Hilburn M. Garrett and Barbara Ellis Interview 2

 (tone)

JUDITH HELFAND: I want you tell me that story of going down to the mill with your mom to buy clothes and --

GEORGE STONEY: You don't have to say -- don't tell the details about the store, but mostly we want to tell about the tower –

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F: OK. When I was a child my mother would take me over to Dwight Mill to buy clothes. We bought clothes at [Frank and Haggerdorn's?] and this was by the Dwight Mill. That was a beautiful building. It looked like at one point there was a round tower and as a little girl to me I thought it was a palace. And I thought I could just imagine a princess at the very top, you know, waving to come and save her, she was at the very top of it. And I always loved Dwight Mill. I feel like if really you all had come earlier -- so a few years ago, we 00:01:00would never have lost that mill because I think it could have been made into a wonderful museum. There could have been a number of things that could have happened, you know, there. And it was on a lake front, it was just really beautiful. And often times you'd see ducks there and it, you know, it's just really a beautiful place. Even to the mill village, all those people were very close, they were close knit people and they meant something to each other. So, it was really sad to me when that mill was taken down.

STONEY: How do you feel when you shop there?

HELFAND: Just look at me.

F: When I shop there now? Well, I still see the mill. I can still see it. In my heart I still see the mill and I don't go there too often except for groceries, but to me I feel like Gadsden lost a great, great thing of importance 00:02:00when we lost that mill.

STONEY: Beautiful.

CREW 1: Speed.

CREW 2: OK. This'll be, uh, room tone, uh, for the, uh, following interview, uh, that we just did here.

CREW 1: Rotate nine, David.

CREW 2: Yeah. Take nine, David.

(room tone)

CREW: OK.

HELFAND: George?

STONEY: OK. Hold on, just a moment.

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STONEY: -- about your experience with unions and the Dwight Manufacturing Company.

GARRET: I was a part of it.

STONEY: Tell about --

GARRET: Expected every day to get run off for it, but --

STONEY: Now let's start over again and I want you to say I had a lot of fun out of being in the union, all right?

GARRET: I had a lot of fun being in the union.

STONEY: Sorry, let's start --

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GARRET: But I don't know if I had the (inaudible) but that was back in (inaudible) but I didn't care if I got run off. We had one boy in the 00:04:00spinning room got run off (inaudible) for being involved in the union.

STONEY: When did you start in the union here at Dwight?

GARRET: (inaudible) first [that they?] were started. Jack [Johnley?] come over here (inaudible) and we had organized on Alabama Avenue and we would see him talking about it. Well, he was -- we had got him so that (inaudible) headquarters was at that Huntsville at that time. The Alabama unions, they had their headquarters at Huntsville. He went back there and told them about, well they probably sent somebody over here. So we got a lot of card room help. 00:05:00Didn't talk to nobody else because we knew all the ones in the card room that we felt that we could talk to and trust because we had some (inaudible) we were smart enough to pick our friends who would want to talk union business with and we had a this guy that we would talk to. He got the (inaudible) from Huntsville (inaudible) sent a man down here to see what there was to it. (inaudible) organize (inaudible) for that (inaudible). And they told us, you know, if you 00:06:00want to take the chance of getting your brains beat out again, well, go ahead. They told them they'd take that chance. But all that dirty stuff (inaudible). A lot of the people that was in on it, they had (inaudible).

STONEY: Now, who were your best members in then '37 -- '38.

GARRET: Huh?

STONEY: That was in 1937-'38?

GARRET: Yeah, [somewhere?] like that. I don't remember what year.

STONEY: But it was after '34?

GARRET: Oh, yeah.

STONEY: When did you first join to start organizing in the mill?

GARRET: Oh, we started that -- I don't remember just when.

STONEY: Was it after the CIO came in?

GARRET: No. We were all CIO here.

STONEY: I see. When was that?

GARRET: I don't remember.

STONEY: Was it -- how much before --

GARRET: Dates didn't mean anything to me then.

STONEY: How much before the war was it?

GARRET: Oh, it was a good while before the war.

STONEY: And what happened? What happened when you brought the union in?

