Melton Ballard Interview 2

 JUDITH HELFAND: It might be helpful in answering my question (inaudible).

M1: Rolling.

GEORGE STONEY: OK. Let's go back to the 64 people that got fired in one week. Could you talk about that? Say that your daddy was one, and then tell you some of the others? The officers of the union and so forth. OK?

MELTON BALLARD: Yes, my father was one of them; he was discharged. And I don't recall the names of the people, the 64. Seems the president of the local, seemed like he was one of them that -- that was Mr. [Holland?], discharged. I don't -- I don't remember his initials, or his name, but 00:01:00Holland was the president of the local, and he's one that got discharged during the -- during a week's time.

HELFAND: How did everybody react to that? I mean, do you remember what, I mean, was there a big meeting to -- and everyone got angry?

BALLARD: Oh, yeah.

HELFAND: What was going on?

BALLARD: Oh, yeah.

HELFAND: Could you describe what was happening then because of that?

BALLARD: Well, there was a lot of -- a lot of talk. I mean, 64 people losing their jobs right quick, we had a lot of people that hadn't been -- that hadn't been coming out and supporting the picket line, they -- the picket line 00:02:00built up after that because of that 64 people. We had plenty of help then on the picket line. They were -- most of the people were very much disturbed on account of these 64 losing their job.

GEORGE STONEY: Did you get any help from other unions in the town? Just say, "other unions."

BALLARD: Yes, we did. We got some help from some of the pipe shops. I don't recall how many, but they -- they did have them.

GEORGE STONEY: Now here's something that you probably remember. Right in the middle of that strike came Labor Day.

BALLARD: Yes.

GEORGE STONEY: And there was a great big Labor Day celebration --

BALLARD: Yes.

GEORGE STONEY: -- that, at that time. Do you -- if you recall going to that Labor Day celebration, just say that, "I went to the Labor Day celebration," and tell us about it.

BALLARD: I don't recall. I mean, I remember they had it, but I just don't recall.

GEORGE STONEY: OK. Then let's go back to tell me about where you were born, and brought up, and where you went to school, and how much schooling you had. You know, just start from the beginning, and tell us.

BALLARD: The year I was born.

GEORGE STONEY: The year you were born too.

BALLARD: Born in 1913, October 17th. And where I first grew was here on the mountain, down at Bellevue. And I went from there to Alabama City, Dwight School. Stayed in school until I was finished tenth grade. Quit, and went in the mill to help my dad, because his health was bad. I got back. I didn't -- 00:05:00when I got back in school -- years later, in other words -- World War II came along, and I went into service. And I went to school on the GI Bill, and got my high school diploma. I'd been out of school about 18 years, which was pretty rough, but, anyhow, I got -- I got my diploma.

GEORGE STONEY: When you quit the -- when you got fired from the mill village, what did you do? Just say, "When I got fired..."

BALLARD: When I got fired from the -- from the mill... I don't recall the job where I went.

GEORGE STONEY: You were -- let's see. You were 18 then, weren't you?

BALLARD: About 18.

GEORGE STONEY: (inaudible). Stop it just for a moment, Jamie.

BALLARD: (inaudible) at another mill; Mr. Kahn, in Attalla. Worked there about two years. And me being one of the youngest, when they had a layoff, I got laid off, and never did go back.

GEORGE STONEY: And so what did you do after that?

BALLARD: And after I -- after I left there, I went to work at a place which has been done away with, Agricola Furnace Company. Worked -- worked for them 15 years.

GEORGE STONEY: But that was in -- in this area, same -- same section of the --

BALLARD: Yeah.

GEORGE STONEY: Same town, really.

BALLARD: Yeah.

GEORGE STONEY: Were those union shops that you went into?

BALLARD: No. Not it -- they were not.

GEORGE STONEY: So when you left the -- so when you got fired from this, you went over to -- you -- how did you get a job in another mill? I thought that when they blacklisted you they notified other people around about you. Did that ever come up?

BALLARD: That never did come up.

GEORGE STONEY: Mm-hmm, yeah. Miss [Hull?] was saying that -- and a couple of other people have told us that if you got fired for union activity, they'd want you to sign a paper saying that you wouldn't have anything more to do with the union. Did they ever ask you to do that?

BALLARD: No, they didn't. Didn't ask me that.

GEORGE STONEY: OK. That's what I was wondering about. Do you want to talk about Mr. -- Mr. [Sims?], a merchant? You were telling us some stories about Mr. Sims, and the strike-breakers. Jamie? (inaudible)

M1: Mm-hmm.

BALLARD: Well, I don't like to talk too much about the man, because he has done passed from this life, but he was strictly against organized labor. A lot of his people are still living, but, of course, plenty of people knew that he was against organized labor. I don't want to say too much about a man that's --

GEORGE STONEY: OK. Why don't we do it this way? Hold it just a moment, Jamie. Why -- (pause)

(break in video)

M1: Rolling.

GEORGE STONEY: All right, Sir? You don't have to name him, but just say he was a merchant.

