Ruby Belk Newell and Maryanne Belk Smith Interview 2

MARYANNE BELK SMITH: Aunt Dolly didn't have that many old pictures either.

RUBY BELK NEWELL: I know it.

SMITH: I went through hers one time.

GEORGE STONEY: I'm going to ask you ladies to talk about as loud as I'm talking now. It would help.

NEWELL: What do you want us to talk about? (laughter)

STONEY: Just whatever you're saying; just to make it a little louder.

SMITH: OK. He wants to hear everything you say.

STONEY: That's right.

NEWELL: This is the [Shadow?] Mill. I remember that. 'Cause we used to live right across the street in front of the office there.

STONEY: A little louder, ladies.

SMITH: Now these is like the houses they used to have on Pigrim Street.

NEWELL: Yeah, they sure did.

SMITH: What they called the "shotgun houses." Right across the street from Miss Honeycut. So...

NEWELL: I wonder if that's Charlie Knight?

STONEY: Could you show me that shotgun house once again?

SMITH: Oh.

STONEY: Uh-huh. And just tell us about it.

SMITH: It's a road; they used to have -- there was four wasn't it?

NEWELL: Yeah.

SMITH: There was four there, just about, just like that on Pigrim Street but they didn't have that type of yard. They did have a little bit of grass on the side.

STONEY: Do you know what's happening there in the photograph?

SMITH: Looks like to me they are getting water or milk. Look at there -- that looks like milk.

NEWELL: Getting groceries.

SMITH: Yeah but that's milk.

NEWELL: Uh-huh.

STONEY: What do you remember about that time?

SMITH: About that time when momma used to send me out to Covington's when I wasn't about five years old to get a quarter's worth of bologna (laughter) and go get the bologna and bring it back through the alleyway. There was an alleyway on the other side of the street across from where those shotgun houses 00:02:00was on Pigrim Street. We had to go through the alley and out the back of the houses. Then I got (inaudible) berries thrown at me and they would hit me. Forest Poke -- one of the Poke boys.

STONEY: Tell me what you remember best about your father.

SMITH: My daddy? Oh my daddy was a magnificent man I grant ya. My daddy was jokey, he was a good father.

NEWELL: He loved to pull pranks on ya.

SMITH: That's right. And he didn't touch his ears because he was ticklish. If you touch his ears, he'd smack you. He was a hard worker.

NEWELL: At first he'd have a fit and then he'd slap you. (laughter)

SMITH: He was a hard worker and he give us what he could afford to give us and if it wasn't for him some of us wouldn't have turned out like we did. (laughter)

NEWELL: Nope, I fear not.

HELFAND: Picture.

STONEY: OK now let's go to the picture.

HELFAND: Why don't you show them where it is?

STONEY: OK. Let's look at the picture of --

SMITH: The original one?

STONEY: The original picture. Yes. OK. We've got this and I wonder if you could go over and tell me who is who.

NEWELL: This is my father and this is me. (laughter) This is my mother. This is my twin brothers Amos and Andy, and this is Dorothy and my brother Bob that died -- he died a few years ago -- and this is Earl -- the one she was talking about a while ago -- and that is this. (laughter)

SMITH: Smart aleck.

STONEY: How did that picture get taken?

NEWELL: Uh. This guy -- his name was Kenneth Witsit -- he was a photographer in Charlotte -- and he came out and wanted to know if he could make a picture and I had been to town or somewhere and I just had dressed to go where I was going and I came back and they were there and he tore some places on the kids blue jeans 'cause he said the picture was going to be put in the paper in New York. So, after he got through, he left and we all went about our business but I didn't -- I don't know -- I wasn't up to par that day; I didn't want to have my picture made.

STONEY: Do you know why this photographer came to your family?

NEWELL: On account of the strike because they were having a strike. Besides all 00:05:00of these mouths to feed.

SMITH: Then too momma was pregnant here.

NEWELL: Yes, with our younger brother and we had a first cousin that lived with us and he happened to be there that day.

STONEY: What was your father doing?

NEWELL: You mean in the mill? He was running a tie-in machine where they tied the strings for the warps before they fixed them and put them on the looms.

STONEY: And what did he do in the union?

NEWELL: That I don't know. I don't know whether he had any dealing with his politics you never knew -- he was in politics but he didn't know anything about it because he worked for a lot of the guys that were running for different things. But he never talked about it. My daddy was -- he was a good man but he was kind of closed-mouth. He didn't go around spreading everything he knew 00:06:00around in the community.

STONEY: Do you think there was a reason for his being closed-mouthed?

NEWELL: Well, there could have been. I don't know because he never did talk about it.

SMITH: He didn't believe in telling people his problems, his troubles. You didn't know if something was wrong. That's something he didn't discuss.

NEWELL: He could be so sick that he could hardly stand up and you ask him how he felt and he said, "I feel fine. There's nothing wrong with me; I feel fine." Except the one time he really was sick in bed with the flu and his brother came in and walked up to the foot of the bed and he was one of these long-faced people anyway and he said, "John, I declare you look just like dad did just before he died." Daddy said, "You SOB" and he got up out of bed and wouldn't go back. (laughter)

SMITH: Ruby watch your language.