GARRET: Well, we just kept working with it. That one boy got fired. He worked in the card room. They fired him for writing (inaudible). But they had to have went before the labor board. They got a trial on it and they gave him his job back, paid him for all of his back time, and that's what put the union over 00:08:00then. They said we actually did have backing of the government.

STONEY: Now you told us the other day --

GARRET: When I first started wearing my -- wasn't much said when I would wear a badge at the mill at night. (inaudible) card room. That's where the union started, in the card room. Long time before we could ever get a spinner, or weaver, or anything else interested in it because they'd lost—they didn't have nerve, I tried. We got the card room pretty well organized of course they had people worked in different parts of the mill. That's the way we got it started all over the mill then. But we [done at?] the card room, picker room 00:09:00organized before any of the other departments was organized. We got (inaudible)I give them cards, we just signed them up on cards. They was -- I'd say about 15 of us paid to join when we joined. We paid the dues. And after they sent a man from Huntsville to (inaudible) money back. Give it back (inaudible). (inaudible) textile -- steelworkers union hall and that wasn't 00:10:00expected (inaudible). We had over 50 people hanging around that hall waiting on the inside. Some of them were scared to hang around the outside. Scared some -- the boss would see them, but they'd go outside. Some of -- like myself -- didn't give a rip.

STONEY: Now you told us the other day that when you went into the mill you wore your badge on your shirt. Could you tell us about that?

GARRET: Yeah. We had a company badge we had to wear and I just pinned a big old CIO badge right beside it (inaudible), boy he took a second look at me to see what that was I had CIO,(inaudible) wore a little old cap with the bill turned up, took that badge, pinned it right on my hat. And uh my job started right on 00:11:00the pick alley, the first and second shift bosses with me there in the pick alley, the overseer Mr. Turner and Mr. Moody. They looked around and saw me with that badge on my (inaudible) Moody wanted Mr. Turner to run me off. He says, "Now listen," Mr. Turner says, "the government gives people a right to belong to a union if they want to. And I'm not going to say a word to him. If you want anybody run off, you go over and run him off, too, but he didn't have the guts because they had sense enough to know what the government do for 00:12:00them, cause they done that(inaudible) more for running him off, putting him back to work. In the meantime, before he went back to work he went to work in the steel plant. But we got him to get a leave of absence to come back and take his job back at the mill just to prove that the government was backing us and that the labor board made him put him back to work and he got a leave of absence at the steel plant so he kept (inaudible) worked for three days. He worked for three days and then went back to his job at the steel plant because he was making a whole lot of money -- more money over there. He was good enough to come back and stay with us two or three days so that everybody knowed that the 00:13:00company had to put him back to work.

STONEY: What about those people who are in the '34 strike?

GARRET: I don't know nothing about them. I just wasn't working there then.

STONEY: But you told me just the other day that they were much slower to come into the union because they were afraid.

GARRET: Oh, yeah -- there was lots of them was.

STONEY: Could you say that for us again?

GARRET: Yeah, a lot of them were afraid to come back. Have anything to do with the union until we proved to them it was safe, the government was backing us, the labor boards were backing us. We proved it when we made that boy -- made them give that boy his job back and pay him for all the time he'd lost.

STONEY: Now, could you start that again and say, the people who'd been in the 00:14:00'34 strike were afraid and then tell the rest of it. All right?

GARRET: Well, when we first started the people that had been involved in that '34 union got a lot of people run off, thrown out of their houses, things like that. I could understand their thoughts on it, but I was just young enough and foolish enough then not give a [red?]. Didn't know how I'd made a living if they had run me off, but I just had guts enough to want to see something done, see better working conditions.

STONEY: Why did you want a union?

GARRET: Well, for more money for one reason, and for protection from the bosses. If you didn't lick their feet for them why you'd just as likely to get run 00:15:00off (inaudible) you didn't (inaudible) guarantee your job. That's the reason why we wanted the union. So we could have some security over our job.

STONEY: Barbara, did you know that your father was one of these leaders?

BARBARA ELLIS: No, I really didn't.

GARRET: She was too young then. (inaudible) know much about it.

ELLIS: The last few days he's been talking to me about it more. I knew a little bit that he was involved in the union, but I didn't know to what extent and it sort of surprised me really.

