL: Well, the superintendent of the -- of Chiquola mill was also mayor of Honea Path, and he had the town really where he wanted it, sewed up. Um --

(break in audio)

HELFAND: -- if the union in Honea Path.


HILL: Uncle Jess had tried to organize a union to help the people. He was seeing how badly they were being treated, and he just wanted to do something for them, they were being paid low wages. Uh, they were just being treated so badly, and he had talked among some of the other men to try to get something to help everybody, but the superintendent of Chiquola mill was also mayor of Honea Path. He had the policemen, the town, the churches, the mill stores, everything, tied up to where no one could do anything, unless a union came in, and they fought that, they didn’t want anyone coming in to change what they 10:00had going, and they found out that he was trying to form a union, and they fired him. Did not tell him why, and insisted it wasn’t because he was trying to form a union, but tried to say it was because of other things. Uh, he left and went to Williamston and tried to form one, because they had the same conditions that Chiquola mill had, um, he was fired there. He moved on to Greenville, and, uh, tried to form some unions there in the mill that -- Brandon, in Greenville, uh. They blackballed him at all the mills, and he -- he did not get a union accomplished. But when the union, um, people were trying to go into the mills 11:00to -- well, they were really trying to keep them from going into the mills, reporting to work at Chiquola mill, um.

HELFAND: I’m gonna stop for one sec.


(break in audio)

HILL: After Uncle Jess left Chiquola, prior to the strike, the people, the men got together and were trying to go on with the union, trying to get something formed for the conditions that were going on, uh, the superintendent then, Beacham, heard about this. The morning that this was to happen, he placed men up in the windows, in the Chiquola mill, with guns, um, picket sticks, anything that had to fight with. The men that were trying to get the union started were 12:00trying to go in, and they started shooting out the mill windows. Um, they killed several, um. My daddy was not on the mill ground, he was across the street when they shot him. And the men that were on the mill ground, um, they were just shooting ’em down. Dan Beacham told ’em to kill everybody that was on the mill ground if they could. And they also had some type of gun up in the mill that if they had got it started -- they couldn’t get it to -- to go, it jammed on them, they would’ve probably killed a lot more than what they 13:00did, um. But when they started shooting, people just started running. They were running away from the mill, they shot them in the back, most of ’em, and my daddy was across the street, they shot him five times. Twice in the back, three in the front. They killed one man, shot him 10 times, turned him over and shot him again. So they were -- they were just determined to kill as many of them as they could. Um, two women got shot, there were just -- it was havoc, they were just running everywhere to try to get away from the bullets, and the policemen were involved -- in fact, my dad’s death certificate that he was shot by policemen, which is untrue, he wasn’t, he was shot from the mill 14:00window. Um, and they gave Momma the name of the men that shot him, and he said he had come to Momma and made it right, but he had never spoke to my mom. But you know, we have no way of knowing who really killed Daddy, um, it was just reports. Some said that he was killed because he was, um, Uncle Jess Mitchell’s brother-in-law, that they found out that he was his brother-in-law and they killed him. But, you know, we really don’t know. But I do know that it caused Mom to have a hard life, she had six children, um, one of the other men that got killed had six children, my husband’s uncle was killed, he had 15:00five children, and it just really made a hard life for all of us. Um. We -- Mom was not working at the time, um, they sent for her to come to work in the shirt plant, um, manufacturing place up town, and she went to work with them making $7 a week. Then, they had the trial at Chiquola, um, they sent for Mom to come to the trial, and it was just havoc, you know, they -- they really didn’t get the truth of what went on, or why the men were killed, why they were shot in the back while they were trying to get away. They, um, the only 16:00thing they offered Mom was a job. She got no money, she was offered a job that she would have a job the rest of her life, and could not be fired. They, um, wanted her to pay her back-rent, that she had been living in the home since Daddy got killed, and -- which she did, they sent her a letter to state that they wanted her to catch her rent up. But it was -- it was a hard life. But she kept us all together, and she worked, um. The oldest boys -- all of us worked in that mill at one time, because we had no other choice, there was -- 17:00you know, no other place in Honea Path to work in a plant that, you know, making that -- as much money as we could make. But at one time, all of us worked in that mill, uh, up until we left in ’58, in which I had a time leaving -- no one wanted me to leave, but, um, we moved, and the strike in Honea Path separated so many people. Just, half the town practically. People against people. They, um, some was for this -- the union, some was against, they thought it would bring more hardships into, um, Honea Path. The churches was 18:00separated, um, friends were separated, and to this day, don’t speak, um, they felt like -- that had that not happened, you know, that eventually the conditions would get better. But, um, it’s a small town, and people don’t forget very easy, it’s hard to forget because it’s taught from one generation to the next, you know? But, even the churches, they would not allow these men’s funerals to be preached in those churches, that they killed, because they had the churches tied up, um, there were around 10,000 came to those funerals, and they had ’em in open. I were only nine months old when 19:00Daddy got killed. The three youngest did not go to the funerals, the oldest ones went. But, um, I guess a lot of -- the way we survived, some mornings Mom would hear a knock on the door and there would be a box of groceries put on the door, uh, step. We never knew where they came from, and some said that it was the man that killed Daddy, but, um, it was rough -- it was, um -- to her, to raise six children, she had to be very hard on us, she had four boys, and in 20:00’em, on the mill hill, you know, it’s, uh, a lot different from most places. It’s, um, I can’t say that we didn’t have happy times, uh, we had a lot of enjoyment. She saw that we were takin’ care of, but it had to be hard on her. She, um, she worked third shift, and she went to work at that time at 10:00, and she, uh, was alone, she never remarried, she never did date again. She led a lonely life, uh, as, I’m sure, the rest of the, um, families did. I know that we were grateful to her because Ms. Patterson put her children in an 21:00orphanage, and, um, Mom toughed it out. But she -- you know, she had to lead a lonely life.

