Lucille Thornburgh and Textile Workers Interview

 GEORGE STONEY: Right in the middle of the strike, Lucille, you wrote a letter to the local newspaper in Knoxville.

JUDITH HELFAND: It was before the strike.

GEORGE STONEY: It wasn't before the strike. This was in the middle of the strike.

HELFAND: Oh, I'm sorry.

GEORGE STONEY: Look, Judy, don't interrupt me.

HELFAND: I'm sorry.

GEORGE STONEY: You know, because your antagonism -- I mean, your hesitation and so forth affect us here. (break in video) Lucille, when -- after the strike started, you had the guts to write to the local paper in Knoxville. And we happened to have from the National Archives, a copy of that letter. I wonder if you could take a look at it and give us some idea of it. Why you wrote it and so forth.

LUCILLE THORNBURGH: All right. This is a rather lengthy letter, but I will give you what I consider the pertinent excerpts from it. It's to the Knoxville News. Dated September 1934. "Every person on strike at Cherokee Spinning Company is a patriotic American citizen doing his or her fighting best. The battle of the textile workers have waged for better wages and working conditions." You notice in there that I pointed out that every person working at Cherokee Spinning Company was a patriotic American. That might not be necessary in most cases, but we were called communists and all kinds of foreigners and aliens. And this, that. So, I had to tell them then that we were patriotic American citizens. And that we have no selfish motive in it. "We are striking against the industry as a whole for the benefit of our fellow 00:02:00workers and the generations to come who will work in the mills. We are 100 percent back of President Roosevelt and his program for national recovery." That is true. We practically worship President Roosevelt, and I think that was true all over the company. We just thought that he was the miracle worker at that time. "We are not asking for the impossible. Just decent living wages and conditions that are rightfully ours as citizens. We have tried time and time again to get these simple rights as American citizens who believe in American institutions and the flag. We have petitioned, and our petitions and supplications have been scorned by the capitalists. It is impossible to teach patriotism to a hungry man. And it is impossible to preach religion to a cold and hungry man. And as a final resort, we are using the only weapon working people have: the strike. The Southern cotton mills have become a sore spot to 00:03:00the nation. In this highly civilized country, do we have to have a group of working people known as exploited? Do the factories where the clothing for the nation is made have to be made in sweatshops? I say no. These things do not have to be, but they have never before been opposed and have run on to the corrupt situation that we have now. We are not on strike just because the other fellow is. We are out to eliminate sweatshops, starvation wages, and stretch out systems that have no place in the country. And we're willing to make all sacrifices in order to win a just cause. We want to see our country come out of the Depression, but we know that there must be a more equitable sharing of profits before we can have complete recovery. The textile workers realize this, 00:04:00and if strike they must, strike they will."

GEORGE STONEY: How old were you when you wrote?

THORNBURGH: I was about -- Let's see -- About 23 or 4 years old.

F1: When you wrote it, did you have any expectations that it would indeed appear in the paper?

THORNBURGH: The paper there had become a little more liberal. I don't know why, but they were getting so many letters that they had to publish some. I think that's why. Of course, as a result of our strike, you also have a list of our locked up -- our blacklisted workers there.

GEORGE STONEY: Absolutely.

CONNIE: So, you were blacklisted?

THORNBURGH: Oh, absolutely. I am still blacklisted.

CONNIE: Yeah. I feel fortunate indeed to be in your presence right now. You know why?

THORNBURGH: Because I'm a blacklisted textile worker?

CONNIE: (laughter) No, because I've seen a lot of footage on the general strike and have learned the history of that. And to just be with someone who 00:05:00was there during that time, and is still and alive and kicking and raising sand is -- I think we all are very privileged.

THORNBURGH: Thank you. I appreciate that.

CONNIE: Can I touch you?

THORNBURGH: Yeah. (laughter) You certainly can.

GEORGE STONEY: Well, [Jean?], it wasn't all -- This is a letter from a woman who wasn't on strike, but she describes this situation pretty vividly.

