GEORGE STONEY: Stop.
(break in audio)
FOOTS WEAVER: The injunction down there. This, this gang. The gang was gettingtoo big for them. And we was getting more of them in. More and more and more in the union, every day. And they had to do something. And they filed the (inaudible) injunction there, you know. To let those on the committee -- Lucille was on it. Jimmy Monroe was on it. Hell, [Belt Jones?] was -- not Belt, but um, Austin Jones was on it.
LUCILLE THORNBURGH: Yeah.
WEAVER: A McMahan was on it, there. McMahan, him and Jessie come back andscabbed on us.
WEAVER: They stayed out about a week.
THORNBURGH: And Jimmy Monroe was there.
WEAVER: Jimmy Monroe was good.
THORNBURGH: Jimmy Monroe was good. He was very good.
F1: Let me ask Homer about this. Homer, does the --
(break in video)
JAMIE STONEY: OK.
GEORGE STONEY: Rolling.
HELFAND: Were ready? OK, Homer, what, in that picture, what does it remindyou of? 00:01:00
HOMER LOGSDON: Well, it reminds me of, of about the time -- if I could rememberright, its about the time we put the, the chief of police come down and told us to move on. If I, if I could remember about right. Uh, as I say, its been so long. But we had to move over on this side. There was a bank, here. And we just milled around in the street, as far as I remember. Uh, but uh --
F1: Was the strike -- do you think it was a festive atmosphere, or where peoplereally frightened because they were already near starvation?
LOGSDON: I think, uh, I think... The management and the police was more excitedthan we were. Because we didnt intend to harm anyone, I dont think. I dont think that was in our mind. Uh, we just didnt want -- I guess, at that time, we just didnt want somebody else going in there, taking our job. 00:02:00Uh, because if we felt like someone -- which they did, come in and take your job. Uh, we might have had some fight. But uh, if the tempers on the picket line -- I dont know, somebody mightve hollered something, but I dont remember exactly.
GEORGE STONEY: Lu-- Lucille. When this picture came out of the papers, what didpeople say to you?
THORNBURGH: Oh, uh --
GEORGE STONEY: Just say, when that picture came out.
THORNBURGH: When that picture came out, uh, they -- we had a, we had a lot ofcriticism. That was one of the things that started the criticism from the churches, and from other people. And wanting to know, Why dont you go back? Why are you quitting your job? And uh, Your family needs the money. And all that kind of stuff. Yeah, there was -- there was a lot of talk about that picture.
F1: Did you know you had been blacklisted?
THORNBURGH: Uh, not at that time. Not then, we didnt. Because see, the mill00:03:00was completely closed down. Do you remember that, [Foots?]? It was completely closed.
WEAVER: Yeah, we didnt get a black -- we didnt get black list back fromthem --
THORNBURGH: After, after the --
WEAVER: The nationwide strike.
THORNBURGH: -- after the nationwide strike.
WEAVER: Yeah, was when we got the black list.
THORNBURGH: Yeah, was when we got the black list. Because the mill didntopen, and I think one of the reasons that it didnt -- well, all of the people were out. Uh, we were all out, so they didnt have anybody to operate with. But you must remember, as uh, uneducated as we were, so far as union was concerned, management was the same way. And they were afraid of us, like Foot said. They were afraid of us. You know, they didnt know what we were going to do with that strong backing.
F1: What did you think of these pictures, when they called you the BeautifulMs. Thornburgh, the debutante. Did you feel like that was um, was um, a compliment, or belittling you as a leader of the strike?
THORNBURGH: I think it might -- they might have put it in there because I wascertainly no beautiful, uh, girl. Was maybe to discourage me. If it was, it 00:04:00didnt work.
F1: In what way would it discourage you?
THORNBURGH: Uh, well, maybe uh, maybe they thought that I was stupid enough tothink that I was a pretty girl and I shouldnt be on a picket line, I should be, uh, somewhere else. Anywhere else.
F1: Do you think any of the strikers or the other leaders of the local felt thatway toward you?
THORNBURGH: Uh, no. They didnt pay that much attention to it, no. Theydidnt care. That came out of a Philadelphia paper, I think.
F1: And heres another picture of Lucille.
WEAVER: That um, that picture there is, uh, something more like her, back then.Oh, I can see her through the glass doors there. They have a soldered-on platform. Theres one step going into her office there. And the first time I seen her, I went in there I was doffing. My aunt was working there on the reels. On the winders, they call them winders. They come, reels. But my aunt was working there. My mothers sister. Lucille knew her, and uh, the first 00:05:00time I walked in there, I told her, I says, Can I leave my lunch in here? (inaudible) says, Theyre eating it up. I aint gotten nothing to eat for lunch.
