Sue Hill Interview 2

 JUDITH HELFAND: OK. You said that you have nieces and nephews who work in the mill --

SUE HILL: Mm-hmm.

HELFAND: -- and I'm wondering if they know about this, and what part of the story do they know. Could you mention again "I still have nieces and nephews who work at the Chiquola Mill"?

HILL: I still have nieces and nephews that work at Chiquola Mill, but they're not as involved -- they don't know as much about the strike. Uh, it's not discussed that much anymore. You see, the ones that's working now, their parents, uh, some of them's deceased, uh, some of 'em never told their 00:01:00children about how bad it was, or about the strike, um, so they know nothing of this. And, as I said, it was not discussed that much. The strike was -- and, and myself, growing up, was not discussed among a lot of people. They had just as if they had just soon forget about it, or they didn't want any more problems. They had had, you know, enough. Uh, they know they were treated unfairly. They know they had bad living conditions. But they were just trying to make the best, and to raise their family.

HELFAND: What do you think, uh, are the implications of that kind of silence?

HILL: I don't know. I really, um... It was as if myself -- I didn't discuss it outside our home. Um, sometime to the point of not even between brothers and sisters, it was as if we were trying to forget it, you know, and maybe look for better times, or better living conditions, staying out of debt, uh, trying to raise your children. Uh, as I said, Mom, Mom did not discuss it outside of our home. She didn't, uh, want people to know -- she was proud. She was the cleanest woman I have ever saw in my life. We didn't have too 00:03:00much, but she was clean with what she had, and she s-- it seemed to -- she strived, you know, for that.

HELFAND: Do you think it's important that people know about this story, the union, the strike, the county?

HILL: You know, children that's growing up today, they don't seem to be interested in it, as if they didn't want to know what went on. Um, it's kind of like a war that you go through. You just kind of keep it to yourself. Um, they're not interested in, in what has happened in the past. And even my own grandchildren, they know how their grandfather, or their great-grandfather, died, but they don't ask questions. They... My girls and I talk about it 00:04:00sometime. Jackie's very interested in it, and, and so is Pat. But, um, I don't know where they think that I don't want to go through it again, or where, you know... I don't know. All I instilled in them was education, education. And when I moved from the mill [hill?], I got a lot of flak from my brothers and sisters that didn't want me to move, you know. They -- Greenville seemed like a long place away. Um, they didn't want me to move. And I wanted to get away from the mill. I wanted a better -- for my family. 00:05:00And they s-- you know, they sensed this, and we were a very close family. We had to be, growing up. We took care of each other. Um, and I think it was just they didn't want to see me leave.

HELFAND: One last question: do you know -- did you know that the strike was a general strike, was going on all over the country, not just local?

HILL: No, we did not know that. We thought it just came to our little community. I did not know that. Mom might have.

HELFAND: Will you just say what that was?

HILL: Um...

HELFAND: "I never knew -- I never heard it was a general strike, or..."

HILL: Well, we did not know that it was going on -- strikes were going on at other mills, or other towns, or other, you know... We didn't know this. Um, 00:06:00some of -- I'm sure they did. I'm sure Uncle Jess did. I'm sure the men did that participated in this, but as, you know, as children, we didn't know that there were other strikes at other mills. We only thought this was happening to Chiquola. Um, but maybe that's what started the men, or Uncle Jess, to even think, you know, that this could happen here and conditions would improve. If it had happened somewhere else, it could happen here, and we need to bring a union in. If the union is doing that much for the mills and the mill people, maybe they can get this mess straightened out and we could, you know, 00:07:00have better living conditions. But I don't know. I don't know where... I'm sure he, he was involved in it. He knew what was going on. And even coming to Greenville, Uncle Jess started, you know, uh, trying to form a union. And that's why he was blackballed from all of the cotton mills in Greenville. He was out of work a long time.

HELFAND: It's, uh, it's, it's, it's extraordinary that we -- on some level we could talk about people getting shot 'cause they wanted change, or people not -- or people having to leave town, or people getting blackballed. D-do you want to comment on that? Or what... If everybody who wants to see something get better... Could you ma-- maybe you could --

HILL: I --

M1: What kind of society is that, if -- when, when people that are trying to do something get fired, or get killed, or...?

