Hilburn M. Garrett and Barbara Ellis Interview 3

 JUDITH HELFAND: Mr. Kilgrove, because he joined, and Mr. Cox, because he joined, and Laura Hull-Beard, because she was able --

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HILBURN GARRETT: After we got our unions going good.

HELFAND: What were you saying, after what?

GARRETT: After we got our unions going good good, while we in the union started a strike fund. Well, we got that built up to several thousand dollars. Well, I -- head of the union is New York, because -- where the head office was. They got scared that we mi-- we might just form a national union down there, pull out from [them up there?]. That's what they were scared of. Um, we had a strike, 00:01:00and well, Burns Cox, a bunch of them, all, they -- they didn't expect the whole company to feed us like that, fed us once before. But see, we had this big strike fund for that purpose, because we expected the head of the union to come in and open up a commissary where we could get food to -- and they rebelled on us. They called Burns Cox, he was -- got to be an officer of the local union, him and a bunch of the others, they called him to a meeting, over to a hotel, over a [Holiday Host?] motel. And uh, that's what they -- and I told Burns and them when they left for [us?], "When you come back, you're going 00:02:00find out that you're going to have to use our strike fund to feed our people with. Um, now you go over there, that's what you go find out, and get over there." Well, they -- oh no, no, no, he wouldn't have it that way. (inaudible) That's what the head of the union told him. He says, "Oh, y'all got that big strike fund." See, and they was afraid that we was going to form our own headquarters down here in the South, leave them out of it. They told them that you go out and use that strike money, if you expect to eat, we're not going to feed you.

GEORGE STONEY: When did -- tell us about getting your first contract.

GARRETT: I wasn't in all that. (inaudible) contract negotiation. I sat in one time, because I was just secretary of the local, on the negotiating committee, but they let me sit in one time, and they was holding out for a closed shop, the union did. Well, our general manager told me he would -- he would die before he'd agree to a union shop. Well, I called our committee outside and told them, I said, now he's -- he's telling you the truth about that. He's done told you that he'll die before he would agree to a closed shop. I says, at that time they had it every year at the end of the -- the end of the contract, if you wanted to come out of the union, you could get out. 00:04:00Well, a lot of them got out. But bless God, before they was out three months, they was back down union, just begging to get back in the union, because their bosses just done as they please, they didn't -- because they -- they know they pulled out, they didn't help protect the union. Well labor, they got some real dirty treatments from their bosses. Because the bosses know that the union wouldn't protect them. So they'd treat them rough. And (inaudible) they'd come back begging to get back in the union.

GEORGE STONEY: Do you want to -- maybe we should ask you about Miss Beard.

HELFAND: OK. We're going to stop a second.

GEORGE STONEY: Could you say that again?

GARRETT: I said that most of them had to go somewhere else to find work. They 00:05:00didn't put no gang of them back to work that was involved in the '34 strike.

GEORGE STONEY: Were there people in your uh, in -- in your division who were in the '34 strike?

GARRETT: Huh?

GEORGE STONEY: The people in -- where you worked, in the card room?

GARRETT: Oh yeah, they -- lots of them.

HELFAND: Can you --

GARRETT: They run a man off, before we got our union started, they finally run him off, because he was a good man, me and him worked together, and uh, they run him off, he never did get back in there. For as old as he was, I don't guess he much cared.

GEORGE STONEY: When did you first start working in the mills? How old were you?

GARRETT: Oh, I just got married. Uh, I -- I got married when I was 19, I was about 20 years old when I went to work at Dwight the first time. That's where uh, my wife's people used to live. Worked in the mill here, and they moved to Piedmont, went to work there. That's where I got employment with my wife, was in Piedmont.

GEORGE STONEY: So you followed her up there?

GARRETT: No, I lived in -- I was born and raised in Callahan County.

GEORGE STONEY: Well, tell us what it was like when you first started working in the mills.

GARRETT: Well, I first started in Jacksonville Cotton Mill, that's where I learned to do what little I could do. Worked there till it shut down, and, uh, my daddy, uh --

GEORGE STONEY: All right, let's start again. Sorry, let's start again, and 00:07:00tell me how old you were, and how much education you had, and then when you started working in Jackson.

GARRETT: I just had a sixth grade education. Because that was as high as you could go. At one time they had a -- it was just a big church and that school there, it was a church and school, too. And [we had a whole thing just set up?]. And there was no such thing as a desk back then. Of course, they got desks, because [the day I quit?] school, because I (inaudible) with them now. And my daddy was one of the trustees of the school, as well as deacon in the church. And I hope what this --

CREW: I'm sorry, we're going to have to stop here. (break in video)

HELFAND: Um, we want to take that cup.

GEORGE STONEY: All right. Could you tell us -- could you tell us about uh, how you organized in the mill village?