THORNBURGH: (laughs) We stole each others lunch.
WEAVER: Yeah, well, they was one guy down there, I caught, and I collared him.He (inaudible) my lunch, and he already got the meat out of it, and I always -- my aunt was packing my lunch, and I got a meat sandwich. I got a jelly sandwich. I got one with butter in between it, and a little piece of cake for my lunch. And it were wrapped up in newspaper. And they was breaking in that there, tearing that string open. They just ruining my lunch. Taking that meat out of there. And that made me mad! And I caught, I caught him at it. And it was too bad.
F1: Do you remember Foots as being a -- having a little bit of a temper andbeing a firebrand? What did he sound like on the picket line?
THORNBURGH: Uh, he sound like he yell louder than anybody else, you know. Whenyou holler, Dont scab, dont scab, dont go back in, stand by the 00:06:00union. And all that stuff. He was a little louder than the others.
GEORGE STONEY: Could you tell us about your singing on the picket line?
THORNBURGH: Oh, yeah. We sang on the picket line. Um, we got our songs, too.You, we was talking about Miles Horton in Highlander a while ago. Miles gave us the songs. He gave us the songs that we had. That, uh, Solidary Forever, I think, was one of the main ones.
WEAVER: Well, um, Thou Shall Not Be Moved, is the none I remember.
THORNBURGH: Thats good, yeah. Yeah, We Shall Not Be Moved. We usedthat one.
WEAVER: That, that, that was an -- that was an old, uh, song, there, out of asongbook. Christian songbook, there. So, Thou Shall Not Be Moved. That, that, that comes out of the Bible, too. Comes out of Psalms. I, I, I read the Bible a lot of the time.
F1: Do you think that the picket line and the strike actually was a part of theeducation of the people about the union? Do you think this was a chance for people to really understand the union and to know what the union was for? 00:07:00
THORNBURGH: Yes. Uh, it was a good time for that. Uh, but when -- when peoplewere as poor as we were, and with nothing to eat and not -- were not knowing where the rent is coming from, it was pretty hard to teach them any-- anything except just plain economics. How are you going to get your next meal? But I do, I do think we all got a lot of education out of it. Didnt you, Foots?
WEAVER: Yeah, well, I -- its educated me a lot. Darn right.
THORNBURGH: Me, too.
F1: Well, how did you feel when you lost your union?
WEAVER: I dont, (inaudible) I had to learn how to get out there and sweat andmake it with the sweat of my brow. And I, I did it, too. If somebody asked me, Could I do something? I, I could do it.
F1: Well, when you --
WEAVER: I, I didnt turn down that.
F1: -- when you worked so hard to get your union, and you had it in infancy to100%, you go out on strike because the leadership, Gorman said, We really need to do this, even though you felt like it was bad timing, how did it make you feel when you lost your union? 00:08:00
WEAVER: What, what mde me feel so good, getting a job. Without a cotton mill.Oscar [Dunne?], a contractor, in Knoxville he helped the union together. Carpenters local.
(break in video)00:09:00
WEAVER: A week, $2.40 a day. Thats all you could make. Well, they -- but(inaudible) were making over there, was checks. And it didnt matter -- it didnt matter what, what you took off of your loans, because you could take a piece of it and line a raincoat with it.
F1: Well, how do you -- what do you think is the lesson? How would you like forthis strike to be looked at by young people who are just hearing about it?
WEAVER: Well, theyve got to -- theyve got to, a lot, a lot are (inaudible)union, now, than they had back then. Theyve got benefits and uh, go in the union. Ill say, go in the union! Young men should be in the union. Get 00:10:00them benefits. He got a second pension there coming, besides social security stuff. Still (inaudible) supposed to be the everything that we thought, thought it would be. A lot of people misled there. Its just to help make the -- and, uh --
F1: Did you think that the strike was a disaster?
WEAVER: Well, the, the nationwide strike didnt help any. Lets say itdidnt help any. What do you think about it, Lucille?
THORNBURGH: Uh, I think the, the -- a sad thing about all of it was -- and I, ofcourse, at, I keep going over this, how uneducated we were. But I didnt realize it until later, when I started really talking to organizers and working in the labor movement myself, how very important it was to save your union. Uh, I remember people like, uh, Franz Daniels and Miles Horton, and people like that. When it gets right down to a real showdown, compromise if you have to in 00:11:00order to save your union. Well, if we couldve saved that union -- we, we couldnt. There was no way we could save it. But if, if we had it to do over, you know, and what I would tell people now, would be to have your people better educated and knowing what they were doing, before they would come out on strike. I think, now, that we might have even avoided that strike and saved our union for another day. But the way it was, we lost everything. I think it was a very untimely strike. And I think it left the people, uh, well, a lot of them -- and Im sure you, uh, and Homer both would agree with me on this. I think it left a lot of the people completely disillusioned, because they could say -- and they did! Say, around Knoxville, Well, look what happened to Cherokee. They didnt win down there, and they had everybody organized. They, they 00:12:00didnt win. So it was, it -- we, we were a bad influence on other mill workers in Knoxville. It was really a sad situation.