NEWELL: I don't care.

SMITH: He either went to work sick or well.

NEWELL: Yeah. Regardless.

SMITH: When he came out of that Louise Cotton Mill and come up that street at night, the water would be running off of him. There would be sopping wet daddy (laughter) and daddy had this roll of cloth around his waist because he would bring the cloth home and momma would make us slips and make us blouses --

NEWELL: Underpants.

SMITH: She'd get the ginghams -- she'd get the ginghams from what used to be called "short store," where you bought remnant pieces and she'd make shirts. That's where I remember her -- sitting at the sewing machine making shirts and blouses and skirts for us -- that's the way I remember momma when I 00:08:00was little. And setting there with her Pepsi Cola, her ice pick.

STONEY: Were you working in the mill at this time?

HELFAND: One second, excuse me.

NEWELL: Oh, no, I wasn't. Let's see -- yes I was because I was 16 when this was made and I went to work when I was 15 and-a-half so I was working there for six months when the picture was made.

STONEY: Do you remember how much you were making?

NEWELL: Uh. I think when I went to work there I was making like $9 a week and after they settled the strike I was drawing $12 -- about $12.40 I think it was.

HELFAND: Can I -- you know what -- George take this for a second.

STONEY: OK.

HELFAND: Are you ready? Read the description to us -- when we came across that picture that was the most true -- you know almost honest description that I had ever read and it was so thorough --

NEWELL: You mean this thing? "Here is J.L. Belk of Charlotte, North Carolina, a textile worker and his family of seven children. Belk operates what is known as a drawing in machine. Such operations are classified among those as a high skill; their wages for 30 hours being $13.50, less 75 cents for rent, house owned by the mill, leaving a net balance of $12.75 per week to feed and clothe this family of nine. A drawing in machine operator, with the assistance of a helper, who receives a weekly wage of $10.50 less rent for 30 hours is said to do the work formerly done by 18 or more workers at an average wage of $9 a week. Left to right the top right are Belk, his daughter Ruby 16, and the mother Miss Jessie Belk. Next comes Amos and Andy, 4-year-old twins. Center row -- in the 00:10:00bottom row are Dorothy 8, Robert 12, Earl 14 and Maryanne 3."

STONEY: So could you tell us once again how that picture got made looking right towards me when you do it?

SMITH: Look at him Ruby.

NEWELL: It was made by Kenneth Witsit, a photographer in Charlotte and he came out to get the picture to send to New York to be put into a paper up there to let them know how the people in the south were living during the strike.

STONEY: Now what else did your father do during the strike?

NEWELL: He went out -- he and one of his fellow workers -- his name was Carl Helms -- they would go down around to the country and people down there would 00:11:00give them canned goods and bushel baskets of green beans and corn -- or anything that they had that they had a little more than they could use -- and then once or twice a week they would go around to the bakeries in Charlotte and they would give them day old cakes and cookies and what not out of the bakeries and they gave them bread -- and they took them upstairs in Covington's Grocery and set it out there and let the people come and get what they wanted, or what they needed.

SMITH: You've got to remember he also worked on cars.

NEWELL: Oh yeah, he was a --

SMITH: -- mechanic.

NEWELL: -- mechanic. He worked in the yard. He cut people's hair -- he kept everyone on the hill's haircut. They'd come up on Saturday morning. They'd line up and he'd get a sheet and go out and set them up in a chair and cut their hair. He did his part; that's for darn sure.

STONEY: Did you know anything about his union activities?

NEWELL: Nope. I sure didn't.

STONEY: How do you feel about it now that you know what he did?

NEWELL: I'm proud of him, really. I'm proud of the fact that he thought enough of other people to go out and do the things that he did.

STONEY: Now why do you think he didn't tell you children about it at the time?

NEWELL: He just didn't want us to know it, I guess.

STONEY: Was there any kind of danger in the community that would've caused him to feel that way?

NEWELL: Not that I know of.

SMITH: Not at that time, I wouldn't think. That was a pretty good place to live. (laughter)

NEWELL: Yeah, it sure was.

STONEY: Tell us about the neighbors and how --

SMITH: Mr. [McSwain?].

NEWELL: Well one of our neighbors who lived directly across the street from us -- that was before the McSwain's moved in was Mr. and Mrs. Joe Simpson. And 00:13:00my mother had an operation on her face; she had sinus trouble and they operated on her face and the doctor instead of telling her to come back every day for nine days and wash that place out, he just forgot it, I presume and she -- the poison from that place settled in her left hip and she took to her bed and she was in bed for 21 weeks and he then -- he had quit work because she weighed -- she was 5'1" and she weighed 265 lbs. and he couldn't get anybody to lift her and she couldn't get out of bed to go -- she couldn't even be lifted up high enough to put a bed pan underneath her. We used old rags and newspapers and whatever and these people across the street would go and buy groceries and bring them over to us -- Mr. and Mrs. Simpson -- when they went to buy their 00:14:00groceries they'd buy groceries for us too.

