Honeycutt Family Interview 1

GEORGE STONEY: (beep) Got three generations.

JAMIE STONEY: You need to watch your left hand.

GEORGE STONEY: OK, all right.

M1: Who we going to do, me or her?

JUDITH HELFLAND: Well, you know, if you want to talk about the, the, the, what was -- what's the same, and what's the difference. And if the difference is fear. Passing through it. Then that's really important.

GEORGE STONEY: Hold it just a moment. Ready, Jenny?

JENNY HONEYCUTT: (inaudible)

GEORGE STONEY: OK.

F1: Mother, you remember back when you used to tell me how y'all did at Cannon Mills? I was just little, but people would come down the road in a moving van and they'd run, look out the window, stop the trucks, and tell them if they stopped, they've give them a house and a job, too.

JENNY HONEYCUTT: I don't know. Well, that's what they told us when we come to Kannapolis. But they'd stop (inaudible) that service station. Lakeview service station, and tell them they had a house to put them in, had a job for them.

F1: I'd like to see it get back to that. I'd really love to see them have to beg for help. For some of the dirt that they've done to the people that worked there.

JENNY HONEYCUTT: I could quit one part, and they all go to another part, and (inaudible).

F1: She worked in the spinning room. How many years did you work in the spinning room?

JENNY HONEYCUTT: I don't know. I went to work in 1910.

F1: Thirty some years. And then, out of the blue sky, they transferred her to weaving where she don't know nothing about nothing!

JENNY HONEYCUTT: That's right.

F1: She was all to pieces, then. I thought for a while she's just going to quit and give it up. But she toughed it out. But they've had some dirty deals up there. I've had some handed to me in that mill.

GEORGE STONEY: OK.

M1: She was one of the first ones that went to work up at the [Plant 16?] when they first built Plant 16 up there. She had been working in a weight room and I sent her up there to go to work on them [Tsudakomas?]. I mean [Salzers?], excuse me.

GEORGE STONEY: But now, we have three generations of, in the Cannon Mills here. 00:02:00But it's not the kind of Cannon tradition that we see celebrated in that little museum.

M1: No.

GEORGE STONEY: Tell about that.

M1: It's -- it's nothing like the museum anymore. Back when I first went to work up in the mill, well, they -- they, they were real -- Grandmother's generation in the mill was real proud to work at Cannon Mills. Dad's generation in the mill was real proud to work at Cannon Mills. And when I first went to work in the mill, I was too. You know, it was Cannon Mills. Everybody was proud. When you see that little Cannon label on something, like, when I got to California and I seen that little old bitty label, Cannon, son something in the motel room -- the towel in the motel room had Cannon written on it. I mean, I felt like, "Hey, I'm from here!" You know. It was great. I loved that -- when they tore that, tore that Cannon off that building over there, it just broke my heart. I mean, I cried. I couldn't' stand it. (laughter) But Grandmother and them, and her generation, I guess that if they were aware of what we're aware of, they would've organized. If they would just knew what their rights were. If someone would have explained it to them, they would've 00:03:00probably organized. They were -- they were, they were afraid of a union. But they were happy with their job. It was a good place, they got equal opportunity. Like I said, you can go from one department to another department. We can't do that. We can't -- we can't quit a job and go back to work. If we quit a job, I mean, that's it. You know, it's all over for us. And Dad, it was basically the same way, with Dad, when Dad was up there. Other than the last, the last four years he worked up there. You know, while Murdock controlled the stock, it wasn't like that. But before that, it was just -- it was great while the Cannons had it, and he -- they really didn't, they really didn't push for a union. They really didn't need to be organized, because they got whatever they wanted.

M2: They got what they wanted. I mean, it wasn't -- it wasn't hard on nobody, and they give out papers at the mill. The union, they come around a lot of times, give out papers. People look at them. I read every one of them. Now, they had some good points in there. But I mean, we was getting treated right. Wasn't nobody being run over, and I had a good job. Didn't work 00:04:00hard, didn't hurt myself. I said, "Well." And then everybody'd get enough, you know, the former vote on, so it's like I say. We was all happy with the job back then, but you know how it changed when this Murdock took over. Everybody went so bad then. They really need one, now.

