James Hoffman and Grady Kilgo Interviews

 JANET IRONS: I hope that they can do something to fix those. It kind of messed them up.

GEORGE STONEY: When you're ready.

CREW: Rolling.

IRONS: This is great, look it. Monday, September 3rd, 1934. "Thousands answer strike call," and that's the national strike, and here is labor parades throughout the city.

JAMES HOFFMAN: Yeah. This was very interesting to me, because on September 3rd, during the middle of the strike at Dwight Mill, it was interesting to me that labor had a parade down Broad Street in Gadsden, Alabama, the center of Gadsden, and according to this article, had a major parade of the trade unions, crafts unions, various AFL unions were represented in the parade, and it was a major event in Gadsden.

IRONS: I'd love to read this.

HOFFMAN: It's very interesting.

IRONS: "Nearly 5,000 men and women celebrated Labor Day by marching through the city this morning in one of the biggest parades that Gadsden has witnessed 00:01:00in some time. The close-packed ranks of labor filed down the main street in a column of fours. A few -- a few floats were in evidence, scattered throughout the column, but for the most part, the parade was made up of men and women marching. For 20 minutes, the procession ambled down Broad Street, turned south on Third Street, and marched down to --" What's that?

HOFFMAN: OK, that's --

IRONS: Morange?

HOFFMAN: Moragne Park.

IRONS: "-- Moragne Park, where the large gathering was addressed by Holt Ross, from the American Federation of Labor. Today was truly labor's day. Most of the stores were closed, and the ranks of the spectators were thinned by the parade itself, as many of the men and women who marched are ordinarily among the spectators.

HOFFMAN: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

IRONS: Sounds like quite an event.

HOFFMAN: Yeah, this was interesting. Uh, uh -- uh, this was very interesting to me, um, and it was, yeah, yeah.

IRONS: "Behind the band came the Dwight delegation, forming by far the biggest part of the parade. It stretched for two blocks, and the head of this delegation was already turning down Third Street when the rear had just reached 00:02:00Fifth Street."

HOFFMAN: Yeah.

IRONS: "Leading the Dwight Union was a float which depicted a woman spinning yarn from an antique spinning wheel." And then they talk about some other floats.

HOFFMAN: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Uh, this is a very interesting article again. Several -- several different unions were represented here, uh, not just Dwight. It says they had the largest delegation, uh, but, uh, this was a -- a major event of the strike locally.

IRONS: Does this make sense to you given what the anti-union feelings were at the time, that they would have this kind of parade?

HOFFMAN: It is a little bit difficult for me to, uh, visualize how this could have taken place, uh, or how it could have happened. Uh, uh, really, it is, which is, I guess, the reason why it's interesting how, uh, during the middle of the local strike at Dwight Mill you had a major Labor Day parade down the main street of Gadsden, so.

IRONS: It's pretty phenomenal, really.

HOFFMAN: Yeah, yeah.

IRONS: OK. I guess we're going to move right on. Um, the strike is on. Um -- oh dear. This is, um, about some people getting killed. Um, also, it's about, uh, what happened over in Albertville -- Albertville and Guntersville.

HOFFMAN: Yeah, yeah.

IRONS: That's very close to Gadsden, right?

HOFFMAN: Uh, yes it is. Uh, Albertville is about 25 miles from -- from Gadsden, so it is close, uh, to Gadsden.

IRONS: And they were on strike also?

HOFFMAN: Um, let's see. I'm sure they were, yeah. Uh, the Albertville plant.

IRONS: It says that they reopened today. This is September 6th, 1934.

HOFFMAN: OK, OK. I thought I remembered that they were out for a while, so they went back to work.

IRONS: Mm-hmm. OK. "Gorman and Sloan to meet Board." Gorman's the head of the UTW, and Sloan is, our friend Sloan from the --

HOFFMAN: George Sloan, I believe is his first name, that headed the Cotton Code authority.

IRONS: And uh, this is September 7th, 1934, so they're having a meeting. Maybe they're going to resolve the strike. Um, then we're going to move on.

HOFFMAN: OK, I think what we have here, starting on -- well, going back, just real quickly, um, uh, starting in early September, this says September the 8th, you had negotiations, uh, between labor and management at the national level, uh, between George Sloan and Gorman to try to settle the strike, and these negotiations, uh, went for a while. They'd break off, continue again, so you had this pattern of negotiations attempted. They'd fail, and then they would meet again, so this, I think, just basically begins the negotiation process at 00:05:00the national level.

