OPAL MCMICHAEL: When my daddy left the country, the only choice he had was to
go a cotton mill and it broke his heart. He couldn't -- he couldn't bear the thoughts of it because he didn't like the -- he didn't like the thoughts of us being raised in a cotton mill because he loved the farm. He loved the land. And he wanted to raise his family there because he had been always made a good living. We'd always had a good life in the country. And when he seen there was no other choice, I -- he told me that I could go to where -- I could come to East Newnan and see if I could get a job. I had some relatives there, so I got on the train. We had a little train. It was called the [Doogan?] and it ran between Carrollton and Newnan and went on down to Raymond. So, I got on the Doogan and I came to East Newnan. And I applied for a job and they gave me a job. I came on Sunday and I went to work on Monday. And my daddy didn't 00:01:00have a job right then. He knew he had the promise of a job. And I worked for about two weeks before he went to work. And he was -- he was heartbroken. It hurt his pride to, you know -- If you've loved your work and what you've always been accustomed to and have to leave it, it was like leaving -- I guess an old friend. I'll say it was like leaving an old friend. Because he dearly loved the land. And he always made good crops. He worked hard. And anybody would tell you that he raised good crops. As good as anybody around. He took care of his livestock. He took care of his animals and the wagons and everything around the farm. And so, when we had to leave, he had to leave all of that because, you see, you couldn't keep the cows and things. You could keep a cow, too, but you couldn't keep mules and horses and pigs and such is that right then. But later on, they did let us have -- they did have -- built 00:02:00some houses off in the pasture. And he got his own cow and he got a pig. And so raised some hogs. And he raised a cow. But it wasn't anything to compare with what he had in the country. See, when we lived in the country, he had huge barns of corn. And he had fodder. And he had hay. And just all kinds of things like that piled up, you know. See, we had it in reserve. We didn't have to worry about tomorrow. But when you live at the mill, you still -- you always have a feeling -- If I don't do like they say, I'm out of here. So, it was quite different from being your own boss and having a boss over you. And he had never had that, you see. So, it was heartbreaking for him. And he always, until the day he died, he loved the country. But he died at East Point, Georgia. My brother -- I had a brother that worked up there. And my daddy had then got old and he wasn't able to go back to work then. And so he lived at 00:03:00East Point when he died.GEORGE STONEY: I'm curious. He's obviously that had a lot of get up and go
about him.MCMICHAEL: He -- he was. Everybody would say -- Even when he worked in the
mail, they said Tom Wilson did more work than any one man they had ever seen. And I'm not boasting. I'm telling it like it was. He was a hard-worker because he was raised that way.STONEY: I just wonder then why they didn't pick him up and make him a supervisor.
MCMICHAEL: They had their own -- When he went there, you see, they had their own
ones and they never changed. Now, my husband, at one time, they wanted him to be a supervisor. And they told him what he would have to -- what he would be called if he was a supervisor. He said, "I'll just keep the job I've got."HELFAND: What would have he had been called?
MCMICHAEL: A bad word. When anybody got mad at him, you see. If he said
something to them, they would tell what -- how -- tell him off or he would have still took it. (inaudible) 00:04:00STONEY: That's a rough place to have to be a -- a -- a small boss like that.
MCMICHAEL: Yeah. But, you know, it's so different now. I -- I didn't work
-- you know, after West Point (inaudible) came here, they was -- Vernon -- Mount Vernon mills came here. And then one other after East Newnan went out. But they were modernized, had pretty hard wood floors, and pretty fixtures. And it was just -- it was just real nice. So different from what it had been. But anyway, we all lived through it. And, you know, it's fun to go back and think about it. And I can say that I came up the hard way. But I enjoyed it. But I did have, you know -- I had good opportunities later on in life. And I wound up working in a florist right here on Greenville Street. That was my last job.JUDITH HELFAND: Was it hard for you to see your dad work inside?
MCMICHAEL: Mm-hmm. Real hard. Because I knew his heart wasn't it. He worked
-- he gave it -- he gave his all to it, but I knew that his mind was in the 00:05:00country. He had his mind on the country. But he gave his all in the cotton mill.STONEY: Did you know a man named Zimmerman?
MCMICHAEL: My husband did. I didn't. They were from Hogansville, but they
had moved from East Newnan to Hogansville. But we have a reunion -- We have the Hogansville and East Newnan reunion once a year, and the Zimmerman girls were there this year. But see, my husband knew those people because he was raised there. See, I was raised on a farm until we had to go to the cotton mill.STONEY: Now, we have some newsreel footage. And I wonder if you would mind
taking a look at that to see if you could identify some people.MCMICHAEL: All right.