HELFAND: You know what George? Let's take that picture out of that plastic and if one of you would hold it up then you could show us who's sitting where and point it out.

NEWELL: You can do that Maryanne.

SMITH: Who's sitting where? Wait a minute, I can't see --

STONEY: I've gotta get real close on it.

HELFAND: Can we get a wide shot of both of them? Of the three of them? Then we could do it twice.

STONEY: OK. Just a moment. Now you can go, yes.

SMITH: OK. This is John Belk, my father.

STONEY: Could you -- sorry -- could you be watching at the same time? OK. Good. Now start over.

NEWELL: I was thinking about something.

SMITH: John Belk, our father, and this is Ruby, the oldest sister. This is my mother, Jessie. This is Amos Belk and Andy, the twins.

STONEY: Tell how they got the names.

SMITH: They are named after Amos and Andy off the radio. They had a silver spoon given them by Amos and Andy off the radio. And this is Dorothy, one of our sisters; this is Bob, which we used to call him "RD." He never was known as Bob until he got married. This is the oldest brother, Earl, and this is the little girl, Maryanne.

HELFAND: Who's that?

SMITH: Maryanne.

HELFAND: Who's Maryanne?

SMITH: That's me. And then at the time my mother was pregnant with our little baby brother, Donnie, which is not a little baby anymore. He's a big boy.

STONEY: Now I'm going to ask you to do it exactly the same way again so I can get -- hold on the picture.

HELFAND: You can interrupt and talk.

STONEY: Take two.

SMITH: You can interrupt me, Ruby -- anytime. (laughter) This is my father, 00:16:00John Lee Belk, my oldest sister, Ruby; then my mother, Jessie Mae; then my twin brothers Amos and this is Andy over here.

STONEY: How did they get that name?

SMITH: From Amos and Andy off of the radio.

NEWELL: The doctor named them first, though.

SMITH: Well I said off of the radio, though. That's where he got it from. And this is one of my sisters, Dorothy; this is my brother Bob -- better known as "RD," and this is Earl, the oldest brother and this is Maryanne and this is the youngest sister, that's me. (laughter)

STONEY: Now tell us about that rip on the knee.

NEWELL: That's -- Jerry Witsit did that because they were split but not quite that bad -- so he wanted to make it little worse than it is, (laughter) so he just ripped them open.

STONEY: How do you feel about them now?

NEWELL: I think it's funny. (laughter)

SMITH: I kind of like it myself.

NEWELL: What you want to say?

HELFAND: Well it was really something, you know, for a family to decide they wanted to send a message to the north. Can you talk a little bit more about that?

NEWELL: Well the only thing I know about is that Jerry Witsit just appeared there one day and wanted to make a picture -- said he wanted to send it to New York to let the people know up there how the people around here were doing.

HELFAND: Why did they pick your family?

NEWELL: I have no idea. I don't know who sent him there or why he came there.

STONEY: And how did you get your copy of the picture?

SMITH: I gave it to her because I've got the original.

STONEY: How did you get the original?

SMITH: That is mine; my mother gave it to me.

STONEY: So the photographer brought --

SMITH: It was given -- brought back to my mother and father -- and she kept it 00:18:00-- and at the time I doubt it was brought back on a sheet like this because it's on a cardboard piece now.

STONEY: OK now.

SMITH: In color.

HELFAND: In color?

SMITH: Well it was what they called "color" then; it's not like red and -- (inaudible) but I'm honored I brought it for you to see it.

STONEY: Why don't you get them to look at the Howard Payne -- the stuff with Howard -- and I'll follow that around.

HELFAND: OK. This is a picture of Howard right over here. You know what, we could take them out. Is this cool George? You kind of understood -- you told me last time that your father's union activity was about helping to feed everybody so in a sense you did know about his union activity, didn't you?

NEWELL: That's the only thing I knew that he was helping to feed the people that were out -- all those people that were out of work -- you see they just put 00:19:00that stuff in that building there and everybody knew about it and if they wanted, they would go get it.

HELFAND: But you related to --

SMITH: Howard Payne.

HELFAND: Tell us about him.

SMITH: Which was this one. Uncle Howard --that's Uncle Howard.

NEWELL: It don't look like him.

HELFAND: Tell us about him.

SMITH: Ruby you talk.

NEWELL: No you tell them about Uncle Howard because I don't know too much about him.

SMITH: Well I don't know that much about Uncle Howard except that --

NEWELL: I didn't really -- when he was here before I didn't even know that he had been president of the union thing.

HELFAND: We're getting a problem with the sound George; it's a real problem, we can't do this.

STONEY: Why?

HELFAND: Because I'm hearing the ocean. (laughter) You were saying that until last time I came about Uncle Howard.

NEWELL: I didn't even know that he had been president of the -- uh -- union -- when you were here before. Nobody had ever told me that he was president of the union.

HELFAND: And there he is. (laughter)

SMITH: Yeah, there he is. He is our mother's brother -- one and only.

NEWELL: I didn't even realize that my granddaddy was involved as much as he was. When you were here before I didn't even realize he was involved in it.

