Lucille Thornburgh Interview 1

 (beep)

LUCILLE THORNBURGH: I don't remember a family parade. I remember those signs going up ---

M1: (inaudible) --- a lot to say in my cave.

CREW: Rolling.

GEORGE STONEY: OK. NRA. (inaudible)

THORNBURGH: When the NRA came in with its Blue Eagle, I don't remember us having a big parade. But I know everybody, everywhere where could get hold of a Blue Eagle, one of those posters that had the big Blue Eagle on it, why we'd cut that out and put it in our windows at home. You know, we thought that NRA was a great thing, which it was.

GEORGE STONEY: Right, OK. Now one of the things, and how long it took you to realize that.

THORNBURGH: We didn't realize, or I didn't, and I'm certain the other workers at Cherokee didn't, what a difference there was in our lifestyle and in the lifestyle of the people who owned the mill. They lived in what at that 00:01:00time was Sequoia Hills, which still is a rich neighborhood. But they lived there and we lived over in the Lonsdale/Beaumont area and we didn't, many of us at that time didn't have hot and cold water in the houses. But we didn't, I think for one thing, we didn't know who the owners were. We would know who the president of the mill was because he'd walk through two or three times a year. But we didn't know who the board was, or this interlocking ownership that I found out about later. Of course, then I found, when I found out later, I found out who it was we should have been mad at. They were getting all the profits and we weren't.

GEORGE STONEY: Good. That's just --

(break in video)

THORNBURGH: I (inaudible) talk about that. What Judy says. (laughter) Let's just put down what Judy said, what Judy said. Um, well, while we were organizing, I can remember in our first meetings, when we were organizing the 00:02:00union, very few people, myself and about three others, we did all the talking. But as it went on, others then would get on their feet and start talking. And I think some of them were really surprised to find out that they could talk before an audience and that gave them a feeling, well, I said so and so in the union meeting. And I'd said that. And it was, it was really a great thing. And I think through that, that it, ah, lessened their fear. I can talk, I can do this. I felt that way about it.

GEORGE STONEY: Good, OK.

THORNBURGH: But in our, ah, first meetings, when we explained to them, we are union now, we are banded together, what we can do together, ah, they started bringing up all kinds of grievances, more about pay than anything else. That we 00:03:00should get paid more for running so many spindles or in the weave shop, so many looms or whatever it was. That was ah, a grievance that they were bringing up constantly. And the long hours, of course, that was always, ah, a thing that had been talking about. But through the NRA that was changed. We had these people who wouldn't, at first, I didn't think there was any fight in them at all. But I found out later that there was. Somebody just had to tell them that you're a fighter, (laughs) and show them something that they're fighting for. You can't fight unless you're fighting for something, so they did.

GEORGE STONEY: Great. OK.

THORNBURGH: That came through the Wagner...

GEORGE STONEY: Don't say that name. (inaudible)

THORNBURGH: OK. When we got the Wagner Act, ah, there was a clause in there 00:04:00that workers shall have the right, shall have the right to organize and bargain, I believe that was the word, with that ---

GEORGE STONEY: Let's start again. Stop. Let's try.

CREW: Rolling.

THORNBURGH: A lot of workers felt that President Roosevelt wanted them to join the union. Whether he did or not, he never did say so. But later, when we got the Wagner Act, where it said that workers shall have the right to organize and bargain collectively without fear or discrimination.

GEORGE STONEY: Sorry, need to go back on that because –(break in video) OK, when, when, when the NRA was passed...

THORNBURGH: Then do I go onto to say, for the Wagner?

GEORGE STONEY: That's right.

THORNBURGH: OK. Well, all right. Let's start over.

GEORGE STONEY: OK.

THORNBURGH: OK. A lot of workers thought that President Roosevelt wanted them to organize. He never did say that. But a lot of the people believed and felt 00:05:00that he did say that and they was using that for their protection, that President Roosevelt is going to protect us. We didn't have that. We didn't have him saying anything about that, until the Wagner Act, when they said, a clause in that says that "Workers shall have the right to organize and bargain collectively, without fear or discrimination."

