James Hoffman Interview

JAMES HOFFMAN: For the reasons I've stated, these feelings do still exists. And attitudes, uh, that were formed in 1934 prevail today. Uh, and there are some aspects of -- some facets, facets of -- local history that people still have strong feelings on. So, basically what you're saying is correct. Uh, yeah.

JANET IRONS: Can I try one more time?

GEORGE STONEY: OK.

IRONS: And then we may want to -- I don't know how long we want to go on this.

JUDITH HELFAND: But I don't -- what was, what was George saying? Can you recast it for me?

HOFFMAN: Yeah, he -- he was saying, basically, that I did not want to say, or talk about, some facets of, uh, the local situation here, or... Is that, right, that I --

GEORGE STONEY: Well, I just don't understand how an historian can --

HOFFMAN: OK. It's easy. If you're detached from the situation. If you're detached from the situation and not related to it, and can, to some extent or degree, stand back from it and look at it objectively. OK. I cannot do that. Because I was born in Gadsden. I've lived here all my life. Uh, I don't have an objective point of view, perhaps. Uh, also, perhaps, maybe I, not totally detached from what we're talking about. Uh, and some things would be easier for an impartial uh, observer, or impartial outsider to come in and study and report on, than it would for me.

HELFLAND: So why did you --

GEORGE STONEY: It's very important. Yeah.

HELFLAND: So, why'd you do it? Why'd you do it, if you're not going to put it out there?

HOFFMAN: Well, I did it because I wanted to do it, because I thought it was important and considered important. And I still do. To try to capture a facet of local history before it completely disappears. It's something that is gone with the wind and I tried to capture a segment of it before --

GEORGE STONEY: But as a southerner, you can understand the parable of the talents. Remember the one who put it in a napkin and hid it away, and so -- it, it didn't produce fruit. You have taken all of this experience, what people have given you, and you have researched, and then you put it in a book, and then you don't want to have it at a place where high school kids can use it, teachers can it. All of this.

HOFFMAN: I would like that eliminated from the film! (laughs)

GEORGE STONEY: OK, OK.

HOFFMAN: Eliminate that!

GEORGE STONEY: OK, I'm just -- I think we pushed you too much. I'm sorry. I'm just -- I'm just baffled, OK.

(break in video)

GEORGE STONEY: You're talking about something that will help them understand their parents and grandparents and great-grandparent's lives, in a way that they can't do it now. And you are saying, "George, you're getting too close to the truth. It will hurt you."

HOFFMAN: Well, let me try to put it this way. No, I don't think you're getting too close to the truth. But as far as my personal role in getting to the truth -- as far as I'm personally concerned in getting out the truth, as you put it -- I would prefer not to be directly ass-- directly associated with that, as far as my role is concerned. But, uh, hey, no! No problems. No problems with your showing it to high schools. Produce a documentary, yeah. It can be shown here, locally, without any problems.

GEORGE STONEY: But you know what I'm doing? I'm asking these poor textile workers over here to do what a scholar -- a middle-class, independent scholar -- won't do.

HOFFMAN: OK. Which is?

GEORGE STONEY: Tell what happened! And that's -- I'm just baffled by that!

HOFFMAN: OK, I'll try to address that.

GEORGE STONEY: No.

HOFFMAN: I'll -- I'll, no.

GEORGE STONEY: OK.

HOFFMAN: I will try to address that. Uh, specifically, specifically, what do 00:04:00you want to know that I hadn't, I hadn't talked about? Tell me.

GEORGE STONEY: OK. Uh, we mentioned class attitudes.

HOFFMAN: Yup.

GEORGE STONEY: The kinds of things that you put in that.

HOFFMAN: Right.

GEORGE STONEY: And I -- we were asking you questions about it, and you said you'd rather not tell. And I'm not going to push you, because --

HOFFMAN: No, that's OK. But specifically, what?

GEORGE STONEY: OK. We asked you about class attitudes. Uh, particularly about employer-employee relationships.

HOFFMAN: OK.