HELFAND: Well what have you found out since then?

NEWELL: I haven't found out anything. I haven't talked to anybody about it.

SMITH: I don't know anybody that's living now that could actually tell you -- I guess Forest Green could.

NEWELL: Did you ever talk to Jesse McCoy? You told me when you were here before that you were leaving to go to talk to Forest Green.

HELFAND: I did.

NEWELL: Well, there's --

SMITH: McCoy.

NEWELL: Jess McCoy.

HELFAND: Is he still alive?

NEWELL: Jessie is, yes.

HELFAND: He is? We'd love to talk to Jessie McCoy.

NEWELL: Now Wyle Sanders is dead.

SMITH: Wyle has been dead for quite a while and Mr. Wilson is dead.

NEWELL: Yeah.

SMITH: And grandpa is dead.

NEWELL: Yeah. Well Howard is dead now.

HELFAND: Can you tell us about that picture a little? What does this picture tell you?

SMITH: This picture tells me that my grandpa was a good looking man. (laughter) He really was. Uncle Howard was a pretty good looking man, a pretty good feller. That's momma's only brother.

HELFAND: Why don't you read the caption?

SMITH: What you got on here? You want it all now? (inaudible) in Charlotte, North Carolina. A last minute picket meeting at Charlotte, North Carolina, this 00:22:00group of men is seen in the home of one of the strikers, textiles, as they met Sunday afternoon, September the 2nd to plan -- to --

NEWELL: Formulate.

SMITH: -- to formulate plans for a successful guarding strikes, right in performing pickets due at the Louise Mill-- that's ours -- to the -- left to right standing is J.C. Keller, J.G. Norrell, Wyle Sanders -- those are the ones standing. Left to right seating is J.M. Johnson, vice president J.E. Barr, John Howard Payne, President of Local 202 Union Textile Workers and also President Western North Carolina Textile council, J.F. McCoy, H.G. Wilson, T.H. Knight, 00:23:00H.A. Payne, F.L. Greene, six meetings were held daily at the strike threatened in the homes of workers of all mills.

STONEY: So you don't remember -- do you remember any meetings in your home?

NEWELL: We never had any meetings at our house.

STONEY: Now when you were working in the mills, how long did you work in the mills?

NEWELL: Well I went to work when I was 15 and-a-half and I got married when I was 20 and I quit because I got pregnant shortly after that.

SMITH: And I was sweet -- I didn't work in the cotton mill. (laughter)

STONEY: Why didn't you work in the cotton mill?

SMITH: 'Cause I seen what they went through in the cotton mill and I didn't want to work in no cotton mill.

NEWELL: She worked in the hosiery mill.

SMITH: I worked in the hosiery mill and I worked at [Cress'?] Dime Store and I 00:24:00went to work making slips at a slip factory, but to work down in the cotton mill I said, "If the good Lord let me live, I'd never do it. No." I'd see them come out of there sweating and wet -- take my daddy's supper to him down behind the mill and he'd come out of there soaking wet -- no. Now I went in there and done some of the things (laughter); he was trying to teach me, but I didn't like it so I didn't do it. All of them did -- all of them, but me.

NEWELL: How long after that did Howard quit and go into the police force?

SMITH: Hmm. Probably I was about 10-years-old or so because he was a cop first, then he went to desk sergeant and then he retired from desk sergeant.

NEWELL: Well actually he quit because he was going to run for sheriff, I think.

SMITH: Yeah.

NEWELL: And he lost that so he went to Florida and went to work for Pan Am down there.

HELFAND: Ruby you were working during this strike, weren't you? I mean you had just started to work before this happened. Can you tell us about that?

NEWELL: The only thing I can tell you about it was I started -- learned to play the guitar and I'd take my guitar and a bunch of us would go down there and play music and dance -- cut up and act like idiots.

STONEY: I'm afraid I'm going to ask you to tell that story again because you didn't say where you were going -- you'd say the picket line. Could you start again?

NEWELL: This was just people that was -- had gathered up at the mill -- and we'd go down there and play music and sing and they'd dance and cut up and 00:26:00go on down at the Louise Mill -- in the front yard of the Louise Mill.

HELFAND: Was this during the strike?

NEWELL: Yeah.

HELFAND: Aha. Wow. So you weren't working, either. You were not going to work; you were on strike, too. So tell us a little bit about that. What was going on?

NEWELL: There was nothing going on. Just those people would gather up down at the mill and stand around and talk and sing and holler and carry on.

SMITH: And then people would gather at your houses and set and sing and the children would play hide and seek and jump rope and hop scotch --

NEWELL: Sit out in the yard and play marbles. (laughter)

SMITH: -- all this good crap jazz.

STONEY: Do you remember what songs you sang?

NEWELL: No. I remember we sit out there and played for the Chinese breakdown for about an hour-and-a-half one time. (laughter)

HELFAND: The Chinese Breakdown?

NEWELL: Uh-huh.

SMITH: She hasn't never heard that, Ruby.