GEORGE STONEY: Great, OK.

(break in video)

THORNBURGH: You know, I don't remember a lot about him because he breezed in and spoke at that convention and breezed out.

GEORGE STONEY: OK. We won't then. (break in video) So we begin to say (inaudible) we are ready.

THORNBURGH: You want me to say that now?

GEORGE STONEY: Yes, please.

THORNBURGH: OK.

GEORGE STONEY: OK.

THORNBURGH: We had all the people organized there and we certainly wanted to keep them that way and we thought we'd better provide some entertainment for them, as long as just talking to them about contract all the time, so we held a dance in the Moose Hall upstairs on South Gay Street.

GEORGE STONEY: OK.

(break in video)

JAMIE STONEY: Rolling.

THORNBURGH: What, and while we were in the process of negotiating our contract, we wanted to keep all of our group together as much as we could and we thought we'd better provide some entertainment for them. So we held a dance at the Moose Hall on Gay Street, with our own musicians. We had a guitar player from the Card Room. We had a, a fiddler, was in my department in the winding department and somebody played the piano, so we had music for our dance there.

GEORGE STONEY: Great.

(break in video)

THORNBURGH: That's about Highlander.

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.

THORNBURGH: OK.

CREW: We're rolling, we have speed.

GEORGE STONEY: OK.

THORNBURGH: I've always appreciated Highlander Center. No matter where I would go, where I would travel or anyplace like that, or where I would be working, I always thought of Highlander as a, a haven, as a shining light that Highlander would always be there. I used to think that Miles Horton was immortal, that he would always be there. But there will always be a Highlander 00:07:00and it's very comforting to know that there is such an organization in East Tennessee.

GEORGE STONEY: Great. Thank you. OK.

(break in video)

GEORGE STONEY: You mentioned there were the [lead?].

THORNBURGH: They were the [lead craft?]

GEORGE STONEY: But also, they had a certain independence, they could move from mill to mill.

THORNBURGH: That's right.

JUDITH HELFAND: The fact that he's supposed to come from, had been organizing Gastonia, that was what helped them to organize here and that continuity is important.

GEORGE STONEY: OK, if you're ready.

THORNBURGH: All right. We had weavers and weavers, um, that was considered the skilled trade. I don't, I never did know why that would be any more complicated than spinning and carding and some of that, but weaving was considered the skill trade and we had several weavers that came from the Gastonia strike. And while they didn't, ah...

GEORGE STONEY: I'm sorry. Let's start again because we won't say "that 00:08:00big strike in Gastonia back in '29."

THORNBURGH: In '29. OK.

GEORGE STONEY: OK, go.

THORNBURGH: We had several weavers, ah, who had come out of the big strike in Gastonia in 1929. And while they didn't, ah, didn't seem at first interested in organizing the whole mill, they did get the other weavers together and had what we called the "wildcat strikes," so they did become the leaders then, in the, in the, the weavers were actually the leaders in the strike all the way through. Our first president, Preacher [Camel?], president of the local was a weaver. So the weavers were the elite people.

GEORGE STONEY: Great, OK. Judy?

HELFAND: OK. We had talked a little bit about, um, can we stop that?

(break in video)

HELFAND: OK.

THORNBURGH: Our members, and particularly the ones that were very active in the 00:09:00strike, found out for themselves that there was a better way of life. They had been taught that while my father worked in the mill, my mother worked in the mill, we live in the mill village, we live in the low income neighborhoods, and that's all there is. But I think the, um, the courage that they gained from seeing what we could do on the picket line, that they carried that over into their lives. I know that I did, thinking I can do something else. And I think that the strike was certainly helpful there.

GEORGE STONEY: Great. OK.

CREW: You're on. (beep) Room tone for the interview that comes before this.

HELFAND: ...the guy's light on.

CREW: Rolling.

