Grady Kilgro, Eula McGill, and Burns Cox Interviews

GEORGE STONEY: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Tell us about, uh, Roosevelt.

GRADY KILGO: Roosevelt was a fine man. He was for the labor people, all together. Lots of people didn't know that man was in a wheelchair. He died in a wheelchair, I mean that and that, pun-- and that, uh, place there in Arkansas. But he was strictly for labor. [For chet?] uh, his [chest at the fur and their?] --

GEORGE STONEY: OK, now -- we're going to start over because, first place, what you're (break in video) about.

KILGO: Yeah. He was a fine man and he --

GEORGE STONEY: No, sorry, I want you to say Roosevelt was a --

KILGO: -- Roosevelt, he was a fine man, and he seen that labor got what he wanted them to have. And when he put the NRA in, that was one of the greatest 00:01:00things ever had. And another thing, he put Social Security in, was another thing. Social Security went in 1937. But the last part of '36, they held six months social security back. And then they put it all out, went and gave it to the people. I got the first card put out. And uh, so he helped the people, anything the people needed, he got it for them. When he was -- (crash in background; laughter)

GEORGE STONEY: Good catch, Jamie.

CREW: Turn it off.

CREW: Whenever.

STONEY: OK, tell me about Roosevelt.

KILGO: He was a, he was a wonderful man --

GEORGE STONEY: Just, I want you to use Roosevelt when you --

KILGO: -- Roosevelt was a wonderful man, I tell you, he, he helped the labor, he done everything there for the people that he could help. And he fixed it so they could get insurance and stuff like that. He was a, a powerful man. He 00:02:00uh, he thought everything ought to be done right, which he done everything right. And he was a -- he stayed in office, he wasn't out ripping and running around Europe (inaudible) office. Seeing about what was going on in the world instead of running around somewhere else.

GEORGE STONEY: Tell about his being in a wheelchair.

KILGO: Yeah, he was in a wheelchair, he had polio. He's a, that's what, what they got for the people. Insurance and stuff for polio. That's what that started from.

JANET IRONS: What happened, uh, in Gadsden when he died?

KILGO: Oh just everybody, it just like a big funeral. People just, they loved him and everything else and he just, they just thought him the greatest there was. And they shut the mill down and, oh about a half shift of it, it was shut 00:03:00down and people was really interested in him and Roosevelt and the way he had done and the way he run the country and everything. Wonderful person.

GEORGE STONEY: But, at the end of the strike, he said that the mills would not discriminate against strikers, and yet, they did.

KILGO: Well, they could at some, you know, some extent, that part did, uh, the difference in my opinion, your opinion, (laughter; inaudible) that's the way I look at it. But, it's like I said, [they want for a man, make it for him?]. Get it over with. And nothing sad about it right there. We had, uh, at the time, we had a couple overseers beat up down there. They weren't no 00:04:00overseers, bosses. They -- he had done a good bit of rough talk to people in their apartment. They just [told?] him down there on Wall Street, one of them, just beat the devil out of him. Nobody knows nothing about it, nobody said nothing about. He did it and nobody else. Because it was some union people who done it, too. They really beat him up pretty bad. But, he never did file no charges or nothing. Yeah. So, when the mill went back, he worked a little while and he quit.

GEORGE STONEY: I understand that there was a good bit of sexual harassment of women in the mills.

KILGO: Oh yeah, there was. These overeseers would and go tell these girls that [they harmed?] that if you don't go out with me, you don't have any job. It's [too far?] (inaudible) right there. One of them was [Wally Davidson?] and the other was [Harv Crowder?]. Wally Davidson was the worst that it'd 00:05:00ever had been.

IRONS: How'd he get fired?

KILGO: Well, he, he -- they put a girl in there and he just went to her and told her, "If you don't go out with me, you don't have any job." But she wouldn't tell it. But her boyfriend did. And he told them, said, "(inaudible) and this won't work" so he just went to [Mr. Moody?] and them and told them what happened. They fired him and put the girl back to work.

