JUDITH HELFAND: -- Clifton, Spartanburg, Gaffney, Columbia, Spartanburg
again. Wherever the majority of the black locals that we found were all in your area.ROBERT DONAHUE: Well, I -- I don't know what the problem was, but I -- uh, I
know that I've heard it talked a little bit. They didn't want to tell those black people they couldn't take 'em in. And, uh, they (clears throat) -- because there's nothin' we could do with them for a long time. And, uh, so they wanted them so bad, said, "Well, we'll give them a charter." But we didn't -- they didn't pay anything, we just set 'em up a charter, and -- 00:01:00and put 'em in there, and I think for safekeeping and we'll come back six months, a year. Now I guess it's been 10 years. Probably some still got a local. And it's, uh, they hadn't really got strong enough to take 'em in. Now, why local might not take 'em, you know. This is, uh -- down south is a little different. They, uh -- and you got a problem there. Uh, so they, uh, it so clear to me that if you want to take care -- don't want to hurt their feelings, sign 'em up. Give 'em a union. And you'll come back and see 'em later, when they get the other group organized, because you can't negotiate with a company for six people. And you got 1,800 or 3,000 white 00:02:00people there.HELFAND: Do you think that the company would ever -- was it -- was it ever made
known to the company that -- that, you know, organized a separate (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) --DONAHUE: No. We didn't let anybody know. We didn't tell anybody who was
working on.M1: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- overlap. You were overlapping.
HELFAND: OK. Could you tell me that again?
DONAHUE: We'd never tell anybody who we'd organize. Unless it come up, but
we said, "No, we've been -- we had 'em --" we -- but, uh -- we didn't pub-- course we knew we were putting this all out. This name where they have local unions, have charters, there's always -- pretty well known where we had the local union. Um, and we, uh, we did publish where they were. But it was 00:03:00for our own information and our membership.HELFAND: Now, but did the white -- did the other -- did the other white locals
know that you organized that -- that --DONAHUE: I don't know.
HELFAND: -- the black workers had a charter?
DONAHUE: Uh, I'm sure some -- that they did.
HELFAND: Could you include my question in your answer?
DONAHUE: I don't want to get in this black and white.
HELFAND: OK, OK. The only reason I'm -- I'm asking is because we were so
excited, literally, when we found out that there were these black locals, because we had heard that the blacks weren't involved. And then we couldn't find anyone who could tell u-- black or white, we couldn't find anyone who could tell us. We're not coming at it from a source of antagonism.DONAHUE: Yeah. Well, they wanted -- only excuse that I -- that I can think --
uh, that we used is, uh, we can't do anything from -- for 'em now, but 00:04:00we're on this white. And, uh, but if you want in, we'll give you a charter. And it cleared them up. In other words, won't be bothering you for a while. I mean, that's, uh, I wouldn't put that on the air, but that's what it actually -- they just holding.HELFAND: And did -- they had meetings? Did they have -- they had separate meetings?
DONAHUE: If they wanted to have a meeting, they had a meeting. They had a charter.
M1: Overlap.
DONAHUE: And if they ask a organizer if he -- uh, they wanted somebody to ask --
answer questions for 'em and stuff, we'd send somebody down there that knew. Yeah, and they -- we didn't keep anything back from it. We wasn't hiding. 00:05:00We wasn't hiding their name, because they publish that they had a local.HELFAND: Now when it came time to the strike, were these black workers out in
public and out in front? Include my question.DONAHUE: I don't know. I -- I tell you. Um, I don't -- they -- they were
for it, for the strike. Now, I don't -- but I don't think they took 'em on any kind of a, uh, journey around. When they went from local, local, get all of everybody out.HELFAND: Could you -- could you re-- repeat that for me again, but mention the
black workers in there, if you could? Because people -- I've never seen any pictures of black workers during the strike. I've never --DONAHUE: I never have and they had-- they hadn't been asked, I gather.
That's the only thing I can say. Um, and it's no -- what could they do... 00:06:00except stir up black and white, uh, issues. And, God, that's -- that hadn't been solved yet. We (laughs) -- my guess is will be a long time to get all -- to get that. But we're in a lot better shape about white and black mixing now than we have been. So we can keep it quiet, you know, and keep it in -- by doing it ourselves of stirring it up, we'd better off.HELFAND: So during the strike when all the other -- lots of workers were going
00:07:00public, the black workers maybe stayed back?DONAHUE: Well, I'm not sure.