STONEY: Why do you suppose he didn't tell you?

ELLIS: Well, Daddy's never been one to really brag about things that he had accomplished. He just sort of went and took life day by day.

STONEY: So, why didn't you talk to your children about that? About your work in the union?

GARRET: They all knowed it. They know that I had a hand in it. They didn't question me about it. Didn't feel it was necessary to talk about it.

STONEY: How did your wife feel? She must have known that it was risky?

GARRET: Oh, she didn't care.

ELLIS: Dad was boss. (laughs)

STONEY: What was that, Barbara?

ELLIS: Dad was boss.

GARRET: She never did try to interfere with me on nothing except in speaking to other women. I could speak to another woman, boy, that would blow her top. Outside of that, well, she didn't interfere in my union business and nothing.

STONEY: Did she work in the mill?

GARRET: No. We was busy raising kids. We didn't have -- she didn't have time to work at the mill.

STONEY: Did you have many women working in that new union?

GARRET: Huh?

STONEY: Did you have many women in the CIO union working with you?

GARRET: Oh, yeah (inaudible) long time (inaudible).

STONEY: Did you ever have a strike?

GARRET: Oh, yeah, we had three.

STONEY: Tell us about that.

GARRET: They're just little wild cat strikes. Just (inaudible) there's wasn't -- they got stretching them out. They pulled a strike. And James 00:18:00Wilson was the president of our local and we was working at that time in (inaudible)war times, you know, and we were working seven days a week and Mr. -- our general manager called and wanted to have a meeting to try and get something worked out on a deal. Well, we sent cars all over town trying to call some of the union men. The other members or the officers of the union -- they couldn't get nobody. Couldn't find none of them nowhere. (inaudible) well, me and James Wilson went up there and met with the -- met with the -- I can't 00:19:00think of his name -- but we met with him and what they had stretched a bunch of the spinners out and they pulled a wild cat which you couldn't blame them 'cause they just tried to really stretch them out. Well, me and James Wilson went up there and talked with the general manager (inaudible) couldn't find none of the other officers nowhere, so we went up and talked with him and we explained to him about the general manager why they walked out was on account of that stretch out they was putting out and James Wilson beat the table where we 00:20:00were sitting at -- (inaudible) says, "Now Mr." whatever his name was -- I can't remember now, but he told him right to his face. He says, "Unless you put these people back on their job like they was and leave them alone, no telling when the strike will be over." The general manager turned around (inaudible) he was the overseer of the spinning room and asked him, he says, "Can you put these people back on their jobs just like they was?" He says, "Yeah, if that's what you want." He says, "Well, that's what I want. Put 'em back just like they was. Let's get this strike settled so the government needing the cloth bad." He says put it back like it was and he 00:21:00asked us if we could get -- that was on a Saturday -- if we could get people to come in on second and third shift on Saturday and have the rest of us come in on Sundays -- the first shift coming in on Sunday morning. We told him we thought we could and we called a special meeting and (inaudible) all the young folks didn't want to go in 'cause they didn't like working on a Saturday and Sunday. They tried to hold them out and I got up there and I told them, I said, "Well, we got the company to come up -- to agree that nobody would be fired for walking out. They [plan on putting everybody?] back to work and we got 'em to agree that they'd take that stretch out off of you." I said, "If 00:22:00we expect the company to live up to their part of the bargain, we've got to live up to ours." And they voted that they would go back to work and they worked -- of course a lot of them were laid out -- but they had enough that they could get by with and run the mill at Saturday and Sunday and Sunday night. Well, Sunday everybody went back.

STONEY: Ok, Judy?

HELFAND: Can we stop for a sec.

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STONEY: I'm sorry. He wasn't ready. You'll have to start again. Now, sir.

