Doyle Johns Interview 2

 JUDITH HELFAND: (multiple conversations, inaudible) That the Cox's? lived in? Can you show George? He didn't see. And you gotta look at me.

DOYLE JOHNS: My son-in-law is [Johnny?] Cox, and he married our daughter and uh, he married our daughter [Carrie?]. And, uh, he lives in Huntsville now, and he's just retired from the SBI. And, uh, he asked me if I would look up something on his ancestors, which -- his ancestor, his uncle is Burns Cox, that lived in this home, here. In fact, Johnny's dad and mother -- and they all lived in this home right here at one time. And, uh, I'm going to look up his genealogy as soon as I get time. I should have already had it done, but I just been busy.

GEORGE STONEY: Tell us about the book that you have there. What is it?

JOHNS: I don't know what this is.

GEORGE STONEY: But just tell us what the book is.

HELFAND: Would you say the Cox family -- I know the -- can you tell us about how 00:01:00the Cox family came down here and how they might have been used by -- how that book might have helped them get down here?

JOHNS: You tell I'm not perfect, [Nancy?].

HELFAND: Nobody's perfect. Start with--

GEORGE STONEY: Just say this is a book -- this is a book (inaudible).

JOHNS: I asked Johnny, I said, "you've got to have something to start on when you lookin' up your genealogy." He said, "Well, I know that I was named after my grandfather, and his name was John Cox. And all I know is that he is -- he originated from Jackson County, Alabama. And, uh, so I -- I asked some of his other relatives, and they gave me the name of his aunts and uncles. It was Burns, and [Fay?], and uh, [R.T?] and -- and several oth -- and some of them died as infants, but I have enough to go on now. So, I'm going to go to the [sound decks?] and I'm gonna get started on it pretty soon. This -- this book that they put out, uh, it's -- the object of this book is to bring to your attention conditions as they exist in Alabama City. All of the above 00:02:00(inaudible) is represented, and the pictures are actual photographs that were recently taken. The Dwight Manufacturing Company pays the best wages, has the best mill village, a splendid mill, and everything for the convenience and comfort of this employee. You will find employment with us pleasant as all of our department heads are competent, reasonable men. Applications for positions may be made in person by mail to Dwight Manufacturing Company, Alabama City, Alabama.

HELFAND: Now, is this the kind of book that you think Burns Cox's family would have been given when they were up in Jackson County?

JOHNS: I'm sure it is. I'm sure it is.

HELFAND: Can you tell me that?

JOHNS: I'm sure it is, because his daddy...

GEORGE STONEY: Just say, "This kind of book would be given."

JOHNS: This is the kind of book that would have been given to, uh, Burns Cox's ancestors in Jackson County, or any other county to entice them to come to Dwight Manufacturing Company to work.

GEORGE STONEY: Very good.

HELFAND: And where did they live when they came here? That picture where they live?

JOHNS: Mm-hmm.

HELFAND: Can we see it again? Just start with, "As a matter of fact, this is the house that they lived in."

JOHNS: Oh, and I knew the thing.

HELFAND: OK, yeah, actually I'm going to ask you to...

JOHNS: Gotta lot of this cut out?

HELFAND: Yeah, that's exactly why we're redoing it, so we can cut it out real easy. If you could close the book again, turn it -- you know, the way you were holding it.(break in video) OK, look at me.

JOHNS: As a matter of fact, this is the house that the Cox family lived in when they lived in the Dwight mill village -- after they left Jackson and came to Alabama City many years ago.

HELFAND: Now, is that the house you delivered groceries to?

JOHNS: Yeah.

HELFAND: And [T-Mama?] would answer the door, I guess?

JOHNS: We'd go to the back door.

HELFAND: OK, well you tell me about that.

JOHNS: She'd be sitting there setting the kitchen. (laughter) She'd be cooking, she'd have to cook for all of 'em. It was a big family -- three families.

HELFAND: Did you ever go inside that mill when you were a little boy? Do you -- did you ever deliver groceries there?

JOHNS: Uh, I do remember them ringing the bells. I mean, they rung the bells on every hour, and -- and they had a curfew bell that they did ring, and they rung the bell for Sunday school and church on Sunday. And -- and that curfew -- and they worked 12 hours a day when I was a little boy -- and when that bell rang at six o'clock, if that child was out, they had to be home at six o'clock when that parent come home from the mill.