STONEY: Taken in 1934.
MCMICHAEL: All right.
STONEY: OK?
MCMICHAEL: All right.
STONEY: So, we'll have to break a few minutes to get it all set up. OK?
(break in video)
NEWSREEL: Typically those arrested are charged with attempting to prevent the
reopening of the Newnan Mills. Reminecest of World War days, the hastly 00:06:00constructed interment camp in which strikers are confined. This one is in the back of Fort McPhearson at Atlanta.MCMICHAEL: I remember that.
NEWSREEL: … barbed wire enclosure surrounding the camp, while the prisioners
learn how it feels to be on the inside looking out. Chow time, a lot of healthy appitites, and the incaerseated ladies make the best of their predicament. Its plain old Army grub, plain but nourishing and the state is paying for it.MCMICHAEL: Yeah. All right. I remember that. I wish I could recognize some of
them, but I don't any of them were from East Newnan. I don't believe -- I don't believe they were.STONEY: Now, these are just some scenes repeated.
MCMICHAEL: Mm-hmm.
STONEY: [Awful?] sound.
MCMICHAEL: That's the National Guard, ain't it?
STONEY: Yes, that's right. And so, we'll just roll the rest of this silent,
and you may be able to recognize some of the people. Maybe you may recognize some of the buildings. 00:07:00MCMICHAEL: I might have been in that crowd. I don't see a church, though. We
were standing right near the church. It's familiar looking, but I don't know any of them. I can't recognize any of them, but it brings back a lot of 00:08:00memories. I wish that man who had the stick would be with us. (laughter)STONEY: (laughter)
MCMICHAEL: Police putting him in the car, weren't they? Was that made at
00:09:00union cotton mill? I was going to say that might have been down at the bridge because there was a crowd of people there. And there were trees across the street from it. But see, those people in trucks, they had come from other places there. 00:10:00STONEY: Remember what Governor Talmadge had said about this?
MCMICHAEL: I will when you repeat it, I guess, but I can't think right now. I
remember when he had come to Newnan, but it was so crazy Talmadge. Now, that's -- I imagine that's sort of like the little place where they were down below the mill. The one that had the sticks guarding mill, you know. That looks kind of like something that they would have. I don't know if that's 00:11:00it or not. But that fence must be up at Fort Mack, is it? Haven't had (inaudible)? Do you think that was something they carried into the -- Lord, 00:12:00yeah. There were those long dresses is hot in the mill. That big, fat one looks like me. I wasn't it, though. (laughter)HELFAND: That was [Maude?] Granger.
MCMICHAEL: Who?
HELFAND: Maude Granger.
MCMICHAEL: Maude Granger. Oh, you know some of the people -- I mean, you know
the faces?HELFAND: I just know the name.
MCMICHAEL: That's what I mean. I mean, you recognize them on here. Where was
she from? Hogansville, probably.STONEY: Do you know why the people at Hogansville were so strong for the union
when the people at East Newnan were not?MCMICHAEL: I know they were making more money all the time than the people at
East Newnan. Always did. By the way, I had a friend buried just about six or eight weeks ago that had that -- called it "black lung," you know, from running that asbestos. That's when my husband knew the Zimmermans. See, they 00:13:00left East Newnan and went to Hogansville. And they did make more money there. But they would say about the East Newnan people, they had to have that East Newnan water. If they left, they'd have to come back. How long did they stay 00:14:00up there?STONEY: About a week.
MCMICHAEL: I wish I could -- But most of them was from Hogansville, I'm sure.
Because I don't remember of any of them from East Newnan. Now, that's playing. Do you know those? 00:15:00[Silence]
00:16:00MCMICHAEL: I just don't know any of them. Don't
recognize them, probably. You'd say -- I had forgotten about feeding them like that. They didn't do that (inaudible). They called that the Pen, 00:17:00didn't they? 00:18:00STONEY: That's all the footage we have.