GEORGE STONEY: Were you proud of what you did?
THORNBURGH: Yes. Id like to do it all over again, but Id do it a little differently.
GEORGE STONEY: Could you say how proud you were? Repeat -- say, I was proudof what I did, but.
THORNBURGH: I was proud of what I did, but I would do it a little bitdifferently this time.
F1: Well, let me ask you something. Ive, Ive seen, as you know, in the --working with the union, Ive seen a lot of people go through organizing campaigns and strikes where theyve lost. But theres something that they gain in the process of standing up to a company, or to injustice. Do you think that that took place in this strike? Did you see some things that you gained from it? Did it change you, Homer? 00:13:00
LOGSDON: Well, when I think back, it changed me a lot of ways. To use my [old?]mind, and to do uh -- Ive always done what I said I would do. Ive, I was taught that in my life. Uh, to always do -- if you make an oath, you do it. But uh, I think I would use my old mind but, to -- in our strike, I think our biggest trouble, we didnt know really what was going on.
THORNBURGH: Thats right.
LOGSDON: Uh, because its just like going to school. Youve got to beeducated. And we werent. Because we didnt know much about strikes, we didnt know much about, uh, staying together. Pulling together. And uh, I think youve got to be taught to do that. But --
F1: But you did it. Yall did it.
LOGSDON: Oh! And we have that trouble today, though! I know Ive tried to00:14:00(laughs) get our bus drivers together. When I was in the school system. But its impossible because they dont -- you cant get them together.
F1: Why did you --
LOGSDON: Thats what youve got to do.
F1: If you, if you -- if there are a lot of young people today, and times are ashard, in some ways, as they were back then, in terms of people being scared theyre going to lose their jobs because the plantll close down and move overseas. And theyre fighting to maintain their unions, theyre fighting for wages, theyre fighting for respect on the job. From your experience in this strike, what could you say to those young people who are in the middle of fighting to save a pension, or fighting in the coal mines to make sure that pensions arent cut out from under coal miners? What does this strike experience have to say to them?
LOGSDON: Well, what I really think, to see the young people today, they wont-- they would come and take your job. If I was to go out on a strike today, to 00:15:00what I could see, through life, Im a union man. And this guy over here is out of work, and, and half the time they dont respect their parents. So theyre not going to respect the union. And theyre not going to pay any attention to you walking that picket line. Theyll just walk right on by you.
GEORGE STONEY: Thats --
F1: Do you think that in your experience, the, the fact that you had a family inthe plant and everybody stuck together, is that something that you think would help, if young people understood that?
LOGSDON: Thats, that would be the other way, is I say they would have to beeducated. To, to know what the union was really all about. Uh, because theres so many people that, in the South, that dont know. But now theres several places in Knoxville that, that are union. But now its hard 00:16:00for them to keep the guys together.
GEORGE STONEY: What would you say about that, Lucille?
THORNBURGH: Uh, I think uh, what, what we could uh, tell those, tell the youngerpeople about that would be that, well, look at us. Back there, under -- excuse me, (coughs).
GEORGE STONEY: Lets start again.
THORNBURGH: OK. See, whatd I say.
GEORGE STONEY: Uh, your, your -- ask your question.
F1: If you can just picture with me, and you know them just as well as I do,these places where the local is under fire, and these kids are going to lose their local, and they havent been tested like yall were tested in forming the local, but theyre fighting to save the pension for the pensioners. Theyre fighting to save their union. Theyre fighting to save their plant, and theyre scared to death that theyre not even going to be afford to -- be afford to keep their home. What could you say to young people today, from your experience? What can they learn from your strike? 00:17:00
THORNBURGH: Well, I think they could, um, I think they could learn that there ismore solidarity -- we did-- we didnt expect, when we came out on strike, we didnt expect everybody to come out with us. But there is more solidarity among workers, even now, I think, than, than they, than the people realize that there is. And you talk to them, I would tell them that had we saved our union -- I would certainly tell them that. I would certainly tell them to save your union, whatever else you do. Uh, but now, they have so many places to go, so many things that, uh, you know. Back when, when we were on strike, there was no social security. We didnt have a labor board that was worth anything. They finally had one. We didnt have all those places to go. And I still go back to that educating the membership. You just have to do that. And prove to them that in unity, theres strength.
