Myrtle Jones and Larry Blatney Interview

 LARRY BLATNEY: You want to hand me the letter? You took my copy.

HELFAND: I did take your copy and I brought a fresh copy.

M1: You're in.

HELFAND: Ok I'm in

BLATNEY: Oh, OK.

MYRTLE JONES: Stay back down. Go on back.

CHILD: I ain't going back.

JONES: I knew that was going to be the case.

BLATNEY: She wants to know what's going on. She's a little girl. It's interesting to her to find out. She'll have something to talk about.

HELFAND: Why don't we start with why we came, right?

BLATNEY: OK.

HELFAND: OK. Um, why don't you -- you know, just what you were doing before 00:01:00in the house when you showed Mrs. Jones the letter.

BLATNEY: Now?

HELFAND: Yeah.

BLATNEY: All right. Uh, I want you to look at this, Myrt, and see if this is your father's handwriting. This is a letter that was written to the president back in 1933. You should know whether that's his handwriting or not. He signed this letter with five other people.

JONES: Yes, this is my father's handwriting.

BLATNEY: And there's his signature there, Sam Witherspoon.

JONES: Yes, this is his.

BLATNEY: Well, you know, like I said earlier, I knew him, but I didn't know that he had wrote to the president at that time, but I wish I had known it. Maybe we could have had something that we could have talked about and maybe I'd know more about this than I do now. But I do remember him saying that he made 22 cents an hour. My dad worked in the mill and he made 22 cents an hour also. But I can remember even when my daddy got up to 32 cents an hour and 00:02:00it's amazing to me that how they raised a family and did the things they did with that 22 cents an hour, but somehow or other it happened. I guess it was the Lord with them because my father believed that the Lord was in charge and I guess your father probably did the same thing.

JONES: Yes, he raised a family of six and bought a home with 22 cent an hour.

HELFAND: OK, now I have a question. Now the first time -- now I know your father worked in the mill, but did you know about this letter?

JONES: No, I didn't know about the letter. My, uh, at all. But I am very excited that my dad wrote the president.

BLATNEY: You know, it's a good thing that this letter come up.

M1: I thought she was gonna go on (inaudible).

HELFAND: Ok

M1; Can we do that all again.

HELFAND: Now listen, before I gave you this letter, did you -- I mean, did you have any -- did you know anything about this? And could you just sort of talk about bringing this over here? I mean, the names that you saw.

BLATNEY: Yeah, you want me to start with that?

HELFAND: Yeah, let's just -- I mean, let's just start with the honest truth where --

BLATNEY: That's where I started when I first -- when Connie first gave me the letter. I read the letter and then I looked at the signatures. Immediately I recognized the name of Sam Witherspoon and Tom [Stroud?] because those were some people that I knew. I knew that Sam Witherspoon had died. I didn't know that Tom Stroud had died. But whenever I thought of Sam Witherspoon, I said he has some children that live down in the 73 area and I run down there and see if I can find any of them. So when I got to checking around, somebody said, well, Myrt lives down there. So I come down to see her. And when I showed her this 00:04:00letter I asked her if she knew anything about it. She said, "My dad wrote the president?"

JONES: Yes, I was very excited because I knew my daddy was a brave man, but I didn't know or have an idea that he had wrote the president. That is his handwriting.

HELFAND: You're sure?

JONES: I'm positive. There is Sam Witherspoon and that is his "W" and his "S". That is his handwriting.

BLATNEY: Well, you know, most of the men that worked in the Cannon Mills during that time they had what I called the menial jobs of opening the cotton bales and getting the cotton ready to run through a machine. That is a matter of fact, that's what my father did, but I don't know. To write the president, that's something that I never -- never would have even imagined that could 00:05:00have happened because nowadays you try to write the president you gotta go through the National Guard and everybody else in order to get a letter in. (laughs)

HELFAND: Could you just tell me something about -- could you -- could you -- could you tell me, yeah, my daddy worked in the mill and just tell me a little bit about what you know he did?

JONES: Yes, ready?

HELFAND: Yes.

JONES: My daddy worked in the mills over 40 years and he was a baler. He baled cotton and he often talked about his job. He was [interested?] in his job and he really did a job. He wasn't out it any time other than sickness or death and he had us to come along and do the things that he did. Don't be afraid of a job. Do the job and do it right. That was his motto. And daddy raised a 00:06:00family off of 22 cent an hour.

HELFAND: But, you know, at that time, do you know -- why don't you read that letter.

BLATNEY: All right. The letter says, "We are writing you in regard --" "Dear Mr. President. We are writing you in regards to our wages. The company is paying all the other people more money but us. We're only getting 22 cents an hour now. We cannot live at that and can you please help us some for we have asked for a raise but did not get it. They will not pay the colored people any more and we have a family to keep up. Thank you very much." And it's signed by six men: Louis Davis, James [Dry?], Sam Witherspoon, [Doc?] Jackson, Tom Stroud, and Paul [Means?]. Do you know any of these other men or have you ever heard of any of these other men?