F2: She's writing to the president. She lives in Greenwood County. Written September the sixth. "Dear Mr. President, with regard to the present situation in the textile industry, my husband and I are textile operatives. In our town, the situation is entirely quiet, while in an adjourning town in our county, it is becoming quite serious. Machine guns have been placed atop the mill in Ninety Six, South Carolina. And in Honea Path, South Carolina, there were six people killed and more than a score injured this morning. We have a strong union organization in our town. We appreciate the right to organize and 00:06:00bargain for our rights and know that you are behind us 100%. It is not possible -- is it not possible and in your power to order all mills in this county closed until a settlement or compromise can be agreed upon? We do not want bloodshed, nor do we want a civil war. And as much as it is the right of a man who wants to work without being molested, it is the right of the union man to strike. I ask you if it isn't possible and right for you, the leader of our great nation, to halt the still operating industries and prevent further bloodshed until an agreement can be reached? The county as a whole are looking to you to take a hand in this serious crisis. The union leaders are not, I don't believe asking for too much. Trusting in you to lead us out of this and praying for you to be directed by the almighty god. And yours very respectfully, Ms. Dottie Henry. Greenwood, South Carolina."

GEORGE STONEY: That certainly gives you a different picture of a textile worker. A lint-head. Doesn't it?

SHEILIA: You know, it's almost like -- the feeling I had when she was reading that was almost like reverence.

GEORGE STONEY: Yes.

SHEILA: Because they expected so much.

THORNBURGH: I thought that is -- seems to be sort of the continuity of the letters here, including mine. Of how we were dependent on Roosevelt. You know, he was just a miracle worker that had come to save us.

GEORGE STONEY: Maybe that's one of the lessons that you people should try to find -- is that you shouldn't trust one leader. You've got to trust yourselves.

THORNBURGH: That is right.

JOE: It really goes beyond that. And that is what the government gives, the government can take away, too. And then, here were people who were turning on the government to give them the hours. Give them the good working conditions. Make sure there's no stretch out with the government. The goverment said we're going to take care of those things, but they didn't. So, before they 00:08:00even got it, they took it away. And here they were, appealing to him to help them. He couldn't do it. But those of us who lived in the Roosevelt days, we believed that he couldn't do any wrong.

ROY: Well, all these letters are expressing hope. I mean, they're expressing their pain. But they're letters of hope.

THORNBURGH: Absolutely.

ROY: I mean, they're letters of hope that the NRA and Roosevelt would succeed in writing these injustices.

THORNBURGH: Kind of described it there. It was faith we had in him.

ROY: Right.

THORNBURGH: You know, we thought Roosevelt --

ROY: Also, nobody would have written any letters to Hoover. I mean, all of a sudden, there's Roosevelt there who offers a light. Or a hand, you know. And gives all these people an outlet of their pain and their shame, even, and exploitation that's been forced upon them.

THORNBURGH: Our hopes for the rest of our lives was hinging on Roosevelt.

ROY: Right.

THORNBURGH: He was going to do everything for us. He believed it, and why wouldn't we? He was such a (inaudible).

M1: And, you know, you couldn't help but believe him --

THORNBURGH: That's right.

M1: -- when he says stuff like, "If I had to go to work in a factory, the first thing I would do is to join a union."

THORNBURGH: That's right.

M1: You know, that would show the people that he's on their side.

GEORGE STONEY: But he said that three or four years later.

M1: Really?

GEORGE STONEY: After he found out that there was a big group of people -- manufacturers against him. After he found out that, no matter what he did for them, they didn't back him. But the people did in '36. And he won by a landslide in '36. It was after that that he said that.

JOE: Right. And the textile barons or the owners are the ones who double crossed him.

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.

JOE: Because when they allegedly talked to him, and talked about the strike and talked about bringing it to an end -- talked about not discriminating against the people, he understood that he had assurances from them that's what they were going to do. And they didn't. That's why when he said the Blue Eagle was not working, that's why he began to push with Wagner for the Wagner Act, 00:10:00which was the one that made it into laws that you had the right to organize. You had a right to speech in the plant. You had a right to belong to a union. You had a right to bargain collectively. And that's what led to the National Labor Relations Act, which has been since distorted by a lot of other amendments. Today, it doesn't amount to the right to organize but it amounts to the right of the employer to keep you from organizing.

GEORGE STONEY: Roy has a letter that was written right in the middle of the strike. September the 13th. After Honea Path had happened. After a lot of things had happened. And it's interesting that this fellow is citing history in support of their cause.

