Robert Donahue Interview 1

(tone)

ROBERT DONAHUE: Well, it wasn't easy. (laughter) They, um -- now there's a lot of these names that I -- I've never -- I know where they are and know 'em, but I didn't have anything to do the organizing. Whitney, Newberry, I know those, I organized it. Um, Pacolet Mills, I was there some, Spartanburg, Spartan Mills. Camp, I don't know Camp. [Mansfield?], Ga-- Gaffney, Black, I 00:01:00don't know, Clifton, Converse, Spartanburg, Valley Forge, Drayton, Clifton, Gaffney, Winsboro, that was, um, I organized that by myself. Yeah, I know all these places.

JUDITH HELFAND: What -- what do you think about when you, when you say all of those mills in South Carolina that you helped organize?

DONAHUE: Um, well, I had a list. Uh, and, uh, we didn't think that's many at that time. I mean, uh, 'cause we -- we wanted more 'n those. But all these is, uh, where I organized. As you say, these, uh, they had a charter. Oh, yeah.

HELFAND: Now, I'm gonna ask you some questions about you on organizing, and when I do, could you take your glasses off? OK, yeah.

DONAHUE: All right.

M1: Judy, I can hear a lot of paper rustling.

HELFAND: OK, well, you know --

(break in video)

M1: Tape's rolling.

HELFAND: OK. So, could you tell me some about Spartanburg County where you were doing, you know, I know you worked at Inman Mills and I know you were a volunteer organizer. So, could you tell me something about that?

DONAHUE: Well, um, I wasn't a volunteer for long. They had my sympathy.

M1: Turn right.

HELFAND: I'm sorry. OK. We're gonna start that again. And if you could use the word organizer, you know, take my question and put it into your answer, that would be really helpful.

DONAHUE: Yeah, um, but I wasn't, uh, I didn't start off 'cause I worked in the plant. And I didn't start off as an organizer. That came later. And 00:04:00incidentally, it came after I got, I got fired at Inman Mill because of my affiliation with them individuals. And, uh, so the Labor Board put me back to work. And, uh, it was, uh, well, they didn't want me, and I didn't want them. And so, uh, once I went back to work, in a very short time, I quit. And then that's when my organizing days started. The international president came 00:05:00down to see me and asked me about helping 'em out. And I agreed, and, uh, and then they made me an organizer. And that's how I got into the field.

HELFAND: Now, what was it like to be organizing and right there in Spartanburg and in the county and in those towns where, you know, you'd been working as a mill worker and now you were helping to organize a union?

DONAHUE: Well, um, I didn't start, um, organizing the Inman Mill. We put somebody else there. Now, I made their meetings. Uh, in fact, I was elected president of that local during that time. Uh, but it's, uh, I knew a lot of 00:06:00people and, I got very good friends. So I thought better it's me be someplace else. Let them get somebody else in here. That was my philosophy.

HELFAND: Now, I came across a list. Could you, in fact, could you tell me some of the -- I know that there was -- could you tell me about some of the local unions there in Spartanburg that were really, you know, pretty strong. You know, could you talk a little bit about -- could you name, you know, Pacolet and Clifton and whoops?

M1: Ooh.

DONAHUE: Oh, wait a minute.

HELFAND: You OK? OK.

DONAHUE: Um --

HELFAND: Your mill?

DONAHUE: Well, we had, um, we had several, and a good many local unions that 00:07:00were very strong that also, uh, furnished a lot of, uh, organizing work. They sent people out. They, uh, the plant would send 25 or 30 people to the location, mill that we were organizing to make it, contact the people and tell 'em what we're -- what it was all about. Uh, Spartan Mills was, Pacolet, uh, were very strong. Um, and, uh, not at first, uh, but later, Inman became a pretty strong local. That's where I had been. (noise)

HELFAND: Wonderful, thank, you. We're just gonna take one second. (break in 00:08:00video) -- while that NRA was going in and what you were doing. Because last time, you told me that you would tell them what the workload should be, and then they'd stretch them out anyway, is that right?

DONAHUE: No, not completely.

HELFAND: OK.

DONAHUE: Um, they, uh, (clears throat), I was doing very different studies, weight of a yarn, uh, and threads.

HELFAND: Yeah?

DONAHUE: And, uh --

HELFAND: Measuring the yarn and then that other stuff, it's too technical for us.

DONAHUE: OK.