JONES: I've heard tell of Paul Means and Mr. Tom Stroud. But to meet them, I 00:07:00never met 'em. But I've heard Daddy talk much about 'em.

BLATNEY: Well, I was fortunate to meet Tom Stroud through his daughter, Mildred. Who -- and both of them are dead now. Mildred has a daughter that moved away from the area and I can't find anybody who knows anything about her or where she might be now. But Tom and Mildred both are dead and that's the only people in that family I know. These other people I have -- I do not know, but I'm going to do all I can to try and find out something about them if I possibly can.

HELFAND: Well, listen, do you know, um, well, you were -- when this was written -- actually, why don't you hold that letter in your hand and I want you to -- I want you to read that letter. You say your daddy -- this is your daddy's handwriting? For the letter, too?

JONES: Yeah.

HELFAND: Tell me that and read that letter.

JONES: I guess I can read it without my glasses. You ready? This is my dad's handwriting. "Dear Mr. President, we are writing you in regards to our wages. The company is paying all of the other people more money but us. We are only getting 22 cent an hour now and we cannot live at that. And can you please help us for we have homes and families to raise. But didn't get it -- they will not pay us the colored people any more and we have families to keep up. Thank you very much." And then it says over and it has six other people: Louis Davis, James Dry, Sam Witherspoon, Doc Jackson, Tom Stroud, and Paul Means.

HELFAND: What do you think when you look at that?

JONES: Well, I think it's amazing because, uh, you can hardly get a letter to the president nowadays, and back then, I don't know how in the world it got there. It's just amazing that it reached the president, this. And Roosevelt was president at the time. And so, that's been some years ago.

BLATNEY: That was a little before your time, too, Myrtle, because at that time I was only three years old and I'm a little older than you are, so that was before your time, and President Roosevelt had just been made the president in 1932. He became president in 1932 and he started a new era where he had made some new rules and new regulations where people working would get more money and that's what I suppose all of this letter was about, wondering why that the 00:10:00blacks weren't included in the new job plan because I think then the black workers were working ten to 12 hours a day and what they had done, they had cut everybody down to an eight hour day and I think that the blacks were still doing those long hours and getting very little pay. So, it was before your time, but I'm sure back then it was a struggle. I don't know, I would just think it would be an awful struggle on 22 cents an hour. I just can't imagine that.

HELFAND: What do you -- I mean, did -- your fath -- I mean, did your father ever talk to you about his job, I mean, in particularly in terms of -- I mean, I know that Cannon Mills and Concord was a -- was a real mill town. But to write a letter like that, what does that mean?

JONES: Well, it meant – I'm sweating.

HELFAND: Could you -- you know, hold that letter for a second. I mean, and you could -- you don't have to move it a whole lot around, but I'm just -- I mean, think about what it means to, um, to write a letter of protest around Cannon Mills -- about Cannon Mills in 1933.

JONES: Well, I think he -- he was eager to work, but he wanted more money because he wanted his family to have the best and he knew he couldn't do it without a little more money and when he would perform in the job and I think he just had, um, just enough, um, [smart?] to, um, just write the president and ask 00:12:00the president -- to tell the president what it was all about, you know, and how he felt about his job.

HELFAND: But he signed his name and so did these other men.

JONES: Well, that was showing that they wasn't afraid. That's all I can say it was. Um, they knew they was doing the job that the white was doing and they thought they shoulda had more money.

BLATNEY: These were probably some men that he knew very closely. Working with them they probably developed a beautiful friendship and they probably said, let's do it together. And then one wrote it and the other signed it in order to say we're all together in this and together we might get more done than would have just one of us would sign it. I would think that that would be --

JONES: Yeah, together we stand and --

BLATNEY: -- the reason. Divided we fall. And it was probably all the men who worked in that department at that time because usually there were only four or five blacks in a department together at a time. They didn't put a lot of people there, and I say this from what I know about the mill. They didn't put a lot of blacks in one area.

JONES: No.

BLATNEY: They tried to scatter them out as much as they possibly could. And these were probably the only men that he worked closely with.

JONES: Yes.

HELFAND: Now, could you talk about the control -- I mean, I know that you weren't born yet. You were born a year later --

JONES: I was born in '35.

HELFAND: -- because you're 59. You were born in '35. So you were born two years after this letter was written.

JONES: Yeah.

HELFAND: Um, did you -- did you know anything? I mean, did you ever hear your father talk about his work in the mill? Did you -- I mean, or what it meant to be at that time a black man working in Cannon Mills?