ROY: This is a letter -- Like you said, 1934 to Franklin Roosevelt. "Dear Sir, it is to you that we now appeal our last vestiges of hope lie in our whole-hearted confidence and impartial leadership. The textile strike was 00:11:00inevitable, since all attempts to bargain collectively and make agreements with our employers have failed. All code provisions have been violated, particularly section 7A. Overseers of plant number six of the Cannon Mill with an arrogance almost unaccountable walk through our praying pickets armed with guns underneath the American flag, which was held aloft about two of our men without removing their hats. In respect to the stars and stripes of Old Glory, the course pursued by our governor in calling out troops to which was reputed to be a disorderly section has met with wholesale disapproval, as there's only been two fistfights in this strike zone. Is it fair that we should see our children half naked and our hearts torn out by their anguish cries for milk and food? That our mother should be insulted and beaten on the picket line by hired thugs? The workers were in destitute circumstance before the strike and the county 00:12:00welfare officers have not even investigated our appeals for relief. And our jobs are threatened if we do not return to work. Should these sons and daughters of those old monsters who so nobly defended our cause and who whipped Cornwallis at King Mountains be forced through starvation to return to the (inaudible) meals and humble submission? Shall we resort to the last but not least measures? At present, there is an alternative. Fight or starve. Your intervention can advert this great catastrophe. It is in desperation that I appeal to you to stop this wholesale transgression on the rights of labor at the hands of greedy prophets snatching exploiters of labor. Sincerely yours, Edgar [Widenhouse?]."

GEORGE STONEY: It's interesting that he's appealing to a whole revolution by tradition that we've been rid by. And, in a way, he was hoping that by exercising that same spirit, he could win this.

SHEILA: Or by reminding someone of that spirit.

GEORGE STONEY: That's right, yeah. OK. Now, after the strike -- and we know that it was called off by Gorman, who was vice president of the union and in charge of the strike. At the assurance of Roosevelt that there would be no retribution -- that people wouldn't be blacklisted. So, Joe, would you take a look at this document? All of these coming from the National Archives.

JOE: Well, this was what followed after the settlement of the strike. The National Recovery of Administration fixed up these forms that were complaints of violation of the code of fair competition for the textile industry. And this was sent in October of the fourth of 1934, which is one year later if you will remember. This is the Gibson Mill at Cannon Plant. It was in Concord, North 00:14:00Carolina in which this man by the name of Linker says I was a member of the general textile strike. And when the strike was over, I went back to my job to go to work and I was informed that I was not needed. I've tried to get work at several places -- to get work -- and when they found out where I worked prior to the strike, I was refused employment. I worked five years regularly at the Gibson Mill and I did my work. And I left my work only because of the recent strike. It was, again, signed by Linder. And it's -- down at the bottom, it asks whether they can use his name. And, of course, he said yes. And those of us who were around at that time, we got hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of these signed. And we sent them in to the board to see whether or not we could get something done. That was the (inaudible) board that was set up by 00:15:00Roosevelt. It was supposed to have taken care of the situation. I forget now the names of the people who were involved in it, but one of them was out of New York. And was one another big person in terms of the general public. I've got some notes here that will remind me of it maybe, then I can think of it later. But they did very little. What was happening was people were not being put back to work. They were blacklisted just like you said you were blacklisted. If they went to work to try to go to another mill to find out if they could get a job, they were told that they couldn't get a job there because they would check from the place that they had last worked at. They had been out on the strike and that was enough. When it came to the board, and we went to the hearings, they said, "Oh no. We did not discriminate against them because they were on the strike. What we found was happening was that if we hired anybody or we heard if anybody was hired, they only worked with us 00:16:00temporarily because if the other plant called them, they'd go right back to work because that's where they came from." They used that as the excuse for not hiring them. If your family was involved in the strike, you were on the blacklist. If your father was involved, people who were married and lived by themselves -- participated in the strike -- If the father didn't participate in it, the father got fired. In other words, what was happening was that some of the people who acted as strike breakers during the strike also got fired because some of their kin people was on the strike. This went on for a long period of time. Month after month after month. Until they finally passed the National Labor Relations Act. And that's part of the lie that has been told about the UTW that I keep trying to say that it didn't happen that way. And 00:17:00that was that after the strike was over, they disappeared. They didn't disappear. What they did -- they spent every dime they could. Food, clothing. Trying to put people in houses where they could, where they were evicted. Time after time, we had to find places for them to live. Where they were thrown out. And they were throwing them out by the handfuls. They could care less. There were all kinds of protests about them being evicted. Roosevelt wrote to governors of the different states. Trying to get them to keep the textile owners from throwing them out on the street. Some of them would get them to delay one or two to three days. And when the heat was off, we used to say then they'd throw them right out on the street. But for months and months and months, we were fixing these up. There are thousands of them that were sent in. What organizes we could keep on the payroll, we were getting them signed up. The volunteers were getting them signed up. Those that weren't on the payroll were getting them signed up. Those who were officers in the local union were 00:18:00getting them signed. They did very, very little good. That's what persuaded Roosevelt finally. The what was happening because they were trying to pose with him that they were taking him back as far -- as fast as they could take him. That the strike had disrupted their production. It would take a while until they got it fixed. Every delay and excuse that you could believe. And it's real interesting that some of the people who worked for the National Recovery Administration, who were sympathetic, would make reports that under the section seven, they were supposed to bargain selectively. They would said plain out that they would not bargain -- the owners would not bargain collectively. I'll make you a bet when they report it on MacMillan out of your end of the country -- when they reported on Ellis Arnold out here or the bib people -- whoever it was in authority that they would say that they took the position that 00:19:00didn't have to bargain with the union. And it was one of those things that, at that time, lawyers were advising their clients that they didn't have to bargain. When the National Labor Relations Act was put into effect, they advised their clients that they wouldn't have to bargain. As a matter of fact, there were 57. I used to call them the "Heinz 57," who put a big ad in the New York Times saying that the law was unconstitutional -- the National Labor Relations Act. And that's when it was that the Supreme Court surprised them by saying that because of interstate conduct, it was constitutional. And that widened their basis of that. But thousands and thousands of people were blacklisted despite everything the union could do. Churches were helping them. All kind of welfare people were helping them. Still didn't mean a thing because the Textile Manufacturers Association had made up their minds that those who were in the strike -- that was the end of it. They would be blacklisted.