IRONS: OK. Why don't we maybe skip here, um --

HOFFMAN: OK, this is interesting right here. "Gorman demands Johnson resigns." Johnson was, uh, FDR's -- uh, appointee to -- what?

IRONS: The, uh, NRA. Wasn't he head of the NRA?

HOFFMAN: Right. You're absolutely correct, yes. Johnson headed the NRA, OK. That -- that is correct, and labor, represented here by Gorman, strongly opposed Johnson during the course of the strike, uh, which is to say, they opposed -- labor opposed the Roosevelt administration. Uh, but a major bone of contention between labor and the government was -- was Johnson -- he was commonly referred to as "General Johnson," who, uh, did head the NRA, yes.

IRONS: And -- and, uh, it says here that, General Johnsons attacked the, uh, United Textile Workers leader --

HOFFMAN: Thomas McMahon.

IRONS: -- Thomas McMahon.

HOFFMAN: Yeah, yeah.

IRONS: Um, and uh, McMahon then retorts that General Johnson is taking the side of the employers.

HOFFMAN: Right.

IRONS: Um --

HOFFMAN: That was the union charge.

IRONS: I see.

HOFFMAN: That Johnson did support, uh, management.

IRONS: OK. This is September 17th. "Martial law ordered in Georgia." Um, again that's something that never happened in Alabama.

HOFFMAN: Never happened here, no.

IRONS: So, it was real different in Alabam--

HOFFMAN: Yeah.

IRONS: -- from the other states. Uh, this is, uh, Tuesday, September 18th. "Strike leaders face relief problem, uh, getting food."

HOFFMAN: Right, right. The union, uh, locally never had a war chest, or never had a strike fund to support the strike, so relief for the strikers was a major issue with the union, uh, and the union did attempt to get government -- 00:07:00government relief, uh, during the strike, yeah.

IRONS: You know, they were doing a lot of reporting about what's going on at the national level.

HOFFMAN: Mm-hmm.

IRONS: And I keep looking for a local story about Gadsden --

HOFFMAN: Yeah.

IRONS: -- and, um, I'm not finding them.

HOFFMAN: Well, yeah. It's difficult to get local, uh, articles on Dwight Mill, because most of the, uh, events at the strike happened, uh, out of state, other places and at the national level, and a lot of this relates to negotiations between, uh, George Sloan and Gorman to settle the strike.

IRONS: Mm-hmm, OK. So now we're getting out near the -- the, uh, end of the strike in September. Um, oh, whoa. Wait, wait, wait. Here is Monday, September 24th. Read that.

HOFFMAN: OK. "On the 24th, the local, uh, strike at Dwight Mill came to an end after an injunction." OK, what we have here, uh, the company asked law enforcement, asked the courts, and I believe Judge [Diskey?] was the judge who issued this injunction, uh, asked the -- uh, the manager of Dwight Mill, Alan Little, asked for an injunction to end the strike and order the workers back to work. So this relates to the injunction against the union.

IRONS: Now it says here, that, um, "Employees of the Dwight Manufacturing Company last night at nine o'clock voted to continue the strike which was called on July the 12th, and that therefore Sheriff [Leith?] served writs of injunction on 24 strikers, at which point, the strikers changed their mind and voted to call off the strike.

HOFFMAN: Yeah, yeah.

IRONS: Um, so that, what's happening here is that the national textile workers union, the UTW, has decided to call off the strike, but the local strikers seem to want to continue on striking, and uh, an injunction has to get, uh -- placed into effect in order to get them to go back to work.

HOFFMAN: Uh, I think that's correct. Yes, I'm just looking real quickly. Let's see, September 24th, uh, that that would be -- that would be correct, and this article is just stating the local situation at Dwight Mill and the workers not wanting to go back to work, yeah.

IRONS: Now, my sense is that that was somewhat unusual, knowing what I know about what happened in other places besides Gadsden, for the local workers to decide to defy the national union's decision to end the strike, and say, no, we don't want to stop the strike, we want to continue striking, that that makes Gadsden special.

