Lucille Thornburgh Interview

GEORGE GEORGE STONEY: I'm going, I'm going to ask you now one thing that I didn't get that I want you to get talked about is Miles Horton and the Robert's Rules of Order. Just explain that you knew nothing about, uh, running a meeting, and this is what Miles did for you. Very brief.

LUCILLE THORNBURGH: OK. Ready? When we first organized our union, naturally there was nobody there who knew how to really conduct a union. Uh, we would meet and start right off talking about, uh, whatever it was we wanted to talk about and when we got through we would adjourn and that was the meeting. But of -- after Miles Horton came to town, uh, he gave us some copies, particularly our president. He, our president was just a preacher. He didn't have any Robert's Rules of Order either. And Miles gave us copies of the Rules of Order 00:01:00and we started using those. And we liked it. We liked that idea, you know, of going down the line there and reading of the minutes, the treasurer's report, new business, old business and all that. Of course every one of our meetings was opened with prayer. And we always had an ample number of preachers to give it.

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah. We're going to have to do that again because of the noise outside.

GEORGE STONEY: Sorry.

THORNBURGH: OK then. What do we start off with?

GEORGE STONEY: We start off with the Miles.

THORNBURGH: We start off with the Miles Horton. Uh hmm.

GEORGE STONEY: All right?

THORNBURGH: Of course when we organized our union there was nobody there who knew how to conduct a meeting, uh, even though we'd been to other meetings we didn't know how to conduct a meeting in an official sort of way. But when Miles Horton came to town he introduced us to Robert's Rules of Order. First time I'd ever heard of it. And he gave a copy to our president, Preacher Camel. So Preacher starter started using that and we all liked it. It kept the meeting more orderly. And then but I wanted to remind you that we always opened 00:02:00our meeting with prayer. And there was always an ample number of preachers there to pray. We closed with prayer.

GEORGE STONEY: OK. Now, uh, tell me about a fellow named Keller.

THORNBURGH: Uh, uh, Keller was, uh, with the Brookside uh, Mills. Uh, he was very active and I think he was instrumental in organizing the Brookside. Uh, I think he was, uh, I don't know whether he worked in the card room or what he did there. But Keller was very, he was very active over there. And later he worked with Paul Christopher who was the CIO director in Tennessee.

GEORGE STONEY: Now this is a kind of philosophical question. Just a moment. Like I say, if you want to use that word --

THORNBURGH: Uh hmm.

GEORGE STONEY: Both positive and negative.

THORNBURGH: Well, many of the people who were in this strike and particularly, of course the black-listed ones. And some of them who were not. See, we didn't 00:03:00particularly blame those people for going back to work. The strike had been called off and the mill had opened. But some of them, one man I remember in particularly who was mentioned yesterday, uh, Jimmy Monroe. Uh, Jimmy had not been in a union before. He was a weaver. Uh, there at Cherokee. But he had -- he had no union knowledge at all until he joined the Cherokee and he later became an organizer for the glove workers. And he did a good job on that. And, uh, so did Larry Keller from, uh, the Brookside Mill. And we had several of those, uh, who did. There was one who died not too long after the strike. Uh, Ralph Goodman. He started working at TVA as a construction worker and was very helpful in getting good contracts negotiated, uh, with TVA.

GEORGE STONEY: OK I'm going to ask you to do that again just saying that a lot 00:04:00of our leaders they got black-listed. They spread out to other places but they became -- their experience in the strike made them good labor leaders in other places. And then give me an example.

THORNBURGH: OK.

GEORGE STONEY: OK. Jamie?

JAMIE STONEY: Rolling

GEORGE STONEY: Go.