IRONS: When was that? Do you remember when that was?

KILGO: Well, it was, uh, uh, a later part of it, when the [Ashton strike had do it?] and uh, they would do -- they one man spinning room, his wife, uh, at this (inaudible) tried him but uh, told his wife, said, "You can go out with me or I'll have to fire you." So, her husband was in the union and his name was [Lloyd Holiday?]. He was, he was in the union. So she wouldn't tell it. 00:06:00And she told him what happened. He said, "We'll fix that up." So he just went out and called a meeting with them. And he told them what had happened. So, they told (inaudible), said, "We going to give you one notice and that's it. Said if you bother any more of these women or say anything else to 'em, said, you fired. But they didn't do Wally Davidson in that way, they fired Wally Davidson right there. And because he had, had a lot of girls messed up there that wasn't supposed to be in that. He just -- he wanted the girls, he didn't want their job, he didn't want them to work, stuff like that. It was pretty rough on some of them girls who went in there. It was a shame they didn't take him out and shoot him, that's exactly what they ought to have done, too, took him out and shoot him. Well (inaudible). But, things like that happened in places like this.

GEORGE STONEY: Do you think that's one of the reasons why all of these women came out for the union?

KILGO: Yeah. They wanted protection. And, when we got the union, they got the protection, too. But they didn't have it before we got a union. Just like I said, went up there and talked to them like (inaudible) and things like that. But, I'll tell you, it was rough, just like I say, I'm glad I can remember part of it, but, uh, it goes way back, uh, 40, 50, 60 years. A whole lot different.

IRONS: How does it feel to make you -- for you to remember the 1933, 1934 -- that experience?

KILGO: Well, it, it makes me feel good that I can remember that well. Just things that I want to remember, things I like to talk about, I can go out and talk to people about some of this stuff, what I done back then. They tell me, 00:08:00well they wouldn't do it, stuff like that, but they did. They had to. We did. Now, you go out here, holler a man, he wants $25 or $30 an hour to do something. I went out there and worked for 30 cents an hour. Picked cotton for a quarter a hundred (inaudible).

IRONS: How do you feel about having gone through that experience, that strike and the union and all?

KILGO: You know, it really feels good. Can go back and say that. At that time, it didn't feel so good. But now, it does. That I could live to go through such a thing. And can remember part of it.

STONEY: OK, let's go over to (inaudible).

IRONS: [Aubrey Heath?]. [J.E. Barfield?].

KILGO: Aubrey Heath. J.E. Barfield. I don't remem-- I don't remember them.

IRONS: Debbie--

KILGO: Aubrey Heath, yeah. I remember him. He worked the spinning room.

IRONS: [W.F. Howard?].

KILGO: I don't know him.

IRONS: [Jessie Smith?]. [Lola Wright?].

KILGO: I don't know them.

IRONS: [Isis Sprinkle?]. Jess--

KILGO: They must worked there before my time, I guess.

IRONS: [Andy Smith?].

KILGO: Yeah, that Andy Smith, I remember when they fired him.

IRONS: [Patton Turner?].

KILGO: I don't know him.

IRONS: [Floyd England?].

KILGO: I don't know.

IRONS: [Mr. Thompson?], foreman of the weave room, said it wasn't his responsibility that he wasn't allowed to replace workers who had struck.

KILGO: Yeah.

IRONS: [Lloyd Cook?]. [Molly Harper?]. [Evelyn Jet?]. [Minnie Belle Harrison?]. [George Seals?]. [Meg Gibson?]. [Cynthia Berry?].

KILGO: That George Seals, think I remember a little about him, not too much.

IRONS: [Laura Hall?] -- I'm sorry?

KILGO: Go ahead.

IRONS: Laura Hall. Refused to replace on former job prior to strike. Now only 00:10:00working as spare, only worked five nights since strike was settled.

KILGO: Yeah, they do that. Lay you off, let you stay off awhile, then put you back on another job, if you didn't like that, they'd put you on another one (laughter) it, uh, she was a weave shop woman.