HELFAND: How does that go, Ruby? (laughter)

NEWELL: You wouldn't understand if I tell you what the sing --

SMITH: Try.

NEWELL: (humming) It's over and over and over the same thing.

HELFAND: What do you sing?

NEWELL: You don't say anything -- it's the music.

HELFAND: Now what kind of opposition was there to all these people not going to work?

NEWELL: None. Nobody bothered them. They didn't have fights or stuff like that.

SMITH: You actually--In that section of Louise Avenue, Belmont Avenue, Pigrim Street, Parsons Street, almost at Central Avenue -- you had some good people there. They were all friendly, they were all helpful, they helped each other, they was there for you if you needed them, if you were sick, or some kid got 00:28:00hurt, they were there no matter what. Most of the mothers stayed home and took care of the kids while the others went out -- the fathers went out to work or the older children went out to work. So we lived in a good neighborhood but you wouldn't believe it if you go over and take a picture of it now. That you should have; you'd enjoy that one; take one of Louise Avenue, Pigrim Street, Parsons Street.

NEWELL: I'll tell you; frankly I wouldn't advise you to go down there because I wouldn't go. (laughter) It's all black and you don't never know -- there's been several shootings, killings over on Pigrim Street.

SMITH: You just would not believe it. That's why you look at these houses -- now if you could've seen them before they moved the blacks in there -- when 00:29:00these houses was sold to the mill workers, they put -- we didn't have bathrooms inside -- none of us did.

NEWELL: They didn't have sinks in the kitchen.

SMITH: You had to go across the street to get water; you went down the path to go to the bathroom -- and then when they bought them they all redid the outsides of them, did the insides, put wallpaper, done everything, beautiful homes after that. All those old people took care of those homes until they started dying off and some having to move and so forth and so on, and then when they started renting they look worse now than when we were kids and lived in 'em. Although we could see through the floors. (laughter) Scrub the floors and the water goes through the bottom. (laughter)

STONEY: Do you remember when you first moved in there?

SMITH: That's where I was born at. I was born when momma lived there. Now Ruby, you was born over at Hoskins, wasn't you?

NEWELL: Yeah, no, yeah.

SMITH: Ruby was born at Hoskins, but I was born -- me and Amos and Andy and Donnie -- all was born on from Louise Ave.

STONEY: So Ruby could you go through the improvements in the house from what it was like when you first started -- you first remembered it -- and how it improved right along. And if you could -- how old were you kind of when each one of those things happened.

NEWELL: Daddy and them didn't buy that house until after I left did they?

SMITH: No, you was gone. Already married and gone, so there hadn't been anything done to it.

STONEY: I was thinking when you first moved in you had no water.

NEWELL: No.

STONEY: Could you start right from the first?

NEWELL: We had a -- there was a cord hanging down from the middle of the ceiling and at the end of the cord there was a light bulb and you pull the chain and turn the light on. And nothing like receptacles in the wall; there was no such thing. The walls inside were wood up so far -- and then plaster from the middle 00:31:00of the room up and it would take a heck of a lot -- and most everybody had bed bugs. Then we didn't know what roaches were but after the bed bugs left we got run with roaches, so...

STONEY: What about water and plumbing and so forth?

NEWELL: Well when we were living at 1241 Louise Avenue it was just right across the street to the water spigot but before then when anywhere else we moved we had to walk as far as sometimes -- from here to the end of the street to get a water spigot -- and I mean cold water -- you wouldn't have such thing as hot water. And dish pans to wash dishes in. Kitchen cabinets -- metal kitchen cabinets to put the dishes in. We had a closet that daddy put shelves in; 00:32:00that's where we kept our surface food when we had canned goods and stuff like that; we kept it in closets.

SMITH: We used the fireplace for heat.

NEWELL: Yeah, we had a fireplace.

SMITH: Used coal in the fireplace. Then we had a refrigerator -- an icebox -- to put the ice in. We had ice delivered.

NEWELL: And everybody had a pan to put under the icebox to catch the water. My daddy got smart so he pulled out the icebox, bore a hole in the floor, put a funnel in it and the water went on out underneath the house.

STONEY: Could you tell us about when they put in the bathrooms?

NEWELL: No because I wasn't living there. (laughter) I can't tell you anything about that.

SMITH: They closed the place off on the back bedroom, but you had a bedroom and it went off onto the porch because the back porch was long and -- I don't know 00:33:00what would you say about 6x11 or 6x12 they built that. Now that would be the picture you would like to see too, because when they fixed the bathroom -- after they fixed it -- my daddy hung his head out the window with a roll of toilet paper to let everyone know we had a toilet. (laughter) And that's when they started -- that's how daddy got his back hurt because they dug a ditch to put the water lines in and he had to be at work at like 5 o'clock in the morning and he would go out to go to work -- and he fell in the ditch and that's how he hurt his back. But he worked on until they had -- they closed the mill down -- then we fought for about three years to get his social security for him because they didn't want to give it to him and we already have five doctors' signature that he was disabled to work; he couldn't have worked. So we finally got it started but then they -- go ahead.