HELFAND: Six o'clock.

JOHNS: Six o'clock in the afternoon. They worked 12 hours. They worked from 6:00 to 6:00, and -- and one of them in the family had to have -- have supper ready for 'em when they got home at six o'clock. So, in those days, a lot of, uh, elderly people were still living and they were livin' in the homes, and they would do the cookin' and the housekeeping for the ones that was workin' in the mill. 'Cause just about everybody in the family worked in the mill, regardless of how old they were.

HELFAND: Did you see lint all over the streets in the village? I mean, could you tell--

JOHNS: No, no.

HELFAND: -- it was a cotton mill village?

JOHNS: No lint out in the village. They -- they had a good, uh, land fill. They had their trucks, they hauled everything -- all their garbage and everything from Dwight, they hauled it down to the land fill which was on Black Creek. Everyday you could see the Dwight trucks hauling the garbage off. And lint out on the streets, well that's the first I heard of that.

HELFAND: You know...

JOHNS: They had some in the mill, of course. In fact, the first job I ever had was dragging the big alley. That was just going up and down the big alley dragging the lint up keeping' -- keeping' the spinnin' room clean.

HELFAND: What year was that, when you started working?

JOHNS: That was in between my junior and senior year, that was in 1934 and '35.

HELFAND: So, that summer from 1934...

JOHNS: I just worked that summer and then I quit and went back and finished high school.

HELFAND: I imagine in the summer of '34 was actually when they were all out on strike, is that right?

JOHNS: Oh, it must have been the summer of '35. If it was in the summer they -- I guess it -- yeah, see, I can't keep up with -- in other words, I finished 00:06:00-- I finished in the spring of '36, and my first job was in the summer of '35.

HELFAND: What was it like to walk in the cotton room for the first time?

JOHNS: Well, I was a teenager, I enjoyed it. Shoot, I'd get eight dollars a week, I'd give momma four and I'd have four, I'd have a ball on four dollars a week. (laughs) That's the truth.

HELFAND: You know, a lot of people have told us in a lot of other places that the mill village was like a family. What do you think about that?

JOHNS: I think so. They were very closely knitted, all the families that were in the mill was closely knitted. All of them if they was old enough would work in the mill, or the one that was too old would keep the house, and fix the meals, and have a garden. And, uh, somebody had to take the cow to the pasture, but they -- there was always somebody around to do that. That was my job, to take the cow to the pasture and go get it. I never milked it, but I carried it to the pasture.

HELFAND: Now one other thing -- can you turn the camera off for a second?

(break in video)

JOHNS: Uh, most of them did work in the mill, even -- some of 'em worked and went to high school at the same time, if -- if they didn't play ball, of course. I played ball and -- and I just went straight to school during school hours. But they was some of them that -- that families -- that worked in the mill, and they worked in the mill 3:00 to 11:00 and they went to school in the daytime. And uh, of course some of 'em didn't go to work in the mill when they come outta high school, some of 'em went on the police force, and some of 'em went on the fire department, and some of 'em went to college. But uh, the percent of going to college was not great in those days. But some of 'em did.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, finally, about class attitudes.

HELFAND: Yeah. Um, in a lot of places that we've been to, we've, uh, got a sense that the mill village was very separate from the rest of the community, and that the community maybe looked down on the cotton mill people. What was going on here in Gadsden to that effect?

JOHNS: That didn't have an affect on me, about the class action, because, uh --

GEORGE STONEY: Just uh, class attitudes --

JOHNS: Class attitude.

GEORGE STONEY: --not class actions. Let's start again. OK?

JOHNS: That didn't have any effect on me is the -- is the attitude, uh...

GEORGE STONEY: That's all right.

HELFAND: You know what, you reword it in any way that makes you feel comfortable.

(break in video)

JOHNS: That didn't have any effect in -- in Alabama City and Gadsden, 'cause Gulf State Steel was not too far from Dwight Manufacturing Company. A lot of the families worked at Gulf State Steel and a lot of them worked at Dwight. And we were just all friends in school, and we were all friends in -- playing in their yards, and the other thing, and of course the Gulf State Steel had the YMCA. And actually, I grew up in that YMCA, I spent many hours in that swimming pool, and the bowling alley, and they also had teams for us to play on -- baseball, and basketball, and the other thing. So, I had friends in my room in school, that family worked at the steel plant as well as at the Goodyear plant, as well as other, uh, lumber companies, and -- and stove foundries, and things. And I didn't see anything -- any attitude that was not OK.