GEORGE STONEY: And how the, the, they continued. (pause) Now, it's absolutely fascinating to me that you're sitting where I could easily have sat if I had stayed in my hometown, instead of moving out. I understand completely! [By God, sir?], it's (inaudible)! Because I used to write for, uh, I used to write for the Raleigh News and Observer, and then I wrote for New York Magazine. 00:05:00I wrote for the Myrdal study on the Negro in America. And many is a time when I went into a -- into these counties doing research and I had to say to myself, "OK. When this is published, how am I going to feel?" And I finally had, said, "OK, George, are you a journalist or are you not?" But I was -- I was working not for the Raleigh News and Observer at that time, so. I knew when I was working with the Raleigh News and Observer, the city editor would determine the limits of what I was doing. When I was writing at Chapel Hill, as a scholar like you, I was setting my own limits. But who would know it? Who would know it at all?

HOFFMAN: Yeah. Well, one thing, in response to what you have said is, of course 00:06:00I am not qualified to say anything about labor-management relationships because I didn't work -- that was before my time. OK, I don't know anything about labor-management relationships. I think you've talked to people that uh, can tell you a lot more about that than I can. Uh, uh, I guess one concern I have, is that if this goes on television and local people see this on television, my concern would be that they might think if I said anything about class distinctions, of the working class, the class of people who work at the Dwight Mill. The middle class, and these kinds of things, that local people here could get the idea, of may get the idea, that I think I'm better than other people.

GEORGE STONEY: Uh-huh, I see. Yup.

HOFFMAN: I, that, that --

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah, I see what you're saying.

HOFFMAN: "He's talking about these low-class -- hey! I don't --" down here, you got the term poor whites. "Well, he thinks the cotton mill workers are poor whites! Worthless." Uh, this kind of thing. And, and they may, or 00:07:00could, get the idea that I think I'm better than cotton mill people. Because this is something else. Hit this yet or not? Hey, for years, um, cotton mill workers were considered poor whites. And the low class -- if that's, you want to use that term. I wouldn't want to be caught on TV. Were considered working males. OK? And if I said anything that local people here might see that would make -- or cause them to think that I think I'm better than this group, this group, or that group, that's my main concern.

GEORGE STONEY: Mm-hmm.

IRONS: But you don't think you're better than they are.

HOFFMAN: No, no.

IRONS: You really don't. I believe you. It's very earnest and very sincere. But you are middle class. But you don't think you're any better than they are! Are you unusual? What gives you that feeling that you have so 00:08:00much respect for them as people, that you would never use any kind of --

HOFFMAN: Well, it's just a concern that some people could interpret it, that way.

IRONS: I know! But you don't feel that way. And that's very special, about you.

HOFFMAN: Well, if it was interpreted that way --

IRONS: There -- we could have another -- I'm interrupting you.

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah, sure, no.

IRONS: We could have another historian sitting here who would not have those concerns at all. And they would sit up there and they would make us all feel very uncomfortable because they would start using words like, "Well, you know those textile workers." Right? But you won't do that. And that shows enormous integrity. Right? You really respect those people. Where did that -- is that, is that, is that unusual for Gadsden, or --

HOFFMAN: No, I wouldn't think so. But, uh, to try to be clear and specific. Uh, I would not want anything I may say to be interpreted as, uh, people thinking that I'm, uh, you know, maybe think I'm better than -- as I've said before -- the mill workers, whatever. Or uh, this group, that group, or 00:09:00this group. Uh, there is a sensitive area here, in that, in that I do have to live here, but as George has said, in his writing, he's got a good point I can't argue with. He is asking former mill workers who also live here tough, hard questions and put them on camera. Um, uh, responding to uh, these things that they also have to live here. So, I realize that and, and so you've got that factor that I'm aware of, but see, so much of this -- hey, I wasn't even born back then! It's before my time anyway. I, you know.

IRONS: Can you describe your emotional feelings for these people that went out on strike?

HOFFMAN: No, because I can't -- and I do not identify with them! I don't identify with the strikers in '34. I wasn't born back then.

IRONS: Do you have --

HOFFMAN: See --

IRONS: Do you have -- do you hate them, love them, think they were stupid? Do 00:10:00you think they were -- what do you, I mean -- I'm don't want to put words in your mouth. But if you were to give some sort of a reaction -- you spent some time learning from these people.