HELFAND: Let me ask you a question. You spoke about it before but, um, maybe you could just elaborate it a little more. How was it that -- that powers that be in Honea Path, that -- you know, could -- could enable such a thing to happen so that neighbors and brothers were shooting at brothers? Could you speak to that, specifically about the power? Just what you can imagine, or what you have heard.


HILL: Well, the people in Honea Path, they -- I guess they took sides, because the superintendent of the mill had these people on his side -- how, I don’t know. I know that he had the policemen, you know, where he run the police station, in other words, they did what he said. Um, I don’t know how they were talked in to -- [phone ringing]

(break in audio)

M1: Okay.

HILL: You know, my mom talked about the strike until she died. We were home alone, um, a lot of the time, and you never heard her complain, you never heard 23:00her have any hate whatsoever for these people, um, but she talked to me a lot. I was the last one at home, and she talked to me a lot about it. But she never complained of anything. She was lonely, and just needed to talk with someone, you know, but she didn’t want to talk to outsiders about it. Uncle Jess came to visit us a lot, and -- and I would, as a small girl, I would hear them talking, but, um, it was -- just what had happened, what he would have loved to accomplished at Chiquola and the other mills, and, uh, they would discuss things. Um, the man, the uncle that came to get my daddy that morning of the 24:00strike lived close by. He would come over sometime. Uh, he came and talked Daddy into going up to the mill grounds that morning, Daddy would not have been there had not been for him, and I think he felt guilty because he had took Daddy up to the mill, because he was not hurt in the strike, so they would come and talk to Mom, him and her sister would come and talk to Mom, a lot, and I would hear them talking as a little girl, and growing up, about what happened. About the conditions, um, about Dan Beacham, and, uh, some of the other families that 25:00lost their husband in the strike, but it was never the same town anymore. Um, you were kind of afraid to talk because you didn’t know who was for the union and who was against the union, so we pretty well, you know, stayed to ourself and never discussed it among other people. Um, I know my brothers grew up and had vowed to kill this man that they said killed Daddy, and my brothers had to grow up -- they were, um, I guess, you know, when you grow up like that, you 26:00fight for everything. And this man was terrified of my two oldest brothers. He would not speak to ’em, if they saw -- if he saw my brothers coming, he would cross the street. I had one brother that was really, really ill-tempered, I mean, he had really a bad temper, and, uh, he was terrified of him. But I remember Mom talking to them and saying, “No, this is not the way, you know, to do this.” But, um.