THORNBURGH: What used to be the Cherokee Spinning Company here, then on [Concord?] Avenue and Southern Avenue has now become Cherokee Place. It is so beautiful around here now that you would never know it was the same place. We had steps on one side going up, little iron step and then down here on the 00:11:00Concord side of the street was the big gate, where we went in every day and by the way, that's where the bosses were standing when we tried to go back in and were blacklisted. It's become a very pretty place here now. It was just a big brick building. But right over there is the steps where they went up to the card room.

GEORGE STONEY: How do you feel about it being, ah, transformed?

THORNBURGH: Well, I guess of all the hard work that I did there, I'm glad to see something better come out of it. Ah, but still, it, it was a part of Knoxville. It was a part of my young life.

GEORGE STONEY: Would you have any idea of what they might have done instead of what they did?

THORNBURGH: Well, you know, before it became Cherokee Place, ah, it was a department store. But that didn't, that didn't, ah, go there at all and it 00:12:00was moved into that, and then it, another time it was Tom's Peanut Factory and that didn't go over at all. So they've transformed it now into this, ah, beautiful, ah, plaza there.

GEORGE STONEY: Do you think they should have a plaque or anything to the textile workers whose lives were spent in the place?

THORNBURGH: I would like to see it there, but who's going to put it up?

GEORGE STONEY: Not this, I'd like to see a plaque or something.

THORNBURGH: Oh, I would like to see a plaque there. But who's going to put it up?

GEORGE STONEY: A plaque that's saying what?

THORNBURGH: OK. I would like to see a plaque there saying that it was dedicated to the blacklisted strike, ah, strikers at Cherokee Spinning Company. But who's going to put it up there?

GEORGE STONEY: Could you say that again?

THORNBURGH: (laughs) What did I say?

GEORGE STONEY: I'd like to see a plaque.

THORNBURGH: I would like to see a plaque put up there and right there in front 00:13:00of where it says "Cherokee Place" and have it in big letters there, "Dedicated to the blacklisted textile workers of Cherokee Spinning Company," but who's going to put it up?

GEORGE STONEY: (laughs) That's wonderful.

(break in video)

(outside; b-roll)

GEORGE STONEY: Why do you say that now? (inaudible)

CREW: (inaudible) --- and they're walking out and you can see (inaudible) slow 00:14:00pullback (inaudible). Let her futz around for a few minutes and get pointing. We're going to 2X. There, you can see her face clearly, great, OK? OK?

GEORGE STONEY: Fine, OK. Let's do that.

CREW: OK. We got a wide shot.

CREW: (inaudible)

CREW: What's that?

CREW: Do you want me to do it again?

CREW: No, looked all right.

(break in video)

GEORGE STONEY: All right, just read off the things, the Cherokee Place and so forth.

THORNBURGH: This is the Cherokee Place here, that's Days Inn, Career College, Office Suite, Pelly & Associates, System, Incorporated, Walter White, Tusculum College, Industrial Applications and Mill Building and Belmont Energy and the 00:15:00Dial America One. That certainly is a long ways from when it was the old Cherokee Spinning Company. And while this is nice and it's a beautiful building, I would like to see a plaque put up here, oh, maybe right here would be a nice place for it, that says, "Dedicated to the locked out strikers of Cherokee Spinning Company in 1934."

GEORGE STONEY: Who's going to put it up?

THORNBURGH: Should I say that?

GEORGE STONEY: Yes.

CREW: I'd like to do this again.

GEORGE STONEY: OK. (inaudible) OK.

THORNBURGH: This is Cherokee Place. And it certainly is different than when it was the old Cherokee Spinning Company. They have Days Inn, Career College, Office Suites, Pelly Associates, Systems Corporation, Walter White, Tusculum College, Industrial Application, Mill Building, ah, [Delmar?] Energy and Dial America. That certainly is a long ways from where we come. I would like to see 00:16:00a plaque put up, oh, like here, saying, "Dedicated to the blacklisted textile workers of Cherokee Spinning Company in 1934." Is that all right?

CREW: Why don't you just start talking and I'll get to you, OK?