HOFFMAN: If I had been alive in 1934? I would've led the -- I would've led the strike. I would've led the charge against the mill with, uh, a copy of Karl Marx under my arm, leading the proletarian revolution against capitalism. And I hope this ain't on tape. (laughter) No, that can't go on -- no, but I'm serious. Really. No, I -- I don't -- I don't want to be quoted on that. But I'm serious. My opinion of the strike back then? Hey, if I'd been a worker back then, you're damn right. I would've been on the strike, yeah. Because working conditions were terrible. Nine year old girls working 12, 14 hours a day, never seeing the light of day? Never seeing sunlight? Working the same hours as adults, to contribute to the family wage? What they call the family wage. All the members of a family. Children quit elementary school, third grade, to go work in the mill for the family wage. Very small 00:11:00children working the mill, 14 hours a day. Didn't see daylight. Hard work, breathing lint, cotton dust. Um working with dangerous equipment. Think I would have tolerated that? Hell, no. Uh-uh, uh-uh. No way, no way. They had legit-- in my opinion -- workers had legitimate grievances. In my opinion, they had legitimate uh, uh, objectives to strike for. Very low wages when uh, they were learning the job. Before they learned the job. They may work six months without being paid anything while they were on their training program. So, if it took six months to learn a job, they worked for six months without pay. OK, and then even after they, uh, completed their training program and started their job, uh, they were paid just not -- by the standards of the time -- paid nominal wages. Just next to nothing. I have in mind -- I don't know if it's right -- $7.50 a month, a week, or something like that. But very little. So, uh, 00:12:00they had legitimate, legitimate complaints.

IRONS: So, therefore, as historians, what obligation do we have --

HOFFMAN: To tell it like it is?

IRONS: -- to tell their story.

HOFFMAN: Tell it like it is?

IRONS: What, what is it about that history --

HOFFMAN: You got to tell it --

IRONS: That people today need to --

HOFFMAN: Well, I think any, anybody that's uh, objective, or trying to be objective, uh, needs to tell it like it is. Let the chips fall where they may, and tell the, uh, bad with the good. Tell the bad with the good. Uh, I don't think you can leave anything out that uh, because uh, you may think or I may think, uh, would be sensitive to other people. Again, you've got to let the chips fall where they may.

GEORGE STONEY: OK.

HELFAND: Well, I want to know. Based on all of your discomfort that we've been talking about, and having to live here. Relate that to your experience in going out and talking to people about this strike, and what their response was.

HOFFMAN: Well, I can't speak for other people. I don't know why they did not want to talk about the strike. I do not know why they still have strong feelings, so I can't, I can't talk for other people or address questions of why they didn't want to discuss it. Uh, I would think that they still have strong feelings on the union issue. They still have strong feelings that they were labor. They still have strong feelings against management, and vice versa. Uh, and um, uh, I never assessed it in terms of fear, thinking -- or thought that people would be afraid to discuss it. There wouldn't be any threat of fear in terms of retaliation for what they may say today. Uh, in 1934, I think that was a very real factor. In fact, uh, union workers were uh, overtly threatened with retaliation. Physical retaliation, getting beat up. If uh, they uh, continued with the strike. Today that's not a factor. I, I think it's just more a matter that people have strong feelings about this that 00:14:00they'd just as soon not talk about. But no, not, not -- not fear, in terms of any kind of retaliation.

GEORGE STONEY: The other day, we were um, talking to a scholar and he said, "How are you going to prevent this film from being an advocacy film? How are you going to keep it an even film? So that you're not taking sides." My answer was that we are revealing a side of history that hasn't been told. And so, many people will feel that it's an advocacy film because we are delving into a part of history that hasn't been told. I compared it to the work now being done about the anti-Confederacy movements in the South. As you know, there were many, many people in the South who really didn't like the Confederacy. And fought against it. But most of that history has been brushed 00:15:00under the rug for over 100 years. We're just beginning to realize the size of that. And many people think that that's advocacy, you see. It's an interesting comparison.

