Kathy Lamb Interview 1

JUDITH HELFAND: When you get to that part you can stop.

KATHY LAMB: Whoop, there.

HELFAND: Kathy, read it a little out loud the way you read it to yourself the first time.

LAMB: OK. The thing I noticed the first time was this, it had the list of the dead and the wounded.

HELFAND: All right, well, read it - read it almost to yourself as if like the first time. Can you read it out loud?

LAMB: OK. "Honea Path, September 6th, National Guardsman tonight patrolled the ground at Chiquola Mill where this morning six strikers fell mortally wounded under a hail of gunfire from nonunion workers and special deputies. The company of National Guard, transported by truck from Greenville, arrived in town tonight as plans went forward for the burying of those dead. Possibly a score of others received injuries necessitating hospital treatment. One was in serious condition at Anderson County Hospital. The guard unit on duty here is Company D of the 118th Infantry. The company from Orangeburg is the Machine Gun Unit of the South Carolina Guard Regiment. Its armament includes four heavy 00:02:00machine guns. An inquest in the death of six men has been set for Monday afternoon in the city hall in Honea Path by Coroner J.R. McCoy. The hearing will be held at 2:00. At the same time, word was received that Norman Thomas, a nationally known socialist leader had been asked to deliver a funeral arrangement for those fallen in the short-lived but bloody riot. It was doubtful Thomas would accept the offer made by the American Federation of Silk Workers in New York. The slain this morning following the arrival between 100 and 150 workers from the Belton Mill at Belton. They were joined by 200 union strikers at the Chiquola plant and formed a picket line around the mill. A list of the dead were Lee Crawford, 26 of Honea Path, Thomas Yarbrough, 54 of Honea Path, Bill Knight of Honea Path, Ira Davis 26 of Honea Path, Claude Cannon, 27 of Honea Path, Maxie H. Peterson 27 of Greenwood. The more seriously and some treated and released."

HELFAND: Kathy, if you feel like you want to move a little bit.

M1: OK, whenever you're ready.

HELFAND: OK, let's start over here. You started reading that and I know that this is - this is the stuff that you didn't know, right?

LAMB: Uh-huh.

HELFAND: This piece right here?

LAMB: The machine guns and all that.

HELFAND: OK, could you just read it out loud as if you're reading it to yourself as if you're learning - you're discovering something while -

LAMB: I about started to cry a while ago when I was reading about those machine guns.

HELFAND: Well, start - start reading it - read it and you could put your hands on the screen if you need to. Do whatever you want that way. Just read with the same thing you were reading before and you can embellish it.

LAMB: "With [pro?] bloody Honea Path by guardsman on duty, six men slain, scores or more injured in burst of firing at Chiquola Mill plant doors Thursday morning at strike squadron picket lines blasted. Prepared to bury dead and quiet 00:04:00prevails in town. Honea Path, September 6th, National Guardsman tonight patrol the grounds at Chiquola Mill where this morning six strikers fell mortally wounded under a hail of gunfire from nonunion workers and special deputies. The company of National Guards, transported by truck from Greenville, arrived in town tonight as plans went forward for the burying of those dead. Possibly a score of others received injuries necessitating hospital treatment. One was in serious condition in the Anderson County Hospital. The guard unit on duty here is Company D of the 118th Infantry. The company from Orangeburg is a machine gun unit of the South Carolina Guard Regiment. Its armament includes four heavy machine guns. An inquest into the death of six men has been set for Monday afternoon in the city hall of Honea Path by Coroner J.R. McCoy. The hearing will be held at 2:00. At the same time, word was received that Norman Thomas, nationally known socialist leader has been asked to delivery a funeral oration for those following the short-lived but bloody riot. It was doubtful if Thomas 00:05:00would accept the offer made by the American Federation of Silk Workers in New York. The slaying this morning followed the arrival of between 100 and 150 strikers from Belton Mill at Belton. They were joined by 200 union strikers at the Chiquola plant and formed a picket line around the mill. A list of the dead were Lee Crawford, 26 of Honea Path, Thomas Yarbrough, 54 of Honea Path, Bill Knight of Honea Path, Ira Davis, 26 of Honea Path, Claude Cannon, 27 of Honea Path, Maxie H. Peterson, 27 of Greenwood. More seriously wounded were A.B. Wooten, 34, gunshot wound to the left leg, Debbie A. Smith, 24, pistol wound in the back, Riley Long, 20, gunshot wound which fractured the left arm, Will F. Ballard, 45, gunshot wound in the hip, C.R. Rucker, 39, wounds on the hip and 00:06:00shoulder, Mrs. Lois McClain, shot - gunshot wound in the left arm, and Debbie F. Garrison who had a broken jaw."

