Bill Winn Interview

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BILL WINN: -- fairly typical.

CREW: (inaudible)

WINN: Oh, I thought you (inaudible). This is a fairly typical row of millhouses in Columbus, and this particular community associated with [little swift?] mills, textile mills. It used to be the whole city was covered with these sorts of houses. Many of them were in much worse condition than these. They would be whitewashed shotgun shacks, most often owned by the mill thems-- themselves, mill owners themselves. Particularly Bibb City, which was an entire community, built of, uh, of this sort of housing. When I was a boy growing up here in the '40s and '50s, uh, this was a -- a common site. Uh, now it's very rare. One of the things that's happened in our city is that the mills, of course, have become automated, and we've had a reduction, a substantial reduction in the workforce here of, uh, operatives, uh, from a high probably of let's say 00:03:0025% of the town's population, uh, having been employed in the mills prior to, uh, World War I. We're now down to a very small percentage. I don't know the actual percentage now, but around 5% maximum, I would think. So there's been significant reduction both in numbers of people who work in the mills, and of course, uh, in the number of peoples who live in mill housing. A lot of this housing is now owned by the mill workers, although a great deal of it is simply rental property owned by agencies or -- or i-- in some cases, I'm sure, still the mill them-- mills themselves. Uh, automation has, uh, also affected the mill families and the mill communities in this town. Uh, since [the?] fewer workers are required to run the machinery, and since it has become relatively high tech, uh, quite a few people have left Columbus from mill families, don't live here anymore or have gone into other, uh, types of, uh, labor. And so we have fewer people living in the mill communities themselves. And, uh, as the 00:04:00people get older, uh, we have a geriatric mill community. And, uh, as the people get older and -- and die, uh, the old traditions here, uh, knowledge of the past, uh, is -- is rapidly disappearing. It's a, uh, bittersweet loss, of course, the loss of this, uh, textile culture. One things that, uh, the people are better off. One hopes that -- who got out of here, went on to better lives. Uh, still I -- I feel, uh, a sense of loss, uh, and a sense of identity. Um, I think the people in -- in, uh, do too in their own way. And, uh, even if they're happy to get out of here and better off in their own lives, uh, I think they look back on this mill experience with, uh, with a mixture of -- of 00:05:00anger, and some regret.

GEORGE STONEY: Can you talk about the choice of preservation? What they're choosing to preserve?

WINN: Sure. Uh --

STONEY: Uh, and -- and be sure to look at us more when you talk.

WINN: Oh, OK. The mill culture is not seen as a culture in this town. Uh, there is no demand of -- uh, among historic preservationists, for example, to preserve a row of millhouses. Uh, they'd much rather preserve the homes of the rich, uh, who made their money off the people who lives in these houses. And in fact, that's what's going on in the city. Um, recently, I asked the editor of the paper I worked at, uh, if I could do a series on the -- on the mill people in Columbus on their culture, on their lifestyle, and -- and so on. And he said to me, uh, those p-- "I didn't know those people had any culture." Uh, there's not a great consciousness or awareness of, um -- of 00:06:00the textile millworker, outside of the m-- their own immediate community, which is i-- in itself, disintegrating, as you can -- as you will see.

CREW: (inaudible)

STONEY: Now, one other thing I'd like to -- this will be a separate cut.

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WINN: OK. Uh, OK.

STONEY: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)

WINN: The housing such as you see, uh, behind me here, is reasonably typical mill housing. Uh, it was built for millworkers, uh, by the mill owners, uh, really beginning shortly after the Civil War. Uh, there was a boom in Columbus in 1880s and 1890s, uh, in the mills and a great many people, uh, from the countryside, uh, poor white farmers, uh, dirt farmers, um, uh, came into down 00:07:00and got jobs in the mills. Frequently, the mill housing, uh, was better, uh, than anything they had known on the farms. And of course, they did get a wage, even if their wage was 25 cents or 50 cents a day. And one of the curious things about the South that distinguishes it from the rest of the nation is that we've had many depressions here. We had a farm depression in 1880, we had terrible farm depressions in 1890, and many of the people who live in these houses today ancestors came into Columbus, uh, during that time. There was a great deal of violence in the country around c-- uh, Columbus during the agrarian movement in the 1880s and 1890s, associated with the Farmers' Alliance. And, uh, a lot of farmers, uh, abandoned their -- their farms as a result of, uh -- of both violence and oppression, uh, gave up, as they would phrase it, and came to town to go to work for wages. Um, some of these 00:08:00people's ancestors undoubtedly, uh, were among those. Forgot one thing I need to say about them too, but anyway.

STONEY: Also, this might be a good place to talk about the attitude towards the ( break in video)-- (inaudible) close on you.

WINN: OK.