GEORGE STONEY: Did, uh -- ask about the [Nickels?] family and the other owner 00:09:00families. Did he have any connection to them?

HELFAND: Yeah. Well, George you just asked it. What do you -- what do you think about that?

JOHNS: I didn't --

HELFAND: Did you -- did you --

JOHNS: -- know too much about the Nickels family.

HELFAND: -- grow up knowing any of the Nickels children --

JOHNS: No.

HELFAND: -- and of the Nickels people --

JOHNS: No, that's older than my time. That's older than my time.

GEORGE STONEY: I see, OK.

JOHNS: They was Nickels at the steel plant that was guards, but the Nickels -- as far as the Nickels alive and the other thing --

HELFAND: You know, as...

JOHNS: -- that's before my time.

HELFAND: As a local historian, I think -- I'd love to get your point of view on this. We just met someone who wrote a big book all about the cotton mill industry, and the 1934 -- that big union drive. And um, he -- even though he put -- he wrote this big book, but he lives in a town similar to Gadsden, and he's uncomfortable to share all this history that he put together with the people. And he's -- he feels like he's in a real dilemma, 'cause how can he put out -- it's very similar to the work that we're doing, but he feels 00:10:00that, even though he collected all this very important history, that it's going to make a lot of waves with people, if he talks about all this union activity that went on in the 1930s in his town.

JOHNS: I'm not uncomfortable with it, because I had, uh, people on both sides -- it was both of 'em that was my friends, good friends. I have no problem with it. It's just never been a problem, as far as I was concerned.

HELFAND: Did -- maybe you could talk a little bit about both sides, and how both sides on that strike were relating to each other at that time? It would really help us to understand maybe why Gadsden is -- has been different in terms of expressing this to us than other communities?

JOHNS: I -- I can't say much about it, because it wasn't my cup of tea. In other words, I was more interested in -- in swimming, and -- and -- and playing ball and goin' fishin' and things. It just wasn't my cup of tea to be involved in anything like that. As far as bein' called a linthead, I don't think I've ever been called a linthead in my life, even though I worked three years in -- in the mill. And, now, of course, I worked 35 and a half years in 00:11:00the steel plant. And, um, I played on ball teams with Dwight, and I played on ball teams with the Sunday school, and I played on ball teams at -- at Gulf State Steel. So, they just all been my friends, I mean -- now sometimes, a person, if they knew that you had worked at -- at the Dwight Mills, they may call you linthead, but it would not be ferocious, it would be in -- in the spirit of -- of that you were a friend of theirs.

GEORGE STONEY: Good. That's -- that's very good. That's a nice way to run that out.

HELFAND: What do you know about pig poles? Is that what it was called?

GEORGE STONEY: No, no. (laughs)

JOHNS: Greasing?

HELFAND: Yeah, greasing. 'Cause they told me they did that on the picket line.

JOHNS: Well, they -- they would put a dollar bill up on a tall pole, and -- and grease the pole, and if you could climb that pole, you got the dollar bill.

HELFAND: Were you there at the picket line when they were doing those kind of things?

JOHNS: I watched it. I was too little to try and climb the pole. (laughs) In fact, they -- they would, uh, do that on top of buildings, and -- and do that at 00:12:00a lot of occasions. Uh, and -- and in Gadsden, when they had the unveiling of (inaudible) monument, where they had mule racing, horse racing -- uh, mule racing, horse racing, and uh, greasy pole climbs. And this had -- this had all kinds -- must have had about 15 events, different -- uh, egg racing, tote sack racing, and everything.

HELFAND: You know, as a -- as someone who's very invested in local history, how did you -- and we know -- I know that they just made a historic district on one side of the town -- how did you feel when they took down the mill, the building?

JOHNS: I was disappointed. I thought...

GEORGE STONEY: You have to say...

HELFAND: Can you start with, "When they took down Dwight Mills?"