GEORGE STONEY: Now, Lucille --00:18:00
THORNBURGH: One could do that.
GEORGE STONEY: We could ask her about the pamphlet, the, the --
F1: I was going to ask Fots that question. Don't we want to get his answer?
GEORGE STONEY: Sure, OK, then.
F1: Foots, what would you say to some of these young people today who are losingheart, and scared to strike, and scared of uh, uncertain times, about keeping their job? What have you learned, or what did you learn, your whole time in the textile mill?
WEAVER: Well, I would tell them to be truthful. The main thing is to betruthful. About the whole situation. They catch you in a lie, you cant lie out of a lie. You just tell them the truth, and you can always (inaudible) the truth. You got the truth, there. I tell them, its a hard job out there, on the strike. But you started it, dont quit. Stay right in there and keep fighting. You can win if you keep fighting, but it takes time. Now, Ive 00:19:00worked around the union from Brookside 21, 1921. I had it going there fine. I seen it happen down there. It was done away with down there. It was certain amount of people that didnt -- didnt like us. But we couldve made them like us if wed have won down there. Wed got them on our side!
F1: What did the --
WEAVER: If you ever win --
F1: What did the union do for you as a young worker?
WEAVER: As a young worker, had made a believer out of me to sell my labor at thehighest price I could. If I couldnt sell my labor at a higher price, the union wouldnt be no good to me. Thats what a unions all about, is to sell your labor there.
F1: Could you --
WEAVER: Get all you can out of it.
F1: Did you feel like you could stand taller when you had a union?00:20:00
WEAVER: Yes, I could stand and fight and fight and fight. If I had threepersons to stay with me. I would have a team there. Were the four horsemans.
F1: And what did you learn about the, the fact that you were able to organizethese workers?
WEAVER: Well --
F1: Did that surprise? What would you say to young people when they say, Oh,we cant get these people to organize a union. Theyre not interested in a union.
WEAVER: You get out there and tell them that you want a union. Tell them whatthe unions all about. Id try to educate the kid before he went out into the field to talk to him. Like boot camp in the army. You want to make him a little bit rougher, and you want to get some friends working. Now, you want friendship. You dont want an enemy. You want friendship there. When you go to talk to them, try to make a friend there out of them. You make a friend out of them, then you got a friend to rest of your life. If you get out there in the union and take them in the union, if you can, if you belong to the union, 00:21:00take them in the union. Get them in there and get them a card. I was proud of my card. I was proud of it. It made a -- it made me feel good, to say, Im a union man. That was 1945, I was getting old. Nineteen forty five, after the war. And they come to me, out there in my neighborhood said I was making a fool out of the labor (inaudible), youre paying them too much. But I was paying union wages. A dollar an hour per labor.
F1: Did people look down on people who worked in the textile mill?
WEAVER: Yes, we was looked down on, in a certain way. It was the cheapestpaying job there was. And it... Got farmers in there. As he said, awhile ago. Farmers kids. Yes, they were on it. But what would -- what were they coming across over here, when we first started this country? They was all 00:22:00farmers back then, or game men that didnt have anything to eat, so what? We didnt bring anything into this world, but we could make a better place for our kids, if we just work at it.
F1: As a textile worker, when, when you felt like people looked at you as thelowest paid people that were working in the factories --
WEAVER: Yes, we was.
F1: -- when you went on that strike, do you feel like it made people feel likethey had shown the community something --
WEAVER: Yeah, it did.
F1: -- about textile workers?
WEAVER: We had just a little bit of pride, there, on us. Weve a bit of apride up there. But, we had -- we had better, better (inaudible).
GEORGE STONEY: (inaudible) OK, Lucille, could I ask Lucille this question?
F1: Lucille. I know that people call textile workers hands. They call --
THORNBURGH: No, they called us lint-heads. Lint-heads. And you00:23:00know where we got that name? When I would come out of the mill, my hair was completely covered in lint. And thats where we got that name, lint head. We went from lint-head to cotton mill hands, and then from cotton mill hands we got us a nice title. Textile workers.
F1: And what do you think -- did the strike change peoples feelings aboutthemselves and the communitys respect for textile workers?
THORNBURGH: Uh, I think it did, in, in some areas. I think the real knowing andthinking people, uh, saw in us that, well, they have a determination uh, to do better. They dont want to be cotton mill workers on these low wages forever. And I, I, I think we gained a certain amount of respect from it.