STONEY: (inaudible)

WINN: Of course, when the boll weevil hit Georgia in 1913, uh, the whole cotton culture changed. Not only the cotton culture in the fields, uh, but also in the towns as well. By 1920, the boll weevil had fairly well decimated the cotton, uh, growing culture in Georgia. Uh, many of the people who lived on the farms and raised the cotton gave up and came to town. Uh, and curiously, where, uh, found, uh, employment in the mills. Of course, the mills were able to import the raw material, bales of cotton from other areas, unaffected by, uh, the boll 00:09:00weevil. But, uh, most of the, uh, people who had to raise cotton and were not in the planter class, uh, had to abandon it as a, uh, way to make a living and came to town. This included both blacks and whites. Of course, black people were rarely employed in the cotton mills at all until --

STONEY: (inaudible)

WINN: Oh, OK.

STONEY: (inaudible) pick up on that. (inaudible)

WINN: As early as 1840s, the mill owners in Columbus made a decision to exclude blacks from employment in the mills. Uh. The argument was in those days, of course, whether to use slave labor, uh, in the mills, and they decided against it. Uh, this has had profound effects on this city, uh, and on the mill culture here, which is almost exclusively white. Some blacks were hired in very menial labor position, as sweepers in the mills or as bale rollers. But, uh, only very 00:10:00recently have blacks been employed in the mills as genuine operatives. Um, curiously enough, the first cotton mills in this city were operated by slaves, but they were Indian slaves. Um, just a few miles behind me down the river is the oldest cotton mill in the Chattahoochee River Valley, and it was, uh, built in around 1800. Um --

STONEY: (inaudible) talk about the class (inaudible).

WINN: Yes. Oh. Mingled with the, uh, the element of overt racism in, uh, mill employment, uh, throughout most of their existence, uh, has -- uh, has been in -- in this city, of course, uh, a -- a -- a class difference. Uh, the operatives in the mill were known by, uh, several, uh, negative, uh, names. Uh, lintheads being one. When I was a child growing up here in the 1940s and 00:11:00'50s, um, to be called a linthead -- or indeed, to be a linthead -- uh, excluded you from most of the, uh, social life of the rest of the city, to put it mildly. Uh, you were looked down upon, uh, you felt, uh, excluded, uh, you not only were poor, uh, you were e-- excluded in many wa-- in many other ways, uh, from society. You were considered ignorant. Um, more than likely, you were uneducated, uh, until we had effective child labor and education laws in this state, which were -- uh, which was much more recent than in most of the rest of the United States. You likely would get a maximum of 12 weeks education a year. Um, so, uh, to be poor and to be white, uh, and to work in the mills, uh, in Columbus, Georgia, uh, for most of their existence, has been, uh, uh, a heavy 00:12:00load to carry. I got one thing I could say about that, George, I forgot.

STONEY: (inaudible)

WINN: In fact, the -- the differences between people who worked in the mills and those who didn't was institutionalized in this city's educational system. We built here, uh, in the early part of this century, a vocational high school, one of the first vocational high schools in the South, Jordon Vocational High School. It was in an in-- called industrial high school I believe, but it was specifically built f-- to teach people to operate, uh, mill machinery. And, uh, the city, of course, promoted this all over the nation as a, um, most progressive, uh, step forward in the, uh, education of, uh -- o-- of children of 00:13:00the community. But in fact, it was, uh, for the mill owners benefit. Uh, that school is still standing, by the way. Uh, and it's still associated in the minds of the community -- though not nearly so much as in the past -- with the mill culture in Columbus. To say, for example, that "I'm a graduate of Jordon High School in Columbus" still is quite a different thing than saying "I'm a graduate of Columbus high school."

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WINN: -- town, and I own everything in it.

CREW: Got that on tape now.

(inaudible)

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WINN: The building behind me, which didn't look like this when I was a boy, it's been spruced up considerably, was the fundamentalist church of a very 00:14:00interesting character in this city named Parson Jack Johnson, who among other things, in the 1940s, was head of the Ku Klux Klan here. He was an agent for the Talmadge forces i-- in politics in Georgia, and he published a weekly newspaper, which was distributed primarily to poor whites and mill workers. The newspaper was, um, simultaneously antiunion, anti-black, and anti-legislative reform. Surreptitiously, it was in part financed by the mill owners, who bought -- who subsidized it, both by buying advertising in it, uh, and by undercover 00:15:00payments. But of course, the Reverend Johnston received money from numerous sources in the white community. Historically, here, the labor union movement in textile industry is associated with integration. And one of the reasons that the labor union movement in Columbus, uh, has had so much difficulty over the years is the threat that mill owners would b-- would bring in black operatives to take the place of striking workers. Or for that matter, of workers who protested their working conditions at all. So it has been a two-edge sword here for the mill owners. On the one hand, they could use the threat of bringing in black operatives to suppress any union movements among whites in the mills, and at the same time, they could use this -- um, the anti-black feeling among the 00:16:00white people here in the -- the, uh, prejudice and -- and, uh, resentment, uh, to foment, uh, discord between the blacks and the white workers, and, uh, thus keep control of both. This was a deliberate policy. It was not an accident. The, uh, decision to exclude blacks from the textile industry in Columbus, uh, was made quite deliberately, uh, as early as the 1840s, and was a policy followed throughout my childhood in the 1940s and '50s. It's only recently changed, and this building you see behind you here, which as I say, was the home of a fundamentalist church here, uh, and also the location of the newspaper, uh, played a great role, uh, in that process.