HELFAND: But what's interesting to us is that you were doing that at the same time that the stretch-out was occurring.

DONAHUE: Well, it, uh, the stretch-out was in process all way, had already stretched out a lot of stuff. Um, but we'd make a study of what the 00:09:00person's doing. And, uh, what time she had working time, and time off. If she stopped, we took that off. That is, so, uh, we were trying to get at least 10 percent, uh, rest time, or 15. Uh, (coughs) so while I was making those studies, uh, I made my -- figured out all of the time that she working and what time that she had, uh, doing something else and that was -- and I turned off all of my figures to the -- to the plant. And I never did-- they were complete. Tell me what this person did. Um, now, I don't know what they did with them 00:10:00'cause I didn't get 'em back. It's theirs. And, uh, and I know that, uh, uh, now, that when they did make out some of -- they used my, some of my figures to, uh, to make the job, give her more job to do. Uh, but I wasn't in on it.

HELFAND: Now, what I'm gonna do is just, um, tell -- um, it seems to me that you were -- can we stop for a second?

(break in video)

DONAHUE: -- not universal, all, I mean, that during that time ever since they've been running, they'd change the different workloads. And, uh, what we're doing, what I was doing, and asked to do by the company, is to find out 00:11:00how much time they have, spare time they have. And I gave them all my figures. Now, what they did with 'em, God knows, uh, but they, they had, uh, what they could, could move it up or down. Now, and I don't know whether they used that for that purpose or not. Now, I want to be clear on that.

HELFAND: Do you mean, you don't know if they used your numbers for the stretch-out or not, is that what you're saying?

DONAHUE: For the stretch-out. Yeah, I don't know that that, uh, but they had to have these figures like mine. They had to do it or -- to get that done.

HELFAND: OK.

DONAHUE: They didn't, uh, give, they didn't, uh, what they did with 'em, they never told me.

HELFAND: Now, the reason that you became, that you got involved with the union was because, you told me that the company -- you were a time study man. You were working for the superintendent's office and then --

DONAHUE: Working out of the super --

HELFAND: Working out of the superintendent's office, can you close that just – (break in video) and then, so you're said that you're saying that that, there was a new law in place?

DONAHUE: Well, that they had, uh, the right to do this, you know. I mean, the, uh, employees had a right to protest. And (coughs), so they, it's hard to, to explain, uh, but what I did. But what I did was to find out actually their full workload of what, who was the time study. And I turned off, turned over all 00:13:00those figures to the superintendent. And I never did get 'em, and I didn't expect 'em back. But I don't know what they did with 'em.

HELFAND: And how did you get involved with the union?

DONAHUE: Well, there's, uh, I had a lot of friends that had joined the union and was in the union. And, uh, so I -- I just -- I think it was through the, uh, friendship that, and it, uh, everybody knew it, wasn't trying to hide it. And, uh, so right closely, soon after that, I -- I kind of felt the heat that 00:14:00things wasn't exactly right. And, uh, and then my job was abolished. And, um, then they gave me other jobs and to work on. And I, as I told you last week, uh, when we talked last, that, uh, I was assigned to different sections of the plant. I was assigned in to the weaving department. And the, uh, foreman in that shop, he placed the workers. Now, they had a lot of spare help. And 00:15:00they would all come down in the morning where -- and he would put, give everybody that was there, get a -- find a job for 'em. And those he couldn't, he said, you can go home. So there's times that then they started saying he couldn't find anything for me. And I went home. Well, it was very clear to me what had happened, in my mind. Uh, so it went on to, uh, I think that what really helps that, that, me, was he said, uh, one day, he said, "I don't have anything." And the job that I was doing was like, uh, a mechanic. I was a loom fixer. Uh, and I did various jobs. Uh, (coughs) and he 00:16:00said, "I don't have anything for you today. The only thing I got that is a-sweepin. You can sweep, if you want to." And, uh, that upset me. I'm not that, I wasn't a -- I was more of a mechanic than I was a sweeper. So that's the -- uh, I told him to go to hell. I, uh, and I don't use that a lot, but, you know, I just felt that bad and he was, uh, humiliating me to that point where it just hurt. And I walked out. And, uh, so he said, "Don't come back. You're fired." So I knew what it was. And I'm, uh, anyway I 00:17:00went out. And a lot of things happened then. Uh, the, uh, people in the union came to see me and wanted to do a thing. And I said, "No, I don't think it, I don't want, they don't want me to work here. I don't want to work here." And, uh, so then we, uh, uh, the international, president of international union came down to see me. And I had met him before and I knew him. And he, he wanted to hire me. And, uh, I said, uh, "I'd like to get this thing straightened out here." Uh, and he, then he said, "Well, I think we can take this to the board and have a hearing on it and ask that you be put 00:18:00back to work 'cause you're discriminated against." Um, so, um, I agreed to it. And we had a board hearing. There's a couple of guys from Washington came down and we had the hearing. And then they got the answer, um, back that, um, this board was --

HELFAND: Excuse me.