HELFAND: So, when people talked about this, what did they -- what it is that the town remembered, or the town talked about, or not talked about? What part of -- what part of this -- this story did people about and know, or not know? And could you mention, you know, the union and the strike?


HILL: Well, the -- the strike separated so many best friends, neighbors, um, the little communities that they lived in. Even people that went to church together quit going to church together, they wouldn’t speak. Um, some of them pulled out and started building new churches, and the ones that shot together are -- it just didn’t happen anymore. They, uh, they had a kind of a section they called New Town and Old Town. Most of the strikers lived on the New Town section, which were newer homes, um, some of them lived in Old Town -- very few, 28:00in the old homes. But, um, they were just not friends anymore, it just did something to that town that has never been replaced. The new generation that’s growing up don’t know a lot about the strike, or the union, you know, that was trying to form there, and since we moved -- we moved in 1958, um, we don’t go back anymore, um, to visit, and I really don’t know what’s going on now, or where, you know, the newer generation has forgotten about all this. At the time I moved, they hadn’t forgot it, because these parents kept, you 29:00know, talking to their children about it, but now there’s a newer generation, you know, it might’ve changed, it might not be the same place.

HELFAND: What did the parents say to their children, which part of the story did they tell?

HILL: They were a lot of children that was not allowed to play with other children because they -- it separated people so bad, um, they just wasn’t allowed to play together. The ones that were for the union and the ones that were against, um, but we stayed in little groups, you know, uh, and we had good times, uh, on the mill hill, we had played games -- not like children do now, but we played, um, different type games. And we were happy, uh, it was the hard 30:00life but we had good times too.

HELFAND: When you mention that, um, some of the children -- that children of some of the people for the strikers couldn’t play with the other children, if this persisted, did that mean that there was a feeling that people had that they wanted to maintain the desire to have a union, or they wanted to maintain that feeling of trying to make changes? I mean, if that went on, could you speak to that?

HILL: know, a lot of -- a lot of the people in Honea Path has -- was born there, they still live there, they work no where but Chiquola mill, um, they -- it’s like they were afraid to leave, afraid they couldn’t make a living if they left that mill. That was their only chance. And they were some 31:00good people, uh, honest people and hard working, but they were just afraid to break loose and try something else, you know. Um, but I remember growing up and Mom would talk to me, um, she was the one that wanted me to leave Honea Path, you know, to better myself. Uh, Jack and I married -- my husband and I married, we were young, and we left in ’58. We moved to Greenville, and he went to work for -- a neighbor of ours got him to -- to try the work that he were doing, and it was the best thing to ever happen to us because we finally got away from 32:00the mills. We found that they are another life, but the people in Honea Path, they -- they seemed satisfied, or either afraid to leave -- I don’t know what it was. They just did not want to leave their little town, um. They were friends going to church with friends, real religious people, uh, it was just a shame that this had to happen between friends.

M1: Do you mind if I ask you something?


M1: The question you were asking earlier, she was asking about, you know, you said that you talked to your mom a lot about the strike, and your mother told you stories about -- about the strike, but she was afraid to talk to -- about -- to talk about it to outsiders, even people in town, um, I think that’s really 33:00the question, um, Judith was asking -- tell us a little bit about that, uh, what -- what part of the story -- if, like in school, or in the public, if it would be to ever come up, it was a strike mentioned or it was a taboo, and if it did come up, what part of the story were people -- was it OK to tell, and what parts of it were not OK to tell?