HOFFMAN: Well, in a sense it does; I would agree. I would agree with you. Uh 00:10:00-- uh, there seems to have been just a very determined stand by employees at Dwight Mill, um -- uh, to go on and strike to begin with, and, uh, continue after the national strike was settled, yeah.

IRONS: OK. Now let's see. Then the next thing we have here is, uh, September the 25th. "Many textile mills remain idles in the South. Gorman charges discrimination as strike aftermath."

HOFFMAN: Yeah, yeah. What, uh, happened after the strike in Alabama, North Alabama was that, um -- the union, uh, claimed -- uh, company harassment, uh, of strikers, employees that went on strike, and the union claimed, uh, that their employees, or members were discriminated against, uh -- in -- uh, various different ways. One thing that occurred at Dwight Mill, active union leaders 00:11:00who took an active part in the strike, and I think there was a total of about 120 altogether were not rehired by the company after the strike; they lost their jobs.

IRONS: That's -- that's -- I've heard, uh, a lot of stories about that --

HOFFMAN: Yeah, yeah.

IRONS: -- from -- from people.

HOFFMAN: Yeah.

IRONS: And here is September 26th. "Dwight Mills resumes operation." Look at that.

HOFFMAN: Yeah, yeah.

IRONS: It says, "Hundreds back at work with smiling faces."

HOFFMAN: OK, uh --

IRONS: You think they had smiling faces?

HOFFMAN: Uh, no, I do not. I think this is propaganda. Uh, the union clearly lost the strike. The union clearly did not gain -- locally at Dwight Mill did not gain anything by the strike, uh, and employees had been out of work, uh, for several weeks, close to two months. Here we have September 26, uh, where they basically just supported the strike on their own. Uh, the degree of help and 00:12:00involvement of the AFL, uh, is unclear and uncertain, but the AFL really did not donate much --

IRONS: You mean the UTW?

HOFFMAN: Well, no, I mean the AFL --

IRONS: OK.

HOFFMAN: -- now, the UTWA, uh, United Textile Workers, uh, of America, their role has to be considered, basically, I'm thinking, in a different context, but the thing is that the AFL, as a national labor organization, uh, did not contribute much, if anything, to -- uh, the local effort at Dwight Mill, OK. Uh, the degree of help or support that the UTWA gave the local union here, uh, seems to be unclear as well. There were several things that resulted after the strike of the UTWA. Basically, after the strike by this time on the 26th, the union was broken and couldn't do anything. It was defeated nationally.

IRONS: OK. That's it.

GEORGE STONEY: OK. Uh, now Jamie.

(break in video)

JAMIE STONEY: Rolling

IRONS: Can you -- if you want to slice -- splice it in? This is, uh, Sunday morning, September 23rd. "Great textile strike terminated. Workers told by leaders," meaning the union leaders, "to resume jobs."

HOFFMAN: OK.

IRONS: Um, "and Gorman," uh, "decides to accept the government's proposal to end the strike."

HOFFMAN: Yeah, yeah. OK, that's correct. The union, um -- uh, over the course of the strike, the end of the strike, was negotiated at the national level by Gorman, uh, and basically George Sloan, uh, of the Cotton Code Authority, and this relates -- uh, this relates to that. Uh, there's strong indications that President Roosevelt, uh, FDR wanted the strike settled. And, uh, my research indicates that Roosevelt wanted the strike settled quickly so he could get on with his national recovery program. This strike had threatened his 00:14:00NRA program. The nation was in a depression; the economy was hurting anyway. This strike did not help, so he wanted it settled, and if it meant the union lost to get it over quickly, then Roosevelt was apparently willing to go that route.

IRONS: It's interesting that, uh, this, uh -- article suggests might what -- what might be coming in the future. Here it says, "Jubilation reigned at strike headquarters," but then down here it says that "A militant minority stood out for continuation of the strike insisting that the employers first guarantee unconditionally the reinstatement without discrimination --"

HOFFMAN: Yeah.

IRONS: "-- of all who quit the mills."

HOFFMAN: One thing you have to look at very closely on this articles is, who wrote the articles, if, uh, they were written by local staff writers or AP articles, and try to judge whether you're getting strike facts or propaganda slanted toward one view or another, so yeah, whether or not everybody was jubilant of -- union people were happy and all of that, remains an issue.

GEORGE STONEY: Could you talk about the -- this local paper in terms of propaganda and [control?]?