IRONS: [James Boyd?].

KILGO: I don't remember him.

IRONS: Charles, [Charles Nelson?]. [Ruby Wear?]. F.M.--

KILGO: Ruby Wear, that was Clyde's wife.

IRONS: Was it?

KILGO: I think so, yes. That was her name, Ruby Wear.

IRONS: [F.M. Addison?].

KILGO: [F.M. Addison?] was fired from a carpenter bunch there. He was a carpenter there. He was, he was fired from there. His dad was old (inaudible), I mean, he had been to the -- no, his daddy was the one that was fired, that's right, because a fellow Rodgers take his job on, on the fore, there was a foreman there, in the yard. [Adams?] was a, he was a, he was a foreman, and 00:11:00they fired him and gave that job to Rodgers.

IRONS: [Cleve Campbell?].

KILGO: I don't know him.

IRONS: [Claude Stallings?]. [Homer Atkins?].

KILGO: Yeah, they fired him but they hired him back years later, I don't know what he was fired for or nothing, but it must have been something about the union they fired him for, I don't know. But, anyhow, they fired him, but they did hire him back.

IRONS: [Oliver Johnson?]. Henry Bag--

KILGO: Yeah, I know Oliver Johnson. He was tied up in that, he didn't get fired or anything, but he uh, he was laid off for a while.

IRONS: [C.J. Pain. [Joe Lipskun?]. [Edna Cannon?]. [Carl Ballard?]. [Nyome White?]. [Charlie Steepleton?].

KILGO: Charlie Steepleton, he has a, he was a fixer in the spinning room. 00:12:00He's one of them bossy guys, they put him back to work.

IRONS: Says here he was fired.

KILGO: Mm-hmm, he was, but they put him back to work.

IRONS: I see. [Louise Walker?]. [Jimmie Wycoff?].

KILGO: Jimmie Wycoff was fired because he wouldn't do what they wanted him to do. He's a spinning room man. They wanted him to run a job and he told them no. He didn't care whether he worked or not, he had 15 kids and his wife worked and he (laughter).

IRONS: Well that's, uh, let's see --

KILGO: He was the biggest [singer?].

IRONS: [H.C. Busby?].

KILGO: Uh, yeah I know who that is, too. That man died a long time ago. He got run off from up there too, he wouldn't do what they wanted him to do, either.

STONEY: I think we have enough.

IRONS: Yeah.

KILGO: He was a smart-mouthed man, that Busby was. He -- (audio cut out)

JAMIE STONEY: Rolling OK. This is room tone.

M: Room tone, this is, uh, this is the work for the interview that comes right before this.

JAMIE STONEY: OK, I guess I'm good.

GEORGE STONEY: OK.

(loud engine starts)

KILGO: This is part of the (inaudible; overlapping sounds) this car is from that (inaudible; overlapping sounds). They can make money on it (inaudible; overlapping sounds). They (inaudible; overlapping sounds).

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah. (inaudible; overlapping sounds).

KILGO: (inaudible; overlapping sounds) a long time.

(inaudible; overlapping sounds).

KILGO: Ah! There we are.

GEORGE STONEY: Why'd you put the gold, the foil on it?

KILGO: We, we used it for a door stop.

GEORGE STONEY: You know where it came out of?

KILGO: Yeah, it came out of the main part of the building up there. (inaudible; overlapping sounds.) Just an old brick, I mean an old (inaudible).

GEORGE STONEY: How did you pay for it?

KILGO: Quarters.

GEORGE STONEY: Quarter?

KILGO: (inaudible) OK.

JAMIE STONEY: So what part of the mill did it come out of?

KILGO: Come out of the main part of the mill.

GEORGE STONEY: Why do you keep it?

KILGO: I just want to keep things (laughter). Why she worked for a door stop so I just took it went in there when we moved, I put it in the car and I knew to take it in.

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah (inaudible). OK.

