JAMIE STONEY: When I used to do transfers, Id check like, one tape out ofa box, usually. I would double -- I would zero.
(break in audio)
THOM MALCOLM: Hi, Ma.
TELIA "MAME" GRIFFITH: Hey! How you doing?
MALCOLM: Oh, pretty good.
GRIFFITH: Come on in, son. Well, well, well.
MALCOLM: How you been doing?
GRIFFITH: How you doing? (inaudible) Im doing just fine.00:01:00
MALCOLM: Aunt Katie said --
GRIFFITH: Get down, get down.
MALCOLM: -- said to tell you hi. And, uh --
GRIFFITH: Well, good.
MALCOLM: You know, Anne shes in there working, today.
GRIFFITH: Yeah, yeah.
MALCOLM: I'm going to have to go in a little bit.
GRIFFITH: Oh, I wish I could work. Oh, I miss my job so bad.
MALCOLM: Shoot, wed love -- wed love to have you down there. We needsomebody to get everybody fired up down there.
GRIFFITH: Thats truth.
MALCOLM: Ma, you remember, here, a while back, when we did the tape recording thing?
MALCOLM: Well, that worked out so good that I --
MALCOLM: -- what I wanted to do is, try to do it on a video camera.
GRIFFITH: Well, thats fine. Thats fine.
MALCOLM: Think you'd enjoy doing it? I know I'd enjoy doing it with you.
MALCOLM: But that audio tape, it was real good. I really love that.
GRIFFITH: Yeah. Well, Im glad you did, son. Well, every word I told you was true.
MALCOLM: Oh, I know it was. You worked a long time in that cotton mill.
GRIFFITH: Yes, I certainly did. And I miss my job. I cried for two weeks afterthey laid -- you know, after I retired. 00:02:00
MALCOLM: Made you retired?
GRIFFITH: I wanted to go back so bad. I love --
(break in audio)
GRIFFITH: I'll throw your clothes off you and throw you in a briar patch. (laughs)
GEORGE STONEY: OK.
MALCOLM: Start now.
MALCOLM: Ma, remember how we talked on the tape that time, the audio tape?Well, what I want you to do is just kind of tell me about how, when you -- how old you was when you first went to work in the mill, and what you was doing, and kind of how -- what the conditions was and, you know, how you liked it, and what you really thought about working in the mill, and how the pay was, and things like that.
GRIFFITH: OK. All right. When do you want me to start? Well, I dont know-- hardly know how to start it out. Thats --
MALCOLM: Just, just like we did on the, uh, audio tape. That -- like we ainteven got a camera, you know. Just --
GRIFFITH: Well, uh, when I went to work in the mill, of course, uh, I didntwant to go to school. Now, thats my business. I was only in the fourth 00:03:00grade and I just didnt like school. And I didnt want to go to school. I decided I wanted to go to the mill and go to work. Well, Mama said, No, you cant go out. I said, Well, Mama, I dont want to go to school. Well, she said, Well, nothingll do you but to go to school. She had sold my horse and wagon. See, I used to haul stove wood. See, I worked, uh, down at the -- at the Pepperell Mill Village. You know, Id buy that wood for a quarter a load and Id bring it up here and Mr. Segers, he had a cancer on the side of his face. But hed chop it up for me and Id load it back in my wagon, and take it over here at the mill village, sell it for a dollar a load. So one morning me and little May Roy and, uh, uh, little May Roy and Johnny 00:04:00Futchell. We was on the wagon, and they was cutting up. And I didnt hear the train coming. And you know the bend just below the mill?
MALCOLM: Yes, maam.
GRIFFITH: The big bend?
MALCOLM: Right, right where I work at?
GRIFFITH: A big nine oclock passenger train was coming, but I didnt hearit. Well, just to my wheels of the wagon was over in the, in the track of the train. You know, in the, the rails. Well, that train blowed, and I had a minute to get off of there. And I just thought, you know. I grabbed that scantlin' and hit that horse. And it dropped off. Just as my hind wheels went off of the track, the train went by.
MALCOLM: It was time to go to work in the mills, then, wasnt it?
MALCOLM: That scared you to death.
GRIFFITH: So, Mama sold my horse and wagon. Thats what got me started in themill. I told Mama, I want to go work in the mill. She said, Youre too little. And they aint going to hire you. I said, I bet they do! So I went to the mill and I went to work.