BALLARD: Yeah, there was a merchant that had a good business. He owned the mountain in Gadsden. And he was strictly against organized labor. He had people, and he went with them, to beat up union people, and try to get over to them that wanted them to leave the union alone. And, of course, he -- he lost 00:11:00business on account of that. I do know that.

GEORGE STONEY: OK. OK, Judy? Do you want to take --

HELFAND: I would like to. Can we take five minutes?

GEORGE STONEY: OK, just --

HELFAND: Do we want to -- do we want to unhook Mr. Ballard?

M1: Do we?

HELFAND: Do we, George?

GEORGE STONEY: No.

HELFAND: OK. (pause)

BALLARD: OK.

HELFAND: (inaudible)

GEORGE STONEY: Fantastic. Nice. OK. Smile, Judy.

HELFAND: Wait. Mrs. Ballard's going to sit down. OK. Is that your grandson?

BALLARD: That's one of them. Where's (inaudible)?

M1: Well, she's around the house somewhere.

BALLARD: Still outside?

HELFAND: OK.

M1: Speak.

HELFAND: Can I ask my question first, Jamie?

JAMIE STONEY: Yeah, sure. (pause)

BALLARD: The union, because I thought it was the thing to do for -- for us, for a working class of people, to get our hours lower from 12 hours a day, to eight hours a day. And that we might be able to get more money for our work. I would 00:12:00say that was the big reasons I joined the union.

GEORGE STONEY: What about the treatment that you got from the -- the supervisors?

BALLARD: Well, the supervisors, they were not -- they didn't do too much talking, but they're -- they're, on the other hand, they didn't -- they didn't give you too many favors. In other words, you had to be sure to keep your job up at all times, otherwise, you'd really be in trouble. But they didn't do too much talking, not to me.

GEORGE STONEY: We've been told by some people that the supervisors were pretty nasty to people.

BALLARD: Yeah, they were with some people.

HELFAND: Jamie, can you stop for a sec?

BALLARD: OK.

HELFAND: Now -- and explain to me, you know, and use the word, "union," and "Dwight," and really explain what this atmosphere was like.

BALLARD: Well, the people in Gadsden.

M1: We need to start up.

HELFAND: OK.

BALLARD: Now what was it?

HELFAND: What I said was I want you to paint a very -- (pause)

BALLARD: Well, the town as a whole was against the union. We had some of the leaders of the town strictly against the union. And at that time, the county, the sheriff was against the union. I -- I don't recall all the merchants, but we did have a good many that was against the union. We had a hard time trying to -- trying to organize, I know that. But we kept staying with it because 00:15:00there was a -- a law that said that we had the right to organize.

GEORGE STONEY: You could -- could you mention some of the other places that were against the union? You mentioned The Gadsden Times, and the lawyers, and so forth. So mention all those places.

HELFAND: Have fun with it.

BALLARD: Well, there -- there were people all over the county that were strictly -- they were strictly against the union. And they were, like I say, they were 00:16:00merchants. They didn't -- they made it plain that they -- they didn't believe in labor just organizing. And what was the -- like I say, the officers was against us. But to make a long story short, as a whole, the majority of the leaders and the people were against us.

GEORGE STONEY: What about the newspapers?

BALLARD: And the newspaper was against -- was strictly against us.

GEORGE STONEY: And the sheriff?

BALLARD: And the sheriff was against us.

GEORGE STONEY: There was a mean sheriff here at the time, wasn't he? A chief of police. What's his name? There was a very mean guy, I remember.

HELFAND: Heath.

GEORGE STONEY: What's his name?

HELFAND: Heath.

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah, that's right.

BALLARD: Who?

HELFAND: Sheriff Heath? [Leath?]?

GEORGE STONEY: Leath.

BALLARD: Bob Leath. He was the sheriff. Yeah, he was strictly against a union.

GEORGE STONEY: Remember any stories about him?

BALLARD: Not offhand I don't. I don't. I don't recall.

GEORGE STONEY: OK.

HELFAND: Can we stop it? (pause) OK. So let's try it all in one shot.

BALLARD: Well, the -- the people had never experienced a mill, or a factory 00:18:00organize. So a lot of them I think were, through ignorance, they just didn't believe in it. But yet the -- after it was told to them over and over, explained to them about the law for the working man to organize, then there was a -- a good many people that got into it, and really believed it. But you still had that number of people that didn't particularly care one way or the other. In other words, whether it was a -- a union plant, or nonunion, they didn't care. Because a lot of them were just, like I say, were just ignorant about it. They just didn't know. But we had so many of those people that -- that did 00:19:00know. They knew good and well that once we were organized that we'd get less hours, more pay. And we had a good many people that just didn't want us to have that.

HELFAND: OK. Mr. Ballard, who were those people? I mean, do you think that the reason why those folks were ignorant is because they were frightened of all this anti-union sentiment in the town?

BALLARD: I don't think they were frightened. I don't think they were frightened at all. They were just stubborn.

HELFAND: OK. Now who was the community that was against all of you? Could you explain that to me? I'm (inaudible).