GEORGE STONEY: Joe, we have been able to trace -- we have several thousand names 00:20:00from this same archives of the blacklisted people. We've been able to trace some of them. And it's very interesting to see that when you blacklisted people, it meant they had to leave not only the mill house, they had to leave the mill community because there was no other place to live. So, you talk about "like a family." That mill village was their family. And when they got evicted, they lost their family. And we have letters -- individual letters, as well. Angie, here's a letter from a woman who was writing after the strike.

ANGIE: This letter's dated October 29th, 1934 for the National Labor Relations Board in Washington, D.C. "Dear Sir, as I was asked to write you this letter, I am stating my case. I was discharged from Field Manufacturing Company on the sixth month, sixteenth day of 1934 as a result of the boss watching me go to a 00:21:00union meeting on Thursday nights. And I have, in four years and ten months service, at the mill and they will not talk about putting me back to work. And I am widow with four children. One has tuberculosis and I get $3.75 and $4.50 a week release to feed five on. And I haven't even had any more I have to get -- I have to get it somewhere. Be glad if you would please investigate. Respectfully yours, Mrs. May Phillips. Columbus, Georgia."

GEORGE STONEY: Now, that's a small example of a huge -- a huge tragedy.

JOE: That's what you call compassion.

GEORGE STONEY: Sheila, here's from the Bibb Manufacturing Company. The response.

SHEILA: This is written October 19th, 1934 to Mr. Jan Harrison. From Bibb Manufacturing Company. It says, "Dear sir, you have voluntarily quit your job with this company. You are, therefore, occupying one of our houses at sufferance. We desire immediate possession at this house, so that one of the workers in the mill may move into it. Unless you remove yourself and your property from this house promptly, we will apply to the courts to dispossess you." This was sent from -- GEORGE STONEY: What's the date on it?

SHEILA: It's October 19th, 1934.

GEORGE STONEY: So, these -- this is the formal action.

SHEILA: Yes.

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.

SHEILA: It says, "Please advise just what to do. We followed Mr. Gorman's 00:23:00instructions by coming out, but the mill owners have not done what Mr. Roosevelt has asked. Please let me hear it once." And it's written by Jan Harrison. He sent this to the president to ask what to do about it.