MALCOLM: How old was you went you went to the mill, Ma?
GRIFFITH: I was 14 years old. About 14. Thirteen or fourteen. And uh, theysaid, Well, the professor at the schools going to get you. I said, Not if I can help it. So I went on up in the mill and the boss hired me. He asked me how old I was, and I had to go to the doctor and all this, and that and the other. But anyhow, I went on and asked the boss, and he said yeah, he wanted me to work. Well, I was too little to reach the spoolers, so Vivian Hollis -- Im going to put him in that, too. Vivian Hollis was a fixer. So 00:06:00he goes and makes me a little bench. And stood it up by the spoolers. The spoolers run on belts, then. There wasnt no -- you know, like there are now.
GRIFFITH: And uh, so, Id stand up on that, and Id tie that knot for thatknotteron my hand, you know. It was running slow. It wasnt running speed, fast, like it is now. But anyway, he seen that I wasnt doing so good on that, so he took me off that and put me to, to back winding. Well, hed watch for me and Id watch for him, and wed see that old, uh, school woman a coming, hed put me down in the big box and put a lid on me.
MALCOLM: Hed hide, you wouldnt he?
GRIFFITH: Yeah! And whenever she go out the gate, go off, well then hed got00:07:00over and get me out of that box and put me back to work. (laughs)
MALCOLM: Put you right back on you job.
GRIFFITH: Right back on my job. Well, I worked for $2.50 a week. Now, that wasa week! Until nine oclock on Saturday night. So, when I got my little paycheck --
(break in audio)
MALCOLM: OK, Ma.
GRIFFITH: When I got my little paycheck, I was so proud of it. But uh, I runhome and give it to my Mama, and uh, you could get the show up there for a nickel. Well, maybe sometime Mamad give me a dime, or a nickel. Id go get me a bag of popcorn for a nickel, and Id go to the show. It wasnt a talking picture. It was on the screen, you know. And uh, anyway, um --
MALCOLM: Ma, you was talking about, uh, that -- they didnt actually give you00:08:00paychecks, did they? You know, you --
GRIFFITH: Oh, no! You had to, uh, you had, uh, a big old round wheel with ahole in it --
GEORGE STONEY: Im sorry --
GRIFFITH: -- with a number.
GEORGE STONEY: Im sorry. Let me get -- I made a mistake there. Get on her,and then ask the question. You didnt get paid in, in, in checks. OK. Now --
MALCOLM: Which -- ask the question again? Ma, they didnt actually you payyou with a paycheck, did they?
MALCOLM: They didnt actually pay you with paychecks, did they? They --
GRIFFITH: No! They paid us with money. They had an envelope, as I started totell you, with a number on it. Was the same thing as this here big --
MALCOLM: Like a medallion, like.
GRIFFITH: Yeah, yeah. But, but it was -- looked like a half a dollar. Butbigger. And it had a hole in it, and you had to wear that around your neck. If you didnt have that number, they wouldnt give you that paycheck. And so, Mr. Jim Span, my paymaster, they bring the money in the mill and youd, 00:09:00youd took that and give it to him, and then hed give you your money. You didnt write no checks!
MALCOLM: Paid you in --
GRIFFITH: You didnt have no checks.
MALCOLM: Paid you in cash? Cash money.
GRIFFITH: Cash money. And thats what I was telling. Id take my money andId run home and give it to Mama. I want Mama to have it. Well, you know, back then, it didnt take very much. At stores, one -- just one or two stores here, and all you could buy was coffee and sugar and soda. And uh, coffee, sugar, and soda. And thats about all you could get at the store. You had to raise your own vegetables. You killed you own meat. What else did you want?
MALCOLM: Didnt need much else, did you?
GRIFFITH: Thats right.
GEORGE STONEY: What about house rent? Where'd you live?
GRIFFITH: There wasnt no house rent.00:10:00
MALCOLM: You lived -- did you live in a mill house?
GRIFFITH: Yeah. My Mama lived in a mill house.
MALCOLM: How was -- how was it like, living in a mill house? Was it -- youknow, compared to maybe the house you living in now, or maybe the house that Anne and I live in.