JONES: Yes, um, Daddy worked in the mill ever since he was -- I think he said he was 17 year old when he went to the mill, and he walked to and from work every day and he never was out. And he baled cotton all those years. He would talk about baling the cotton, how he'd shift the gears on the machine and everything, and open cotton and bale 'em and so on -- so we knew all about his job 'cause he would bring it home with him every day. But, he was just an outstanding man to watch his job, home, and neighborhood.

BLATNEY: Well, do you think that by him bringing it home with him every day he was complaining or was he proud that he had that type job?

JONES: Well, really and truly I think he was proud of his job because at the time you was lucky to have a job, especially a job paying no more than 22 cent 00:15:00an hour, 'cause most people were farmers at that time.

HELFAND: What does this letter represent to both of you? I mean, you were born here, this is your people who wrote this letter and it's a letter of protest.

BLATNEY: I would say that it was one of the first protests that the blacks in this area --

HELFAND: Could you refer to this -- could you refer to this letter? I mean, you could -- she could -- Myrtle can hold -- refer to this letter and look up a little, too.

BLATNEY: This letter to me was one of the first protests that the blacks ever did in this area that I know of. I can't remember or ever hear of any other protest that the blacks made and this was a protest, even though it was in 00:16:00writing, it was a sign that things were not going well and things were not going well at that time with the -- not only these men, with all of the men in this area who worked. It was not going well, and these men had the gumption and the common sense and the audacity to come out and say it where most of them suffered in silence and never said anything about it. I think had it been maybe known about this letter, maybe a lot more people might have signed this letter or might have been along with this group of folk. But this was a group who decided among themselves that this is what we're going to do about it. How do you feel about it?

JONES: Well, I feel the same way and I think it was just really great that they had that much spunk.

HELFAND: Could you --

JONES: Yes, I think it was great, um, that they had this much spunk or whatever and to tell somebody about it, to write about it and to explain they feeling because it takes a lots of guts to do this. You know what I mean?

BLATNEY: I'm sure it did.

JONES: I think it's just wonderful.

BLATNEY: Well, at any rate, whether anything comes from it at that time or not, I still believe it was a good idea and it gives me the idea that maybe instead of just taking things as they come, maybe I need to say something about some things sometimes that are not going well or you need to say something about some things that are not going well. You still work in the mill and I'm sure the conditions aren't --

JONES: They're not what they're supposed to be. I can assure you.

BLATNEY: But still nobody -- still nobody else complains because this is the only -- like I say, the only complaint that I have ever heard of about conditions at Cannon Mill and I have lived in this area off and on for the last 60 -- 65 years almost and I never heard of any other complaint. So maybe -- maybe this should -- I don't know.

JONES: Well, they still doesn't have equal rights. They are said to have equal rights but we still doesn't have equal rights. It's partial, but not all the way.

BLATNEY: I'm sure that it is. This led up to something else, I'm sure, but right now looking at this it just lets me know that we've always had those courageous folk who always wanted things to be better and my dad used to tell me 00:19:00often that if you want something to change, you have to do something about it. And that's what I think the idea that these men might have had. That they wanted to change and they were willing to stick their necks out to try and bring about some change.

HELFAND: That's right. Well, you know, back then in 1933 just -- they wrote this letter after the National Recovery Act, the thing that gave us the eight hour day and the 40-hour work week and the minimum wage that went into effect right before they wrote this letter. Is there -- when you read this letter did you write -- did you read the date?

BLATNEY: January 13, 1933. The address is Cannon Mills, Plant #6.

HELFAND: You know what? I want you, uh -- after he finishes, if you could just chime in when you -- when he starts to read the names, you could say, that's my father. And you could even say, I never knew about this and I still work at 00:20:00the mill or something.

BLATNEY: This letter says, "Concord, North Carolina, January 13, 1933, Cannon Mill, Plant #6. Dear Mr. Roosevelt, We are writing you in regards to our wages. The company is paying all the other people more money but us. We are only getting 22 cents an hour now and we cannot live at that and can you please help us some for we have asked for a raise but did not get it. They will not pay the colored people any more and we have a family to keep up. Thank you very much and it's signed by Louis Davis, James Dry, Sam Witherspoon, Doc Jackson, Tom 00:21:00Stroud, and Paul Means. Our job is running cotton machines, presses."

JONES: That's my daddy. Yeah, that's Sam Witherspoon and that's his handwriting.

BLATNEY: And we still work in the mill.

JONES: And I still work in the mill and things are not like they're supposed to be.

BLATNEY: Well, maybe somebody else needs to write a letter. I don't know, maybe that might be the answer. I don't know, but you wouldn't write to the president this day and time.