M1: You OK?

LAMB: "Others treated" -

HELFAND: What are you feeling?

LAMB: It's - the one, shot in the back. I mean why do you shoot anybody in the back, that's leaving somewhere. They're not hurting anybody. They never found guns on any of 'em. It's beyond belief. If something like this happened now, they'd throw all of 'em jail, the sheriff and all of them included. But they didn't do anything to any of 'em. And - and when you shoot children and women in the streets, I mean, it's terrible. And it - I can understand why people don't want to talk about it because it hurts so bad to know that - and bringing machine guns. These are people. They didn't have tanks. They didn't need machine guns. You don't need machine guns when people in the street. I mean what were they going to do, mow 'em down? 00:07:00It's ridiculous. I mean, 200 people, they didn't need machine guns, no. I don't think they needed the National Guard. When a company wants to run peoples' lives like this and - and won't even talk about things, and it comes to this, there's something definitely wrong. And - and these people didn't deserve this. Nobody deserves it. I don't care if they were union, nonunion, or what. Nobody deserves to be shot in the back and stand in the street not bothering anybody. It's ridiculous. I don't know how I'd feel if one of 'em was my relative. I'd probably - I'd still wouldn't be talking about it. I'm not like other people. When things like that happen in my family, I talk about it 'til somebody listens. And I just can't understand something like this happening. And I can't understand why my dad didn't tell me. He could talk about the war and talk about people being blown 00:08:00to bits but he couldn't talk about his neighbors being killed. And he's like somebody trying to hide a dirty secret about their family, like they're ashamed of what happened to their families. They ought to be proud of 'em. They stood up when other people wouldn't. Just because of what happened in Honea Path people are afraid of unions now. They think that the companies are going to kill 'em and they just - they're scared to death, and there's no reason to be. They're there to help 'em. My own grandfather was a night 00:09:00watchman and he didn't say anything. He knew what was going to happen. But I guess when the police are involved in it, there's nothing you can - you don't have anybody to go to. And then again, they were all afraid to say anything because they were afraid of the man that was the ringleader of it.

[no audio 09:27-10:53]

M1: OK.

LAMB: "Expect thousands at mass funeral in Honea Path." Says they fired into the air, didn't shoot anybody.

(pause)

LAMB: They postponed the inquest into their - six peoples' deaths.

HELFAND: What does it say on the top?

LAMB: It's about the same thing as the other -

HELFAND: Can you just (inaudible).

LAMB: "Thousands attend funeral -

M1: (crosstalk). Go ahead.

LAMB: "Thousands attend funeral rites for slain in Honea Path."

HELFAND: Can you go to the bottom?

LAMB: Sure.

HELFAND: Read a little bit about that?

LAMB: If I can bring it up. "Postpone inquest on the sixth day as coroner's inquiry into the death of six men at Honea Path. Thursday morning scheduled to be held Monday at 2:00 was postponed yesterday following a conference between county officials. In making the announcements, Coroner J. Roy McCoy issued a 00:13:00statement in which he pointed out that Solicitor Rufus Fant is at the present time busy with the regular sessions of court term and cannot be in attendance. Mr. McCoy's statement follows: 'We had originally planned to hold the inquest into the Honea Path killings Monday at 2:00 but after discussing the situation with other county officials and Solicitor Rufus Fant and I have decided that the inquest should be postponed for a period of several days. Solicitor Fant who was present at the inquest as necessary is engaged at this time in a term of criminal court and will be an inconvenience to him to attend the inquest for the next several days.'" Some inconvenience.

[Silence]

[Silence]

LAMB:"Carolina strikers tighten lines, prepare for long siege." Here's a picture of the funerals. "At the top in the crowd which gathered - at the top 00:16:00is a crowd which gathered at Honea Path Saturday afternoon in attendance upon the funeral services for six men slain in Thursday's bloody clash. Just below are soldiers standing guard in front of the Honea Path City Hall. One of them is armed with an automatic rifle. To the right are soldiers manning the machine gun at the top of the 96 Mill." God.

HELFAND: What does the top say?