GRIFFITH: Oh, well, you, you thought you were a little better, you know, that --that --
MALCOLM: Was it a pretty good place to grow up in? You know, uh, a lot ofpeople to play with, and --
GRIFFITH: It wasnt open like a mill village. And you know, where the --where the railroad crosses to go down, you know, where the mill is.
GRIFFITH: You come on down, and the first turn up, that you go across downthere. Go across the railroad, that first house there is the house that my Mama lived in.
MALCOLM: Remember when we was talking about earlier how the -- where I work atnow, the personnel department in our union office, is where you used to go to school at.
GRIFFITH: Yeah. I went to school in front of the mill, now, in uh, uh, the00:11:00personnel office. Them steps out there?
GRIFFITH: I played on them when I was a little girl. But as I started to tellyou, when I went in the mill, uh, when the school woman would come, in the mill, hunting kids, you know, that was in there, wasnt -- supposed to have been in school, which I know I ought to have been, by now. But I didnt know it then. I didnt want to go. But still, I got my good education. I know how to read and write. I learn it after I got grown. And I can count money when I have it. I dont have very much to count, but I can count what little bit I got.
MALCOLM: Ma, howd you learn to read?
MALCOLM: How did you learn to read?
GRIFFITH: Well, I just learned it. I picked it up. God give it to me. Why?
MALCOLM: I was just curious. Its kind of hard to --
GRIFFITH: Thats right,
MALCOLM: -- hard to learn to read on your own. Uh, you remember, uh, how it was00:12:00when Hoover was president during the Depression and how, if it got any better after Roosevelt got elected, and you know, he start putting social security?
GRIFFITH: Oh, yeah.
MALCOLM: How was it when Hoover was president during the Depression?
GRIFFITH: It was bad. I can tell you that. It was just starvation. Thatsit. You couldnt buy a job. And you just almost starved to death. I swept yards and cleaned yards and scrubbed floors and washed clothes up here in town, with these rich people, to make my baby a living.
MALCOLM: Did uh, you remember when, uh, when Hoover was president, do youremember having to work 12 hours a day? You know, and then when Roosevelt --
GRIFFITH: No, you couldnt buy a job then.
MALCOLM: No, Im talking about after, you know, you got to where you -- afterthings picked back up, and you could -- you finally did get you a job.
GRIFFITH: When Roosevelt took over, well then, I got me a job in the mill. AndI worked about two weeks. I was working in the valley. In Lanett Mill. And 00:13:00uh, then they said they was going to split it up in shifts--
(break in audio)
GRIFFITH: Uh, Julie.
GEORGE STONEY: OK, well start where we talked about, uh, well get you to,uh, start talking about Roosevelt. Ask about when the -- when the, when the Blue Eagle came, and Roosevelt came in, and the Blue Eagle, and the NRA.
MALCOLM: Uh, we, we was talking -- talking about how after things picked up andyou got started back to working the mill, and how some of the changes Roosevelt brought about with, with what I call it, the cide -- people call it different things. You know, when he got --
GRIFFITH: It was the pressure. You know, when, when uh, Roosevelt took over.
GRIFFITH: Well, anyway, uh, they -- they come around, and they told us we had tosign up for our social security. And uh, I said, Whats that? I was dumb. 00:14:00
MALCOLM: I still wonder what it is. (laughs)
GRIFFITH: I said, Whats that? He said, That -- the lady thatsigned me up told me, said, That is your security when you get so old you cant work. That youll grow it to live on. And I said, Well, thatll be good. So, uh, then they started taking, uh, tax and, and social security, you know, and stuff out on our checks, then.
MALCOLM: Well, uh, you worked at more than one mill, right?
GRIFFITH: Oh, yeah.
MALCOLM: Uh, would you like to tell us about some of the different millsyouve worked at? Some of the different places you lived in?
MALCOLM: Like, you -- you first started out, it, it was a -- Lanett --
GRIFFITH: Now, when I worked in Alabama City, I didnt have that social security.
MALCOLM: You didnt.
GRIFFITH: Uh-uh. I signed that up after I went to Lanett.00:15:00
MALCOLM: Lanett Mill.
GRIFFITH: Yeah. But it was a good mill, and I liked to work in it. And uh, mymother was going to come to Opelika, and uh, no -- she was going to LaGrange. Thats right. I get it right. She was coming to LaGrange, to my sister, Annie-May. You know, the one that passed away here.
MALCOLM: Yes, maam.