HELFAND: Now, do you think -- do you think that, um, do you think that this got around? I mean, do you think that at that time most people -- could you describe to me the control in this town at the time and what it meant to sign 00:22:00your name to a letter of complaint? I mean, we're talking about Concord and Kannapolis.

BLATNEY: I really believe that this was kept a secret because had this got around these people would have been out of a job. These people would have been out of a job and probably a lot more colored people who might have sympathized with them after they found out what was going on because at that time the -- the whole [Cabarrus?] county was under a great deal of control where blacks were concerned, and still is to an extent, but back then blacks writing something to the president, it would have been terrible the repercussions that might have -- and I'm sure that most of these people who signed this letter would have been out of a job and the thing about it, they wouldn't have been able to work for Cannon Mills anymore during their lifetime because they had something happen similar later on in years and some of those people now can't work Cannon Mills.

HELFAND: And what--

JONES: Yes, because when the union was there and some of them got fired behind the union.

BLATNEY: Yeah, even to try and unionize.

HELFAND: I'm sorry, I started to cut you off. You were just saying that even now --

BLATNEY: When the union, you know --

JONES: Yeah, because we have the union now and some of them lost a job behind the union. So I think back then if they had a -- they wouldn't be able to work for the company at all.

HELFAND: Well, you don't have a union. You tried to get a union then, right?

JONES: Yeah.

HELFAND: Were you a part of that, too?

JONES: Well, yes, I voted, but you didn't have to tell which way you voted, but you voted. But it didn't go through.

HELFAND: We don't know what you're referring to, so --

JONES: The union.

HELFAND: OK, OK. Let me let this car go by. We were talking about-- you were just saying that signing your name to a protest -- I mean, this is -- it wasn't just -- the control wasn't just for the blacks, it was for all people that worked in the mill town, right?

BLATNEY: Yeah, the mill was in control of all of the people and that was part of the reason that they didn't pay them any more money than they did because they felt like if we pay you more money, you might get out of our control and we won't be able to control you. But if we give you just enough to make a living, we don't have to worry about you too much. And I think that was the whole idea behind the low paying wage was to keep everybody under control that you don't go out and do something that we wouldn't want you to do because if you don't have no money, there's not much you can do.

HELFAND: Now, talking about control, I mean, could you refer to the letter in terms of challenging control and what you both think that meant at the time and what it means now?

BLATNEY: Well, at the time that this letter was written, to do this -- to do something like this showed that they were willing to buck the control -- willing to go against the norm and do something on their own, which is something that's a great idea don't care who it is, but to be black and do something like this it meant a lot -- it means a lot to me to know there were blacks who had that much, uh, forward look, that they wanted to do something about the conditions that they were under. Because I can remember even back in slavery, a lot of people in slavery, they didn't want to get out of slavery because they were satisfied. They had become complacent and that's what happened with a lot of the people that worked in Cannon Mill in those days. They were complacent and they didn't worry about change or what would make it better for them. They were just glad to get whatever they could get.

JONES: But you see most of 'em lived in Cannon houses.

BLATNEY: Yeah.

JONES: And my dad didn't live in Cannon house and none of these men here had a part of Cannon house so they were struggling for themselves. So, this is why I think they wanted more money so they could survive a little better.

HELFAND: But the fact that they also, uh, lived in their own house it meant that they couldn't get evicted, didn't it?

JONES: Right.

HELFAND: Could you -- I mean, maybe that has a connection with why they signed their names. Could you -- could you -- could you make that connection for me?

JONES: Well, I think, um, one reason why they had enough spunk about themselves to write the president and to describe how they feel about things was because they owned their home, they was buying their home, and they knew at the time that they couldn't be throwed out of their house. Maybe they were got out of a job, but if they felt like it was some way they could have survived and finished paying for their houses. So I think this is one reason why they went 00:27:00on and wrote letters and signed their name.

BLATNEY: Here again you gotta refer back to that control.

HELFAND: One second, we just have to wait for an airplane.

BLATNEY: I know a lot of the things that were going on that maybe some people don't know about, but when you talk about that control, that living in the man's house that you worked for, he really had you under control because if you did anything that he didn't like he could put you out of the house, take your job, and where were you going to go? Especially if you've got five or six children, because five or six children you don't just take 'em out and live out on the street like people do now, but these men, a lot of them realized this and were afraid in some instances to speak out too much. But, like you 00:28:00say, these men owned their own homes, they had jobs, they figured I'll make it somewhere or other.

JONES: Well, my dad has always been a very strong man and he said what he meant and he meant what he said.

BLATNEY: Well, I know that.

JONES: And that's the way we grew up. And if he said he were gonna do something, he did it, regardless.

BLATNEY: Well, when I -- even when I dealt with you and your brother as children, I found that out because if he said we aren't going anywhere, we didn't go anywhere.