HOFFMAN: Not I.

IRONS: (laughter) I can't either.

(break in video)

JAMIE STONEY: Great Textile Strike (inaudible) we're rolling. Oh (inaudible) -- oh yeah, no, you're right, I'm wrong. Use your hand, you were doing -- what you were doing before. Go ahead.

IRONS: OK, well this is the column that we want right here too. "Workers told by leaders to resume jobs." Is that on there?

JAMIE STONEY: Mm-hmm.

IRONS: OK, great.

JAMIE STONEY: And would you do the same thing with, uh, Sloan -- I guess, Gadsden -- I guess (inaudible) [whole article?].

IRONS: "Sloan withholds comment on end of textile strike." This one is not on there though, Jamie. I'm sorry.

JAMIE STONEY: I was told that it was -- (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).

(break in video)

(overlapping dialogue; inaudible)

GEORGE STONEY: -- no, I'm going to eliminate the fingers.

IRONS: Right. It was only to, uh, indicate that --

JAMIE STONEY: You want to go on on each article, or --

IRONS: Just the "Workers --"

GEORGE STONEY: No.

IRONS: "-- told by leaders to resume --"

GEORGE STONEY: Just cut to that.

IRONS: "-- jobs."

(break in video)

GEORGE STONEY: (inaudible) got to move on.

JAMIE STONEY: Actually, hold on. Because it costs $300 an hour post-production to do that.

GEORGE STONEY: Flipping too much on the --

(break in video)

IRONS: And then you want to hone in on, "Millworkers change --"

GEORGE STONEY: Yeah, we'll do that in just a moment.

(break in video)

JAMIE STONEY: OK.

IRONS: That's great.

JAMIE STONEY: [National mayor races?].

IRONS: My eyes, much -- very selective. Am I optically focused on anything having to do with textile workers.

JAMIE STONEY: -- (inaudible) and Douglas Davis.

(break in video)

IRONS: And I don't think there's any cut to a float -- you know, a small one that you want to go to.

JAMIE STONEY: How about, "Hitler faces crisis talk in Reichstag"?

IRONS: Right, well there is that. (laughter) There are other things going on in the world.

JAMIE STONEY: Need you to -- (inaudible). This is (inaudible) -- yeah.

GEORGE STONEY: (inaudible) September.

(break in video)

CREW: Hold on.

IRONS: Good. Good, George. I'm s-- you know, I moved really fast, so, um -- as a -- that's great, you're getting that, um, sub -- subheading too.

JAMIE STONEY: I mean, this is like how old (inaudible) about 50% of most TVs were actually getting all of this. But that's best case, that's worst case. And then you have to allow –

(break in video)

IRONS: Straight from July 12th to July 16th, and skip those others in between, because it gives the idea of escalation from the Dwight to the entire state. 00:19:00(break in video) (inaudible) a statewide strike, but that's not what it says, is it?

(overlapping dialogue; inaudible)

(break in video)

IRONS: Excellent. (break in video) OK.

JAMIE STONEY: Yeah.

IRONS: Do you want to do it? Why don't you do it? You know what you're doing better than I do.

JAMIE STONEY: (inaudible) Doesn't have to be that slow.

IRONS: Right.

JAMIE STONEY: Yes it will, otherwise little static going, and (inaudible).

(break in video)

JAMIE STONEY: (inaudible) impossible to do.

GEORGE STONEY: Try --

(break in video)

JAMIE STONEY: Do it.

IRONS: OK, one more --

(break in video)

JAMIE STONEY: One, two, three, do it. (inaudible)

IRONS: It's good enough.

JAMIE STONEY: Let me try one more time --

IRONS: OK. Excellent.

JAMIE STONEY: Now, what's the next one we want --

IRONS: OK.

(break in video)

JAMIE STONEY: OK.

IRONS: Ready?

JAMIE STONEY: Yup.

IRONS: I don't know if I can do this.

GEORGE STONEY: Let's do a straight cut on that.

JAMIE STONEY: No, I think we can do it.

IRONS: One, two three.

JAMIE STONEY: One, two, three.

IRONS: No. But we need that to be pulled back a little bit.

GEORGE STONEY: No, do it on a cut.

JAMIE STONEY: Yeah, let's just [lock up?] on this end.

GEORGE STONEY: All right, do it on a cut. (inaudible) needs to be bigger, for the other thing.