GARRETT: Well, we just visited people's houses. Talked with them. Anyway we could get them in the union, that's what we was out for.

GEORGE STONEY: What about the literature?

GARRETT: Huh?

GEORGE STONEY: I want you to tell that story that you told us about distributing literature.

GARRETT: Oh, we -- me and uh, Ernest Clay, he was a big union man, didn't (inaudible) officer part, but he really believed in the union. And get out and work outside, and help talk people into joining, and uh, [he lived with -- took him?] union papers to our boss's house, on the boss's porch where they'd 00:09:00find them. Let them know that we was there for a purpose. I don't know what the bosses done with the papers, we didn't care, but we just know that they'd find them on their porch.

GEORGE STONEY: So tell us about the government election. The election for the union.

GARRETT: Oh, well they had the -- they set up a big booth out there.

GEORGE STONEY: Do you remember when this was?

GARRETT: Huh?

GEORGE STONEY: This was in 1942, wasn't it?

GARRETT: Something like, during wartime.

GEORGE STONEY: OK, could you say during wartime --

GARRETT: Yeah.

GEORGE STONEY: -- we had the first government election.

GARRETT: During wartime, uh, they had a big, oh, bandstand out there, and there 00:10:00was a big (inaudible) grassy lot, that's where we'd lay around before work time. And we done a lot of organizing sitting there, people come up, we talked to them about joining the union, long before we ever got one. And, uh, so I – that morning that, they was going to have the elections, and the company agreed that they could have it out there. And uh, make it easier for everybody, because it was right in the center of town, you know? And they agreed to it. Of course, the government forced them to agree to it. The labor board did. And that third shift crowd come out, and everybody come out that front gate. Of course that gate's on the back side, on the lower side, they could have went out, but they [was involved in it?] and they wanted to vote, and everybody come 00:11:00out, that it was just a sight to see that gang of people stringing across there, and gobs of second shift, first shift, people that wasn't working, they was out there seeing what happened. And when that third shift bunch come out there, the way they went in there and voted, that gave everybody courage enough to go in and vote. We were on the -- we might have had 50 people voted against the union. The rest of them voted for it.

GEORGE STONEY: Did you have a celebration?

GARRETT: Oh no.

GEORGE STONEY: Did you have a big party after that?

GARRETT: No.

GEORGE STONEY: OK, now let's move back to, you were telling us about what kind of education did you have, where did you grow up?

GARRETT: I growed up -- grew up in Callahan County. Sixth grade is as high as it went. At one time, before I got [there?], well -- well, they went to -- from the primary to the twelfth grade. But the time I got to sixth grade, that was as high as you could go, that's as high as I got to go. We had uh, had a school there. And uh, [Miss Mill Val?]. She used to be the principal at the school in Jackson Mill, and they opened up a (inaudible) school there. Uh, church and school were -- I was born and raised in. In the summertime, they put 00:13:00on that adult school, we had one old man who was 87 years old, would come to school.

GEORGE STONEY: Can you go back now and tell us where the school -- what kind of a school building you had, and what your father did, and what you did to help him?

GARRETT: Well, he was a farmer.

GEORGE STONEY: Uh, just say my father was a farmer.

GARRETT: My father was a farmer, and that's what -- I grew up on a farm, that's all I knowed, until I got married, and went to work in the cotton mill, went to work at the Jacksonville cotton mill. Learned how to work, run a few jobs. My dad-in-law led a (inaudible) -- they had worked at this mill at Dwight when they moved to Piedmont. And his family worked up there. That's where my 00:14:00wife worked when we got married.

GEORGE STONEY: How old were you then?

GARRETT: Oh, I was just -- I think I was 19.

GEORGE STONEY: And when were you born?

GARRETT: Born 1906.

GEORGE STONEY: How much did you make then, and what did you do?

GARRETT: Oh, we worked for little or nothing, you might say, at the cotton mill, back then. I worked at Dwight for 10 cents an hour. And I mean, you worked, too.

GEORGE STONEY: What did you do? What did you do for that 10 cents?

GARRETT: Well, I had different jobs, I run -- I could -- I was a sweeper, I was 00:15:00a oiler, I was drawing room cleaner, I had several different jobs, run the elevator.

GEORGE STONEY: OK. Judy?

HELFAND: Yeah. Um, I -- can we stop for a second?

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GEORGE STONEY: Sorry, sorry.

HELFAND: Can you start again?

GEORGE STONEY: All right.

GARRETT: I talked -- we talked -- a lot of people that had been involved in the strike naturally were scared to death. I don't guess I'd have had guts enough to -- if I'd have been involved in it. But my age then, I was young, (inaudible) stepped out like I did. If I got fired, I'd find something somewhere, I figured I would.

GEORGE STONEY: But you had several children then, didn't you?