JONES: That was true.

HELFAND: Why didn't your father -- take that letter for a second -- why didn't your father tell you about this?

JONES: Uh, he would just sit down and we would ask him things concerning his job, especially after we got up some size, you know, my brothers got large enough to go in the mill and he would ask them, is this -- is you sure this what 00:29:00you want to do in life? Then he would tell 'em what a tough time he had in life by working under these circumstances. But he said I made it by the grace of God. But now if this what you want to do the rest of your life it's your choice. And he really talked to us about the job and going into the mill as a career because he wanted us to better ourself if there was a possibility rather than go into this career. But I have one brother that's a mechanic. I has another one that work at the chemical plant. I has a sister that work at UNCC and I has a sister that work at the VA hospital in Salisbury. I am the only one 00:30:00that's at Cannon Mill. So, it look like I didn't take his -- I didn't take his word.

HELFAND: But what's his word there?

JONES: Uh, I just -- I didn't take it for granted, you know, like whether you want to make our career here, like I chose this as a career.

HELFAND: But could you say this now? I mean, think about it, you work in the mills, your daddy worked in the mills, your daddy's talking to you maybe through this letter, isn't he?

JONES: Yes.

HELFAND: Could you -- if you believe what I said, could you say that and talk about that?

JONES: Yeah, Daddy taught me -- well, in this letter he's telling you that, uh, how, you know, the pay would be and how the black people were treated and still is treated and -- but I didn't take it like that. I just went on because I didn't thought of an education like my other sisters and brothers. 00:31:00They furthered their education other than just high school, and I didn't do that, so I had to take the next highest paying thing, you know, to survive.

HELFAND: But, Myrtle, what is your -- is your father just talking about wages and hours here or is he talking about something else?

JONES: Well, he's talking about -- well, you can make a living there, that's what he -- he's really saying you can make a living there, but it wouldn't be as great a one as you would if you would further your education.

HELFAND: But, I mean, by -- by -- just because he wrote that letter because he had the gumption, I'm quoting you, to write that letter, is he -- is he just -- in the very act of writing it, is he just talking about wages and hours or is he saying something in the act of writing it? You know what I mean?

JONES: Well, he's telling me that you have to stand up for your rights and I do regardless, I do -- I mean, it may cause a little heart ache sometime, but what I say I mean it and I will not take it back and I don't care who its with you, you, or who. If I feel like I'm right, I'm right. And I'm not gonna take it back because, you know, to make you feel well about it.

HELFAND: Now, I want you to look at that letter and you know what? Do you want me to take your cigarettes for a second?

JONES: (laughs) (inaudible)

HELFAND: Yeah, OK, but told me he wrote this letter, so what he's telling me by writing this letter is stand up for my rights and then go with that. Do you know what I mean?

JONES: Okay.

HELFAND: I just want you to say what you said again, but I want you to refer directly to this letter and then 60 years later what he's trying to say to you in that.

JONES: Well, my daddy wrote this letter in '33 and I never knew about this letter. But since reading the letter, to me he's telling me to stand up for my rights and to let people know how I feel about things and hold them to that point, you know, because now they you supposed to have equal rights. Whether we get it or not, you still have that to go on. And you have people standing behind you now when 30 years -- 33 years ago there wasn't anybody behind you, but you got people standing behind you if you write nowadays. So, I think Daddy's just telling me here that whatever [fear?] you take in life, to stand 00:34:00up for your rights and things will go well, you know.

HELFAND: Will they?

JONES: I think so. Things'll go very well if you stand up and let a person know who you are and what you for.

HELFAND: Now, do you think it would have made a difference to a lot of the people who have worked in the mills, a lot of the black people who worked in the mills, if they'd known maybe about a letter like this? And use my question in your answer. You can both answer.

BLATNEY: I think if this letter -- I believe that had this letter been made more public, some of the people who worked at the mill would have been more energetic about doing something about the conditions. Uh, people like to be a follower; nobody wants to be a leader. And now that they've already got leaders, some 00:35:00other people would have followed them and maybe more could have been done or something could have been done and I keep thinking about this letter and evidently this letter was not made a public issue and the reason for that might have been, like I said earlier, afraid of job reprisals or something of that nature, but had this letter been made public, I think the whole thing would have went over a whole lot different to what it has gone now.

HELFAND: Well, this --

BLATNEY: And when I say different, maybe their wages would have been raised earlier, maybe the conditions would have been changed earlier, and people would have gotten more out of their work. But the people who worked in the Cannon Mills back in those days, they were proud to work in Cannon Mill. They were real proud folk. They were proud that they had a job that they didn't have to farm any longer. And most of these people who had gone to work in the mill come 00:36:00from farming families and here's something that I don't have to work from sun up until sun down and if this rain doesn't come or the sun doesn't shine, I won't have nothing at the end. And most of the people in this area who were farmers then were share croppers anyway and they didn't get much out of what they farmed for and these people that worked in the mill were a cut above those people who were farmers because they had an income which was year 'round, where on the farm you only had an income at the end of the season and then you owed most of that back to the man who had started you off in the spring.