THORNBURGH: This is Cherokee Place. Look at it now. Which has a place here for Days Inn, Career College, Office Suites, Pelly Associates, Systems Corporation, Walter S. White, Tusculum College, Industrial Application, Mill Building, [Delmar?] Energy and Dial America. That's beautiful. But I would like to see a plaque put up here for the blacklisted Cherokee strikers in 1934.

F1: Where do you think you want to see plaque?

THORNBURGH: Oh, right here. Right here would be pretty.

HELFAND: Next to it.

THORNBURGH: (inaudible)

GEORGE STONEY: Who's going to put it up?

THORNBURGH: But who's going to put it up? I thought you were supposed to...

F1: No, that's your line.

CREW: (inaudible) Go. Rolling.

THORNBURGH: This is Cherokee Place. It certainly has changed since it was the old Cherokee Spinning Company. Look at it now. Days Inn, Career College, Office Suites, Kelly Associates.

CREW: Cut. My fault.

(break in video)

F1: (inaudible) building.

CREW: Rolling.

THORNBURGH: This is Cherokee Place. It certainly has changed since the days when it was the Cherokee Spinning Company. Look at it now. Days Inn, Career College, Office Suites, Kelly Associates, System Corporation, Walter S. White, Tusculum College, Industrial Application, Mill Building, [Bell-Med?] Energy and 00:18:00Dial America. That's a beautiful one. But I, I would like to see a plaque.

F1: What would the plaque say?

THORNBURGH: Dedicated to the blacklisted textile workers of Cherokee Spinning Company in 1934.

F1: Where would you want to put it?

THORNBURGH: I think right here. I think right here, even with that, would be a nice place for it. Because everybody would see it then. But who's going to put it up?

STONEY: I'd like to get the...

F1: He's not ready.

CREW: Go.

THORNBURGH: I'm getting (inaudible).

JAMIE STONEY: Ask her, where would she like to see it.

HELFAND: Where would you like to see it?

CREW: Do it again.

HELFAND: Where would you like to see it?

CREW: Smile.

CREW: OK.

THORNBURGH: Now I just say, you don't ask me who would put it up. I just say, I say, "Who would put it up?" is that right?

CREW: Yep, that's right.

THORNBURGH: Tell me when you're ready. (inaudible)

HELFAND: OK.

CREW: OK, take a half a step this way, to your left.

F1: You talking to me? Oh, OK.

CREW: Pick it up right now.

THORNBURGH: And what do I say?

JAMIE STONEY: Say, "Who would put it up?"

THORNBURGH: Ready?

JAMIE STONEY: Yep.

THORNBURGH: But who would put it up?

GEORGE STONEY: More like just, "But who's going to put it up?"

THORNBURGH: OK. But who's going to put it up?

GEORGE STONEY: OK.

F1: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)

THORNBURGH: But who's going to put it up? And I look at her.

GEORGE STONEY: Nice, OK, that's it.

CREW: (inaudible) turn around, a giant nose.

(break in audio) (white noise/room-outdoors tone)

[Silence]

[Silence]

[Silence]

CREW: There you go, long fucking drive ahead of us.

CREW: I told them that.

CREW: (inaudible) I'm just going to go chill out. (inaudible) drive on down. (background noise) I mean, a super (inaudible).

CREW: I know.

(break in video)

CREW: That was the deal I had.

[Silence]

[Silence]

[Silence]

JAMIE STONEY: (background noise) [All the guys?] (inaudible) a beat. We're doing a pan over from the Mill Village.

GEORGE STONEY: No, it's really from the, it's ---

JAMIE STONEY: No, I think it's my interpretation.

GEORGE STONEY: (inaudible)

CREW: I know (inaudible) took an hour and a half (inaudible). Something like that (inaudible) setups (inaudible) [Montgomery Horton?] (inaudible) I have an hour chart up here, time chart and probably some track a little bit for me because they're averaging it at 65 mph. And ah -- So from here to Atlanta, 00:28:00from Knoxville to Atlanta is four hours and 20 minutes. I would like that more like three hours, three and a half hours. So if we could (inaudible) list.