JOHNS: When they took down Dwight Mill, I was disappointed, 'cause I thought that, uh -- at that time, I thought they could get another mill to move in there. And then it was even rumored that a shoe company was gonna go in there. And I just wanted to see some kind of industry go in that building, 'cause it was well built and beautiful building. And I don't see any need for it to come down, but, uh, apparently, and this is all rumor, and I don't know, I may 00:13:00be talkin' out of school, but Cone uh, it's been said bought the mill on purpose, to close it out. So, I don't know -- that was just a hearsay, now. It's not what I say, it's a hearsay.

HELFAND: Did you know that there are many people in this town who, like yourself, have collected memorabilia -- they collected the bricks from the old mill?

JOHNS: Yeah, I've got friends that got bricks in the old mill. And I wished I had got a brick from the Gulf State Steel YMCA, but I didn't. But I've got a lot of clippings from the newspaper and everything, and what activities that we did. I collect anything I can get my hands on.

GEORGE STONEY: OK.

HELFAND: Thank you very much.

GEORGE STONEY: Beautiful.

JOHNS: OK.

GEORGE STONEY: Now, uh, we don't mean to tie you down, but we're gonna have to come move camera over here...

(break in video)

GEORGE STONEY: Probably, uh, a two shot of him.

(break in video)

GEORGE STONEY: OK.

HELFAND: Um, what was the percentage of those kids whose parents worked in the mills?

JAMIE STONEY: OK, I wanna do another one like this.

GEORGE STONEY: OK.

(break in video)

GEORGE STONEY: Name her, and how many of the people worked in the mills?

JOHNS: This is my...

GEORGE STONEY: Just a moment.

JAMIE STONEY: We're rolling.

GEORGE STONEY: OK. Yes.

JOHNS: This is my teacher, Miss [Law?], she was later Ms. [Camp?], and these are my classmates, and about 50% of them are deceased now. These were all my third grade classmates in 1925.

GEORGE STONEY: How many of them worked in the mill?

JOHNS: Their parents, just about all of them, worked in the mill. I'd say 95% of their parents worked in the mill.

JAMIE STONEY: (inaudible), dad? OK.

GEORGE STONEY: Good. Very good. OK. (multiple conversations, inaudible).

(break in video)

JOHNS: This is, uh, a picture of the Alabama City livery stable. My daddy bought this livery stable in the early '20s, and this is my brother on the extreme left, and he later tore this, uh, building down and put a 24-hour garage there that, uh, the horses was fading out and the automobiles was coming in, in the early '20s.

GEORGE STONEY: OK. GOOD.

(break in video)

JOHNS: -- Fact that they were workin' on...

JAMIE STONEY: Could you start again, please? Say it again?

JOHNS: This is a pamphlet that the Chamber of Commerce put out in 1940, it was a kind of a public relations, uh, contribute to the organization.

JAMIE STONEY: OK.

(break in video)

JAMIE STONEY: OK, you can start, sir.

JOHNS: OK. This showing, uh, three railroads that went through Gadsden -- the 00:16:00Southern Railroad, the NC and St. L, and the L & N Railroad. The L & N went from, uh, Gadsden to [Kallerie?] and the -- the Southern went from New York to New Orleans, and the N.C and St. L went from Gadsden to Chattanooga, Tennessee.

GEORGE STONEY: OK, let's try it one more time. Jamie? All right, sir?

JOHNS: This is showing the three main railroads going through Gadsden. The L&N, it went from, uh -- from, uh Gadsden to by Birmingham, to Kallerie, and showing the Southern Railroad, it went from New York to, uh, New Orleans, and NC and St. L that went from, uh, Gadsden to Chattanooga.

GEORGE STONEY: OK. Fine. OK, now let's see, here's...

(break in video)

JAMIE STONEY: I got it. OK.

GEORGE STONEY: OK?

(break in video)

JAMIE STONEY: Now, what building is this we're looking at here?

JOHNS: This is looking at the Dwight Mill from across the lake. The lake was divided into two parts, and they pumped the water from Black Creek to this lake, and from this lake will furnish the water for the -- for the -- for the plant itself.

GEORGE STONEY: I believe we asked...

(break in video)

JAMIE STONEY: Was this before or after they were in the blimp business?

JOHNS: It was -- that's the first pamphlet that they sent out, when the built 00:18:00the plant -- that's 1929.

GEORGE STONEY: I'm sorry.

JOHNS: That's all right.