HILL: Well, when we were coming, you know, up in school, or when we were attending school, I don’t ever, ever remember one time [phone ringing] (break in audio)

HILL: When I were attending school as a little girl, and then growing up, I never remember the strike being brought up in school. It was like, um, it was not to be mentioned, what happened. I never remember that being brought up. 34:00Um, I know Mom talked to me about it a lot, and she had asked me had this ever been discussed in school, and “No, it had not.” It was like the -- as if the teachers were told not to bring this up. I think they were just trying to keep it as quiet, and maybe get it settled, you know, among people, um, I think they were just trying to keep it as quiet as they could. They had had so much trouble, uh, a lot of the truth was not told at the trial, um, and that was the 35:00way -- no one was -- would let Mom or any of the wives testify as to what they knew. It was just as if it was an open and closed case. Um, they did not come to Momma and talk about it, or about what was to be said, or what went on. They just made her this offer of giving her a job, and that was it. It was not discussed “how are you going to raise your family, or do you need help,” there was no money involved. Just an offer of a job. But as far as I know, all the families stayed in Honea Path, and all the families -- most of them worked 36:00at Chiquola mill. It was just as if it was to be dropped, to have no more discussion about it. But, only thing that she received was that she would never be fired. Mom worked in that mill until she was 57, and, um, she had a heart attack.

M1: Let me ask you another thing about that, um, when she -- they -- you said the only thing they offered was this job for life, she couldn’t get fired, ever thought about did she ever say why she was given that offer at that particular time? I mean, it was only a few months earlier they tried to kick her out of her house.

HILL: I think it was a way of telling her there would be nothing else involved in this strike, that if she would take this offer, that that would be all she 37:00would get. And she had no other choice.

HELFAND: Could you say that again, say, you know, “the mill gave -- the same mill that -- that did this to my daddy, the only thing they offered my momma was a job and same” --

HILL: The Chiquola mill.

HELFAND: Yeah, could you start that, could you answer that again but put that up at the top so we know exactly what you’re referring to?

(break in audio)

M1: And go.

HILL: The Chiquola mill offered Mom a settlement -- if you call it a settlement -- of a job for life, that she would never be fired, and it was kind of like this is it, you take it or leave. Well, she had no other choice. She had six children, she had no other choice but to take it. She worked in that mill until 38:00she was 57, and had a slight heart attack anyway, she had to retire from the mill, but, um, Mom was a hard worker. She just wanted her children to stay together, and she did whatever she had to do it, uh, she worked on a third shift and slept in the daytime. My oldest sister took care of us, uh, but at one time in their lifetime or other, they’ve -- we’ve all worked in the mill, because we thought there were nothing else. We were like some of the other people in Honea Path, we was afraid to leave, we was afraid to try it, um, but it was -- 39:00it was a choice she had to take.

M1: I’m sorry, I just wanted to talk, because I think maybe this thing is -- I’m wondering if this is a sequence of events -- her husband’s killed, she gets a letter from Dan Beacham saying “you’re going to have to leave this house you’re gonna have” --— (break in audio)

HILL: Mill. The Chiquola mill just -- see, Mom had no education, um, she did not know where to turn to, who to talk to, about this, and when they came to her and said, “there are going to be a trial, we are going to make you an offer,” but they didn’t say what they were going to do, um, she didn’t know who to talk with. She didn’t know anyone with an education enough to 40:00talk to her about it, she, um, they wanted to know if she would be at the trial. She asked if she would testify, they said “no, you will say nothing.” And this is the choice she had. She knew that if she didn’t get a job, or better than what she was making, that she couldn’t keep her family together, so she went -- had to go along with whatever they said. That was the only choice she had. But then-- you know, when Dad had been in service, he had been in World War I, and when -- at some time in that point in growing up, they started giving 41:00the widows pensions. She got -- she was receiving a little check from Dad -- it was probably, when I were eight, that helped out some. The conditions that Chiquola did improve, somewhat after the strike, um, they were paying better wages, they were, um, the un-- the policemen, you know, was not as hard on the people as they, uh, were, um, the mill stores were -- seemed to be more lenient with people owing money, and conditions did improve somewhat. But it was still a hard life. People just seem to be working to keep their families together and 42:00to get over what they had just gone through.