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00:17:00

WINN: During the 1890s and early 1900s, the mill owners worked very deliberately to link unions with outside influence or agitators, as they called them, and even with the socialist and communist movement. You were taught if you were white and you grew up in this community very deliberately that Christian people, uh, did not, uh, advocate, uh, unions. And, uh, you were furthermore instructed that to support the labor union movement would -- would make you, uh, a virtual outcast. Which, indeed, it would in this community. The progressive element in this city -- and that's a technical term, having to do with the Progressive Party -- in this city's downtown urban population was associated directly with progress-- with the Progressive Party, was a very subtle -- uh, practiced very 00:18:00subtle manipulation of the politics i-- in regards to this matter. They played the rural element, the farming element, which -- from which most of the workers in the textile mills were recruited, off against the in-town urban element, uh, of both white skilled workers, and also the potential labor pool represented by black workers. Uh, one result of this was that there were almost no black employees in the mills, and almost no person would admit openly to being pro-labor, pro-union.

STONEY: (inaudible)

WINN: Now, I don't mean to imply that, uh -- that there was no union sympathy 00:19:00here in the city. Uh, there were strikes and -- and -- and attempts at organization in Columbus going back well before the, uh, 1900s. Uh, there was intense labor union activity here, and a great many of the workers, uh, were involved in the union movement, and were, uh, both publicly and privately pro-union. To be pro-union publicly, though, certainly, uh, meant that you risked your job at the mill. This was no secret. One of the curious things about Columbus and about the history of the labor union movement here is that for several years, in the early 1900s, we had a socialist newspaper published here called The Herald. Uh, it was a marvelous newspaper by any standards. Uh, Eugene Debs spoke here in Columbus several times at the courthouse, and the -- the newspaper was linked to the worldwide, uh, socialist movement, and, uh, was 00:20:00published -- I think, uh, finally went out of business around 1907 or 1908. Um, one of the reasons I'm interested in journalism and one of the reasons I do what I do is, uh, from my experience of reading this newspaper, which is still today, um, uh, one of the best, uh, newspapers I've ever read, and one of the most courageous.

STONEY: (inaudible)

WINN: OK. Uh, Columbus was a center of, uh, AF of L activity, uh, and was, um, uh, during the 1934 strikes and -- and earlier, uh, was, um, a center of union activity, not just i-- in the -- not just locally, but also in the surrounding mill towns. You understand that Columbus is part of a -- uh, of a chain of -- of cotton mill cities that goes as far north here, uh, on the river as, uh, West 00:21:00Point, Lynette, a-- and to some degree, LaGrange. Um, and, uh, that extends to the mills in Opelika to the west, Anniston, and elsewhere. Uh, the, uh, labor union movement here in Columbus in the 1830s, uh, was a powerful movement, uh, that really, um, had its roots in the early 1900s, uh, when Prince Green, uh, who lived here for many years, uh, was head of the, uh, International Textile Workers Union. Uh, he was a good friend of Gompers, uh, his name is, uh, totally forgotten in this city today. Uh, and yet he was part -- he was instrumental in, uh, labor union organization in this city, uh, for many years, both here and in Augusta, uh, and also in New York and elsewhere. All memories, 00:22:00all trace of the labor union movement in Columbus has practically been from that era, has practically been, uh, officially effaced. And you will not find either the -- either the strikes of the '30s or the '20s mentioned today, uh, in this city, outside of the union hall itself.

STONEY: Fine. (inaudible)

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WINN: The labor union movement here in the 1930s was a very powerful movement, and had its roots really in the early 1900s. For years, Columbus was the home office of the National Textile Workers Union, and its president, Prince Green, lived here. From Columbus, he -- Green helped organize labor union movement 00:23:00throughout the South. He was a good friend of Gompers, uh, he was very active in both the Columbus strikes and in the strikes in Augusta. But, uh, as with so many other parts of our history, particularly associated with the unions here in Columbus, in the textile mills, Prince Green's name, uh, has almost been forgotten here. Uh, and you won't find him mentioned in any of the city's official histories or in the newspaper.