JAMIE STONEY: That needs to be bigger?

GEORGE STONEY: No, no, the other --

IRONS: The next one.

JAMIE STONEY: Yeah. I'm just going to let this run so we can get this.

GEORGE STONEY: It felt about (inaudible).

JAMIE STONEY: What's the next one?

GEORGE STONEY: OK, and this.

JAMIE STONEY: Do we need -- I'm going to do this a little more. Do we need any close up on this?

GEORGE STONEY: I don't think.

JAMIE STONEY: OK --

IRONS: Oh no.

GEORGE STONEY: (inaudible) like that.

JAMIE STONEY: OK, George, we're going to need her (inaudible).

GEORGE STONEY: No.

JAMIE STONEY: OK.

IRONS: So I'm not going to do the Dixie?

GEORGE STONEY: No, I don't think so.

(break in video)

IRONS: Here's Carl.

GRADY KILGO: Yeah. Them two -- them two had junc-- injunctions filed against them.

IRONS: Now, was that -- why was that?

KILGO: That -- there's – they is -- two of the fellows that was on the railroad, and the rest of them I can't think of the names that's on the railroad.

IRONS: OK. Do you -- I wonder, here's the Hollins. Did you know them?

KILGO: Yeah. JP Hollins.

IRONS: Were they on the railroad?

KILGO: No --

GEORGE STONEY: Now, explain what happened on the railroad.

KILGO: Well, they -- they, uh, wanted to stop the train from going in the mill, to pick up, uh, the cotton and stuff to bring out. I mean, [mill?] the cotton stuff. And, uh, they closed -- tried to close the gate on it there, but they wouldn't close the gate, so, they went ahead and, uh, just said we'll go in 00:23:00anyway. Engineer that told him, "stop," and he said, "Well, I got orders to go." He said, "Yeah, and you got order to stop, too." So he pulled on up, and these four men, I believe it was, run up there and laid down on the track, or they wouldn't move. Well the engineer called Mr. Moody and them, told him they had orders to pull the train on in. He said, "Well," said, "We'll see why we can't." So this fellow just laid on the track; he didn't move. They got the sheriff up there, and they talked to 'em, and talked to 'em, and finally, I believe it was Clyde, or another fellow there, come out there and told 'em, said, "Well," said, Mr. Moody told 'em, said, "Well, if you're going to do that," said, "We won't let the train go in. We'll stop it here." So, they turned it back, and Clyde asked them men, I believe it was Clyde, or another fellow there --

IRONS: Clyde Ware?

KILGO: -- uh-huh, asked them to come off of the track, and they did, they come 00:24:00out, but they didn't pull the train in there. They left the train oh for, it was a good while before they went in to pick up anything.

IRONS: So they stopped the train?

KILGO: Oh yeah, they stopped it.

IRONS: Wow.

KILGO: They stopped it flat. (laughter) He just stopped, run over them, they wasn't gonna move. (laughter)

IRONS: Did -- did that surprise you to see those four men lay down on that track?

KILGO: Well no, back then, well, didn't nothing much surprise you. (laughter)

IRONS: So, so there was a feeling that people felt like this was the thing to do?

KILGO: Oh yeah, they thought it -- see, what they was trying to do, just like I said, they was trying to get something done for the people. Just like I say, we had rough times. I mean, them overseers, and second-handed thing, they didn't have a bit of mercy on you. They'd just come around and do what they want to do, just, Charles Moody would bring a worksheet up there, and say, "This feller has got to have this, much more work. That's got to have that much more work." Well he was doing all you could do, but still, they thought you ought to do more and more and more. That's the way it went. But, and, when 00:25:00the strike ended, they really made it rough on us. They'd come in there, and they said, "You'll do this; you'll do that." Walked over and [fired?] us what they wanted to [fire?], walk out the gate, get what they wanted, come back in there, and put them back to work. Most of them was working their kinfolks. That -- that was a big deal. You know --

F: What do you mean? Explain that.

KILGO: Oh, they're -- family. They want -- maybe a boss's brother wanted the job over here, well they gave him a job. Aunt over here wanted a job, she got a job. That -- this -- that's the kind of business it was. Of course, people don't know -- nothing about this kind of business. I've lost a whole lot of it myself, memory of it and things, but I still remember how they treated them all like that, and --

GEORGE STONEY: Janet get them to start back when he first got in the mill.