THORNBURGH: Uh, many of the blacklisted, uh, workers there at Cherokee, uh, went on to other places and became good union leaders. But one of the things that, to me, was more significant there, of these people, you know, among factory workers, uh, there is not a great big turn over but there is some turnover. And one of the girls who was blacklisted along with me at Cherokee started working at Knoxville Glove Company and she organized the Glove Company. And then we had Ralph Goodman who went to work for TVA as a construction common laborer worker and was very instrumental in, uh, organizing all those people and getting a good contract with the Tennessee Valley Trades and Labor Council which was the TVA 00:05:00Organization. So they did go on, a lot of them did. And, uh, uh, Jimmy Monroe, uh, became an organizer for the Glove Workers.

GEORGE STONEY: You told us a story the other day.

THORNBURGH: We had one, uh, very, uh, disruptive thing to happen. And that was that Mr. Heinsohn who was, I don't know whether he was the owner. I'm sure he was one of the big stockholders and was the president of the Cherokee Spinning Company there, died of a heart attack. And some of our people, being in this Bible Belt felt that we might be responsible for that. And I was really concerned about it because by that time I was the President of the local. And I felt responsible to the people that we should do something about this. I didn't know what to do but Franz Daniel who was an organizer for the 00:06:00Amalgamated Clothing Workers, uh, came to town. And I asked him about it and he said, well, let me handle it. Let me. Oh, oh, handle it, yes, you handle it. And he did. We called a meeting and he told the people there, you know, he just more or less glazed over it. He said, I see in the paper where Mr. Heinsohn has died and don't you people feel any guilt whatever over this. What the old man's conscience did to hi m has nothing to do with you. And we glanced over and that seemed to satisfy the people. But I was really concerned about that one.

GEORGE STONEY: (inaudible) Sorry. Thank you Judy for catching that.

THORNBURGH: Uh huh. Yeah I'm glad you caught it too because I'd said it wrong. It was Mabry.

JAMIE STONEY: Yeah. We're rolling.

GEORGE STONEY: OK that's --

THORNBURGH: Is that the way it's pronounced in there? Mabry?

JUDITH HELFAND: No.

GEORGE STONEY: OK. OK, right.

THORNBURGH: Uh, something that was very disruptive, uh, during our strike was there that Mr. Mebbin the president and I suppose the major stockholder in 00:07:00Cherokee died of a heart attack and I was President of the Local there and I didn't know how to handle that. I knew with all these religious people, in fact some of them had already called to tell me that, well, maybe we caused Mr. Mebbin to have the heart attack and I did not know how to handle it. But Franz Daniels, he was an organizer with Amalgamated Clothing Workers came to Knoxville. They were organizing the old Knoxville Shirt Company at that time. And he -- I told him about this situation I was in. And he said, well, let me handle it. I said, fine, fine, you come to our meeting. So he came to our meeting and he did it very casually. He said I read in the newspaper where Mr. Mebbin had died and I don't want you people to think very much about that or think that you had anything to do what the old man's conscience did to him. 00:08:00And that seemed to satisfy them, there was no more argument or feeling that we were guilty of that.

GEORGE STONEY: OK. Now, uh, let's hold it just (inaudible).

THORNBURGH: At the time of our organizing, uh, there -- I found out later that there were very few women, uh, active in the labor movement. In fact I -- I think I was the first woman delegate to the Central Labor Council here. And that was, uh, they -- the way the, the rest of the delegates, uh, looked upon me was, well, she might be good to help organize a lady's auxiliary but they didn't quite accept the fact that I was president of a local. They hadn't heard of a woman being president of a local, uh, before. But out of our union and out of the shirt factory, the Amalgamated Clothing Worker people, uh, we got more women 00:09:00organizers and then I was also the first Vice President of the Tennessee Federation of Labor. And at that convention I think we must have had eight or ten women which was very unusual at that time. And I think with, uh, all the good work that the Amalgamated Clothing Workers and International Lady Garment Workers and those in the, the hotel and restaurant workers, I think now that they have brought the status of women up. But, uh, we, we were more or less ignored.

GEORGE STONEY: OK. Now --

THORNBURGH: You know what I'm saying?