GEORGE STONEY: That's fine, Jamie. Mm-hmm. Yep, OK. Yeah, I like that.

(break in video)

GEORGE STONEY: OK.

JAMIE STONEY : Want a close up of the engraving?

GEORGE STONEY: Mm-hmm. OK.

JAMIE STONEY: And you want to get that last...

GEORGE STONEY: Mm-hmm.

JAMIE STONEY: OK.

(break in video)

GEORGE STONEY: Ok.

JOHNS: This pamphlet was published about 1912, and this is giving the location, of where the plant -- it's, uh, halfway between the [tower?] in Gadsden in 00:20:00northeast Alabama, about central of Etowah county. This is about the drinking water, which is plenty of springs and everything. And this is one of the three-room cottages that the workers in Dwight Mill could rent for three dollars a month.

GEORGE STONEY: Why was it put out?

JOHNS: And this is -- this is a six-room cottage on the corner here of Hinsdale and Peachtree.

GEORGE STONEY: Why was this pamphlet put out?

JOHNS: It was a public relation, to get workers to come to Dwight to work. It had cheap cost of living, good livin' conditions, good climate, and so forth. This is a boarding house that some of the workers boarded in. And this is the first public library in Alabama, called the Nickels Library. Right near...

M1: Judy? We're recording in here.

JOHNS: This is one...

JAMIE STONEY: Just start all over.

GEORGE STONEY: Judy? We can hear you. We're recording.

JAMIE STONEY: Guys, basta. OK, we're starting that again, please.

GEORGE STONEY: Sorry.

JOHNS: OK, this is a public relation, uh, pamphlet, that Dwight Manufacturing Company put out to entice workers to come work. This is the...

GEORGE STONEY: I'm sorry, start again. The date is very important.

JOHNS: Oh. OK, this is, uh, a pamphlet that Dwight Manufacturing Company put out to entice workers to come to work. This pamphlet was possibly published in 1912. This is about the location where, uh, the Dwight Mill was located in Alabama City, which was halfway between Gadsden and Attalla in the center of Etowah County in northeast Alabama. This is about the drinking water, where they were plenty of springs and good drinking water to be found. And this is one of their three-room cottages that the workers could rent for three dollars a month. This is a four-room house for four dollars a month with a painted fence around it. Notice this is a six-room house for six dollars a month with a painted fence around it, and the houses were not (inaudible) but they had lattice work underneath each -- each of the houses.

GEORGE STONEY: Who lived here?

JOHNS: Uh, this is where the Cox's family lived, they was three families of 'em. They was Tom Cox and, uh -- and uh, Faye [Victory?] and, uh, Mamma Cox and Papa Cox, and Burns Cox. This is about the cost of the livin' and stores and supplies. You could buy -- the cost of living was real reasonable here, and the stores was plentiful, and the supplies was plentiful here in Alabama City. This is the boarding house that some of the workers boarded in while they was working. You could board here for about three dollars a week. This is the first public library in the state of Alabama -- the Nickels Library, located between Dwight and Calvert Avenue.

GEORGE STONEY: Who was Nickels?

JOHNS: Nickels was, uh, one of the first ones to come here to -- to build the mill. He -- he got killed pretty soon in -- in -- in putting the mill up, and he was one of the owners that came out of Massachusetts to start Dwight Manufacturing Company in Alabamy City. This is Winona Street, and this is 00:23:00Hinsdale Street -- notice the streets are [churded?] and the -- and the curbs are stone, and the sidewalks are churded. And -- and that way [Lon?] Jackson he, uh, -- he was a good construction worker, and -- and there were not any muddy streets, I mean the rain would go off, it was surveyed good. And this is about the schools, and they were only two schools at this time, that was the Alabama City Junior High School on Lakefront, and the Dwight Grammar School between Dwight and Calvert Avenue. And this is the first picture of when the Dwight school was built, this was a four-room school. I didn't go to this school, myself, it was before my time. It was added on to. This is the interior of the Dwight Baptist Church, it's a mistake on saying Union Church, this is the Dwight Baptist Church, the interior. And this is about the free library, it stayed open hours that, uh, all workers could take advantage of -- 00:24:00of the Nickels Library. And this is the interior of the Nickels Library.

GEORGE STONEY: Did you ever go there?