M1: Dad, what would you have done if you could have foreseen that Murdock was going to come in here and tear it up? If you could've known back in '74 what I tried to tell you in '80 was going to happen, and it did happen, what would you have done in '74 if you'd have known how it was going to be today, and your pension was going to be took from you and you didn't -- you didn't have no rights whatsoever in the mill. What would you have done in '74? How you feel about that?

M2: What could you have done? Either you could've voted, but what good's it do if there wasn't nothing to vote on it? They come in there and they had us a -- you know, we're between number seven, number six. They had the whole [place setter?] full. (inaudible) hope, he was a good (inaudible). And they talked to us after that for an hour about the union. He went around different 00:05:00places and talked to them. And got them turned against it. I mean, they didn't need it there. They were getting treated fair. Well, a lot of them was! I mean, they couldn't complain because that was Cannon Mill. You know, (inaudible) they was. They had pretty good jobs. But it's like I say. It's changed now, and your pension, it's like this talk about a pension. They took away 30% to get by with it. They allowed to come back later, want 30 more cent. And --

GEORGE STONEY: One of the big changes that I've noticed, we've been looking at movies of, of textiles in the '20s and '30s and now. And just very different, because there's so many black people in the mill.

M1: Yeah.

GEORGE STONEY: Could you talk about that big change? How does that look to you?

M2: Well, it made a change, but they got by with more. And I had a bunch of black people I trained in there. We've -- and they come in there. They got by with more than the white did. Now, I don't know -- well, see, Cannon, he was -- I mean, the government, federal government, forced it on him. He had to 00:06:00put so many black people in there. And they had to put so many (inaudible) man. I know we had one (inaudible) right off his job, and fighting with another boss man. He stayed for about two years before he learned the job. And they had to hire so many. Would be a certain percentage in the place. And they run over him. He couldn't do anything about that. But the federal government, they paid so much for training people. You know what? He got so much of these trainees. Now, I've had them quit, stay out a week or two, and come back on the same job.

GEORGE STONEY: How is it -- how is it now?

M1: Well, now the -- as far as the racial thing, the racial is, now, well, back when I first went to work, it was like -- like Dad said, you know, like they got by with a lot more than we do -- we did. We had to pretty much walk a straight line, you know, and they really couldn't fire a black or a -- well, we didn't really have any Hispanics, you know. Or Orientals, or anything. That's just been here lately, that they've started coming in. But it was 00:07:00pretty much, it was pretty that way when I first went up there. But now, it's like, when you get to talking about -- talking to them now, they -- they're after the same thing we're after. We're after equal rights and freedom. You know, freedom to, uh, speak what we want to speak. And, and dis-- do our job. Stay off our back. Just let us do our job and we'll do it, you know? And uh, treat us like humans. Treat us all equal. And they're after the same thing I'm after. Well, I've got a -- I've got a lot of black friends, you know? I, I'm not -- I'm not the least bit prejudiced, and I had -- there was, back when I was a kid, I was, you know? I mean, we didn't ride the same bus, you know? You wouldn't do that. But uh, after, after they, they started, uh, segregated the schools, and we, we fought that a long time, and 00:08:00but, after, after they segregated the school, I got some black friends and um, and then they started bringing them in the mill, you know. And I, I got to be friends with a lot of them up there, but uh, now it's like we're -- we're standing up for the same thing. Like what they were standing up for. I couldn't understand what Dr. King was -- his issues. I, I wouldn't understand it. I turned my head to it, you know? I turned a deaf ear to that man, you know, and I hate that. Because he was a -- he was a great man. (laughs) I mean, he, he, he knew then, what I know now. And uh, it took me 20 years to figure it out. But um, we stand together. I mean, I've got -- I've got people that come up to me who are black, and they ask me questions, and I go up to the black people and ask them questions. We're as one. We're united, whether we get a union in, whether we get a contract, or -- we're going to stand together. Every one of us. Black, white, Hispanic. We've got Hispanic people that don't understand English, but I talk to them through an interpreter. (laughs) I know a little bit of Spanish, and I can 00:09:00understand most of the time what they're saying, except for the ones that come from El Salvador. I can't understand them. They talk so fast, you know. But uh, I've got, I've got people that interpret-- or, interpret for me, up there. And I talk to the Hispanics, too. I just don't know any Orientals up there that I could get to interpret for me.