HELFAND: Can I interrupt you?

SMITH: Go ahead.

HELFAND: George maybe you could tell them a little bit about what we're doing 00:34:00with these pictures come from. These pictures -- I'm just wondering what you think about seeing your family -- I mean seeing your family in these kind of pictures and the people you know from your community.

SMITH: Oh my, this is a kick for me because I like to keep them anyway.

NEWELL: You should see the stuff she has. She has books, books and even everybody in our family who's died she's got it in a book in her house and any time you go in her house she writes down in one of her books the day that you came there, what date was, what the day was, and what time it was and how long you stayed, and when you left.

SMITH: It's really a lot of fun. Don't let her jazz you. And if I go around and one of the other kids has got an old picture they're either going to let me borrow it or they're going to give me 00:35:00that one because it's going in my books.

STONEY: Now what we're trying to do is to make movies and tapes and still pictures and records of --

HELFAND: George I'm just going to focus on you and you can tell me that again, OK?

(inaudible; one of the mics went out so it was hard to hear)

HELFAND: I guess I was right the first time.

SMITH: Just like when grandpa was standing with momma. His time was spent between Aunt Dolly's house and Uncle Howard's house and momma's but he preferred to stay with my mother because she had all the kids, see, and on the back before they built the bathroom in -- like I said the porch was long and it had a -- they had made a shelf out there -- and you had to go across the street to bring water over there in water buckets and then we filled up four wash tubs and a wash pot for clothes to be washed because they boiled the clothes then and scrubbed them on a rub board and then rinsed them, and then he would sit out there out back and he raised tomatoes -- "tommy-toes" -- and he would raise his tommy-toes and us little kids would go steal momma's cold biscuits and go out there and steal grandpa's tommy-toes and he'd say, "(inaudible)." 00:37:00He's stubborn but he was a very special man, really. He liked his beer and his liquor and his beer and whatever have you. A lot of times he'd go down to the corner down there and he'd get a little polluted and we'd have to go get him and bring him back home. But he didn't bother nobody and see now my son, my youngest son, has got a watch that Uncle Howard won gambling. Uncle Howard won it gambling. I did get him to tell me that story. He won it gambling and he gave it to my grandpa. Well grandpa was 75 when he died in '47 so he gave 00:38:00it to my daddy -- my dad's been dead 13 years so you can sort of figure out from the time Uncle Howard gave him the watch until it got back to my youngest son and it didn't lose time; it kept perfect time. It keeps perfect time.

STONEY: Well let me tell you what we're trying to do with all of this. We're trying to do for the whole southeast and for textile workers all over the place what you're doing for your family. That is that we're making a big collection of oral history tapes, pictures and so forth to go in the different museums. For example, we were just over in Gastonia this afternoon talking with the mayor and the fellow who runs the museum over there about what they're doing and they will get copies of what we're doing that would go in 00:39:00that museum you see. So that it's not that we don't trust you, but we know that if you just count on individuals to keep in their attics, things begin to happen. So what'd we like you to do is both encourage you to do what you are doing and also put it into a public place where everybody can get to it.

HELFAND: George why are we colleting these specific pictures? Wait a second, I'm gonna --

SMITH: Right now I've got eight packs of pictures that's got to go into albums; I've got to go get two more albums. I like to keep -- OK like in my death books I call 'em -- they're my death books -- that's where I keep my obituaries or thank you notes where I've been to funerals or whatever have you -- of going back to where people who lived on Louise Avenue, the older people that my father was friends with here which he lost his last best friend Thursday 00:40:00down here. But all of his friends he had up on Louise Avenue when they's come out I try to get the obituary so I'd have it in there then I'm trying to get all the death certificates of like my grandmothers, my grandfathers, my little brothers and sisters that are dead -- because there is three kids dead so they would support what you see in that picture. There's two boys and a girl dead besides the other boy that died six years ago. But keeping up with this it gives my children something to go back to and fall onto and to know what my relatives had what they died from, my mother and daddy. So if they go to a doctor and they say well, "Does so-and-so run in your family?" "Yeah, my grandmother -- my mother's mother had so-and-so, my father's had so-and-so." So it comes in handy and she gave me -- like I said -- the 00:41:00original copy of this and the picture of grandpa's wife -- Grandma Payne which I'm supposed to look like -- and one of Grandma Payne on the beach before -- that's before she ever died -- then I have her bible that has all of their names -- well all of our names -- our names, our ages, what my little brothers and sisters died from, and so forth and so on, so all they got to do is go back over the records and I keep adding to my bible, plus my category of books is because.

STONEY: Well one of the things we're trying to do is exactly the same thing, but for the whole community of textile workers and we are particularly interested in this 1934 material because it was a time when textile workers demonstrated that they really had the courage to stand up for themselves and 00:42:00there's a common belief among a lot of southerners that textile workers can't stand up for themselves.

SMITH: Now didn't Gert and that -- all the [Gases?] work down in the mill.

NEWELL: I know it.

SMITH: And Gert and -- Helen didn't; Helen was like myself -- was determined we wasn't going to work in no cotton mill. We was going to do something else, but there was Gert and um --

NEWELL: Lorraine.