JONES: Now, my dad never did farm and he always told us, uh, well, as children we would go to our grandmother's house and see molasses and stuff like that. We would ask him about molasses and he'd say I had enough of it when I was a child. We didn't get anything like that. We didn't go barefeet. We 00:37:00wasn't allowed to go barefeet or anything because Daddy put shoes on our feet and we were a proud family. We didn't have to go out here and pick cotton. I never did pick a boll of cotton in my life and my daddy always worked and my mother worked public and we never farm, so.

HELFAND: So, your father was a --

BLATNEY: Like I say, there was a little group maybe worked --

HELFAND: Could you -- could you start off by saying, you know, back in 1930 -- back in, you know, the 1930s there weren't that many (inaudible)?

BLATNEY: Back in the 1930s when this letter was written, and possibly a little further back because my father started working 1927, he was hired as a bale 00:38:00opener. That was the job he was hired for in 1927 and in the group where he worked there was five of them all black and they all worked in this one little room. There were some in there that hauled in the cotton, there were some in there that would open the cotton bales, and there were some that put the cotton in the machines and then there were some that took the waste out of the machines. There was about five of them and those five men worked together just about the 50 years that my father worked in the mill. And in -- maybe they had -- in the mill they had, like, a number one, a number two, a number three, a number four, a number five, a number six, a number seven.

HELFAND: Are you referring to mills?

BLATNEY: No, these are just sections and maybe the number one section they had an opening room, a weave room and a card room. Same thing for the number two section, same thing for all of the sections. If you worked in the opening room, 00:39:00a number one, you worked in the opening room for number one as long as you were in the mill.

HELFAND: But how many -- what I'm trying to -- how many -- I mean, the mill --

BLATNEY: I'd say it'd be four -- yeah, it'd be four or five blacks in the opening room. That was just about the extent.

HELFAND: Could you make a generalization -- could you say how many mills there were here in the area and maybe how many, you know, percentage of how many black people --

BLATNEY: Well, in the area there were -- when you're talking about mills now, you're talking about -- there was a Lock Mill, there was a Cannon Mill and there was a Gibson Mill when you talk about mills. But with the Cannon Mill, they had the departments in Cannon Mill numbered one through eight departments. And each department made a different thing. There were some departments that made towels. There were other departments that made sheets. There were other departments that made different things, but they had in that, they had an opening room, a card room, a picker room, a spinning room, and a weave room. 00:40:00Like, in number one they had all of those in the number one section.

HELFAND: And of all of that --

BLATNEY: And all of that you might have seven blacks in that whole --

JONES: Section.

HELFAND: Right, but as a -- in a generalization --

BLATNEY: Maybe 50 blacks in that whole department, in that whole mill. Fifty, maybe a hundred blacks, in that whole mill out of possibly seven or 800 people. And the blacks only did the lower paying, menial jobs. There were no black weavers at that time. There were no black spinners at that time. There were no black card hands at that time. There were no black picker hands at that time. Only blacks worked in the part where they opened the cotton, got the cotton ready to make the first thread. They handled the raw cotton. That's what the 00:41:00blacks did and back in 1933 I'm sure that's what they were doing because they were doing that in 1946 because I went to work in that department in 1946 breaking up the bales for the first thread. I worked about two months and I couldn't handle it any longer. (laughs)

HELFAND: Now, knowing that, doing a job -- I mean, writing a letter like that, what -- I mean, if you wrote that and your supervisor saw it, what would that mean? Or if the boss saw it. I mean, why were you writing to the president?

BLATNEY: They wouldn't ask you that. You just would be fired probably on the spot.

HELFAND: Could you say if -- could both of you talk about that as far as you know. I mean, if they knew that you'd written a letter like this --

BLATNEY: I feel that if they had known that you'd write a letter to the president or write a letter to anybody, not only the president, to anybody 00:42:00complaining about the conditions, you would no longer be working there, and you would be what they called black-balled. In other words, you would never be able to work for Cannon Mills under any circumstances again. Now that's the way I feel about this, and that's possibly why this letter was not widely known even though these men had to stand up to do it, but I don't think they wanted it known that they did it. I don't believe they did. How about you?

JONES: I don't know because Daddy was a little different. Daddy didn't care, I mean, if he felt like it was something that needed to be out in the open, he would say it regardless to what the outcome would be. I mean, he would say that -- he'd say, well, if that job goes, say God would give me strength to get another job. And that's the way he felt about things. And I believe 00:43:00he would have stuck his head out regardless whether everybody knew about it or whether they didn't.