LAMB: "Textile strike movement in Carolinas apparent. North Carolina mill manager's shirt torn from back."

HELFAND: __ stop (inaudible).

M1: What?

HELFAND: (inaudible)

M1: I've had it all the time.

HELFAND: OK. OK, let's go on.

M1: OK, when you're ready?

LAMB: "Girls strikers as prisoners of war dressed in fatigue uniforms customarily worn by military prisoners, overalls and jumpers. These girls strikers face imprisonment for the duration of the textile strike. They are shown being served dinner by soldier jailers in the internment camp at Atlanta, Georgia where they were held on charges of having attempted to prevent workers from entering a cotton mill at Newnan, Georgia. Men arrested with them are held in another camp."

HELFAND: What do you think about that?

LAMB: They're not criminals. They shouldn't be held like that. That's crazy. I mean, I mean they're citizens of this country and they've not committed a crime. They shouldn't be in jail. They just want a better life for them and - and their children and their children's children from then on. That's not a crime.

F1: Sue Winn could you please come to the front, Sue Winn?

LAMB: There's one. "Two hundred and seven will testify on strike death." Is that clearer? "Two hundred and seven witnesses have been summoned to test-

M1: (inaudible)

LAMB: Yeah.

M1: Judy

HELFAND: Yes.

M1: Do -

HELFAND: Put in the Newnan roundup pics or… Dan?

DAN: Yeah.

HELFAND: You did?

DAN: Yeah.

M1: Can you do that again?

DAN: You wanted to say, do it again.

HELFAND: OK. Would you mind - could we go - is it far away.

LAMB: No.

HELFAND: Go back to the Newnan roundup. Do you know what I'm talking about?

LAMB: Yeah.

HELFAND: The women there?

LAMB: Yeah, yeah. Wait a minute, here it is.

DAN: Is your transcript tape working?

HELFAND: No.

DAN: Do you not want to?

HELFAND: Well, I think at this point…

DAN: Keep it off for this whole thing?

HELFAND: Well, yeah, because it's…

LAMB: OK.

HELFAND: And you could read any note, humph to yourself the way you always do, like girl strikers, humph, whatever.

LAMB: (laughter).

M1: Yeah, we're rolling.

LAMB: OK. "Girl strikers as prisoners of war. Dressed in the fatigue uniforms customarily worn by military prisoners, overalls and jumpers, these girl strikers face imprisonment for the duration of the textile strike. They are shown being served dinner by soldier jailers in the internment camp in Atlanta, Georgia where they are held on charges of having attempted to prevent workers from entering a cotton mill in Newnan, Georgia. Men arrested with them are held in another camp." Like they're big criminals. It's 'cause 00:21:00they tried to have a better life and want other people to have it to.

HELFAND: What about their children's children?

LAMB: Well, they want a better life for them, their children's children, grandchildren, on down the line. They want a better future for everybody. Yet they get thrown in jail like a criminal. I think the plant superintendents ought to be down there instead of them. "Two hundred and seven will testify on strike deaths." Oh, Lord. "Two hundred and seven witnesses have been summoned to testify for the state at a coroner's inquest into the deaths of 00:22:00seven men in Honea Path strike riot three weeks ago. The hearing will begin at the courthouse at 9:00 Monday. Coroner J. Roy McCoy said that all of the witnesses have been notified to appear at the opening of the inquest but that if it's necessary a formal summons will be issued and served to ensure the attendance of all those notified. In addition, Solicitor Rufus Fanton, who will be in charge of the proceedings, United Textile Workers Union of America union organization has employed John Hughes Cooper of Columbia and the Civil Liberties Union of New York was reported here today as having employed G.H. Burbidge of Greenville to assist in the investigation. The inquest is expected to last for several days and may consume the entire week. Coroner McCoy announced Friday that arrangements have been made to install a microphone in the courtroom and a loudspeaker erected on the east side of the building for the benefit of persons who are unable to secure seats in the auditorium. Mr. McCoy said the spectators 00:23:00would be limited to the seating available." And it's continued. Page six. "The coroner said that no trouble is anticipated then he would not ask that that National Guard be sent here during the inquest. Sensational evidence. While no positive statement has been forthcoming as to the nature of evidence to be brought out, reports from the Honea Path indicate that some witnesses, at least some are prepared to bring direct charges against persons alleged to have taken part in the shooting. There was considerable talk in Honea Path also to 00:24:00the effect that the course of the inquest might necessitate the exhuming of sev-- certain bodies for postmortem examinations to determine the size and nature of the death missiles. According to reports, several of the witnesses who were wounded have positively identified the persons firing the shots that inflicted their injuries. Mr. Cooper, a well-known Columbia attorney and former candidate for lieutenant governor has usually - unusually active in the case. He has questioned a total of 137 witnesses, all of who have been ordered to attend the investigation. In addition, Mr. McCoy has bound over 54 witnesses and the sheriff's office has summoned 14. members of the coroner's jury consisting of nine persons as follows: Dr. S.F. Donald, Ian Davis, L.W. Davis, J.H. Cox, I. Kirsch, W. Baster, A.B. Williams, Frank Mitchell, and C.H. Roper. The seven slain textile picketers were Lee Crawford, Thomas Yarbor, E.M. Knight, Ira Davis, Claude Cannon, C.L. Rucker, and Maxie Peterson."