GRIFFITH: And uh, anyway, uh, she want me to come with her, and I quit my jobthere to come over here to LaGrange. Well, I went to work in Hillside.
GRIFFITH: Well, I didnt like that too good, and the old boss, he accused meof tying a knot -- with a knotter when I was supposed to tie it with my fingers. But I didnt -- I tied that knot with my fingers. But he said I tied it with a knotter, but I didnt. I -- I can tie a weave knot about as good as you can. 00:16:00
MALCOLM: Probably better.
GRIFFITH: And youre a weaver.
MALCOLM: No, Im not a weaver.
GRIFFITH: And, uh --
MALCOLM: Im a loom fixer.
GRIFFITH: Oh. I thought you was a weaver.
MALCOLM: No, my wife, Anne, shes a smash hand.
GRIFFITH: Oh yeah, thats right. But anyway, uh, he -- I got mad with him andI told him, I said, Well, if thats the way you feel about it, Ill just go home. I went home. And then uh, I come to Opelika and I got me a job in, lets see now. Wait a minute. Im getting ahead of myself.
MALCOLM: Well, just take your time. Lets...
GRIFFITH: Then I went to live with my sister. My older sister, Janey.
GRIFFITH: And uh... Then I went to, to the spinning mill, and uh... Then my,00:17:00then I had to quit work then, my little girl. Me and my husband was living together, and he run off and went to his mamas or somewhere, so I had to quit work and I live with my oldest sister, until my baby was born. And then I didnt work no more, then, until she was about five or six years old. Iley, my daughter.
MALCOLM: Is, is that when you come to Opelika Mill, after that? Or was the mill...
GRIFFITH: No... Then, yeah. Yeah. She was about five or six years old when Iwent to walking up, down the railroad, from Opelika Mill to Pepperell. I got me a job in Pepperell.
MALCOLM: Tell a little bit how you got your job in the Pepperell Mill. How --
MALCOLM: -- how hard it was to get a job.
GRIFFITH: OK. I'd go down the railroad track, by myself. Boy, I'd be hitting00:18:00it. Rain or shine, sleet or snow. I went. Well, I went around to the gate and uh, the old gate watchman wouldnt let me in. And I decided, I know a way I will get in. So, they was bringing trucks around, at the back of the mill. So, that morning I met the trucks around at the back of the mill and they opened the gate at the back of the mill. I went in beside the truck, and boy, I hauled it upstairs. And I -- and he hired me. Well, I went back out by the old gate watchman. He asked me, said, Howd you get in? I said, I come through the gate. And he said, You didnt get no job. I said, I did. Im coming to work tonight on the third shift.
MALCOLM: You showed him, didnt you.
GRIFFITH: Yeah. And I went to work on the third shift. But I come backwards00:19:00and forwards up at, not on no third shift. Listen to me, Im tellingyou wrong. It was on the night line.
MALCOLM: Night line.
GRIFFITH: Yeah. You know, they called it the --
MALCOLM: Was that a --
GRIFFITH: -- night line, and day line.
MALCOLM: Was that eight or twelve hours a day?
GRIFFITH: That was twelve. I went to work at 6:00 and got off at 6:00.
MALCOLM: Didnt have much time to spend with your family, did you.
GRIFFITH: Thats right.
MALCOLM: Well, you remember when, uh, Roosevelt started making changes and all.Do you remember where it went from a twelve hour day to a eight hour day?
MALCOLM: Well you know --
GRIFFITH: That was in the valley,
MALCOLM: -- right now, at the mill Im working at, we work eight hours a day.And theyre trying to make -- to get it back to working twelve hours a day.
GRIFFITH: Oh, my goodness.
MALCOLM: But the thing good about it is that we have a union, and the peoplehave to vote on it. And if they vote no, they -- the company wont be able to do it.
GRIFFITH: No, I won't -- I dont blame them.
MALCOLM: Thats one good thing about being --
GRIFFITH: I wouldnt either.
MALCOLM: Thats one good thing about having a union. Is that you --
GRIFFITH: Thats right.
MALCOLM: -- is that you got a say, what happens to you.
GRIFFITH: Thats right.
MALCOLM: Not much, sometimes, but you got a little bit of say.00:20:00
MALCOLM: But get back to, uh, what did you do? You know, the job you got whenyou had to go with the truck. What job did you get, and what were you -- what was your job when you worked there?