GEORGE STONEY: And here's -- Connie, here's a letter from Kannapolis.

CONNIE: November 1st, 1934.

GEORGE STONEY: After the strike.

CONNIE: After the strike. Complaint filed October 8th, 1934. Local 2265. "Mr. Francis J. Gorman, I am writing you in regard to local 2265. We have not had anybody here yet to try and do anything for us. There are still a number that have not gotten back to work. Them that have gone back, the company's making it so hard for them, they can't hardly stand it. Our local have gone just as far as they can. We came out in good faith and are still out, but there 00:24:00has not been anything done about it. So, it looks like now our local is gone. And it don't seem there is any use to try now, as they have lost faith in the union. We have had so many promises and nothing done. I, myself, am almost ready to give up unless there is some action given. I am going to get out myself. What is wrong? Have the whole work sold out? What is the matter? We, as a poor hungry people, cannot live without something to eat and something to wear and to keep us warm. How do you people in Washington think we can go on and living on air and promises? What we need is help. And if you cannot get that for us, then say so and we will not depend on promises any longer. The whole thing is in a mess. Cannon Mills Company have barred the union workers out, and it looks like Cannon Mills are running the whole thing. We want to know if they're running the whole country. It looks like it. Mr. Gorman, 00:25:00there are three families here in Kannapolis, North Carolina that have had moving orders. They are W.H. [Camalis?], Arthur Fortner, and J.A. Carlisle, all of Kannapolis, North Carolina. Please do something about it. If there is anything to what people say in Washington, do something that we may be able to still have faith in our government. G.W. McElroy, secretary."

GEORGE STONEY: So, that's the trajectory of the thirty-fourth strike. And now, I'm just wondering if you would talk about the -- how you can handle productively what was essentially a failure, a defeat? This might sound funny coming from a southerner because we're supposed to be love lost causes. We certainly celebrated the Confederacy for long enough, but this was a failure. But a courageous failure. And is there some way that -- We know that the 00:26:00manufacturers are using it against you. Is there some way that we can interpret it so that it means something else? Or should it -- should we just forget it?

JOE: I think it serves to give people hope.

GEORGE STONEY: OK.

M1: And it also, it might end an example to where if the companies don't want this kind of action brought against them again, you know, to straighten up a little bit.

M2: (inaudible) work for it.

THORNBURGH: And I think -- (inaudible) we have said before -- That organizing effort in 1934 was not wasted. We lost to strike, but the organizing effort was not wasted because even the people who were blacklisted in my local there, they went on to other places. And some of them worked in organizers and setting up unions and all of that. And even people who didn't belong to the union around 00:27:00there who knew about it. We had spread the word.

ROY: You didn't lose the strike or you were tricked basically into going back to work.

THORNBURGH: Yeah, right. Yeah.

ROY: You were basically tricked in that nothing -- if you went back to work, the problems would be worked on. Nobody would be blacklisted or singled out for retribution of any kind. I mean, you were tricked. I mean, it was not a loss. It was a trick. And if anything is learned from it, it's learned let's not be tricked.

THORNBURGH: (laughter)

ROY: It's not let us be tricked anymore when we start something as workers or anything. And we're on that path. Let's stay on that path until we know we've won. And I know it's hard -- It's easy to sit here in 1991, 1992 -- soon to be 1992. And look back. I'm not starving, you know. Which I can sympathize with some of these people to the retribution because I, myself, have 00:28:00been in situation where I've been terminated from my job because of my union activity. I'm not in a point where I'm starving by any means. I've been an organizer -- organizing campaigns for about four years now off and on. And one of them involved -- The last one involved the Cannon Mills, which is the company I work for -- Fieldcrest-Cannon. I work for Fieldcrest. And when I came back from that organizing effort, I was singled out for more work. Follow you around. You know what I'm saying. You've been there. And since I have been fired, my wife is being followed around. She works in a mill and they watch her every step she makes. Because they're afraid she's going to do -- say something to somebody to get people to sit down or whatever. And it's -- you know, even -- I'm sitting here listening to these letters and seeing you who was blacklisted and I empathize with you. You know, because basically, 00:29:00I'm not in as severe of a situation as you was, but it's the same situation.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, this legacy --