GEORGE STONEY: Good luck. (laughter)

M1: Thank you.

GEORGE STONEY: I've got -- it's interesting. At NYU, I've got all these different people in my classes. And it's fascinating how quickly you, you start looking [up at it?] as individuals. But it does take a while.

M1: It does.

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.

M1: It sure does. But it, it took me 20 years. I, I guess I was a, I was pretty much prejudiced, you know.

GEORGE STONEY: Just about -- say that again.

M1: OK. It took me 20 years. I was pretty much prejudiced back -- you know, when I was young. Coming up, we had race riots. We had race wars. We fought. Doggoneit, I've been expelled a bunch of times from school, and they didn't know I was expelled from school for fighting. Racial fights, you know. But I 00:10:00busted the principle's windshield out of his car one time, with a black guy. (laughs) But uh, after they, after they got in, I seen that they were going to be there, and they were there to stay. Here, 20 years later, you know, I -- I don't have a prejudice bone in my body, you know. I guess I was, but after I figured out what the truth was and what freedom meant, you know, I guess figuring out what freedom means is the -- and the main, is the main thing. It's kind of -- it's a learning experience, the last 20 years. But I'd say, for -- in 1980, well, in 1976, I went in the Army. And I was in, uh, the barracks with black people. And I was this close to them. I learned then. I learned what it was all about. I got to talking to them. My best friend's name was Armando Perales. (laughs) There's no way I could be prejudice with 00:11:00Armando. And uh, I had a buddy -- when I was in California, stationed at uh, Fort Ord, I had a friend from Concord. Was a black guy. Can't remember what his name was. Sorry. (inaudible) But I can't remember what his name was. Uh, but we were, we were in the same squad and uh, matter of fact, we rode back and forward to California together, several times, and uh, he taught me a lot about, uh, about prejudism, you know. And being as one, standing up. Equal rights, and stuff like that. What Armando didn't teach me. It was a learning experience.

GEORGE STONEY: How far did you go in school?

M1: I, I finished school. I, I'd graduate with a GED. I, I finished, um, 10 months in the 12th grade, and I quit two months before graduation. But I got a GED. (laughs) I got married. (laughs) I got married and I had to quit school. 00:12:00Plus I worked fulltime in the mill, you know. I had, I had my own home.

GEORGE STONEY: OK! Uh, Judy, you want to take over?

JUDITH HELFLAND: Can we take a break, for a sec?

(break in video)

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah. Yeah, I feel that's a cutaway, (inaudible).

(break in audio)

JENNY HONEYCUTT: (inaudible) That's the last mill house I've ever lived in.

M1: When --

GEORGE STONEY: OK.

M1: When you, uh, when you first went to work up here in the mill, Grandmother, did you, uh, did you live in a mill house?

JENNY HONEYCUTT: Mm-hmm.

M1: When you came and got your job, they put you in a mill house then?

JENNY HONEYCUTT: No, uh, well, they told us we could get a house. We, we was living in (inaudible) and riding the bus over here to work, me and, uh, Sis. And I. Then we, uh... Oh, I stayed with, uh, Harrison [Flory?], when we first 00:13:00come here. And then we both -- they give us a house, so if we'd get a [half, whoever owned it?]. So, we moved over here then. We moved on [Nair?] Street. That's over here in [Tin Cup?].

M1: Would you, um, was you living in the mill house when the uh, union tried to get in?

JENNY HONEYCUTT: Mm-mm, no. Uh-uh.

M1: You wasn't? Was you ever scared that if you'd do something wrong in the mill, that you would get evicted?

JENNY HONEYCUTT: No.

M1: They would kick out of the house, if they fired you?

JENNY HONEYCUTT: Mm-mm.

M1: You wasn't ever scared of that?

JENNY HONEYCUTT: No.

M1: You had to work to keep your house.

JENNY HONEYCUTT: I know, I did.

M1: What, what -- didn't that frighten you, that you might do something wrong, and then they'd -- and then you'd lose your house?

JENNY HONEYCUTT: Mm-mm, no.

M1: Well, that's --

F1: Was working under C.A. Cannon then. Didn't have to.

JENNY HONEYCUTT: Yeah, I worked with Cannon.