HELFAND: And do you think -- you mentioned before about as you were growing up, strikers’ children couldn’t play with non-strikers’ children, does that mean that somewhere there was still a feeling amongst people that they wanted to maintain even the idea of a union? Could --

HILL: Most people, the -- as I mentioned, the New Town and the Old Town, they were kind of a little line that they drew. The -- especially the boys from Old Town were not to go over in New Town, vice versa, it was just kind of little war that they had going on, that, you know, you would get beat up if you come to my 43:00side of the town. Um, but they were some rough boys on the mill hill, so, it was, um, you know, and I don’t know whether it was just kind of a -- a teenage thing or where it was coming from, this strike, the feelings were coming from this strike. But I just -- I really don’t know. But in growing up, we -- my brothers and I, we just kind of stayed on our side of the town, and, uh, kind of had our own group. But you know, still we didn’t discuss the strike or how we were growing up. We thought in growing up that we were, you know, we wasn’t as poor as we were, but there were many a time that we didn’t have enough 44:00food, um. See, the mill also took care of the heating, they sold you wood, they sold your coal, and when you got it, it was took out of your money that you made in the mill. They had the water supply, they had everything, but in growing up, I have to say that there were good times too. They kept the houses up, they did all the repair work, um, if it was any consolation, to, you know, it all, they -- Christmas they gave out fruit, and brought fruit baskets around, um, and we could hardly wait, you know, but they -- I don’t know, as children, you know, 45:00when you’re growing up, you think that you’re all right, you don’t know that you don’t have what other children have. And my mom had -- did not have an education, we had a teacher that came around and taught the women on the mill hill, especially in the Old Town, had learned to read and write. And she taught my mom how to read and write. Um, see, she went to work when she was seven years old in the mill, seven years old. She could not reach the spinning frames, they made little boxes for her to stand on, that was before child labor. Some were eight, some were nine, Jack’s mother went to work when she was eight years old in the mill. And when you misbehave or didn’t do your work, 46:00they came to your parents to straighten you out, not to you. But, um, that’s all, you know, they had ever known.

HELFAND: So, did the town, would you say -- I mean, could we go back to the, um, to the -- to the issue of control, and I guess it’s a -- it’s just -- so -- a lot of people need to understand --

HILL: How that controlled everything.

HELFAND: -- well, yeah, but also how they controlled things to the point that this massacre could occur, and they could say, “no,” you know, “you’re not going to have a union, not in my town,” I mean, let’s just be blunt about it.


HILL: You know, I really don’t know how Mr. Beacham got control of everything. Um, it was as if he were -- I really don’t know. I don’t think anyone knew how he got control of everything. How he was superintendent, uh, the mayor, uh, so therefore, everything else was -- was tied up, he -- he had control of the mill stores, and this is where people had to go buy their things, their groceries, their clothes, um. They would be so heavily in debt, uh, they would owe their -- their whole paycheck to him from week to week. To the mill stores. Or for fuel, um, to heat their homes with. Everything fell back to the mill, 48:00Chiquola mill. The lifeline of everything that those people lived went back to the Chiquola mill.

HELFAND: And when they -- and when Uncle Jess and some others tried to organize a union, what did that -- what did that -- what do you think it meant for the workers, and what do you think it represented to the company?