(break in video)

M1: Tape's rolling.

HELFAND: OK, so you were telling me, um, that you agreed with the union for this board hearing?

DONAHUE: And they had held the hearing. And we got notice that I'd been 00:19:00discriminated against and the company had to put me back to work. They notified the company that, to put me back to work. And um, so I went back to work. But things were not like they had been before. I mean, the air was different, you know, and, uh, and I was a traitor or something another. And I knew I felt it, and I knew my time was, uh, that I was gonna get fired again. That, uh, so, I worked on, I don't know, it was a few days, and I decided to quit. That, uh, 00:20:00I had won my case, that I had been discriminated, and before it happened again, I was gonna quit. And I quit. And, um, and then that's when they, uh, I had an offer to come with the mediation service.

HELFAND: OK. Talk, we won't really focus too much on that. We're gonna focus on this, this earlier part of, um, organizing?

DONAHUE: OK.

HELFAND: So, could you, let's go back to the period of time. I know that, um, you stopped working and started organizing first, didn't you?

DONAHUE: Yeah.

HELFAND: OK. So, um, do you know what? Do you think we could ask those folks in this office to not –

(break in video)

DONAHUE: Get back to work.

HELFAND: OK. And this was, this was before the general textile strike, wasn't it?

DONAHUE: Uh, yeah.

HELFAND: OK. So, 'cause I know before you'd said you'd become, you became, you ultimately, you -- so once you let the plant, you joined the union and got very active, right?

DONAHUE: Right.

HELFAND: So, could you, so once you were fired and you left, that's when you became very active in the union.

DONAHUE: All right.

HELFAND: And you started organizing and had a relationship to the international.

DONAHUE: Right.

HELFAND: OK. So could we start from that point? I left the -- in that I decided, you know, the heat came up, I decided to leave the job and that's when I got very involved with the union, could you start from there for me?

DONAHUE: OK.

HELFAND: OK, and include my words, because it's -- it's your relationship to the international, you know, that, what some of the organizing you were doing that's so interesting to us.

DONAHUE: Um, well, after -- a few days after the -- uh, I left the company, quit, uh, (cough) I gave a lot of thought about what I wanted to do. And in the meantime, I had an opportunity to go with the international union. And, uh, uh, which I did. And, uh, my base was around Spartanburg. And in the number of mills around Spartanburg, and also including, uh, a time or two, I went back to Inman Mills, but I never did do anything really down at the mill. I didn't really make any speech or, uh, appearance. I left that bygone be bygone. And, 00:23:00uh, uh, so we -- we'd -- I went into full-time organizing and, uh, uh, we started on plants that we did not have a union in, somebody. Uh, and our job was to sign the people up in the union. And then we would give the, uh, the, uh, people a charter to organize that plant. And that's the way, then we'd help 'em in meetings and assist 'em in their problem. And that's really what our job was.

HELFAND: Tell me some of the places where you did, were -- where you did this. Could you name some of these towns and some of these unions, the strong ones, the weak ones?

DONAHUE: Um, well, now, listen, uh, Spartan Mills, uh, Gaffney, um, Clifton, uh, a number of the mills right around the Spartanburg. I was involved with them.

HELFAND: Tell me, could you -- let's go further a little bit with that. And -- and lead off by telling me, you know, and the mills that I would, that I helped organize, or the -- the community that I organized with, name some of those. And if you could mention Pacolet. If you could mention, you know, um, what do make of that? If you could mention some of those other towns, that 00:25:00would be – [sizing?]. And if you could talk a little bit about, I mean, these are little cotton mill communities, you know. I don't think people, I don't know if, you know, I don't think some of these cotton mill workers had ever experienced anything like this before. And this must have been a very, uh, exciting time to be able to, um, offer this to them –(break in video) and put them on as if you're going to read that, which I know you are.

DONAHUE: And I --

HELFAND: Yeah, you know, put them on.