GRIFFITH: When I worked on, in the -- I worked in the winding room, when uh, Iwent -- I changed shifts. They didnt have them automatic spoolers. They didnt know what they was. I was the first woman to ever put up an end on the automatic spooler. And now, well, uh, you know them winders had a drum that you let the cone down on.
GRIFFITH: You had to tie the knot. Thats how come that knot on my hand,there. You had to tie the knot. Go down on the drum. But these automatic spoolers, you didnt. See, it had a traveler up on top, that picked up the thread. All you done was fill the pockets with thread and take the cheese off. 00:21:00They called them cheese. Big round wheels of thread.
GRIFFITH: You had to doff them off. I went to work, uh, on the winders one --on the night -- on the night line in Pepperell.
MALCOLM: Well, did you, uh, like it better after you got to be an eight hourday? Was it easier?
GRIFFITH: Oh, yeah! Oh, yeah. You would, too.
MALCOLM: I like it now, eight hours. I dont want to have to go to 12 hours.
GRIFFITH: Well, you go 12 hours and you give completely out.
GEORGE STONEY: Ask her what it was like. Heat, uh, working conditions, uh, restrooms, all of that.
MALCOLM: When uh, when you was working in the mill, uh, you know, like probablynot later on but when you first started working, you know. The times were talking about now. Was it hot, or too hot to work, or was there rest rooms? You know, were they nice, or you know -- what was the working conditions --
GRIFFITH: Oh, yeah. The, the -- the rest rooms was nice. They had a colored00:22:00man clean them up.
MALCOLM: Was it, uh, hot in the mill?
GRIFFITH: Oh, yeah. It was awful hot.
MALCOLM: Was it? Was it -- it was hard to work?
GRIFFITH: But they raise the windows, you know, and let the air it, itwouldnt be so hot.
MALCOLM: Uh, well -- during the summertime, I dont imagine the windows helpedtoo much, did they?
GRIFFITH: No, it didnt.
MALCOLM: You know, we got -- now, we all, most of the mills got airconditioning, now. Its not as hot in there.
GRIFFITH: Yes, sir.
MALCOLM: I dont know if its so much for the people, or its so much thattheir machines cant be hot no more, because now they got all them computers and all. Thats --
GRIFFITH: I worked down there in that Pepperell when the, when the water woulddrip off of my coattail.
MALCOLM: Oh, that was hot.
GRIFFITH: Thats right.
MALCOLM: Uh, so after you got on the eight hour days, did you see any morechanges that helped you all out any, you know? Like maybe better pay, or like you said, the social security?
GRIFFITH: Oh yeah, yeah.
MALCOLM: What kind -- after the, uh, you got on the eight hour day, you know, we00:23:00was talking about when you first went to work, you made $2.50 a week. Did it -- was it considerable improvement on your --
GRIFFITH: Well, no. Oh, they started that before this. They started thatbefore you know, uh, let me see. Who was the president then? Who was the president back in 29?
MALCOLM: Was it Hoover?
GRIFFITH: No, no... Wait a minute. Yes it was. Yeah, Hoover was the presidentin 29. But I was thinking, 25...
MALCOLM: But uh, say the pay started getting a little bit better, even --
GRIFFITH: Oh, yeah. The -- when I was making $2.50 a week, then the pay check00:24:00raised up. They paid us $9 a week.
MALCOLM: But -- but --
GRIFFITH: But it was still in the pay slip. They didnt write no checks. Youhad to wear that number, and if you didnt call that number, you wouldnt get your paycheck.
MALCOLM: If, uh, for some reason you lost your number or something, what did youhave to do, then? I mean, how --
GRIFFITH: Well, theyd go back to the office and take it back to the office,and trace it up.
MALCOLM: But you would eventually get your money?
GRIFFITH: Oh, yeah. Yeah, Mr. Jim -- Jim Span was our paymaster.
MALCOLM: Uh --
GEORGE STONEY: Ask about any attempts at union.
MALCOLM: Do you remember any, uh, anybody trying to attempt to, uh, get a unionanywhere you worked at? I know one place in particular, they tried to -- where they did get a union. Where I work at now, and you used to work there, too.
MALCOLM: Lets -- lets just move kind of in the future a little bit to whenyou went to work for Opelika Manufacturing. Where I work at right now. What 00:25:00year was it, and how were things, and did you like it?