HILL: Well, you know, when, when the strike happened at Honea Path, it scared everybody so bad until they were afraid to try anything else. They were t-- afraid to go against this man that was superintendent of the mill, because they was afraid that it would happen over again. When you stand on the mill ground, and you see people being shot down around you, it, it's, it's, you know -- it puts a fear into you that you don't want to try this again. And Mom told me that my dad had never discussed this with her, with exception of her telling him, "I don't want you to do this, because someone's going to get killed." When he walked up that hill and said that he was going no farther 00:09:00than the sidewalk, the mill has probably 40 feet of frontage in front of it, then the street, Chiquola Avenue, and then the sidewalk, so he was no more than, uh, 60 or 70 feet, at the most, from the mill. Um, they said that someone shot him from top of the mill, that one, so he was shot from a mill window. Then on his death certificate they said a policeman shot him on the ground. That was not so. He was shot in the back. It spun him around, and he was shot three times in the front. Um, and he never knew what hit him. But the rest of the 00:10:00men were shot on the mill ground, right in front of the mill, trying to get away.

HELFAND: And who was shooting from inside? Who were these people?

HILL: These men that Dan Beacham had brought in and put in the windows. Um, how he, how he did it, how he talked them into doing it, unless they were offered, uh, better jobs, or, uh... I know among the, the people said that he were paying the policemen off. Uh, they were receiving money from him. So, um, I don't know. I don't know how he got these people on his side and in that mill, know-- these were friends they were shooting at, uh, that had been raised together. And they was in the mill windows with guns, shooting 'em down.

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HELFAND: And the fact that they were employees, they weren't just strange men --

HILL: Mm-hmm.

HELFAND: -- that's understandable, so maybe.

HILL: They did bring s-- I think he did bring --

M1: That's what I said.

HELFAND: OK.

HILL: -- some men in, I think, from other places.

M1: OK.

HELFAND: Wait a second.

M1: Hold.

HELFAND: He's putting the, uh --

M1: Is this increase --

HELFAND: -- the painter...

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HELFAND: -- about Dan Beacham, um, how he got those men to do that, and who they were, and talked about they were people that they worked with, they were neighbors.

HILL: Airplane.

M1: Mm-hmm. [It's still there?].

HILL: You know...

HELFAND: Tell me when, (inaudible). (inaudible) circle or something.

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M1: It's gone.

HILL: You know, I don't know how Mr. Beacham got these men to do what he wanted. Um, he placed these men in the windows of the mill. They were firing on their neighbors, the people they had grown up with, had worked with. Um, I presume they were employees, all of 'em, of the mill, but I don't know how, unless he offered them better jobs, better positions in the mill, uh, money. I don't know. No one knew. But they were killing the people that they had grown up with, they had worked with. I don't know how they could've done 00:13:00that. They knew these people's families. They knew they had children. And they were a lot of talk between the people that, um, after this was o-- over, the terrible things that happened to some of those men. Um, one had cancer, had to take his legs off. One went insane. They had to keep him in a, a room, a padded room for the rest of his life. Um, it was just things that came up that they said that was coming from this strike.

M1: There's a lot of noise all of a sudden, and I don't know what that is.

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HELFAND: You know, I know that they, um, they fired and they blacklisted and they killed your father and these other men, but do you think that, that they completely and totally shut down people's, you know, desire for something different? Is that something that people (inaudible) think?

HILL: I don't think they ever completely kept hoping that a union would come in. Um, they were -- it just frightened 'em so much with what had already happened, um, the people at Chiquola was just afraid to try anything else. Um, they had saw so much happen, they -- I don't know. I really don't know. I 00:15:00know whatever they said or whatever they instilled in my mom, she had no desire, but -- nothing but to raise her family, get her family, you know, together, keep 'em together and raise them, and make a living. She had no desire to try anything else. I don't -- I, I can't speak for the other families. I know Mr. and Ms. Adkins were the two on the mill ground when it happened. He was one of the humblest men I had ever known, uh, and so was his wife. Just good people.

HELFAND: You'll be happy to know that we interviewed them, and that they're gonna be in this movie, also.

HILL: Really?

HELFAND: Yeah. And I have one thing that I want you to look at and read for --

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HILL: -- all this before. I don't know whether Mom received one or not. And that was from the textile union. No, I've, I've never saw this before. Um... If Mom got one, I had -- I don't know anything about it.

HELFAND: Could we read it?