THORNBURGH: As you probably noticed in that scrapbook there are several pictures of me, uh, in there. And they would always say pretty, so and so or this that and the other, uh, about me. I think it was something new to them for a woman to be uh, a leader there. I think that was why that they -- why they used that. And 00:10:00at the time I didn't care. I thought it was good publicity for our strike. But I think that's why they would do use -- they didn't say Foots Weaver was a handsome or something like that. But they said I was pretty because I was the woman leader there.

GEORGE STONEY: OK. Good. Now, go.

THORNBURGH: Well, one good thing. During our strike they didn't call out the National Guard on us. And we had very little trouble with any of the law officials around here. And I think what that was, as we were talking about this yesterday and Foots was talking about the deputy sheriff who was a friend of ours. I think that they -- they were on low salaries too. And I think they sort of admired what we were doing and overlooked things but they couldn't come out and say that they was for us. So they didn't bother us too much. Undercover they were helping us.

GEORGE STONEY: Could we do that again and not refer to what Foot said yesterday?

THORNBURGH: OK. OK. All right. What did we start -- what did I start out saying?

GEORGE STONEY: About the police. That they didn't call out the troops.

THORNBURGH: Oh, one good thing that we had here. They did not call out the troops on us. We didn't have that. And we had a pretty good relationship, uh, with all the law enforcement, uh, people. We had the deputy sheriffs who would come around and the policemen. But see, they were all on low salary too. And they were sort of backing us, however, undercover. But we didn't get arrested on the picket line, none of us did. I think they were for us. Maybe if you win it will give us courage to win, or I, I don't know what they were thinking. But they were more or less on our side, undercover.

GEORGE STONEY: Right. That's beautiful. OK. Uh, just (inaudible) right across the way, OK?

THORNBURGH: Uh, there, there was never a union and I wonder if there ever will 00:12:00-- well, there won't be a standard now because there is no standard --

GEORGE STONEY: Let's start again.

THORNBURGH: All right.

GEORGE STONEY: Just there wasn't a union.

THORNBURGH: Uh, there wasn't a union at the Standard Knitting Mill. But I can tell you something that I believe and all of, all of us union members here in town believe. We think that our efforts and our strike at Cherokee improved conditions at the Standard Mill. In fact, we know it did because we had people, as I told you, that the people would float from one Mill to another and people who worked at the Standard that I had known, said, every time that we -- and we did, it was tried over the years, it was tried by Amalgamated Clothing Workers and Textile Workers too to organize the Standard. Every time we'd put on an organizing drive there they would get better conditions and higher wages. We know that we got air conditioning into the Standard Mill. See, there was no air 00:13:00conditioning at the other Mills.

GEORGE STONEY: I'm going to ask you to do that again and just make it a little tighter.

THORNBURGH: OK. Not say so much.

GEORGE STONEY: That's right.

THORNBURGH: OK.

GEORGE STONEY: OK, Jamie?

JAMIE STONEY: Roll.

THORNBURGH: Now, there was no union at the Standard Knitting Mill. Uh, we had tried for years to get a union there. The Amalgamated Clothing Workers tried it and the Textile Workers tried it, uh, but we were never successful. But I believe and so do a lot of the other union people here in town believe that it was through our efforts of organizing Standard that got better conditions at Standard including air conditioning.

GEORGE STONEY: Good. OK, uh.

THORNBURGH: We didn't give it much consideration but we did know it.

GEORGE STONEY: OK then I think we won't go into that.

THORNBURGH: No. Let's see now. Well, after that strike and all of that I had gone through with on that, even little things like learning Robert's Rules of 00:14:00Order and finding out what an injunction was, uh, I thought then, well, I have -- I have learned this much here and there is a better life than in that Cherokee Mill or working anywhere in a mill. And that if I had learned that much there was so much more to be learned that I went on from there. Of course I -- my first job away from there was working for TVA as a file clerk. And from there I was transferred to Wilson Dam. TVA Wilson Dam.

GEORGE STONEY: OK. Now --

THORNBURGH: OK.

GEORGE STONEY: OK.