IRONS: OK. Let's go back to the beginning, and uh, tell me about when you 00:26:00first began working in the mill.

KILGO: I went to work there in August of '32. And there wasn't a hard [nothing?] they was running it [learners?].

IRONS: Tell me why you went into the mill.

KILGO: Well, I didn't have any other place to go, no job or nothing. I was keeping up my mother and eight kids. So, I had to have a job somewhere or another. I went and applied for a job. Just like I say, there was a hard learner -- just, they was running it with learners, and it's using them there. Just like I say, you learnt four weeks before you got a payday, six weeks before you got a payday. And then, that's what you got. Then they'd put you on a job; they'd leave you with a person there, and learning you.

IRONS: Mm-hmm.

KILGO: Then they'd put you on the job six weeks.

IRONS: By yourself?

KILGO: Mm-hmm. You'd have, oh, three or four sides apiece, and if they'd take a notion to come around and give you more side, they'd just give it to you, say nothing about it, and say, "That's it, you run it." And there 00:27:00you went.

IRONS: So you weren't really learning?

KILGO: No.

IRONS: But they were paying you learning -- they weren't paying?

KILGO: No, they didn't pay you anything to learn you. You just, done that on your own.

IRONS: What kind of job did you have when you first started?

KILGO: I was learning with spinner.

IRONS: Spinner?

KILGO: Yeah. Had an old lady working. I was working with her, real old lady. And, she was a good teacher. I mean, she would teach you if you'd just listen, but she -- she was real good.

IRONS: Did you like spinning?

KILGO: Oh yeah, they put her. They'd give her about four learners, where she had to take care of all of the four learners.

IRONS: Wow.

KILGO: And, uh, see if they get straightened out, how they done and all like that.

IRONS: Do you remember the overseer in the spinning room?

KILGO: Oh yeah.

IRONS: Who was that?

KILGO: [Atlas Schrump?].

IRONS: Tell me about him.

KILGO: The worst things you ever seen, stand out in the middle of the mill on a whistle. Had a little straw boss that'd go to him, and he'd tell him, so-and-so, so and this here wouldn't run, well here come that little straw 00:28:00boss and eat you up then. Then, that's what it was. That [At Schrump?] upped, 19 and -- let's see, I believe 1937, we -- we got the union, is that what you got on there? 1937?

IRONS: Nineteen, uh, forty two.

GEORGE STONEY: Two.

KILGO: Forty-two, yeah.

IRONS: What happened then?

KILGO: Well, they, uh -- they got him straightened out. They just took him and told him he had to be straightened out. So, the union members got with all the big shots to the mill.

GEORGE STONEY: Stop. Say, "In 1942 when they finally got a union in, then."

KILGO: Yeah, they, uh -- they -- they wanted to straighten them things out there.

GEORGE STONEY: Sorry. I needed to have you say that, because --

KILGO: Yeah.

GEORGE STONEY: -- the audience hasn't heard what I'm saying.

KILGO: Yeah. (laughter)

IRONS: When -- when did they finally get the union?

KILGO: That -- it was '42, I believe it was.

IRONS: Yeah.

KILGO: And, uh -- so they got, uh -- well let's see, '37, '38 -- yea, '42. Well the they got these, all this, uh, big bunch there, and told them 00:29:00there had to be some straightening out there. They stopped this overseer from walking around and blowing his whistle, balling people out, things like that, stop these little straw bosses, what we called "section hands."

IRONS: Mm-hmm.

KILGO: That's, uh -- that's a fixer, that's what it was. They had the authority to come tell you to do what you -- what they wanted you to do and stuff like that. They didn't like it, they cut you out, ball you out, and stuff like that, but they straightened all that out too, and put 'em up there. And, uh, they put a good shop steward on, and he would help you, something come up. They'd -- they'd go to shop steward with it.

IRONS: Mm-hmm.

KILGO: And then, they come around there, and something didn't -- they brought a case up, arbitrate it. Or they had an arbitrator come here from Atlanta, or Chattanooga, somewhere there.

IRONS: Mm-hmm.

KILGO: We'd have a meeting in there, the -- the arbitrators, with a big bin, and, they already straightened it out in '37, but up till then, I mean, '42, 00:30:00up till then, it was rough.