(break in video)

IRONS: -- ground rules, OK? Um, we want to generate a conversation among all of you, we want you to be talking to each other and talking to me and talking to George. At the same time, try not to interrupt each other too much so that we give everybody a chance --

CREW: This will be pretty hard (overlapping dialogue; inaudible.)

IRONS: (laughter) Now that's going to be pretty hard for you (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).

GEORGE STONEY: First question, go.

IRONS: First thing I want you to do is tell me why you think Gadsden is a special place. What is there about Gadsden that's, uh, people should know about in order to understand the union here. I made you think.

EULA MCGILL: Now, or? I don't know how it got started, but I --

HELFAND: Back then.

MCGILL: I can, uh, I back, as far back as I can remember in Gadsden, there's always been a strong union feeling here. Now, we came here, moved here in, oh, I don't know what year it was, I was five years old, but that's just probably 1916 I guess it was, and then the World War I came about. And I remember at that time there was a lot of unions here, in Gadsden. And uh, the mill, the Dwight Mills got organized and went out on strike. And there several small pipe shops and the car works, built, built cars over there, they were organized. And they had a big labor day, a lot of unions, uh, had, had contracts and [Hoser Mill?] there was a rare, uh, uh, overall factory over there in, in East Birmingham. East, uh, Gadsden, that, uh, had a union, uh, in it. And, uh, oh --

IRONS: Why don't we move to move to [Burns?]. Want to say something about what makes Gadsden special?

BURNS COX: Well, Gadsden's special to me because I was born and raised here. And I've saw this town drove to what it is today. I know what it was way before then and I can say, backing up the union and all that (inaudible) I was participated in the first union. Not the first one because I wasn't old enough, but 6 years old in 1918. But I did have a fixing in the second union, the Dixie Federation of Labor. And, uh, had to -- we lost it and went over while we still -- went ahead and continued on with our union activity here until we got a chance to get back into the union. And then we formed the union, which stood up.

IRONS: Talk to me about why that '34 strike made a difference in Gadsden's history and the history of the union at Dwight Mills. Why was that strike important?

COX: It was, it was impo-- it was, uh, good because people thought we'd lose, 00:20:00see? We were on the losing side of the strike. In 1934, the rubber plant and all them had done have their troubles, see? They had troubles, it was hard to get anything into Gadsden then at all. Because they went through so much, much strikes (inaudible) strikes, but I mean they went through so much (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).

KILGO: They so much--

M: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) in a good year.

M: Yeah. Many people beat up.

MCGILL: Gulf State Steel also had to hire, uh, hired guards that, for, to, to defeat you-- [Mike Self?] was the leader of them.

COX: Yep.

MCGILL: My dad knew him, he, he, uh, was the leader of the group at Gulf State that was, what we call the industrial spies is what we later called them.

IRONS: So Gadsden was the home of three different industries: rubber, steel, and textiles?

COX: And, uh, automobiles.

IRONS: OK we need somebody to say that.

MCGILL: Well rubber came here in the late '20s. Is when the rubber plant, that's when, that's when Goodyear started --

COX: Goodyear started up in 1927, ain't that right?

MCGILL: Uh, huh. Gulf State Steel had been here a long time, I don't know when it was established.

COX: It was established when I was a kid. Before I was born. Way before I was born.

MCGILL: It was locally owned until it was bought out by the United Steel Company. Uh, United States Steel. It was a local-owned steel plant, wasn't it?

COX: Just like the old cotton mill up here was. It was owned by a firm in Chicopee, Massachusetts, until the Cones took it over in the '50s. It originally was Dwight Manufacturing Company and it stayed under Dwight, originated and it was, it was bought out of Chicopee, Massachusetts, until they, Cone took it over, then it went to the Cone chain of mills.

IRONS: So all of these industries were owned by people from out of town? Is that true?

MCGILL: I think originally they were established by local people and with local money.

COX: Some of it was, some of it, some of the mills was local. Like Ben Cone.

IRONS: Um, would you sing that song for us, Eula? The one that, where you desc-- "Hey boss man, you're not so mean, you're just tall."

MCGILL: Oh I don't know it all.