F1: Do you think, on the, on the issues -- they were the national issues, whichwere mainly about the NRA codes. But your local issues, the issues that made 00:24:00people unhappy in the plant, like your ventilation. Water fountains.
THORNBURGH: Working conditions.
F1: What were the working conditions that people were unhappy about? What didthe -- what made them so unhappy that they would come out on this strike?
THORNBURGH: Uh, well, one thing, of course, was the wages. Uh, when you standon your feet like I did, 10 hours, five nights a week, and you get $8.40 for it, uh, youre mad, first, about the wages. And of course, we all -- everybody knows that 10 hours is too long to work. Particularly when youre standing right there in front of a machine. That that -- and then, the working conditions. You remember how big that spinning and winding room was? You know it was all together, there. We had one little restroom with one toilet seat in it. There was one water fountain that was stopped up more times than it was working. And it was working conditions like that. And it was so hot -- I went to work at five oclock in the afternoon, to work on that night shift. And in 00:25:00the summer, that -- it was so hot in there. And the mill didnt -- you didnt really, on any night during the summer, get cool until midnight. And you couldnt open a window because it would blow the cotton into your machine. And it was, it was just suffocating. And we had a lot of people that did faint there. I guess you had those in the weave shop, too. It was so hot in there.
F1: Do you think this is something that motivated people to walk out with youand to form a union?
THORNBURGH: Oh, definitely. Working at -- working under the, the workingconditions that we did, and for the low wages that we did.
F1: People were just fed up.
THORNBURGH: They were just fed up with it. Thats right.
F1: Well, you know, when I hear you talk about this, I am just amazed that you,number one, were able to get 100% union. Number two, you were able to build your strike like you are. Like you did. And its hard for me to look at it as a disaster. I mean, what would you say to young people about standing up against conditions in the mill where they are in danger of their lives? 00:26:00
THORNBURGH: Oh, I would definitely, uh, tell them to, to do it. Uh, even if thestrike was a, a, a disaster. We proved something to ourselves. That, that you know, that we, we, we could come out. And we felt pretty proud of ourselves when we shut that mill down, you know. Now, look at us. You rich peopled been calling us lint heads. Were powerful enough to shut your mill down. You know, yeah! Wes proud of it.
F1: Did you feel that way, Homer?
LOGSDON: Well, I guess I have a different outlook, maybe than --
THORNBURGH: Yous too young, any --
LOGSDON: -- they did. But uh, um --
F1: Did you feel proud that yall had shut the mill down to --
LOGSDON: I feel proud that, that I, Ive always stood tall. Tried to standtall. Uh, whatever I do. And uh, when we went out, I had an obligation to the unio, and I done that. And uh, as far as -- I dont remember. I remember 00:27:00back when, maybe when I was a, a filling boy, back when they were cutting 10%, 10%, that kind of stuff, that I, I worked 13 hours a night for $6.25. But I was glad to get to $6.25, because I had to eat! But then when they come along and cut the night shift off, then, when I went back, the working conditions, to me, were better. Because I was making $25, $30 a week. And of course, that was big money. And so I say, I know what Lucilles talking about in the spinning room. [Wasnt?] much difference in the weave room. Her working conditions was bad. They stood right there in front of that machine. And we had to go from here to there, running the set of looms. And uh, you know, we didnt 00:28:00stand still. And uh, but uh, if I was going to talk, to go back into union, Id still do what Id said Id do, regardless! Uh, if I lost my job, which I did, I didnt know that I was on the blacklist. But, and then I didnt know it until the other day! But uh, I went back in the Cherokee, and they treated me -- this doesnt ever happen -- of course, I done my work. I run my job. And uh, the bosses never said, as long as I was on that job. Maybe I wouldnt see a boss all night. All eight hours. But --
F1: Let me ask you -- now, if you will, look at that, uh, leaflet, and Lucille,you went to the convention where the national union told you about the strike. Was that drawn up by the national union?
THORNBURGH: Yes, uh-huh.
F1: Do you remember this leaflet here, Foots? Do you remember this leaflet that00:29:00yall passed out?
WEAVER: Yes, I got ahold 500 of them, to (inaudible). Put, put 500 of them out.Im very well acquainted with that poster, there. Its a good poster. And it means a lot to me.
THORNBURGH: We, we put them in, we put them uh, in, if you remember, Foots, weput them in doors where there was any union worker there, not just to let the whole community know that theres a strike on. We, we had a --
WEAVER: Get them on the door, anyplace. It didnt matter. Stick them in themailbox. It didnt matter.
F1: Were you scared at all? Because people were dying in other communities from --
WEAVER: No, I wasnt -- I wasnt, uh, I wasnt afraid of a [wildcat?] --