HELFAND: Did you know any of them?

LAMB: No. I found out later that the Davis man was married to the woman that lived across the street from me but I never knew it 'til last week, and she's been dead for a year.

HELFAND: You can stop for a second.

[Indistinct background conversation]

LAMB: One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. Seven, eight. Here it 00:26:00says 300 witnesses will tell how they saw a riot. The state had called 207. There's 93 more that the attorneys are going to call.

HELFAND: Can you talk about your grandpa?

LAMB: I got to get to that. They're just saying it's gonna start at 9:00 that day so it'll be the next day when he's in there.

HELFAND: But I mean, could you - while you're looking for it could you - could you say, now, I know my grandfather's - did you find out - well, can you stop it for a second?

LAMB: This is really interesting. Six strikers shot in back.

HELFAND: (inaudible) make this interesting.

LAMB: Yes, it's interesting to me. It's shocking and interesting to me. It's a pain is what it is. It really makes me mad that people are shot in the back. I mean it's bad anybody gets shot, but shot in the back? I mean people - we don't need to be shot in the back. These people had no weapons and here's the big headlines, "Six strikers shot in back, witnesses claim in inquest." It's ridiculous. (inaudible)

HELFAND: Read the headline out loud.

LAMB: OK.

HELFAND: And you can respond to it.

LAMB: "Six strikers shot in back witnesses claim in inquest." People, uh, 00:28:00it's bad enough people are killed anywhere, but shot in the back. That means they were running to take cover. If they had had guns they would here shot back. They wouldn't run. Nobody deserves this at all.

HELFAND: Can you say it, nobody deserves… I didn't know they were shot…

LAMB: I didn't know they were shot in the back.

HELFAND: Start it again, yeah, he spoke over me. Just look at that and speak to it.

LAMB: All the way over again?

HELFAND: No, sorry.

LAMB: OK. I didn't know they were -

M1: Hold on, hold on a second.

LAMB: OK.

HELFAND: And as if you were looking at it, like that first time?

M1: OK.

LAMB: OK. I didn't know these people were shot in the back. I mean, the pictures you have in your mind, you don't think about people being shot in the back in a riot. You think about them fighting back and evidently they didn't fight back. They ran to be - to keep from being killed, and then they shot 00:29:00'em in the back. To me when you turn your back to run, you're no longer a threat to anybody. They didn't have any reason to shoot people in the back. They were leaving. This is crazy. OK, there's about seven or eight columns of testimony here from different people. This one is my dad's -- Grady Gilmore is my dad's uncle. He testified to the jury that he was a picket on the picket line and he saw Rob Calvert shoot Lee Crawford. That man never served a 00:30:00day, and you had an eyewitness to it. Hmm, Divere Autry was on the picket duty. He saw Cox and Lee Crawford, which is a man who got killed, go to close a window where picker sticks were being thrown out. Lee Crawford hit Calvin over 00:31:00the head with his fist.

M: (inaudible) machine.

M: (inaudible) understand.

M: (inaudible)

F: (inaudible)

(pause)

HELFAND: Did you find it?

LAMB: No, I can't find it. Back up here they say this one guy was laying with - on his face down with his arms out crawling and they shot him the back and killed him. I can't find it. I remember - there it is, right there in front of me.

M1: OK, whenever you're ready.

LAMB: Want me to start reading or what?