GARRETT: Yeah, I had four kids. Because I married in '25, this was in the Forties. I'd had four kids.

GEORGE STONEY: Now Barbara, you've been listening to a lot of this. Could you tell us how you feel about hearing about this?

BARBARA ELLIS: Well, it really makes me feel proud of my dad, although I -- I knew he was a union man all my life, that he always said, with a union, you've got better uh, benefits, better chance at making something out of yourself with whatever job you undertake. And it makes me feel proud of him to know that he was -- fought for what he believed in, and kept on, and didn't give up. And uh, everybody says that I'm a fighter, I say, well I guess now I know where I got it from. (laughter) Took it from my dad.

GEORGE STONEY: Well, one of the things that puzzles us is that in many places we've been, including Newnan, people are afraid to talk about the union.

ELLIS: Mm-hmm.

GEORGE STONEY: We haven't found that true in Gadsden, why do you think that's true?

GARRETT: Well, (inaudible) rough and [lived the workers?] was just, was treated so rough that we had to get -- do something, either we worked to death or starved to death.

ELLIS: I think the union was good for Gadsden, really. That's what I think, it was good to Gadsden. A lot of people was hungry before.

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah.

ELLIS: Mm-hmm.

GARRETT: Uh-huh, I helped organize a steel plant. I helped organize Goodyear. I helped organize Sequoia. Of course, there wasn't much that I could do, but uh, I had -- I'd go around and talk to people, and talk them into -- maybe 00:18:00they had [well, union member?], talk them into joining the steel plant union. I had some good friends that was -- worked the steel plant, and they were doing everything they could to try to get a union. And that's the way they was -- the union was formed by getting around, talking to people you knew that you wasn't afraid of, you talked to them, talked them into joining the union.

GEORGE STONEY: Now do you think you could have done all that if there wasn't -- hadn't been a labor board to back you up?

GARRETT: Oh no. I know we couldn't, for they had to have the government backing. See, Roosevelt said that people had a right to join a union if they 00:19:00wanted, that's what they wanted, they had that right.

GEORGE STONEY: Now in the early days, in '34, Roosevelt said they had a right to join a union, and they got licked, and later on, when you formed a union, Roosevelt said they had a right to join a union, and you didn't get licked. What made the difference?

GARRETT: Well, they had -- we had the steel plant organized then. Goodyear was organized. And uh, that gave us strength. We had our friends who worked the steel plant, they would talk to people and get them interested in the union. You could get out here for the -- you could talk your head off, and it wouldn't do no good if people wasn't interested in it.

HELFAND: Can you stop this tape? So would you say that --

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GARRETT: When we started our union, why we had a lot of the steel workers would talk to the people about the union, say we got a union, we got [Ma?]. We got it organized now. Well that would give other -- the people that worked in the cotton mill said well, if the big company as Gulf State Steel is, if they had to accept a union, what is the reason -- why is the reason that Dwight won't have to? That's what they would put up to the people, you see? And talk them into signing cards.

GEORGE STONEY: I think that explains, to me, why you were able to do it here in 00:21:00Gadsden, and you couldn't do it in a place like Newnan.

GARRETT: And uh, I'll tell you another thing that helped us organize it. They didn't charge you no dues. We had cards, you signed that card, and they gave you a card to keep one for -- to work with. And uh, if we had asked people to pay their dues when they joined, well we never would have gotten them to do it. But we done it free of charge, it didn't cost you nothing until after we got organized. After we got organized, we -- we had a lot of people that paid their dues.

GEORGE STONEY: Did you have the check off here?

GARRETT: Yeah. We won that in the first contract we got with them.

GEORGE STONEY: What was the -- what was the happiest moment that you had when -- in -- in connection with the union?

GARRETT: When we got it organized.

GEORGE STONEY: I would think it was when you could walk in there and show them you weren't afraid.

GARRETT: Yeah.

GEORGE STONEY: How did the other workers look at you when you walked in there with your badge on -- on your cap?

GARRETT: Oh, they was amazed, a lot of them was. [There was more work in the?] first shift, he cleaned half of the drawing rollers, and I cleaned the other half on the second shift. And he'd -- you'd stay and work late. And uh, oh, he just had a fit about me starting that union. He says, "You're going to get run off." Uh, well, if I do, I'll be hunting something else. But he 00:23:00was scared. It was a long time before we ever got him into here. Because he fought in the other strike.

GEORGE STONEY: OK?

HELFAND: Yeah.

GEORGE STONEY: OK, hold it just a minute.

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GARRETT: Oh, I was working outside, I was involved in the union. But when I got my --

GEORGE STONEY: I'm sorry, could you start again? Say in '34, I went -- OK?