HELFAND: OK, let me -- let me -- let's let those folks go in. (break in video)
OK. You know, now in Spartanburg -- your area -- most of the mills closed down. Is that right?DONAHUE: Uh, they're all closed. I think it's on the list on that. Yeah, I
think it all. Um, they might have been -- there's a few that wasn't, uh, completed, everybody walked out of the plant. I mean, there's several, I can't name them, but we had a few mills that didn't walk out.HELFAND: You could -- OK, you could speak in broad terms. That's -- you
don't even have to be that specific. That's -- that's fine. If you could just mention, "Well, during the general strike in my area, most of the mills closed down. A couple didn't." Just to give us a -- a sense. 00:08:00DONAHUE: Well, I really don't know whether they all came out or not, but I --
I -- I have a feeling that there's some didn't come out. Now that question I wouldn't -- uh, uh, I can't answer that.HELFAND: Now, but now your area had the flying squadron, was very -- you -- I
mean, you told me that your role during that period of time was almost like a communications person. You were giving out information. Is that right?DONAHUE: Well, all organizers were. We were all in the same -- same thing.
Yeah, and we were ju-- trying to keep 'em straight. Trying to -- 'cause they don't, you know, they got a -- it's a new group, got a union. They don't know what to do with it. And, uh, they, um -- so one plant said, 00:09:00"We're going -- we're going to invent a fly. We're going to shut 'em all down." And they started out and then they all came out. I don't think I had any disturbance of any plant. They all came out -- or most of 'em. Um...and I'm not sure whether that helped or harmed us, you know, far as the organization's concerned.HELFAND: What -- what do you mean? Oh, excuse me.
DONAHUE: The union didn't order 'em to do it.
HELFAND: When you say something helped or harmed you, what are you referring to?
DONAHUE: Well, when they had the general strike -- I mean, the flying squadrons,
00:10:00shut down all the plants around. Uh, I'm not sure that that helped, um, or how much it harmed us. I don't know. Uh, but it certainly -- it was an unorganized start. It wasn't organization. And this group started out in this plant and, uh, they went to another one, and another group went, and it's just like -- it built like wildfire. And, uh, and I know the international didn't have anything to do with it. And I know (laughs) I didn't have anything to do with it or any a the organizers. Um, well, they might -- I think maybe some of them -- oh, OK, all right, maybe they went along too. I'm not 00:11:00-- wouldn't be surprised if they did. Um, but it's -- it was a -- times is tough. Work is hard. And once in a while there's some peoples gotta express themselves and they gotta get out and, you know, do something, so that did them a lot of good, uh, feeling, I think. So, uh, well, give me a hard question now.HELFAND: (laughs) Uh --
(break in video)
DONAHUE: And down south they haven't got, uh, used to black and white yet.
00:12:00So, uh -- and you know that. Uh, so they just happened to run into something like that.HELFAND: You know, it's the reason because we know that, that that's why we
were so interested in the fact that there were some black locals, because it meant that this was a time when blacks and whites were working together in some way.DONAHUE: Well, I think as a -- uh, they wanted in the union and we said, "OK,
you can come." Now, it's -- I don't know the policy of the international union back then. Uh, and I think, 'cause it's the way it happened, that somebody said, "Well, we'll give you a charter." And, uh, uh, you got a union, give 'em a union card. Now, to do that the international had to know 00:13:00about it. They had to know about it. So they, uh, must'a been in on it. I -- um...(clears throat) I don't, uh -- I never did hear any repercussions in any of the mills in the great -- in the great recom-- rac-- uh, about that. So I don't think it hurt much.HELFAND: Do you view the fact that there was some relationship between black
workers and white workers, even in that way, that that was a -- do you view that as that was a moment of opening, or was a progressive moment, or something to build on?DONAHUE: No.