HELFAND: Did you -- um, this was written right after they put the NRA into effect and apparently, you know, they believed that they were supposed to get minimum wage, 30 cents an hour, and I think that's why they wrote this letter because all the other people were getting 30 cents an hour and they thought because they were running machines, they should get it, too. There were other -- a lot of people in other different communities that also wrote letters. They didn't know about this one, I don't think, saying the same thing. Saying, hey, you finally passed this legislation that's for all people, what about us?

JONES: Mm-hmm. So, what you're saying is, uh, that he knew about the -- the 00:44:00wages had been passed, you know, that they was supposed to make more and they hadn't received theirs, so I think that's why he just gave up and just said, well, what the heck? I'm not getting it anyway. Why not let somebody know about it? You know? So I feel like this is why they went on and they didn't have nothing to lose. They wouldn't gain anything from it, but they didn't have anything to lose.

HELFAND: Now, was there --

BLATNEY: I think that they might have thought that they were going to get -- I think they thought they were going to gain something from it was the reason they wrote the letter. It wasn't that they figured they wouldn't. They figured by writing this letter this would draw the attention to the fact that hey, there are part of us down here who aren't getting anything. We all ought to get it or nobody get it. And I think this is why the letter was written to say -- because they say they were paying other people more money.

JONES: Yeah.

BLATNEY: Which is saying that why not me, too?

JONES: Yeah, I mean, (inaudible) too.

BLATNEY: I think this is what this letter was about, and like I say, the only thing they were worrying about was why don't we get paid the same as everybody else because we're working just like they are.

JONES: Yeah. Well, that's --

BLATNEY: And I think that was the whole reason for this letter and just happened these men were the ones who did it. And I mean, there may be some others who might have done the same thing, but this is just the one maybe that was found.

HELFAND: At the time they were doing this, though, a lot -- there was a lot of union organization going on here in Kannapolis and Concord and that was one of the first times that they started to heavily organize the union. Did you know about that?

JONES: No, I didn't know about that. In fact, I didn't know anything concerning the letter or the union or anything until Lawrence was telling me.

BLATNEY: Well, now about the union, my mother was the one who told me about that. My mother said they even had a strike and they opened a union store. A store where the people who were members of the union could go and get groceries free of charge, and during that time my mother said she was privileged to go to the store one time. She only went one time and of course, I feel that the reason -- this is my own thinking, I didn't ask her, but I think the reason she didn't go to the store anymore is because of the location of the store. The location of the store, what we would call back now, redneck area, but back then it wasn't redneck, it was just pure white and your blacks just didn't go there. It was in the area of where the new Food Lion is downtown. The store was in that area on the opposite side of the street and my mother went to it 00:47:00because for years the store still remained there. I don't know whether it's there now, because when we grew up it was still called the union store although it was no longer the union store. And during the time of that strike they even brought the National Guard in to Kannapolis and they put the National Guard there to ensure the workers freedom in going and coming from work and they had the workers -- the National Guard -- stand on the tops of the Cannon Mill building with guns to make sure.

JONES: That's before my time.

BLATNEY: To make sure that people got to work safely. And during the day some of the black workers in the Cannon Mill had to take water up to the top of the buildings to give those National Guard men drink during the day so they didn't dry out while they was standing there.

JONES: Well, I can remember Daddy saying that, uh, if they didn't carry their water -- they carried their water to work.

BLATNEY: I know, because there were no fountains for the black people to drink 00:48:00out of and if you didn't carry water with you, you didn't have any. They had fountains for whites, but they didn't have fountains for blacks.

HELFAND: How did you -- what were you just saying?

BLATNEY: I say, you can't quote me too much on this because I might be run out of town for talking about the conditions that were going at Cannon Mills and also at Cannon Mills they didn't even have inside toilets for black people at that time. They had black people who cleaned up inside toilets for white people, but they weren't allowed to use that toilet. If they wanted to use the toilet, they had to come outside the building to an outhouse that sit out by itself in all kinds of weather or whatever, and use the restroom, but they cleaned the bathrooms for the white folk. But the black folk had to go outside and they had one or two spaced around the Cannon Mill inside the fence that 00:49:00blacks had to use. (break in audio) To where I was talking about the bathrooms outside and they had to clean the toilets for the whites.

HELFAND: OK, why don't you -- you could start with that and if you could make the connection between that kind of segregation control and then, again, given all that, what it's meant to stand up for yourself like back at that time, it's really, uh, something.