CAMERAPERSON: Put 'em on and then read it, don't look at her.

HELFAND: And then -- and don't look at me. Put them on and read it. You know, you asked me, can I have that paper?

DONAHUE: Oh, yeah.

HELFAND: Yeah. So if you put it on and then read it, as if you were going to, that would just be great.

DONAHUE: I just want to look at some of these names. Um, it's been so long ago (laughter) that you, uh, um, are you on?

HELFAND: We're just going to wait for these folks to, um, leave the hallway, OK? Hi, see ya. OK.

M1: Want me to stop?

HELFAND: Yeah. OK.

DONAHUE: Um, well, there's a number of mills around the -- in Spartanburg County. And of course, there's a lot in South Carolina. Uh, we tried to be as -- not get spread out as, any further than we had necessary. So, the mediators were assigned to certain areas that would be at two or three cotton 00:27:00mills involved in it. And, um, that's where we, we had the -- without any assignment with us what we went to do.

HELFAND: You're talking about mediation now, right?

DONAHUE: No.

HELFAND: You're talking about organizing?

DONAHUE: Yeah.

HELFAND: Oh, OK, you said mediators.

DONAHUE: Oh, I'm sorry.

HELFAND: That's OK, that's OK. All right, so you're looking at this paper to -- to remind yourself some of those mills that you were organizing in?

DONAHUE: Well, um, um, Clifton and Winsboro, uh, now that's a good ways, uh, that's down near Columbia. We organized that one. And, um, uh, we worked there a good many hours in Gaffney, Valley Fall, at Valley Falls, and near 00:28:00Spartanburg. Converse, Clifton and, uh, Gaffney, uh, oh, I see a number on this list that you've got here that, uh, I have been to.

HELFAND: OK.

DONAHUE: I'm gonna have to hit that hard enough to be reminded. (laughter) (break in video) Um, now we have a number of mills a good ways away from Spartanburg County like, uh, uh, Calhoun Falls, and Newberry, um, which we went 00:29:00there and did work, too, when they -- they needed to -- some people. Uh, and, uh, our -- where we were assigned to organize, we had that pretty well under control. And we attended all of their meetings. Uh, and they was running the union at that time. So that's about, uh, the way we divided our time up in, throughout a lot of these, uh, towns.

HELFAND: Now, there couldn't have been too many, were you a paid organizer or a volunteer organizer?

DONAHUE: I was paid.

HELFAND: OK. And that there couldn't have been too many of you who were paid, 00:30:00I mean, most of the people did this rank and file that did it themselves, didn't they?

DONAHUE: In their own local, that's right.

HELFAND: Did you, could you talk about that, 'cause I'd never met, you're the first paid organizer we've ever met. Um, is that futzed up pretty bad?

M1: It's pretty bad but --

HELFAND: Never met, we've never met a paid organizer. I mean, we've heard about them, could --

DONAHUE: Well, um, every organizer that was put on by the international union was a paid guy. I don't know if we had an organizer that wasn't paid. Now, they did that on their own, a lot of people came out. And went with the -- went with the organizer. And, uh, but he -- but he has to be hired by the international union.

HELFAND: But what do you think the ratio was, I mean, there were thousands and 00:31:00thousands and thousands of textile workers in South Carolina. Was then what, how many paid organizers could there have been? That's, I just want to know. That's kind of what I need to know.

DONAHUE: Well, uh, I -- I don't know. But I would say 25.

HELFAND: Now, twenty -- 25 paid organizers?

DONAHUE: Yeah.

HELFAND: But in 1933 and 1934?

DONAHUE: Right.

HELFAND: Really? Wow, I mean, I didn't, I had no idea there were that many. OK, so.

DONAHUE: Well, you know, and I -- that's my guess.

HELFAND: OK. OK. So, so you're of -- so, but in your little area, how many, were you the only paid organizer for your area or was there more than one? Do you remember working with other people?

DONAHUE: Uh, yeah. We've had, uh, um, like Furman Garrett, you've mentioned his -- his name. Uh, John Pollard. Um, uh, a number of those, like those, they were paid. Now, there's a lot of people that just had come in and said, "I want to -- we'll give you -- what you want us to do?" Sometimes they'd go out, or we were going out and the whole a-meeting, they wanted to go. And we'd take a dozen or six in a car, and take some of these people out. They wanted to go out. They wanted to see how it's done, I mean, what it was doing and what they could do. So, a lot of time was spent with the -- the organizer, is the training other people. But we didn't have a trainer out in the field 00:33:00to train these people how to organize. And everybody had a little different technique and they didn't have it all the same. So, everybody's got a different way of handling. And, um, because it's a pretty tedious job of getting' somebody to sign up somebody to -- in the union.