HELFAND: Could you comment on --
DONAHUE: I didn't give any thought about that. We put those -- we gave them
00:14:00the charter, and local, and said, "We'll see you later." Now, we didn't have no motive. We was just trying to do something that they wanted to do is to get into the union. And we had no place that they could get in the union and be helpful. It was a small group -- you gotta use it in that group -- and you've got that out, got that bunch of people satisfied. So there's a lot more to do when you say that we've got to organize, everybody get 'em in the union. Uh, that's easy said, but doing it is a different thing, and you run into all kind of problem.HELFAND: How do you think the South would be -- I mean, how -- what did you hope
00:15:00that strike was going to attain? How do -- or how do you think the South would be different if that -- the strike of 1934 had been successful?DONAHUE: Oh, it'd been a lot different now.
HELFAND: Could you include my question in your answer? How would the South be
different today or the last 50 years if the strike had been successful?DONAHUE: Um, well, then, uh, we'd have more companies organized, more
unionized plants. Uh, yeah, that's -- the more you do, more you -- so, uh, I didn't -- I don't think it hurt us, the union. Um, but, uh, it didn't do 00:16:00a hell of a lot of good either. It did for a day or two. You know, we c-- closed them down, you know, one day. Uh, but, uh, in the long run it didn't do the union any good.HELFAND: Did it do the people any good?
DONAHUE: Well, it, um, 'bout the only thing it done make them -- that they
were organized, you know, and they can do something other. They did it, but, uh, I don't think it -- don't think it helped...I wouldn't say.HELFAND: And this idea that some of us have had through this -- actually, Laurie
00:17:00and myself, when we found this list of, um, black locals -- and these are not just in South Carolina...when we -- why don't you change it right there -- when we found this list of black locals -- these are not just South Carolina, these are all over -- we got a feeling that there was something, you know, that maybe there was some movement between blacks or whites, in some way maybe almost like a precursor to the Civil Rights Movement in some way.DONAHUE: Hmm, no.
HELFAND: Do you agree with me?
DONAHUE: No...
HELFAND: Could you read those out loud?
00:18:00DONAHUE: Well, yeah, I know all of these places. Uh, uh...now only -- so
we've had meetings with the organizers, international, if they had a been any means that they were trying organize the black, their organizer would have been notified, and the international didn't say anything about this. In fact, the organizer sent a -- for certification that he wanted charter, and they sent him 00:19:00a charter, and he presented it to the local union. Yeah. Oh, you taping that?HELFAND: So, so what are you saying? So you saying that...
DONAHUE: What am I saying?
HELFAND: Yeah. That nobody knew -- really knew about this or they knew about this?
DONAHUE: Um, well, everybody knows about it, but it wasn't a issue. They, uh
-- nobody set out to organize blacks in the textile, but if they come and say, "We want in," uh, what should you say? "No, we can't take you"? Or, "We'll take you later, or make you union member," and then they -- but I 00:20:00didn't even intend to get into that. I didn't know that camera was running.HELFAND: Well, it's -- it's -- you've clarified something that we've
never --DONAHUE: Well, as long as you're clarifying your mind, because I don't know
about anybody else that's ever thought about it, that, well, why did we take in this six? Why did we do this? And, uh, I think it was clear with the union what was being done.HELFAND: It's for the future.
DONAHUE: Huh?
HELFAND: It was for the future.
DONAHUE: Yeah. Um...
HELFAND: Well... I mean, you had high hopes for the future, didn't you?
DONAHUE: Well, when I became a organizer, I did, because when I take a -- a job,
00:21:00I don't -- I want to do the -- the, um, best I can for 'em. And, uh, and, I mean, I worked toward that end, and I think everybody else did. Um, all right, let's, uh...HELFAND: Um... I, um, I just -- if you could just talk about just the -- a
little bit more about the strike in your area and the end of the strike, and then I think we'll be done.DONAHUE: Now, when you talk about my area, we had two or three organizers, or
00:22:00four, in this area too, um, like, Furman Garrett and John Pollard. Um, whenever where they had a -- the mill, they had an organizer. But they, uh -- we helped each other out at that time. You know, a organizer would say, "I wanna -- about two or three guys," organizers would go down and help him out, something other. That's only in, uh, the area that we in, that's where you get that area. If, uh, they needed -- John needed something in Spartanburg, which sometimes he did, well, we went down to help John -- the other organizers in here, instead of bringing 'em out in New York and all around. Um, it was just that. 00:23:00HELFAND: You know, I'm, um -- it seems like Spartanburg was just a very strong
union town, wasn't it? And you told me before that one of the reasons why it was strong was because other unions helped out the textile workers. You mentioned the IBEW?DONAHUE: Well, the -- the carpenters and, uh, the other, other crafter union,
yeah, we had, uh, they helped us.HELFAND: Could you just describe that? Because that's very important. I
mean, you weren't organizing in a vacuum, you were part of something that was bigger.DONAHUE: Well, that's right. That's why they answered that.