IRONS: Just that little piece of it. (laughter)

MCGILL: I don't know it, it says, it's a old song that they, I forget how sang it, but a while ago I was down at the steel workers' union hall talking to a group of the old timers and this guy came in with this grandson and he sa-- somebody says, "Who is he?" And he says, "He's the boss. And I be here to sing an old song to this child." And he was tickled and he laughed. (sings) Hey boss man, won't you hear me when I call, you're not so mean, you're just tall, that's all. (laughter)

IRONS: That's a good song. Tell me about Sheriff [Leaf?].

COX: He wasn't no good. (laughter) I hate to, I hate to say it about the dead and gone, but he's a man who cause all the trouble when this town was trying to be organized, he was sheriff at that time. He hired hoods and everything else, rolled them in here from other states to fight these workers trying to 00:23:00organize and all. He even took care of that organizer that got beat up right there on the courthouse doorstep, nearly killed (inaudible).

KILGO: Yeah.

MCGILL: Sherman (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). Yeah.

KILGO: Now he's the one that pulled them in off the railroad up there that day. Just lay him down in front of the train (inaudible.)

COX: He tried to, but he never did get him off.

KILGO: No, he never did get him off.

IRONS: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).

KILGO: (inaudible) on their own.

IRONS: Why --

KILGO: He tried it, he told him it, he threatened them and everything else and it did no good.

IRONS: And now --

MCGILL: Well all the powers that be was -- the company was calling the shots. Steel plant and Dwight and Goodyear Tire and Rubber, especially Goodyear Tire and Rubber Company. I think they was about this vicious, the most vicious group in here. Uh, they hired, they actually hired people working the plant for the specific purpose of listening. And they beat 'em up in the parking lot.

COX: Yeah, what, you're in the 19-- uh...

MCGILL: (inaudible) come out to work.

KILGO: Old John Miller is the one who got beat up so bad. Down there on Wall Street one time putting in that sewage line down there and they called him out there to that place and beat the dickens out of him.

IRONS: Why did they beat him up?

MCGILL: Because (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) of the union. (laughter)

HELFAND: Just like that?

MCGILL: They had their --

COX: Well he --

KILGO: Just like I said this morning, he was rough on his [hip?] All of them was, they were was rough on the hip and he got what he deserved.

MCGILL: Oh you talking about he was the union man.

KILGO: No, he was the boss there.

MCGILL: Oh I was talking about the, these, uh, the people the company had hired working in the plant to spy.

COX: Yeah.

MCGILL: And then here somebody's talking in favor of the union and after work they'd catch him (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) at the uh, the uh, in the parking lot over at the, at the rubber plant.

COX: You know Eula back in there when the steel was trying to organize and all like that, you know the company had hired thugs, and they marched their workers then over there and they killed him in that darn plant over there and guards over them and wasn't that nobody in nobody out for weeks and weeks and weeks.

IRONS: Wow.

COX: They held them under guard.

HELFAND: Tell me what happened to Sheriff Leaf once the union got established against him?

COX: Well he was out before it ever got established.

MCGILL: I guess he got too old to be a sheriff.

COX: Yeah, he was too old.

MCGILL: He was the sheriff when I was a kid.

KILGO: Yep, I think he was just voted out on the last term when he beat. Wasn't he voted out on the last term [that he didn't have?] to run or anything.

COX: We had the sheriff before we got the, what's his name, uh, the one that was so good to us, Grady. Way down the river. I know his name, I can think of it but I can't think of it.

KILGO: I can't think of his name either.

IRONS: I thought you all told me that once the union came in, you got a sheriff who was much more behind the labor?

COX: We did.

IRONS: Can you describe that?

COX: Well, he, he, he, he, he'd give us anything we wanted. It's the company that would go over there and tell the sheriff department, "Send some people over there." And they'd look the other way and they wouldn't come over. They wouldn't messing around us, because we had a union man in there, it was always the sheriff's department. And the company go over there and 00:26:00back, "get somebody over there, we're having trouble." We'll (inaudible) waited a while, waited a while and they never did come.