BALLARD: Well, they were people -- mostly people that hadn't ever worked in a 00:20:00factory. They were people that had worked jobs that was not in a weave shop, or whatever. They just hadn't worked in a factory, and so they didn't -- a lot of them just didn't know what... And, of course, they were told after so long people kept preaching to them about it that they did believe it. But you still had that bunch of people that were strictly against the union, and organized labor because they -- I don't know. They -- they just didn't want -- didn't want a working man to have too much. They -- they thought if he -- if he got too much, why he might be a problem. But, anyhow, we still had those 00:21:00people. And I've never understood to this day why they were like that, but, anyhow, we had a good many people like that.

GEORGE STONEY: Who were they?

BALLARD: Well, a lot of them were just plain, ordinary people that had listened to other people, and believed -- and believed it would be wrong for them to organize, and -- and to have a union. And, like I say, it was just plain, ordinary people. It wasn't -- they weren't no what we call big -- weren't no big shots, or nothing, they're just against it.

GEORGE STONEY: What about the big shots in the town?

BALLARD: Well, it seemed that they -- they were strictly against it.

GEORGE STONEY: Just start, "The big shots in the town."

BALLARD: They, the big shots in the town was -- seemed to be against it. Now they -- I never did have one of them to come plain out and tell me what -- they were strictly against it because they -- they seemed to think it would -- would hurt -- would hurt their business. In other words, their price of things, you know. But they would -- a lot of them would not -- wouldn't even let on like they cared one way or the other. But some of them would let you know right quick if they were strictly against organized labor.

GEORGE STONEY: What type of people?

BALLARD: Well, they were not what you'd call real up in the world. They were people that I know, for instance, it was some that had businesses, just ordinary businesses, that should have been for us, but they were strictly against us. I don't know where they got their information, but they seemed to be against us being organized in the beginning. So they -- they didn't make -- they didn't beat around the bush about it, they just let us know that they was not for it.

HELFAND: How did they do that? How did they not beat around the bush, and be so straightforward?

BALLARD: Well --

HELFAND: And can you say who they are? I'm in the dark.

BALLARD: No, I didn't -- I wouldn't know for sure their names. I mean, it's been so long. But --

HELFAND: You don't have to give names. You could just give businesses, or that kind of picture.

BALLARD: There were several grocery stores, and some dry goods stores that was strictly against it. We did have a few that was -- was for it. Very few.

GEORGE STONEY: What about the mayor, and the newspapers?

BALLARD: Well, they were -- they were strictly against us.

GEORGE STONEY: Just say, "The mayor, and the" --

BALLARD: The mayor, and the newspaper were against the union.

HELFAND: And how did they show that? Remember, you're telling me a story. Telling me a story.

BALLARD: The mayor -- I'm trying to think his -- what his name was, but I can't think what his name was.

GEORGE STONEY: Just start, "The mayor."

BALLARD: The mayor, if you tried to talk to him about the union, he just, more or less, cut you off right quick. He wouldn't -- he didn't want to talk. But in that way you would know that he didn't want to talk about it. I know my dad tried to talk to him. He says, "You can't talk to that man." He says, "He -- he's too much against us." He says, "No use to even try to talk to him."

GEORGE STONEY: What about the newspapers?

BALLARD: Newspapers? Well, we -- I didn't -- I'm not acquainted with any of the employees, but you would never seen anything come out in the paper in favor 00:26:00of us. If there was anything told in favor of us, they kept it to their self, and it never did come out in the paper. Never.

HELFAND: Now I'm wondering -- can you stop this? (pause)

GEORGE STONEY: -- [back?], and then how you feel about seeing that?

BALLARD: You want to talk about the smokestack?

HELFAND: Well, I know that the smokestack came after your granddaddy built it --

BALLARD: Yeah.

HELFAND: -- right?

BALLARD: Yeah.

HELFAND: So why don't you start with what your granddaddy did?

BALLARD: Well, he helped to --

GEORGE STONEY: Start, "My granddaddy."

BALLARD: My granddaddy helped to build the smokestack at Dwight Mill. There were two smokestacks. And I would -- I was wishing that they would at least save one of the smokestacks, but they didn't. I would like to have some of 00:27:00the brick, but I didn't. Were not able to get [any of?] the brick. But now that started -- 1901 is when this began. That's when the mill was completed, the smokestacks and all. That's when my dad went to work over there, 1901.

GEOGRE STONEY: Have you seen any pictures of that building that -- as they were building?

BALLARD: No, I haven't. I haven't seen it yet. I would like to see it.

HELFAND: Could you tell me that story again, and start with how -- Jamie, you want to cut that for a sec? (pause)

BALLARD: Now my grandfather was Joe [Foreman?], and he is the man that helped to build the smokestacks. He carried the brick up, and all of the stuff that had to build it. He was -- he was raised here in Etowah County. And he -- he -- he worked as a -- a miner, worked in the mines, and all. That was the kind of work he done. But then he got -- they started this project, and he -- he got to help 00:29:00out on that.

HELFAND: You know what? We don't know that we're in Dwight Mills. So I'm going to ask you -- I know you hate me by now -- to tell me this story one more time to get --

M1: (inaudible)

HELFAND: OK.