HILL: It says, "To the families, officials, and members of Local 1808: Greetings. This is to impress the heartfelt sympathy from Local 1808 concerning the death of your fateful members and loved ones, and members of our organization: Lee Crawford, R. Thomas, Yarbrough, E.M. Knight, Ira Davis, 00:17:00Claude Cannon, and Maxie Paterson, who gave their lives that we might enjoy the future prosperity of our country. We also wish to im-- express to those in the hospital our sympathy, and wish for them a speedy recovery. May God's richest blessings rest upon each one of you." And it's signed, "Ms. Ella E. Fleming, Ms. Annabel Newborn, Ms. Nora Sanders, Ms. C.W. Moore," I think, "Corresponding Strike Committee, Secretary of Local 1808. Please give the 00:18:00members of each family a copy of this letter, Ella L. Fleming." I never saw this.

HELFAND: What do you think?

HILL: Well, I noticed that this was sent four days after the strike. I really know -- don't know. I can say this: it's more than the mill did. I wish I could've saw this. (crying) It might've helped our feelings. I don't think Mama received one of these. Surely she would've showed it to us. But 00:19:00it was much more than Dan Beacham did for us. He offered no consolation whatsoever. He was not sorry for what happened. He didn't know what my mom had to go through. He didn't know how lonely she was. And he didn't care. And at the mill, the men that was up in those windows that shot their neighbors 00:20:00and their fellow workers, I don't know what they had to go through, but I'm sure they've had a lot of sleepless nights, and they should have. Because it caused a lot of breakup of families, and friends. And I think they should've had a payback of some kind. I'm sure their families couldn't help what happened, and their children. But I hope they have thought about what they did. I hope they think about, or thought about, the, the hard times they put us through. But at least, you know, this is something. 'Cause we wouldn't 00:21:00have had to live like we did, had it not been -- if it hadn't been for Dan Beacham, and the people up in those windows killing those men. We wouldn't have had the hard life we had. But I'm glad you brought this. I hope my mom saw it. 'Cause no one knows what she went through but me, and her family. She always expected Daddy to come home. She never gave him up, that he was 00:22:00dead. She always looked for him to the day she died. And I'm sure she loved him very much. But we wasn't the only families that went through it. All of 'em did. All of 'em had a hard time. And I hope nothing ever happens like this again in that community, or that little town. But nothing would help us now. We're all... The two girls is all that's left in the family, and 00:23:00she's, uh, had a heart attack, so she's -- she don't know anything. I would've loved to saw her read this. She had a much harder life than I did.

HELFAND: Well, we'll give you a copy, OK?

HILL: OK. I would love one.

HELFAND: We'll make you a coup--

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HILL: It's -- you want to know who it's from?

HELFAND: Yeah.

HILL: Textile Union number 1808. And it's from Pelzer, South Carolina. I lived in Pelzer a while.

M1: Can you do that again? (inaudible) [the shot?].

HELFAND: All right. And he was just getting a picture of the paper. Could you, um, if you don't mind, could you, um, read the topic and just so, you know, United Textile Workers of America, local such-and-such, from Pelzer? As if 00:24:00you're starting it again.

HILL: OK. This is from Textile Union number 1808, from Pelzer, South Carolina. "To the families, officials, and members of Local 1808: Greetings."

HELFAND: (inaudible)...

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M1: OK.

HILL: This is from the Textile Union number 1808, Workers -- United Textile Workers of America, Pelzer, South Carolina, September 10th, 1934. "To the families, officials, and members of Local 1808: Greetings."

HELFAND: OK.

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HILL: -- uh, for Mr. Burgess. And he, um -- it was just more than Jack could take care of. It was time we had about, you know, a hundred and something head of cattle over there.

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HILL: On the sidewalk at Chiquola Mill where Daddy was killed, they said that a policeman shot him on the grounds, but from the angle of Daddy's shots, it had to come from a mill window. And where he was shot, blood run down, oh, 00:26:00approximately two to three feet. And when it rained, weather conditions, the s-- the stains would come back, would be a large brown shot, uh, uh, spot there. And we complained about it, because this is where we had to go to get groceries, and to do all our errands at town. And nobody would do anything about it until years later, probably I was around 10, 11. And they came and took those two sections up where Daddy's blood run, and replaced it, two new sections. But I know in the meantime my mom would not go that way. She would go -- if she had to go shopping -- and we walked to do everything, we had no car -- she would go all the way around behind the mill to keep from going up that 00:27:00way to see this place. But it was very disturbing, and, and not only we complained about it, a lot of the neighbors, you know, um, there were people constantly coming to look at it when it was raining, or wet weather. And, uh, we just wanted it removed, because it was a constant reminder every time we went up that way. But they did replace it, years later, after we went through all that. They replaced it, and put in new, new cement. But, uh, it was very disturbing to have to look at that.

HELFAND: Do you think when they replaced the cement that, um, I don't know, where they paving over a certain kind of history? What did they replace? I 00:28:00mean, in, in removing it, what did they also remove?