M1: They had a reason to be afraid, back then.

M2: Didn't work for them, you didn't get the house, back then. You had to work in the mill. You couldn't get the house unless you worked for them. But their rent was so cheap. Boy, if I had a house like that. I mean, it -- went 00:14:00on up, to a can and soda. That house rent was real cheap.

F1: [Lorna May?] lives over here on Walnut and Murdock Road. She lived on Mulberry Street for 47 years in the same house. They built a room onto it and added a bath. And their rent was $15 a month. Now, she's paying $60 a month. She's an old lady now. She's 84 years old, living on a fixed income. And that gets rough! Now, you jeopardize yourself if you're living in a (inaudible) house that belongs to him or to the county. You got to walk the chalk line.

JENNY HONEYCUTT: Well, Murdock don't need no lady to pay to take a flower up out of the yard! But I told my sister, (inaudible) is out there. My brother bought them there. Murdock didn't have nothing to do with that. I said, "I don't take part in nothing." They go, (inaudible). He said, "I'll give you anything out here you [already own?]." I said, "Well, don't you think 00:15:00I'll -- I won't tell you that." I, me and (inaudible). Said, "Murdock will be on you before you know." I said, "I'm not scared of Murdock. I don't work for him, either."

M1: Don't live in one of his houses, either.

GEORGE STONEY: But now, one of the things that has impressed me, as uh, somebody who's just looking into textile families, is that there seems to be a very close relationship. The generations. Not only, people seem to look after their parents and grandparents. But there seems to be a lot more support between men and women than you see in other places. Like steel, where there's the man who goes out and [makes the work?]. The woman stays home. In cotton, it seems to be the women, so much work in the mills, but way, even way back yonder, you had 00:16:00two income hou-- uh, families. Is there anything connected with that that's made it easier to organize?

M1: I think they, uh, I think we all, we all pretty much know what we're going thorough. Like, Grandmother knows what I'm going through as a loom fixer. Dad knows what I'm going through as a loom fixer, because Grandmother was a (inaudible) in a weave room, and Dad was a weaver in the weave room. And I fix the looms that Dad wove on, and she laid the (inaudible) up on. Uh, we pretty much know what we're going through. We need -- we know how hard we have to work, and we pretty much stick together, you know? I mean, it ain't like a steel mill where they might run off and, "I'm not working in a steel mill." And then move across the country somewhere. We, we pretty much all stick together, you know? Like I live about -- I live about three miles from Mom and Dad here, but Grandmother -- they take care of Grandmother. And when they get old, I'll take care of them you know? They'll come on over to my place. And uh basically just about everybody in, you know, in cotton mill work 00:17:00sticks together like that, you know, because we know what we're going through and we've all been there. And it's pretty much a tradition, you know? To stick by your family like that.

GEORGE STONEY: Good.

HELFLAND: Um, you know, we've heard a lot about these fear tactics that they've been using. The movies, and the -- those closed, captive meetings, and that kind of thing. I wonder if you can talk about that. And how that's affected people, and how people have been able to not be affected by it. I'm sure you're one of them. And I -- and also, describe one of those movies for us. In detail. Have they been using history? Old historical movies to try and counter the union?