HELFAND: Now, what about, I came across a whole list of black, colored -- of -- of locals that were, that had a C for a colored local in South Carolina. Could you tell me about, could you tell me about that?

DONAHUE: Um --

HELFAND: No, we don't need to read that.

DONAHUE: I don't, um, well, uh, we didn't try to organize the black 'cause there's only a few, uh, in a plant, in a mill, uh, that works in the mill. There's only a few blacks. Now, we did have problems of, uh, that the blacks came to, said they wanted to come in. Uh, so we said, "Well, we were going get you people later, uh, but if you want to join the union, we'll give you a membership card. And, uh, we'll give you a charter. Uh, but we can't do any more than that now. So, we'll be putting you on a holding line." And 00:35:00then I'm satisfied that, that they, uh, blacks decided to come in. And they signed up for the union and they were given cards and they're given a charter. And at times, we met with 'em because they wanted to be, they wanted to know what was going on. And at -- sometimes when they have a regular meeting, they'd come out, or they'd come to a regular union meeting. And they came in and they heard the things and how to, how it was going. Uh, but I know of no, uh, uh, other reason for us to organizing these people 'cause, hell, we got to get them easy. But when they came in, we didn't want to say, we can't take you in, so we signed 'em up as members. And told 'em that we'd put them on hold, again, but they were in this local union. And they had 00:36:00a charter, where's, got his, just like anybody else. They, that's the only reason I can understand that why they, we did this, that it was just to get 'em really, uh, get them satisfied and, uh, and get 'em out of the way. Because we'll, they -- 'cause we -- we could get 'em at the end or, uh, now. But you, you're not gonna have a big local union of blacks in the plant -- because you couldn't -- what if you -- you can't do anything with 'em -- for 'em, I mean. Uh, except if they have a grievance, uh, we could help 'em handle their grievance or something a little like that. Uh, which we 00:37:00would do. I never did do it. But, uh, if one had asked me, I -- then I would have done the same thing.

HELFAND: Let's take a break for one second.

(break in audio)

HELFAND: Please use my, um, yes. That's great.

DONAHUE: Um --

HELFAND: Use my (laughter), you're out of a job. Use, use my question in your answer, OK. What was the international's policy, the UTW of A's policy on organizing black workers in the South in 1933 and nineteen -- in 1934?

DONAHUE: To my knowledge, they didn't have any policy.

HELFAND: So could you say, to my knowledge, the TW of A didn't have a policy on organizing blacks? I -- I was under the impression that you said they -- they -- there was a -- they told you to organize them or?

DONAHUE: Well, they at times said, uh, told us, yes, go ahead. But, there's, you're wasting your time. But we didn't want to tell these people that 'cause, I mean, they felt, but we -- they didn't have enough of people to -- to make a local union. Now, you'd get a charter with six or seven or eight, ten people. They were given a charter to -- and we hoped it could grow bigger, uh, but, uh, we didn't have to -- we knew that there -- we couldn't organize 'em right now or in that plant. Because I had to have a white plant organized 00:39:00first. And, um, I don't know of anything that we had ever, whether we took any, any blacks 'cause there's not many textile workers black. All we get's sweepers, cleaners, and stuff like that, uh, and they only have six or eight other people.

HELFAND: We're going to have to break for one second.

(break in audio)

DONAHUE: No, not -- and there's no enough of 'em.

HELFAND: Could you -- could you -- could you -- could you mention that again? I mean, could you name their jobs and the fact there really wouldn't have been enough of them for a local?

DONAHUE: Well, in a textile plant, uh, there are very few blacks. And, uh, you 00:40:00might have 800 people in, white people doing different jobs, but the black does a different kinda job and you only have eight or ten, maybe. Uh, and I know there wasn't any, uh, reasoning not to take these people because they, uh, or the only reason for not takin' 'em is having these people on line, you've got 'em listed as a union person. And they'll be nothing they can do. They can't increase size 'cause they might have all the blacks in that plant. And, uh, your next move is to ask the, uh, company for recognition and you want to negotiate a contract for 'em. And six people, they do different thing. 00:41:00But you know that they -- they're not going to deal with ya. And all you could do is a go to the board and, uh, they're not gonna make you do it, and make 'em. So, uh, ya just don't get into that trap. So it's really, uh, getting out of a trap is what it is. I wouldn't say that on air, but, uh, these people, and I don't know whether they ever, if -- if an organization was successful, I don't know whether that you could go back and pick these people up, that'd you are, apparently you can, and could.