BLATNEY: And, uh, this was going on as late as 1948. It still had not changed considerably. But then after the early '50s and the sit-in demonstrations and all that, it began to change. But even then there were some things that were not going well because the black man was still the lowest paid man on the totem poll because I worked in Cannon Mills for those two months. I only received a 00:50:00dollar an hour and -- and in comparison to that and what happened in 1933, there was very little difference because we still didn't make the money that we needed to support our families. Of course we did, with the help of God, but without that we wouldn't have been able to make it. And back in 1933 I feel like it was even harder to make it then. Of course things were a lot cheaper then because you could take a nickel and go and get a whole lot of flour for a nickel or you could go and get three or four eggs for nickel.

HELFAND: We got an airplane. Before you were saying in 1993 -- you made the connection between segregation and conditions in the mills and then you were gonna -- you were talking about that and you were gonna -- just so that we can understand the context of which they were writing then.

BLATNEY: Yeah, well, in the same context, a letter was needed after that also.

HELFAND: OK, but let's just talk about 1933.

BLATNEY: Well, 1933 --

HELFAND: I mean, you could say, look, I wasn't around, but I know --

BLATNEY: I was three years old at the time. In 1933 I was three years old. That was during the time of the Depression. The Depression ended around 1930, which had been a hard time for everybody, but then in 1933 conditions were beginning to get a little bit better because the NRA had been established and all of this was going -- was supposed to change to benefit all citizens in the United States. Same as it is now. The Civil Rights Act of 1954 was supposed to benefit all the citizens in the United States. It still hasn't benefited all of them and back then it didn't benefit all of them. But what it did do, it brought an awareness that there was something going wrong. Somebody wasn't 00:52:00doing what they were supposed to do and with these men they wanted it known personally that they were not getting what they were supposed to get out of the deal. Now, where there was a breakdown I don't know, but somewhere along the line there was a breakdown that it didn't filter down to everybody and the same thing happens today even with the sit-ins -- with the Civil Rights Administration. There is a part that has still not reaped any benefits of that right because there's a breakdown always before it reaches the person that needs it the most. Don't you think so?

JONES: Yeah, I think so.

HELFAND: Now, you were saying about that strike -- did you ever (break in audio)

BLATNEY: Now, in 1933 I was only three years old, so I don't know anything about the strike or anything. But after I got this letter, one day I was sitting talking with my mother about the letter --

HELFAND: Wait, after you started looking --

BLATNEY: Yeah, looking for the people who wrote the letter.

HELFAND: OK, so say that --

BLATNEY: All right. One day after I got started looking for the people that wrote the letter -- OK.

HELFAND: We're just going to kind of (inaudible).

BLATNEY: In 1933 I was only three years old, but after Connie handed me this letter, and Connie's my niece who works with [PPP?], handed me this letter and I went around looking for some of these people and couldn't find anybody but Myrtle, I decided to ask my mother if she knew any of these folk because my mother's 87 years old and I figured she might know some of them. And in talking with her, she says, "Yes," she says, "I remember when they had the strike," and that was the first I had heard of a strike. And she told me that during the strike they opened a union store and the people were allowed to go there and get groceries and she did go to the union store one time. She also related to me an incident of one lady who did never go to the store but she did 00:54:00washing and ironing for the white people who worked in Cannon Mill and they gave her the stuff that they got at the union store. So what she did, she went and bought a calf and fed the stuff to the calf in order to make the calf fat enough that she killed the calf and then she had some meat to go along with her food. But my mother was saying that they brought the National Guard in and they put the National Guard up on the tops of the buildings with guns to make sure that the workers would get back and forth to work without anybody doing any harm to them, and that the men who worked in the mill that were black would have to take the water up on top of the mill to give to the guards whenever they wanted a drink. And I suppose that was because that the blacks being the most low paid and servant type folk, it was a better job for them to take the water than it was for the white folk to take the water up there. That was, again, a control 00:55:00thing and a thing of saying you are below my station. And I think that was the whole thing in a nutshell with Cannon Mills. It was always -- and even in, she mentioned earlier about the Cannon Mills houses -- in the Cannon Mills houses most of the houses that were built for the blacks that Cannon Mills has in Kannapolis were only three-room houses. There was a bedroom, a living room and a kitchen, and you paid for that -- the time I remember my father was paying 75 cents per week per room. Now, I don't know why, but all of the houses I know of in Kannapolis that were built for blacks were only three rooms. Where for the whites they built four- and five-room houses and if you go to Kannapolis now and look around you can see all of these houses that were built for blacks. You can see all the houses that were built for whites. Uh, I was one of those who 00:56:00lived in a Cannon Mill house. I lived in a Cannon Mill house until after I graduated from high school. The time I graduated from high school, at that time we were living in a four-bedroom home. There were nine children at our house plus Mother and Father.

HELFAND: And what did it mean to -- for you -- you know what? You have a leaf on your head.