HILL: Well, you know, after all the years that we tried to get them to do this -- my brothers had tried to get 'em to do it, because they knew Mom didn't want to go by it -- uh, they, they didn't respond. And I really don't know why they waited so late, or why they, you know, replaced it. Um, they really didn't care about, you know, the, the history of it, I don't think, or, or anything. And that -- at that time, Mr. Beacham was no longer there, so somebody heard our request, I guess, and replaced it. I don't know.

F1: So after they replaced it, did your mom still -- would she still -- would she finally walk by there when they removed the sidewalk?

HILL: She did. She did. When, um... We were concerned about her going behind the mill to go to town, because it was, it was a grown up area, and, uh, wasn't very safe. And when they replaced this, then -- Mom didn't go to town very often, but when she did, she would go, uh, that way. But I'm sure she still had memories, you know, of even seeing the new sidewalk. She knew where Daddy fell.

HELFAND: I, I, I wonder -- I just, I just wonder if at the same time that you wanted them to replace the sidewalk, did you have some conflicted feelings about paving it over, too?

HILL: Not really. We just, um... You know, we, we thought about it so much, and it was like a dread feeling of going by to see this. It was like... I 00:30:00remember walking to school, um, after I started school in fourth grade. I had to go uptown, um, to school. And I saw this, you know --

HELFAND: Oh.

HILL: -- every morning, on the way to school, um, until I was 10, 11 years old. And you still, when you passed it, you thought about it, but you didn't have to see, you know, these marks. And in a, in a way it was a relief. And at least we got Mom from going behind the mill, (laughs) traveling behind the mill. But she would finally go that way when she had to go somewhere. And she would go in the lower gate at the mill to keep from passing that, because if she went in the upper gate she would have to pass it. So when she went to work, she 00:31:00would go in the lower gate. But I'm sure she still thought about it a lot. It's just something you don't... When you live it every day, it's something you don't get over. It's a constant reminder. Um, even though it's within your family, there's something that comes up that makes you remember. And before my brothers died, we had -- we would have family reunions, and usually the subject would come up just between us, but never outside of families. It was, you know -- it was just something that we kept to ourself.

HELFAND: Were you frightened when they removed the sidewalk, on some level, that as much as you wanted it that then people in the town would completely forget why that happened and what happened?

HILL: You know, they did not give us a warning that w-- they were going to replace it.

HELFAND: Could you say what "it" is?

HILL: Someone came and told us, "Have you been to town lately?" And, like, over a day or so, and, and we said no. And they said, "They finally took the cement up. They took -- they put down new cement." And, uh, my brother said, "I don't believe it. After all these years, we've been trying to get that removed, and didn't even tell us they were going to remove it." What they did with it, I don't know, but they just came in and, and removed it, put in new cement, and we didn't know that it was going to happen.

HELFAND: You're gonna hate me. I'm gonna ask you to tell the story one more time, a little condensed, and can you just say what "it" is? Because we, we -- if we just take a little piece, we won't know --

HILL: You don't know where I am, do you? (laughter)

HELFAND: Right now?

HILL: Yeah.

HELFAND: No. But I meant "it" as in, um, the, the place where your Daddy fell --

F1: Every time you refer to the sidewalk --

HELFAND: Yeah, we --

F1: -- we need you to say "the sidewalk" --

HELFAND: You kept, you know -- you've been saying "the place"...

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M1: And...

HELFAND: Look at me.

M1: Speed.

HILL: Many years later, after requesting so many years for the sidewalk where Daddy fell, for his -- the cement to be removed where his blood run down the sidewalk, they -- someone come and told us that they were removing it, and, uh, had removed it a day or so before we came and looked at it. I don't know what they did with the s-- with the sidewalk. All I know that -- you know, the brown spots were gone, and we really didn't have to look at it anymore. Uh, Mom started going to -- walking to town that way, and even though the memories were 00:34:00there, uh, it wasn't a constant reminder. We didn't have to look at the spots where Daddy bled. And I don't know, I don't know why they waited so long. Uh, I don't know whether it was, uh, they wanted to be reminded, you know, that it was there where he fell, or the strike, or what it was. Uh, they were trying to let it stay where it was to remind the people. I don't know. We don't know who removed it, and we don't know what they did with it. But we were glad that it was gone. Um, I think we had been reminded enough. And, 00:35:00uh, and Mom didn't have to look at it. That's all I can tell you. (laughter)

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M1: (inaudible) sound.

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