HELFAND: Yeah, just get into and - get into the…

LAMB: OK. My grandfather was a night watchman at the mill in Honea Path and his testimony blew me away. I couldn't believe that - that he was even there and it says, "The accused -

HELFAND: Can you just say I had no idea my grandfather who was a watchman had anything to do with this and here's his testimony.

LAMB: OK. I had no idea that my grandfather, who was a night watchman at the mill in Honea Path, he gave testimony at the inquiry and here it is: "[Bea Puse?] the night watchman who was not on strike testified that he left the mill building at 7 a.m. that morning of the difficulty. At that time, he said Harold Ashley and E.E. Kay were in the mill and they were armed. There were other armed men in the building but he did not recall their names. The witness says that he was at home when the shooting occurred and that he knew nothing of the actual combat." And I know he was at home because he came home early and my dad was eight years old and he got nosy and wanted to know why his daddy was home and he went to the mill and he was down there when people got shot.

HELFAND: Alright.

LAMB: And he's still nosy today.

HELFAND: - what you gave there was on 35.

[Indistinct background conversation]

LAMB: Do you want me to let it go? Ok, ok. Alright.

[Indistinct background conversation]

[Silence]

HELFAND: Ok, do it at the appropriate places here. Just stop it and then start it. Can you (inaudible).

LAMB: Uh-huh.

HELFAND: Do it at the speed that you were doing it and stop it and you'd normally stop it.

[Silence]

[Indistinct background conversation]

[Indistinct background conversation]

HELFAND: Alright.

[Silence]

HELFAND: OK, where are we?

LAMB: September 15th.

HELFAND: September 15th?

LAMB: Uh-huh.

HELFAND: OK.

M1: You're a trooper.

LAMB: I'm hanging in there. Like I said, it beats housework (laughter).

[Silence]

LAMB: That's the end.

HELFAND: (inaudible) What month are we in?

LAMB: August (laughter).

HELFAND: Why don't you do it and then stop it and maybe you can stop it (inaudible).

LAMB: How fast?

M1: Like you were doing before.

LAMB: Wide open?

HELFAND: Yeah. (crosstalk, laughter)

M1: Keep goling, keep going.

LAMB: Now how we goin', slow, fast?

HELFAND: Medium.

LAMB: Like this?

HELFAND: Um, too fast, slow.

LAMB: Like that?

HELFAND: Yes. Go back to that time, start again.

LAMB: Like that?

HELFAND: Yeah, but you gotta - let's start static from the top image. Yeah, let's just - um, a little bit to the left. We just need to have a running 00:45:00start. (inaudible) ahead of us. OK, here we go, go slow.

LAMB: Like that?

HEFLAND: A little slower.

LAMB: How, that?

HEFLAND: That's good. If you could nudge in a little bit.

LAMB: Bit faster? Is it all right like that?

M1: I think we should do slow.

HELFAND: Maybe you could pull out a bit (inaudible). Let's get closer on this 00:47:00(inaudible). Okay stop it for a second.

LAMB: I'm gonna lose the e on this end.

HELFAND: That's okay. (inaudible)

M1: Start with the strike.

HELFAND: Yeah.

M1: Go a little forward to get this (inaudible)

LAMB: To the right?

M1: Backward the other. Little more.

HELFAND: Ok (inaudible).

LAMB: Can we go that way?

HELFAND: Yeah.

LAMB: Keep moving?

HELFAND: Just a tad faster.

LAMB: How about that?

HELFAND: Let me get a little closer so that we can get that (inaubilble). Ok can we go back?

LAMB: Where we going? Right here?

HELFAND: Yeah, union leaders protect. Ok so you could make it.

LAMB: Ready?

HEFLAND: Oh, too fast, we got to go slow.

M1: Go slow on that one. Go back, go slow.

HEFLAND: OK, now you can go a little faster. That's a little too fast. OK, 00:49:00now here's the one that I'd like to get. OK, and not too fast, not too slow. Great. A little faster. Oh not too fast.

M1: I'm getting dizzy.

LAMB: Tell me about it.

HELFAND: Ok.

LAMB: (inaudible) stop?

HELFAND: Ok. Ok medium speed. Good. That's great.

LAMB: Dr. Pepper five—[break in video] Two hours ago.

HELFAND: I could sit here and do it.

LAMB: That's alright.

HELFAND: I could do it.

LAMB: Whatever.

HELFAND: Ok.

(silence 50:20 to end)

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