IRONS: That's a real difference from, uh...

COX: From the other.

IRONS: Yeah.

COX: Letting a man stand there and get beat up on the sheriff's doorsteps.

IRONS: Yeah. Let me switch the subject a little bit and ask you to talk about this state council. Back in 1934, there was some kind of an organization, uh, of all the textile workers' unions in Alabama. What was that -- what was that all about?

MCGILL: The State Council of Textile Workers was what it was called.

HELFAND: And did you all go to any of those meetings?

MCGILL: Yeah.

COX: I went to one or two of them down there at Birmingham.

MCGILL: I don't think we have a lot left here, you know, before I got fired, but, I, I, there, we had several --

COX: Several meetings in Birmingham.

MCGILL: We had a [portable?] organization. But I just imagined, just thinking about it, just thinking, I imagined back then, you know, we had to pay union dues and we could hardly do it. We didn't have money to go like we 00:27:00(overlapping dialogue; inaudible).

KILGO: How much was your union dues, do you remember now?

COX: Started out twenty five cents a week and finally got up to a dollar and a quarter (overlapping dialogue; inaudible.)

MCGILL: A week?

COX: Yeah

MCGILL: Well, we paid a dollar to join and twenty-five cents a week for years. See, with the union didn't have no money, we had to [care?] about our own expenses and uh, it -- we had, didn't have much money to go do with.

COX: (inaudible).

MCGILL: But people couldn't afford to pay.

COX: Well, like us (inaudible) in the first track in '34, we didn't have nothing. Nobody didn't get nothing. No work.

MCGILL: I got a dime.

COX: Nobody didn't give nobody nothing.

MCGILL: Give me some (inaudible.)

COX: And hey we got our union man up here. Had the first strike with the Cones, we knew we had to have something, because at that time, (inaudible) the union took care of us. The union [owed it back?]. They took care of us.

MCGILL: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) strike fund, begin together a strike fund, you know, put so much money aside for a strike. A defense fund, we called it.

IRONS: I want you to --

MCGILL: To help --

IRONS: -- I want you to go back to '34, when the State Textile Council was formed. Seems to me that that's the first time that workers from across the state ever joined together. Tell me what it was like to go to a meeting and have that feeling.

COX: It was an organization set up and it was trying to (inaudible). He know it as well as I do. Trying to organize all the textile workers in the south!

MCGILL: It was comparable to having these (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) pick out--More or less, certain shops and organizations pick out and another [organized shop?] they'd take responsible to go see if they can get those people with the union. That's what they call the flying sqaudrons. That's right. We picked out them in those mills, see, in the old mill I worked at, because we were pretty well 100%. Because the people in tha-- in the mill I worked, I often told you, the people I worked with in the (inaudible) mill was like the hobo mill. People didn't care, didn't care what anything nothing they didn't have nothing, didn't care whether they worked or not, just tell you the truth. Uh, most of them. And uh, they were brazen. And, unlike the people over them in them mills for the [Commerce?]. That's the biggest 00:29:00change in Alabama, the [Commerce Mills?]. And they had uh, internal policy and, and tried to -- they -- and by the way, today, they done call their, their, help, employees, their associates. Associates. (laughter) They're not workers, they're not employees, they're associates.

COX: That's (inaudible) we lost to a union strike in '34 and then the company come along and created, what you remember? You remember what they created?

IRONS: Tell us.

COX: Dwight Employees' Association.

MCGILL: Oh, oh yeah!

KILGO: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).

COX: That was the company I was telling about this morning.

KILGO: Company union.

MCGILL: Yeah.

IRONS: Yeah.

MCGILL: Well we didn't have a (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).

COX: They wanted the four of us to join it.

IRONS: Yeah. Yeah.

MCGILL: The steel plants in, in, in, in, in Birmi-- in Birmingham had that, too. They had a company union, so-called, they called it an independent.

IRONS: Tell me one more time --

JAMIE STONEY: Reload. (inaudible)

CREW: No, not that tape.