HOFFMAN: Yeah, it is. I think a lot of what you're saying relates to trying to be objective uh, with uh, what you're researching, and uh, being willing to let the chips fall where they may. As far as advocating one side or another, um, you just have to pretty much tell it like it is.

GEORGE STONEY: OK. OK, I think we've got a --

HELFLAND: Yeah.

(break in audio)

GEORGE STONEY: You can just drop your paper and I'll --

JAMIE STONEY: Speed.

GEORGE STONEY: OK?

JAMIE STONEY: Just a second.

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah, sorry.

JAMIE STONEY: All right.

HOFFMAN: Ready?

JAMIE STONEY: Yup.

HOFFMAN: OK, during the late 1890s, there was a movement in Alabama to attract northern industry to the state. Um, in context with this, a group of 10 local 00:16:00citizens donated a total of 168 acres of land to uh, the Nichols family to locate Dwight Mill in Alabama City, Alabama. The uh, 168 acres of land was donated to the mill for $1. So, basically these citizens donated the property to Dwight Mill.

GEORGE STONEY: Good, OK, fine.

JAMIE STONEY: That it?

(break in video)

IRONS: This one says --

JAMIE STONEY: Rolling.

IRONS: Mm-mm. OK, this is the Gadsden Times.

HOFFMAN: Uh, yes. We have the uh, July 12th um, uh, headline on Dwight Mill employees, um, going out on strike. This relates to the initial walkout at Dwight Mill, when employees um, uh walked out of the mill to go on strike.

IRONS: OK. We can move on. Um... This is July 15th. I think there was something, maybe, earlier. On July 14th. Yes.

HOFFMAN: OK. On July 14th, um, this relates to the company closing the mill down for the duration on the -- for the duration of the strike. On the 14th, the company closed the pant -- plant -- completely, and the remain-- the plant remained closed um, for the duration of the strike. And we have an article on the --

IRONS: Look at this.

HOFFMAN: -- on the plant closing.

IRONS: It says, "Police reported that there had been no disorder during the day, and that the picketing at the plant is being done by hundreds of strikers." And here it says, "Women and children were in the front lines of the picketers."

HOFFMAN: Yes, yes. Um, this has been an issue of the strike. Whether or not women and children were used on the picket lines. The union claimed that women and children were not put on the picket lines. The uh, the company claimed that 00:18:00they were, and this has uh, been an issue that uh, emerged, uh, during the strike.

IRONS: It also says here that strike leaders were endeavoring to keep order and to protect the company property against the slightest invasion or destruction.

HOFFMAN: Uh-huh. Yes. Another issue emerged from whether or not there was violence or how much violence occurred at the plant during the strike. And this is something that's been hard to, hard to determine.

GEORGE STONEY: [Jeff?], when you're talking with her, just look up for it.

HOFFMAN: Oh --

(break in video)

JAMIE STONEY: OK, we have speed again.

M1: We ought to start over on that last passage, in my opinion.

GEORGE STONEY: About the children?

M1: Yeah.

IRONS: The whole thing?

M1: No, the last page that they did. On the 14th.

GEORGE STONEY: Talking about the children, yes, all right.

HOFFMAN: OK, OK. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) OK.

IRONS: OK, this is July 14th, 1934.

HOFFMAN: OK, yes. On July 14th, 1934, we have an article on the company closing 00:19:00the plant down, uh. On the 14th, the company closed the plant for the, uh, duration of the strike.

IRONS: Look at this, it says that uh, there had been no disorder, according to the police and that there was picketing at the plant by hundreds of strikers.

HOFFMAN: Yes, a major issue uh, resulted from this. Uh, the union claimed that no women and children were used on the picket lines, but the company maintained that women and children were used on the picket lines.

(break in video)

HELFAND: Janet's free to move as much as she wants to.

IRONS: Do you want to say anything else before we start about how -- what we're doing? Because we can -- (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).

IRONS: Hey, we're like, willing to do anything.

GEORGE STONEY: But I'm very anxious to get that business about the children.

IRONS: OK.

HOFFMAN: Oh, you do want that?