HELFAND: So, that's what you -- well, when you say you were --

M1: Keep going. He's gone.

HELFAND: OK. I know, I see him. So, when you say you were saving them till 00:42:00later, you meant you were organizing these black workers and saving them for later, could you -- could you -- could you ex -- he's just looking. He's gone. Could you explain what you meant?

DONAHUE: Well, I think I -- I said we're, uh, to put 'em some place.

HELFAND: Right, OK.

DONAHUE: To take care of 'em.

HELFAND: OK, so the --

DONAHUE: So that they, uh, like the --

HELFAND: Well, are you --

DONAHUE: We wouldn't -- we wouldn't say to them, we can't a-take you in as a union guy.

HELFAND: Could you tell me that again, but could say, we wouldn't say to a colored worker or a black worker, we wouldn't take you in, if they asked us. Could you -- I just need to know who you're referring to.

DONAHUE: Um, well, now, that's a broad question. Um, and I don't know what the policy was at that. But where we had these, uh, small group in a textile 00:43:00plant, that's only 10 or 12 blacks, in the whole plant, 800 people of white, and we've got to have them organized first, to get to the company, 'cause they're not gonna, uh, if you started, you'd be in a terrible position to organize six people and where they got 806 people in a plant 'cause the company's not gonna give you any recognition. All you can do is go to some board and -- and get drug in for a year or two, uh, and but nothin'd ever happen. That's what I'm saying. And I'm, I don't care about saying 00:44:00that on the air because, uh, uh, (laughter) that's not the policy. But it's a way to handle it without any disrupting anybody's feelings, 'cause you took 'em in. Just give 'em a charter. And if they want to say to the company, we got a -- we got a union. So, we told them that they wasn't gonna be able to do anything, could not do anything till we got the white, got the biggest ones. 'Cause you're not gonna let six people dictate to the company where he's got 18, 800 others that he won't recognize. And that's why we're organizing.

HELFAND: So, when you told the black workers, we don't want you to do anything, could you just, could you describe to me what you mean by that? You 00:45:00told the black workers, we'll give you a charter, we'll give you cards, but we don't want you to -- we don't want you to do anything? What did, what did you mean?

DONAHUE: We didn't say do anything. Nothing else could be done. What else could be done? See. They, uh, they (coughs) -- you've got to have the majority of the people in any plant before you can get a contract, before they recognize ya. And, uh, now if we had ever, uh, got back to this black local, uh, we mighta had the, uh, asked the company to recognize us, that they're in the union, uh, they mighta said no. And then it would be another year, two 00:46:00years of going to the board and -- and we didn't have money and the manpower to handle all that stuff. And that we had, uh, we did -- the organizing was, uh, bad enough. We didn't have enough people, uh, (laughter) what are -- they know that this is an interview?

HELFAND: Oh, no, no, no, they're just talking to --

(break in audio)

HELFAND: So you were going to say how, what would it be like to say no? Oh, God.

M1: OK.

HELFAND: OK.

DONAHUE: No, I think we've said enough about it.

HELFAND: OK. Well, I just have a couple of other questions but it's not just like that. It's, um, I was under the impression that at the time there were 00:47:00separate locals, also because of, you know, just because of the nature of the -- the South and whites and blacks. Is that? No?

DONAHUE: No. No, there's, uh, we never did separate any of 'em. Uh, and, uh, I think we were right in it. Yeah. Uh, (coughs) so it woulda been, uh, terrible and, see it, the six people or whatever it was in -- they'd not, didn't give us any problem at all. We just wanted to take care of 'em and 00:48:00say, we're putting you on hold here. Now, you can become a member of the union. And we gave 'em a union card. Uh, but y'all here get it and once it, uh, he didn't pay any dues, see. So you don't have to pay dues.

HELFAND: Could you take your glasses off? (laughter) We forgot about that.

DONAHUE: Yeah, but it wasn't on, was it?

HELFAND: Was it on? No, no. But I'm realizing that if I ask you another question, your glasses will be on and before, they were off and it'll look like they came in from, from nowhere, so, uh.