MCMICHAEL: Well, I wish that I could have recognized some of them. But I
didn't know too many people from Hogansville. Now, the Zimmermans, see, I just got to know them after they started having the East Newnan and Hogansville reunion. My husband knew a lot of people at Hogansville, but I didn't.STONEY: OK. One other thing, Jamie. Just wanted to go back to the -- We'll
put off this television set then. Boy, you got a good set here.MCMICHAEL: It's old. I've had it 15 years. I don't know how it --
STONEY: It certainly showed up well on that set. Back to something that we
talked about before, and just wanted to see if you could tell us once again about it. And that is the way this union and non-union split families and neighborhoods. So, could you tell us about that again? 00:19:00MCMICHAEL: Well, there was a little confusion down there because some of the
families were for the union and others were against it. And naturally, it got down to the children, you know. And you know how children will argue about things. The children were more -- seemed to be more concerned than the grown-ups were about it because they were frightened anyway. But neighborhoods kind of felt hard at each other. The ones that didn't belong to the union held a grudge against the one that didn't join. But a lot of them, as I said a while ago, a lot of them didn't know which side you were on until it came to the showdown, you know. And so, it was -- They stayed that way for a while, but then when they all went back to work, everybody was a little shame-faced. I remember that. Everybody was a little -- looked a little down, you know. Because they had come to the end of the rope and they knew that was it. And so, it wasn't too long. Not many, I guess, maybe two or three weeks and everything was back to normal. So, they just -- There weren't any hard 00:20:00feelings carried over for a period of time. It was just for a while that they were kind of upset with each other.STONEY: Now, we went through -- We went up the library and went through the
local papers.MCMICHAEL: Uh-huh.
STONEY: And the local papers were absolutely dead set against the strike and the
unions right from the beginning.MCMICHAEL: Yes.
STONEY: Could you talk about that?
MCMICHAEL: Well, what I can remember -- See, I wasn't -- I wasn't in the --
If I would have been working then, I would have known more about it. But see, I was out because I was expecting a baby then. But I know that they -- they would go -- they would be afraid in the mill. Like, I heard the ones that were in the mill working, you know -- They would tell them -- Maybe they would think of boss man's suspicion belonging to it. And they'd go around and question somebody else. And you know how some people will tell others. I do know that went on. There were a few people that would tell who belonged to the union and who didn't, which they weren't supposed to do, you know. You know, you were supposed to just keep it secret. But there were some of them that would tell. 00:21:00I remember that. And I don't know -- I can't remember -- I don't remember anything fierce happening, but I do remember that the ones that wanted it were dead -- they were dead set for it. And the ones that didn't want it were dead set against it. So, it was just a conflict. That's the way it was. But after it was settled, it wasn't long until they were back to normal. But it would have been the best thing in the world if they had got it across. After so many years. I wasn't for it. I couldn't see it. But now, since I've seen the, you know -- In recent years, what the union stands for is good. Sometimes it's misused. But I think what it stands for is really good.STONEY: Why do you think it didn't work then?
MCMICHAEL: Because they would have had to pay more wages. They would have had
to pay what you were worth. I guess that's the best -- simplest way I know how to put it. And about the most truthful way. They would have to pay you a decent wage. 00:22:00STONEY: Well, what kept the union from succeeding?
MCMICHAEL: I think it was -- I think it was the ones that owned it.. Now,
that's where I would think it come in. Because I think they had more -- they had more authority. You had frightened -- afraid they'd lose their job. A lot of them would have -- If it hadn't been for them knowing -- thinking that maybe they would not have a job, probably nine out of 10 of them would have joined. That's the thing. But they would -- They just knew that -- See, there weren't too much working going on then. And if you got out of a job, there was nothing else to go to. So, that was -- Like you said, it was either stay there or go down. So, that's just about the gist of what I remember about that.STONEY: Judy, you had one other question.
HELFAND: Oh yeah. You told me your husband, who wasn't your husband at the
time -- No. Your husband was working at the mill, right?MCMICHAEL: Mm-hmm.
HELFAND: What were his choices?
MCMICHAEL: He wasn't for it. He wasn't for the union.
00:23:00HELFAND: Could you say, "My husband wasn't for the union?"