SMITH: Yeah, now Gert and Lorraine and the other sister -- uh -- cause now Bunk is dead, Jack is dead, now Paul, Paul is still living. So now like Gert and them, they would have more -- [Loke?] and them would have more -- because Loke 00:43:00-- is she the same age? You're a little older.

NEWELL: I think a bit older than me.

STONEY: How old would that be?

NEWELL: Me? I'm 73.

SMITH: So Loke is about 75 or 76.

NEWELL: If I make it to August I'll be 74.

SMITH: She's 75 or 76.

NEWELL: What does it say on the back?

SMITH: Those are the Cloningers.

NEWELL: Those are in Belmont.

STONEY: That's in Belmont. Now did you people mix much with the people in different cotton mill villages?

SMITH: Just like the one up on 36th Street -- not 36 -- what is it? Yeah it is 36.

NEWELL: Highland Port.

SMITH: Highland and uh, uh, the other one -- on 36th --

NEWELL: Johnson Mill and Highland Mill.

SMITH: Now y'all did over in Hoskins when y'all was living on Hoskins and daddy was working at Hoskins.

STONEY: Do you recall any time when people were made to move out of mill houses for any reason?

SMITH: No because they didn't make us move. If you could afford to buy 'em once they decided to start selling the mill houses -- if you could afford to buy 'em, you bought 'em.

STONEY: I wondered when you were working in the mills, when the company owned the mills --

NEWELL: I never heard of anybody being put out.

SMITH: Not me.

STONEY: Let me show you what I mean here. Uh, this happened to a lot of people.

HELFAND: George you're stepping on the microphone cord. (laughter)

STONEY: Are these eviction pictures here?

HELFAND: Could you just pick up your left foot? Thanks.

STONEY: Are these eviction pictures here, Judy?

HELFAND: They're in there.

STONEY: Let's see if I can't find them. Yeah, for example. This is in LaGrange, Georgia, I think, where these people got put out in the street.

NEWELL: For heaven sakes.

SMITH: I don't recall them ever putting any of 'em out or even hearing daddy and them talk about making somebody move or throwing somebody out of the house.

NEWELL: I never heard of that because there's one thing certian and two things sure -- they took your rent out of your pay. You didn't take out that debt first.

STONEY: And what other things did they take out of your pay?

NEWELL: That's all until they started social security.

STONEY: There wasn't a company store then?

NEWELL: Un-uh. Not at Louise.

SMITH: 'Cause we had Covington's out there and Spoons Ice Cream and the other grocery story.

NEWELL: LK Farrells.

SMITH: LK Farrells. The other one was right below where [Latens?] moved in and started to finish the bakery. The first grocery store -- I can't think of who that man was that run that --

STONEY: What did you do for credit?

SMITH: You didn't have no credit. You got a stack of meat that big for a quarter. Gee whiz. I mean when we went to store --

NEWELL: But Covingtons did have--You could buy on credit.

SMITH: They had credit, yeah.

NEWELL: And pay by the week and they had this ticket that they give you whenever you paid your grocery bill. On the back of the grocery bill it said, "You need your money and I need mine and if we both get ours, it would sure be fine. But if you get yours and all mine, too, what the hell am I going to do?" (laughter)

STONEY: Did you get that?

HELFAND: Yes sir.

STONEY: That's a great one. See if you could repeat that.

NEWELL: You need your money and I need mine.

STONEY: Just tell us --

HELFAND: Wait a second, wait a second, I'm just going to make sure --

STONEY: It's on the ticket behind the --

HELFAND: I'll tell you when. OK.

NEWELL: It's Covington's Grocery, NJ Covington's Grocery and the ticket that they gave you at the end of the week --

HELFAND: Could you start that again, I'm sorry? (laughter)

NEWELL: You're slower than I am. It's NJ Covington's Grocery store on the corner of Belmont Avenue and Pigrim Street and they ran a credit there -- you could have a credit there –

SMITH: A charge.

NEWELL:--charge your groceries for a week -- and then when you paid they gave you this ticket. On the back of the ticket it said, "You need your money and I need mine. If we both get ours it would sure be fine. But if you get yours 00:48:00and hold mine too, what the hell am I going to do?"

SMITH: She's liking this.

HELFAND: Now George why don't you explain why those folks got evicted.

STONEY: Well these people got evicted because they joined the union and uh went out on strike, and a great many people went out on strike but they selectively picked at some to frighten them so they wouldn't join later.

NEWELL: As far as I know -- as far back as I can remember -- nobody was ever put out of Louise Mill. If they moved it was of their own accord. I know we moved several times but we were just moving from Louise to Hoskins and Hoskins back to Louise.

SMITH: No we went to Pigrim Street.

NEWELL: I'm talking about mill wise.

SMITH: Well I mean daddy was still in the mill house on Pigrim Street.

NEWELL: Yes we lived on Pigrim Street, Williams Avenue, about six different houses on Louise Avenue.

SMITH: And then back around to Louise Avenue.