M1: OK, tape's rolling.

HELFAND: OK. So, you know, when I have gone to some of these communities where, but I have -- I have –

DONAHUE: Yeah, these are the -- looks like where they, where they'd be.

HELFAND: What was that?

DONAHUE: I say this is where they'd be. Uh, well, you wouldn't find us going out without there being some plant there, and takin' ten people, uh, because then you can't do anything for 'em.

HELFAND: Now, most of these black locals that we have found out about were in South Carolina, in your area.

DONAHUE: Uh, well, they musta been smarter than in other parts of the country. 00:50:00(laughter) Uh, 'cause we did organize some black plant, where they all, like in a shop where the, all of 'em black, 10 or 15. Uh, well, we wouldn't go to that unless they were come to us. Uh, 'cause they're not worthwhile. I mean, you can't -- you can't spend weeks and weeks, uh, organizing 25 people.

HELFAND: OK. OK. So, take your, could you take your glasses? Yeah, so that --

DONAHUE: I think this is a table here. I'd like to lay 'em down.

HELFAND: OK. All right, OK. And you know, were in Fairmount, South Carolina and Pacolet, and Union and Clifton and Spartanburg, and Gaffney and Columbia. This was your area, wasn't it?

DONAHUE: Yeah.

HELFAND: Could you, could you -- I guess that's no coincidence. Could you make a connection between, could you -- could you name these places for me and?

DONAHUE: Well, I'd, it's just that this is a good union town. I mean, uh, I mean, a textile. So, uh, I'd say this is where I would expect 'em to come from. Where if you organize a bunch of white people and they work in the plant, too, uh, my theory would be that they, they'd want to be in, too. And as far as I'm concerned, they got a right to be in. (coughs) But there's no need to, to set up a black local, uh, when you've just got one set up of white. 00:52:00And you really haven't got it organized. You haven't become recognized yet. You've got to -- you've got a long ways to go. You've got a lot of work to do with these people. You just don't organize 'em and say, all right, you've got a union now. There's more to it than that. 'Cause you've -- 'cause once we get it organized, uh, our first big job is to ask the company to recognize it. And you're gonna say, no. They'll say no, and right off. So then we'll go to the board. We gotta to make 'em and they can. They'll be, and sometimes they'll make 'em, and they make 'em sit down with us. But it's our job to overcome that. And, uh, and then what do we 00:53:00have to get? So, we have, uh, we want to be recognized. And we want to have collective bargaining. Sit down and do that. And, uh, and some places, uh, they -- where they -- you can organize so quick that they probably got a problem on the hand there. And we want to solve that problem. And that's the -- then that's really where the -- (laughter) the meet -- is in the -- and that's where the -- that's the hardest.

HELFAND: Now, so was, the hope was to continue to keep on organizing and organizing and organizing, and then you'd come back to the -- to the black locals when you got very strong?

DONAHUE: Yeah. Uh, we did the same thing to the -- a small plant.

HELFAND: Could you -- could you relate that to, you know, all of that organizing in the -- even the strike of 1934? I'm just, I mean, 'cause I imagine you all thought you were gonna be very, that you were gonna -- you all thought that after all of that organizing, you'd be strong enough, didn't you?

DONAHUE: Well, we thought we, if we got 'em all organized, we'd be strong, but we never did get 'em all organized. So, we never really had a strength. And that's what the big, uh, strike was for at that time is show the strength. And it was, was not planned by the international union. Uh, it was kinda spontaneous. But it was, it was in the right direction and it -- the 00:55:00international let it go. We had a big strike. We didn't want it to last long. And we got in and got it settled as soon as we can, got the people back to work. And the settle don't mean anything where we had anything to do with the company. Well, we -- we prevailed on the -- the workers get back. And, um, because it's -- the longer they stayed out, the worse it's gonna get. So, the union was the one that put that big strike back to work. And I'm -- I'm not talking any claim for that. But it, uh, it shortened it. I know we did. But the union had thought if they, well, we'll strike now, and we'll make 'em do it. Now, they don't understand human nature. That, uh, they, uh, 00:56:00'cause it -- if you asked either side, the union or the company, about would you do this? And they say no. Well, you've got a problem there. Uh, and that's what you've got so many problems between that, it's -- after you get 'em organized, you've got problems. So, get a contract.

HELFAND: You know, when I've gone to a number --