M1: OK. Well, when, uh, when the union first come to the gate, and they started passing out the green cards this time, I was there that night. And uh, I went in and I, I filled out my green cards, you know. When I come out, I was going -- I dropped it in the bucket. Probably just a few nights later, and they had a 00:18:00-- they had a movie about, let's see. It was, uh, Mr. Fitzgibbon. I believe it was. Got on there, told us all to stick together, that -- and that he had, uh, he had been in poverty, like we had, you know. With his $528 an hour salary. He had been struggling just as if we had, and you know, I -- that was (laughs) I got a good laugh out of it, you know. Making $9.49 an hour as a loom fixer. And um, I, uh, I kind of laughed it off. But not -- there's some people that are [antis?], who laughed that off, too, because they realize this guy's -- has never been in poverty. I mean, he's come from a rich family and he was hired into the Fieldcrest family, by a rich family that was associated with his family that bought the company that his family owned. You 00:19:00know? I know how this guy (laughs) I know where he come from. Come from. But then I started -- they started showing these movies. Now, uh, this is hearsay. I, I know the words that was said in the movie, but I didn't get to see the pictures because I was not there. I went to the first uh, captive audience meeting, when it was mandatory. And the second mandatory meeting, I was excluded from. And every mandatory meeting after that, I was excluded from, and they also -- one of my black fiends that fixes on the section beside of me, they excluded him from the second one. Not because he asked questions at the first movie. I mean, at the first meeting. But just because they -- they didn't want to show no discrimination, you see. So, they kept both of us back. A black and a white. And then, everybody went to the second movie. A lot of people asked questions, and they kept them out of the third movie. And then when they went to eh fourth movie, they asked questions, and they kept them out of the fourth movie. You know, the captive audience meetings, is what I'm 00:20:00trying to say. But uh, they were -- I believe they were still mandatory, at that time. I think the last two meetings, or the last three meetings, they said that they could go if they wanted to, you know; They didn't have to go. It was basically to find out who was going to vote yes and who was going to vote no. That's basically -- so they could work on the, you know, intermediate people and get them to vote no, was what it was about. Because we all knew -- we knew who was going to vote yes and who was going to vote no right from the beginning, you know? And uh, we just worked on the ones that were going to vote no. Anyway, um, these captive -- captive audience meetings, they, they told a lot of horror stories in there. About um, union strikes. Mostly was about the coal worker strikes. The coal miner strikes, you know? Which we have nothing to do with whatsoever, but uh, I think ACTWU was -- which is the union that, uh, 00:21:00that I represent. That t represents me. Uh, ACTWU was involved in a couple strikes. And they, they got that on film, you know? And they showed that to them. "Here's these people that's trying to get into your company." Which it don't have nothing to do with them, by the way. They won those strikes. They won those negotiations, that they were striking for, at that time. And um, there was just, just strikes from Chicago, you know. Places -- and uh, the bus, the bus driver strike, I believe it was , that there was so much violence at? They showed that, you know, like as if, "Here they are. At Fieldcrest gate, you know, beating each other up." And it had nothing whatsoever to do with us. It was just a scare tactic. And I believe they swayed a lot of votes with those scare tactics. Probably 50% of their no votes came from there.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, one of the things that I've commented one, and maybe you could comment on it, is that this has been the most peaceful labor experience 00:22:00that I've ever observed, and the most orderly and disciplined. Uh, how was that brought about?

M1: That -- the reason it has been peaceful is because we're --

GEORGE STONEY: Just a moment. Are we getting it too heavy?

JAMIE STONEY: It's, it's there, and if you want to let it wait, let's let it wait.

GEORGE STONEY: Let's wait, because this --

(break in video)

M1: You going to bring that in as a question?

GEORGE STONEY: No, you can just assume that I've asked the question.

M1: OK. Well, um, uh --

GEORGE STONEY: Talk about peaceful.

M1: Well, the reason it -- it was so -- it's such a peaceful campaign, was because these, these anti-union people and us union supporters, we're, we're all in the cotton mill. We all work under the same conditions, although they do show a good bit of prejudism towards us organizing type people, you know. Um, we're, we're still in the same place doing the same jobs and we're 00:23:00virtually a family, you know. We're, we're not a happy family, but we're a family. We know each other real good. And like I seen my brother-in-law, my best friend, my supervisor, several guys at work beside of me, all standing on the other side during the vote count, you know. They were, they were all on the company side. And there was no -- I would -- they didn't speak to me. I didn't speak to them. But there was no way I'd go over and say a harsh word to them. And they wouldn't say a harsh word to me. It's -- we're going to campaign, we're going to work this thing out. And we're not going to fight. There's no reason in fighting about it. I've, I've got into some pretty heated discussions and I say, "Well, if you don't want to talk about it civilized, you know, civil-- you know, civil tongue, you know, maybe we'll talk later. Maybe you've got something else on your mind right now. And several house calls I had, you know. And several times in the mill, you know? I'm going to be civilized about this, or we're not going to talk about it at all. But they wanted to talk about it. Lots of times, I didn't get my point 00:24:00across because they start arguing with me, you know. But um, it was a very peaceful campaign. Very peaceful. There was no violence whatsoever None, not, no violence. And uh, there weren't -- there weren't no profanity. No, no, verbal violence. No drinking. Uh, just it's in the South, you know. Everybody drinks beer. But um, we didn't have no, no drinking whatsoever. It mostly was out of common courtesy. Every bit of it, like, I don't come to my Mom and Dad's house and drink a beer. When they come over to my house, if I happen to be drinking a beer, I put it down, you know. Or if I see them come in the door, I'll put it in the trash. I don't drink around them. It's courteous-- use courtesy. That's about being a southerner, you know. You're going to be courteous to each other. And the same thing goes with the campaign. Goes with anything you do in life. If you go to -- if you go down 00:25:00here one of these car lots, you won't see no high-pressure salesman. You going to see a southerner, or else he's not going to be from here. He's going to be courteous to you. He going to treat you like a human, you know. And I -- we don't, we don't have that management in the mill anymore. They're not courteous to us. Charlie Cannon was a southerner.