THORNBURGH: You ready? Uh, we had the largest Labor Day parade that they said at the time that it was the largest one that was ever held in the south. Maybe in the whole country.

GEORGE STONEY: I'm sorry. The next year. I mean the two years later, 1936.

THORNBURGH: Do I say 1936?

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah, no, you didn't say it.

THORNBURGH: You want me to say 1936?

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah that's right.

THORNBURGH: OK. OK.

GEORGE STONEY: Start out -- let's just say the -- even though I was blacklisted. OK go.

THORNBURGH: Start out in 1936? OK. In 1936 even though I was working for TVA at that time, I took my vacation leave to work toward helping to put on the biggest Labor Day Parade that we have ever had here. I've forgotten whose idea it was but it was a tremendous idea that we have the parade go from Knoxville to Maryville which is 16 miles so we could get the aluminum workers over at Alcoa into the plan. And that was a big, big thing and even though I was working for TVA my heart was always in the labor Movement. It never left. Even though I went on to -- they transferred me to Wilson Dam and from Wilson Dam I went to 00:16:00Washington to work in the War department at Fort Belvoir Virginia. But, uh, I, I -- I could never be a typical government employee. I was always thinking about the labor movement. So I left the War Department at a tremendous salary. I was making $2,250 a year and people thought that I was crazy to come back to Knoxville and take a job with the Central Labor Council at $35 a week. But that's what I did.

GEORGE STONEY: Now something we haven't touched on at all.

THORNBURGH: Uh, so far as I know there was no blacks at the Appalachian Mill at all. It seems to me that there was two blacks at Cherokee. I know there was one. There was a black maid there and there was a black janitor in the weave shop. But there were no blacks. And you must remember at that time, our buses and our 00:17:00streetcars were segregated. Whites in front and blacks in the back. So the mills were definitely segregated.

GEORGE STONEY: OK, good. OK. OK.

THORNBURGH: Well, I am as you can tell, I am 83 years old and I have never stopped since the Cherokee strike. I've been interested in the Labor Movement. And it came about in a natural sort of way. When I retired, I retired at 62 because the paper -- the East Tennessee Labor News was going out of business. And I retired at 62 and at that same time the National Council of Senior Citizens, which is a union-based senior's organization was coming through here.

JAMIE STONEY: Just a second. Sorry.

THORNBURGH: Is he ready?

JAMIE STONEY: Yes, yes I was.

THORNBURGH: OK. Well, I'm 83 years old now and I have never lost my interest 00:18:00in the Labor Movement since the Cherokee strike. I think I realized then, even though I considered our strike lost and a disaster, I still think and believe and know that the way for workers to earn a better way of life is through the labor movement. And after I semi-retired at age 62 I started working for the National Council of Senior Citizens. Uh, that's an organization that is union based. It's supported by the larger unions and it is a union -- strictly a union organization. And I worked for them for, oh, about a year. And we organized a large club of senior citizens here in Knoxville. And then I was no longer working for them. They don't have paid staff, of course in the United States. I started working for the Community Action Committee here in the 00:19:00transportation department. And that's what I'm doing now. And in my job I have -- it's a -- I consider it a rather rewarding job. Uh, I arrange rides for low income indigent people who have no way to get to the doctor, to get to the grocery store, to do any essential errands. And that's what I'm doing now on a part time basis. And I like it. Uh, I like to be working. And regardless of what other people might think about my services, I think I'm doing something. And th--

GEORGE STONEY: Now I'm going to do that one more time. We may be able to use that.

THORNBURGH: OK.

GEORGE STONEY: But I also want you to say (inaudible) in case we don't have time.

THORNBURGH: OK.

GEORGE STONEY: OK?

THORNBURGH: OK. I'm 83 years old now. And I'm still working. I work for the Committee -- let's start over.

GEORGE STONEY: OK.

THORNBURGH: I started to say it wrong. OK. I'm 83 years old now. And I work 00:20:00for the Office on Aging. Uh, I work in the transportation department there arranging rides for indigent, low income people who have no other means of getting to the doctor, on essential errands, to the grocery store or anywhere. 00:21:00And I feel that it's a very rewarding job. I feel like that I am still contributing something.