JOHNS: As a child I went there just a few times. I generally went to the library in -- in the school. And this is, uh -- is the lodge hall that was over, uh, the drug store on -- on Dwight Square. And this is part of Coolidge Circle, this is where five streets existed, and you can see the library in the center of this picture. And this is where the union church was -- this is where five denominations met until they removed this church and -- and the other churches built their own churches. And this is about the city government, they was -- had a mayor and four aldermans. And [only mayors that I knew?], I understand the first one was William [Gardiner?] and the only two that I knew in 00:25:00the '20s and '30s was Dr. R.A. Burns and Raymond Morgan.

GEORGE STONEY: Your father.

JOHNS: And my father was alderman at the end of, uh, the city. This is about the recreation parks, and they really had the recreation parks. We -- we could play in front of the scout cabin, we even had a ball diamond in the cow pasture, and we had Dwight park, which the -- the professional baseball it was played in. This is more of the recreation park that was right there on the square, and it had bandstand and everything where the bands played and -- and entertaining people. And they had a brass band, and this tells all about the brass band. And this tells about the baseball at Dwight Park, where they played in the Georgia Alabama League, and where they had their own team -- Dwight had a terrific team of their own. And every Saturday afternoon, they'd play -- every Saturday. And that's where most of us spent our Saturday afternoons, was at Dwight Park.

GEORGE STONEY: Could we move that over? Sorry. Let's move it over so we can see the...

JOHNS: The Dwight team? This is a picture of the Dwight team in about 1912. And this is a picture of the field itself, and you can see the outfield fence which, uh, the Black Creek is just beyond that fence. This is Dwight in action, and this is about the bathhouse, and I ne -- I've been in the bathhouse, but I never went actually swimming in the lake itself. This was at one end of the lake that surrounded the mill. And this is a picture that -- it was a walkway that did go around there -- this is picture of the bathhouse, and my brother has been in swimming in this bathhouse, and it was floored -- I mean, it was a wooden floor for the -- for the -- for the ground. But I was too small to go in this bathhouse before they turned -- they tore it down by the time I got old enough, and you had to swim. Now, this is the lake itself, and right, uh, in between -- the lake was split in half, and some of 'em that lived in Hinsdale in that part of the mill village could go into the mill across this, uh, center 00:27:00walkway that they had. And on -- on this lake well, uh, at certain times of the season, they had what we call die dappers, and I used to go up there with a BB gun and shoot these die dappers. This is the bowling alley, I never had the privilege of bowling in this bowling alley, but a lot of people that I knew did tell me about bowling in this Dwight Bowling Alley. It was near the coal gate in the western part of the mill. This is about Dwight Hall and entertainments. In Dwight Hall -- that's the bowlin' alley itself. Dwight Hall they had concerts, church services, revivals, all kind of entertainment. The Dwight Manufacturing Company's cotton mill, it's gonna be a picture of the mill itself. Now, this is a good picture, and it's really showing you the walk that I tell you about in the middle of the lake, where they could go across this 00:28:00walk here to go into the mill to work. This is the front office, this is where all the clerical work was carried on, completed. And you could go in at that gate, too. There was a front gate we called it. This was the agent house, and only three agents that I knew was [Allen?] Little, and, uh, Charles [Moody?], and Thomas [Cousin?]. They were others but I didn't remember. And of course this is, uh, a picture of the superintendent's residence. They had residence for the agent, and they had residents for the superintendents. And this is a picture of the famous Noccallula Falls, many legends has been written about Noccallula Falls. And this is another picture on a spring day on the lake bank. And I -- I never had a real smoking habit, but the first cigarette I ever 00:29:00smoked was, uh -- I learned to roll a Golden Grain on the lake bank like that fella was sitting there. This is a excursion boat on the Coosa River, and some of the families that came to Gadsden was enticed by this excursion boat that some of them had to ride railroad, and then ride excursion boat, and then had to ride a horse and wagon to get to the mill village to work (laughs). Now this is what we call a Clayton Mill -- grist mill. And down below this grist mill were all of the nominations of churches and, uh, Alabama City would hold baptize -- baptisms in this pond here. They call it Clayton's Mill pond.

GEORGE STONEY: OK, now finally, Jamie, is that section that you read. Where is...

(break in video)

GEORGE STONEY: OK?

JAMIE STONEY: Can do better than that.