HILL: Well, anything -- any talk between the men or to help improve the conditions would immediately get back to the superintendent of the mill, and he would stop it, one way or the other. Uh, I know Mom telling me, you know, things about “things are going to get better because the men are talking among 49:00themselves about getting better conditions.” Well, it would immediately get back to the superintendent of the mill, and you were fired, so they were scared to talk, they were scared to do anything. This is the only way they had to make a living to, um, to keep their families together. And when Uncle Jess tried to bring it up to several men, they said, “No,” you know, “We can’t jeopardize our families. We have no way of -- of making a living, and you know we will get fired if we bring this up.” He talked to the few that did go along with him, um, was in this strike. Mr. Yarbrough, um, Mr. Davis, Mr. 50:00Knight, several of them he had talked into trying, you know, to form this union. And when they fired Uncle Jess and he had to leave there, they kept talking about bringing this union in, and was trying to get something started, but it got back to the superintendent of the mill. And the morning that it was arranged for him to, um, the strike to start, he, um, it was to start at a certain hour, and it was talked among all them, some of the people, and Mom knew what was going on, Dad knew what was going on, and she begged Daddy not to go up there, she said, “Someone’s gonna get killed on those grounds if they try to go in that mill,” um, but see, they didn’t know these people were already in 51:00the mill and had the guns. No one knew that on the grounds. Until they started shooting. They were -- they were not going to let them come in that mill and take over. There were no way this man was giving that power up. And he would kill these people before he would let that happen. But it was just hush-hush talk, you know, among people beca-- they were afraid. They, um, they didn’t know where to go on with it, but it was so bad, ‘til some of these men said, “it’s got to come to an end. We got to get better conditions than what we 52:00have.” But the morning that it happened, um, I know I was sick and -- and Mom asked Dad not to go up, it was only a short distance from our home, um, he said he would be back, he was just going to be gone a few minutes, and she said he had left about 45 minutes when she heard the shooting start, and she knew what was going on. And someone come and told her that, uh, he had been killed, but they are a couple that still living in Honea Path that was on the grounds that happened, Mr. and Mrs. Atkins, um, she said when the shooting started, they saw everything that happened. When the shooting started, everybody just started 53:00running. She saw, um, Mr. Yarbrough get killed, and she saw several of ’em shot. They were trying to get away, she said her and her husband was trying to run and get away, and they saw the man roll Mr. Yarbrough over and shoot him again. Um, they -- I think they run to the house in front and tried to pull some things out, Momma said, that the lady had in the window, some clothes or something -- bed clothes hanging out, and, um, tried to help, she said they tried to do what they could, but the shooting was still going on. She saw Daddy laying on the sidewalk, and she -- she said it was just -- it was terrible. She 54:00couldn’t sleep for days and nights after that. She, um, she was the same -- these are the same people that went to our church, that I remember growing up. They’re [humble?], best people you would want to meet, just good people. But someone came by and she went up on the mill grounds with -- with her -- a friend of hers, and she said it was just something that she would never forget. But, um, you know, and growing up, I’ve growed up with this, I’ve, um, I’ve talked to some of the other kids in growing up, but like I said, it was not 55:00mentioned that much. It was just like everybody was trying to keep everything quiet. Um, maybe it was just the, you know, just trying to get away from the sadness or the -- what they had gone through, um, I haven’t talked with a lot of people in, you know, since we’ve been left Honea Path so long, I don’t talk to a lot of people anymore. I don’t know how it is there anymore. I have nephews and nieces that still, some of them, still work in that mill today, but I don’t talk with them that much. I just don’t see ’em that much, you know. Um, a lot of them have moved. But, um, all three of my brothers, my 56:00brother, uh, youngest, well, next to the youngest brother died in the mill in Green (inaudible), had a heart attack in the mill at 37. One of them -- they all three worked until up in their 40s, probably, in, uh -- it’s just something that, you know, it’s just like growing up again when you go back and see the mill, and talk with them, and some of the houses are not there anymore, they’re gone, torn down. But, uh, it’s still, you know, brings a lot of things back.

HELFAND: Do you -- [56:52]