STONEY: How did you feel about moving so often?

NEWELL: It didn't bother me.

SMITH: See I didn't have to do that. (laughter)

NEWELL: That's one way to clean up your house because you got rid of a lot of junk that had accumulated.

STONEY: I lived in the same place since 1963. I'd hate to move. I'm a pack rat like you.

SMITH: I love it. I just love it myself.

HELFAND: OK.

NEWELL: I've got news for you. We've been living in this house 44 years. We moved here in 1948.

HELFAND: OK. We need to --

NEWELL: We bought the house and when we got it we got it for $5,750 and paid for it $47 a half a month.

M1: That's where a lot of (inaudible) an hour.

NEWELL: And when we bought this house we was making but $69.38.

M1: Not $12, $12 and something a week.

NEWELL: Making $69.38 when we moved here.

SMITH: What are you doing? (laughter)

STONEY: You were saying that you didn't want to work in the cotton mill. Could you tell us about why?

SMITH: Because I didn't want to work in that hot place, that rackety place, that was undoubtedly the noisiest --

M1: Cotton flying --

SMITH: Cotton flying everywhere. Everybody's clothes was sopping was. And they come out of there and -- un-uh. I looked at it because I had to take daddy's lunch and I'd see them poor women coming out of that place wringing wet clothes on -- no. I will not work no cotton mills, and I didn't either.

STONEY: Now did it have anything to do with the fact that some people might have 00:51:00called you "lint heads?"

SMITH: Nope, nope, nope. That didn't bother me. They'd call you -- you went in anyplace in town and met somebody and they found out you was from the cotton mill -- and they called you from the cotton mill hill, you see -- but that was no big deal because half of the people that lived in -- I'd say within a 100 mile radius -- was cotton mill workers, their children would come from the cotton mills, and we all wore the same kind of clothes, really. Our parents mostly made 'em, somebody outgrew something and give it to you, so no big deal. No it had nothing to do with that, nothing. I just seen what they went through and I said, "I won't do it."

NEWELL: You don't remember the little black kids coming down the road in front of the house and calling us "poor white trash" do you? (laughter)

SMITH: No, I don't quite remember them.

NEWELL: Of course we had a few words about them before they called us that.

SMITH: They probably -- the oldest ones probably the ones who started it -- is what they did.

M1: You didn't see many of them black people then.

SMITH: No we didn't have that many that lived around our area that close now. Like we had a black lady that come and help did the washing because momma wasn't able to go out and do it and she'd go out and boil -- we'd carry water up on Sunday night, she'd come on Monday and put the clothes in there, get 'em boiling under the wash pot and then she'd get 'em out of there and put them in the rinse water and rub-a-dub-dub on the boards, you know. So I mean we had clean clothes, we had plenty to eat, if it wasn't nothing but fat back and gravy and biscuits. That was food.

NEWELL: Beans and taters

SMITH: Then maybe we'd come in and have a pot of beans, a cake or corn bread. Sometimes we was lucky to get fried potatoes or stewed potatoes with (inaudible) 00:53:00in them that was good. And then when we went to school, we'd walk 12 blocks to school -- rain, sleet, snow, whatever -- holes in our shoes, maybe didn't have a coat heavy enough to wear -- but we had enough to keep us warm. OK we went to school and I've came home many days from lunch, but see I was the smallest of the group, so they put me on a special diet, Mr. Hills cows, yes. And at six o'clock in the morning I had to have a cup of hot milk straight from the cow, now. (laughter) Momma had the purtiest flowers you ever seen because the milk went in her flowers. My mother loved flowers but I would pour the milk in there but then at school you see I got my lunch, plus I got a special meal in between, you see. I was luckier than they was. Then I get to come home and get some more at home little goodies at home. But then I stayed 00:54:00more over at Hoskins with Aunt Blanche -- which was my daddy's sister -- and I got to go over and do what I wanted to do at her house. They would take me to the beach because I was the littlest one. Squirt atomizers on her walls and so forth and so on, so we were happy kids. I mean we fought among ourselves, especially me and --

NEWELL: We had fun.

SMITH -- the five boys because I was raised up with five boys; three older and one littler. Well the biggest ones thought they were going to be smart, they could beat me up. Well they could for a while before daddy told me he was going to whip me if I let Forest Poke at me anymore. He should have never told me that because then I fought Amos and Andy and Earl and Donnie and all of 'em 00:55:00and I learned how to be mean.

STONEY: What kind of education did you get?

SMITH: I went to the eighth grade -- as high as I went. I told momma, "I'll go to work if you let me quit school."

NEWELL: She beat me by two years.

SMITH: Besides she said, "Well if you find a job -- "and I had to tell a lie because see I wasn't old enough, so I went out and went over to [Garcrest?] which they made slips and I told a lie that I was 18 years old. By the time I got through dressing (laughter) so I got a job over there and then I worked there for a year and then left there and went to [Cressa's?] and that's when I married my husband and then I went back to Garcrest and went to work there and then I decided that wasn't enough money so I went into the hosiery mills because you could make better money in the hosiery mills at that time.