GARRETT: Thirty-four, I wasn't working in the mill, I was working outside, and uh, days I didn't have to work, well I'd go up, because I knew everybody that worked in the mill, used to work with them, and I'd go sit around the -- the gates, sit around and shoot the bull, play horseshoes, everything like that.

GEORGE STONEY: What did they do?

GARRETT: It was like (inaudible) when I went to work, when I finally got back over to the mill, why my boss come around and ask me, said uh, they hired me to run a set of [drawing?]. [And they had a slow man?] running that job, but as soon as I walked in, he put me on the job, the boss hadn't come around. He put me on the job, and he went back to his job running the [schlubber?], right across from him. He said, "Boy, I sure am glad to see you coming in, take this [joy?] job, because you can make more money on that other job. And less 00:25:00work, too." And so --

HELFAND: You s--

GARRETT: -- the boss come around then, the man I was going to work for, I was -- this job you want me to run (inaudible)? He said, "Well, I don't know what I want you to work on." He says, "I've got to find out something about your union business." I said, "Well (inaudible)," I says, (inaudible) -- I forget what sort of union he called it, it was one that I organized, [then run off?]. He called it his union. He said, "I want to know if you had anything." I said, (inaudible) you know as well as I did that I didn't work here then. I said, "I didn't have no business having nothing to do with it." I says, "I understand, I got my beliefs about the union the same as you have. Now you believe what you want to about it, and I'll believe what I 00:26:00want." (inaudible)

HELFAND: Was this boss working there when you started organizing? Was the same boss --

GARRETT: Oh yeah.

HELFAND: What was his response to what you were doing?

GARRETT: Oh --

HELFAND: Can you start with the same boss was working there, Harv was working there when I started organizing the CIO, start with that sentence and then go on with it from there.

GARRETT: Yeah, he --

HELFAND: Harv.

GARRETT: Harv [Crowder?] was the boss I was working for at that time, no, I take that back. I was working for the second shift boss, Sam [Vanderslick?]. And Sam [Vanderslick?] was a worker, he was in that '34 strike. But he still believed in the union. He just knowed they just got -- the company paid the 00:27:00organizers to leave town. Of course, they couldn't prove it. But they left all of the sudden, and just left them holding the bag there. And they had to go back to work, a lot of people got run off. A lot of the houses and everything else.

HELFAND: You were in the middle of telling us about this boss who was in the '34 strike when you were -- when you were starting to organize the CIO. You got a little sidetracked, so let's go back to the boss.

GARRETT: Oh, (inaudible)I went back to work in the mill, and he come around and ask me if -- what had I had -- I said, well Harv you know, I didn't work in the mill when all that was going on. I said, I didn't no business messing with it. I says, boy, I'll tell you right now, I believe in the unions. I 00:28:00says, I believe in it as -- as strong as you don't believe in it. I said, I can understand your feelings, because you work for the company. You make a little more money than I do. But I want to go -- make a better living the just the same as you do. And that's the only we could do it, by organizing the union. He just had to turn and walk off, and left me.

HELFAND: And this was your first day back on the job?

GARRETT: Oh yeah. A lot of times, before we ever started the union.

HELFAND: Now, were there any people from the '34 strike who said no, I want no part of this, leave me alone, get away?

GARRETT: Oh, a lot of people.

HELFAND: Talk about that.

GARRETT: A lot of people were scared, and they'd seen so many people get run off, thrown out of their houses, and they were scared. You couldn't blame them. I'd have been scared too, if I'd have been involved in that.

GEORGE STONEY: OK, I think we've got it.

HELFAND: OK. Do you have any more questions for Barbara? (inaudible)

GEORGE STONEY: Uh, yes. I want her, Barbara, to tell us about uh, being in the mill village, and uh, the -- remember you were telling about the -- being in your –

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ELLIS: The [projects?]?

GEORGE STONEY: Uh-huh.

ELLIS: Yeah. Uh, we lived in the mill village when I was just a little baby girl, two or three years old, but then we sort of moved out from there, and then in the '50s, when they built the [Emma Satson?] projects, that's -- we moved in there, and it was really a nice place, because almost everybody that lived there at that point worked for the cotton mills, so all of us kids were like one big family. And my dad, I was lucky, my dad worked nights. (laughter) Because 00:30:00we got to do a whole lot more, because all of the friends would come over to our house, because Daddy was hardly ever home during the night, and uh, we'd play records and get together and Mom was always right there with us, and um, but during the daytime when their dads was at work, my dad was upstairs asleep, and so we had to kind of be quiet during the daytime, but at night, we didn't care. (laughter) Mom was kind -- she just fell right in there with all of us kids. And uh, but it was different, having a dad that worked at night, it really was. And uh, he'd come home in the morning, he'd have all that lint all over his head and his face, and in his ears.

GARRETT: Well I wore (inaudible) told me, told these old people around here, don't know when it's going to be on television.