GEORGE STONEY: Oh, yes.

HOFFMAN: OK.

JAMIE STONEY: Yeah, we're rolling.

HELFLAND: This is, uh, Saturday July 15th, 1934.

HOFFMAN: Yes, on uh, July 14th, uh, the company, uh, as reflected in this article here, we're looking at. The company closed the mill down, um, for the duration of the strike and uh, kept the uh, plant closed, uh, for the duration of the strike.

IRONS: It says here, "Police reported early this afternoon that there had been no disorder during the day, and that picketing of the plant was being done by hundreds of strikers. Yesterday, the police said that women and children were in the front lines of the picketers."

HOFFMAN: Uh, yes. I've tried to get information on this. Uh, there've been -- a major issue has emerged, uh, from this. The company maintained that women and children were used on the picket lines during the strike. The union claimed that no women and children were used on the picket lines. So, this has been a major issue that resulted from the strike, and it's been difficult to tell what happened.

IRONS: Mm-hmm. "It was learned this morning that strike leaders and endeavoring to keep order and to protect company property against the slightest invasion or destruction."

HOFFMAN: Uh, yes. This is another issue that emerged during -- uh, during the strike. Um, was the degree of violence or, uh, how much violence occurred during the strike. But again, the different points of view, uh, different 00:21:00points of view on this.

IRONS: OK. Let's see if we can move on, here. I don't think there was anything on the 15th, but I see that maybe here. Monday, July 16th. 1934. This is about the, um Alabama State Council of Textile Workers meeting.

HOFFMAN: Uh, yes. On the 16th, after uh, several local mills in north Alabama had already gone on strike, uh, the state labor council uh, uh, called a meeting to determine the course of action uh, that they would take concerning the mills that had already walked out. OK. So, this relates to the state coun-- council of textile workers, uh, with the, uh, general strike, uh, and it talks about the meeting of the state council.

IRONS: Says, uh, "The Alabama State Council -- the Alabama State Textile Council, today, had full authority to call 22,000 textile workers out of the Alabama mills on strike. But the day for the walkout was a closely guarded secret."

HOFFMAN: Yeah, yeah. That's correct.

IRONS: That's great. And now, let's see. This is the next day. July 17th, and we have a new mill out on strike.

HOFFMAN: OK. Uh, uh, during July, uh, mills went out at different times. Uh, there wasn't a uniform walkout. So, what happened was, during the course of the strike in uh, July, is different mills uh, went on strike. It was reported in the paper. And this relates to uh, OK... The Sequoia Mill employees who uh, walked out on the uh, 17th.

GEORGE STONEY: OK, now I think that we can skip --

IRONS: Yes.

GEORGE STONEY: Just stop it.

(break in video)

IRONS: With workers at Birmingham. "Peace Move Likely." "Governor Miller Still Declines to Order Out Troops!"

GEORGE STONEY: OK, now --

IRONS: Uh, this is, uh, August 1st, 1934.

HOFFMAN: Yes. On August 1st, uh, we have an article that relates to Governor Miller's uh, uh, uh, failure to call out the National Guard, uh, during the strike. Governor Miller kept a very low profile during the strike. He never made his position known, and did not take an active, uh, role in the strike, one way or another. Um, he did not use the National Guard on a large scale, uh, as were, uh, it was used in other states. Uh, in Alabama, most towns did not have National Guard troops uh, either supervise the strike or try to contain the strike or try to contain strike violence. Uh, this was more common in other 00:24:00states, but we didn't have this in Alabama. Governor Miller's role is really, is really minor, because he did not, uh, directly have anything to do with the strike. So, on August 1st, uh, we have Governor Miller's decision not to call out the troops on the strike. And this article just relates the course of the strike, uh, at the 1st of August.

IRONS: Mm-hmm, OK. That's great. OK, we're just kind of moving through. Sorry to be pushing these in front of you. See if you see anything. This is very similar, probably, to exactly the kind of research --

HOFFMAN: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

IRONS: -- that you did, right?

HOFFMAN: This was -- this was it.

IRONS: Going through, page by page. And you wait for those gems to show up.

HOFFMAN: That's right.