GEORGE STONEY: Great.

JAMIE STONEY: Uh, I hit the wall in the middle of that.

CAMERA MAN: Yeah and I've got somebody with a backup alarm outside.

JAMIE STONEY: Yeah.

THORNBURGH: It's a light on.

JAMIE STONEY: It's on.

THORNBURGH: I'm 83 years old now. And I'm still working. I work for the Office on Aging in the transportation department. And I feel that it's a real rewarding job. Course I just work part time. But arranging rides for indigent, low income people, women who have no other way to get their children to the doctor and to go on essential errands like the grocery store and the drug store and I feel that it's a real rewarding job.

GEORGE STONEY: Good. What about your health?

THORNBURGH: My health is excellent. In fact I had a complete physical examination just a year and a half ago and I don't have any of the things that I'm supposed to have. Like arthritis, not diabetic, no high blood pressure. So far not Alzheimer's. So I mean I think I'm in perfect health. Except Shingles.

GEORGE STONEY: That's great. OK. You, uh, way back yonder, uh, you were accused in the papers of being a communist. Uh, tell how you felt about that, how you -- what your father said about that and then what other people said. OK?

THORNBURGH: Oh. I was --

JAMIE STONEY: OK when you're ready, we're rolling.

GEORGE STONEY: OK. About communists.

THORNBURGH: When I was accused of being a communist, uh, the worst thing about 00:22:00that was, was the big headline in the New Sentinel on a Saturday afternoon. And of course that was spread all through the neighborhood and all over Knoxville and there was my picture on the front page. Of being accused of being a communist. And I didn't worry very much about it because a friend of mine told me how to take newspaper stories. I wish I could remember all of it but part of it was that if -- when your friends see it, uh, they're going to like you just the same. It won't make any difference to them and you don't care what your enemies think so it -- don't let it bother you. Uh, but it did disturb me. Among people who didn't know, didn't know what communism was or what I had been up to that I would be accused of being a communist. So it was very bad. They, you know, being in this, uh, Bible Belt and around in conservative East Tennessee, uh, being labeled a communist was not a good thing. Certainly was not.

GEORGE STONEY: What did your father say?

THORNBURGH: Uh, my father, when he read that paper and saw what it was, he said 00:23:00don't pay any attention to them dumb SOBS. They don't --

GEORGE STONEY: (inaudible) say when your father read that about being a communist.

THORNBURGH: Oh, put that in front?

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.

THORNBURGH: When my father read in the paper about me being a communist and I was wondering what was -- the effect it was going to have, and he said, oh, don't pay any attention to them damned SOBS and they don't know the difference between communism and rheumatism. Didn't worry about it at all. So I stopped worrying about it too. And it was, you'd be surprised at the number of people, uh, who told me later that they did see the paper. That's about all. There wasn't any -- and like my friend had said, your friends didn't care and I didn't care what my enemies thought. So.

GEORGE STONEY: I'm sorry. We're going to have to just

JAMIE STONEY: Just the first question again. I was a little soft on the focus.

GEORGE STONEY: I'm sorry.

JAMIE STONEY: You were talking about your picture being in the paper on Saturday afternoon.

THORNBURGH: We have to start there?

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.

THORNBURGH: When my picture came out, uh, in the New Sentinel on a Saturday 00:24:00afternoon, of course everybody saw the paper. Everybody that was taking the paper saw it. And it was -- I was a little concerned about it. Living here in conservative East Tennessee and in the Bible Belt, uh, what people would think about it. But after my father saw what was in the newspaper there and I told him --

CREW: I'm sorry. We missed it all because you haven't said, in this take you haven't said anything about communism.

THORNBURGH: Oh.

GEORGE STONEY: I'm sorry.

THORNBURGH: I said my picture was -- OK, OK. Now, we ready?

CREW: Yes ma'am.