JENNY HONEYCUTT: Amen.

M1: He was courteous. He treated us like we were one of his family. We were a southerner. Now, these people from up yonder, Michigan, or Boston, or wherever they're from, you know, they're not like that. They're not going to -- they're not going to, they're not going to do us no favors. I mean, let's talk about -- they going to take our -- they might take our vacation pay away from us, you know? Like, we have to be off a week without any pay. There's some people up there that gets average four weeks' pay a year, you know, because they've been there over 25 years. We don't have that in writing. They can take it tomorrow, just they did his sal-- uh, pension, you know. They can do that. They're not courteous whatsoever. I mean, that -- that 00:26:00tradition in the mill is gone. But it's still here. We're still courteous. We're courteous to them people, you know. My brother-in-law -- I'm not going to mention his position or anything, but he's a -- he's one of the top people in the mill up here. I'm just as courteous as him -- to him -- as I can be. I haven't been to see him in three months. But there's a purpose. The reason I hadn't been to see him is out of my courtesy towards him. I didn't want none of his folks in the mill to think that we were elaborating, you know. And my folks knew we wouldn't, but I didn't want anything to happen to him. My best friend is a supervisor in the mill. I mean, me and him seen each other probably three or four times a week. You know, we went out at least once a week, usually. Before this election. I mean, before the campaign started. But out of courtesy, I don't go to see him. But I will, real soon. (laughs) Probably this weekend, you know. But it's over. I didn't want anything to think we were elaborating. That's courtesy.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, back in '34 -- we've been talking to a lot of people who were there. They keep telling us that the -- that the mills were riddled with spies. Did you run into anything like that here?

M1: No. You mean spies like, inside management? No. We did -- we didn't have anybody inside management, and I don't think management had anybody around us you know. They could have. I mean, all it would've meant was, when they went to the booth they could've checked no. And they could've been one of us. I'm not saying they didn't, but I, I didn't hear of any. You know, I think it was, in hat aspect, I think it was a pretty good deal. I mean, they didn't know where we were coming from when we hit with one campaign, you know, one campaign phrase. They didn't know it was coming. But we pretty much knew what they were going to do.

GEORGE STONEY: How did you find out?

M1: Well, it was just -- it, it was like 1984 -- I mean, 1985, all over again. The same speeches, the same campaign tactics. Everything -- I mean, you could almost tell. Let me, let me, let me guess. Let's say it's the third week in the election. This must be talking about strikes! "Oh, it is talking about strikes!" Oh, it -- you know, it was exactly like 19-- it must have been the same law firm as 1985. But the faces were changed. There was Mr. Fitzgibbon instead of Mr. Murdock, begging us not to vote for the union. Now, I'll do this, and I'll do that. You know, they didn't -- the thing about it, what I couldn't understand about the no's, they, um, the no-voters, they didn't offer them nothing, you know. They didn't say, "I'm not going to stop paying you for vacation week." Or, "I'm not going to stop your pension plan." They didn't' say, "We're not going to go up on your insurance." They didn't say none of that! They didn't promise, they didn't promise a lot, like Murdock did. See, Murdock said, "Well, I'm not 00:29:00going to do this and I'm not going to stretch you out. And stick with me, we'll be one big happy family." And then turn around and sell the mill the next two weeks later, two months later, whatever it was. Turn around and sold it, you know.

GEORGE STONEY: Why do you think they got a majority?