GARRET: Well, the organizers told us to come out and help us and to wear our badges, our CIO badges. Said that way they'll know you're not afraid and if you get fired, see then they'll use something else to fire you with, say we 00:23:00didn't fire you on account of the union--it be something else. (inaudible) they know that you're not scared of them, why they'd let -- probably won't run you off. So we had seven -- seven men in the card room that wore our badges in there. I wore a little old cap with the bill turned up and I put mine right up there -- right up there on the bill of my cap. When my job started right in the pick alley right at the pick alley where all the bosses and the superintendent were [needed?] change of every shift. And they saw me with that badge, then Moody jumped about three foot high and wanted Mr. Turner to run me 00:24:00off. Mr. Turner says, "Now listen," he says, "You know the government given the people the right to join the union if they want to." He says, "Now, if you want to risk fighting the government, why go there and run him off yourself. He didn't have guts enough to do it. I guess that's the way we got (inaudible). When they see we wasn't scared he was scared to run us off because he know that they put that one boy back to work. (inaudible)

STONEY: Now tell us about that one guy who they ran off and tell us that whole story again.

GARRET: Well, they caught him writing a (inaudible) in the mill.

STONEY: Just give his name.

GARRET: I don't remember his name.

STONEY: OK, all right.

HELFAND: Say who they were. Was it the supervisors who caught him? Who caught this boy?

GARRET: Well, some of the bosses.

HELFAND: OK, well then say that. Some of the boss -- instead of they if you could say, some of the bosses caught one of our members writing someone up in the mill, so I'll know who you're talking about.

GARRET: Well, that's the way it was.

HELFAND: Now you have to say it because I can't say it. So, if you could start in with some of the bosses --

GARRET: Some of the bosses caught this boy writing up (inaudible) union and they run him off for it and he loafed around there awhile and he got out and went to work at the steel plant. The steel plant had done organized their unions. He just went over and joined their union, went right on working the mill. But (inaudible) we had a labor trial on it. The labor board sent a judge in here to hold a trial on that case and we won our case and they had to put this boy back to work and pay him for every day he'd lost and of course they didn't pay 00:26:00him for the days he'd worked -- but they had to pay him for every day he loafered before he went to work at the steel plant. Well, we got him to get a leave of absence, come back over there, take his job back to prove to the rest of the mill that the government was backing us in their joining the union. And they had to put him back to work. He worked two or three days and when he got his check for -- they paid him his check, he went around showing it to everybody. This check, they paid him for all that time he'd loafered.

STONEY: What did those people say then who had been afraid to work with you before?

GARRET: Oh, boy, they (inaudible) unions just like (inaudible). They'd seen -- you couldn't blame them for -- that they'd been involved in the other strike. Seen so many people thrown out of their houses and things. Listen, I would have been scared if I'd been working, I guess. But I wasn't working at the mill at that time. I done quit, had an outside job. But we didn't know when we started -- (inaudible) get the same thing done, but we just -- a few of us card room people had guts enough to try and see how it would come out with it?

STONEY: What gave you the guts?

GARRET: Huh?

STONEY: What gave you that guts?

GARRET: Well, just born with it, I guess. 'Cause I'm always -- (inaudible) don't try to run a bluff on me. If I'm in the right, I'm going to fight 00:28:00for my rights. That's what we were doing then. We were trying to fight for our rights in the mill. We wanted to be treated like we was human.

STONEY: Judy?

HELFAND: I don't think that Barbara knows the way you were treated prior to getting in the union and maybe if you could just explain what it was like before you got the union in and then afterwards, it would be helpful.

GARRET: Well, I guess she's heard me talk enough about the way the bosses used to -- of course now, I got along with my boss good. He was good to me, but he seen -- seen I run my job and I never had much trouble with him. That's what hurt them so bad whenever they seen me wearing that CIO badge. "Well, didn't we give you a good job?" I said, "Well, I thought you gave it to 00:29:00me because I'd done a good job. Like [I did work?]. I didn't know you were butter me up or nothing. I told them my secondhand, my boss, he come over and (inaudible). Of course Moody sent him over, Moody didn't have guts, he was our general manager at that time, or got to be general manager. He was our superintendent then of the mill. And he couldn't understand why we wanted (inaudible) 'cause they was working us to death, wouldn't pay us nothing much, I worked many a day for 12 cents an hour, many a day 12 cents an hour. 00:30:00Well, piece work, it'd come up to about -- well, if you was good enough at piece work you could make maybe a few pennies more an hour but the general thing was just an hourly wage of --