IRONS: But there doesn't seem to be anything here in that early part of August.

HOFFMAN: Yeah. There wasn't much local news on the Dwight situation until, until the end of the, end of the strike. Now let's see, do we have something here?

IRONS: This is, uh, Friday, August 17th, 1934.

HOFFMAN: OK. August 17th, uh --

IRONS: "Roosevelt Alone Can Stop Strike of Textile Workers, Leader Says." That must be McMann.

HOFFMAN: Right. McMann. Uh, by August 17th, the strike had spread from north Alabama to other states, and had uh, by the 17th, uh, become a national cotton textile strike. Uh, McMann was the national president of the UTWA, all right. He was national president and, OK. Here --

IRONS: I think they're reporting on the, um, convention that took place in New York.

HOFFMAN: OK.

IRONS: Because that was, uh, exactly when the convention took place.

HOFFFMAN: Yeah, yeah.

IRONS: And uh, so what they were doing is, um, authorizing uh, the leadership to call a strike. Um, at that convention. The members demanded it, really. Um, "McMann said the cotton textile employers had never recognized the United Textile Workers as the collective bargaining representative." And then they talk about Gorman also. And uh, maybe we'd get some more on the next...

HOFFMAN: OK.

IRONS: OK. Well, let's see. Here we go.

M1: Could you, uh, tuck your necklace in again? Or tuck your shirt? I'm sorry.

(break in video)

HELFAND: (inaudible)

IRONS: "Textile Strike Plans Backed by Federation." That's Saturday, August the 18th. "Half a million persons are employed in the cotton textile mills. Woolen and worsted and synthetic rayon groups voted to go out at the same time as the cotton workers will go on strike, and the union's executive committee has been instructed to call this strike by September 1st."

HOFFMAN: Right, yeah.

IRONS: So, that's where we are. So, after that convention is over, I wonder if there's going to be much going on. "Green Seeks to Prevent Strike." This is Wednesday, August 22nd. Green is the head of the AF of L.

HOFFMAN: AFL, right. Right.

IRONS: So, he tries to see if he can avoid it.

HOFFMAN: Because the AFL lead the national strike effort, basically. The United Textile Workers of America was uh, um, under the overall supervision of the uh, AFL, and there were efforts made to coordinate the strike with the AFL, and Green was the national leader of the AFL.

IRONS: OK. And then, uh, but they don't have much about what's going on locally, here. They're just really focusing on the fact that the national strike --

HOFFMAN: Yeah, that's --

IRONS: -- is coming forward.

HOFFMAN: Right, right.

IRONS: And now, is this about the textile workers? This is Tuesday, August 28th. "Conference on Strike Arranged. Labor Leaders to Stand Firm." Uh, sounds like the government is trying to set up some kind of a conference to avoid the strike.

HOFFMAN: Uh, yeah. As the strike progressed, what you had -- and what 00:29:00eventually happened -- was that the outcome of the strike, or the course of the strike, uh, was determined nationally, uh, by McMann, um, and the uh, and the head of the uh, management, uh, organization. And I think his name -- maybe we're going to have to cut this.

IRONS: Was Sloan! It was Sloan.

HOFFMAN: Sloan!

IRONS: Yeah!

HOFFMAN: Sloan!

IRONS: Yeah!

HOFFMAN: Sloan. You're -- yeah. Sloan was the uh, head of uh, what is the management organization? Uh, I forget.

IRONS: Cotton Textile Institute.

HOFFMAN: Cotton -- you, you're right.

IRONS: Is that right? Yeah.

HOFFMAN: Exactly, exactly.

IRONS: OK?

HOFFMAN: OK. So, basically, the strike was ultimately determined by, you're right, Sloane and McMann. And when the strike ended at the national level, uh, workers here, locally, uh, in Alabama City, went back to [strike?]. But yeah, OK. That's --

IRONS: And then they also have something here about the Gadsden Central Labor Council is sponsoring a big Labor Day celebration.

HOFFMAN: Mm-hmm.

IRONS: And they're gonna have a parade, made up of several thousand local people. To start from 12th street and Forest Avenue, and move up through the city.