THORNBURGH: OK. I was labeled as a communist in the Knoxville New Sentinel on a Saturday afternoon.

GEORGE STONEY: Was it New Sentinel or Journal?

THORNBURGH: Oh, that was a Sentinel. That was in the Sentinel because the Journal was the morning paper.

GEORGE STONEY: I beg your pardon. I'm sorry to interrupt.

THORNBURGH: OK. Ahem. I was labeled as a communist in the Knoxville New Sentinel 00:25:00and I shall never forget when that paper came out it was a Saturday afternoon. And I looked at the paper as did everybody else in Knoxville who took the paper, and there I was on the front page being called communist. And I was really concerned about it because living here in the Bible Belt and in conservative East Tennessee I knew that that was not a good label to have. But my father wasn't concerned about it. When he read in the paper that I had been labeled a communist all he said was, don't pay any attention to it, those dumb SOB's don't know the different between communism and rheumatism. And sure enough, it worked out that way. Nobody ever accused me of it again.

GEORGE STONEY: OK. Uh.

THORNBURGH: I wonder what year that was. Did we look that up?

HELFAND: Twenty-seven.

GEORGE STONEY: Nineteen twenty-seven. Nineteen twenty-seven.

THORNBURGH: That was 1927. And that's right. We moved to Knoxville in 1926, 00:26:00well, anyway, 1927. Uh, I was working at the Appalachian Mill which is long since gone out of business. But that building of course is still there on the corner of Fort Sanders and Dale Avenues. And uh, what Standard Knitting Mill made was men's long underwear. And that's what we were working in. And going to work one morning, this was in 1927, there it was. Printed across the street, in great big yellow letters, Free Sacco and Vanzetti. We went on into the mill and everybody was asking who in the dickens is Sacco and Vanzetti? Of course in the mill, you know, you have to have some fun and rumors going so by the time we were through work and everybody knew who they were and some of the girls had dated them and all that kind of stuff.

GEORGE STONEY: That's great. OK. Now.

THORNBURGH: Well, in school I talk about not knowing anything about the Labor 00:27:00Movement during our strike where would I have learned anything about it? We had these extremely conservative newspapers and I certainly didn't learn anything about it in school.

GEORGE STONEY: Great. OK.

THORNBURGH: Uh, I wasn't -- they put the beedo system in at the Appalachian Mill. At the time I was working at Cherokee. So I heard all about the beedo system but I'm not, not fully acquainted with how it worked. I know it was a stretch out system.

GEORGE STONEY: Good. OK. Uh,

THORNBURGH: We knew that the labor boards existed. Uh, but we, we never, we never got anything beneficial from the boards. Uh, every time we'd take a case to them of any kind it was stalled. And I think maybe -- uh, I don't think the boards were doing as much as they could. But you must remember that these boards 00:28:00were something new to the people all the way around. So possibly the people on the boards didn't know what to do either.

GEORGE STONEY: Very good. Now let's try this. All right.

THORNBURGH: Because those boards were stacked with those people.

GEORGE STONEY: That's right, yeah.

THORNBURGH: Uh, the boards that we needed to appeal to were really stacked, uh, with management, uh, corporate, uh, people. So we didn't know exactly, uh, we wanted to appeal to them to let them know that we were here. Uh, we were a little bit conscious of the fact that our letters possibly weren't as well worded as they might be. But we still said if we write them in our own language and get them to them they'll know that we're here.

GEORGE STONEY: Now I'm going to try that one more time. I'd like (inaudible) OK.

THORNBURGH: Uh, we wrote letters, we strikers, wrote letters to all the boards that we could think of. If we saw a name in the paper and he was on some board we would write him a letter. But we did realize too that we were up against some 00:29:00strong competition there. When the company was hiring high priced lawyers like Leon Jeroman that we, that we were actually competing with them. We knew that our letters possibly weren't as well worded. But we still wanted to send them to let them know that we were here. They did get our letters.

GEORGE STONEY: Good. OK.