MCMICHAEL: My husband was not for the union. And I think maybe one reason was
because he didn't know any more about the reality of a union. He didn't know what it would have meant to him. And another thing because he was still young, you see. And, you know, he leaned towards his father. And, of course, my family -- my father, and they leaned towards the older men. And a lot of that kept the younger men from expressing their opinion. From really knowing what it was about. And he knew, too, he was like a lot of others. He knew that if he lost his job, he'd had two little boys and a wife that he wouldn't have no way of keeping them up. And he didn't know what he would if he joined the union -- if he would lose his job. But he was strictly against it for that reason. But if he had known the ramifications of what it could have led to, and it could have gone through, he would have been for it. In later years, when he was expressing his opinion, he was always -- he would say that was the best. A 00:24:00union was the best thing in the world that could have happened. But he said a lot of times, they were -- people would misuse what they do and everything else. You know, nothing's perfect. But they'd take -- sometimes they'd take advantage of it. But he was strictly against it. But if he had just been single with no family, I don't know -- he might have been for the union then. But he had -- he was expecting another child. Already he had two. And so, he didn't have -- he didn't have much choice.HELFAND: Was it in their education at the time? Weren't people telling --
Weren't there people explaining to workers what the union was about?MCMICHAEL: It was so secretive, so you didn't have a chance to hear it
explained very often. You -- It was kept under cover, honey. In the mill, you couldn't talk it. You were afraid to talk it. You were afraid to discuss it because you were afraid you'd lose your job. They really didn't know what 00:25:00it was all about, I don't think. I don't really think that the common working man really knew the union -- the good it would have been for them. Of course, the oversee it. I'm sure that the personnel -- I'm sure that the owners knew what they were doing, you know. But if times had been better -- if they hadn't been during the Depression, maybe more people then would have acted different, you know. But, they -- just as I said, they didn't know -- there wasn't any place to go. There just wasn't any jobs to be found.STONEY: One of the interesting things to me is that while the south, with
textiles went in this direction of no union, the rest of the country was going in the other direction. With, you know, steel and automobiles and all of that. And one of the things we're doing in this film is to try to examine why.MCMICHAEL: Well, the only reason that I can get is because they would have to
00:26:00pay more wages. They had it like they wanted it. So to speak, we was bound down to it. And you know, the north has always made better living than people -- had better wages, better places to live -- Well, I don't know where the better place is or not. But I know along back then, they did. The things we'd hear, it would seem unreal to us, you know, about the people up north. What they had. That's why I told you the other day. You just didn't know what you'd miss not living in the south.STONEY: (laughter)
HELFAND: Well, since times were so difficult, could you just tell me a little
about -- Think about the character of those people who did go out on strike?MCMICHAEL: They were fine people. I can't say a thing.
HELFAND: (inaudible) is the wrong word. I mean, they were taking a risk.
MCMICHAEL: Oh, yes.
HELFAND: Can you talk about that?
MCMICHAEL: They were taking a risk of losing -- If their overseer could find out
00:27:00that they were for the union, if he wanted to, he could find some excuse to of got shut of them, he wouldn't have to say -- If they had just made a mistake maybe, he could have -- I think -- I don't that that happened. But that's the way I had it and the way I look at it now. Any little thing that come up, if they knew you belonged to the union, you were on a black list sort of speak. I forgot -- I liked to (inaudible). (laughter)HELFAND: Now, what about those people on the picket line? They made it public,
didn't they?MCMICHAEL: Not until they had to. You know when they did? It's when all
those others came down in those trucks you'd see going through. And that's when we found out exactly who were for the union. We knew a lot of them, but we didn't know a lot. We didn't know some of them were for the union.STONEY: Now, Judy, you see, this explains why you needed (inaudible).
HELFAND: Yeah. Could you tell me about the night that the people in the trucks came?
00:28:00MCMICHAEL: It was day.
HELFAND: OK. Tell me about the day and tell me about -- and use that phrase,
"people in the truck," so I know -- so, other people aside from me will know.MCMICHAEL: Well, I can remember the day very well because it was a real hot day.
And I was at my mother's house and we heard that -- we knew -- we had heard that they were on the way through East Newnan, you know. And people began together down around the church -- down kind of in the center of the village -- And everybody was hollering and carrying on. And when they came through, you knew it was just a big rabble rouse. Just people hollering. And I think the ones that belonged to the union probably must have thought that they were going to win. And the ones hollering were saying, "You're not going to win. We're going to win." So, I think it was just a toss-up between the two. But there wasn't any -- I don't remember any fights or anything like that. But there was a lot hard feelings.STONEY: It must have taken a lot of guts to do that.
00:29:00MCMICHAEL: Yeah. I'm sure it did. I'm sure it did.
STONEY: Particularly these young women.
MCMICHAEL: Yes, uh-huh.
STONEY: It's one of the reasons why we're looking to try and find some of
them. And find out just how they felt.MCMICHAEL: I wish that I knew. Have you been to Hogansville? Did any of them
recognize them? Well, I just can't recognize any of them. I really didn't know it, and I've met the Zimmermans in the last --