HELFAND: Could you -- could you -- could you include my question or my own
answer in your answer?DONAHUE: Um, well, we're getting into shady ground there.
HELFAND: Really?
00:24:00DONAHUE: Yeah. Uh, I don't -- the other crafts helps the unions, each one,
and I don't want to be coming out here way years later and saying that that's the way they do the thing. I'm not, uh, I've been out of it for a long time. Um, however I known what been going on. See, I spent 40 years in -- with the government doing this, but not this. I was a settling (inaudible).HELFAND: Well, after the strike, why don't you just tell me what -- how you
think that, in terms of the strike and the end of the strike -- how do you think that the community responded and what happened to most of the folks that you had organized and yourself?DONAHUE: Well, nobody wins after a strike. Uh, you might'a got what you
00:25:00started to be settle, most likely less than what you want to do, and, uh, you pay them pretty strong price. You take thousand people, take 'em out 10 days, the wages it is they lost, hell, they couldn't -- they are recuperate that in years and years.HELFAND: But specifically to the general strike --
DONAHUE: Wait a minute, this thing's still on, isn't it?
HELFAND: You don't want to record this?
DONAHUE: Well, I mean, this is not, uh, what went on in the '30s.
HELFAND: Well, I'm asking you specifically the '34 right now, the general
textile strike in '34. After that strike, I'm just wondering if you could just speak to me about that -- the end of that strike? 00:26:00DONAHUE: Well, uh, that strike I think, um, a lot of people learned a lot of
thing. That they bit off -- the union bit off more than they could handle, and they didn't get any really results out of it, and they lost a lot of time. So it wasn't the union's interest to have that flying squadron or you're going around and shutting down another plant. That didn't mean anything. That disrupted more than anything. The real movement had, uh, it might effected a few high-tempered guys in the plant. You know, "Yeah, that's it," you know? But, uh, definitely not solid. Um... 00:27:00HELFAND: What had you hoped to -- to gain from that period of time? Do you
remember your, uh, feelings at the time? And you must have had some very strong feelings.DONAHUE: Well, I thought that we were making more progress than we were -- did.
Um... there was another strike that had set us back, nationwide strike, and that set us back a long way. Um, and, uh --HELFAND: How did the nationwide strike set you back a long way? Could you tell
me that?DONAHUE: Set us back.
HELFAND: How? Could you say "the nationwide strike" and then explain that
to me? 00:28:00DONAHUE: Well, the, uh, set us back, 'cause it -- we lost stuff. It hurt.
And it didn't make people go into the union. We got a lot of people out of the union by that strike. And I say it, uh, detrimental. Some of the places never did open up after the strike. A lot of places went out of business. So you're -- that's what I mean. Financially it was bad.HELFAND: In retrospect do you think that, um, the general -- that it was a mistake?
DONAHUE: No. I wouldn't say that. I wouldn't say that about any -- that it
was a mistake. Uh, there's too many ifs and ands about the, uh, um -- 00:29:00you've, uh -- but if they, uh -- a lot of places, they've had strikes, shouldn'ta had some. Some high-tempered guy in there and pull the strike, said, "Let's strike," and then walked out of the union knowing -- I mean, the international didn't know anything about it. And they were out of probably go -- stayed out about a week, and the international got in there, and got 'em back to work. Now they didn't win anything. Um, so there's been a lot of mistakes made. And it's -- and it's so big, the organization is so 00:30:00big, you got so many people in it, that you gonna make other mistakes. And -- but I think at sometime they'll get it. They'll do it...well --HELFAND: I think we get it. And I think that's a lovely way to end. I think
they will get it. (laughter) I hope they do. (laughter)M1: (inaudible)
HELFAND: This is room tone. We're gonna need it.
DONAHUE: Well, that's on.
00:31:00HELFAND: (whispering) Don't worry. It's just quiet...
M1: End of room tone.