GRIFFITH: Well, we would move up, then. You mean, uh -- I went to work in theOpelika Mill 47, 48 -- 48, when me and Mr. Griffith was married. And 47. And I was still working in Pepperell. Well, lets see. My mama died in 56. And I was working in Opelika Mill then.
MALCOLM: Well -- save that track, but I think really, I got off track. Beforethat, do you remember anybody trying to get a union in the -- any plants you worked before that?
MALCOLM: You dont?
GRIFFITH: No, I dont.
MALCOLM: OK, now lets move up to Opelika. It was 1948 when you went to work there?
GRIFFITH: Fifty six, fifty seven...00:26:00
MALCOLM: Does -- does that, Ma, does that dates really, not important.Well just say late, late 1940s.
MALCOLM: OK, what -- uh, what kind of products were they doing then? I know onetime you told me it wasnt a weaving operation then.
GRIFFITH: It was just a thread mill.
MALCOLM: Just a thread mill. What was -- what was your first job there?
GRIFFITH: My first job?
MALCOLM: At the Opelika plant.
GRIFFITH: Down here?
MALCOLM: Yes, maam.
GRIFFITH: I was spooling, and then he took me off that and put me tore-spooling. And then, uh, I went from that to the spinning room, and uh, then I went from that to the winding room. And uh, I halved off twisters.
GEORGE STONEY: OK. Lets hold it just a moment.
GRIFFITH: This was -- tell me, I'd go with her a show her.
MALCOLM: You all want to --
JAMIE STONEY: No, were just on you.
MALCOLM: Oh, OK. You want her -- just talk to --
GRIFFITH: The ice is upstairs, honey.00:27:00
HELFLAND: I found it, maam.
GRIFFITH: In a little blue tray. And the glasses. If you dont want to drinkout of them in the dish drainer, well, you can get you another glass.
JAMIE STONEY: Smile.
MALCOLM: Not a very good actor. (laughs)
GRIFFITH: Honey, set that gallon of milk in the refrigerator for me. A littleboy set it out for the ice to melt.
MALCOLM: Thats nervous energy.
GRIFFITH: Where did Randy go?
MALCOLM: I think hes still out on the porch.
GEORGE STONEY Hes outside. Hes with the dog.
GRIFFITH: Thats OK.
(break in audio)
MALCOLM: Ma, what I want to ask you about, you know, we was talking about therewasnt no unions back when you worked in the mill --
GRIFFITH: No, there wasnt.
MALCOLM: What did you all do when, uh, say like if your supervisor was coming toyou and said, Well, youre not running your job. Or he was harassing 00:28:00you, and you [knowed?] you was running your job. How did yall deal with problems that arise? You know, what -- what kind of steps did you all take to deal with them problems?
GRIFFITH: Well, uh, some of them talked pretty rough, and I talked pretty roughback to them. I said, Now, Im doing the best I can. And they said, Well, maybe your can aint big enough. I said, Well, you get me one thats bigger. I talk back to them. I didnt let them run over me.
MALCOLM: Well you know, now, with, with our union, say like -- say like, mysupervisor come up, told me, Well, youre not running your job good enough. And Im going to write -- see, what they do now is they write you up a disciplinary warning, and if you get four of them, they fire you. Well, what we got now, is with the union, is something called a grievance procedure, and you get to go meet with your -- you remember what a, they called them overseers, then.
MALCOLM: Now we call them department heads.
MALCOLM: You -- we, us, me -- say, me and a shop steward, which is like a, a00:29:00lawyer -- hes not a lawyer, but hes like -- hes the --
GRIFFITH: Yeah, shop steward. I know what youre talking about.
MALCOLM: He -- with us, having a union, we can go talk to him, and if it --thats called a first step. And if we didnt get it settled in the first step then wed go meet with our personnel manager.
MALCOLM: And we had all these different steps, and then we got a thing calledarbitration. And thats one of the -- thats one of the advantages of having a union. And I was just wondering, you know, say like -- you know, say like, you said you told your supervisor off and it still didnt do any good. Did you have anything else you could do to try to get him off your back, you know? Say like, you done told him off and hes still on your back. I mean, did you have anything else -- could you go to your, your overseer and talk to him about it, or --
GEORGE STONEY: Lets try that --